[HN Gopher] Review of the Kinesis Advantage360 Professional
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Review of the Kinesis Advantage360 Professional
Author : farslan
Score : 72 points
Date : 2022-10-22 18:57 UTC (4 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (arslan.io)
(TXT) w3m dump (arslan.io)
| perrylaj wrote:
| I entertained buying the advantage (maybe 2?) before ultimately
| buying a keyboardio model 1. The main things I didn't like about
| the advantage was the fixed geometry and small/awkward function
| keys. Had this been out, it would have been strongly considered,
| looks like it addressed my primary concerns.
|
| That said, I loved the keyboardio so much that I recently
| received the updated model 100, and love it more than the
| original. The hot swappable switches are great, and the layout is
| really efficient for me (admittedly, took a frustrating few weeks
| to get proficient).
|
| Knowing what I do now, I'd personally choose the keyboardio 100
| over the kinesis 360, but I'm glad there is another flexible high
| quality split kb on the market.
| danieldk wrote:
| I recently switched to the Advantage 2 (after trying the Kyria,
| Ferris, and Freestyle Edge). And now I feel that there is no
| way back after having experienced the Advantage's key wells.
| They are just fantastic. So, I think from now on, the Advantage
| 2/360, Dactyl, and perhaps Glove80 are the only options for me.
|
| I don't really use function keys, but if I did, I'd just map
| them to the second layer.
| ttarr wrote:
| Hi, Can you please tell me if the fun key (big roundish key)
| gets in the way when typing?
|
| I really want one, but I'm not sure, I like resting my palm
| when typing.
|
| Also, are the wells well curved/deep? I can't tell from static
| images on the web.
|
| Thanks.
| nixlim wrote:
| I used kinesis advantage for about two months. Ended switching to
| Ultimate Hacking Keyboard and have never been happier - haven't
| switched the keyboard since - about 4 years now. Coding on
| Kinesis was just such a pain in terms of usual keys - braces et
| all: weird, up down arrows: weird. I thought I would adjust after
| two months, but did not happen for me. YMMV
| ZeroGravitas wrote:
| The base has little screwholes, one on each half. Are they for a
| camera tripod style mount?
| sickcodebruh wrote:
| I've been an Advantage user for almost eight years and I can't
| imagine using anything else. I type with it on my lap and it
| feels perfectly comfortable so I probably won't rush to buy this
| model. But if I did, the portability would be an immediate win.
| The original Advantage is massive and its comfortable typing
| shape makes for an awkward size in backpacks. This would be a
| huge win for any Advantage user who likes to work from different
| desks.
| firefoxkekw wrote:
| Finally a split keyboard that looks professional, I been using
| the Ergodox EZ for a while and thanks to you I'm going to switch
| to the Advantage 360.
|
| The official adoption of ZMK is a total win.
| brenainn wrote:
| Looks good! A customizable split keyboard was one of the better
| investments I've made recently. No more hand pain after my work
| day.
|
| Retail options like the Kinesis and Moonlander are perfectly fine
| products, but there is also an abundance of (typically open-
| source) keyboard designs these days:
|
| https://github.com/diimdeep/awesome-split-keyboards
|
| https://golem.hu/boards/
|
| Note that anything that runs QMK and Pro Micro MCUs can generally
| be made wireless using ZMK and nice!nano MCUs.
|
| Be warned that it's a deep rabbit hole. Personally I use and
| really enjoy the TBK Mini:
|
| https://github.com/Bastardkb/TBK-Mini
| Symbiote wrote:
| I have a fork / remix of your first link, putting everything
| (and more) into a gallery view.
|
| https://aposymbiont.github.io/split-keyboards/
| orangepurple wrote:
| This post might nerd snipe you and destroy your life. Stop
| reading here. Keyboards are a rabbit hole but I spent at least
| a week of my life searching and trying out existing optimized
| layouts. Then I got fed up and tried to optimize my own
| keyboard layouts on my own corpora. All this snowballed once I
| realized how massive the ergonomic and RSI problems with QWERTY
| are.
| danieldk wrote:
| I went down the rabbit hole and came out realizing that the
| Kinesis Advantage2 is just a fantastic allround ergonomic
| keyboard. Kinesis has been at it for 25-30 years and seem to
| have a good idea of the trade-offs and have found an
| (probably local) optimum.
|
| I still like building keyboards as a hobby, it's a lot of fun
| (but expensive). But none have felt so good so far as the
| Advantage (which felt great from day one).
|
| I'd love to buy a 360, but the price is a bit steep...
| orangepurple wrote:
| If you pay attention to builds and commentary on them after
| completion a lot of people begrudgingly dislike the Dactyl
| Manuform layout because it is uncomfortable for them and awful
| to type on. That said I never tried one myself. Just be careful
| and don't assume it's automatically going to be good for you! I
| think the layout is parametric but who knows exactly how to
| adjust the parameters?
| badlucklottery wrote:
| > a lot of people begrudgingly dislike the Dactyl Manuform
| layout because it is uncomfortable for them and awful to type
| on
|
| Part of this is just the nature of ergonomic keyboards. Each
| one is usually solving a set of _very_ specific ergonomic
| problems. If you don 't have that set of problems it can be
| either a lateral move or even a regression in your
| comfort/pain level.
|
| My wrists are _fucked_ up from years of skateboarding and
| mountain biking. Going to curved key wells helped me a lot
| because it lets me freeze my wrists in a comfortable position
| and still hit keys far from the home row. And having a fully
| split keyboard helps me find those comfortable wrist
| positions easier. With those requirements, a split Dactyl was
| a good choice and worked out well for me.
| fsociety wrote:
| That was my experience. I went from an ergodox to a dactyl
| manuform and at first I found it great. But that went to good
| to decent. I did not jive with something about the curvature
| + layout, even though I could touch type at a good speed.
|
| I ended up switching to a moonlander and find it is more
| enjoyable. I also found it an improvement over the ergodox,
| because the clusters are more thought out and the tenting has
| less degrees of freedom so is easier to get just right.
| jzb wrote:
| I just want a fresh supply of the old Microsoft Natural Ergonomic
| keyboards from the late 90s/early 2000s, before they started
| using chiclet keys or mushy switches. (The model with a USB and
| PS/2 option.)
| pyrolistical wrote:
| I couldn't get used to this layout for programming.
|
| I'm all for moving the modifiers but I couldn't deal with moving
| of `, =, [, ]
| least wrote:
| It's mostly a matter of discipline to not run back to what
| you're comfortable with to get used to unusual layouts. They
| _will_ become second nature to you if you use them long enough.
|
| I am not suggesting that you _must_ do this, mind you. Just
| that you almost certainly could get used to it if you forced
| yourself to. The benefits of doing so may not be worthwhile,
| though.
| LAC-Tech wrote:
| I'd like to try a split keyboard, but I'm just going to come out
| and say it - I like numpads. I have mine set up to snap windows
| to different parts of the screen, and it's great.
|
| For whatever reason, moving my hand across a large keyboard
| feels... fine. More comfortable than pressing multiple modifier
| keys.
| jrockway wrote:
| Numpad is essential if you use software that takes advantage of
| it, like Blender.
|
| I made a split keyboard that put the num pad in the middle
| since that space is normally wasted, but it wasn't very nice to
| use. Neither of your hands appear from your gut, which is where
| it would need to be to use the number pad comfortably (and
| that's why traditional keyboards put off to one side). I just
| chord to get the number pad keys now.
|
| There are probably keyboards that put the number pad on your
| left. That might be the perfect match for a right-handed mouse
| user. (Left-handed mouse users have been happy for decades, I
| bet.)
| newaccount2021 wrote:
| fbdab103 wrote:
| No function keys is a complete deal breaker for me. I do not care
| about layers or whatever ergonomic arguments that arise. I want
| to be able to mash F5 and start the debugger whenever I need it.
|
| Also, $439 is a very stiff price. I thought my Freestyle Pro at
| ~$150 was already luxurious.
| farslan wrote:
| OP here. The function keys can be accessed via the FN layer.
| I've added new keymap images where you can see each individual
| layer. The old Advantage2's FN keys were not good, so they get
| rid of it. If you start using layers, you'll see that most key
| combos or keys are not actually that useful.
| orangepurple wrote:
| Layout layers are the future. Mapping more than three keys per
| finger is unergonomic. You want to switch between layers
| quickly with modifier keys actuated by your thumb. With this
| approach you can ergonomically access 204 symbols (34 (pads) *
| 3 (layers) * 2 (shift)) with 34 keys.
|
| Heck even three pads per finger is too much imo and I need to
| devote more research into two pad per finger layouts which rely
| on multi-pad press combos (stenography) to avoid using the
| bottom row and pinkies.
|
| Till then you'll probably catch me using MTGAP 30 on an ANSI.
| cbm-vic-20 wrote:
| The keyboard's firmware is very flexible- you can remap all of
| the keys, and also do things like "mod tap" or "layer tap"- for
| example, when I tap the backspace key (one of the thumb
| buttons), it sends a backspace. If I hold the key down, it puts
| they keyboard into a layout where I can more easily access the
| symbols used commonly in programming. I have the delete key
| (which is next to it in the thumb cluster) act as an extra Ctrl
| key when held down.
|
| https://zmk.dev/docs/behaviors/hold-tap
| least wrote:
| There's enough keys (including ones that aren't even really
| mapped) on the Advantage 360 Pro that you could use as a
| dedicated f5 key.
| jcpst wrote:
| I used to feel the same. So when I was looking for some relief
| and an ergonomic layout, I picked the X-Bows. It has fn keys
| and was a nice introduction into the non-standard layouts. It
| made a big difference for me.
|
| Then I picked up a keyboardio atreus. It took me a few weeks to
| get comfortable with it. But now using layers feels natural- I
| don't have to leave the home row!
|
| Having an F5 foot pedal would be fun...
| platz wrote:
| have you ever tried to mash F5 on the old kinesis advantage2
| without looking
| Findecanor wrote:
| The Advantage360 feels like Kinesis' answer to the DIY _Dactyl_
| keyboard -- which has a Kinesis-like layout, but which you would
| have to download, 3D-print, build and solder yourself. Being
| open-source (parametric SCAD), there are also a bunch of derived
| designs out there.
|
| <https://github.com/adereth/dactyl-keyboard>
|
| There is a PCB kit for the Dactyl to reduce the amount of
| handwiring:
|
| <https://bastardkb.com/product/flexible-pcb/>
| aliqot wrote:
| I use an ergodox, and while kinesis comes so highly recommended,
| there is always something about their design aesthetic that rubs
| me the wrong way, like the uncanny valley between utility and
| nintendo powerglove.
| Labo333 wrote:
| I got the Kinesis Advantage2 last year. I got used to it, almost
| reaching my laptop typing speed. But I actually don't find it
| super comfortable.
|
| To be honest, no keyboard matches the comfort of my macbook with
| the keyboard being under the level of the palms.
|
| I also more recently got the keychron K3 (low profile) and
| realized that the thing I don't like in the KA2 is my wrists
| being locked.
|
| I think it's not enough to consider a keyboard without a complete
| setup, including where the hands / arms will rest and where the
| mouse is positioned.
|
| For example even the distance of my laptop stand makes a huge
| difference because it affects how far my keyboard can be from my
| torso, hence whether where my arms rest on the table.
| wahnfrieden wrote:
| Glove80 is the leading current closest competitor for the 360
| imo, main diff being low profile v1 kalis
|
| http://xahlee.info/kbd/glove80_keyboard.html
| crazygringo wrote:
| There are exactly three main things ergonomic keyboards need in
| order to be correctly ergonomic:
|
| 1) Split (so the distance is adjustable for your body, depending
| on your shoulder width)
|
| 2) Two axes of adjustable tilt (sides tented down, far side
| angled down)
|
| 3) Palm rests for when not typing
|
| It's shocking to me how many ergonomic keyboards get the first
| two wrong -- they're not split, and/or the axes aren't adjustable
| at all or only one is.
|
| This keyboard is split (yay!) but appears to be adjustable only
| along one axis (boo).
| nextos wrote:
| Any recommendations for a keyboard that does everything well?
|
| I have found Microsoft Sculpt to be pretty decent. In
| particular, it has negative tilt which I think is the most
| ergonomic option. Build quality is not very good, though. And I
| would prefer a wired option for a lower latency. Also, I have
| heard they are no longer produced and they are just selling
| stocked items. Interestingly, I do not dislike their shallow
| keyswitches. I find them much less tiring in the long run, and
| I type much faster.
| tomduncalf wrote:
| If my Sculpt dies and I can't replace it (a useful thing to
| know is they have a 3 year warranty, in the UK at least, so
| when a key inevitably fell off my last one I was able to get
| it replaced for free! I didn't realise the warranty was this
| long previously and just bought another), I might try the
| Logitech K860. Looks nice, though I'd rather not have the num
| pad.
|
| This Advantage360 looks pretty great but I wonder how easy it
| will be to ship to the UK, when I last looked into these more
| bespoke keyboards it was a bit of a hassle and increased the
| price significantly.
| ideamotor wrote:
| A keyboard tray would offer the additional axis of tilt. But
| my keyboard tray's depth does not fit my kinesis advantage2
| and I doubt it would fit this. And I bought the largest tray
| I could find.
| wahnfrieden wrote:
| mount them on adjustable mic grips/extenders to your chair
| or desk
| User23 wrote:
| Another obvious thing that few keyboards get right is to use
| the thumb in opposition to the fingers. Practically that means
| chords should involve the thumb and another finger. The Kinesis
| thumb keys aren't bad for this.
|
| Anyone wanting to design a keyboard or even just remap an
| existing one should read John Napier's excellent book Hands[1].
|
| [1] https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/1082840.Hands
| tazjin wrote:
| All three of these are dwarfed by key wells (i.e. do the keys
| sit in an indentation, or do you have to tilt your wrists
| upwards?) for me. It's always subjective.
| crazygringo wrote:
| No, it's not subjective at all.
|
| It's actually entirely objective, in terms of the amount of
| tension you need to hold in the muscles connected to your
| shoulders, elbows, and wrists. You're looking to maintain a
| neutral position in all of those, to minimize tension there.
| There's nothing subjective whatsoever about that, tension is
| very observable.
|
| Second, I would very much push back on key wells for the
| general population. Adjustable tilt forwards on a flat
| keyboard achieves everything you need for neutral wrist
| position and relaxed fingers, so that you're always typing
| slightly "downwards". Key wells try to accomplish a weird
| goal of holding your arms/hands in a fixed position and
| typing with just your fingers, instead of typing with your
| whole arm floating in an integrated shoulder-to-fingertip
| movement. If you have some kind of arm movement
| problem/disability then concave wells might be the best
| solution, but for the general population the wells are _more_
| awkward to use in the upper rows of keys, increasing the
| forearm tension which controls the fingers. (As a general
| rule, tension is usually minimized overall by distributing
| work across as many muscles as possible that involve longer
| muscle trains, rather than localizing work in shorter areas.
| That, for example, is why people say to lift with your back,
| not with your arms.)
| tazjin wrote:
| This is why I'm telling you this is subjective, as much as
| you'd like to reduce it to some "objective" criteria. I
| broke my wrist a few years ago, and since then typing on
| anything without key wells is a bad idea.
|
| I've seen too much advice like yours leading to people with
| some specific problem going "but I'm doing everything
| _correctly_ , how am I still experiencing problems?!".
| gtsteve wrote:
| This looks excellent, but I was hoping for something other than
| Bluetooth.
|
| I have sworn by Logitech wireless accessories for years because
| of their integrated wireless which presents to the OS as a
| regular USB device driver, so I can use the accessories in BIOS,
| during OS installations, etc without any hassle.
|
| I also like the Logitech USB dongles because I find the Windows
| Bluetooth keyboard support to be very much a second class
| citizen, with slow performance and the keyboad noticeably lags
| both randomly and when the system is under load, unlike a USB
| device.
|
| This got me wondering if there was some solution for this, such
| as having a Bluetooth keyboard communicate with another piece of
| hardware that replayed the inputs as USB. Or perhaps Windows has
| upped their game in the couple of years since I last tried a
| Bluetooth keyboard?
|
| I know on Mac it just works (tm) but sadly I cannot escape
| Windows at work at the moment.
| azinman2 wrote:
| Sounds like you can always just plug it in as well. I've heard
| lots of stories of the Logitech stuff causing interference (I
| think it's 2.4ghz IIRC?), and then you also need a dongle. I
| understand your windows needs (versus say a laptop), but why
| not just be wired when you need to access the bios?
| alxlu wrote:
| I've been enjoying this keyboard a lot as well. Unfortunately, it
| seems to randomly keep waking up my MacBook every several minutes
| and the only fix I've been able to find is to manually turn the
| switch off when I'm done using the computer.
|
| I'm also not a huge fan of having to charge both sides
| individually although so far the battery life seems quite good. I
| don't move my computer often and use a dock so it would be nice
| to be able to just leave it plugged in without worrying about
| battery, but doing that requires both sides to each have a cable
| plugged into a power source.
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(page generated 2022-10-22 23:00 UTC)