[HN Gopher] Hyundai suspending two US suppliers because of child...
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Hyundai suspending two US suppliers because of child labor
Author : gumby
Score : 356 points
Date : 2022-10-22 16:51 UTC (6 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.reuters.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.reuters.com)
| Yoofie wrote:
| The thing that gets me is the pathetic "punishments" that these
| companies get. $30k fine + some "training programs". Seriously?
|
| There need to be a minimum 5+ zeroes on top of the fine + jail
| time, or nothing will change.
| abeppu wrote:
| This really awful, but maybe it's also an indicator of the
| flattening effects of globalization?
|
| Not so long ago, the unthinkable thing wouldn't have been child
| labor in the supply chain of a big company, but we all would have
| expected it to be an American company with Asian manufacturing.
| Actually relatively recently, I had an executive from an American
| company express to me earnestly that child sweatshop labor helps
| grow local economies, and therefore it was misguided to condemn
| the practice. But it seemed implicit, in a condescending way,
| that that was justifiable for other people in other places.
| coinbasetwwa wrote:
| dev_tty01 wrote:
| >The locals out in Alabama are all drugged out.
|
| Geez. One visit and you are an expert. Totally off base.
| California is ranked 29th in drug use and Alabama is 41st out
| of 50 states.
|
| https://wallethub.com/edu/drug-use-by-state/35150
| such12 wrote:
| @dang - the title in editorialized and misleading. The actual
| title is: "Korean auto giant Hyundai investigating child labor in
| its U.S. supply chain"
|
| The article only mentions Korean owned suppliers operating in the
| US, some directly controlled by Hyundai, which were investigated
| by Alabama's state Department of Labor, in coordination with
| federal agencies.
| phnofive wrote:
| Please contact hn@ycombinator.com for Dan and co. As far as I
| can tell, they haven't even suspended these suppliers yet.
| Noumenon72 wrote:
| I think this is a relevant observation, given that it changes
| the emotive thrust of the headline from "foreign country has
| better standards than our country!" to "our country has good
| standards that ensure foreign investors don't end up employing
| child labor".
| tptacek wrote:
| Worth noting that one of these suppliers appears to have been
| majority-owned by Hyundai itself. The Hyundai subsidiary
| apparently targeted the families of recent immigrants.
| eunos wrote:
| Waiting for the sanctions...
| Pigalowda wrote:
| From article
|
| As Reuters reported, migrant children from Guatemala found
| working at SMART Alabama, LLC and SL Alabama had been hired by
| recruiting or staffing firms in the region. In a statement to
| Reuters this week, Hyundai said it had already stopped relying on
| at least one labor recruiting firm that had been hiring for SMART
| la64710 wrote:
| I hope the right agencies step in to help these kids ... brutal
| as it may be it just might be possible that the kids did not
| receive any assistance so this (working) was probably their
| only way of surviving.
| Jolter wrote:
| Since they were reported missing to the police, I would
| assume that you're right and these kids were trying to
| survive on their own for one reason or another.
| nonrandomstring wrote:
| I don't think it's "whataboutism" to point out that we're
| comfortable buying goods made with child labour so long as
| they're from another country - and that sets a moral bar for when
| it's done closer to home.
|
| Surely people remember those girls manufacturing Amazon and Apple
| products at Foxconn, about 14 years old, who tried to kill
| themselves by jumping off the roof, but Foxconn just installed
| nets to catch them and bounce them back onto the production line.
|
| EDIT: I found the entity investigaing the matter [1]. And also
| another story indicating that it may have been an internal
| whsitleblower who began the trail.
|
| [1] https://borgenproject.org/labor-exploitation-at-foxconn-
| chin...
|
| [2] https://www.cnet.com/tech/tech-industry/undercover-
| reporter-...
| WastingMyTime89 wrote:
| > I don't think it's "whataboutism" to point out that we're
| comfortable buying goods made with child labour so long as
| they're from another country
|
| We very much are not.
|
| Both the USA and especially the EU have stringent laws against
| importing goods produced using child labour. Companies put some
| serious efforts auditing their suppliers to ensure no child
| labour is used and every time they fail it becomes a major
| scandal (see Nike as an exemple).
|
| Actually the reason you know Foxconn employed 14 years old is
| because it was a major violation of child labour law and was
| widely reported as such. The Chinese state wasn't happy about
| that at all. I can assure they didn't go back to the production
| lines.
| nonrandomstring wrote:
| If you're trying to paint a picture of justice and the rule
| of law working all according to plan, I don't buy it.
|
| IIRC it was an undercover documentary I watched. Not sure who
| the team who made it were, and cannot find it on YouTube etc
| now. But I do not recall it being a labour audit team from
| Apple or Amazon. Both of whom I remember initially denied the
| claims, and then distanced themselves from Foxconn (while the
| story blew-over) before eventually admitting it much later
| [1]
|
| Of course we all know how such inconveniences are spun: it
| was an "isolated" incident. A few bad apples. Mistakes were
| made. The (scapegoat) managers have been fired. Lessons
| learned... etc.
|
| > I can assure they didn't go back to the production lines.
|
| On what basis do you make such "assurances"? Because I'm
| pretty sure you are wrong. For me, a most stomach churning
| aspect of that whole story was the "soft torture" of the poor
| kids who were not even able to end their ordeal by suicide.
| The anti-suicide nets were the company's response _instead_
| of changing the awful working conditions.
|
| Quite beyond belief.
|
| They were designed to catch the workers, who could then be
| given "counselling" (presumably advice on what would happen
| to their families if they tried that again) and then returned
| to work as soon as possible.
|
| [1] https://www.industryweek.com/talent/labor-employment-
| policy/...
| WastingMyTime89 wrote:
| > If you're trying to paint a picture of justice and the
| rule of law working all according to plan, I don't buy it.
|
| Your original statement was that we, the collective west,
| are confortable buying the product of child labour as long
| as it happens abroad. This is clearly false. Not only are
| we uncomfortable doing so, we find the idea so abhorrent
| that we have made it illegal.
|
| > On what basis do you make such "assurances"?
|
| The CCP doesn't take people flaunting Chinese laws kindly.
|
| Also while the issue with underage interns was discovered
| during the probe on the suicides, they are unrelated
| events. The workers who killed themselves due to
| overworking and poor working conditions were all of legal
| age.
|
| Under age workers were provided as month long interns from
| vocational schools. Foxconn wasn't checking if they were of
| legal ages which made quite a splash.
| nonrandomstring wrote:
| > Your original statement was that we, the collective
| west, are confortable buying the product of child labour
| as long as it happens abroad. This is clearly false.
|
| I don't think it is "clearly false". And you've offered
| me no contrary evidence - although I cannot imagine what
| that would realistically be or that we can resolve this
| difference of opinion by appealing to the stated opinions
| of other groups.
|
| But "we" in this case is undefined.
|
| There is the "we" of PR executives, corporate lawyers and
| politicians, all of whom paint a party line on how "we
| are uncomfortable"
|
| And then there are the tens of millions of people who,
| knowing the reality of overseas child labour (through, as
| you say yourself, the widely reported news), still go out
| and buy an iPhone or Amazon Alexa.
|
| As far as I know neither Apple nor Amazon's sales were
| significantly hit by these revelations.
|
| There is a vast difference between the world as we wish
| it to be, and the world as it really is. I think you
| speak more to the former.
| WastingMyTime89 wrote:
| > I don't think it is "clearly false". And you've offered
| me no contrary evidence
|
| Obviously I have. First I have pointed to you that it is
| illegal. Secondly I have mentioned Nike to you. After the
| 1996 Life magazine report and the subsequent protest,
| they lost millions of dollars of sales and had to work on
| the issue significantly in the following years to save
| their image.
|
| You keep torpedoing your own argument yourself anyway by
| bringing up all the articles covering the issue which
| should show you people care.
|
| This conversation is over as far as I'm concerned. I'm
| impressed by the length you are ready to go to refuse to
| simply admit you are wrong.
| such12 wrote:
| jmclnx wrote:
| Well if this is true, seems to be another indicator of the US
| Race to the bottom. 40/50 years ago ,this would have been a big
| scandal in the US. Since a certain US president in the early 80s,
| seems the US has been slowly slipping into third world country
| territory. And the massive "defense" spending another indicator
| if this.
| Waterluvian wrote:
| For capitalism to work in the modern era, we need to make an
| example out of misbehaving companies every so often. Like...
| destroy the company and throw the officers in prison.
|
| I want shareholders so petrified of their stock suddenly being
| worth nothing that they keep the board in check who makes heads
| roll when this kind of bullshit is tried.
|
| Everything less is a tacit acceptance that child labour is fine
| as long as you factor the cost into doing business.
| dirtyid wrote:
| Were they at least paid?
| snake_doc wrote:
| Forced labor is legal in the US in one case. Where's the outrage?
|
| https://www.aclu.org/sites/default/files/field_document/2022...
|
| "Private companies benefit from prison labor by purchasing goods
| and services through correctional industries for a lower cost
| than they would pay in the private market. Colorado Correctional
| Industries, for example, sold goods and services to around 100
| private companies, which generated more than $6.2 million in
| revenue for the state correctional industries program in 2020.
| Utah Correctional Industries sold goods and services to almost a
| thousand private companies, including such major corporations as
| 3M Company, Allstate Insurance Company, American Apparel,
| American Express, Apple Inc., AT&T Mobility, Costco, Enterprise
| Rent- a-Car, FedEx, Frito Lay Inc., Fujifilm North America, Hertz
| Corporation, Hewlett-Packard, Hickory Farms, Infiniti Motor
| Company, Little Caesars Enterprises, Lowe's, KFC, OfficeMax,
| Pepsi-Co, Procter & Gamble, Sara Lee Corporation, T-Mobile,
| Verizon, and Xerox Corporation."
|
| "Alabama, Arkansas, Florida, Georgia, Mississippi, South
| Carolina, and Texas pay zero compensation to incarcerated people
| for the vast majority of work assignments."
| throwawaysleep wrote:
| Outrage at what? Trash people being used for something
| productive and covering the cost of dealing with them?
|
| The only change should be that the prison charges market rate
| for their labour.
| curiousgeorgio wrote:
| If you're incarcerated, you've forfeited a lot of other rights
| too. That's by design, and I happen to have the "extreme"
| opinion that incarceration _should_ be punishment[1] rather
| than a cushy lifestyle. I 100% support forced labor ( _not_
| cruel treatment or abuse) of the incarcerated.
|
| [1] To clarify: there should be an element of punishment (in
| the form of forgone rights), but there's obviously more to it.
| seer wrote:
| Well I might be out of the loop but wasn't "punishment"
| proven to be ineffective in preventing (or correcting)
| unwanted behavior.
|
| No matter how harsh is the punishment there appears to always
| be crime. What seems to work is rehabilitation as well as
| inevitability of capture.
|
| So even if it sounds unjust to try to help offenders (even
| murderers) If we want them to not offend and not murder
| _more_ we need norway style prisons rather than US ones.
|
| Regardless of what's effective and what is just though,
| having prison companies benefit from forced labor is just all
| ways of crazy regarding incentives and screws the market soo
| much, normal people now need to compete against slaves, the
| state / companies now have incentives to there to be _more_
| prisoners which would lead to actually _more_ crime in and
| off itself.
|
| And to top it off, you have big entities that can lobby
| (bribe) the government to change laws to the detriment of
| society at large. It just sooo messed up.
|
| And its not some crazy tinfoil hat thing - we can see that
| "experiment" play out before our eyes - the US penal system
| is so proven to be so ineffective its silly.
| TheFreim wrote:
| I would generally agree. Just as some people characterize
| prison labor as "slavery", with all of the connotations that
| word holds when unqualified, I have also seen incarceration
| described as "kidnapping". Rather than get bogged down in the
| minutia of arguing about words I'd simply posit that there
| are moral forms of "kidnapping" and "slavery".
|
| Locking a murderer in a jail cell is moral, I also see no
| issue requiring them to work.
|
| Where I do see a massive issue is when incarceration is used
| by private corporations to enrich themselves rather than
| enriching the public or individuals whose harm is what caused
| the incarceration in the first place.
|
| I don't in principle oppose private prisons, though I am wary
| of them in practice. I think there could exist a model where
| private prisons would be rewarded based on recitivism, but
| unfortunately such a system would be hard to create for a
| variety of practical considerations.
| moistly wrote:
| > I also see no issue requiring them to work.
|
| It takes away a job that someone who is not a criminal
| could be doing.
| manholio wrote:
| In other times it was said that a woman takes away a job
| a man might to, or a black man the job a white. You may
| want to google the "lump of labor fallacy".
| scatters wrote:
| How do you compel unfree labor without torture?
| moralestapia wrote:
| You can get out 10 years from now, or 5 years from now,
| your choice.
|
| Something like that.
| scatters wrote:
| Then it's not unfree; it's voluntary in return for time
| off a sentence.
| curiousgeorgio wrote:
| Believe it or not, a huge number of incarcerated people
| would rather work (without pay) than sit around doing
| nothing. For the few that don't, you can certainly
| incentivize it without resorting to torture.
| scatters wrote:
| If they want to do it, it isn't unfree.
|
| > you can certainly incentivize it without resorting to
| torture.
|
| How?
| bombcar wrote:
| And in fact, one of the common punishments available to
| prison staff is to _bar the prisoner from working_ if
| they are getting in fights, etc.
|
| The prisoners wouldn't mind working for more pay, but
| most of them do like it considering the options.
|
| Another part is just accounting - if the federal
| government paid its employees tax free (no fed income
| tax) it would work out the same (salaries would drop) but
| the accounting would be different and people would
| complain.
| manholio wrote:
| But why not pay them? Perhaps you cannot pay market wages
| without a being a competitive capitalist enterprise, but
| surely there is a point where access to subsidized labor
| allows you to break even, paying them, say $3 or $5 an
| hour.
|
| And perhaps you cannot pay them in cash, but why not
| invest the money for the duration of their incarceration,
| or pay a stipend to some dependent on the outside, like a
| wife/child? A $10k/year rate of savings is above what
| many people achieve outside, and a massive boost to get
| one's life in order once they get out.
| therealdrag0 wrote:
| Is it torture when you force kids to do their chores?
| Surely there are ways. But regardless don't a lot of
| inmates volunteer for work? How much is forced?
| scatters wrote:
| If it's voluntary it's not unfree, by definition.
|
| Children are motivated by love, respect and authority.
| Convicts are less likely to respond to those.
| LadyCailin wrote:
| Unless you're handing out life sentences for every little
| crime, the point of incarceration _must_ be rehabilitation.
| If you fail in that goal, then you're just putting the burden
| on future society, when they get back out in some years. Part
| of rehabilitation might include punishment, but when you
| start with that, rather than rehabilitation, you've already
| screwed up your national moral compass.
| curiousgeorgio wrote:
| Working without monetary compensation is the punishment
| part. But work itself _is_ rehabilitating. I can 't think
| of a better way to help people feel empowered and able,
| preparing them to be positive members of society when
| they're released.
| meheleventyone wrote:
| Then this should be supported by evidence that forced
| labor is rehabilitating. Show us it's true if it is.
| TheFreim wrote:
| > Unless you're handing out life sentences for every little
| crime, the point of incarceration must be rehabilitation
|
| I would take issue with the usage of the words "the point".
| There can in fact be multiple ends or goals of
| incarceration. Whether you think retributive justice or
| rehabilitation should be primary or secondary would be up
| for debate, but I primarily mean to say that you don't
| necessarily have to pick one or the other in the grand
| scheme of things (I'd say you'd also have a sliding scale
| of which is more important).
| newaccount74 wrote:
| Probably the best way to get a prisoner ready for life
| after prison is to let them work, pay them a normal salary,
| and let them put it in a savings account.
|
| That way they have enough money for a deposit to rent a
| place to live and can cover their expenses for some time
| until they find a job.
|
| If you force them to work, and don't give them money, then
| they have no way to start a normal life after prison, will
| depend on money from the government in the best case, and
| get back to crime in the worst case.
|
| We need to treat prisoners well. Not just because it's the
| morally right thing to do, but also because it's the best
| thing we can do if we want a society with low crime rates,
| where you can walk through the city at night without being
| scared that an ex-convict mugs you because they don't have
| any other options.
| s1artibartfast wrote:
| Possible goals for incarceration are:
|
| Punishment
|
| Deterrence
|
| Rehabilitation
|
| Protecting the general public
|
| You can debate the relative merits of each, but
| rehabilitation is not the only possible goal. If you lock
| up a repeat violent offender for X years without
| rehabilitation, the other factors are still relevant.
| seventytwo wrote:
| All you've done is a set up an incentive structure for the
| state or a corporation to shove a maximum amount of people
| into forced labor.
| Jolter wrote:
| Your supposedly "extreme" opinion sounds like a very
| mainstream American opinion. If you're implying that many
| people really think your opinion is extreme, I think you're
| making a straw man argument.
| lifeisstillgood wrote:
| There is outrage - just not enough
|
| https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kids_for_cash_scandal
| colechristensen wrote:
| I have zero problems with labor being part of a prison
| sentence, if done well.
| newaccount74 wrote:
| Prisoners should be paid for labor at the same rate as they
| would be paid outside of prison. The punishment is loss of
| freedom, not forced labor.
| throwawaysleep wrote:
| Sure, but then jack up the fines to account for the cost of
| keeping them.
| Dylan16807 wrote:
| I don't think it's reasonable to fine someone for the
| cost of imprisoning them.
|
| Taking 30% of wages for housing and some for food, maybe.
| But not a _fine_.
| stachetoverlord wrote:
| Should they not also pay for their food and housing, then?
| snake_doc wrote:
| Most prisoners are charged a per-diem for food and
| housing.
|
| https://www.npr.org/2022/03/04/1084452251/the-vast-
| majority-...
| therealdrag0 wrote:
| I think charging the same rate for labor makes sense so
| it's not anti competitive business. But why should the
| prisoners pocket all the money when our tax dollars are
| housing them?
| newaccount74 wrote:
| Prisoners did not choose to go to prison, therefore we
| can't ask them to pay for the costs of putting them in
| prison. Society decides that it is best to lock some
| people up; therefore it's also the society that should to
| pay the cost of keeping them locked up.
|
| Prisons are expensive, which is one reason why we should
| really only lock up people when there is no other way. If
| someone is not a danger to society, we shouldn't lock
| them up.
| therealdrag0 wrote:
| I see your point. Seems pretty subjective either way. For
| example, "I didn't choose for my car to be towed so the
| cost should be paid by the tower."
|
| But to some extent maybe it's moot because most prisoners
| would never be able to cover the full cost of their stay.
| I wonder though if there was a sort of coding-bootcamp-
| like profit sharing model with inmates where the gov
| tried to maximize their economic productivity they might
| end up getting trained for better and more humane jobs,
| trades, nursing, coding, winwin.
| dchftcs wrote:
| Um, you make it sound like prisoners are just helpless
| beings that have no agency and are fully passively pushed
| into a situation. Society didn't ask the prisoners to
| commit crimes either, but they (mostly) did anyway.
| Society has no choice but to impose a very unproductive
| form of punishment, and needs to find a way to get
| something out of it.
|
| The main reason to be against prison labor is that it
| creates perverse incentives to not rehabilitate prisoners
| (even though participation in labor may help with the
| rehabilitation process). There's also a risk that cheap
| prison labor undercuts legitimate businesses. Prisoners
| also can't be entrusted with anything outside menial and
| low-impact labor, and as a result the amount of
| productivity they can offer is really limited.
|
| But requiring prisoners to work partially for their own
| food and shelter in itself shouldn't be that
| controversial, especially when they are convicted of
| serious crime.
| YeBanKo wrote:
| Inmates are one of the largest workforce of CalFire when
| they need to deal with large forest fires. I don't
| CalFire would be able to scale up to the task if they
| didn't have this resource. Allegedly it is volunteer-
| based and you need to meet certain requirements and take
| training to participate. I'd say this kind of work is
| above low-impact.
| scarface74 wrote:
| So which society are you living in? Every statistic shows
| that minorities get much harsher sentences, are
| represented by an underfunded public defenders office,
| are coerced to plea bargain (95%) are harassed more by
| police etc. The entire criminal Justice system is corrupt
| to the core.
|
| Let's not even talk about the "War on drugs" that becomes
| "treat drug abuse as a medical condition" when it happens
| in "rural communities"
| meheleventyone wrote:
| > Society has no choice but to impose a very unproductive
| form of punishment
|
| No choice? That's pretty laughably untrue and flies in
| the face of all the evidence about incarceration being
| totally rubbish as a punishment.
| dchftcs wrote:
| Incarceration is not necessarily effective but what
| alternative can you propose, as a scalable form of
| punishment? How do you define "totally rubbish"?
| erikpukinskis wrote:
| Sure, as long as it's a reasonable rate for what they're
| getting. I wouldn't pay more than $300/mo to live in a
| tiny concrete room with shitty cafeteria food and no
| visitors. Maybe less.
| therealdrag0 wrote:
| Lol that's the daily cost per prisoner :)
| [deleted]
| s1artibartfast wrote:
| Because they have no option to tell their landlord to
| fuck off and go somewhere else.
| colechristensen wrote:
| I'm saying I'm fine with forced labor being part of the
| consequences.
|
| Like if you steal a car, six months working a shitty job
| while locked in prison seems appropriate. The money
| shouldn't go to you, it should go to defer the cost of
| catching, prosecuting, and housing you.
|
| We even have "community service" which is literally forced
| labor for zero compensation, are people unhappy with that?
| rhino369 wrote:
| >Forced labor is legal in the US in one case. Where's the
| outrage?
|
| That's like saying locking people in camps is legal in the US.
| Technical not a lie, but a bit misleading.
|
| Forced labor as a proportionate punishment for a crime you were
| found guilty of by a fair trial is not a problem in my book. We
| can talk about safety conditions, perverse incentives, whether
| the trials were fair or the punishments were just, etc. But the
| fact that we make a murder work 8 hours a day isn't per se some
| human rights abuse, in my opinion.
| cycomanic wrote:
| > >Forced labor is legal in the US in one case. Where's the
| outrage?
|
| > That's like saying locking people in camps is legal in the
| US. Technical not a lie, but a bit misleading.
|
| Actually labour as a punishment is called labour camps, it is
| generally frowned upon in the civilized world.
|
| > Forced labor as a proportionate punishment for a crime you
| were found guilty of by a fair trial is not a problem in my
| book.
|
| But the punishment is x years in prison not x years of forced
| labour.
| rhino369 wrote:
| The US certainly isn't the only civilized country to use
| penal labor. Regardless, I still wouldn't have a problem
| with it (done correctly).
|
| The average person is forced to work in one way or the
| other. Not sure why committing a crime is a get out of work
| (and into jail) card.
| meheleventyone wrote:
| Err... because it incentivises arresting and jailing
| vulnerable people in order to provide cheap labor. (done
| correctly) is doing a _lot_ of work.
| idontpost wrote:
| scarface74 wrote:
| > Forced labor as a proportionate punishment for a crime you
| were found guilty of by a fair trial is not a problem in my
| book
|
| Let's see all of the things wrong packed in that statement:
|
| 1. Most people in jail aren't "found guilty" of a crime by a
| trial at all. Most are pressured by both the DAs and the
| state funded Public defender to accept a plea deal. 95% take
| a plea deal.
|
| https://www.themarshallproject.org/2020/11/04/the-truth-
| abou...
|
| 2. Trials are rarely "fair". All of the statistics show that
| minorities get harsher sentences for the same arrest.
|
| https://www.opensocietyfoundations.org/publications/racial-d.
| ..
|
| 3. The state has unlimited resources. They rarely give enough
| funding to the public defenders office
|
| https://www.aclu.org/news/criminal-law-reform/if-you-care-
| ab...
| joecool1029 wrote:
| >But the fact that we make a murder work 8 hours a day isn't
| per se some human rights abuse, in my opinion.
|
| Eh, they don't do this with the actually dangerous criminals.
| Too much of a risk. Slavery usually used for nonviolent
| crims, think drug possession charges. Much easier captive
| population.
| snake_doc wrote:
| > Forced labor as a proportionate punishment for a crime you
| were found guilty of by a _fair trial_ is not a problem in my
| book.
|
| 97% of federal and 94% of state convictions are not convicted
| through a trial. They are convicted through plea deals. Plea
| deals function as the shadow justice system of the U.S. where
| prosecutors have overwhelming coercive advantages to shape
| the crime and punishment. They play judge and executioner.
|
| https://www.nbcnews.com/think/opinion/prisons-are-packed-
| bec...
| bombcar wrote:
| And the prisoners can refuse to work, what are they going to
| do, throw them in prison prison?
| snake_doc wrote:
| Yes, refusal to work leads to more punishments that border
| on human rights violations.
|
| > they are required to work or face additional punishment
| such as solitary confinement, denial of opportunities to
| reduce their sentence, and loss of family visitation, or
| the inability to pay for basic life necessities like bath
| soap.
| iinnPP wrote:
| Solitary confinement is already a human rights violation.
| It isn't close to the line, it's well over it.
| WastingMyTime89 wrote:
| Yes, the American system is extremely good at turning short
| sentences into long ones for petty things. That's very
| profitable for the prison industry.
| Jolter wrote:
| It's possible to be upset by both of these problems, and act to
| abolish both.
| colejohnson66 wrote:
| Not to mention that people here have complained about prison
| labor. It's just not brought up every day, but when it is,
| there's comments complaining.
| LtWorf wrote:
| All the free market lovers never mention how this is literally
| against the free market.
| guywithahat wrote:
| If you think free market economies have a problem with child
| labor wait until you read about closed market
| socialist/communist economies, they'll kick you out of school
| at 10 to work in rice fields
| WalterSear wrote:
| On the contrary: this is free market end game. A market that
| is not for sale is not a free market.
| timellis-smith wrote:
| Is it?
|
| I think true free marketers are about fair competition, and
| few would argue that legislation is necessary.
|
| Allowing one company to benefit by illegal behaviour
| distorts the market and thus goes against the principles of
| free markets.
| pbhjpbhj wrote:
| Really? "Fair" is not at all a free market concept.
| guywithahat wrote:
| It's the very definition of a free market concept. The
| price the market determines for something is the fair
| price, to charge more or less would be unfair to someone
| else
| Dylan16807 wrote:
| I don't know why you got downvoted for that.
|
| Fair competition is the ideal state for a market to be
| in, but a _free_ market is about _unrestricted_
| competition and that can easily turn into monopolies or
| cabals.
| phpisthebest wrote:
| Ok then, highlight all the times where a market has
| resulted in a monopoly with out underling government
| regulations limiting the ability of new entrants to the
| market.
| beiller wrote:
| I do believe government intervention has many unintended
| consequences but I'll take a stab at this. How about
| google search?
| phpisthebest wrote:
| I am a free market lover, and I absolutely reject the idea of
| forced, low or no pay prison labor
|
| I think all prisoners who voluntarily choose to work should
| be paid a market wage for their labor. I also think some of
| that wage should be used as compensation to the victims of
| their crimes.
| shagie wrote:
| As Labor Pool Shrinks, Prison Time Is Less of a Hiring
| Hurdle -
| https://www.nytimes.com/2018/01/13/business/economy/labor-
| ma...
|
| > Nearly every weekday morning for much of last year, Mr.
| Forseth would board a van at the minimum-security prison
| outside Madison, Wis., and ride to Stoughton Trailers,
| where he and more than a dozen other inmates earned $14 an
| hour wiring taillights and building sidewalls for the
| company's line of semitrailers.
|
| > After he was released, Mr. Forseth kept right on working
| at Stoughton. But instead of riding in the prison van, he
| drives to work in the 2015 Ford Fusion he bought with the
| money he saved while incarcerated.
|
| > Meghen Yeadon, a recruiter for Stoughton, found part of
| the solution: a Wisconsin Department of Corrections work-
| release program for minimum-security inmates.
|
| > Work-release programs have often been criticized for
| exploiting inmates by forcing them to work grueling jobs
| for pay that is often well below minimum wage. But the
| Wisconsin program is voluntary, and inmates are paid market
| wages. State officials say the program gives inmates a
| chance to build up some savings, learn vocational skills
| and prepare for life after prison.
| bluGill wrote:
| While those programs are easy to abuse, it is very
| important that someone released from prison has a path to
| an honest life. Few places will hire felons, so dumping
| someone on the street with no job ensures they turn to
| crime, it is the only way they can get food. If they have
| a job though you can arrange an apartment and other than
| a new place to sleep things seem normal and so they have
| a chance.
| seventytwo wrote:
| Then what you really love is a _regulated_ market.
| phpisthebest wrote:
| No, I am not sure how you believe forced prison labor for
| free or low wages is somehow a "free market"
|
| The Labor in this context is directly derived from
| government criminal codes, thus not disconnecting it from
| anything resembling a free market
| Natsu wrote:
| I think that a lot of people skip over the "except as a
| punishment for crime" part in the 13th amendment. I know I did
| for a long time until I saw a show where the prison warden was
| explaining it:
|
| > Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a
| punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly
| convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place
| subject to their jurisdiction.
| verall wrote:
| > generated more than $6.2 million in revenue for the state
| correctional industries
|
| Gosh it's so much suffering for such chump change too. Really
| sad.
| fritztastic wrote:
| Privatized incarceration facilities with incentives to keep
| people locked up, and influencing the CJ system to maintain
| profits is also an issue. There are numerous cases of
| businesses doing shady things to pocket more money.
|
| It is possible to be outraged by all these things at the same
| time. No one has to pick between different types of
| exploitation and only be mad at one thing.
| snake_doc wrote:
| I agree in principle. However, as a piece of empirical
| evidence, you can peruse the comments in this HN post.
| Compare comments that express outrage for child labor and
| outrage for forced prison labor. Some HN readers are clearly
| picking to not be outraged at the latter.
| mlindner wrote:
| I'm not sure why people are believing this. This is just China
| making up fake charges to offset what they're doing in Xianjing.
| lofatdairy wrote:
| Is this a troll comment?
|
| > Following the Reuters report, Alabama's state Department of
| Labor, in coordination with federal agencies, began
| investigating SMART Alabama. Authorities subsequently launched
| a child labor probe at another of Hyundai's regional supplier
| plants, Korean-operated SL Alabama, finding children as young
| as age 13.
|
| I can't tell if you're being serious, but you have two comments
| both casting doubt on this article so maybe you are. The
| article is reporting on investigations conducted by US
| authorities, so I suppose you imagine that the US is acting in
| the interest of China to weaken its own charges against China?
| knaekhoved wrote:
| 99% of "child labor" cases in the first world are actually
| completely reasonable. I'm glad I was able to break child labor
| laws as a kid - it was very helpful for my actual and perceived
| level of independence, was a great learning experience, and let
| me overcome meager material conditions.
|
| I think a lot of people here had soft lives as kids and
| extrapolate from that experience that kids are too fragile to
| handle working or something.
| jorblumesea wrote:
| >A Reuters investigative report in July documented children,
| including a 12-year-old, working at a Hyundai-controlled metal
| stamping plant in rural Luverne, Alabama, called SMART Alabama,
| LLC.
|
| > In a statement on Wednesday, SL Alabama said it had taken
| "aggressive steps to remedy the situation" as soon it learned a
| subcontractor had provided underage workers.
|
| It's hard to believe no one noticed 12 year olds working in
| manufacturing. It would be one thing if they were 17 and this
| were some legal technicality.
|
| Willful violation of the law and a "oops weird" cover up. The
| fine will likely be a fraction of the money they saved.
| citizenpaul wrote:
| >aggressive steps to remedy the situation
|
| Who wants to bet those aggressive steps will be.
|
| When our contract with the child labor ends we will put out a
| search for a replacement contract company. This time when we
| say "CHEAP CHEAP CHEAP Labor on the bid we will specify we
| don't mean "Child labor cheap" just regular old undocumented
| slave labor cheap.
| bombcar wrote:
| You might be able to clock 13 year olds from around you, but
| are you sure you can do it reliably for the entire world?
| maxfurman wrote:
| This article exists because Hyundai noticed, no?
| delusional wrote:
| Reuters investigating and publishing an article isn't what
| I'd normally describe as "noticing". That's closer to being
| told.
| jeffbee wrote:
| No, Hyundai noticed _after_ Reuters broke the story based on
| police sources four months ago.
| tyingq wrote:
| They noticed because of escalating local news coverage,
| probably:
|
| _" Reuters first reported on July 22 that allegations
| surfaced about SMART's labor practices after a Guatemalan
| girl reportedly working at the Hyundai-owned auto supplier
| went missing from her family's Alabama home."_
|
| https://www.fox6now.com/news/hyundai-subsidiary-allegedly-
| us...
| jeffbee wrote:
| Have you heard of Alabama before? The entire history of the
| state is based on importing and exploiting foreign workers.
| This is consistent with over 200 years of custom:
|
| "Reuters learned of underage workers at the Hyundai-owned
| supplier following the brief disappearance in February of a
| Guatemalan migrant child from her family's home in Alabama. The
| girl, who turns 14 this month, and her two brothers, aged 12
| and 15, all worked at the plant earlier this year and weren't
| going to school"
| _jal wrote:
| And modernized slavery in Florida (2002 article):
|
| https://www.tampabay.com/archive/2002/07/03/slavery-alive-
| in...
| healthandsafety wrote:
| moron4hire wrote:
| Incidentally, I was _just_ two days ago in Montgomery,
| Alabama at the Equal Justice Initiative 's museum documenting
| and memorializing the plight of enslaved people in the
| Americas. While not uniquely exploitative amongst all US
| states during the 2 century era of the legal slave trade, the
| post century of near complete lack of enforcement against the
| illegal slave trade, and the post half-century of
| transforming the slave trade into the prisoner-slave trade,
| this is true. Alabama--along with the other deep-South states
| --has been really bad about forced labor. I'd say it's more
| like 400 years of custom, with the first 150 years pre-dating
| the founding of the US, and the last 50 just being ignored
| because it's "only prisoners", with no introspection on just
| how those people became prisoners, or why what they did (or
| didn't even do) was considered a crime.
| dwater wrote:
| People in other parts of the US joke about how the deep south
| is backwards and give facts like the lack of quality
| education as examples, but fail to realize this is
| intentional. The working class in the deep south may be
| "backwards", but it's not by choice or culture. The people in
| power in those states intentionally create conditions that
| result in a permanent underclass who have no opportunity
| besides selling their manual labor and well-being for
| whatever pittance the capitalists deem. Slavery was outlawed
| but exploitation wasn't.
| orangepurple wrote:
| Slavery was never outlawed in the United States of America.
| Its government can still fully legally actually enslave
| prisoners.
| bombcar wrote:
| Is there an example of a government that has outlawed
| slavery without some sort of exception for prisons, etc?
| orangepurple wrote:
| Slavery is even legal in the EU according to European
| Convention on Human Rights Article 4 Paragraph 3.
|
| I love subparagraph (d) which is a wonderful catch-all in
| case a legal pressure relief valve is needed in the
| future to justify god knows what. Article
| 4 - Prohibition of slavery and forced labour 1
| No one shall be held in slavery or servitude.
| 2 No one shall be required to perform forced or
| compulsory labour. 3 For the purpose of this
| article the term "forced or compulsory labour" shall not
| include: a any work required to be done in
| the ordinary course of detention imposed according to the
| provisions of Article 5 of this Convention or during
| conditional release from such detention; b
| any service of a military character or, in case of
| conscientious objectors in countries where they are
| recognised, service exacted instead of compulsory
| military service; c any service exacted in
| case of an emergency or calamity threatening the life or
| wellbeing of the community; d any work or
| service which forms part of normal civic obligations.
| willnonya wrote:
| kache_ wrote:
| the world is a rough place
|
| there's all kinds of abuse going on, even without the child
| labour, in labour intensive jobs.
|
| man this sucked to read
| Animats wrote:
| Employee comments about jobs in that stamping plant.[1] Some of
| the comments are totally generic and probably fake. The ones that
| say twelve hour days for five to seven days a week are probably
| real.
|
| [1] https://www.indeed.com/cmp/Smart-Alabama,-LLC/reviews
| jmull wrote:
| Here's a link from the article to more information on the child
| labor violations:
|
| https://www.reuters.com/world/us/hyundai-kia-auto-parts-supp...
|
| (This links to more info.)
|
| Wow.
|
| I think the thing that shocks me the most is that the punishment
| from the Department of Labor is a very mild slap-on-the-wrist. A
| small fine and a promise not to do it any more. This should
| basically be the end of that company entirely. Instead they just
| have to point the finger at some low-level managers, fire them,
| and keep on rolling. I would think criminal charges are warranted
| for importing 12 and 13 year-olds for labor. The children can't
| consent. That's essentially child slave labor.
|
| If Hyundai/Kia drops them, that would at least be a much bigger
| penalty than the DOL imposed.
| legitster wrote:
| Part of the problem is that if the DOL goes after every
| underage worker in the economy, the biggest offenders by far
| would be family businesses and restaurants.
|
| It's all well and good to make parents send their kids to
| school. But at a certain point the punishments can exacerbate
| child poverty.
| lovich wrote:
| Working in a family business is protected. Even working as a
| 13-16 year old in some jobs is allowed as long as it's
| outside of school hours. We allow for a gradual introduction
| into working for children instead of a hard line at 18.
|
| What is not protected is working in an industrial factory all
| day. Hell I had a job at target when I was 17 and I was
| allowed to do anything other than operate the trash compactor
| as that was heavy machinery. A sweep of factories and other
| heavy industry for child labor is not going to exacerbate
| child poverty
| formerkrogemp wrote:
| > Working in a family business is protected. Even working
| as a 13-16 year old in some jobs is allowed as long as it's
| outside of school hours. We allow for a gradual
| introduction into working for children instead of a hard
| line at 18.
|
| Fun fact, tax breaks encourage this as long as you report
| the income, then some of the parents' income can be offset
| by the income that the child "earns" as that is tax
| deductible. Of course this is not financial advice and
| consult your own tax professional.
|
| > What is not protected is working in an industrial factory
| all day. Hell I had a job at target when I was 17 and I was
| allowed to do anything other than operate the trash
| compactor as that was heavy machinery. A sweep of factories
| and other heavy industry for child labor is not going to
| exacerbate child poverty
|
| Much of the labor lately in grocery and fast food has been
| underage or young workers.
| warbler73 wrote:
| dataflow wrote:
| > The children can't consent. That's essentially child slave
| labor.
|
| Minors can totally consent to labor; it's pretty common too
| (see: child actors). The issue with children working in
| factories is a (1) safety and (2) exploitation issue, not a
| consent issue--in fact even adult parents (who can presumably
| consent) aren't allowed to get exemptions for their children in
| some high-risk situations either. There are lots of exemptions
| for child labor though, especially in areas where safety and
| exploitation risks are deemed to be lower. Worth reading:
| https://www.dol.gov/general/topic/youthlabor/exemptionsflsa
|
| Edit to clarify (since some people seem to be reading this
| different): this isn't _my_ opinion, support, or opposition on
| what I believe children can or should consent to; I 'm just
| discussing labor laws here.
| largepeepee wrote:
| The point of saying children can't consent, is that they
| can't do it alone.
|
| You are just supporting OP's point unwitting.
| dataflow wrote:
| > The point of saying children can't consent, is that they
| can't do it alone.
|
| Yes they can, for some jobs. Not every job. I don't have a
| full list of which ones allow it and which ones don't, but
| it's not difficult to infer this if you look up the
| relevant laws and regulations, since they sometimes
| explicitly mention things like "minors _working until 11
| p.m. on nights before a school day_ are required to have
| written parental permission " [1], for instance.
|
| [1] https://www.dol.gov/agencies/whd/state/child-labor
| yieldcrv wrote:
| an exemption from a child labor _prohibition_ doesn 't equal
| consent
|
| the Department of Labor has an exemption for children
| _working in their parents business_ because that 's the only
| way they could get the _prohibitions_ passed, since _children
| cannot speak for themselves on the matter_ after recognizing
| that _children can 't legally consent to anything_ which is
| why there are prohibitions on the matter.
|
| what you are writing is a wild distortion of the concept of
| consent, that many people consider dangerous to harbor.
|
| there is legal consent restrictions (ie. even if someone says
| okay, its not valid), as well as societal consent
| recognitions such as when power dynamics are not in someone's
| favor and some extremes of that we don't allow to happen.
|
| even for things they are allowed to do autonomously, there
| are age restrictions on that.
| watwut wrote:
| It is parents who consent in case of child actors. And they
| end up being abused fairly often (and often by the very same
| consenting parents).
| tremon wrote:
| Can you cite the part where the law says that a minor can
| consent to labor? Every mention of "consent" in the link you
| gave only mentions "consent by the [minor's] parent or
| guardian" or similar phrasing.
| dataflow wrote:
| It's different across states. You can find a list (probably
| non-exhaustive) of where parental consent is required here,
| like the night before a school day in some states for
| example: https://www.dol.gov/agencies/whd/state/child-labor
| irusensei wrote:
| Welcome to current year. Its all good as long as the children
| been exploited are not the children of the people who vote for
| you. Its all green as long as the coal or oil burning is being
| done away from your borders.
| danans wrote:
| > Welcome to current year. Its all good as long as the
| children been exploited are not the children of the people
| who vote for you.
|
| That's been happening forever, not just the current year.
| Child labor sweatshops were a major source of industrial
| productivity for centuries the world over until relatively
| recently.
|
| Charles Dickens' novels turned it into an adjective in
| English bearing his name that described (among other things)
| the indifference of those in power to child labor.
| blacksqr wrote:
| They used the term "current year" because it can be
| repeated verbatim any year going back forever.
| danans wrote:
| That's not an English idiom that I've ever heard or read
| before. The lack of a "the" before "current" suggests
| it's a translation from a language that does not make
| compulsory use of articles. Perhaps it's an idiom in that
| language.
| anon_123g987 wrote:
| I've only ever read this on Hacker News, in the form
| "Welcome to _$current_year_! ", where $ is the scalar
| sigil in the Perl programming language, indicating that
| it's a variable, and should be substituted by the reader
| as necessary.
| selimthegrim wrote:
| Bracketing current year would have made it a little more
| comprehensible
| danans wrote:
| I agree. That would have changed the meaning completely.
| Spooky23 wrote:
| There's a reason why industry likes to pursue business in
| places like Alabama with awful infrastructure and education.
|
| Expenses for things like conversion of documentation to
| pictures instead of text (the workers are functionally
| illiterate) are one time, but you can pay someone $13/hr
| instead of $25/hr in a less regressive place.
| sgtnoodle wrote:
| When I worked with some NASA engineers from Alabama, I had
| trouble taking them seriously due to their accent! They were
| the ones getting stuff done, though. Statistically, Alabama
| ranks significantly better than California for both child and
| adult literacy. Are you perhaps a bit biased in your opinion
| of people from the south?
| treeman79 wrote:
| Lot of southern areas have massive differences depending on
| location. I life in an area that any hipster would love.
| Much of the rest of the state is hillbilly as can be.
| lupire wrote:
| This is a great example of Simpson's Paradox
|
| Split across racial lines, AL has lower literacy than CA
| among each of Whites, Hispanics, and Blacks.
|
| But because the literacy rate among whites is higher than
| Hispanics and Blacks, and Alabama is much more White than
| CA, AL's overall literacy rate is higher.
| knaekhoved wrote:
| Alabama is over 25% black, which doesn't do them any
| favors from a simpson's paradox perspective. CA is 40%
| hispanic, and hispanics fall in between whites and blacks
| on literacy, so I'd expect this to more or less come out
| in the wash.
| jprd wrote:
| oof. Own goal.
| octonion wrote:
| Not if you include literacy in any language e.g. Spanish or
| English.
| anon_123g987 wrote:
| You are shadowbanned.
| grzm wrote:
| They're not shadow banned: they were explicitly banned.
|
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31520597
| jnwatson wrote:
| Huntsville had the highest per capita Ph.D for a while due
| to operation paperclip.
| nootropicat wrote:
| >the workers are functionally illiterate
|
| This is a really bigoted comment that generalizes a whole
| state. If it would be racist for any random country, eg.
| 'Mexico' or 'Nigeria', why is it ok for an American state?
|
| (no, I'm not from Alabama).
| spoils19 wrote:
| Precisely. I've found that people from Alabama are actually
| more literate and intelligent than your most common worker
| from a blue state, it just depends on which aspects of life
| you find more important.
| ok_dad wrote:
| This isn't a red v blue issue, and we don't need to reply
| with tit for tat shaming of the "other side", it's a
| shame that any state has child labor or illiteracy. I
| have known a lot of smart people from all over, no state
| or country is better than another. The differences we
| have are cultural, not ability.
|
| (This comment is in response to this whole train wreck of
| a thread.)
| gunapologist99 wrote:
| > no state or country is better than another
|
| Even though I agree with the thrust of your argument, I'd
| just like to point out that this is provably inaccurate,
| depending on which quantifiable axis you're referring to
| as "better" (i.e., test scores, IQ, lead in the water,
| whatever.) But, if you're just saying "better" ==
| "humanity", then, sure, I agree with that too.
| datavirtue wrote:
| Sort of like Amazon's offensive stereotypical framing of
| Appalachia in Prehiprial?
|
| Clearly, no one would ever want to live there. Right,
| muffy?
| knaekhoved wrote:
| Alabama isn't bad because of its infrastructure or education.
| Here's a hint: if you condition on demographic
| characteristics (i.e. split state populations into obvious
| demographic categorizations), educational disparity across
| states is almost eliminated.
| np- wrote:
| Isn't that a pretty good reason why it's bad? Alabama is
| massively failing an entire demographic segment of their
| society, not even a small segment but something like 40% of
| it. That does seem like a massive infrastructure and
| education failure. Unless there is a deeper implication
| here that I'm missing.
| s1artibartfast wrote:
| >I would think criminal charges are warranted for importing 12
| and 13 year-olds for labor.
|
| Is there anything to suggest that they were actually
| trafficking humans? I think it is far more likely that they
| were illegal immigrants already in the States.
| duped wrote:
| Their parents were legal migrant workers as far as I have
| read.
| lupire wrote:
| Regardless, employing nonimmigrant children is also a crime.
| emodendroket wrote:
| I read an article in the New York Times maybe around ten years
| ago where some researchers called some labor departments to
| report child labor (it wasn't actually happening that they knew
| of; the point was to see how they would respond). They were
| basically uninterested and didn't follow up.
|
| In short, I'm less surprised but it is appalling.
| sammalloy wrote:
| This is apparently a common response. Check out Reveal's
| major investigative series on the punitive and profit-driven
| rehab industry which depends on unpaid labor. The government
| has done virtually nothing about it for 50 years.
|
| https://revealnews.org/american-rehab/
| hammock wrote:
| Unless there is enough behind it to become a viral news story
| (a photo, video, a document) there is little incentive for
| these authorities to act.
|
| For this reason, ensuring the freedom of whistleblowers,
| Wikileaks and others is so important. Without that, it
| becomes much easier for the authorities - which we trust our
| rights to - to do nothing and get away with it
| lupire wrote:
| Government only cares about crime against wealthy property
| owners.
| treeman79 wrote:
| California, Oregon, Illinois clearly do not. As businesses
| are fleeing in droves.
| faeriechangling wrote:
| I'be always wondered why kids can't consent to work but can
| consent to school.
| [deleted]
| s1artibartfast wrote:
| They don't have the choice of consenting to school or not. It
| is compulsory
| knaekhoved wrote:
| That is very clearly the GP's entire point.
| watwut wrote:
| But it failed, because kids don't consent to school. They
| don't have to go to school, but the decision is
| completely on parents. And when parents decide to
| homeschool or unschool, kids have no say either.
| [deleted]
| [deleted]
| decremental wrote:
| Kids can't consent to anything.
| matthewmacleod wrote:
| This is just wrong. There are lots of interesting
| discussions about how consent for people under the age of
| majority works, in which situations consent applies, and so
| on.
|
| In Alabama, for example, anyone over the age too 14 can
| consent to medical treatment.
| decremental wrote:
| matthewmacleod wrote:
| No, you are explicitly wrong - regardless of how much you
| might wish otherwise.
|
| It's fascinating that you then took this directly in what
| I can only assume is the current trendy anti-trans
| direction, given that this specific bit of law has been
| in place since 1975 and has obvious applications in lots
| of areas - maybe like ensuring that young people aren't
| denied medical treatment due to abusive parents.
| decremental wrote:
| That explains why this is such a sore subject here.
| Because if you believe children cannot consent then it
| would be unconscionable to mutilate them.
| tomrod wrote:
| That's nonsensical and blends legal consent and practical
| capacity for decisions. Most 12 year olds can tell you if
| they like orange juice with breakfast when asked if they
| want some. An affirmation is a consent.
|
| The 18th birthday is not a magical doorway.
| tremon wrote:
| _Most 12 year olds can tell you if they like orange juice
| with breakfast when asked if they want some_
|
| Now who's blending "legal consent and practical capacity
| for decisions"?
| decremental wrote:
| Wanting something is not consent. Kids can want all sorts
| of things and that doesn't demonstrate having a capacity
| for decision making.
| ravenstine wrote:
| So all of a sudden a switch flips on in the brain when
| you turn 18 that allows one to consent?
| BobbyJo wrote:
| I think parents point was that being 18 doesn't
| demonstrate said capacity either. Some kids are mature
| enough to make important decisions at 15, some kids can't
| make a good decision if their life depends on it at 25,
| so the blanket statements one way or another are
| obviously bad.
|
| We chose an age that made sense to us, because the law
| needs an objective anchor point, not a philosophical one.
| However, just because the age makes sense to us legally
| and socially, doesn't mean it's enshrined in natural law,
| and we shouldn't necessarily view it as such.
| decremental wrote:
| 15 year old brains are not fully developed. No 15 year
| old, however brilliant, has the capacity to consent.
| Though I agree 18 is an arbitrary cut off and it should
| be higher.
|
| Edit: Below I am replying to the reply to this comment
| here because apparently 5 posts in an hour and a half is
| enough to trigger rate limiting for me.
|
| Yes, that is too young to make that decision. You can
| throw any hypothetical, emotional situation at this and
| the answer will be the same.
| throwaway12245 wrote:
| Imagine you are 15 and your parents are struggling and
| you getting a full time job in the summer and part time
| job in during school would keep your younger siblings
| fed. That's "too young" to make that decision?
| BobbyJo wrote:
| All 15 year olds have the capacity to consent depending
| on the consequences of what they are consenting to.
| Should they be trusted to make life and death decisions
| for themselves? No. Should they be trusted to decide
| their lunch food? _Mostly_ , yes.
|
| Do I think _some_ 15 year olds are perfectly capable of
| deciding to work? yes. However, I think it 's prudent for
| us to ignore those few and assume not, simply because
| there is no universal test for competence, and the vast
| majority are not.
| mklepaczewski wrote:
| I don't think this is as clear-cut as you write. I'm not
| sure what the law is in other countries, but in Poland,
| minors can make transactions, i.e., purchase stuff. This
| assumes that minors can consent to certain things. The
| burden of making sure that the transaction is fair is on
| the adult, and the type and value of the transaction must
| be adequate for the minor's age. 7yo can buy bubble gum,
| 12yo can purchase a book, and 17yo can purchase $60+
| game. However, if an adult sells $400 laptop to 12yo, the
| parents of that 12yo can demand the seller to return the
| money to them without returning the product (ideally,
| they would return it), or return damaged product. The
| rationale is that 12yo cannot correctly handle such a
| valuable item, and the seller should've known better. I'm
| pretty sure the 12yo would not even need a receipt for
| the laptop - after all, the seller might not have given
| it to them (of course, some kind of proof would be
| needed).
|
| I assume similar laws exist in other countries, and hence
| societies recognize the capacity of minors to consent to
| some things.
| recursive wrote:
| Are you under the impression that only consenting kids are
| required to go to school?
| lovich wrote:
| We still allow slave labor in general in the US[1] and farm
| labor for 13 year olds. That's not to defend this practice but
| to point out it's not as big an ethical leap for someone
| already observing situations close to this and rationalizing it
| as just pushing the envelope a bit in their mind.
|
| [1]see the text of the 13th amendment and how private prisons
| operate if you are one of the 10000 today whose just learning
| this
| lostlogin wrote:
| > We still allow slave labor in general in the US[1]
|
| Also see prison labour.
| [deleted]
| inetknght wrote:
| > _the thing that shocks me the most is that the punishment
| from the Department of Labor is a very mild slap-on-the-wrist._
|
| What do you expect from the same Department of Labor that
| continues to operate in favor of big businesses instead of
| actual labor?
| kennywinker wrote:
| To the casual eye those are two distinct issues. Child labour
| is like a child protection thing, and labour protection is
| like a commie socialism thing.
|
| I'm no expert, but these things are historically intertwined.
| The fact that we even have laws against child labour is a
| product of 1930s labour organizing.
| neither_color wrote:
| _SL Alabama told Reuters in a statement that a staffing agency
| had furnished some employees to the plant who were not old
| enough to work there. SL said it had cooperated with
| regulators, terminated its relationship with the staffing firm,
| agreed to fines and other corrective actions, and replaced the
| president of the facility._
|
| It sounds like JK USA will rightfully be destroyed by this. If
| it really was just a handful of kids employed by a sub sub
| contractor I don't see why everyone in the whole factory should
| lose their livelihoods. The parents need some counseling and a
| stern scaring too but I wouldn't push too hard on a family
| desperate enough to send their kids to a factory.
| warbler73 wrote:
| lettergram wrote:
| > The parents need some counseling and a stern scaring too
| but I wouldn't push too hard on a family desperate enough to
| send their kids to a factory.
|
| I started mowing lawns at 12. Pretty heavy machinery; massive
| spinning blade, could lose an arm! Luckily I had that
| opportunity, I was able to make money and pay for clothes.
| Learn responsibility, self-respect, etc.
|
| I do think child labor laws are there to protect children.
| However, we don't know the circumstances and I think in
| _most_ cases child labor laws do more harm than good. Here
| are some important details:
|
| > In a separate statement on Tuesday, Alabama's state DOL
| said it had levied around $35,000 in total in civil penalties
| on SL Alabama and JK USA, a temporary labor recruiting firm.
| JK USA employed five minors between the ages of 13 and 16 at
| the plant, the state DOL said.
|
| https://www.reuters.com/world/us/hyundai-kia-auto-parts-
| supp...
|
| To me, it could be as simple as a few guys brought their kids
| who wanted to make an extra buck. They could have just been
| picking up metal scraps. We don't know. What I can say is in
| high school I knew multiple people whos family worked in
| metal works and the kids would help out and get paid. Some
| kids were as young as 10, but everyone was safe and it
| appeared to be in everyone's interest
| somerandomqaguy wrote:
| https://law.justia.com/codes/alabama/2020/title-25/chapter-
| 8...
|
| --------------------------------------
|
| (a) No individual under 16 years of age shall be employed,
| except in agricultural service, and except as otherwise
| provided in this chapter. Any individual 14 or 15 years of
| age may be employed outside school hours and during school
| vacation periods, so long as the individual is not employed
| in, about, or in connection with, any manufacturing or
| mechanical establishment, cannery, mill, workshop,
| warehouse, or machine shop or in any occupation or place of
| employment otherwise prohibited by law. The presence of any
| individual under 18 years of age in any restricted business
| establishment or restricted occupation shall be prima facie
| evidence of his or her employment in the business
| establishment or occupation.
|
| (b)(1) This section does not apply to an individual 14
| years of age or 15 years of age when both of the following
| are true:
|
| a. The individual is enrolled in either a youth pre-
| apprenticeship program, youth industry-registry
| apprenticeship program, or similar program in which
| employment and work-based learning are an integral part of
| the course of study.
|
| b. The program the individual is enrolled in is registered
| by the Alabama Office of Apprenticeship.
|
| (2) This section does not apply to employment procured by
| an individual 14 years of age or 15 years of age when the
| employment is supervised through the Alabama Department of
| Education and approved by the Alabama Department of Labor.
|
| --------------------------------------------
|
| Doesn't sound like those rules were followed. And I assume
| that the restrictions is mostly because heavy equipment
| like metal presses fail safe like a lawn mower does.
| WastingMyTime89 wrote:
| Most sane countries in the world allow adolescents to work
| some time when school is not on or when doing an
| apprenticeship. Most don't legally consider a kid mowing
| lawns for a stipend labour.
|
| There is a pretty major difference between that and doing
| work for an auto supplier while being staffed by a temp
| agency.
| warbler73 wrote:
| [deleted]
| diordiderot wrote:
| The children were trafficked
| detaro wrote:
| source?
| shagie wrote:
| https://www.al.com/news/2022/07/alabama-hyundai-supplier-
| chi...
|
| > The story of the children came to light following the
| February 3 disappearance of a 14-year-old Guatemalan
| migrant child in Alabama, the news service stated.
|
| > According to Reuters, the child and her two brothers,
| aged 12 and 15, all worked for the plant. After the
| publicity generated by the February disappearance case,
| SMART reportedly dismissed several underage workers,
| according to former employees.
|
| https://www.reuters.com/world/us/exclusive-hyundai-
| subsidiar...
|
| > The girl, who turns 14 this month, and her two
| brothers, aged 12 and 15, all worked at the plant earlier
| this year and weren't going to school, according to
| people familiar with their employment. Their father,
| Pedro Tzi, confirmed these people's account in an
| interview with Reuters.
|
| > Police in the Tzi family's adopted hometown of
| Enterprise also told Reuters that the girl and her
| siblings had worked at SMART. The police, who helped
| locate the missing girl, at the time of their search
| identified her by name in a public alert.
|
| ----
|
| Trafficked isn't the right word to use for the work (her
| disappearance may have been a case of attempted child
| trafficking - I haven't found anything yet on the
| specifics of the disappearance and it is likely more
| difficult because she is a minor). There are, however,
| issues with undocumented and poorly documented workers
| and their children not getting the proper public and
| social services (school for children being part of the
| public services).
| detaro wrote:
| Did you also not register for school because you were
| mowing lawns the entire time? Or is that maybe not quite
| the same thing as what's described here?
| lettergram wrote:
| Did I miss something? Was that the case here?
|
| I personally worked like 20-30 hrs a week and went to
| school as well lol
| detaro wrote:
| From the original reuters report (linked from the
| article):
|
| > _The girl, who turns 14 this month, and her two
| brothers, aged 12 and 15, all worked at the plant earlier
| this year and weren 't going to school, according to
| people familiar with their employment. Their father,
| Pedro Tzi, confirmed these people's account in an
| interview with Reuters._
|
| [...]
|
| > _Pedro Tzi 's children, who have now enrolled for the
| upcoming school term, were among a larger cohort of
| underage workers who found jobs at the Hyundai-owned
| supplier over the past few years, according to interviews
| with a dozen former and current plant employees and labor
| recruiters._
|
| > _Several of these minors, they said, have foregone
| schooling in order to work long shifts at the plant,_
| watwut wrote:
| If the company framed it as a homeschool plus internship,
| there would be no issue for them.
| smileysteve wrote:
| > The parents need some counseling and a stern scaring too
|
| The kids were reported missing to police, which is why they
| were found.
| nimbius wrote:
| controversial opinion but as an american our civil war
| concluded in 1865 with a collective surrender of the
| confederacy yet no meaningful regime change, which
| effectively enshrined a conglomerate of failed antebellum
| states which persist to this day as a racist,uneducated,
| obese, near dictatorial facsimile of a every modern failed
| nation in the underdeveloped world. We just collectively
| ignore these fifteen states which regularly fail to provide
| even basic public services or interact with other states as a
| full member of the union until a mass shooting forces us to
| acknowledge their existence on a map.
| phpisthebest wrote:
| Less of a "controversial opinion" and more of a delusional
| rant with no basis in fact, and no supporting evidence to
| back any of these statements
| vxxzy wrote:
| Which states?
| moralestapia wrote:
| I work on ESG consulting and part of the speech we give is "...
| ESG is not only environmental, there's other important areas to
| improve like making sure there's no kids working on your company,
| blah blah" kind of like a joke and it then triggers more jokes
| from the other side like "Oh you got us, time to change our
| plans" etc ... and then we never talk about the subject again
| because who is going to actually do that, right? Right?!
|
| Well, color me amazed, TIL there's child labor happening in the
| US.
| vasco wrote:
| ESG is a complete farce in implementation, or at least that's
| what I gathered once I learned that a tobacco company like
| Altria can have a 79/100 ESG score.
|
| If there's enough "other stuff" that can bring a company who's
| existence causes death and disease as its main impact on
| society to 79/100, I don't really care about the scoring
| system.
| lupire wrote:
| Altria's main problem is S, not E or G.
| vasco wrote:
| Altria's problem is that it exists.
| permo-w wrote:
| and huge surprise, there are also millions of privately-owned
| slaves in prisons across the sad excuse for a modern nation
| faeriechangling wrote:
| I worked from 12 in a fairly industrial business and mostly
| appreciated the experience because I was in poverty. Meanwhile
| the school I was _actually_ forced to go to was abusive.
|
| Of course businesses do this. If nothing else the kids in
| poverty are literally going to ask for a part time job and a
| few people will say yes because they won't see the harm because
| there actually isn't any.
|
| The only abusive sounding part of this story to me is the kids
| were pulled out of school and seemingly working at the factory
| all the time. What is surprising here is that it went beyond
| "child helps contractor/small business on the weekend and gets
| money under the table" and instead "large corporation had full
| time child labourer at factory" which is rather extreme by
| American standards. But child labour is plenty common, if
| you've eaten chocolate recently there's a good chance it was
| made with tiny child hands, rich people literally just can't
| comprehend such things.
| perlgeek wrote:
| Forbidding child labor isn't enough on its own, it should
| come with enough social support for families that they don't
| need to send their kids working. A non-coercive education
| system would also be fantastic :-)
| creata wrote:
| Is that kind of support really possible? Isn't our society
| literally built on coercing people to work under threat of
| starvation?
| lupire wrote:
| The entire civilized world provides that support.
| creata wrote:
| Sincerely: how do you know that? Child labor is illegal,
| so I don't know how many families would feel a _need_ for
| their children to work if it were legal.
| knaekhoved wrote:
| Yes, it would be awesome if we lived in a fantasy land.
| Unfortunately we need to perform locally feasible
| optimizations.
| puffoflogic wrote:
| > non-coercive education system
|
| That is an oxymoron given how "education" is currently
| defined in the US. The only way this could be achieved is
| if the whole system is torn down to absolute zero and
| rebuilt as something entirely different. That is, of
| course, not possible.
| reaperducer wrote:
| _TIL there 's child labor happening in the US._
|
| It is extremely unusual for this kind of labor abuse to be
| carried out by American companies. As the articles note, these
| are Korean-owned and Korean-operated companies.
|
| FTA: "Korean-operated SL Alabama, finding children as young as
| age 13."
|
| There are _hundreds_ of foreign owned and operated factories in
| America that are run like independent kingdoms, staffed with
| people from other countries with their own restaurants and
| dorms so the workers are never exposed to the outside world, so
| that the company can put the all important "Made in USA" label
| on the product. There's at least one all-Chinese factory
| outside of Las Vegas. There was a Chinese-run industrial
| marijuana farming operation shut down in Arizona last year.
|
| And this is not unique to the United States. There are similar
| operations in Italy, Germany, and elsewhere. There are multiple
| Chinese factories in Italy churning out "Made in Italy" leather
| good for the luxury market.
|
| Lots of newspaper articles about it over the last ten years or
| so.
| tcmb wrote:
| > There are hundreds of foreign owned and operated factories
| in America that are run like independent kingdoms, staffed
| with people from other countries with their own restaurants
| and dorms so the workers are never exposed to the outside
| world,
|
| That doesn't make it ok, does it? What you're describing
| sounds a lot like the conditions that migrant workers in
| Qatar and Saudi Arabia are working in.
|
| The US shouldn't tolerate such conditions for workers in
| factories on its soil, no matter who operates them and where
| the workers are from.
|
| In fact, no country caring about human rights should. I'm
| from Germany and in the early Covid phase in 2020 it became
| clear that there are a lot of east European workers in our
| slaughterhouses, with them living in very tightly packed
| quarters (for which they had to pay exaggerated prices to
| their employers) leading to a massive spread of the disease.
| At the time, many politicians cried that something will have
| to change, but of course nothing happened and the whole thing
| was forgotten as quickly as it had come to light.
| cinntaile wrote:
| What he's saying is that it's only a US company in the
| legal sense and that they're not necessarily operated with
| "American values".
| cinntaile wrote:
| Why the downvotes? I'm just paraphrasing what the GP said
| because the parent misunderstood.
| synu wrote:
| I don't think the person you are replying to was saying
| child slavery was ok, just adding more info on they
| sometimes get away with it.
| reaperducer wrote:
| _That doesn 't make it ok, does it?_
|
| At what point did I say it was OK? You're railing against a
| comment that agrees with your position.
| tcmb wrote:
| I'm sorry if I misinterpreted the thrust of your
| argument. The way you pointed out this was a Korean-run
| factory and that it was 'extremely unusual' to be carried
| out by American companies sounded to me like relativizing
| what was (or is) going on here.
| pbhjpbhj wrote:
| >The US shouldn't tolerate such conditions for workers in
| factories on its soil //
|
| Nor for any company the USA law has reach over. Y'all stop
| copyright all around the World, but that protects executive
| wages so it's pretty clear where the morals lie here.
|
| If there's anyone involved in a company, and that person
| can reasonable be expected to know human trafficking, or
| forced child labour are happening under the auspices of
| that company, any where in the World, if those people are
| in reach of Western countries extradition agreements then
| they should be prosecuted. The companies should be fined a
| minimum of a years [recent average] profit, and all execs
| fined a minimum of a years wage.
| such12 wrote:
| hayst4ck wrote:
| > run like independent kingdoms, staffed with people from
| other countries with their own restaurants and dorms so the
| workers are never exposed to the outside world
|
| I find this incredibly interesting and somewhat surprising,
| can you substantiate the scale of this problem a little bit
| more, or link 3-5 map locations?
| outside1234 wrote:
| How do they get visas for the workers for this?
| galangalalgol wrote:
| And how haven't we jailed the people who got paid off to
| not notice this?
| moralestapia wrote:
| Absolutely, it is impossible for no one to notice this.
|
| That factory should have a managers at least. They should
| be in jail.
| ajsnigrutin wrote:
| This is the saddest part... from bribes to lobbying
| (legal bribes, a true WTF in it's own sense)...
|
| Criminals are going to bribe, sure, undestandable.. but
| people, government employees, who should be working for
| 'us', the taxpayers, are taking bribes... the punishment
| for them should be a vastly higher than for someone just
| offering a bribe... and somehow, (usually) nothing ever
| happens to them... maybe someone loses their job, but
| that's it.
| reaperducer wrote:
| These aren't H1B people. Labor and agriculture visas are a
| lot easier to come by.
|
| Or, in some cases, they use illegal labor. I doubt that the
| federal government gave a work visa to the 13-year-old in
| the article.
| ralph84 wrote:
| For the ones doing it legally, L visas. For the ones doing
| it illegally, B or F visas.
| Jolter wrote:
| In this case the child seems to have been from Guatemala so
| I'm not sure this is exactly the situation you're describing.
| reaperducer wrote:
| It's not. And I'm not trying to excuse what was done. I'm
| merely pointing out that this is a very large and complex
| problem.
| DrewADesign wrote:
| It's probably pretty common in American-owned industries
| known to use human trafficking, but trafficking exploits
| populations our society isn't concerned enough about to
| proactively monitor. The agency Hyundai used for workers is
| not Korean- it's Guatemalan- and it likely supplies farms,
| food processing plants, and other businesses that need lots
| of low end labor. Check out the Frontline documentary on
| human trafficking in food processing plants. The worst
| offender was an egg processor based in Maine.
|
| A friend who worked for a union that organized poultry plant
| workers said some of these plants- all large, American
| companies with names you see in every grocery store--
| essentially ignored labor laws entirely. One actually had a
| jail cell in the factory used as a disciplinary measure for
| misbehaving employees.
| ghufran_syed wrote:
| "One actually had a jail cell in the factory used as a
| disciplinary measure for misbehaving employees."
|
| This seems like a fairly easy thing for the media (or the
| union) to expose - so is there any evidence this is true?
| Seems more likely to be union FUD if the union doesn't
| expose the evidence
| DrewADesign wrote:
| Public evidence? No. Do you have public evidence of
| everything your proven trustworthy friends tell you?
| Luckily, my anecdote isn't supporting a legal action or
| news story.
|
| He said the union absolutely used it to pressure
| management into a more favorable stance towards
| Unionization, and the plant is now unionized.
| lupire wrote:
| Your anecdote is supporting a forum post that you expect
| readers to believe is true. It's a news story.
| DrewADesign wrote:
| Good lord. Get a hobby.
| phpisthebest wrote:
| I am amazed. Having worked in and around US Manufacturing
| plants my entire adult life, I have never once even see anyone
| that could be considered a child working in any plant I have
| ever been in, and I have been in alot of manufacturers. All of
| owned by American entities and people.
|
| ESG is not needed to not have child labor.
| mlindner wrote:
| There's no child labor happening in the US...
| gumby wrote:
| > Well, color me amazed, TIL there's child labor happening in
| the US.
|
| Not all of it is illegal. There is an exception for tobacco
| farming, which employs children as young as 10.
|
| https://www.theatlantic.com/family/archive/2018/06/child-lab...
|
| https://www.hrw.org/report/2015/12/09/teens-tobacco-fields/c...
| bombcar wrote:
| There are tons of exceptions to child labor laws - or child
| actors couldn't exist.
|
| It varies from state to state and industry to industry.
|
| And if they're unpaid then you have much more leeway!
| patientplatypus wrote:
| legitster wrote:
| I'd really like to know more about the "oppressive" part. Were
| these 12 year olds lying about their age to get a summer job? Or
| were these children getting pimped by a staffing firm?
|
| I think there should be a _huge_ divergence of punishment options
| based on the actual details.
| guywithahat wrote:
| Yeah I wonder if the Dad was a manager so he put his son to
| work or something. They said these were "documented" citizens
| which I assume means they're not illegal child immigrants. The
| only other thing we know is that most of these factories were
| set up by Koreans companies, so they're probably not super
| small mom and pop shops. The fact they didn't go more in depth
| into their situation makes me wonder if it's because it goes
| contrary to the narrative, I know Reuters has a habit of doing
| that
| Ekaros wrote:
| Disgusting that we are trading with country that uses child
| labour... We really should sanction them until provably they have
| solved this and slavery issue.
| such12 wrote:
| serf wrote:
| I don't really even get who that joke is poking at -- not the
| US presumably; there is _plenty_ of record of U.S. companies
| being indifferent to poor labor conditions without a
| sanctioning reaction.
| eunos wrote:
| But US Government seems hellbent to sanction all of them.
| jrochkind1 wrote:
| You realize that country is the USA? I'm not sure if you were
| being sarcastic or what.
| comte7092 wrote:
| 100% that was sarcasm
| Jolter wrote:
| Presumably GP is not American.
| neither_color wrote:
| Counter point: It's a good thing this factory was on US soil
| allowing the US DoL to do its job. Imagine how many cases of
| "staffing firms for a sub contractor hiring teenagers" goes
| unnoticed and unpunished around the world.
| bombcar wrote:
| 14 year olds can legally work at McDonalds in some states,
| subject to restrictions.
| [deleted]
| pagade wrote:
| Reminds me of this:
| https://twitter.com/chaitex/status/1583118970089263104
| gumby wrote:
| I assume you are not in the USA, talking about trading with the
| USA?
|
| Child labor is perfectly legal in other US industries, like
| tobacco production.
| greggeter wrote:
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