[HN Gopher] Aizuchi: Does your listening make Japanese people un...
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Aizuchi: Does your listening make Japanese people uncomfortable?
(2013)
Author : karaokeyoga
Score : 102 points
Date : 2022-10-20 08:20 UTC (1 days ago)
(HTM) web link (www.tofugu.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.tofugu.com)
| cat_plus_plus wrote:
| Japan: learn our language and on top adopt our mannerisms to keep
| us comfortable US: What WE learn your language? YOU learn ours
| but don't actually speak it cuz that's cultural appropriation.
| [deleted]
| CobaltFire wrote:
| English is de facto required in Middle and High School in
| Japan, and many parents pay for extra tutoring. Many of the
| best corporate positions require you have a minimum fluency.
|
| In other words: I have no idea where you got that idea.
| cephei wrote:
| The closest parallel I've found for this in English is the phrase
| "active listening" which includes this kind of interjection to
| reassure the speaker that they are heard.
| O__________O wrote:
| Reminds me of impact of culture on aviation safety:
|
| https://wikipedia.org/wiki/Impact_of_culture_on_aviation_saf...
| MisterTea wrote:
| Years back I phoned a retired tech who was one of the last few
| people left who knew how a piece of machinery worked. He had a
| deep booming voice (A somewhat higher pitched Sam Elliott) and
| throughout the conversation continually boomed "yeah" in reply to
| almost everything I said. This mans name was not Japanese but
| that conversation stuck in my head. I will say this, he was a
| good listener and immediatly knew the answer to most of my
| questions.
|
| Half of this conversation was on speaker phone and was overheard
| by a few coworkers who got a kick out the stream of yeah's
| booming in reply. For the next few weeks my coworkers and I would
| repeat this during conversations where we would comically
| interject a deep "yeah" in an attempt to frustrate the person
| speaking. So I can see how it can be annoying to someone not
| familiar with the practice and the lack thereof frustrating to
| someone expecting attention.
| crazygringo wrote:
| I'm American and I certainly don't do anything like this in
| normal conversation, but absolutely do it over the phone.
|
| I never did it in the era of landlines because there was a level
| of background noise present that you could tell the connection
| was working and assume the person was listening.
|
| But then in the early 2000's when we switched to cell phones,
| filtering turned "not talking" into absolute dead silence, no
| background noise. And that was back when cell connections would
| drop frequently, and you'd discover you'd been talking for the
| past 3 minutes to nobody.
|
| So not only would I make a conscious effort to interject "yeah",
| "right", "uh-huh" about every 30 seconds or so of the other
| person talking, but if I was talking and didn't hear anything for
| about 60 seconds I'd just ask if they were still there and
| explain why I was asking -- and then they'd just instinctually
| start peppering their listening with the same "yeah", "right",
| "uh-huh" after I'd ask like 3 times.
|
| It's totally unnecessary now that so many calls happen over Zoom,
| but I definitely still do it over cell phones.
| smegsicle wrote:
| didn't they add the background noise back in?
| cvoss wrote:
| (American native speaker) I do this interjection thing* all the
| time in both technical and social conversations. I still find
| this desirable over Zoom/Teams calls, even with video on,
| because for me the purpose isn't so much checking that the
| digital connection is still live as it is checking that
| communication and understanding are occurring. It annoys me to
| no end that the latency and anti-feedback mechanisms in the
| software swallow these little sounds or mess up their timing or
| make the primary speaker think they're being interrupted. I've
| reluctantly had to stop this practice at work as a remote
| worker.
|
| *For what it's worth, the article claims there is no English
| word for this, but I was taught to call it "backchanneling" in
| a linguistics course.
| g_p wrote:
| > But then in the early 2000's when we switched to cell phones,
| filtering turned "not talking" into absolute dead silence, no
| background noise.
|
| As a matter of interest, the background noise generated on a
| digital squelched line is called comfort noise, and its
| addition is quite common for a number of reasons.
|
| https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comfort_noise
| [deleted]
| JCharante wrote:
| Honestly all the interjections make me feel like they're being
| overeager and fake (which was mentioned in the article), and that
| makes me uncomfortable.
| jrmg wrote:
| Does the latency of video conferencing feel more annoying to
| Japanese speakers? I know that in English, it's most noticeable
| when waiting for potential replies or when trying to interject.
| It seems like it could really mess with aizuchi timing.
| draw_down wrote:
| theknocker wrote:
| anyfoo wrote:
| Being German and having lived for close to a decade in the US
| now, I feel like in German it's also more common to do these
| interjections.
|
| One more jarring difference though is when giving numbers over
| the phone (e.g. your account number). In German, it's common to
| say digits in groups of, say, two to four, and then the listening
| party _repeats_ those digits, to make sure there was no mistake
| so far.
|
| In the US, the other person on the phone just... sits there. Not
| saying anything, not even an acknowledging interjection, until
| you gave them the whole number. And of course sometimes it
| arrived wrong and you have to dissect it...
| RicoElectrico wrote:
| So it explains how that man's interjections weren't purely for
| meme value :)
|
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=buxQHS6cZuI
| foobarian wrote:
| Forget about the nitty gritty of how it works, I didn't even know
| this was a thing until today. Lovely article :-)
| whoisjuan wrote:
| I have a couple of work relationships with people who don't
| provide any verbal or physical cues that they're listening and
| following what I'm saying.
|
| It makes having conversations with those folks incredibly
| difficult.
|
| It probably doesn't help that we are having these conversations
| via Zoom, but I interact with other people via Zoom, and I don't
| have this problem.
| aliqot wrote:
| Hate to admit I get this sometimes, check if your mic is muted.
| causi wrote:
| _Yes, aizuchi does sound a bit like the deeply concerning goop
| you left in a Kleenex last time you got a severe case of
| Bronchitis (hopefully that doesn 't happen often),_
|
| _How did we jump from something as intense as blacksmithing to
| having a conversation, quite possibly over afternoon tea?_
|
| Is there a Japanese word for completely pointless sentence
| embellishments that do nothing but slow the article to an
| agonizing drag?
| klyrs wrote:
| > The fact that there isn't even a proper translation of the
| word in English, though, just proves that native English
| speakers aren't as aware of it as Japanese speakers.
|
| But then, a few paragraphs down, the author uses the term
| "active listening." Ho hum
| phnofive wrote:
| There never seems to be a direct translation into English of
| compound words, only phrases :/
| jicksaw wrote:
| Isn't "active listening" an open compound word?
| forgetfulness wrote:
| Would any German speaker be kind enough to tell us what the
| word for that phenomenon would be? I may or may not write
| an essay-length article about the unbridgeable differences
| between the exotic Germanic culture and the Anglo-Saxon
| worldview based on that untranslatable bit of language.
| Archelaos wrote:
| The techincal term in German is "Rezeptionspartikel", a
| special kind of "Gesprachspartikel". Wikipedia describes
| them as follows:
|
| "Sie werden parallel zur Ausserung eines anderen
| Sprechers oder direkt im Anschluss daran hervorgebracht.
| Sie stellen dabei das Rederecht des Sprechenden nicht
| infrage. Beispiele sind hm, hmhm, mhm, ja ..." ("They are
| uttered parallel to or directly following the statement
| of another speaker. They do not question the speaker's
| right to speak. Examples are hm, hmhm, mhm, ja ...")
|
| Source: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Partikel_(Grammatik
| )#Gespr%C3%... (in German)
| cyphar wrote:
| "Back-channeling" is the English linguistic term for the
| concept, but Xiang Chui is actually referred to in normal
| conversations in Japanese, while most people (the author
| included it seems) don't know or use it in conversation.
| version_five wrote:
| Yeah I tried to ignore that, and I know it's not constructive
| to complain about it here, but I couldn't finish the article
| because of its writing style. Is there an audience this is
| appealing to?
| Aisen8010 wrote:
| I couldn't finish the article either. I guess the author was
| trying hard to be funny.
| least wrote:
| Perhaps "Rong Chang " (jouchou) which translates to prolix,
| tedious, wordy, etc.
|
| I know that you are just being sarcastic to make your point,
| but taking it at face value, it's pretty rare for languages to
| have words with such hyper-specificity.
|
| Is there an English word for completely pointless cynicism
| towards other people's writing styles that adds nothing to the
| conversation?
| praptak wrote:
| > Is there an English word for completely pointless cynicism
| towards other people's writing styles that adds nothing to
| the conversation?
|
| My bet is "lowbrow dismissal" (Is there a word for knowingly
| answering rhetorical questions?)
| netsharc wrote:
| Summary in greentext style:
|
| > Article about differences between 2 cultures.
|
| > Describes foreign word as sounding like it could be
| describing a bodily fluid.
|
| Well done Sarah W!
| jacamera wrote:
| I'm not sure, is there one for killjoy?
|
| Seriously though, I see this exact complaint so often on this
| site. If people like you are so bothered by superfluous (or
| enjoyable and engaging, depending on your perspective) prose
| why not just look up the dictionary definition or Wikipedia
| article of the topic instead?
| throwaway284534 wrote:
| Ironically, that's how most email correspondence worked when I
| lived in Japan. Nearly every message had a paragraph of fluff
| before getting to the unpleasant details:
|
| _Dear Customer,
|
| It seems that the leaves are once again turning to their Fall
| colors, and the chill of an autumn breeze is once again upon
| us...
|
| Also we haven't received your television license fee yet and it
| would be most appreciated if you could please send us it
| immediately.
|
| Warmest regards,
|
| -X_
| sgtnoodle wrote:
| That is a notably pleasant way to be taxed, though. I would
| appreciate the IRS more if their communications were like
| that.
| version_five wrote:
| Personally I'd rather someone tell me directly what I did
| wrong and what they want than coat it in fluff, which I
| consider offensively passive-aggressive. I know that is
| cultural though, and that in some cultures, e.g Japanese,
| it may be taken very offensively to just come out and say
| what you want
| gcanyon wrote:
| 100% this. The IRS doesn't provide enough information in
| their communications, which are _already_ painfully
| verbose.
| mgkimsal wrote:
| I remember getting some tax notification, and attached
| was some 2 page doc indicating "we've spent a lot of time
| working on making our documents more understandable, let
| us know how we're doing"... and... the notice they'd sent
| me was... more confusing than it needed to be. My
| accountant didn't quite understand it. I mean, he knew
| what it was, but hadn't seen the new language, and to top
| it off, it was months late - indicating I owed money that
| I'd paid months earlier.
|
| We replied the following Monday, because the notice said
| we had to reply.
|
| THEN.. 3 months later I got another notice indicating
| they'd received the first reply, and they needed a bit
| more time to process.
|
| This was over about $200.
|
| I would love to see them resourced appropriately, but the
| "let's hire more IRS employees" has been viscously
| attacked as "87000 more people with guns coming to take
| all your money!". I've been hearing that propaganda for
| weeks (months?) now.
| yamtaddle wrote:
| > I would love to see them resourced appropriately, but
| the "let's hire more IRS employees" has been viscously
| attacked as "87000 more people with guns coming to take
| all your money!". I've been hearing that propaganda for
| weeks (months?) now.
|
| Yeah, they've got _way_ fewer people per taxpayer than in
| the 90s, and I don 't think the new hires, the hiring of
| which will be spread unevenly over a decade, will even
| bring them back up to that level. Meanwhile the "armed"
| thing is just transparent bullshit--"here was ONE job
| posting for the police branch of the IRS ( _tons_ of
| federal agencies have such a branch of armed agents,
| including many you wouldn 't expect), so all these new
| hires will surely be armed IRS cops coming to bust your
| door down and take your money!" LOL WUT. But A Certain
| Set of Terrible News Sources ran with that (knowing it
| was a lie) so to some chunk of the population, it's true
| now.
| jrockway wrote:
| Yeah, they're set phrases that go on letters. I have a
| book of them, you have to look up the right one for the
| situation / time of year and add it to your letter. It
| would be a faux pas not to.
|
| As an American, yeah, just charge my credit card for the
| fee. Thanks.
| conception wrote:
| Tldr below.
|
| You are both perfectly fine in wanting it both ways. In
| communicating with people to be effective it's best to
| align with their communication style. Some folks want the
| long explanation, some folks want the tldr. I always try
| to accommodate both in my work communications.
|
| Tldr: Different people liked to be spoken to differently
| and that's fine and useful to accommodate.
| shagie wrote:
| That "some cultures" tends to be known as "high context
| cultures".
|
| https://sites.psu.edu/global/2020/04/18/japan-high-
| context-c...
|
| > Just like Saudi Arabia and Spain, Japan is also
| characterized by high-context communication (R. T. Moran;
| N. R. Abramson; S. V. Moran, 2014, p. 44). Some of
| Japan's traditions, values and norms have supported its
| high context communication. According to Hofstede's
| culture dimension, Japan scores 46 on individualism,
| indicating that they are more likely to show
| characteristics of a collectivistic society; such as
| putting harmony of the group above the expression of
| individual opinions and people have a strong sense of
| shame for losing face (Hofstede Insights, n.d.). With
| this, the Japanese have established an in-direct and non-
| verbal communication within their inner circle rather
| than the outside circle of the world. Thus, in Japan,
| communication goes non-verbally, through subtle gestures,
| facial expression and voice tones. However, this can be a
| big challenge for foreigners and westerners that do not
| understand the Japanese language and communication.
|
| https://kosoadojapan.com/high-context-culture-japan
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-context_and_low-
| context_c...
|
| You even get some difference in the cultural context
| between men and women, and urban and rural, and north and
| south within the United States
|
| For an example of a low context culture... Switzerland
| https://www.worldbusinessculture.com/country-
| profiles/switze...
|
| > On the whole, the Swiss believe in plain speaking and
| place directness before diplomacy. It is expected and
| respected that people will speak their minds, without
| feeling the need to couch any uncomfortable messages in a
| softer way in order to spare the feelings of the
| audience. The type of coded language used by the Japanese
| or the British can be misconstrued in Switzerland as
| prevarication or even deviousness. Better to say what you
| mean and mean what you say.
|
| > As has already been stated, however, this directness of
| approach should not be confused with confrontation or
| aggression - it is more the result of a desire to get to
| the truth or the empirically provable right answer.
| yamtaddle wrote:
| There's a nice bit in Forster's _A Passage to India_ in
| which one of the Indian characters reflects on how ill-
| mannered another character is for taking a polite excuse
| (which also happens to be a lie) as a problem to solve
| and not as the firm "no" that any properly-raised person
| would understand it to be.
| jobs_throwaway wrote:
| > For example, sometimes you'll be saying something in English to
| a Japanese person. They have no idea what you're saying, but
| because they're such good listeners, they're saying "yes, yes,
| yes" to everything you say (because that's the translation of
| hai, right?). At some point, you ask them an important question:
| "Do you want to join my Starcraft2 team?" They say "yes" not
| because they want to join your team (they really don't) but
| because they have no clue what you're saying (and they're good
| listeners).
|
| That explains a lot honestly
| ant6n wrote:
| Yes!
| antihero wrote:
| That makes you a terrible listener though. Fake listening is
| worse than just straight up ignoring someone.
| anigbrowl wrote:
| Japanese is a turn-based strategy game rather than an RTS.
|
| I'm joking a little. But interrupting someone is almost
| unspeakably rude in Japanese, whereas 'Yes! Yes...yes. Yes!
| I'm terribly sorry, I couldn't understand any of that. Bye!'
| would be common in Japanese but infuriating to many
| Americans.
| jobs_throwaway wrote:
| Did you read the article? In Japanese culture, those sorts of
| exclamations are an integral part of good listening. Its
| probably pretty hard to just switch that off when you're put
| in a context with a language barrier
| iherbig wrote:
| You and antihero are talking about two different kinds of
| "good listening," though.
|
| "Being a good listener" has both a practical and a social
| component. You are referring to the social component ("in
| Japanese culture..."). The tenets of social interactions in
| Japanese culture which have been ingrained in speakers of
| the language to one extent or another. The performance
| aspect of the act of listening.
|
| antihero is talking about the practical form of "good
| listening" when they say "that makes you a terrible
| listener though." That is, what is the function of
| "listening" in a social interaction? I would hazard a guess
| that they believe the function of listening is to
| understand what another person is saying.
|
| And by that benchmark, an individual who is not actually
| reaching any sort of understanding is a "bad listener"
| irrespective of how successful they are at performing the
| cultural/social component of the act of listening.
|
| There's the additional implication that because signaling
| you are understanding when you are not leads to
| misunderstanding (which is the antithesis of the intended
| function of listening), it makes the listener an even worse
| quality listener than if they were not performing.
| hasdha wrote:
| I agree, they are using two different definitions of
| "good listening". I'd say the "fit in with the social
| interaction" one is usually the most relevant. This
| reminds me of Wittgenstein's "language games"[1]. Maybe
| I'm butchering Wittgenstein's thought, but my
| understanding is that language works in a social
| situation as a game, as an activity where things "work
| ok" or don't work ok. It's not about me communicating my
| inner mental state and you making sure you're
| understanding my inner mental state (Wittgenstein's
| argument is that this is not generally possible, but also
| maybe it's not even what we usually care about)
|
| Of course, when you're in a specific setting (such as
| doing science or a police investigation) the other
| definition can be more relevant.
|
| [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Language_game_(philosop
| hy)#:~:....
| hombre_fatal wrote:
| Well, they aren't wrong. Nonconfrontation + mimed
| politeness are better descriptions than "good listening"
| when you bluff your way in a convo you don't understand.
|
| Reminds me of the "Place, Japan" meme
| (https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/place-japan). The first
| panel can have an American not understanding a foreign
| language next to a disgusted soyjack, and the second panel
| has a Japanese guy smiling while he doesn't understand a
| word next to a "clap clap" retard soyjack screaming
| "amazing listener!"
| hombre_fatal wrote:
| Reminds me of the horror of living in a foreign country,
| bluffing that you're understanding a convo, and then getting
| asked a question that you didn't even know was a question and
| you certainly don't know the context.
| antihero wrote:
| This is why it's important to develop the skill of being
| able to communicate your completely understandable
| weakness.
| bee_rider wrote:
| Is "hai" closer to something like "ok" or "a'right" than "yes"?
| CobrastanJorji wrote:
| Yes, except it's more formal. Based on tone, it can mean
| "what?" or "yes" or indicate hesitation, etc. If you say it
| really sharply, it can mean agreement, but "ee" (the sound
| the Fonz makes) is probably more equivalent to English's
| "yes."
| anigbrowl wrote:
| Like so much in Japanese, it depends how you say it. It could
| be a simple acknowledgement as you describe, or it could be
| very emphatic to say 'you are important and I'm paying full
| attention' (to a teacher, parent, or official), or it could
| just be a 'yes' - but usually answering a question would be
| 'yes, that's what happened' or something similarly specific.
|
| 'Naruhudo' (usually translated as 'I see' is a common way to
| politely acknowledge hearing information while reserving
| agreement.
| exq wrote:
| I'm reminded of the balloon boy case years ago. The mother was
| Japanese and they didn't get her a proper translator even
| though she had a very basic level of English. She kept saying
| yes to the detective during the interview and he took that to
| mean confirmation not "I'm following along with what you're
| saying". Caused a lot of problems.
| kiawe_fire wrote:
| I really enjoyed the way this article was written. I took a
| couple semesters of Japanese and this is the first I've heard of
| "aizuchi".
|
| This article connected several dots for me :)
| Vrondi wrote:
| This seems very similar to/related to conversational style
| differences between some cultural groups in the USA, where some
| groups have constant interjections from the listener side during
| conversation, other sub cultures here will call it "interrupting"
| and "being disrespectful". I've known it to cause interpersonal
| conflict between friends from different ethnic groups/social
| classes/geographical regions.
|
| Interviews with Linguist Deborah Tannen on this topic:
|
| https://www.waywordradio.org/tag/conversational-style/
|
| https://whyy.org/episodes/interrupting-and-the-art-of-conver...
| rzzzt wrote:
| I wish I could find the article I've read about this topic --
| one example I remember was the "No way!", "Unbelievable!" or
| "Get outta here!"-kind of interjections which throw
| unacquainted people off, as they think the listener expresses
| actual disbelief. (They occasionally do, but people from the
| region that was brought up use it more liberally.)
| ComputerGuru wrote:
| I'm surprised neither of the links have transcripts. PBS
| usually does.
| incomingpain wrote:
| I think I've experienced this. I used to nod, acknowledge, repeat
| what people were saying, etc. People found I was 'talking over
| them' or 'interrupting them'. So I started simply sitting and
| listening. Nothing from me out of my mouth. Then people were
| upset because I wasn't paying attention anymore.
|
| Sometimes the mixed cultures of Canada can be confusing.
| suction wrote:
| least wrote:
| I'm Japanese-American and I behave like this in conversation,
| just with a lot of mms and ahhs and the occasional, "oh really?"
| instead of sou, un, ne?Ben Dang ?, etc. My sister does not,
| really, and I'm not sure why. We were not raised speaking
| Japanese, though perhaps I picked the habit from my father who
| also tends to use these nonverbal grunts to communicate. My
| mother who was hafu did not use them.
|
| Not everyone uses it, but I'm pretty certain I've encountered it
| from others in the US with similar speech behaviors that _aren
| 't_ Japanese. Or perhaps I just never noticed how rare it is.
| dunham wrote:
| There was a paper I read in a sociolinguistics class back in
| college, which observed (for English speakers) that women
| typically would use "uh-huh" etc to indicate that they were
| listening and men were using it only to indicate agreement with
| the speaker. The paper claimed that it led the women to think
| that the men weren't listening and the men to think that women
| were agreeing with them when they were just indicating that
| they were listening.
| MichaelZuo wrote:
| How does this work in a large meeting?
|
| Does everyone at the table really start verbalizing when
| someone starts presenting, speaking, etc.?
| SpicyLemonZest wrote:
| It's common in Hispanic communities. We actually tend to go
| further into what's called "cooperative overlapping", which I
| had to spend the first few years of my career learning to
| avoid.
| hasdha wrote:
| Hispanic here (though not hispanic-american). What do you
| mean by "cooperative overlapping"?
| CobaltFire wrote:
| I have an interesting one to go with yours:
|
| I've been married to a native Japanese speaker for almost 20
| years and this style of speaking translated over to my English.
| I've found it quite useful. My wife, however, does NOT use this
| style in English, only in Japanese. My daughter is like my
| wife; uses it in Japanese but not in English.
|
| Both languages are spoken in our house, and media is probably
| more Japanese than English, as points regarding exposure.
| least wrote:
| I wonder if it's a matter of English education? I don't think
| my grandmother on my father's side was formally taught and my
| father started learning English only after he emigrated to
| the US as a young boy.
|
| Your wife perhaps learned not to and subsequently your
| daughter emulates her mother's speech behaviors? I'm not sure
| if daughters tend to emulate their mother's speech and sons
| emulate their father's, though, or if it's simply
| coincidence.
| CobaltFire wrote:
| I'm honestly not sure, though the education angle sounds
| plausible.
| inanutshellus wrote:
| I spent some time in Sweden. Old folk in the region I was in
| would do this quick inhale of breath instead of an "uh huh"
| kinda "I'm listening".
|
| The thing is... it was like a tiny, frightened gasp. The first
| dude that did it made me worry he was having a heart attack!
| bjelkeman-again wrote:
| Was this maybe in the north of Sweden. The inhale of breath
| between nearly closed lips is the way there. But we also have
| quite a lot of what is described in TFA, but with different
| non-word sounds all over Sweden. But the indrawn breath is
| more north Sweden.
| at_a_remove wrote:
| This reminds me a bit of the Japanese "pointing and calling."
|
| With the standard disclaimer that I am sometimes a bit
| whimsically cruel ... I'm not particularly fond of extraverts and
| their habit of monopolizing the conversation, breaking in,
| preemptive interruptions when they pick up that you're about to
| say something, so I invented a game where I see how long I can
| keep them talking without them noticing I am not saying anything.
| No verbal interjections on my part are allowed (no aizuchi), only
| facial expressions, posture, and hand gestures.
|
| It's surprising how often one apparently gets away with it. I've
| heard, to my amazement (and amusement) that I'm a "good
| conversationalist."
| ComputerGuru wrote:
| How does this work in a primary school setting? Do students
| respond with aizuchi as teachers explain? Are they expected to
| (as in the teacher will call out students not engaging in it)?
| zedpm wrote:
| This is interesting. I've just started having video meetings with
| a colleague (not Japanese) who aggressively interjects these
| words when I'm speaking, to the point that I find it distracting.
| I'm simply not accustomed to having someone say "mmm hmm" several
| times during a single sentence, and I find I start to lose my
| train of thought.
| yamazakiwi wrote:
| We're opposites. I completely lose track of my thoughts and my
| mind starts to wonder if I don't interject or use small
| affirmations throughout a conversation. Half the time I
| interrupt people is because I literally won't remember 30
| seconds later what my thought was because there will be a
| avalanche of other thoughts during that time. I feel like a
| conversation that is not collaborative is not a conversation.
|
| Unless you're telling a long story in which I generally will
| try not to interrupt, but one has their limit to being spoken
| at.
| navhc wrote:
| > The fact that there isn't even a proper translation of the word
| in English, though, just proves that native English speakers
| aren't as aware of it as Japanese speakers
|
| The article seems to make a pretty big point about this being a
| foreign concept that is difficult to articulate, but in English
| linguistics we call it "backchanneling". Obviously it won't be a
| perfect one-to-one translation but it's the same as what is
| described in the opening.
| etage3 wrote:
| It also appears to be similar to Jakobson phatic function
| (checking if the channel is working).
| presentation wrote:
| Honestly as an American living in Japan, it's nothing like
| anything I've experienced in the USA. My wife will say "Hai"
| about as many times as her conversation partner stops for a
| breath, which felt very unnatural to me in English (she'll
| replace it with mhm's in English and it still feels quite
| aggressively frequent). Maybe the same idea but the execution
| is a different level.
| xboxnolifes wrote:
| I've met a few people in the US who will nod and make some
| sort of acknowledging sound after every sentence (or more
| often) you say, so while rare, it's not exactly something
| I've never come across.
| the-printer wrote:
| As an aspiring sidewalk linguistic I am very stimulating by this
| post and its comments. For a brief but significant period of my
| youth I was taught that the "mm-hmms" and "uhh-huh" that
| characterize the English version of "aizuchi" (a commenter has
| said that this is called backchanneling in English) was uncouth.
| That's stuck with me.
|
| What's striking me the most as I age is that "uhh-huh" and "mm-
| hmm" often serve as indicators to the speaker to continue with
| what they're saying. This is important to me because what I've
| found is that, American English speakers have a habit of putting
| a tone on many of their speech patterns that could easily be
| taken in the form of a question (where the last word of the
| sentence has a slight pitch increase) or is a rhetorical question
| in and of itself ("Y'know?").
|
| I understand how alternative interjections can communicate
| engagement with the speaker ("Wow", "Really?", etc) but have also
| observed instances where these interjections in general can
| suggest a sort of condescension against the speaker from the
| listener.
|
| Language is bonkers. I have a hunch that we are in a very chaotic
| age of communication dynamics.
| afandian wrote:
| I have a Japanese friend, and we have relatively philosophical
| conversations, talking about ideas. Often when I make a point he
| acknowledges it with "thank you" which always intrigued me. I
| always wondered whether this was a literal translation of an
| aizuchi.
|
| Can anyone here shed some light?
| CobaltFire wrote:
| If I'm understanding your explanation right he says this at the
| conclusion of a point. If so this is more in line with my
| experiences in discussions in Japan, acknowledging that you've
| made a point and thanking you for sharing it with them without
| necessarily accepting it.
|
| Weirdly the best example that comes to mind was when I was
| buying a car and discussing the price against my needs and why
| I wouldn't want to pay what they were asking. The salesman
| would acknowledge the points I made with a "Thank you" and then
| proceed to argue against them.
| afandian wrote:
| Yes, I think it's the same thing. It happens several times in
| a conversation. What intrigued me was how the translation
| intensifies the gratitude when read in the British context.
|
| Same way that when an American acknowledges my thanks with a
| "sure" it seems, from my perspective, to be downplayed.
| ilaksh wrote:
| Interesting. But notice how they aren't interrupting the other
| speaker with their own point. Because that is nearly universally
| poor manners.
| cyphar wrote:
| > The blacksmith, being a wise old sage, starts with the first
| blow saying: "Like this!" Then, the apprentice follows the
| master's strike with another, saying: "Oh, like this!" ...
|
| The term does originally come from blacksmithing, but i disagree
| that it's from a teacher instructing a student. It comes from the
| fact that they are both alternating in striking the same thing
| (to make the analogy to a conversation -- you're both "striking"
| the same topic). From Wikipedia:
|
| > Yu Yuan haDuan Ye deZhu Dao De naDuan Ye Zhi toJin Fu
| wohasandeXiang kaiCe niWei Zhi shi, hanma (Chui ) woZhen ruuZhu
| Shou (Xiang kaiChui tomo) woZhi suYan Xie kara.
|
| And a language blog[1]:
|
| > sokode, Shi Jiang gaChui (hanma)deTie woDa tsutaatoni, Di Zi
| gasugusamaChui (hanma)deTie woDa tsuYang Zi kara, [Xiang Chui
| woDa tsu] toiuYan Xie gaSheng maremashita.
|
| In both cases, they are referring to a master and student but
| they make no mention that it's explicitly being done to teach the
| student.
|
| This explains why the alternating roles in pounding mochi (which
| is a similar, though much louder[2], collaborative process) is
| also sometimes likened to Xiang Chui (tbh I was under the
| impression it was also called Xiang Chui but I can only find
| examples of it being used as an analogy, while the blacksmithing
| story is the commonly-cited etymology).
|
| Also the (linguistic) term for this in English is "back-
| channeling". To be fair, Xiang Chui is referred to in
| conversation more frequently than "back-channeling" is in English
| but there is a word for it.
|
| [1]: https://fof48.com/aizuti-wo-utu/ [2]:
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cGeUE9KK-es
| foobarian wrote:
| The Turkish show Dirilis: Ertugrul had a number of back-and-
| forth smithing scenes that remind me of this. [1]
|
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uqeF8nSiewA
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