[HN Gopher] India fines Google $162M for anti-competitive practi...
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India fines Google $162M for anti-competitive practices on Android
Author : jmsflknr
Score : 179 points
Date : 2022-10-20 14:40 UTC (8 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (techcrunch.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (techcrunch.com)
| bl4ck_goku wrote:
| Might as well do something about the gambling apps being promoted
| in sports and by celebrities.
| webmobdev wrote:
| The Competition Commission of India, which began investigating
| Google several years ago after complaints from local firms, said
| in a press release that Google requiring device manufacturers to
| pre-install its entire Google Mobile Suite and mandating
| prominent placement of those apps "amounts to imposition of
| unfair condition on the device manufacturers" and thus was in
| "contravention of the provisions of Section 4(2)(a)(i) of the
| Act." It also ordered the Android-maker to not offer
| any incentives to smartphone makers to exclusively carry its
| search services. ... The antitrust watchdog said in
| its statement today that device manufacturers should not be
| forced to install Google's bouquet of apps and the search giant
| should not deny access to its Play Services APIs and monetary and
| other incentives to vendors.
|
| Good. Ensuring monopolies don't crush competition, and creating a
| level playing business field is what prevents capitalism from
| becoming dysfunctional.
| aatharuv wrote:
| India really hates big _foreign_ monopolies. The last really
| big foreign monopoly to get a place in India, the British East
| India Company ended up taking over the country.
| KaoruAoiShiho wrote:
| Everyone should hate big foreign monopolies.
| db1234 wrote:
| Check out ONDC https://fortune.com/2022/08/02/why-india-could-
| single-handed...
|
| It's like UPI but for e-commerce. We can expect companies like
| Amazon to make noise about this.
| [deleted]
| CosmicShadow wrote:
| These fines are always at least 1 to 2 decimal points too small
| for their targets to even care about. Want to hurt them? Fine
| them 10% of their yearly revenue, that'll get their attention.
| ummonk wrote:
| They've also issued a cease and desist order. If Google
| continues its anti-competitive behavior, they can slap it with
| a much bigger fine.
| hiyer wrote:
| The amount in rupees is 1337 crores. I wonder if the CCI was
| aware of its significance among geeks :-).
| sandGorgon wrote:
| This is a by-product of a simple thing: Google being the largest
| payment system provider in India.
|
| Google Pay in India is basically CashApp++ . And the govt is
| paranoid about the "Big Tech takeover of banking". Which is not
| very dissimilar to "Bust Up Big Tech Act".
|
| Google Pay is pre-installed on every android system. This is
| basically a browser war part 2.0. Except for payments.
| kylehotchkiss wrote:
| Aren't PayTM and PhonePe bigger?
| metahost wrote:
| Those are insignificant in comparison to Google Pay (or Tez
| as it used to be called).
| tatpacc wrote:
| Here is the link to original order
| [https://www.cci.gov.in/antitrust/press-release/details/261/0]
|
| some experts
|
| 13. Accordingly, in terms of the provisions of Section 27 of the
| Act, the Commission has imposed monetary penalty as well as
| issued cease and desist order against Google from indulging in
| anti-competitive practices that have been found to be in
| contravention of the provisions of Section 4 of the Act. Some of
| the measures that were indicated by the Commission are as
| follows:
|
| i. OEMs shall not be restrained from (a) choosing from amongst
| Google's proprietary applications to be pre-installed and should
| not be forced to pre-install a bouquet of applications, and (b)
| deciding the placement of pre-installed apps, on their smart
| devices.
|
| ii. Licensing of Play Store (including Google Play Services) to
| OEMs shall not be linked with the requirement of pre-installing
| Google search services, Chrome browser, YouTube, Google Maps,
| Gmail or any other application of Google.
|
| iii. Google shall not deny access to its Play Services APIs to
| disadvantage OEMs, app developers and its existing or potential
| competitors. This would ensure interoperability of apps between
| Android OS which complies with compatibility requirements of
| Google and Android Forks. By virtue of this remedy, the app
| developers would be able to port their apps easily onto Android
| forks.
|
| iv. Google shall not offer any monetary/ other incentives to, or
| enter into any arrangement with, OEMs for ensuring exclusivity
| for its search services.
|
| v. Google shall not impose anti-fragmentation obligations on
| OEMs, as presently being done under AFA/ ACC. For devices that do
| not have Google's proprietary applications pre-installed, OEMs
| should be permitted to manufacture/ develop Android forks based
| smart devices for themselves.
|
| vi. Google shall not incentivise or otherwise obligate OEMs for
| not selling smart devices based on Android forks.
|
| vii. Google shall not restrict un-installing of its pre-installed
| apps by the users.
|
| viii. Google shall allow the users, during the initial device
| setup, to choose their default search engine for all search entry
| points. Users should have the flexibility to easily set as well
| as easily change the default settings in their devices, in
| minimum steps possible.
|
| ix. Google shall allow the developers of app stores to distribute
| their app stores through Play Store.
| syrrim wrote:
| Christ, google must be kicking themselves for being so
| permissive with android. Unless they impose similar
| requirements on apple, this seems like a punishment for being
| as permissive as they are.
| simion314 wrote:
| Apple is not selling iOS to Samsung with extra conditions
| like : you should not offer other operating systems or you
| should not pre-install our competitors", "you should not make
| our apps uninstallable"
|
| Apple is breaching the rules but in a different way
| TheCoelacanth wrote:
| iPhone has a tiny market share in India. They probably don't
| consider them large enough to be worth regulating.
| bradleykingz wrote:
| Holy hell, this seems a lot more comprehensive than I'd ever
| expected. Good job India.
|
| I hope this spreads to the rest of the world somehow. The fact
| that it's impossible to uninstall YouTube or use Vanced as the
| default for YouTube.com links is the bane of my existence.
| tatpacc wrote:
| As an Indian, unfortunately I don't have much hope. Even if
| this is true and somehow got implemented, it has even far
| reaching worse outcome for the country. I hope that i am
| wrong but see my other comment.
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33278016
| gernb wrote:
| Can I have the same for Micrsoft and Apple for both mobile and
| desktop?
|
| For Apple I get it's different since they don't have OEMs
| selling Macs/iPhones/iPads but I feel like many similar
| restrictions should apply
|
| Examples:
|
| > Google shall allow the users, during the initial device
| setup, to choose their default search engine for all search
| entry points.
|
| > Google shall not offer any monetary/ other incentives to, or
| enter into any arrangement with, OEMs for ensuring exclusivity
| for its search services.
|
| Seems like this should go both ways given the previous one.
|
| > Google shall allow the developers of app stores to distribute
| their app stores through Play Store.
|
| > Google shall not restrict un-installing of its pre-installed
| apps by the users.
|
| I know Apple has done a better job of this now than in the past
| but I can't uninstall the dialer on iOS where as I can on
| Android, as just one example still left. I'm pretty sure I can
| set the default camera app on Android as well and delete the
| built in one though I haven't used android in years so no idea
| if that's still a possibility.
|
| Also, while we're at it. Will any of this apply to Chromebooks?
| 2Gkashmiri wrote:
| here is my take.
|
| currently there are all microsoft-y nudge user till they allow
| then say "user accepted"... case in point. i have a moto phone
| that has stock android. very nice. it has default sms as
| "messages". this app keeps nudging me to use "chat features"
| and other bs so the "dont use connected features" line is
| really small while accept is a big button. they dont want me to
| not accept so they keep pushing me.
|
| same for "play protect". i have decided to not accept it so
| every often i install an app it asks me if i want to enable it.
|
| same for "enable location". i keep my location off so when i
| have to use an app, i turn it on and i get a message "for
| better experience, tun on device location which uses google
| location service". so if i accept this, "google location
| accuracy" and "emergency location service" and even wifi
| scanning (sometimes) gets enabled so these are really scummy
| techniques.
|
| i use F-droid as my default app store and aurora store to
| download apps not on f-droid. haven't signed in to play store
| because i don't have a google account.
|
| these "keep nudging till the user accepts" should be banned as
| well. if the user does not want to allow location accuracy,
| don't auto enable it.
| ocdtrekkie wrote:
| Looks like they went way beyond the EU's restrictions. I doubt
| Google can do the whole "pay for Play Store by device unless
| you agree to install these other apps" workaround. Hopefully
| the EU will catch up here and the US will do something similar.
| colpabar wrote:
| I feel like I see headlines like this all the time. Some
| country/government fines some tech giant some large amount of
| money. But I always wonder, do these fines ever get paid?
| ocdtrekkie wrote:
| The fine isn't that key an issue, it's the order to comply
| going forwards. Read the comment summarizing what Google is no
| longer permitted to do in India.
| rarec wrote:
| Probably. Otherwise, it wouldn't keep happening.
| atdrummond wrote:
| Yes. But they're a rounding error for FAANG firms.
| riddleronroof wrote:
| In other words, Ambani's Reliance co will launch search next
| month.
| IceWreck wrote:
| > ix. Google shall allow the developers of app stores to
| distribute their app stores through Play Store.
|
| This is huge if google follows through
| einpoklum wrote:
| Not that huge. If, however, phone distributors would start
| providing non-Google app download hubs / stores as the default
| - _that_ would be more serious.
| cudgy wrote:
| Anyone know how much net profit Google makes in one year from the
| India market in USD? One article states Rs 586.2 crore, but how
| to convert to USD?
|
| https://m.timesofindia.com/business/india-business/google-in...
| programmer_dude wrote:
| It's 5,593.8 Cr, which is equal to 676.15 million USD. Note:
| 676.15 = 5593.8*1e7/82.73/1e6.
| mmiyer wrote:
| 586.2 Cr is correct for net profit ("The net profit was
| higher by about 23.9 per cent at Rs 586.2") which is what the
| original commentator said. 5,593.8 Cr is revenue.
| programmer_dude wrote:
| Uh oh, it seems like I made a mistake. You may be right!
| But I am not able to edit my comments now.
| codegeek wrote:
| That's about $71M USD. (1 Crore = 10,000,000 units). Currently,
| 1 USD = 83 INR
|
| So, 586 crores INR = 5860000000 INR = $71,000,000 USD
|
| EDIT: It seems like some people are saying the correct number
| is not 586 crores but 5k crores which is 10 times more.
| swampthinker wrote:
| That sounds really low
| programmer_dude wrote:
| Because it is incorrect. The correct figure is 5,593.8 Cr,
| which is equal to 676.15 million USD. Note: 676.15 =
| 5593.8*1e7/82.73/1e6.
| codegeek wrote:
| Not sure. It says Profits, not Revenue. So may be possible
| ?
| keewee7 wrote:
| Good in theory but Google's Android apps and Google forbidding
| Indian telcom companies and Chinese smartphone manufactures from
| installing adwarecrap has made the ultra-cheap smartphone
| experience somewhat tolerable for hundreds of millions of people.
| It's all going to be insufferable adware hell from now on.
| nmridul wrote:
| Except Motorola (now owned by Lenovo and claims closest to
| default Android) most of the Chinese phones still come with
| their own bloatware. Xiaomi has many default apps including
| their own Messaging, file manager, dialer. These come with
| their own user agreement and privacy policy.
|
| Some of these apps are good to have while others are just
| bloat.
| tatpacc wrote:
| other comment mentioning that "Ambani's Reliance co will launch
| search next month." is not realistic. I mean even Bing is not
| able to capture significant market share of Google after all
| these years.
|
| > Google forbidding Indian telcom companies and Chinese
| smartphone manufactures from installing adwarecrap has made the
| ultra-cheap smartphone experience somewhat tolerable for
| hundreds of millions of people.
|
| however, this comment is also related to Ambani's Jio
| (Subsidiary of Reliance) are planning to launch Android
| devices. And mind it, Jio is one of the largest telecom
| provider in India with the blessing of ruling party. Jio also
| have suits of all kind of applications like chat, payment,
| audio streaming like Spotify, and what not, etc. which is less
| of utility app and can be use as surveillance system for the
| government in the future.
|
| India is heading towards government system like deadly mix of
| Russia in terms of democracy and China in terms of surveillance
| system (look at the recent telecom act amendment proposed by
| government in last month. Basically it can force any VoIP
| services such as WhatsApp to verify user identity.)
|
| Current government was not approving WhatsApp license for UPI
| for years until after WhatsApp decided to invest in Jio
| [https://techcrunch.com/2020/06/24/india-approves-
| facebooks-5...] At that time few peoples were discussing that
| this investment is nothing but to bribe government and/or Jio
| to get UPI license. Now WhatsApp got that permission
| [https://techcrunch.com/2022/04/13/whatsapp-permitted-to-
| exte...]
| sremani wrote:
| Ah! the whole theory that Reliance is a BJP's poodle. Go back
| and look 1986 Cricket World Cup and what is it named.. and ..
| you got it right, Reliance Cup.
|
| The Ambanis are no one's poodles all Indian Politicians are
| their poodles. The monumental growth of Reliance from a small
| textile company to a petro-chemical behemoth to a huge
| conglomerate happened under the rule of Indian National
| Congress.
| tatpacc wrote:
| > The Ambanis are no one's poodles all Indian Politicians
| are their poodles.
|
| I am not denying that. But the way, current government is
| working, good luck with current situation improving
| anymore. And BJP or Congress or any other party
| politicians, especially in India, like to enjoy absolute
| control over citizens. So by some miracle if other party
| got in power in future then also they will not work to
| correct wrong done by current government.
| [deleted]
| acchow wrote:
| > It's all going to be insufferable adware hell from now on.
|
| Didn't American telecom companies try this? And then the
| customers eventually found it all insufferable, so the practice
| was canned?
| summerlight wrote:
| That's mostly because of iOS where Apple has a complete
| control over. If the half of the market cannot play with
| those garbage, it is much harder to do that for the rest as
| well thanks to competition. But AFAIK, iOS has a pretty
| minimal presence in India so it's not going to be the same
| situation.
| danuker wrote:
| > adwarecrap
|
| You mean Google bundling their apps with spyware, then sending
| me ads based on the info gathered is not adwarecrap?
| sophacles wrote:
| Its adware. It's also better than a lot of apps that fall
| into the crap category. For instance, maps will show me maps
| that are farily accurate. Many of the bundled apps i would
| get in the past - verizon maps or whatever - weren't actually
| able to do their purported job, just display ads until crash.
| sirpunch wrote:
| I hope people don't make the assumption that anything that's
| not coming from Google is harmful and a potential
| adware/malware. People who support Apple's app store monopoly
| also use the same logic. Maybe the Indian government needs to
| push separate bills prohibiting manufactures from packaging
| crapware. But this is a step in the right direction IMO.
| cafed00d wrote:
| > Maybe the Indian government needs to push separate bills
| prohibiting manufactures from packaging crapware
|
| One person's crapware is another person's batteries-included-
| ware.
|
| We wouldn't want to ban Sony MP3 players from including an
| app that plays music, right?
|
| Similar to how we wouldn't want iPods to be banned from
| coming with an in-built Apple Music.app client[1]
|
| Google's bundled-in variant of an internet browser _may_ be
| as harmful as Safari on iOS or, quite formidably[2], Internet
| Explorer on Windows. But unless governments can unambiguously
| discern whether Chrome is adware/crapware or batteries-
| included-software we'd not get much use out of regulation.
|
| [1] Please don't flame on me with "iPods don't have Apple
| Music". What I meant to say is that the on-device application
| software that ran on iPods is _identical_ to that running on
| macOS, iPhone etc. It's pretty much the exact same music
| player code.
|
| [2] IE bundling into Windows is literally what got Microsoft
| branded as anti-competitive by the Justice Dept. in the late
| 90s / early 2000s
| nmridul wrote:
| If Apple ipod is market leader in music player then the
| device owner should be able to uninstall the "Apple music"
| and install any 3rd party developed music player on it,
| this should be OK.
| neilpa wrote:
| > We wouldn't want to ban Sony MP3 players from including
| an app that plays music, right?
|
| Maybe? There was that time Sony decided to install a
| rootkit when you played a CD
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sony_BMG_copy_protection_root
| k...
| Arainach wrote:
| We don't need to assume. We have decades of experience and
| data showing that mobile operators will jam phones full of as
| much spyware, adware, and experience-ruining garbage as they
| are legally and technically able.
| lenkite wrote:
| Open access will also enable OSS apps. Having alternatives
| would be terrific.
| gauddasa wrote:
| But I've been always disabling (using Android Debug Bridge)
| native Google apps (Gmail, Youtube ...) and using alternatives
| from F-Droid including apps for phone call and messaging. In
| fact, I have avoided signing into Play Store on all androids I
| have ever used so far.
| 2Gkashmiri wrote:
| i don't understand what you are trying to say?
| CobrastanJorji wrote:
| I read it as "Google having control was bad, but Google had
| been using that control to stop very bad things, so in
| practical terms this is actually bad news."
| 2Gkashmiri wrote:
| nah.... sure we will have ad filed stores and all that bs
| but that is currently happening on xiaomi and realme phones
| anyways.... they have OS level ads and people are fine with
| it....
|
| i am interested in having F-droid as a respectable store
| that has some more polish, aurora-store type features would
| be nice things to have.
|
| and having ability to "delete system apps" that is only
| possible on stock android or in my case moto phones
| only.... i don't have google crap installed and untill now,
| xiaomi/realme/oppo and others couldn't do that even if they
| wanted. now they can.....
|
| think of it this way. W10, w11 has a lot of nonsense but
| for technically inclined, there is the debloater so anyone
| who is interested can do that and that should happen here
| also
| asadlionpk wrote:
| India following EU to claim a piece of that ad money.
| Nextgrid wrote:
| I don't mind governments taking ad money even if they were
| outright stealing it, because if anything it puts pressure on
| companies not to deal with ads at all which would be a net
| benefit to society, productivity and mental health worldwide.
|
| I like having the option of _buying_ products that have nothing
| to do with ads - unfortunately in the current situation,
| _everything_ has at least some ties to this industry, so
| effectively we currently don 't have a choice regardless of
| whether we're willing to pay. This kind of pressure will
| hopefully change this.
| nmridul wrote:
| In addition to fine, India is asking Google to open up.
| robofanatic wrote:
| well, EU claims in billions
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