[HN Gopher] 2/3 of kids bike to school in Assen because it was d...
___________________________________________________________________
2/3 of kids bike to school in Assen because it was designed that
way (2013)
Author : gmays
Score : 168 points
Date : 2022-10-18 17:56 UTC (5 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.aviewfromthecyclepath.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.aviewfromthecyclepath.com)
| vondur wrote:
| Given the prevalence of bikes in the Netherlands this doesn't
| seem surprising. Usually Elementary schools in US cities are
| close enough to walk to in many cases. This however doesn't stop
| most families from driving their kids to school.
| banannaise wrote:
| "Close enough to walk" and "has walking infrastructure" are two
| very different things. In making schools and other things
| easier to access by car, we have often made them harder to
| access on foot, especially for children who are more vulnerable
| in dangerous situations around traffic.
| hoosieree wrote:
| I live in a bike-friendly city (League of American Bicyclists
| "Gold" level) but all of my cycling routes include roads
| without bike lanes. I wouldn't ask a kid to do it, at least
| not until people learn to drive _much_ safer.
| pmontra wrote:
| This is from 2013. I wonder if they improved the cycle paths
| network in the last 9 years.
| maest wrote:
| I sometimes like to turn headlines like this on their head. e.g.
| this can also be read as "1/3 of kids in Assen are prevented from
| biking to school by design"
| Arie wrote:
| It can also be read as 1/3 are walking:
|
| > The remaining 1/3 are those who live close enough to the
| primary school that they are more likely to walk.
| smartbit wrote:
| Very probably.
| [deleted]
| stergios wrote:
| Did anyone notice that __no one__ is wearing a helmet in any of
| those pictures?
|
| In California it is a law that anyone under 18 years old must
| wear a helmet. And those above 18 not wearing a helmet get
| ridiculed by the sanctimonious helmet wearing crowd.
| russellbeattie wrote:
| Davis California is a model for this in the US, specifically
| designed on the Dutch model of urban transport.
|
| https://www.theguardian.com/cities/2015/aug/03/davis-califor...
| acchow wrote:
| Awesome for Davis. Sad when you realize this could be every
| city in the greater Bay Area which all share a similar climate
| to Davis but somehow is not...
|
| San Francisco is getting there tho. I see new protected bike
| lanes pop up regularly.
| dataviz1000 wrote:
| Park City, Utah is very similar. Kids there have electric bikes
| because of the mountains. There are safe bike paths and tunnels
| under roads everywhere in the city.
| kornhole wrote:
| European towns were generally laid out in the days of horses and
| pedestrians before asphalt, cars, and sprawl. So it is easier for
| them to revert to bikeways and walkways. US cities were generally
| laid out when the US was the biggest oil producer and biggest car
| manufacturer. Now that we are in later days of the age of oil,
| people will continually curse the decisions of the past as we try
| with great difficulty to reconfigure.
| Maarten88 wrote:
| The US had many beautiful city centers that were walkable and
| had public transport. It was bulldozed to make room for the
| car.
|
| They went so far as to invent the concept of jaywalking to get
| rid of those pesky pedestrians on the road, so that cars could
| have all the space.
| noahtallen wrote:
| Important caveats to your point:
|
| 1. Most US cities predate the automobile, and nearly every city
| freeway involved bulldozing existing homes and neighborhoods.
|
| 2. Places like the Netherlands also went car-heavy as they
| rebuilt after the world wars. Instead, more recent policies
| have made redevelopment to bicycle and people friendly streets
| possible.
|
| 3. A nice boulevard with space for trams, bicyclists,
| pedestrians, and cars is not narrow.
|
| My overall point is that specific development policies cause
| the biggest differences between North America and, say, Europe.
| Not the specific geography and existing layout of the cities.
| (Though it certainly makes a difference, there are plenty of
| old European cities that aren't nearly as people-friendly as
| Amsterdam because of their car-friendly policies)
| countvonbalzac wrote:
| "This cycle-path is 3.5 metres wide - wide enough for side-by-
| side cycling in both directions at once." 3.5 meters is ~11.5
| feet which is less than ONE highway lane in the US (at 12 ft).
| Bike lanes are so much more space efficient than highways - one
| bike lane can transport so many more people than a highway - and
| yet this country is wildly opposed to them. I just do not
| understand why.
| jbverschoor wrote:
| 0 kids in suburbia bike to school because it was designed that
| way
| jandrese wrote:
| That's not true. While it isn't a huge number, I've noted that
| the bike racks at the local elementary are usually full unless
| the weather is crummy. Granted, they don't have a ton of racks
| so it's probably only a couple of dozen bikes or so but that's
| not nothing. A decent number of kids in that neighborhood walk
| as well.
|
| My kids ride the bus, mostly because there is a gap in the
| sidewalk where the road dips into the neighboring county
| between my house and the school and that road is rather busy.
| It's an unfortunate quirk of the geography for the elementary,
| but it will be possible for them to bike to the middle school
| if they want to.
| WirelessGigabit wrote:
| But don't look at your phone while biking or you'll get a ticket!
| kwhitefoot wrote:
| It's quite normal in Europe and Scandinavia
|
| Probably more than 2/3 travel to the local school by bicycle, on
| foot, or by bus where I live in Norway. By bus because we are a
| rural kommune and some children live too far away to walk or
| cycle.
| geraldwhen wrote:
| In the US, most cities have bussing programs to intentionally
| give kids long commutes. The goal is to put students from
| poorer areas in better schools.
|
| Academic outcomes show this doesn't help the students, but
| cities continue on regardless. What person thinks a 40 minute
| commute for a child is appropriate or healthy? I would be
| shocked if that worked for anyone.
| nnopepe wrote:
| Why do they opt for such a silly scheme over improving the
| quality of local schools?
| munk-a wrote:
| In a lot of parts of America school funding comes from
| local taxes so regions would need to band together to
| provide consistent funding across districts (which would
| cause the richer districts to lose funding money which
| pisses off rich people).
| mcv wrote:
| Yes, but why not change that system in order to provide
| more equal funding, instead of resorting to bussing?
| [deleted]
| Turing_Machine wrote:
| > In the US, most cities have bussing programs to
| intentionally give kids long commutes. The goal is to put
| students from poorer areas in better schools.
|
| Busing hasn't been a thing for many years, and never was in
| use in "most cities".
|
| Edit: for those in other countries, "busing" in this context
| means loading the children who would normally attend one
| school onto a bus and transporting them to another (often
| distant) school. The intent behind this was to even out the
| distribution of races among the schools. It never did work
| well (not the least because essentially all of the students
| and parents involved hated it), and was effectively banned by
| a series of Supreme Court decisions starting in the 1990s.
| hinkley wrote:
| Somewhere up that direction, or maybe in Denmark, I heard
| there's a bike tunnel, where the the ventilation system is set
| up such that you always have a tailwind.
|
| I want some of those here.
| avgcorrection wrote:
| Normally I roll my eyes at these "here in Europe" accounts from
| one single country. But then on the other hand, that is the
| most European thing to do on the Internet.
| mathverse wrote:
| Trust me it pisses me to no end to read that all the time.
|
| Europeans underestimate how different countries in Europe
| are.
| munk-a wrote:
| It's also quite healthy for folks - biking to school (or work!)
| helps get the body moving in the morning much more so than
| getting a ride in. It's unfortunate that in north america the
| car is viewed as the default mode of transportation regardless
| of how short the trip may be.
| notch656a wrote:
| I pretty regularly biked ~10km to school starting around age 12
| in middle America. It was dangerous including a 4 lane highway
| with no bike lanes. Given how fat the town is I grew up in I
| imagine it was safer in the long run than being inactive.
|
| I kind of wonder whether the fatalities would be worth the
| tradeoff if America encouraged biking to improve health at the
| cost of road carnage, but my inclination is to say yes even in
| the case of children.
| itronitron wrote:
| It doesn't have to be that way. A four lane highway should
| have enough buffer to allow for a two way hike and bike path
| some distance from the cars.
|
| From what I have seen of the Netherlands, the bike paths are
| physically separated from the driving lanes (except side
| residential streets) so there is much less risk of a cyclist
| getting run over, side swiped, or cut off by a vehicle.
|
| Funding these would be easy, just drop the speed limit by
| 5mph and then automate the issuing of tickets to drivers
| exceeding the speed limit. Tell voters what the enforcement
| action is funding and that once the bike paths are finished
| the speed enforcement will ease off a bit (but not
| completely.)
| kazen44 wrote:
| > From what I have seen of the Netherlands, the bike paths
| are physically separated from the driving lanes (except
| side residential streets) so there is much less risk of a
| cyclist getting run over, side swiped, or cut off by a
| vehicle.
|
| another very important factor in road safety in the
| netherlands is that bicycle users and car users are only
| mixed in low speed situation (less then 30km/h if i
| remember correctly) and that car drivers are always at
| fault for an accident with a bike with the exception of
| some very specific, hard to prove cases.
|
| Drivers education stresses this dearly, and because
| everyone in the netherlands grows up riding a bike, the
| social contract to keep bikers safe is very highly lived
| after.
| null_object wrote:
| > It's quite normal in Europe and Scandinavia
|
| I live in central Stockholm and indeed walk to school with my
| youngest kid.
|
| But every single day I'm amazed and frankly enraged by the
| massive number of cars leaving kids right outside the school
| gates.
|
| And often driving off at high speed, checking phones for that
| "important" morning meeting.
|
| Frankly sick of reading this mythical 'car-free' Europe thing.
| Neighbors as close geographically as Sweden and Denmark can be
| light years apart in their cultural values.
| einpoklum wrote:
| I lived in Amsterdam for several years, then went back to a
| mostly-bicycle-ignorant country. And, boy, do I miss the
| infrastructure for biking! You simply never feel like you're
| missing out on anything by not having a car. Plus, your health
| and stamina improve by having routine aerobic activity every day
| :-)
| skrebbel wrote:
| When I read the headline I thought they meant "and the rest
| walk". Most Dutch primary schools are small and local. My school
| (not in Assen), back in the nineties, had a rule that you weren't
| allowed to come by bike if you lived less than 1km away because
| they didn't have enough space for the bikes otherwise. I always
| looked with envy to the kids who got to bike, I had to walk.
|
| All I mean to say is, this is a pretty normal statistic
| (anecdotally) and going to primary school by other means than
| biking or walking happens but isn't super common except in very
| rural areas or special schools (either for special needs kids or
| based on some niche philosophy) that attract kids from a larger
| distance.
| taeric wrote:
| Calling this a normal statistic feels wrong. Amazing that their
| are places that is true, but I live on a literal island and the
| vast majority of kids get to school by bus. With the next set
| by drop off.
| NikolaNovak wrote:
| "Normal" is geographically bound.
|
| I was born in Europe and was not aware of any other mode of
| going to primary or secondary school other than walking.
|
| Now I'm in a small town in Canada where the city council
| consistently votes against any sort of public transit let
| alone walking improvements, and every family has multiple
| cars. Plus, most kids would not be allowed to walk alone and
| unaccompanied to school even if they could :(
| skrebbel wrote:
| Normal in the Netherlands. This article makes it out to be
| specific to one suburb in Assen.
|
| It's like writing an article about how great the croissants
| are in eastern Toulouse. It's France, the croissants are
| great everywhere.
| taeric wrote:
| Ok. That makes a lot more sense. Being normal to an area
| might be the case. I'd imagine for a lot of folks, the
| point stands. Just, it is not only a single suburb that
| demonstrates it.
| nicoburns wrote:
| It's normal in pretty much all of Europe. In rural areas
| people might need to catch a bus in, or even be driven.
| But the vast majority of children in towns and cities
| walk to school. My parents used to walk me until I was
| about 8, then I walked myself.
| mathverse wrote:
| No it is not. Eastern European countries are very car
| centric and so are the smaller austrian cities +
| surrounding towns.
|
| I imagine Germany to be the same (outside of the major
| cities that is).
|
| It only seems that everyone walks to school because
| everyone seems to live close to one. But that's not the
| case. Far from it.
| tsimionescu wrote:
| Even in Eastern Europe, which is quite car centric by
| European standarda, kids typically live close enough to
| school to walk there, at least in cities. Also, public
| transport is very common, especially for older kids,
| whose don't want to be driven around by their parents but
| are neither old enough nor rich enough to drive a car.
| mathverse wrote:
| This is a remnant of the old era where the 90s kids lived
| in the commie blocks and had schools right in their
| neighborhood.
|
| This has changed tho as the families are moving out to
| suburbs which are heavily car centric.
| tsimionescu wrote:
| While things are indeed moving in that direction, at
| least in the biggest city in Eastern Europe (Bucharest)
| its far from reaching the vast majority of the
| population.
| adamsmith143 wrote:
| But it's not abnormal in the rest of the Netherlands
| either. It's pretty ubiquitous.
| aidenn0 wrote:
| What about secondary schools? There is a stretch of road on the
| way to the local Junior High (in California,US) that is
| absolutely not safe to bicycle (I've personally witnessed 3 car
| crashes and a car vs motorcycle crash each of which would have
| also hit a bicyclist had there been one there). Due to a nearby
| freeway and the geography, there aren't a lot of good alternate
| routes. The "next best" option adds 2km to the route, much of
| which is unseparated (other than by paint) by traffic with a
| speed limit of 45mph which regularly travels 50mph (70-80km/h).
| kazen44 wrote:
| most dutch cities have secondary schools which are easily
| bikable by most students. In my personal experience, everyone
| i know biked, including people who had to bike for more then
| an hour to get home. This was roughly 30 years ago. But i
| doubt it changed much.
|
| Mind you, biking is so ingrained in dutch culture that
| alternatives are rarely used unless the distance is either
| too large (more then an hour one way usually) or there is
| some special need why one does not bike. This is especially
| true for teenagers and students, because other forms of
| transportation are either slow or inflexible (public
| transport) or far too expensive (motorized scooter) or not
| legal for them to use yet (a car).
| mcv wrote:
| I think on most Dutch secondary schools, the percentage of
| kids biking to school would be about 99%. Well, some of the
| older ones might ride a moped or something like that.
| Vinnl wrote:
| Heh yeah, when I read the headline my first reaction was "that
| would not be special in the Netherlands", before realising
| that, of course, Assen is a Dutch city.
|
| Edit: see also this fun video comparison of school drop-off
| somewhere in the US and somewhere in the Netherlands:
| https://www.reddit.com/r/kutautos/comments/uau4rw/als_alle_s...
| throwaway22032 wrote:
| That video (US) is super bizarre.
|
| Presumably you could just get out of the car and walk like 50
| metres to the school entrance? What's the point of the queue?
| closeparen wrote:
| Nowhere near enough space for all the parents to park.
| School wouldn't release the kids to search out their
| parents' cars on their own, but must confirm each child is
| released directly to the right parent.
| brnt wrote:
| Oh boy, how do people put up with that drive through?
| dsfyu404ed wrote:
| Selection bias. Nobody who doesn't normally drive in a
| lackadaisical manner or values their time drops their kid
| off at school or picks them up if they can help it.
| mcv wrote:
| My thought was: "Two-thirds? Must be a fairly spread-out area
| then, for so many kids to not walk." I too remember a rule that
| kids living close to school weren't supposed to come by bike.
| unwind wrote:
| I kind of love the Netherlands (long story) and we have a huge
| framed photo from Ikea of a canal in Amsterdam on our kitchen
| wall. Our youngest knows where the picture is from, even though
| he hasn't had the chance to go yet due to
| Covid/environment/finances.
|
| Still, as a parent from Sweden, seeing so many pictures of biking
| kids and _no_ helmets is jarring.
|
| I know that selling bike safety ideas to the Dutch is like
| selling ice to the Innuit, but it's still weirding me out.
|
| Edit: typo.
| marapuru wrote:
| Fwiw I recently bought helmets for my family. There is a bit of
| an uplifting trend for helmets, since a popular tv show spent
| some time promoting them. Or better, spent some time on the
| ridiculousness of not wearing helmets while cycling.
|
| I grew up and still live in the Netherlands.
| unwind wrote:
| That's really interesting! And, I guess I think, good for
| you!
|
| Right after writing my post above I had to google "dutch bike
| helmets" and found stuff like [1] which really makes it very
| clear that you (as a nation, I mean) just really aren't much
| into helmets. Cool that there are exceptions, although of
| course there always are at this level. :)
| leokennis wrote:
| Source: am Dutch.
|
| Sure, helmets would make cycling safer. Helmets would also make
| walking on the sidewalk safer. But I bet you don't wear a
| helmet there. This implies there is some level of risk you're
| willing to take before you wear a helmet.
|
| My theory is that cycling in the Netherlands is safer than it
| is in most countries. Just some factors:
|
| - People mainly cycle for transport, not for sport: you sit
| upright, you go relatively slowly
|
| - Every car driver in the Netherlands is also a cyclist
| sometimes, so people know how cyclists behave and respect them
|
| - Cycling is everywhere: you don't encounter cyclists only in
| the center of big cities, basically every road except (often,
| not always!) highways will have cycle paths in parallel so as a
| car driver you encounter cyclists everywhere and anywhere
|
| - The bicycle infrastructure is fantastic: if possible bike
| lanes are separated from car lanes by greenery or trees or
| something, bike lanes don't cross right next to intersections
| (so you're not in the blind spot of a car making a turn - the
| car already turned and then crosses the bike path) etc.
| heretoo wrote:
| Not comparing, but is it really safe?
| https://www.dutchnews.nl/news/2021/09/cycling-injuries-
| three...
|
| 50,000 serious injuries in one year seems considerable.
| neoglow wrote:
| A Dutch satire program had an item on this
| (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WflYjsaC19g). A lot of
| these injuries is with the elderly and the teenagers. It is
| suggested that this due to the rise of e bikes, which go
| faster.
|
| A helmet should be required for ebikes.
| leokennis wrote:
| I think this is a recent development and it is mostly older
| people who would previously not cycle as much anymore, but
| now drive e-bikes and so are going a lot faster while being
| physically more fragile. I think they were mostly one sided
| incidents (them driving into stuff or slipping).
|
| For those people, I'd indeed recommend or mandate a helmet.
|
| Do consider that in the Netherlands, people cycle
| 15,000,000,000 kilometers per year (that's over 800 km per
| year per citizen, including babies etc.) to put the 50,000
| injuries into perspective.
|
| (Dutch source: https://www.fietsersbond.nl/ons-
| werk/mobiliteit/fietsen-cijf...)
| hoosieree wrote:
| I have a theory that requiring helmets would reduce bicycle
| usage, making people in general less healthy. It would also
| increase the ratio of cars to bikes, making roads more
| dangerous. I think the net effect would be worse outcomes.
|
| I'd love to see evidence of this (either proving or
| disproving) but it seems like a hard thing to measure.
|
| That said, I always wear a helmet when biking, but I never
| wear a helmet when driving, and I am aware of the irony.
| mcv wrote:
| I believe when Australia introduced mandatory helmets,
| bicycle use indeed dropped dramatically. That's
| definitely a big part of why many Dutch are opposed to
| mandatory helmet laws.
|
| Helmets should probably be mandatory for e-bikes, though.
| They go a lot faster, and more importantly: faster than
| people realise.
| skrebbel wrote:
| I don't know about Sweden but my wife is Danish and we live in
| NL. The Danes have the same absolutist attitude to helmets.
| And, well, seeing the average Danish bicycle infrastructure I
| get where they're coming from. Outside some nicer areas in the
| large cities it gets pretty laughable pretty fast. And Denmark
| likes to brag about their bicycle infra!
|
| I'd wear a helmet in most of Denmark too.
| NegativeLatency wrote:
| A common misconception is that helmets protect you from cars,
| according to the helmet manufacturers they are not:
|
| > "There are many misconceptions about helmets," Richter told
| British trade magazine Cycling Industry News on July 6.
|
| > "We do not design helmets specifically to reduce chances or
| severity of injury when impacts involve a car," said Richter.
|
| https://www.forbes.com/sites/carltonreid/2020/07/10/bicycle-...
| semi-extrinsic wrote:
| Whoa, there is a huge difference between "not specifically
| designed to protect against" and "does not protect against".
|
| A bike helmet is not specifically designed to protect against
| a brick falling from a building and hitting your head. But
| would you rather experience such an event with a bike helmet,
| or without?
|
| Also you should take any article singing the praise of MIPS
| for regular bike helmets with a huuuge grain of salt. MIPS as
| it's been designed and tested for motorbike/downhill
| racing/etc. is a definite advantage. But those are all
| systems where the helmet is so tight it's almost glued to
| your head. And if you look up the research papers on MIPS,
| they use test stands with a crash test head _and literally
| glue the helmets to the head before testing_. A bike helmet
| is so far from firmly attached that the 10-15mm rotational
| slip offered by MIPS is obviously pointless.
| stevesimmons wrote:
| I cycle all the time in the Netherlands. When I ride my city
| bike, I never wear a helmet. When I ride my race bike, I always
| do, as do most others.
|
| The two manners of riding are so different. They both feel
| equally safe.
|
| I do have a scar on my nose from falling head first onto the
| road. That was riding my city bike. While carrying a TV. In a
| rainstorm. With no hands on the handlebars. So 100% my fault :)
| pmontra wrote:
| Did the TV survive the crash?
| stevesimmons wrote:
| It did. I somehow threw the TV onto the footpath as I fell.
| Its box and polystyrene packing did their job.
| tigerlily wrote:
| If you practice a bit of judo you learn to keep your head off
| the ground.
| dtech wrote:
| I find it quite jarring to see all the Swedish people walking
| without helmets on those icy streets!
|
| The number of bicycle accidents is quite small and the number
| of serious head injuries even smaller, helmets would save less
| than 5 children yearly [1]. This is mostly due to education,
| both primary school cyclists and driver's license and road
| design separating cars and bicycles.
|
| [1] https://swov.nl/nl/fact/fietshelmen-hoeveel-slachtoffers-
| zou...
| itronitron wrote:
| I've actually thought about wearing a bike helmet while
| walking outside during the winter season. The alternative is
| putting on crampons which seems like more of a hassle but has
| the added benefit of preventing slipping on ice so would also
| protect my wrists and shoulders.
| ozay wrote:
| They don't wear helmets because they aren't zooming around like
| Lance Armstrong. The risk of accidents with head injuries a
| helmet would help against is limited. Same thing why you don't
| wear a helmet when you go by car although an occupants risk of
| head injuries in a typical accident is comparable.
| itronitron wrote:
| You can't really equate safety gear across different modes of
| transportation, otherwise if you wear a seat belt when riding
| in a car then why not wear a seat belt when riding a bicycle?
| taeric wrote:
| Agreed on it being off to see that many kids without helmets.
| I'm curious on what the stats are. Specifically, why are they
| so ok without them?
| ryukafalz wrote:
| The biggest hazard for bike riders is cars, and my
| understanding is that the risk of getting hit by a car is
| much lower in the Netherlands due to a combination of
| infrastructure/legal/cultural differences. (Some of which are
| no doubt intertwined.) It's possible to fall off a bike and
| hit your head while riding all on your own, but it's also
| possible to trip and hit your head while walking - at the
| relatively slow speeds they cycle at there, they seem to not
| worry about it so much.
|
| EDIT: Also traffic calming is pervasive, so even if somehow
| you do get hit by a car it's at a much slower speed and
| therefore much more survivable.
| notch656a wrote:
| Not sure what the data is. I biked 2+ hours almost daily in
| a major US city for a couple years. Every accident I had
| was one where I was in a designated bike lane, and the car
| crossed it to turn or enter a parking lot in an opening.
| Separating cars from bicycles in my personal anecdotes was
| what the danger was, I never had issues when I rode on the
| real road not on a bike lane. Once you're in the bike lane
| it's like you're in another world and cars forget you're
| there (and you can't really ride on the regular road when
| there's a bike lane next to you, as it makes drivers
| hostile).
| climb_stealth wrote:
| Do cars have right of way on turns like that? It's an
| interesting difference between Germany and Australia for
| example.
|
| In Germany bicycles and pedestrians have right of way on
| roundabouts or driveways. So everyone is used to looking
| out for cyclists when entering or exiting a roundabout or
| driveways. It's perfectly natural.
|
| In Australia cyclists and pedestrians don't have right of
| way. Often on foot you have you wait at a roundabout
| until there are no cars. I think this is a much more
| dangerous approach as it makes for building bad habits of
| not having to look out for others.
| notch656a wrote:
| I believe the person going straight in a lane has right-
| of-way over someone trying to turn in front of them
| faster than they can reasonably stop. Bicycles are
| treated as cars, but pedestrians always have right of way
| if on a pedestrian path.
|
| My near misses and accidents generally are because either
| someone tries to quickly get in front of me so they can
| turn in front of me, or because they didn't notice the
| bike lane at all when turning.
|
| I think the Australian rule would be nearly impossible to
| follow in a major city, as it's difficult to predict when
| a car quickly overtaking you may want to "get one over
| you" and gun it and turn into a driveway in front of you,
| which is a major cause for my hits / near misses.
| ryukafalz wrote:
| There is safety in numbers and there's little chance that
| you'll see any significant portion of the population
| mixing with traffic on main streets. If you can't expect
| children and families to ride there, it's not safe
| enough.
|
| On side streets with little car traffic it often does
| make sense not to separate infrastructure, but traffic
| calming is then particularly important.
|
| http://www.aviewfromthecyclepath.com/2010/11/reality-vs-
| myth...
|
| That said:
|
| > Every accident I had was one where I was in a
| designated bike lane, and the car crossed it to turn or
| enter a parking lot in an opening.
|
| A "designated bike lane" that's just a strip of paint is
| also not enough for exactly that reason, and if the bike
| lane (even a protected one) is frequently interrupted by
| curb cuts into parking lots that's likewise not bike-
| friendly design.
| taeric wrote:
| I mean, yes. The biggest risk on the road is cars. So,
| moving off roads and dedicated biking infrastructure is
| already moving the needle a lot.
|
| However, don't under estimate how much you can hurt with a
| low speed fall from a bike.
|
| Also... this is just what I was asking. I was not intending
| my ask as a challenge that they are wrong. I'm genuinely
| interested in the data.
| munk-a wrote:
| It's important not to mystify
| "infrastructure/legal/cultural differences" too much. Too
| often in north america we hear that biking would never work
| over here because of "cultural differences" but the
| netherlands went a rather dramatic shift in infrastructure
| priorities starting in the 70s that's built this biking
| utopia - it's very possible for other parts of the world to
| follow suit!
| ryukafalz wrote:
| Oh certainly, and I didn't mean to imply that it wouldn't
| work here. (In fact I'd very much like it to and have
| been doing whatever I can to push for that.)
| Infrastructure, culture, and law are not static, though
| influencing each can be difficult in its own way. But not
| impossible!
|
| It's striking to look at comparison pictures of cities in
| the Netherlands between the 1970s and today. The old
| photos could just as well be a lot of cities in the US
| today: https://exploring-and-observing-
| cities.org/2016/01/11/amster...
| stefan_ wrote:
| Almost as if helmets are not the magic death prevention tool
| people who argue for the status quo want to sell you on, and
| it's instead the 3 ton machines with powertrains sized to
| satisfy a neighborhood street that cause the overwhelming
| amount of deaths and injuries.
| teekert wrote:
| I think the helmets would just be too much of a hassle, making
| them mainstream would take people off bikes again? It messes
| with your hair, it's hot in summer, difficult to combine with a
| hat in winter, you have to put it somewhere when going places,
| like bars. And make no mistake, here we jump on an off bikes
| all day, I would really hate to have to wear one on a bike. (I
| do wear one when mtb-ing btw!)
|
| I'm 40, lived for all of my life in the Netherlands, I hardly
| saw any accidents, and I never ever saw any accident where a
| helmet would be of any use. Yeah it's anecdotal, but I feel
| it's just safe enough. I feel the same about biking as I do
| about walking. Helmets wouldn't make it safer. But, show me the
| data to convince me otherwise. Still, lets say it makes things
| safer, I wonder if the net effect would still be negative
| because it would drive people into cars, where you don't need a
| (stupid!) helmet.
|
| I think it's difficult for people from other places to imagine
| just how little cars you encounter with good bike paths, and
| how people drive around you when everybody is a "cyclist" (hate
| the word, it's just normal here) and a driver. For example in a
| collision, it's always the car's responsibility [0], because
| pedestrians and people on bikes are considered vulnerable, they
| always get 50-100% off their damages paid. It creates a certain
| culture.
|
| [0] https://www.anwb.nl/juridisch-advies/aanrijding-en-
| dan/aansp...
| undefinedzero wrote:
| > I think the helmets would just be too much of a hassle
|
| While probably true, I think the emphasis is misplaced. The
| primary reason helmets aren't as encouraged as elsewhere is
| the immense bike infrastructure that keeps cyclists safe. The
| risk is much much much smaller than in car focussed places.
| notch656a wrote:
| I left my motorcycle helmet attached to a motorcycle for
| YEARS in high-crime areas and never had it stolen (arguably
| worth more than a bicycle helmet -- but who really wants to
| buy a used helmet). Realize it's an anecdote but honestly I
| don't see the big risk in leaving the helmet on the bike when
| you go in the bar.
| acchow wrote:
| They bike very slowly tho. Almost painfully slowly to me. The
| low speed keeps them safe, even in accidents.
| Someone wrote:
| It's social science, and a 'proper' experiment can't really be
| done, but the scientists expect the gain from making helmets
| mandatory would be more than offset by the loss in health from
| making cycling less popular.
|
| Many people also don't realize that many Dutch cyclists
| typically don't cycle very fast. The average speed of people on
| bicycles is 12.4km/hour
| (https://bicycledutch.wordpress.com/2018/01/02/dutch-
| cycling-...). That's a speed that young runners also can reach
| fairly easily. Should they wear helmets, too on the road?
|
| And those who go faster often _do_ wear helmets.
|
| Recommended reading:
| https://bicycledutch.wordpress.com/2019/08/05/bicycle-helmet...
| xani__ wrote:
| riedel wrote:
| I cycle every day to work in Germany and my 3 year old daughter
| already cycles in the city (not alone obviously). However, I
| would always wear a a helmet and I think it saved me at least
| once from worse. I really wonder how Dutch infrastructure could
| have saved me from getting hit by a 90 year old lady on the way
| to get doctor on city neighborhood road (was fascinating to see
| how the helmet absorbed the energy). It might be rather that
| Dutch drivers learned to share roads with bikes (although I am
| always scared of Dutch bus drivers when the overtake you on a
| bicycle)
| hosh wrote:
| I remember an article about that -- bike ridership is so
| widespread that most drivers have someone in their family
| that bikes, if not a biker themself.
| pharmakom wrote:
| Would you wear a helmet to drive a car? Or walk down the
| steet? Why not?
| JamesianP wrote:
| A car is basically a huge powered helmet.
| Vinnl wrote:
| One part is to _not_ share roads, but to have separate bike
| paths. Physical separation (e.g. trees between cars and
| bikes) is another method. There 's lots of clever things
| infrastructure folks have come up with; Not Just Bikes is the
| classic YouTube channel that details many of them.
| lucb1e wrote:
| > I know that selling bike safety ideas to the Dutch is like
| selling ice to the Innuit
|
| Lol! That's the best saying I've heard in a looong time :D
|
| It's interesting that you love the Netherlands as a Swede. From
| my point of view, it's always the nordics (iceland, norway,
| sweden, finland) that have the insane happiness, social
| mobility, etc. ratings, and I love (at least the mental picture
| of) warm homes in a cold, snowy, foresty climate/environment.
| If y'all spoke English (or Dutch, I guess) over there as a
| primary language, I'm actually quite sure I'd have moved there,
| at least for a couple years. (Currently living in and learning
| German(y) and I find it very hard, so for me the language is
| kind of prohibitive unless I'd be sure I wanted to move away
| from my current life and fully commit to fitting in somewhere
| new.) Living for two months in Finland didn't destroy that
| mental picture at all, and though I was impressed with the
| English being absolutely impeccable from anyone under 60 years
| old, the colloquially used language is clearly a local
| language. A local hacker space was very welcoming, but many
| things are in Swedish/Finnish because that's simply what
| everyone there speaks.
|
| I'd be interested in this 'long story' if you are willing to
| share it!
| samvher wrote:
| As a Dutch person I learned some Swedish and some German
| (both not very well, but enough to go around) and I found
| Swedish significantly easier. It feels more similar to
| Dutch/English in terms of grammar and flow. Just one data
| point, but maybe useful for you to know!
| kazen44 wrote:
| as a dutchman, i once stumbled across some swedes in a bar.
|
| With enough beer, im convinced we would be able to speak
| the same language at a certain point.
| napoleongl wrote:
| Both the Dutch and Swedes (and I guess it goes for Norway and
| Denmark as well) generally speak English. So much so that my
| colleagues from other countries find it a problem in that
| they get very few opportunities to learn Swedish; because
| everyone just switches to English when they are around.
| lucb1e wrote:
| Yes, I know this effect everywhere. Currently at work in
| Germany (to be fair: also because it was previously just
| not practical; I should ask for speaking more german now),
| or when my girlfriend studied in the Netherlands she said
| the same. When I was in Finland, people spoke English
| really really well, but when I looked for an internship,
| there was not much available in the first place, and that
| which there was, all required speaking either Swedish or
| Finnish. (Probably this is better in the capital area, I
| wasn't near there.) But even if people speak it very well
| as a secondary language, you're still limited in making
| friends or finding jobs, even if casual interactions (e.g.
| stores, school/work friends) try to be helpful and speak
| english unless you absolutely insist on using your broken
| version of their language.
| unwind wrote:
| I'm not going to go into the various forms of grass-is-
| greenering that could apply here, but of course (?) I'm aware
| that a lot of Dutch like coming up here too for vacationing
| and such.
|
| About English, that's kind of a point of pride up here
| (English was taught from age 11 when I was that age ~35 years
| ago, but these days it's from age 7 and my oldest kid is
| starting to have classes and understand more and more).
|
| I would say that you can get _very far_ using English in
| Sweden, both in business and in private. Probably quite a few
| Swedish people 's English will start to fail if you e.g. open
| a random kitchen drawer and ask them to name all the things,
| but still. You can get by.
|
| See also references like [1], I'm pretty sure I'm not making
| this up just to rose-tint all the blue and yellow. Or
| something.
|
| [1]: https://studyinsweden.se/blogs/2018/03/26/people-in-
| sweden-s...
| lucb1e wrote:
| Isn't it around that number everywhere? At least if you include
| walking: I can imagine that in high-density housing, many people
| live so close, they don't need any transportation.
|
| It seems like the author just happened to have found an article
| about this new suburb in Assen but that it's actually just
| reporting on the status quo.
| mattnewton wrote:
| As an American this definitely seems exceptional. I grew up in
| rural and suburban areas without sidewalks, and biking/walking
| to school was unheard of. I interpreted this as just one proof
| by example that it could work, and as a call to arms for trying
| it elsewhere.
| bnralt wrote:
| I guess it depends on where in America you are. Around here
| (city), walking and biking to elementary school is pretty
| common. When you get towards middle school and high school,
| the distances get larger, so more students take public
| transportation. School buses are very rare; I don't think
| I've seen them outside of field trips (though I do think some
| students take them).
|
| Driving always seemed like a less common form of
| transportation.
| acchow wrote:
| Here in San Francisco, you have the school physically
| closest to you and you have the school to which you get
| assigned. In most cases, they are not the same. So you end
| up traveling 20-45 minutes by bus. Isn't this the norm in
| the USA? Which is why there are yellow school buses
| everywhere?
| bnralt wrote:
| Here you have the school closest to you that you have the
| right to attend, and then you have the option of being on
| a lottery for schools that a further away. Looking at
| this[1], it seems like San Francisco is similar, unless
| I'm misunderstanding something?
|
| One problem is that in some parts of the city, the public
| schools are so bad that people are trying to move to out
| of boundary schools or charter schools that are further
| away. But the main issue there is not giving people
| functional local schools rather than lack of cycling
| infrastructure (which is actually somewhat developed
| here).
|
| [1] https://www.sfusd.edu/student-assignment-
| policy/tiebreakers/...
| dboreham wrote:
| Counterexample: in our rural Montana town large numbers of
| kids bike to school and many more walk. We do have sidewalks
| and heavy traffic bypasses the town on the interstate.
| thomaslangston wrote:
| Certainly not if you define everywhere as including all of the
| US and Canada.
| lucb1e wrote:
| I meant the Netherlands actually, the country this is about.
| It's like speaking of Medicine Hat[1] specifically, when it's
| actually normal in all of Canada.
|
| [1] actual city name. I chose the one nearest in population
| to Assen and this is honest name.
| https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/4167203
| taeric wrote:
| I think the point of this article is that this could be
| tried other places?
| lucb1e wrote:
| Sure, but why single out a random town instead of just
| using the model that is being applied similarly
| throughout the country? 17 million people is a much
| larger sample size than 60 thousand, ought to be more
| convincing that it can work in various situations.
| taeric wrote:
| That is kind of the first two paragraphs of the article,
| though? Right?
| lucb1e wrote:
| Yes, which feels kind of weird: first mention Assen, then
| start writing about the Netherlands as a whole as though
| that was the topic all along. Idk, maybe it's just me
| rr888 wrote:
| Safe from traffic is one thing. Presumably there aren't homeless
| encampments and junkies walking around. My daughters high school
| teenagers are mostly driven to keep them safe. Last week a
| student was mugged on the way home had her stuff stolen.
| semi-extrinsic wrote:
| Yes, it's a very correct observation that a well functioning
| society should also provide universal healthcare (including
| mental health), a social safety net that limits homelessness to
| the fullest extent possible, decriminalization and free safe
| treatment for hard drug addicts, and urban planning that
| encourages lively neighbourhoods around schools where there are
| always responsible adults close by.
| jonfw wrote:
| Why not solve war and hunger while you're at it?
| vlunkr wrote:
| In a perfect world yes. Unfortunately we can't pick up our
| schools and move them if it turns out to be a poor location.
| trasz wrote:
| rr888 wrote:
| Yes how'd you guess? I dont know if the mugger was homeless
| or a junkie or a regular thief.
| dang wrote:
| Would you please stop posting flamewar comments and
| political/ideological battle comments? It seems to be the
| bulk of what you're posting here. That's abusive: it's not
| what this site is for, and it destroys what it is for. The
| site guidelines specifically ask you not to do this, so
| please stop.
|
| https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
| Tiktaalik wrote:
| maybe the parent should not use demeaning and inhumane
| language like "junkie" just a thought
| tiku wrote:
| This almost never happens in the Netherlands. Also the routes
| to and from schools are so safe because they all take that
| route. Worst thing that can happen is hitting someone else with
| your bike.
| einpoklum wrote:
| If there are pedestrians and cyclists around - which is indeed
| the case when children come to school or go back home - then
| nobody gets mugged, even if there are some junkies or homeless
| people also in the same neighborhood. First, because junkies
| and homeless people are not automatically violent (and the
| Netherlands has a lot less violent crime than the US); second,
| because there are too many witnesses; and third, because unless
| they're cycling, they're not on the bicycle path anyway.
| shagie wrote:
| Hypothetically... lets see, Assen has a population of 68,000 and
| that roughly matches Eau Claire, Wisconsin.
|
| So, hypothetically, lets wave a magic wand and redesign Eau
| Claire to follow the same design plan as Assen.
|
| Would you still have 2/3 of the kids biking to school?
|
| Temperature for 2021: https://www.aos.wisc.edu/~sco/clim-
| history/stations/eau/eau-...
|
| Cumulative snowfall for 2021: https://www.aos.wisc.edu/~sco/clim-
| history/stations/eau/eau-...
|
| Going to weather spark to have a consistent source:
| https://weatherspark.com/y/11595/Average-Weather-in-Eau-Clai...
|
| > The cold season lasts for 3.2 months, from November 28 to March
| 3, with an average daily high temperature below 36degF. The
| coldest month of the year in Eau Claire is January, with an
| average low of 9degF and high of 24degF.
|
| > The snowy period of the year lasts for 5.4 months, from
| November 2 to April 15, with a sliding 31-day snowfall of at
| least 1.0 inches. The month with the most snow in Eau Claire is
| December, with an average snowfall of 4.5 inches.
|
| ---
|
| https://weatherspark.com/y/54846/Average-Weather-in-Assen-Ne...
|
| > The cold season lasts for 3.7 months, from November 19 to March
| 10, with an average daily high temperature below 46degF. The
| coldest month of the year in Assen is January, with an average
| low of 32degF and high of 40degF.
|
| > The snowy period of the year lasts for 1.7 months, from
| December 14 to February 5, with a sliding 31-day snowfall of at
| least 1.0 inches. The month with the most snow in Assen is
| January, with an average snowfall of 1.3 inches.
|
| ---
|
| The biking design and participation is a wonderful design to
| aspire to... it isn't always practical in all climates.
|
| Assen barely gets to freezing temperatures and has a dusting of
| snow.
|
| If one says "oh, that's too far north"... then lets go to St.
| Louis. https://weatherspark.com/y/12083/Average-Weather-in-
| St.-Loui...
|
| > The cold season lasts for 3.0 months, from November 28 to
| February 28, with an average daily high temperature below 50degF.
| The coldest month of the year in St. Louis is January, with an
| average low of 25degF and high of 41degF.
|
| > The snowy period of the year lasts for 3.7 months, from
| November 26 to March 17, with a sliding 31-day snowfall of at
| least 1.0 inches. The month with the most snow in St. Louis is
| January, with an average snowfall of 3.2 inches.
|
| (with the cold season part, note the cold range dips quite a bit
| lower in St. Louis than Assen)
|
| We could continue this with Chicago, Minneapolis, Detroit, Fargo,
| Missoula, Spokane, Salt Lake City... even if we could wave a
| magic wand and redesign the city to be perfectly bikeable it
| wouldn't have the participation like it does in Western Europe.
|
| I'm not saying to ignore the effort to make those infrastructure
| changes (they'd be good), but rather try to avoid the implicit
| "the US is bad because so few cities are designed to allow 2/3 of
| the students to bike to school" because it is impossible to get
| there.
| jeffbee wrote:
| It is truly amazing how you wrote this whole long thing that
| only serves to suggest that you have never left American nor
| ever ridden a bicycle.
| shagie wrote:
| I ride a traveler terratrike - I have difficulty with balance
| and so much prefer a trike. I've been to 40 states within the
| US, 5 Canadian provinces, Japan, England, Ireland, and
| Mexico.
|
| I would prefer people refrain from unsubstantiated attacks on
| my person.
| jackvalentine wrote:
| "Why Canadians Can't Bike in the Winter (but Finnish people
| can)" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uhx-26GfCBU
| xani__ wrote:
| mjmsmith wrote:
| Meanwhile in Portland...
| https://bikeportland.org/2022/09/21/the-alameda-bike-bus-has...
| wishinghand wrote:
| Considering the fact that northern European folks in bike
| oriented cities can do it, I'm sure the folks in Eau Claire can
| prove themselves just as tough.
| shagie wrote:
| My point is that winters in the continental United States are
| significantly different than the winters in Northern Europe.
|
| The infrastructure appropriate for one isn't necessarily
| appropriate for the other.
|
| For what it's worth, Oslo is still 10 degrees F (5.5 degrees
| C) warmer in the middle of winter than Eau Claire.
|
| London, Ontario (used in the video) is further south than
| Madison, WI.
|
| > The cold season lasts for 3.3 months, from December 3 to
| March 13, with an average daily high temperature below
| 38degF. The coldest month of the year in London is January,
| with an average low of 18degF and high of 29degF.
|
| It's a bit nippier than Assen but its quite a bit warmer than
| Eau Claire in the winter.
| vanilla_nut wrote:
| If cities provided separated bike infrastructure and kept
| that infrastructure clear of snow, cyclists can manage it.
| Pogies (https://bikepacking.com/gear/pogies/) are
| incredibly effective for keeping your hands warm; the rest
| of your body can be kept warm in cold temperatures by
| standard wind-resistant gear & the heat generated by your
| body when you exercise.
|
| Studded tires make an enormous difference if you get ice in
| your town.
|
| The problem is not the climate. It is the infrastructure.
| American cities, towns, suburbs, roads, and just about
| everything else are designed for one mode of
| transportation: the car. Even walking is an afterthought --
| ever feel uncertain of how you're supposed to get from your
| car to a business, because there's a sea of parking lots
| right up to the business's front door?
|
| Cars are not scalable. We need to redesign American cities
| for micromobility today.
| bmj wrote:
| (NB: I was, prior to being a fully remote worker, a full
| time cyclo-commuter, and sometimes bike infrastructure
| advocate.)
|
| The problem is partially the infrastructure. My rust belt
| city, or Eau Claire WI, could put in perfect bike and
| pedestrian infrastructure tomorrow, and it would be
| barely used for a generation, or more. Many bike
| advocates advance the wrong approach. Sure, with the
| right gear, anybody could commute in the middle of a
| Wisconsin winter. A better approach would be convinced
| the residents of Eau Claire (or any town, USA) to start
| by riding their bikes when the weather is good. Then
| gradually shift expectations to riding when it is
| raining. Then riding when it is cold. Lather, rinse,
| repeat. I think it would be a huge improvement if 2/3 of
| the residents of my city walked, took the bus, or rode
| their bikes to work five months out of the year. Over
| time, some percentage of those folks would realize that
| they could ride (or walk) when the weather isn't great.
| jackvalentine wrote:
| I don't think a single bike advocate starts from the
| position that "everyone will ride in all seasons from day
| one!"
|
| The solution to get people riding in summer is the same
| as winter... safe infrastructure.
| shagie wrote:
| I believe a lot of that "towns are built for cars" has to
| do with the population density of the surrounding area.
|
| I was using Eau Claire as an example... Eau Claire itself
| has a population of somewhere between 68,000 and 70,000
| depending on when the count was done. 70 is a nice round
| number. Eau Claire is in Eau Claire County which has a
| total population of 105,000 (2/3 the population is in the
| city) an area of 645 square miles (1670 square
| kilometers) and the population density for the county is
| 165 people/square mile (64/ square kilometer).
|
| We head to Assen, and that has a population of 68,000 and
| move up to the province of Drenthe... that has a land
| area of 2634 square kilometers (1017 square miles), a
| total population of 493,000 (nearly 5x the population of
| the county of Eau Claire) and a population density of
| 188/square kilometer (490/ square mile).
|
| This is, where I believe, things get different when doing
| these comparisons. The city of Eau Claire needs to be
| built for the people who aren't in the city (even though
| most live in the city). Its a 90 minute drive there
| before you get to Minneapolis or if you head in the other
| direction, its 90 minutes before you get to Wausau
| (population 40,000).
|
| In Drenthe, there probably isn't any place where you need
| are 50 miles from the nearest hardware store or grocery
| store of reasonable size (according to Google Maps you
| can drive from one end of the province to the other in
| under an hour). Assen to Groningen (p. 200,000) is 1/3
| the distance of Eau Claire to Minneapolis.
|
| With that much higher of a population density it makes a
| lot more sense to optimize for more local transportation.
|
| If we took a Voronoi chart based on cities with a
| population of more than... 40,000 and overlaid that on
| Wisconsin and the Netherlands I am fairly sure that the
| area that each city reaches to is larger in Wisconsin
| _and_ that the population that area is larger - that
| there 's a lot more rural population in Wisconsin.
|
| The consequence of that is that the cities at the centers
| of each area need to be designed primarily with distance
| travel in mind rather than local travel.
|
| The places where those areas are smaller because the
| cities are more closely packed (the large metro areas on
| the coasts in particular) it is more feasible to invest
| in local transportation options because that citywide be
| serving a higher portion of local population rather than
| the "out of town".
|
| In terms of investment in bicycle infrastructure - it is
| those places that will have the greatest return - like
| Portland and Seattle.
|
| Trying to redesign Eau Claire or Wausau for micro
| mobility means that population outside of the urban area
| is very poorly served by the city.
| jackvalentine wrote:
| I agree with your assessment - the transport design for
| many cities is held hostage by the transport choices of
| the surrounding areas.
|
| Which creates a feedback loop. The city is redesigned to
| accomodate car commuters so it's less pleasant to live in
| so more people move to the suburbs so the city is
| redesigned for those extra car commuters so it's less
| pleasant to live in...
| socialismisok wrote:
| I live in Seattle and my kid bikes to school almost every day.
| It's really easy if you say yourself up with an e-bike.
| TrueGeek wrote:
| It really depends on where you live in the US. When I moved
| from Los Angeles to the Atlanta suburbs my daughter rode her
| bike to elementary school like she always had. The school
| principal called and told me it wasn't allowed. I offered to
| ride with her since I work from home and it wouldn't be a
| problem but she wouldn't budge. I offered to fund raise for
| bike racks, setup bike trains, and give safety courses. I tried
| for years and years, through three kids, and never got
| permission. My kids are all grown now except my oldest who does
| indeed ride an e-bike to high school.
| einpoklum wrote:
| What does she mean, "not allowed"? She's not the boss of your
| daughter. Couldn't you just tell the principal she can't
| forbid your daughter from riding a bicycle?
| TrueGeek wrote:
| She said if my daughter showed up by bike she wouldn't be
| allowed into the building. If they saw the bike locked up
| to the fence they'd cut the lock and impound it. She was
| apologetic and said it was a safety issue because everyone
| else drove and it's not safe for students to be around cars
| and busses. I pointed out that everyone else drove because
| they weren't allowing people to walk or ride their bikes.
| It was very frustrating. I was glad when we moved on to Jr
| High.
| acchow wrote:
| It's been a few years since I've been to Seattle, but other
| than trails along the bay I don't recall biking within the city
| itself feeling safe. Were there many protected bike lanes?
| socialismisok wrote:
| Seattle has improved and there are now regular corridors
| through most of the city. You do sometimes have to join an
| arterial or cross it, but I can get from my house to
| downtown, Capitol Hill, or North Seattle/shoreline easily
| with a bike plus the train.
| asdff wrote:
| Any city is safe to bike in if you either stick to
| residential roads or take the entire lane:
|
| https://i.redd.it/x8qqewx3m7l91.png
| walrus wrote:
| Here's Seattle's network of protected bike lanes:
| <https://i.imgur.com/vEDhqoz.png>. Note that many of them are
| flawed in one or more ways:
|
| * There are frequent car crossings at blind alleys and
| driveways, often every 20-30 feet.
|
| * Many are "protected" by flexible posts that are easily
| driven over.
|
| * When protected bike lanes run next to roads, drivers often
| turn across them at intersections without looking.
|
| I generated the map with Overpass Turbo: <https://overpass-
| turbo.eu/s/1mT6>. To make it render nicely, check "Don't
| display small features as POIs" under settings. If you want
| to try it for a different city, drag/zoom it into view and
| hit "Run".
| Maarten88 wrote:
| The surprise in this for people from the Netherlands is that this
| is a surprising statistic for people from other countries. Having
| lived here all my life, my first thought was: 2/3 seems a bit low
| to me. I had to read the article to see that it is a bit lower
| for primary school kids (who can often walk) and actually 90% for
| secondary school age.
|
| The differences between our infrastructure compared to other
| countries somehow grew organically inside the Netherlands, not
| many people here were noticing that this was anything special.
| Even right wing politicians here don't really oppose bike
| infrastructure, except for a few lunatics. Now that everyone here
| "gets" it, it even seems to be accelerating lately. I think we
| must thank our politicians, civil servants, city planners and a
| few very effective activists in the previous century for their
| good work.
| itronitron wrote:
| Maybe next they can think about student housing.
| Maarten88 wrote:
| Yes, there are still many problems in need of a solution in
| the Netherlands. I sometimes wonder if they'd get solved
| better when managed by boring bureaucrats who do thorough
| analysis and slowly implement consistent long-term policies,
| without too much politic influence, like our infrastructure.
| hoosieree wrote:
| I'm American and the photo of the bikes parked at the school
| shocked me. I've never seen so many bikes in one place. I'd
| estimate that bicycle usage in the schools near me at around
| 1%. When I was in high school (800 students) I was one of 4
| people who regularly biked to school.
|
| I'd love to see the US start to organically shift toward the
| infrastructure you have in the Netherlands.
| kazen44 wrote:
| you should see these pictures of bike storage at central
| train stations:
|
| [0] utrecht centraal prior to their major renovation [1]
| airial picture of the a different bike storage at the same
| train station
|
| [0] https://tondejager.files.wordpress.com/2014/04/bikes-in-
| utre... [1] https://www.aerophotostock.com/-/galleries/all/-/
| medias/8098...
| tiku wrote:
| It is not just the bike lanes, but also the gradual
| downsizing of roads to smaller roads. If you bike through the
| cities here, you will never have to drive along a highway for
| example. At least not within a few feet. (Secondary road).
| This gets the speed out of traffic, also prevents cars
| driving into stores at crossroads for example. This doesn't
| happen very much here, once every few years and it is big
| news.
| closeparen wrote:
| I didn't realize how good I had it growing up in a 1920s
| streetcar suburb of a Rust Belt city, where pretty much everyone
| walked or biked to school. Even people who are lukewarm on
| postwar suburbia usually hew to the consensus that it's the ideal
| place to raise kids, and it makes no sense. Children need
| environments they can navigate under their own power.
| divbzero wrote:
| My friend showed me this podcast episode [1] about a Japanese
| TV show where young kids embark on their first independent
| errands. The episode discusses how a mix of street design,
| neighborhood groups, and school policies make many Japanese
| neighborhoods safe enough for children to "navigate under their
| own power" to schools and stores.
|
| [1]: https://99percentinvisible.org/episode/first-errand/
| bcrosby95 wrote:
| It's not just how they are built. I live 1/4 of a mile away
| from my kids' school. There are crossing guards and sidewalks.
| Many people still drive their kid to school in my neighborhood.
| It's crazy to me.
| Baeocystin wrote:
| When I went to high school, I walked, as I lived only a few
| blocks away. So did most kids. During the morning dropoff
| time, it was mostly walkers, bikes, and busses, with a few
| cars here and there.
|
| Today? Proportions are reversed. Just a few walk or bike, and
| an absolute catastrophe of cars dropping off kids. So many
| that they back up in to the surrounding neighborhood. It's
| bizarre to me.
| asdff wrote:
| I wonder if other parents these days would call CPS on you
| if they saw your kid strolling past the car pickup line?
| jandrese wrote:
| You will read the occasional horror story of people
| getting CPS called on them by some out of touch busybody
| because they let their kids walk to the park, but
| honestly that is just as rare as stranger-danger
| abductions. It's on the order of a case every few years.
| Basically nothing worth worrying about.
| bcrosby95 wrote:
| It probably depends upon where you live.
|
| I've seen kids in our neighborhood walking to school
| alone as early as the 3rd grade. And we have a pack of
| young kids - ranging from 2nd grade to kindergarten, that
| regularly roam without adults.
|
| So at least where I live, this doesn't appear to be much
| of a concern.
| jefftk wrote:
| I don't think it would be a problem here (Somerville MA):
| our oldest started walking to school alone in first
| grade, and home in second grade. Along with our middle
| child they are also often around the neighborhood on
| their own, going to the park by themselves or friends'
| houses.
| [deleted]
| spoils19 wrote:
| Driving is the American way and our cities have always been
| built around roads, from the very first day that an
| American landed on the shores. It would actually be un-
| American to shun cars, as it were.
| IIAOPSW wrote:
| As the old patriotic hymn goes
|
| "He is sounding forth the car horn that shall never ever
| cease. He is fastening the seat belt in his drivers side
| reclining seat. As he tried to make men Holy let us drive
| to make men free. His truth is rolling on.
|
| Jesus Christ pick a lane ass-hole. Jesus Christ pick a
| lane ass-hole. Jesus Christ pick a lane ass-hole. And put
| your turn signal on!"
| mikepurvis wrote:
| I live in a downtown century home neighborhood with the
| elementary school right around the corner (Waterloo region,
| Canada), and most kids walk, but there are a handful whose
| parents drop them off on nearby side streets or whatever.
| Possibly on the way to work or something? Obviously there may
| be individual considerations, but overall it just seems nuts
| that anyone would consider that option given how small the
| catchment is.
|
| Anyway, the school has a tiny parking lot (like 20 slots)
| just for staff use, but they're constantly facing calls to
| expand it, add "pull-in" spots, and so on. I'm glad they've
| been able to resist these as I could well imagine many
| parents teetering on the edge of comfort level with walking,
| and potentially switching if it was only slightly more
| convenient to drive or slightly more scary to walk.
| salmonfamine wrote:
| I wonder if there's some sort of game-theory esque problem
| with cars.
|
| As in, the more people drive to a destination, the less
| pleasant and convenient it is to walk the same route, and
| the more attractive driving becomes.
|
| I think, also, the more driving you do in general, the more
| it feels like the default.
| yason wrote:
| It's the school drop-off paradox: https://blogsmedia.lse.
| ac.uk/blogs.dir/120/files/2022/01/Pic...
| sf_parent_1 wrote:
| I have a 1 year old, whom I've been taking to playgrounds
| nearby me here in San Francisco since he was 6 months old. He
| is on his naked feet, in a public space, almost daily and
| gets great joy out of it, and there are lots of super clean,
| really nice facilities here. I've also been biking him since
| he hit 20 pounds, at 9 months.
|
| There are acquaintances of mine closer to 2-10x as wealthy as
| I am, and they have never taken their 1 year olds to a
| playground. They drive everywhere. They don't childproof
| their homes, they are filled with designer furniture. They
| have big playpens. They're definitely elite educated. They
| are certainly aware of the benefits of this kind of
| development / play for their children. They own all the same
| Wirecutter approved crap as I do, so they are online, they
| have read this stuff.
|
| These are cultural differences. They are not motivated by
| racism or something like that - you know, potentially
| encountering the "other" at the playground is not really what
| it's about.
|
| People feel the outside world is _dirty_ and their babies are
| _clean_ and that dirt is _stress_. Imagine this for 10 years.
| You will be driving your kids a quarter of a mile.
|
| The best thing to do would be a viral Instagram momfluencer
| campaign. This is just how the "clean" people think and
| consume. You do not comprehend how stressful children are for
| this group. It's bimodal.
| [deleted]
| ryukafalz wrote:
| I just bought a house in a streetcar suburb of Philadelphia,
| and this is among the reasons why. I've lived in some places
| that were more walkable and some places that were more car-
| dependent, and I know for sure that when I'm raising kids I
| want them to be able to get around on their own. I (mostly) had
| that benefit growing up and I don't want to deny that to them.
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