[HN Gopher] On the cheap, like a local, and without a lot of lug...
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On the cheap, like a local, and without a lot of luggage
Author : brandrick
Score : 307 points
Date : 2022-10-14 12:41 UTC (10 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (walkingtheworld.substack.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (walkingtheworld.substack.com)
| elif wrote:
| All this to say "I'm a contrarian"
|
| I don't think most people legitimately enjoy "empty military
| museums" "walking across town aimlessly twice" "visiting in bad
| weather" "watching bad soccer matches" "eating at the same place
| three quarters of meals for 8 weeks"
|
| I do 4-8 month backpacking trips semi-regularly and try to visit
| new countries whenever possible... But even I can't find a single
| piece of appreciable advice from this whole read.
| dang wrote:
| > All this to say "I'm a contrarian"
|
| " _Please don 't post shallow dismissals, especially of other
| people's work._":
| https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
|
| Arnade is one of the more interesting writers online these
| days. Tastes vary, of course, but let's try to avoid the
| middlebrow dismissal thing here. Your comment would be fine
| without that first bit.
| localhost wrote:
| People travel for different reasons, and that's OK. Chris'
| reasons are stated in his post:
|
| "This style of travel, of aiming to be a local, isn't for
| everyone. I'm blessed with a lot of free time, and it's best
| done in weeks, not days."
|
| And
|
| "Traveling is my education, so I treat the question like
| choosing which course to take. What do I want to learn about
| this semester? For me, currently that's faith and religion. So
| I've been trying to go to places of deep faith, and ones
| different from what I'm familiar with. To see faith as it's
| practiced by the average follower, not by the high priests, or
| the most sacrosanct. The local mosque rather than the Blue
| mosque"
|
| He really does want to create relationships with the people in
| the places that he visits. And he's done that for years. His
| book Dignity chronicles a lot of his writing about the
| differences between the "front of the classroom" and the "back
| of the classroom" people. He focuses on trying to just listen
| and understand how other people live rather than sitting back
| and judging them based on tiny snippets of their worlds that
| you see in places like the news.
|
| So this is very much on brand for him, and I applaud him for
| sharing how he does what he does with us. And FWIW he did come
| from a very Western elite background as well: PhD in particle
| physics, bond trader on Wall Street before escaping that life
| at considerable personal cost to live this life of trying to
| show us how others live.
| [deleted]
| [deleted]
| randomdata wrote:
| _> I don 't think most people legitimately enjoy "empty
| military museums" "walking across town aimlessly twice"_
|
| Not in and of itself, you are right, but I do enjoy the
| happenstance encounters along the way. Like the time I was
| aimlessly walking through a neighbourhood in a far off city,
| heard someone holler in my direction, and out of that was
| invited in to join their barbecue. I don't remember the rest of
| the walk at all, but I sure do remember the fun people I met
| and the great time I had there.
| antihero wrote:
| Yep, you have to create situations with potential for weird
| and wonderful stuff to happen. If you're hell bent on
| following a rigid plan there's no cracks in between for the
| plants to grow.
| Chris_arnade wrote:
| So I guess compared to you I really am a contrarian.
| [deleted]
| kotlin2 wrote:
| You travel a lot and you don't walk around town aimlessly?
| That's the best part.
| itake wrote:
| I've cut that down a bit. When I wondered in old town
| Mombasa, Kenya last year, some people got out of a taxi and
| warned me to turn around and go back because I was in a very
| dangerous area for tourists. It was certainly quiet, but it
| was clean in the city.
|
| Living in Seattle, there are certain parts of downtown that I
| would normally feel comfortable walking through but was
| warned by locals about gun and drug violence.
|
| There are many examples of lost tourists in Mexico or South
| America that get approached by drug traffickers on YouTube.
|
| It is extremely difficult to go wrong in Vietnam, but there
| are many places that appear peaceful but are actually run by
| crime.
| kurthr wrote:
| I drove a foreign friend through SouthCentral (where the
| riots started) in the mid 90s. She really liked the
| neighborhood with big streets and palm trees. I pointed out
| the bars on the windows and she said her homes had all had
| bars on the windows growing up. She also liked that there
| were a lot more people hanging out, until I pointed out it
| was a school day and the kids on the corner ought to be
| there instead. Also, that I was blowing stop signs didn't
| bother her, until I mentioned that we would be expected to
| buy crack, if we stopped.
|
| Of course when I visited her home town and walked up a hill
| for the view one afternoon, I didn't think that much about
| a syringes off the side of the trail, but her family lost
| their minds that I had been in the most dangerous part of
| the city, "people are killed there all the time".
|
| We are terrible about judging dangerous areas outside of
| our cultural experience. Many westerner's can't even
| identify a RedLight area in Asia, "Why are all those women
| wearing such short dresses?", "all those girls (actually
| boys) are really dressed up nice".
| spfzero wrote:
| I guess there are more than one type of people. Some people
| like to watch sports for the individual performance of top
| athletes. Other people, love to watch the game, and to them it
| doesn't matter much whether the players are in the top 0.01%.
| Try watching a high school baseball game, and see whether you
| enjoy the experience as much, or more, than a major league
| game. Errors just add to the fun!
| yodsanklai wrote:
| I think there's a middle ground. Nowadays, with exponential
| growth in tourism, the most famous places can feel a bit
| hellish if you don't like crowds. Without going to extremes,
| it's worth looking for slightly less popular options or
| avoiding peak times, even if that means getting suboptimal
| weather.
| wongarsu wrote:
| Being a regular at a small selection of bars or restaurants is
| just good advice on how to make friends. I assume the same can
| be said about pretending to be an avid fan of a bad soccer
| team.
|
| You could title the blog post "I care about the people, not the
| place. This is how that affects my travels".
| jccalhoun wrote:
| I'm curious what you do like to do while traveling?
|
| I would much rather go to an empty museum than something
| stuffed full of people like the Louvre and I would much rather
| go to a local sporting even than a Lakers game or something
| like that.
| maire wrote:
| I also would not go exactly where the author goes, or do what
| the author does, but I appreciate the stimulation of being
| taken out of the pre-packaged presentation and into reality.
|
| You are a backpacker so you already embrace the spirit of the
| article. You already have a purpose to your trip that takes you
| outside of tourist traps. Tourism packages destinations so they
| all start to look the same.
|
| You are not a contrarian. You have an alternate path to the
| same goal.
|
| You can even do this locally (no need to travel). My husband
| and I started biking and often this takes us to unseen parts of
| our own community.
| e1g wrote:
| I imagine someone visiting my "home" cities using that
| strategy, and it's hilarious how wildly incorrect and poor
| their experience of these places would be. Like a local? Ok,
| just not like any local I've ever met living here.
| Cthulhu_ wrote:
| I mean looking around where I live (a quiet, fairly middle
| class suburb), I'm sure they would get bored pretty quickly.
| There's no stores or landmarks here, just some playgrounds
| and bits of greenery. People live here, they do business and
| entertainment elsewhere.
| notahacker wrote:
| "Living like a local" in most places means spending the
| majority of your waking hours working to pay rent and much of
| the rest of it doing household chores, and your rare trips
| out being more likely to be to McDonalds than to enjoy the
| local cuisine...
| randomdata wrote:
| That's how I like to travel. Stay with someone, help with
| their chores, go to work when they do (the benefits of
| WFH), basically mirror the life they live. Those rare trips
| get compressed somewhat, largely because being able to
| share the experience with the host means that there is
| greater desire to make those rare trips happen while I am
| there as a guest, but not excessively.
| hunter-gatherer wrote:
| There used to be (maybe still is) a pretty robust couch
| surfing crowd in the days before airbnb. I did a decent
| amount of traveling that way in my 20s around the world
| and was able to accomplish this that way. Good times.
| bombcar wrote:
| Anyone who has ever been a local knows that locals spend time
| living their life; they rarely go to museums, etc in their
| own town; and if they do they probably go to specific ones
| multiple times (the ones that go with their hobbies, say).
|
| There _is_ something to "not being a stereotypical tourist"
| but that's easy enough to do by being polite, and paying
| attention to what is going on, and wandering off the beaten
| path now and then.
|
| Visiting off-season can be a great deal, especially if you're
| not concerned with weather (for example, if you're going to
| be visiting museums in Rome, they will be open during the
| rain as well as the shine).
| hooverd wrote:
| I'm very aware of the nature of my relationship as a
| tourist, but I do want to be an active participant and not
| a passive observer.
| [deleted]
| [deleted]
| unethical_ban wrote:
| The writing just felt "off". To me. Like the incomplete
| sentences. Mostly.
|
| I get what the writer is getting at, and I think some of his
| ideas are fine. I envy his travel time. And I'll have to make
| my way to the tips on packing, because the one time I did go
| overseas, I _way_ overpacked.
|
| FWIW I do enjoy walking around town aimlessly - if you haven't
| done it, you should try. It's how I've experienced Boston, New
| York, Munich, Belgrade and San Francisco. Of course I find a
| few places online that I should check out, like the fortress in
| Belgrade or the Eisbock and gardens in Munich. But "aimless
| walking" through ubran areas is the essence of peace for me. I
| am rarely happier.
| ghaff wrote:
| >the one time I did go overseas, I way overpacked.
|
| For urban/semi-urban travel (i.e. don't require a lot of
| specialized gear/just in case supplies) carry-on is pretty
| doable for most people--though I wouldn't go as far as tiny
| backpack. It requires a certain mindset. You're not going to
| have a lot of outfits and may be dressed on the downscale
| side if you go to nice restaurants, etc. Make a lot of things
| do double/triple duty. You may be washing some clothes in the
| hotel sink. You're prepared to buy something you need in a
| pinch.
|
| I'm not fanatical about it and do carry enough stuff to want
| to drop off a bag wherever I'm staying but rarely check
| luggage either.
| unethical_ban wrote:
| Indeed. I bought an bag from $fancybrand at REI that
| doubles as backpack and luggage. It is compressible and is
| about as large as a carryon bag can be.
|
| When I travel via air, I wear the least compressible shoes
| possible (boots) on the plane and squeeze loafers or tennis
| shoes in the bag. My blue jeans are upscale enough to look
| casual but also look well at dinner. And yes, at least one
| nice shirt is needed for dining out or looking decent at a
| bar.
| ghaff wrote:
| My standard is a 40L travel backpack and a compact
| shoulder bag that can hold a laptop and/or stuff for
| walking around town for the day.
|
| Recently (pre-pandemic) when I was doing a lot of travel
| I did optimize my clothing somewhat for synthetics and
| merino wool that could be easily washed and dried
| quickly. And, yes, I usually have walking shoes--whether
| they're trail shoes or leather walking shoes depends on
| the trip and some sort of very compact light shoe as
| backup etc. Also a couple little kits that have all sorts
| of cables, repair items, basic first aid...
| Scene_Cast2 wrote:
| So, two counterpoints. One is that although most people
| probably won't enjoy it, enough of a fraction will.
|
| The other - just like I don't follow Richard Stallman's
| extremism but find some of his ideas interesting, I think she
| of the mentality in the blog post could be applicable to most
| people. For example, staying in a hip neighborhood in Paris for
| a couple of weeks but taking half a day to visit some niche
| "people just live here" suburbs or countryside.
| openfuture wrote:
| Because, as you no doubt already know, the only useful advice
| is "just do it" - the whole point is that you are more capable
| than you think (or I guess not you since you've already put
| yourself to the test I suspect).
| glonq wrote:
| I'm not a contrarian, but I to tend to second-guess the bang
| for the buck out of typical tourist activities.
|
| My favorite activities in Paris were 'not going to the louvre'
| and 'not going up the eiffel tower' :)
| justnotworthit wrote:
| Are you collecting "local" trophies? The quaint lives of
| indigenous grandmas and blue collar workers? Are they the "real"
| ones whose wisdom you absorb? Do they stop being real when they
| enter a chain restuarant?
|
| Some locals (as if they're museum artifacts!) don't live cheaply;
| or have learned your language; or are overeducated; or buy in
| bulk; or like to travel too (can a local travel?); Are they not
| authentic? Not able to teach you something? You've heard from
| them already, I guess.
| a-user-you-like wrote:
| We'll this is one way to tell the poor people who gad their money
| inflated away by the fed printer, "get used to a lower standard
| of life"!
| throw7 wrote:
| Walking around is great, but I think it's a good idea to
| generally be aware of "unsafe" parts of town. If you think about
| your own local city, you would know areas to avoid, but, hey, if
| that's your thing, then go for it.
| steele wrote:
| Orientalism as struggle tourism
| fritztastic wrote:
| #facts
| invalidusernam3 wrote:
| The part about visas is purely from an American perspective. I
| always find it weird when people write assuming everyone reading
| will be American. It's extra surprising when the person is a
| supposed travel guru.
| Bakary wrote:
| It's not that strange. They are writing a paid newsletter
| oriented towards Americans, which is why it has that "Live,
| laugh, love" tinge to it. Besides, you could say an endless
| number of troubled audiences might read the article.
| Handicapped folks, parents with needy and noisy children,
| depressed/repressed engineers who don't leave their house, and
| thousands of other profiles for whom travel is but a distant
| dream. You just have to write and not worry about all that.
| Heck, the people who can't travel might enjoy the escapism.
| gniv wrote:
| I had discovered the author through his series on Istanbul, which
| I thought was interesting and insightful:
| https://walkingtheworld.substack.com/p/walking-istanbul-part...
| PopAlongKid wrote:
| >Next time you travel, when you get home, unpack and see what you
| didn't use. You'll be surprised how much you've overpacked.
|
| >I also bring lots of cash
|
| Best travel advice I ever received, pre-Internet era (but still
| relevant):
|
| Bring twice as much money, and half as many clothes, as you think
| you are going to need.
| smoovb wrote:
| A Buddhist monk might call this kind of travel extravagant.
| blacklion wrote:
| Hanoi as off-beaten path in Vietnam? Ok, I see what you did here.
| rippercushions wrote:
| Some of this advice is good, some of it is bizarre:
|
| > _I prefer to travel to a city the time of year its most
| uncomfortable. So like Montreal in the winter, or New Delhi in
| the summer. I want to see a place when it's at the apogee of its
| essence, not when it's the most comfortable. A kinda, if you are
| going to do X really do X thing. It's also when it's a lot
| cheaper._
|
| No, sorry, if you visit New Delhi in May, Tokyo in August or
| Montreal in February, you're going to have a pretty miserable
| time.
| ehnto wrote:
| I guess it depends on your sensibilities. Tokyo in the summer
| matches where I live in the summer, so it's no real change.
| Also I'd say weather is all part of the experience. Places like
| Sapporo or Sendai are great to visit in the winter, because you
| get a real winter experience. Something we don't get in my
| country.
|
| Most countries have more than 4 season in practical terms
| though, and going during the "seasons inbetween" is my
| recommendation. In Australia, the indigenous have up to 6
| different seasons they identified depending on the
| location/tribe, and they have more nuanced events expected for
| each season. Most countries are like that in real terms, so
| intimate knowledge can get you a great budget off-season
| holiday experience.
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indigenous_Australian_seasons
| blamazon wrote:
| I was in Japan during the hottest part of the year pre-pandemic
| and it was delightful. The cicadas from anime are a real thing,
| not sure why that surprised me exactly but I loved the vibe. I
| experienced how an onsen visit can completely refresh me in any
| weather - so interesting how steeping in super hot water makes
| me feel better in super hot weather. I bought a neck towel with
| a fun waving cat print and shopkeepers watering plants always
| offered to water my neck towel. Always ice cold water. My hikes
| were made all the more satisfying under the intense heat. In
| the moment you're hot and sweaty, but afterwards you are washed
| and air conditioned and drinking ice cold beer and life is so
| much sweeter.
| Cthulhu_ wrote:
| I'd probably be okay with that, but I don't like being
| uncomfortable. My girlfriend gets heat stroke when
| temperatures go over 25 degrees celsius, so that's a definite
| nope. Still want to visit Japan at some point though.
| prottog wrote:
| Where is your girlfriend from, Antarctica? I'd be hard-
| pressed to find many people who would find 25oC unpleasant,
| even with high humidity.
| pxx wrote:
| I find 25C fairly unpleasant and definitely "warm."
|
| OSHA recommends offices to be cooled below that point,
| with 24C/76F being the upper end of acceptable. Some of
| this observation is also dependent on metabolic rate,
| which makes opinions on this somewhat gender-skewed.
| wirthjason wrote:
| If you visit Chicago in the winter, the absolute worst part of
| the year, you'll miss what makes Chicago great.
|
| The beautiful summers are so great it makes the winters
| tolerable.
|
| For example I always take visitors on a river/lake boat tour.
| Even though I grew up here it always blows my mind mind. The
| problems is those are completely shut down in the winter.
|
| If someone wanted to visit me in the winter and "act like a
| local" I don't know what I would suggest, maybe stay indoors
| where it's warm.
| bombcar wrote:
| I think there's "off season" and there's "midwest in January"
| - you can aim to visit Chicago in the very early spring or
| late fall just as the boat tours begin or end.
|
| As in all cases, careful research can reveal opportune times
| that you can balance with your other goals. If you want to
| see the cherry blossoms in Japan, you're stuck to a very
| particular time, for example; but I don't think they put away
| Mt Fiji until very late in winter.
| rippercushions wrote:
| Mt Fuji is best _seen_ in winter, when the air is clear and
| it can be seen from far away. If you actually want to climb
| it, you 're limited to a brief season of a couple of months
| in midsummer.
| kritiko wrote:
| I was in Chicago in mid-May a few years ago and took a boat
| tour. The weather was still very cold and windy and it
| ended up being pretty miserable!
|
| I'd still recommend it. But it taught me to pack based on
| the weather forecast and historical weather. I make sure to
| bring a warm and dry enough outer layers that I can sit
| outside for an extended period.
| bombcar wrote:
| And one of the best things you can do "as a local" is ...
| buying weather-appropriate clothes you forgot! Almost all
| cities have thrift stores or equivalent, too, which can
| be even more fun.
| zach_garwood wrote:
| This is precisely the comment I was going to make. If you
| want to come to Chocago in the "off season", you're more than
| welcome, but you'll just be as miserable and bored as the
| rest of us locals.
| joncp wrote:
| I'd tweak the advice: go in the shoulder seasons.
| ghaff wrote:
| And in the US and much of Europe, school and general vacation
| schedules play a role as well. September and October tend to
| be really good times to visit a lot of places that are packed
| in July and August--and the weather is often even better. Get
| into the winter and it's at least a different experience out
| of doors and may not even be really doable for the casual
| visitor (though of course cities are always visitable to some
| degree).
| brandall10 wrote:
| Exactly, that's generally my tact on my digital nomad
| adventures... try to avoid peak season, but don't go in the
| middle of winter/summer in a seasonal area
| Chris_arnade wrote:
| Had a great time in Montreal in February. Great time in Hanoi
| in July!
| cptn_badass wrote:
| The thing is even locals will have a greater time during the
| nicer times. Using Montreal, where I was living until a few
| years ago, is a much nicer place to wander around when
| there's no snow. It's a colourful city, lively and full of
| small and big activity to do, so you can get by with the sort
| of tourism you described in high season (summer), but also
| end of spring and early fall.
|
| In the winter, it's a cold, wet and relatively low
| interaction time of the year. I assume some place have a
| high, low and dead season for tourism, and I personally aim
| for low, but to each their own. Quebec in general is a great
| place for winter vacation, just have to go outside Montreal
| island.
| MerelyMortal wrote:
| Maybe for someone who is always used to A/C or central heating.
|
| For someone who has experience with such weather and has
| adapted to it, it's not a big deal.
|
| I wouldn't presume to tell other people how they should feel,
| but giving them a head's up that it may be miserable if they're
| not ready for it is wise.
| rippercushions wrote:
| Delhi hit 49 deg C this May. I don't think it's humanly
| possible to adapt to this kind of temperature.
| Freak_NL wrote:
| Certainly not if you come from a region where 35degC is
| already at the extreme end.
| hinoki wrote:
| Tokyo had a few days this last august with lethal wet bulb
| temperatures. I assume Delhi would be similar.
|
| Winter in Montreal just needs the right clothing, but then
| you're not packing light. A proper winter coat, gloves,
| boots, etc. will need way more space than exists in that tiny
| backpack.
| birdman3131 wrote:
| This depends on the person. Looking at this past febuary it
| had a min of -4F.
|
| We had similar in AR back in 21 and I was outside in a
| tshirt or if more than 10 minutes the thinnest windbreaker
| ever. (Single layer of plastic and compresses to a baseball
| size or so.) I might go to a hoody at -20 but not sure even
| then.
| saint_fiasco wrote:
| You can buy the right clothing in Montreal. Since the
| stores in Montreal sell to people in Montreal, the right
| clothing will be cheap and easy to find.
| madcaptenor wrote:
| I didn't plan it, but I did this once in Bergen, Norway.
| Showed up and immediately got soaked by the rain (I think
| I had a pathetic little umbrella). Noticed that most
| people outside seemed okay with the rain and had nice
| rain jackets. Found a store, bought a nice rain jacket.
| It comes in handy now when my kid wants to play in the
| rain and I don't want to be miserable afterwards.
| raverbashing wrote:
| Sure. Enjoy walking up to the stores in -20C (or -5F) in
| your light clothes from home (and before someone goes
| "but actually I'm gonna rent a car" suuure you think that
| will solve all your problems. sure)
|
| Easy yes, cheap, not so much.
| Swizec wrote:
| > the right clothing will be cheap and easy to find
|
| Tell me you've never lived in a place with actual winter
| without telling me. The clothes aimed at locals are
| designed to be a 5 to 10 year investment. Not a jacket
| you buy to throw away in spring.
|
| That said, you are right that unless you're in a place
| like that, the correct gear isn't even available for you
| to buy.
| saint_fiasco wrote:
| Of course I don't live in a country that has actual
| winter, that's the point.
|
| If I buy winter clothes in my home country, the clothes
| will be ugly, expensive, and I have no way to make sure
| if they even work for their intended purpose. It's too
| hot here.
|
| But when I go to countries that have actual winters,
| especially First World countries, then I can find decent
| winter clothes even in, say, a Target.
|
| > The clothes aimed at locals are designed to be a 5 to
| 10 year investment
|
| Not if you shop at Target :)
| shagie wrote:
| Taking a quick look at Target's winter coat selection for
| men... the coats that are appropriate for December -
| February in Chicago are still in the $150+ range price
| there. There are some in the $100 that wouldn't be awful
| for going a block... maybe two... but I wouldn't want to
| be wearing them if there was a substantial wind, snow, or
| if I found that I needed to turn around and go back to
| the bus stop and wait for the next bus.
|
| We're comparing https://www.target.com/p/cutter-buck-
| mission-ridge-repreve-e... (and honestly, the puffy
| jackets are... to me, as a local to the upper midwest,
| those... they're not what you see many locals wearing...
| some, yes... but not many) to things in
| https://www.rei.com/c/snow-jackets?ir=category%3Asnow-
| jacket...
| saint_fiasco wrote:
| When I went to Minneapolis in winter a few years ago I
| brought lots of winter clothes. I ended up replacing most
| of it with cheap clothes from Target, except the coat and
| the boots.
| Bakary wrote:
| My own experience is that in Canada and northern US
| states cheap and high quality winter goods are easy to
| find. Usually used.
| hinoki wrote:
| You could probably get something used, but it would be a
| bit of a hassle. Or another way to experience the city
| like a local.
|
| But while you're shopping, and the trip in from the
| airport would be pretty miserable.
| shagie wrote:
| I'd tend to avoid buying used long underwear or wool
| socks.
|
| The "cheap, serviceable, but used" is... fairly picked
| over by the locals (and especially the homeless).
|
| Consider San Francisco for a moment and the daily
| occasion of tourists who suddenly find that the fog
| rolling in the evening is cold and then buy the "cheap"
| (but horribly marked up) jackets that aren't the right
| size in which they stand out like sore thumbs.
|
| Or they could go to the Salvation Army store and buy a
| winter jacket - consider the availability of them there.
|
| Or they could go to REI or Farm and Fleet (I know there
| aren't any F&F in SF) and buy a new winter jacket there.
|
| After childhood, locals have winter clothes that often
| last 5-10 years or more (and they pay for durability). My
| winter jackets are from '10 (I've got a medium weight
| photographer's jacket that I got in Keeble & Shuchat in
| '01 that I still wear... wish I could find something like
| it again). My father's winter jackets are in the 10-20
| year range.
|
| I'm also going to note the plural. Locals will often have
| two or three "winter" jackets depending on the weather.
|
| The only time you get a jacket for a season that is cheap
| is for a child who is going to outgrow it by the next
| winter.
| germinalphrase wrote:
| You can get pretty far with a thick wool base layer,
| packable down jacket, and a wool hat/mittens/socks. Maybe
| not ultralight one bag travel, but with some reasonable
| clothing choices - not terrible.
| prottog wrote:
| Pack nothing but your American Express and just buy
| everything you need at the destination! That's one way to
| pack light ;-)
| charbull wrote:
| But then your spending your time at the mall instead of
| exploring
| openfuture wrote:
| Well you aren't fully packed unless you also pack an
| income source to refill the card, travelling (at least
| for a lot of "true" travellers) is about finding a
| sustainable means of "going infinite" (to borrow MTG
| terminology).
| prmoustache wrote:
| > A proper winter coat, gloves, boots, etc. will need way
| more space than exists in that tiny backpack.
|
| Depending on where you live it might be winter already
| there too so not necessarily a problem as you already wear
| the shit and remove what you don't need during the flight.
| Otherwise you just have to wear them when you enter the
| plane and put them back in the ikea bag that was in the
| coat's pocket the rest of the time.
| ghaff wrote:
| I agree with that.
|
| I've spent a few weeks in Tokyo and Kyoto mid summer
| (though less extreme I guess than this summer) because of
| business trips and you can "manage"--in the sense that you
| can limit activities during the hottest parts of the day or
| just in general--but I don't really recommend picking
| visits at those times unless you have some specific reason
| to.
|
| Montreal in winter on the other hand is fine. But, as you
| say, you need the right clothing which can be reasonably
| compact but isn't going to fit in tiny luggage. (And
| activities will be at least somewhat different from in
| summer.)
|
| I'm a fairly compact traveler in general (just carry-on
| usually) and you can get off with a lot in temperate to
| warm climates in urban locations where you don't need to
| dress up. But I also don't like to pack only those things
| that I'm sure I need. For example, I have a little kit bag
| of miscellaneous stuff I mostly don't need but am sometimes
| glad I have.
| triceratops wrote:
| Delhi is quite dry though.
| rtanks wrote:
| Agreed
| mvexel wrote:
| I think it actually makes sense, but perhaps more so for
| "traditional" tourism. I lived in Amsterdam for 20 or so years.
| I found winter to be positively miserable: cold, rainy and
| dark. But it is the best time of year to see tourist highlights
| like the Anne Frank House, Rijksmuseum etc. Not as much waiting
| and crowding. The old town in general felt less like an open
| air museum. Not sure if this still holds true, it's been over a
| decade since I moved away.
| dominotw wrote:
| Maybe around the edges of peak season is better option?
|
| Skiing in colorado is best end of March into April. Crowds are
| completely gone and snow is the best.
| throw_lfnsooemd wrote:
| IMO this misses out on how to create deep connections with
| people.
|
| What I often do is meet people through Grindr and try to get a
| short term romance. The relationships that ensure are quite
| profound and it creates a very special connection with the place.
| Maybe through the eyes of the person that you've met.
| state_less wrote:
| Another benefit of packing light is that you can rent a
| motorcycle and carry your kit cross-country without much trouble.
|
| I like covering a lot of ground and coming and going whenever it
| suits me.
| pengaru wrote:
| pro-tip: Traveling light/backpacking is _far_ simpler in a fasted
| state.
|
| Now whenever I go on a multi-day trip I'll deliberately pack on a
| few extra pounds before departing while in keto mode. From there
| it's a painless transition to simply not eating, and after 48hrs
| it feels like a potentially infinite modus operandi. No need for
| pooping in random foreign places and less demand for bathing
| daily, no need to carry bulky/heavy food... These problems are
| effectively reduced to just drinking water and finding places to
| pee.
| samatman wrote:
| Eating is a top five reason for me to travel, maybe top three.
|
| I know, not everyone's like me, that's fine. "Just don't eat,
| it'll make your vacation easier" is nonetheless one of the
| stranger life hacks I've seen proposed.
|
| I think you're saying this with a straight face?
| pengaru wrote:
| > I think you're saying this with a straight face?
|
| I'm definitely saying it with a straight face, but I also
| ceased abusing food as entertainment and a primary source of
| short-term happiness over a decade ago.
|
| Except what I'm referring to is _traveling_ , as in, actually
| in-transit.
|
| If you're boarding a plane to spend just one night somewhere,
| then yes I suppose I'm suggesting just fast the entire trip.
| That's not a form of travel I engage in. Obviously while
| visiting a foreign place for months I'm not suggesting you
| abstain from eating the entire time - it's impractical and
| missing the cultural experience.
|
| What I _am_ saying is when you 're hoofing it days with a
| backpack, or boarding a 52-hr train ride, or bikepacking a
| couple days, it's substantially more pleasant in a fasted
| state. No bulky food to carry and you won't have a dirty
| bum/as much want for a bath.
|
| For example I'll be riding the Zephyr from IL to CA (~2.3
| days) at the end of the month, followed by a 60-mile bike
| ride from the Sacramento Valley train station, east up into
| the Sierra Nevada. I'll eat a few whole chickens in the days
| leading up to the train ride, and won't eat again until
| arriving at my destination in the Sierra Nevada. The train
| ride won't require #2 bathroom breaks fasted, and the bike
| ride will be 100% adipose-fueled, light, and way more fun in
| that state. Of course I'll be eating meals with friends in CA
| over the following months though.
| seydor wrote:
| Travel is easy now. You don't need to ask locals, you can't get
| lost, and only a few remote places have anthropologic interest.
| The author travels for entertainment, it is certainly a time-
| consuming kind with slow reward's but as time goes by i wonder if
| travel will simply go out of fashion, as every place looks alike.
| We have google earth to explore even remote dangerous favelas,
| (accompanied by police). Tech is making travel a pure exercise in
| movement, without need or purpose
| ilikecakeandpie wrote:
| You can absolutely get lost if you are super reliant on your
| phone and it is inaccessible or you go somewhere with limited
| service and you didn't download offline maps.
| em-bee wrote:
| not if they have public transport
| virgildotcodes wrote:
| I mean, I think there is a difference between being somewhere
| and looking at pictures of it on google earth, akin to having
| sex versus watching porn, being in love versus reading about
| love, eating spicy food versus watching people do it on Hot
| Ones etc.
| seydor wrote:
| That was not my point, and there are gradations in those
| analogies. Cookie-cutter tourist vacations are not much
| different than watching the corresponding youtube
| travelogues, except for the smells, because they are so
| stereotypical. There is something interesting to traveling
| but i wonder how much value there is in it anymore. The
| author himself said that traveling is like fiction to him.
| Markoff wrote:
| How to travel on the cheap
|
| Author uses Airbnb. /facepalm
|
| I have one advice for you - don't use Airbnb, small guesthouses
| are way cheaper than any Airbnb in SEA and busy areas have often
| lot of competition pushing prices much lower than done deserted
| areas, you have no clue about cheap travel.
|
| And if you want really local experience then stay at CS hosts or
| find whatever you can like when I argued about price in one Thai
| island with owner and they suggested for price I propose I can
| sleep somewhere in floor, which I said it's fine with me, couple
| from bus station heard us and I ended up sleeping on mattress in
| their bus station office.
|
| Also Hanoi is less touristy and more local than HCMC? You what?
| Who is this noob? I enjoyed motorbiking around Ninh Binh a lot,
| Hanoi is like top 1 or 2 most touristy place in Vietnam, heck
| even Hue or Danang are less touristy than Hanoi.
| sixothree wrote:
| Many people here blame airbnb for rising house prices in my
| city. Every block seemed to have multiple houses dedicated to
| airbnb. And the visitors certainly are problematic at best.
| [deleted]
| ricardobayes wrote:
| Travelling is like real estate, location matters. Certain places
| are popular for a reason usually. Off-the beaten path travelling
| is like advocating people to move to an off-grid farm with no
| running water. It might work out fine for you, but most people
| are not into that thing.
| penner_im_auto wrote:
| 2 years Vanlifer here.
|
| I am surprised he didn't mention once asking the locals. That is
| my key to knowing how people live in different countries. Also
| you get tons of inside information and it is an easy step to
| connect to people. Often times you get 'adopted'. You find
| yourself as a special guest on a private family garden party. Or
| on parties in locations that only the 'cool people' know it is
| open because Corona regulations mixed things up.
|
| I am currently recording hundreds of videos to share all
| knowledge on YT.
| usrusr wrote:
| > I am currently recording hundreds of videos to share all
| knowledge on YT
|
| An interesting way to say thank you to all the people who
| helped you: send in the copycats!
| tayo42 wrote:
| This idea that nyc isn't real America and some fly over country
| city bugs me a lot. Its marketing that says NYC isn't authentic.
|
| if you say something like
|
| > They've got such a strong self-image, a strong desire to be
| seen as special, that many residents have become actors playing
| NYC, or LA.
|
| Then claim your traveling like a real local, i cant help but feel
| your kind of full of it. If this is your take away, you didn't
| travel like a local, you didn't meet enough new yorkers. Probably
| met an extroverted transplant and judged from there. A small part
| of what makes up a place like NYC. Its like someone is looking to
| feed their bias about what a place should be like.
|
| >Cities where the residents are more focused on living their
| life, for themselves, not for a global audience.
|
| This is what NYC is. 10 million people, and you think they're
| putting on a show for a global audience?
|
| Be a local always bugged me. Its seem to always be followed up
| by, hang out in dive bars and crappy restaurants and do poverty
| things. I'm local, my friends are local. We don't hang out in
| dive bars, or eat at crappy restaurants. Why would i think that
| is the thing to do in another country? After traveling a bit, if
| you cant speak the local language you'll never understand what
| its like to be local or understand their life.
|
| I can rant more i guess but w/e
| pcglue wrote:
| I get what he's doing and why and even agree with some/most of
| it. But a subtle pervasive holier-than-thou attitude in the
| writing just turns me off.
| codalan wrote:
| NYC, LA, and Chicago are bubbles. They are not reflective of
| the rest of the US in my experience. They are much more
| cosmopolitan and are the top destinations for tourists,
| migrants, and other people looking for opportunities. You can
| find a little bit of the rest of the world within 30 sq. miles
| in those cities. I can't really say the same for the rest of
| the major American metropolises. Boston, DC, SF, Seattle come
| pretty close, though.
|
| Where I do diverge in opinion w/ the article (and agree with
| you on) is the whole idea of traveling "like a local", as a lot
| of traveloguers like to call it. I think the best most
| travelers can expect is maybe some curiosity from the community
| they're visiting, but they'll never have the full local
| experience. Only locals get that experience. You could live in
| a foreign city for years and even learn the language, but you
| will always be an outsider to the people in that community. You
| will never gain the years of culture and context that comes
| with having grown up in the area you are visiting. The best you
| could ever do in that situation is accept it and be gracious
| and courteous to the people in those communities.
| cityzens wrote:
| > NYC, LA, and Chicago are bubbles. They are not reflective
| of the rest of the US in my experience.
|
| I'm from the US. Having lived for years in each of New York,
| LA, Seattle, and 6 other metro areas, towns, and census
| designated places in the US ranging from ~3000000 to ~300
| people in the American South and West, I pretty strongly
| disagree. All places are bubbles to a degree - that's what
| makes them definable as places.
|
| Having lived outside the US for the last decade, and for
| months-long stretches over the decades before my current
| (indefinite) expatriation, it could not be clearer to me that
| - as people within the larger place (bubble) of the USA - the
| median New Yorker, Angeleno, or Chicagoan each has more in
| common, culturally, with the median Dakotan, Alaskan,
| Alabamian, or Puertorriqueno than with the median Irish,
| Bedouin, Xhosa, or Punjabi.
|
| And I cannot but reserve the deepest contempt - truly - for
| those who would exclude city dwellers from full citizenship
| within their national polities. The combined metro areas of
| New York City, Los Angeles, and Chicago alone are about a
| sixth of the total population of the USA. Add your examples
| of Boston, DC, SF, Seattle and you're at 20%. As of the 2020
| census, 55% of Americans lived in a metropolitan area of
| greater than 1 million people. The "real america" narrative
| is an 'othering' trope, used in the service of dehumanization
| for political ends.
|
| America's cities _are_ real America.
| tantalor wrote:
| "Real America" is a narrative to understand the (mostly) White,
| Christian, blue collar, small town folks.
|
| > Real America is a very old place. The idea that the authentic
| heart of democracy beats hardest in common people who work with
| their hands goes back to the 18th century. It was embryonic in
| the founding creed of equality.
|
| This Atlantic article from last year puts "Real America" into a
| frame with 3 other narratives: "Smart America", "Just America",
| and "Free America".
|
| "How America Fractured Into Four Parts"
| https://archive.ph/r5udO
| Chris_arnade wrote:
| Guess you missed this line
|
| "That doesn't mean entirely ignoring places like NYC, Istanbul,
| Seoul, or Tokyo. Some cities are so important they can't be
| missed, and every city is a confederation of very different
| neighborhoods. NYC is as much Dyker Heights as it is Upper East
| Side.
|
| That makes where you stay in a city more important than the
| city itself. "
| tayo42 wrote:
| right before this is a section about how ho chi minh city is
| a big tourist city but suggests real or authentic vietnam is
| in hanoi. then a comparison between that says ho chi minh
| city is nyc, that people should visit indianapolis for a true
| american experience and that nyc is full of the cynical take
| i quoted above.
|
| That quote "doesnt mean ignoring ...nyc..." reads more like
| NYC is a great show, go their for entertainment and spectacle
| of what it is, but somehow that's not real america.
| Chris_arnade wrote:
| No. The intent was go to Dyker heights, Hunts point,
| Jackson Heights, Sunset Park, Jamaica, Crown Heights. Not
| just Upper East Side or Times Square.
|
| Nowhere do I talk about Real or Fake or whatever.
| Everyplace is as real as any other place. Its about who you
| want to meet. How fancy you want stuff to be. How packaged.
| p_j_w wrote:
| >> They've got such a strong self-image, a strong desire to be
| seen as special, that many residents have become actors playing
| NYC, or LA.
|
| >Then claim your traveling like a real local, i cant help but
| feel your kind of full of it. If this is your take away, you
| didn't travel like a local, you didn't meet enough new yorkers.
|
| Similarly in LA. Anytime someone says that "everyone in LA is
| fake," I find that reflects more poorly on them and how they
| spent their time there than it does LA. Big cities are
| _different_ , not inauthentic.
| Chris_arnade wrote:
| I lived in NYC for 20 years and wrote a book about the Bronx.
| jonfromsf wrote:
| My parents used to have a simple approach to traveling on the
| Greek Islands. They would buy a Lonely Planet Greece guidebook,
| then go to the dock in Athens and look at the signs for the
| ferries. They would only go to an island that wasn't listed in
| the book. Worked like a charm for years and years.
| ChrisMarshallNY wrote:
| I worked with a Japanese chap, who was a 3rd Degree blackbelt
| travel ninja.
|
| He had one Zero Halliburton carry-on case. Had about three
| changes of clothes, and all his tech gear in there.
|
| He would travel for months at a time, but always used just that
| case. In many cases, he slept on the plane, and never even got a
| hotel room.
|
| Once he became a VP, he had to pack a suit, so he had to add a
| suit bag.
| user3939382 wrote:
| > In many cases, he slept on the plane, and never even got a
| hotel room.
|
| How did he shower/bathe?
| ChrisMarshallNY wrote:
| I didn't ask, but he had a _lot_ of travel percs, so he
| probably used the airport lounge facilities. They can have
| the full Monty, in some of these lounges.
| klausa wrote:
| Airport lounges, I assume.
| laundermaf wrote:
| > In many cases, he slept on the plane, and never even got a
| hotel room.
|
| Doesn't sound like such a great life. Anything short of a bed
| is pretty awful to sleep, let alone planes; even less once-a-
| day long-haul flights that would allow any acceptable amount of
| sleep.
|
| I'd guess "never even got a hotel room" is an exaggeration.
| ChrisMarshallNY wrote:
| _> I 'd guess "never even got a hotel room" is an
| exaggeration._
|
| No, it isn't. It wasn't that frequent, but he (and others)
| did, from time to time. I traveled with him, many times, and
| can attest to a lot of it (I'm a wuss. I'll _always_ get a
| hotel room, and insist on a night of rest).
|
| It was the life he chose. I suspect that he leveraged the
| extreme. It did get him a Corporate VP seat, after all (and
| the fact that he's one of the smartest bastards I'd ever
| met). I don't know if the office would have been much less
| stress. Japanese work culture is pretty intense.
| nkingsy wrote:
| I'll add my three rules for exciting travel:
|
| 1. Travel alone.
|
| 2. Always politely brush off people that approach you.
|
| 3. Approach people that look like they're having fun.
|
| Alternatively, go places where you have a good friend who will
| let you stay with them.
| em-bee wrote:
| or use couchsurfing or an equivalent
| mvexel wrote:
| If you need a travel guide for this type of tourism, you may find
| the "tourists vs locals" maps interesting and useful. Made by
| analyzing Flickr photos grouping them in ones likely taken by
| locals (blue) vs ones likely taken by tourists (red).
| ghaff wrote:
| Those were fascinating when geotagging was just becoming a
| thing. All they show though is that a lot of tourist locations
| aren't where people live and work. (If you look at the SF
| example, relatively few locals are regularly taking pics on
| Alcatraz.)
|
| It's not that visitors should avoid locales like the Mission
| (personally a lot of it is probably more interesting than
| Fisherman's Wharf) but it's not surprising that overall areas
| with a lot of housing or downtown businesses don't necessarily
| overlap with tourist attractions (though they probably do in SF
| more than some other places. Seattle may be a more obvious
| example although there are many that make a lot of sense.
|
| https://www.flickr.com/photos/walkingsf/albums/7215762420915...
| reedf1 wrote:
| I have a song for you, Common People...
| throwaway123120 wrote:
| > * When I decided to go to Vietnam, everything and everyone told
| me to go to Ho Chi Minh City. It had better food. More art. More
| high culture. Less government. So I went to Hanoi.
|
| The US equivalent is to go to Indianapolis instead of NYC or
| Houston instead of LA.*
|
| Uh huh. Indianapolis is a great idea for an international
| traveler. And while you are at it, go visit Indiana's state parks
| instead of Yosemite or Zion /s
| laundermaf wrote:
| The US equivalent is to go to LA instead of NY. Hanoi is the
| capital, the second largest city and very touristy. Picking
| Hanoi over HCM isn't off the beaten path at all.
|
| Try Da Lat if you want to travel like a local.
| ilamont wrote:
| There's a correspondent named Paul Salopek walking _around the
| world_ and writing /shooting it for National Geographic. He
| started in Africa and he is currently in Asia, headed northeast.
| His final destination is Tierra del Fuego. I follow him on
| Twitter and it's very interesting seeing the pictures (mostly in
| rural areas) and understanding how he does it (he has locals
| walking with him on each leg). He's gone through many sets of
| hiking boots.
|
| https://twitter.com/PaulSalopek
|
| https://www.nationalgeographic.org/projects/out-of-eden-walk...
| ochoseis wrote:
| There's a really good subreddit for this called r/onebag. You can
| get by with surprisingly little clothing by utilizing wool
| t-shirts, socks and underwear, plus semi-stylish nylon shorts and
| pants (I've personally had good luck with Unbound merino, Western
| Rise, and Outlier).
|
| Pure wool is more fragile than cotton, but pretty comfortable
| these days, resists odor, dries quickly, and is easy to sink-
| wash.
|
| Shoes are the one thing I have yet to crack -- hard to find ones
| that dress up and down well.
| tbran wrote:
| For the more adventurous, there is also r/zerobag!
|
| Lots of interesting little posts and articles, but few enough
| to read them in an afternoon.
|
| https://old.reddit.com/r/Zerobag/
| TremendousJudge wrote:
| It's amazing that some people do this, but it just seems very
| inconvenient
| oasisbob wrote:
| re: sink washing...
|
| I spent most of 2019 in SE asia, and full-service laundry was
| just too good, universal, and cheap to pass up. About a euro/kg
| everywhere. Never any problems.
|
| Sink washing and dealing with damp clothing was a time suck I
| always ended up regretting.
| adwi wrote:
| They're not for serious hiking but I'm a fan of Clark's Desert
| Boots re: up and down.
|
| Look great with jeans (even shorts, IMO) and work with a suit.
| I recommend you getting the Bushacre version, as the
| effectively turn any moisture on the ground into ice. Cheaper,
| too.
| kritiko wrote:
| Allbirds are pretty good - and some of them are made of wool. I
| became a devoted fan because of their odor resistance.
| coyotespike wrote:
| I will check out that reddit!
|
| Shoes are hard.
|
| Personally, I tend to use one of:
|
| - Astral Loyaks, which are minimalist boating shoes. Fine for
| casual style, and can work out in them - Chuck Taylor's, again
| casual but super flexible style. Again, you can work out in
| them - Good leather town boots. Can walk anywhere in them and
| they dress up excellently.
|
| For the rest of my clothing, I tend to wear things Lululemon's
| collared shirts and long pants, which are technical fabric but
| look downright dressy.
| wdutch wrote:
| > When I decided to go to Vietnam, everything and everyone told
| me to go to Ho Chi Minh City. It had better food. More art. More
| high culture. Less government. So I went to Hanoi.
|
| I'm not sure why the author acts like those are the only 2
| options. I spent a year living in Ho Chi Minh city and the vast
| majority of the city of is not aimed at international people but
| at the 9 million Vietnamese speakers living there (districts 1, 2
| and 7 being the exceptions).
|
| That being said, both HCM and Hanoi are subcultures of their own
| and don't give any impression of a 'typical' Vietnamese person's
| experience. If I were to look for a completely ordinary city, I'd
| pick a random city with a population of around 500,000 and
| nothing notable on Wikipedia.
| notahacker wrote:
| Not to mention that most backpackers probably visit _both_
| cities, and Hanoi is arguably the more touristy of the two...
| hayst4ck wrote:
| I spent over a year traveling like this person. I agree with most
| of what he said.
|
| My most treasured experiences were from being a regular
| somewhere. I think that is the most important lesson of the post.
| Friendship is proximity + time, so without spending a lot of time
| in one location you won't make friends.
|
| Random aimless walking through non tourist areas is also an
| enriching activity.
|
| I also found that traveling to places local people would visit to
| be far more interesting than the major tourist destinations.
|
| If I had one uncommon piece of advice, it would be to invest in
| an extremely comfortable pair of shoes. After your phone, your
| shoes are by far your most important investment.
|
| I personally prefer to travel with more stuff, although the
| author is absolutely right that you almost always travel with a
| lot more than you need. I like large cities more than the author,
| mostly because larger cities have more English speaking people so
| they are significantly less isolating. In larger cities it's
| nicer to have more clothing (and shoe) choices. I travel with a
| 55L osprey bag. I put all my electronics and papers in the day
| bag, and in the main bag I have clothes shoes and toiletries. If
| you know you are going to a single climate, you can pack less,
| but if you are going to both hot and cold places, you will want
| to pack more. The size of your pack mainly determines the rate of
| your laundromat trips and number of times you have to wait at
| baggage claim.
|
| If you are an American tech worker, your credit card is almost
| certainly better than cash anywhere you can use it. I could also
| withdrawal cash from ATMs at the official forex exchange rate
| with my bank card. You do have to be very careful because all
| forms of payment will ask if you want to pay in local currency or
| your own currency. If you choose to pay in your own currency, you
| will be charged a predatory exchange rate, so you must always pay
| (or atm withdrawal) in the local currency. I left the US with
| $400USD and came back with $300USD after a full year of travel
| abroad, I gained a lot of peace of mind from traveling with cash
| I wouldn't be heartbroken to lose and electronics (chromebook)
| that I didn't particular care if they were stolen or destroyed.
|
| After traveling without valuable items, I did feel mildly
| deprived. I would put a grand or two aside as "just the cost of
| traveling" money and use that as my "bad things happen sometimes"
| budget to get peace of mind about having valuable stuff in poor
| areas. If nothing bad happens, call it karma and donate it to a
| good cause.
|
| The author talked about visas. The hardest problem for me was
| that countries wanted round trip tickets. They wanted a ticket
| showing you were going to leave the country. This can often be
| circumvented by buying a $10 bus ticket out of the country.
| That's the only way I found to reliably purchase one way tickets
| to various countries ad hoc.
|
| > When I decided to go to Vietnam, everything and everyone told
| me to go to Ho Chi Minh City. It had better food. More art. More
| high culture. Less government. So I went to Hanoi.
|
| I experienced this when I visited Vietnam as well. I thought Ho
| Chi Mihn felt kind of empty and not too different from other
| major cities. Hanoi was a wonderful city and felt much more
| lively. I liked Da Nang a fair amount as well.
|
| A lot of the authors post can be summarized fairly succinctly:
|
| If you want to grow as a person, you need to be uncomfortable. So
| don't optimize for comfort.
|
| You can choose big comfortable cities with comfortable sights,
| comfortable food choices, and comfortable companions, but that
| won't lead to personal growth.
| woevdbz wrote:
| Next level: do this but as a woman and try not to get harassed
| FrecklySunbeam wrote:
| this was the only thing I could think while reading the
| article, if you're not /a white guy/ a lot of this advice is
| not useful at best or dangerous at worst
| googlryas wrote:
| Huh? Being white puts a target on your back in a lot of areas
| of the world, because you'll be assumed to be a naive tourist
| with money, and possibly drunk. I'm positive a Filipino
| person can move around Hanoi more easily than a white person
| from the perspective of random harassment.
|
| Yes, sometimes being white is a boon, and people will treat
| you nicer or more respectfully than they would a brown
| person. I'm not trying to say being white is a negative, I'm
| saying it is really dependent on where you are traveling to.
| Lio wrote:
| Whenever I see "travel light" advice now I just think of Vagrant
| Holiday[1].
|
| Of course, once you've seen how The Vagrant travels it makes the
| rest of us look like pretentious bourgeois pretenders no matter
| how regimented our carry on bags are. :P
|
| 1. https://www.youtube.com/c/VagrantHoliday
| mastax wrote:
| Similarly I recently ran into the YouTube trainhopping
| community. Was surprisingly interesting. e.g.
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a8OYWjIvycY
| Lio wrote:
| Yeah I love the idea of trainhopping but seeing The Vagrant's
| trainhopping video pretty much robbed any residual romance
| from it for me.
|
| It's a dirty, dangerous and cold way to travel. A bit like
| the guy that packed himself up in a crate to get back home;
| not something I'd ever really want to experience myself.
| 2Gkashmiri wrote:
| holy shit that guy swears a lot. am definiely not used to
| that....
|
| other than that, he doesnt explain where he showers, does
| mcdonalds offer shower+washing at their restrooms across
| europe?
| kritiko wrote:
| Lots of commentary on Arnade's recommendations already, so I'll
| ask a question instead ---
|
| Does anybody here have a regular job and family and take multiple
| multiple-week trips per year? If so, how do you do it?
| tayo42 wrote:
| No family, but it's not hard with tech companies and unlimited
| pto. In the post covid world and wfh my gf and I work on trips
| I wouldn't have been able to do before too
| kritiko wrote:
| So the how is roughly: -Work remotely -Take unlimited PTO
| (how many days is that for you?)
|
| Do you find that working on trips impacts your itinerary or
| choice of accommodations?
| tayo42 wrote:
| im not working currently but at my last job of 5 years I
| took between 6-8 weeks of pto a year. 2-3 week trips
| internationally. my gf works a little more then i do on
| trips her unlimited pto isnt as flexible.
|
| > choice of accommodations?
|
| I have to make sure there is working space for 2 and good
| wifi and internet so I had to pay a little more on those
| trips and carefully read reviews and look at all the
| pictures. I'm not a work from a coffee shop person. I need
| quiet.
|
| > impacts your itinerary
|
| Not so much, though we don't really plan that much. While
| working you can stay a little longer. So it becomes do one
| thing in the afternoon, or in the morning. I like trying
| lots of new food and exploring cuisine so filling the day
| with work then eating is fine with me. I did the work-
| cation thing more on surf trips where I was surfing a lot,
| less tourist focused stuff. Did this in bali, kauai, puerto
| rico and europe
| jobs_throwaway wrote:
| Nice read, but for all the "I want to travel like a local", I
| find it funny that he refers to the large city in the south of
| Vietnam as "Ho Chi Minh City" when virtually all locals call it
| its traditional name "Saigon".
| varispeed wrote:
| These guides to travel "like a local" always sound patronising
| and demeaning. It's almost short of saying travel "like a poor"
| and reminds me of rich middle class coming to deprived parts of
| town to have pint with the locals to hear how they struggle and
| at the same time feel better about themselves.
| biftek wrote:
| That's the real issue I have with this article. I think it's
| possible to have a considered approach to an off the beaten
| path style of travel, but writing a "holier than thou" article
| about it doesn't seem like it tho.
| dahauns wrote:
| Yeah, I couldn't help but hear Pulp's Common People in my head
| when reading the article...
|
| (Well, the Shatner version, to be exact ;) )
| DustinBrett wrote:
| I did this in my mid-20's and it was indeed a great way to
| travel. Ended up going to 50 countries before I turned 30. Lots
| of CouchSurfing along the way, although that community/site has
| degraded. Had an Osprey Escapist 20L backpack which was more than
| enough to fit a weeks worth of living into, I'd do laundry and
| buy new t-shirts/underwear along the way. After years of
| traveling I think I ended up being every type of cliche traveler
| eventually. Doing the math it was about $15,000 CAD / year. It
| was actually a very interesting way to live and it gave me a lot
| of confidence to be able to survive in most places on very
| little. Even the most expensive cities in the world you can
| usually find a way to live cheap, if you are willing to
| compromise and find a way to be ok with being uncomfortable.
| Bakary wrote:
| Did you use your savings or had a way to generate income on the
| journey?
| DustinBrett wrote:
| Before I left I sold my car for $9k and all my stuff for
| maybe $6k. And I think I had $9k in savings before, so I
| started with about $24k which lasted me almost 2 years. But I
| did work odd job Craigslist stuff along the way occasionally.
| And near the end I got in debt a bit. But it was worth it I
| think. Now with the way remote work is I could travel
| indefinitely, but at that time I had less skills in
| programming and I really didn't wanna work in general.
| cowuser666 wrote:
| Seems like people are criticizing this partially because it's
| pitched as an alternative to normal tourism. Just wanted to point
| out that Chris Arnade has done quite compelling photo journalism
| based on his way of engaging with communities, so what might seem
| like non sequitors or edge lord stuff might be in service of an
| implicit goal of his that most travelers don't share. Not that he
| does himself any favors with some of the framing.
|
| Highly recommend his book Dignity.
| https://www.amazon.com/Dignity-Seeking-Respect-Back-America/...
|
| Some of his work in the Guardian:
| https://www.theguardian.com/profile/chris-arnade
| runjake wrote:
| In fact, he's apparently on HN, also.
|
| https://news.ycombinator.com/threads?id=Chris_arnade
| neilknowsbest wrote:
| Is this the guy who covered Hunts Point in the Bronx? I
| remember seeing his pictures, feels like a long time ago now.
|
| I found a Flickr album here [0]. I also vaguely recall a long
| form article, talking about a few different people's lives, but
| I can't seem to find that one.
|
| [0] -
| https://www.flickr.com/photos/arnade/albums/7215762646801687...
| ericholscher wrote:
| This is useful context, thanks for sharing it.
| grammers wrote:
| Traveling the world is awesome. At the same time I'm always
| surprised at how many things you can do right at your doorstep.
| At least for myself I can say I need to do a vacation at home
| because if you're always on the go, you never get a chance to see
| the beautiful spots right next to you.
| WirelessGigabit wrote:
| Am I the only one that gets bored on vacation?
|
| Like I go hiking. Wake up, go hiking, spend 8 hours away, go
| home, and then ... what do I do after that? I cannot sit still.
| So I end up being on my laptop.
| em-bee wrote:
| maybe 8 hours away is not enough.
|
| the question is what is the purpose of the vacation. if it is
| to take a break from work, then maybe you want to find
| activities that help you take your mind of work but aren't
| boring.
|
| you enjoy hiking. i do too. but when i get home i am either
| exhausted, or i write a diary. if i was alone all day i might
| seek out a place with other people.
| post_break wrote:
| Reminds me of the guy who travels after a terrorist attack
| because it's so much cheaper:
| https://www.reddit.com/r/funny/comments/l9y45v/travel_hacks/
| soared wrote:
| One sentence in and the article is already waving its cringe flag
| proudly.
|
| > I don't travel like most people do
|
| The author follows that up by saying they'd rather travel to a
| place like Indianapolis than NYC. In your words author, enjoy
| spending 4 weeks in Indianapolis living out of your book bag, not
| doing trips to other cities, sampling the local restaurants of
| Applebees and chilis, all while using the glorious public transit
| they have to offer.
| prottog wrote:
| The author in fact did spend some time in Indianapolis[0]. I'm
| not really sure what your point is, besides that Indianapolis
| is a hinterland town with no public transit (the author was
| mainly on foot, anyway) and its height of cuisine being chain
| restaurants?
|
| Have you been to Indianapolis?
|
| [0]: https://walkingtheworld.substack.com/p/walking-america-
| part-...
| ghaff wrote:
| Well, one of the points of that link seemed to be that there
| are nice little ethnic restaurants even in strip malls in
| Indianapolis. I know that many smaller cities are perfectly
| nice places to live in--especially for those who don't _want_
| either a bustling metropolis or a rural location. But it
| doesn 't mean I'll visit there for no particular reason
| especially without a car to get around easily.
| prottog wrote:
| You might find yourself surprised at how many of these
| smaller cities are good to visit for no particular reason!
| Indianapolis does have more than just little ethnic
| restaurants in strip malls. Of course, you may run out of
| things to see and do there sooner than you would in NYC,
| but who really has time to travel that much, anyway? ;-)
|
| You have a point about needing a car in any number of such
| smaller cities in America, but even in those places there
| is a central core that remains relatively walkable.
| ghaff wrote:
| >You have a point about needing a car in any number of
| such smaller cities in America, but even in those places
| there is a central core that remains relatively walkable.
|
| They're often pretty small though. I'm not familiar with
| Indianapolis specifically, but there's one smaller city I
| visit semi-regularly for work. It has a nice (relatively
| gentrified) downtown but it's, to be generous, maybe 15 x
| 10 blocks. And beyond that you mostly need a car. I'll
| have a day to kill there in a month or so and I'll
| probably end up renting a car for the day.
|
| I also worked downtown of a similar city about a decade
| ago. Same thing. (And both old mill towns.)
| jjuel wrote:
| So a town with a population of 800k is considered small to
| you? Yikes don't come to Iowa then...
| ghaff wrote:
| I honestly didn't realize it has that large a population.
| Although the city I was referring to in another comment
| with a small downtown core has half that metro
| population, so not a _lot_ smaller. Cities can have large
| metro populations and still have a fairly small area that
| 's what people consider a walkable downtown.
| someguydave wrote:
| I guess your tastes are superior to Mr. Arnade's, soared.
| Chris_arnade wrote:
| Yeah. And. I liked Indianapolis. Great Mexican food. Nice Twin
| Peaks.
| juve1996 wrote:
| I've learned to dismiss these articles entirely. They're all
| about optimizing something that shouldn't be optimized and
| doesn't work for most people. It just serves to make people
| feel bad about packing an extra suitcase, just in case.
|
| Just go on a trip, and do what you want to do. You don't need a
| philosophy behind every little detail - I find this takes away.
| People care more to brag about how they travelled with just 1
| bag than tell you about the places they actually went...
| Chris_arnade wrote:
| I make a living telling people where I went.
|
| This article is based on lots of request of those people
| asking me for an article like this.
| em-bee wrote:
| how is that working out?
|
| is your subscriberbase enough to cover your cost of living?
|
| maybe this is stuff for another post :-)
| vehemenz wrote:
| Dull people require interesting environments. Interesting
| people thrive in dull environments.
| yunwal wrote:
| Gotta say I've met plenty of interesting people in NYC and
| plenty of dull people in Wilmington Delaware, so this doesn't
| check out to me. Interesting people are interesting partially
| because they're inspired
| Bakary wrote:
| Interesting people tend to move to interesting environments
| because of the shortness of life
| aeturnum wrote:
| This is _such_ a strange article.
|
| I too, in general, avoid starting with "pre-packaged" experiences
| when traveling. My most memorable experiences were only possible
| because, like the author, I travel light and don't plan too far
| ahead and mostly avoid being spendy. There's a kind of looseness
| and spontaneity that is possible if one plans generally and keeps
| funds available to take advantage of opportunities that only
| crystalize once you get to where you are going.
|
| But the high-handed tone in this article, denigrating the popular
| attractions countries are known of, feels entirely at odds with
| that philosophy.
|
| > _I stay away from the coolest neighborhoods in the world, which
| all end up being variations of the same thing._
|
| If you have spent any time traveling, you know this is a silly
| thing to say. Even the most tourist-y places like Bali, though
| you see similarities, retain a national character. They are also
| generally very different from the rest of their host country -
| bubbles with their own rules and features. This is a feature! I
| have never regretted spending some time in heavily tourist'ed
| areas. Being catered to and seeing how culture shifts is
| interesting and fun. Taking a break from forging your own path
| and doing some pre-constructed-fun is nice. The reasons those
| areas are popular is because they are interesting and fun!
|
| To me, a lot of this comes down to balancing the time you invest
| in figuring out how to spend your time and money v.s. the time
| you want to take "doing the thing." If you have a low budget,
| then just kind of scrap around (you don't have a choice so
| there's no need to pretend this is some crazy tip). If you have a
| higher budget you have options! You can jump right into a pre-
| planned experience for a little bit or you can scrap it a bit and
| see what turns out. Ultimately, for most of us, even if you
| travel on "the cheap" you are still actually planning around a
| budget of how long you can skip work.
|
| I 1000% think that, if people have never taken just a carry on to
| a less touristy city in a foreign city, you should consider it.
| But the experience is a close cousin to the one you have when you
| are in tourist land and the two approaches support each other.
| m463 wrote:
| I'm kind of conflicted here.
|
| I used to avoid Pier 39 in san francisco because it was an
| overpriced tourist trap.
|
| But recently I went there and had a lot of fun. I just relaxed
| and accepted the mini donut place and the left-handed store.
| And I genuinely enjoyed the USS Pampanito submarine and the
| Ripley's Believe it or not museum.
|
| and the bacon wrapped hot-dogs...
| x0x0 wrote:
| Not really. The author was super clear -- sentence 1, para 2 --
| what his goals were: "I travel to get an idea of how other
| people live." And from that, everything follows.
| aeturnum wrote:
| I guess that's why I said called it strange. People live in
| tourist towns. The people there are real people with real
| lives (that involve a lot of interaction with foreigners).
| There's no reason to avoid those places if you want to "get
| an idea of how people live."
| em-bee wrote:
| if i want to get an idea of how people live making money of
| tourists. (not that this is a bad thing) but i think that
| is the point, the life of people making money from tourists
| is similar everywhere. it's not the life that i am
| interested in learning about. i want to interact with
| people that don't make money from talking to me.
|
| if i visit a tourist place, then i do it with local
| friends, and my interaction is focused on the local friends
| and not the rest.
|
| you may say that not everyone living there makes money from
| tourists, and that would be true. but why should i make
| things hard for me, instead of going to a place where only
| very few people make money from tourists.
| com2kid wrote:
| > If you have spent any time traveling, you know this is a
| silly thing to say.
|
| I know from my own home city, Seattle, that this is bad advice.
|
| If someone comes here and doesn't do any of the tourist things,
| hike up one of our many many mountains, go to the rain forest,
| spend a day out on Lake Washington, or stop by one of the many
| Sea Fair events, then they aren't actually doing the things
| that _locals also do_.
|
| Because, surprise surprise, locals around here also go hiking
| and camping and go watch naked bicyclists.
|
| Go to the "touristy" parts of Japan, and they are filled with
| Japanese residents doing fun things! Feeding the deer in Nara
| is something everyone loves to do, so don't be elitist, go do
| it! The fashion districts in Tokyo are amazing, go buy an
| outrageous new outfit! Anyone who spends half a second looking
| around will see that plenty of people who live there have done
| the same thing.
|
| Likewise, the large museums in different countries are all
| worth visiting. The museum in the Forbidden City has dioramas
| made out of gem stones, they are one of the most memorable
| things I have ever seen!
|
| I agree, staying at an Air BnB in a "safe but not cool" part of
| a city that is still on a transit line is a good idea. Eating
| at local restaurants is a good idea, but wow, the author is so
| self assured that his way of doing things is superior.
|
| I agree that if someone goes to an all inclusive resort in
| Mexico, then they haven't visited Mexico. I encourage everyone
| I meet to go spend a week in Mexico City (CDMX is one of my
| favorite cities!!!), it completely destroyed any lingering
| bullshit stereotypes I had about Mexico. (Fun fact: Mexico City
| has the second largest metropolitan GDP of any city in North
| America)
|
| But, again, also, GO DO FUN STUFF.
| ambrose2 wrote:
| Fully agree with your take on this.
| aeturnum wrote:
| Absolutely agree! I 100% think that, if you're not from
| somewhere and you've heard of a thing to do - there's a good
| chance that's because there's advertising money behind it and
| you're going to pay a premium to do it (museums are a
| frequent exception).
|
| So, going into a trip, you will know about the "pricey" side
| of the cool stuff in that area. That's fine! Those things are
| still cool! But if you hang out a bit and look around at what
| the locals do, you will pretty quickly learn about the
| "cheap" side of the cool stuff in the area. You will also
| discover the day-to-day parts of being in a city or town that
| lead people to live in that area: small shops, hole-in-the-
| wall restaurants, street food, the bar scene, etc.
| dabedee wrote:
| The author's behavior is, to some extent, an attempt at anti-
| conformity by traveling in a way that he believes most people
| don't do (i.e. by staying close to locals, staying longer than a
| few days, avoiding popular places to experience authenticity). I
| think most people would in theory like to travel that way. Places
| that feel authentic draw people and become popular, which
| eventually makes those places feel less "authentic". That's the
| paradox. If everyone traveled and behaved like the author, then,
| in time, there would be less "authentic" places to discover.
| iLoveOncall wrote:
| I genuinely never understood the people that travel to live like
| locals, avoiding tourist spots, popular attractions, etc.
|
| Popular things are popular for a reason, I just can't fathom
| missing out on them on purpose, with the sole reason being that
| they are popular.
|
| If I pay thousands for flights and hotels, it's definitely to see
| what's unique about the place, and after having lived in 4 very
| different countries (and my girlfriend in 10+), I can tell you
| that the locals' way of life is definitely not unique anywhere in
| the world.
| em-bee wrote:
| when i was a student i thought that every place i went to was
| different until i visited japan and realized that before that i
| had only visited western countries. (europe, US, NZ) and
| compared to asia they suddenly felt pretty much all the same.
|
| there are still differences however, and i don't agree that the
| local's way of life is the same everywhere.
| laundermaf wrote:
| > Popular things are popular for a reason
|
| Meh, it really depends. Some places look amazing on cameras and
| especially on drones, but aren't _that_ interesting if you 're
| not a bird.
|
| Specifically, "un-popular tourists" generally don't like to
| hang out with hundreds of other tourists, pay exorbitant fees
| and being hassled by street sellers anywhere they go.
|
| > the locals' way of life is definitely not unique anywhere in
| the world
|
| This reads like satire. You can't tell me that life in Vietnam
| is _anywhere near_ life in the US. I don 't need to visit any
| tourist places in Vietnam to enjoy living there.
| Consultant32452 wrote:
| I do the tourist attractions but try to find local mom and pop
| restaurants over the recommended tourist places.
| yunwal wrote:
| Locals way of life is no different in South India vs. the US? I
| get your point I guess, but there are huge differences in way
| of life that are genuinely interesting to me at least.
| iLoveOncall wrote:
| No, it really isn't that different. I think you can see
| differences in standard of living, not way of life or day to
| day life.
|
| Wake up, go to work, go for a drink with colleagues or
| friends and go back home (and everything in between) is the
| day to day routine of the vast majority of people, no matter
| which country they are in and which standard of living they
| have.
|
| It's not because some do it in a megalopolis with skyscrapers
| and some in a wooden shack in the middle of the mountains
| that the way of life is different.
| em-bee wrote:
| the differences are in the details. the culture. how people
| interact with each other. what they do in their free time.
| the difference in the standard of living itself reveals a
| lot in what people feel is important to them. there is a
| lot we can learn, both from the similarities and from the
| differences.
| laundermaf wrote:
| Your view on "the way of life" is so superficial.
|
| Yes, we all breathe, eat and die. Day to day things are
| different. Interactions are different. Food is different.
| The time you spend between work and sleep is different.
|
| Saying that "the way of life" is the same between South of
| India and the US is completely laughable.
| fritztastic wrote:
| Something about this just seems very odd to me.
|
| As someone who grew up in the global South, this reads to me like
| a person from a privileged background trying to relate to the
| everyday people in other places and the marginalized- but it
| comes off sounding like a lot of projectionand assumptions- it
| would read much better if the conclusions were accompanied with
| dialogue from people, maybe explanations of where those
| statements are coming from.
|
| > _I don't travel like most people do_ I would think most travel
| is done by a wealthy few, but most travelers aren 't wealthy- if
| that makes sense? It sounds like the "travel" being referred to
| here is "flying somewhere and being a tourist" but in fact to
| many people "travel" means taking the train/bus to another city,
| staying in a hostel, wandering around. Most people who go to see
| a wonder of the world do it because this might be the one time in
| their life they can afford to visit NYC, a place many people
| dream of seeing, and so they want to experience those things that
| are iconic there. I guess it really stands out to me, this
| writing sounds like "I'm not like those other stereotypical
| tourists" and the stereotypes are those behaviors associated with
| privileged westerners- which isn't really an accurate
| representation of most travelers.
|
| From the Istanbul post:
|
| > _Most Turks are not secular though, and neither are they
| religious nuts like them Arabs_
|
| He considers education by traveling as sufficient, which I
| believe is not the best approach. Might be a good idea to read up
| a little about the history and cultures of a region before going.
|
| There is a lot going on with his writing that comes off
| ethnocentric, uninformed, insensitive. I'm not going to dissect
| it, but I'll just say I recommend familiarization with cultural
| geography, anthropology, and ethnography if the topic of
| understanding people in different places interests you- because
| this blog is rife with problematic bias and some really broad
| generalizations that are prejudice at best, racism at worst.
| kodah wrote:
| Actually, your synopsis isn't far off:
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chris_Arnade Before he did it to
| the rest of the world, he did it to others in the United
| States.
|
| FWIW, it looks like he's watching:
| https://twitter.com/Chris_arnade/status/1580993239670136832 So
| maybe he'll take your criticism.
| fritztastic wrote:
| Wow, the criticism of his "Faces of Affiction" work is spot
| on.
|
| From his Istanbul post:
|
| > _Because being an addict here is an ugly and gross
| rebellion against a town that feels like a single massive
| mosque. A place that is welcoming, humble, peaceful, and
| sublimely beautiful. It is like pissing on an alter. A gross,
| ugly, and rebellious act that will bring scorn and shame.
| Both in the physical and spiritual world. US cities by
| comparison have all the ethos of an office park. Drab,
| soulless, and endlessly competitive, where selfishness is
| rewarded. Being an addict there is like pissing on the drab
| shrub at the edge of a massive parking lot. It doesn't feel
| that wrong. It even feels a little right. Especially if your
| a tad depressed. A tad isolated. A tad lonely. And many
| people are. "_
|
| There is an issue here with this attempt at documenting
| people but without taking the time to learn and understand
| how to do it respectfully, ethically, and with consideration
| to the people he's observing. I want to believe his
| motivation comes from a good place, that he wants to bring
| attention to people's lives... but the way his writing reads
| sounds more like the fetishization of the marginalized and
| elitism over exceptionalism. It sounds like "yes I'm
| privileged but unlike those other privileged people I talk to
| the poors", because rather than centering the voices of the
| people he claims to "inhabit their tiny slice of the
| world"(while claiming his goal is "to better understand how
| they see the universe and their place in it") he dishes out
| his value judgements. The hubris that all you need to get an
| idea of how people live is to... show up. He does write that
| he sees traveling as fiction with the plot written in real
| time- evidently with him as the MC. He seems to want to
| change for the better though, and I hope he learns to invest
| a little more time into figuring out how to look at people's
| lives more respectfully than as entertainment.
| Chris_arnade wrote:
| "rather than centering the voices of the people he claims
| to "inhabit their tiny slice of the world"
|
| I wrote a book center the voices of marginalized people I
| spent up to 10 years with during my time documenting
| addiction in the US. It's called Dignity. I don't expect
| you to read it, but perhaps if you did, your criticisms
| would be different.
|
| This project, walking around the world and sending
| dispatches, is different. While I talk to plenty of people
| during my trips, its a more macro based approach.
|
| While I appreciate your takes, I will say your making some
| pretty huge assumptions based on one article. Such is life!
|
| Take care and be well
| smoldesu wrote:
| I grew up in between Ypsilanti & Detroit, and I've lived
| around/in a number of borderline-impoverished
| communities. It's not my place to make generalizations,
| but you should be aware that your tourism is not always
| welcome. Many, if not most of these people, are not proud
| of their situation. They might smile and take your money
| as you photograph them, but your motivations are not
| mutual.
|
| When I was a kid, my decently wealthy grandparents
| visited on my birthday and offered me $100 if I'd cut my
| "garish, girly" hair down to a more typical length. Self-
| righteous allegories aside, I still feel that choice
| burned into my head like a brand. They let me choose
| between living as I am, a resented shame in a family too
| poor to buy cans of Coke or Pokemon cards, or take $100
| to humiliate myself for a few short moments. In the end I
| rejected them, but I'd be lying if I said I didn't dream
| about yo-yos and Bakugan that night.
|
| Nowadays I thankfully live in a different economic
| strata, and I even sympathize with your curiosity to
| explore different cultures and lifestyles. You should
| stay fully aware of your optics at all times, though.
| Sometimes, the greatest charity is treating other
| individuals with the same respect you give your peers.
| Chris_arnade wrote:
| Again. There is nothing in this I disagree with. But
| there is a lot of assumptions on what I have wrote over
| my last 12 years based on not reading what I wrote.
|
| If you read Dignity, and come to the same conclusion.
| Fine. But this thread is based on a Wiki page.
|
| Congrats on Living in a different Eco strata. That is
| well done! (no snark intended. Genuine congrats)
| smoldesu wrote:
| I'm not here to throw stones at you or tell you that
| you're wrong. You can't expect your entire bibliography
| to be required-reading in an HN thread though (or
| anywhere else, for that matter). Take my concerns with
| the levity of someone who has no idea what your work
| entails, since that's pretty much all it is.
| pxx wrote:
| > "You can almost always change cash with no commission and at a
| better exchange rate than credit cards charge"
|
| Can you? This doesn't seem to be the case except in countries
| where the real exchange rate has drifted from a government-
| imposed one. The spread on my credit card and ATM card are low
| enough (very negative, in fact, on the credit card when we
| consider cashback) where if this were the case I would be able to
| arbitrage against said jewelry stores.
| blacklion wrote:
| Yes, you can. I've been in Laos, Vietnam, Cambodia, Myanmar
| (not to mention Thailand) and I always has much better exchange
| rate for USD cash, than my credit and/or debit card.
|
| Yes, I'm not from USA, and we don't have any cards with real
| cash-back. Typically exchange rate for all banks in my country
| is like xe.com + 3-5%. It is terrible.
|
| Only one time I seen really monstrous exchange rate for cash:
| in Istanbul airport. It was complete rip-off. Exchange booths
| in Istnabul itself were better than my bank exchange rate.
|
| And typical spread in exchange booth in Myanmar is 0.1%. Yes,
| 0.1%. Like, 1000/1001 per dollar if you have $100 bills (worse
| for $50 and lower).
| oasisbob wrote:
| > Yes, I'm not from USA, and we don't have any cards with
| real cash-back. Typically exchange rate for all banks in my
| country is like xe.com + 3-5%. It is terrible.
|
| Ahh, now I understand where the disagreement is coming from.
| For US cards, it's not cash-back rewards which make them a
| good value for foreign exchange. It's that the networks (eg,
| VISA, or Mastercard) offer currency conversion rates which
| are much closer to par than local retail services. (or, your
| bank, apparently.)
|
| This article has a few good example charts for the networks:
|
| https://www.thinmargin.com/blogs/visa-vs-mastercard-who-
| give...
|
| Typically there is a 1% fee for the service. However, many
| premium cards will waive this fee as a privilege. If you have
| access to a card like this, it's a no-brainer.
| rockinghigh wrote:
| You're right. In order, the cheapest options are:
|
| 1) an account in the local currency with a debit card;
|
| 2) credit cards without foreign transaction fees and cash- back
|
| 3) ATM withdrawal with a no-fee debit card
|
| Changing USD in cash to get local currency is almost always the
| worst option. They charge 5%-10% on the exchange rate plus
| whatever fees.
| Mikeb85 wrote:
| Definitely not lol. Cash changing places are always colossal
| rip-offs that give you an exchange rate that's off by like
| 30%...
| presentation wrote:
| Yeah I've checked my credit card and ATM transactions against
| google's exchange rates and they almost always are extremely
| close matches. Local banks seem to basically just provide the
| same rates with the extra annoyance that you have to carry
| around a ton of cash.
| Chris_arnade wrote:
| No! Some are indeed. Especially in Airport. But almost every
| country has, if you look for them, places with zero
| commission.
|
| Also, a lot of places around the world (where I go,
| especially street food type places) don't accept cards.
|
| Taking local money out of bank machines is a huge rip off.
| Huge fees and bad exchange rates
| Kranar wrote:
| >But almost every country has, if you look for them, places
| with zero commission.
|
| Oh man this is hilarious. Places with zero commission end
| up charging the absolute worst exchange rates. You're
| better off paying a small commission/fee and getting a good
| exchange rate instead of those zero commission places that
| don't charge a fee and fleece you with a crappy exchange
| rate.
| blacklion wrote:
| Did you been in Myanmar or Laos, for example? Did you
| exchange money in Cambodia? Rural Vietnam? Armenia or
| Georgia, maybe? Serbia or BiH? I've been in all these
| countries (many times in some of them) and always, always
| exchange of cash was much better than exchange rate and
| ATM commissions for any bank of my native country.
|
| Maybe, USA banks are better, but not everybody live in
| USA and has USA credit card.
| seattle_spring wrote:
| I'm honestly confused. The ATM doesn't choose the
| exchange rate, your bank does. I use my own bank's ATM
| card to pull out cash in foreign countries and it's
| always the correct exchange rate, and always the same as
| using a credit card (which OP says is a good rate?).
| oasisbob wrote:
| Most people agree the best rates are obtained if the
| transaction is done in local currency with the network
| providing the conversion. However, some ATMs and credit
| card terminals give the option to either send the
| transaction to the network in local currency, or the
| cardholders currency. If you choose to let the terminal
| submit in your currency, you're going to get that
| conversion rate instead.
|
| I don't understand the advice here either. It's not hard
| (at least as someone in the US) to find a card offering
| no foreign transaction fees, and I thought everyone
| agreed that the card network conversion rates are about
| the best you're going to find as traveller.
|
| ATM fees can sometimes be unavoidable, but sometimes even
| finding a functional ATM was a blessing, so ...
| Kranar wrote:
| The best option for me as a Canadian who has travelled to
| some (not all) of the places you listed, is to do the
| exchange in your home country and bring plenty of cash
| with you. If you're going to Vietnam, you bring VND with
| you that you acquired from your home bank. Going to
| Morocco, bring MAD with you.
| oasisbob wrote:
| I've been to most of those countries, and they're no
| exception to the rule that the best exchange rates will
| be provided by the credit card networks. Though, Cambodia
| is strange--at least to someone from the US--since the
| USD is still such a strong, preferred, unofficial
| currency in many places there. You pull USD from a
| Cambodian ATM in USD and there will be no conversion fee
| whatsoever.
|
| If your credit card doesn't carry high fees for the
| service, the network currency conversion is the way to
| go.
| em-bee wrote:
| it's been decades, but my experience was that places with
| commission would only be better if you change large sums
| of money, which, being a student on a budget, i never
| did. and if the commission is a percentage, then how is
| that different from a bad exchange rate? it's simply a
| matter of math.
|
| i remember annoying my hosts once because i insisted on
| checking 3 or 4 places to compare rates and make sure i
| didn't get ripped off.
| pxx wrote:
| But that's literally not the case. There are ATM cards that
| reimburse you for fees and also give you great exchange
| rates.
|
| Again, this is assuming that there isn't some sort of black
| market for exchange that's causing published rates to
| diverge from real rates, but that's only the case in
| relatively few countries.
| iLoveOncall wrote:
| Yeah so zero commission doesn't mean that the exchange rate
| is the real one.
| Mikeb85 wrote:
| Zero commission is laughable because they give you a shit
| exchange rate. That's literally the scam.
| andirk wrote:
| I do a combo of these, with more time being a local if I have a
| lot of time, and little localing if I don't. There is often a new
| world in the common activities like going to the laundromat,
| getting groceries, plugging in your electric Alfa Romeo in the
| nearby favela.
| yosito wrote:
| I've been traveling out of carryon luggage for almost 15 years,
| and I really disagree with a lot of the stuff in this post. I
| find many of the people who say "I'm traveling like a local not a
| tourist" to be at least slightly self-deceiving. You're a
| goddamned tourist, whether you go to restaurants with good
| reviews or not. The packing tips here are utter nonsense, as well
| as the suggestion that you get better exchange rates with cash
| than with credit cards.
| jakub_g wrote:
| The general rule is: the more affluent the country, the better
| off you're with paying with CC. The cost of exchanging paper
| money is proportional to the prices of other things in the
| country. Especially in big touristy cities in affluent
| countries like France, you can easily lose 10%+ on currency
| exchange. So in EU, stick to CC, and maybe just have 50 bucks
| of emergency cash.
|
| On the other hand, in cheap countries like say Georgia,
| Kyrgyzstan, exchanging paper currency (especially USD) to a
| local currency _and back to USD_ is almost free ( <~1%)
| laundermaf wrote:
| Rates yes, but fees not. Unless you're a US resident and can
| get a Charles Schwabs, you're going to pay all those ATM fees
| that a lot of countries charge, for example the inescapable
| US$6 fee in Thailand.
| lg wrote:
| > The packing tips here are utter nonsense, as well as the
| suggestion that you get better exchange rates with cash than
| with credit cards.
|
| I was surprised on a recent trip to Europe that my (fee-free)
| credit card got me almost exactly the exchange rate I see on
| Google. Much better than ATM withdrawal with fees or any posted
| rate I saw in towns. Also all the internet advice about needing
| cash left me with lots of unspent euros and zlotys, I used
| apple pay almost everywhere (in fact my cash was refused in
| some places!) Maybe a covid-times switch away from cash, not
| sure.
| ghaff wrote:
| >Also all the internet advice about needing cash
|
| I always want to have some cash but it really depends on the
| country and location how much.
|
| I just got back from London and Dublin. I took my ziplocks of
| pounds and euros over and, aside from tossing some coins in
| the donation bucket at a London museum (and I think you could
| donate digitally) and using my Oyster card, I didn't spend a
| single coin or note. On the other hand, if I were doing an
| extended walk in the English countryside, I would absolutely
| want to have a couple hundred pounds with me.
|
| I have a feeling my widespread traveling pre-COVID during
| which I pretty much figured I'd always have a use for most of
| my baggies of foreign currency is going to leave me with a
| fair bit of unused cash going forward.
| blast wrote:
| How can someone's packing tips be "utter nonsense"? That's
| completely personal.
| hooverd wrote:
| Credit cards worth their salt don't have any foreign
| transaction fees and convert transparently.
| no_butterscotch wrote:
| Unfortunately it seems like every card I have has a foreign
| transaction fee. I'm traveling now and everytime I use my
| Chase/Visa "Freedom" card I get the fee. And every time I use
| my Amex I get it too.
| ghaff wrote:
| I have a premium travel-oriented Chase card that doesn't
| have a fee. My free cards do as does my corporate card.
| draw_down wrote:
| Rick Steves said something like this once, about trying to get
| the essence of a place. I think maybe there's no use avoiding
| that wherever you go there you are.
|
| I remember his adamance that he would never drink a beer in some
| Italian place, because people there drink red wine. Meanwhile I'm
| pretty sure you can find plenty of people around Italy who enjoy
| a beer, or slivovitz or whatever.
|
| Not only that but you're _not_ a local- and so what? Travel, that
| is to say seeing other parts of the world than one's own, need
| not involve an attempt at escaping into some other life.
| xivzgrev wrote:
| If most tourists go to popular areas, the author is the extreme
| opposite.
|
| I like somewhere in the middle. I seek out highly-rated
| restaurants among LOCALS as a starting point. The fewer other
| tourists I see and the less English the staff speaks, the better.
| I also mix in places I see on the street that look good - they
| may not even be on rating apps; sometimes I get lucky that way
| too.
| parthianshotgun wrote:
| Relevant David Foster Wallace
|
| > As I see it, it probably really is good for the soul to be a
| tourist, even if it's only once in a while. Not good for the soul
| in a refreshing or enlivening way, though, but rather in a grim,
| steely-eyed, let's-look-honestly-at-the-facts-and-find-some-way-
| to-deal-with-them way.
|
| >
|
| > My personal experience has not been that traveling around the
| country is broadening or relaxing, or that radical changes in
| place and context have a salutary effect, but rather that
| intranational tourism is radically constricting, and humbling in
| the hardest wayhostile to my fantasy of being a real individual,
| of living somehow outside and above it all.
|
| > To be a mass tourist, for me, is to become a pure late-date
| American: alien, ignorant, greedy for something you cannot ever
| have, disappointed in a way you can never admit. It is to spoil,
| by way of sheer ontology, the very unspoiledness you are there to
| experience. It is to impose yourself on places that in all
| noneconomic ways would be better, realer, without you. It is, in
| lines and gridlock and transaction after transaction, to confront
| a dimension of yourself that is as inescapable as it is painful:
|
| >
|
| > As a tourist, you become economically significant but
| existentially loathsome, an insect on a dead thing.
| draw_down wrote:
| insane_dreamer wrote:
| For some reason I didn't expect an article about traveling the
| world (something I've done a lot of and love) would get 250+
| comments on HN.
| mrb wrote:
| << _I try to find non-traditional tourist destinations. Cities
| that are viewed as ugly, or without a lot to see. Cities where
| the residents are more focused on living their life, for
| themselves, not for a global audience._ >>
|
| This resonates so much with an experience I have had once. My
| wife and I visited Japan for a couple weeks and we went to 4
| cities: 3 big classic ones (Tokyo, Kyoto, Hiroshima), and a small
| city that a relative used to live in: Beppu, which is not at all
| a tourist destination. In fact Beppu is so off the radar that one
| of the only guided tours available there to see local gardens and
| one monastery was by a guide who didn't even speak English. I
| didn't see a single restaurant menu in English. There was not
| much to do except randomly exploring neighborhoods and trying
| random shops, walking along canals, people-watching, bathing in
| the local hot springs (which were completely empty), etc. We were
| immersed in a tiny city with just people living their normal
| lives. And yet, Beppu was my most favorite experience in Japan.
| It felt like the real Japan.
| bnralt wrote:
| The thing is, most people in most cities are living for
| themselves, not a global audience. Even a place like New York
| isn't all Broadway and haute couture, and there are a number of
| interesting neighborhoods that are generally overlooked by
| tourists.
|
| I saw this recently with the issue of migrants in Martha's
| Vineyard, where people thought the entire island was populated
| by millionaires. There's a lot of wealthy people who go to
| these places for the summer, but the year-round population is
| much more complex. About 1/5 of the population are actually
| recent immigrants from Brazil[1], and if you look at the local
| school notices you'll see they're printed in English and
| Portuguese.
|
| In an effort to get an "authentic" experience, it's possible to
| overlook the authentic experiences that are right in front of
| us.
|
| [1]
| https://web.archive.org/web/20220920163318/https://www.busin...
| sosborn wrote:
| Beppu is one of those places that lives off of domestic
| tourism. I wouldn't say it's the "real" Japan, but it is
| certainly in the realm of "traditional" japan.
| ambrose2 wrote:
| The main historical attraction was for the hot springs.
| [deleted]
| bodge5000 wrote:
| I've never travelled before (other than the usual British
| holidays to france and spain, in which you make an immediate
| detour to the first red lion you see and kind of just sit around
| that for a week), but have recently been feeling like I should at
| least try it. The problem is, I have no idea where to start,
| where to go or what to do. I don't really have any opinions on
| where I'd want to go because its never been something I've
| considered doing.
|
| Ideally, it'd be really nice to find a group of people who also
| want to go travelling and who are also more into it that I can
| join along with. Not like a tour guide, I'm not a huge fan of
| strict activites and basically just want to go foreign pubs, but
| a few people who I can socialise with and who know what they're
| doing, that'd be great, but so far Google hasn't turned up a lot.
|
| Anyone have any advice for somone like me? For some reason I know
| the more granular advice like "travel light", but don't really
| have a clue about the much broader stuff like "go to x"
| virgildotcodes wrote:
| If you're looking to meet a group of people to go to foreign
| pubs with, especially (but not strictly) if you happen to be in
| your 20s and 30s, just stay in social hostels.
|
| You can occasionally find sites that highlight the most social
| "party" hostels in each town, or you can get a feel for it
| based on if their pictures feature extensive communal areas, an
| on-premises bar, pool tables, etc.
|
| Basically go to any destination that seems appealing, stay at
| one of those hostels in the dorms, and you'll make friends
| quickly.
|
| It's not all about just getting trashed together, oftentimes
| the people around you will tip you off to what's worth seeing
| and doing in the area, and will even want to join you or have
| you join their group and go do these things together.
|
| It can be a lot of fun, not to mention typically the cheapest
| option for housing while traveling.
|
| Edit: More to the point of "go to x" - I'd highly recommend
| Southeast Asia as a great entry point to travel. It's
| beautiful, very different from Europe/North America so it
| really feels like you're traveling, it's got the gorgeous
| tropical beaches, rainforests, beautiful architecture, unique
| street food scene, etc that all feel very foreign to anyone
| who's lived in the West for most of their lives, it's
| overwhelmingly safe, probably the cheapest place in the world
| to travel ($3-$10/night for a hostel, $1-2 for a meal from a
| street vendor), and it's a very popular destination with plenty
| of hostels and fellow travelers to meet at those hostels and
| befriend.
|
| In terms of a couple specific destinations to start out with,
| take a look at Thailand, especially Koh Phangan and Koh Phi
| Phi, and Bali (Canggu and Ubud areas).
| edent wrote:
| The trick, I find, is to start small and see what you like
| doing.
|
| My advice would be - go to Rotterdam. Take the Eurostar there,
| pick literally any hotel.
|
| Open up Google maps, find some bars. Pick a couple of museums
| or parks. Built a rough itinerary for, say, a long weekend. If
| there's a Pride event on, that's fun. If not, just go
| wandering.
|
| Everyone there speaks decent English. Food and beer is great.
| Good culture. Adequate weather. If you're gregarious, chat to
| people in bars, clubs, concerts. If not, look at Greeters -
| https://internationalgreeter.org/
|
| They're locals who will show you around the city.
|
| Have fun!
| bodge5000 wrote:
| Never heard of Greeters before, that sounds fantastic! Also
| nice to finally have an idea of somewhere to go, that helps
| tremendously
|
| Cheers for the help!
| duxup wrote:
| Some of my best experiences were off the beaten path. Having said
| that I kinda question this idea how local or representative of
| local life those experiences were. I also would not what to have
| missed out on the big attractions either... I can't imagine
| skipping the Louvre, not seeing David...
|
| For an article by someone who travels a lot there's a tone here
| like that friend who comes back from some trip to tell you how
| much more amazing X place is and all the wonderful things they do
| better. Things that are different often make big impressions. I'm
| always skeptical of these ideas, how many people you meet, what
| that really represents and so on.
|
| Otherwise I probably agree with most things in the article,
| granted somewhat aspirationally (I wish I could pack that light)
| ;)
| Chris_arnade wrote:
| I wrote the article. So you can yell at me here. Thanks again for
| all the interesting comments. Hacker news is the best. One of the
| few places I read the comments and learn.
| localhost wrote:
| Hey Chris - I wanted to drop a note here to thank you for what
| you've done for me personally. I found you first on Twitter I
| don't know how long ago and your posts there really brought
| home to me the point about how we were all talking past each
| other and don't engage in real conversations with people who
| might have different viewpoints from our own.
|
| When my kids were younger we went on a camping trip every
| summer in a state park. There was this one group of people that
| we would hang out with each year (I called it "redneck corner")
| who were easily the most friendly and welcoming people in the
| entire campground. They would feed you, watch your kids, hand
| you a beer when you came by and we would just sit by the
| campfire and shoot the shit until the wee hours of the morning.
| They had nothing in common with me and my world and I loved it.
| I still remember their stories today.
|
| Reading this post of yours today reminded me of those times,
| your writings (I loved Dignity), and the need for me to get out
| of my private office in my house and actually meet people who
| are different from me again. Until I figure out how to do that,
| I want to thank you for everything that you do to help me
| better understand the world a little bit better.
| Chris_arnade wrote:
| Wow. So many comments. I wish I could respond to all, but life.
|
| Thanks again and always enjoy when a post of mine makes it to
| Hacker news. I appreciate the feedback, and actually listen to
| it, and when wrong, try to adjust.
|
| Thanks again!
| ravishi wrote:
| I loved the article. It puts to words some patterns I have been
| developing in my mind throughout the years. I haven't got the
| experience to go that hardcore on localness yet, so my current
| algo is to seek destinations where the locals go to tourist. I
| find it a confortable middle ground between the shiny global
| touristy places and "contrarian ultra-local" places (if I can
| borrow a term tossed around here, not judging the article in
| any way).
| Aunche wrote:
| >When I decided to go to Vietnam, everything and everyone told
| me to go to Ho Chi Minh City. It had better food. More art.
| More high culture. Less government. So I went to Hanoi.
|
| >The US equivalent is to go to Indianapolis instead of NYC or
| Houston instead of LA.
|
| This is a really odd thing to say when Hanoi is the second
| largest city in Vietnam (larger than LA) and a huge tourist
| destination in itself. It's more akin to choosing LA instead of
| NYC.
| neither_color wrote:
| Ive been to both and I definitely considered Hanoi more
| (locally) cultured. Also the comparison to Indianapolis
| doesn't make sense a smaller east coast US city like
| Washington DC or Boston makes more sense as it's a cultural
| and ideological center of the country.
| piffey wrote:
| Did you leave District 1? Just curious. HCM didn't hit for
| me until I started getting out of that curated core.
| koyote wrote:
| I thought that was a very weird comment as well and your
| comment about it being like choosing between NYC and LA is
| spot on.
|
| I am also surprised there's no mention of train travel. I
| found this the best way to get to know a country and its
| people. When you're stuck on a train for hours you end up
| talking to your fellow passengers.
|
| India was great for this as everyone was chatty and spoke
| decent English. Vietnam was a bit more of a challenge on the
| language front but you still got to have some interesting
| conversations in basic English with some help by showing
| pictures.
|
| I did not go very far off the beaten path in Vietnam but I
| really enjoyed the vibe and night life in Hue.
| hmillison wrote:
| I would argue that Hanoi is more touristy than Ho Chi Minh so
| this comparison just tells me the author doesn't know what he
| is talking about
| hayst4ck wrote:
| Hanoi feels more novel to Americans than Ho Chi Minh, which
| feels like a fairly generic city. At least that's how I
| felt visiting the two.
|
| Another thing you have to remember is that there are a lot
| of southern Vietnamese in the US, who brought their food
| with them. The average American has experienced more of
| south Vietnam than north without ever having visited.
|
| Seeing the difference between a city that I perceived to be
| kind of emulating western culture (Ho Chi Minh), versus
| Hanoi, which has a culturally distinct feel about it, can
| reasonably lead a person to see a touristy city as a more
| cultural experience.
|
| From an ameri-centric point of view, HCM is inundated with
| a kind of unpleasant or generic tourism (eat at these
| places, eat on a boat, go to this market, go to this tower,
| go to these museums, go to these "palaces," climb into
| vietnamese tunnels) compared to Hanoi where a lot of the
| tourism is related to both food and how beautiful the
| country is. It's kind of the difference between "this food
| is objectively good" and "this food is new and
| interesting."
| abliefern wrote:
| I generally would agree that touristy city centers tend to feel
| similar to each other, be polished and therefore boring.
| However, your example of Hanoi couldn't be more hilariously
| misguided. Your characterisation of touristy areas ("places of
| quaint storefronts mobbed with American retirees, hip bars
| filled with plastered 25 year old Brits, and a few monuments
| with millions of Instagram posts. Despite being in very
| different cities, they all feel the same. You have your five
| star hotels. Your restaurants that everyone says you have to go
| to. Your buildings plastered with historic plaques") is
| completely off the mark. The old town of Hanoi is precisely
| where locals go in the evenings for a cheap beer on the streets
| - it doesn't get more typically Vietnamese than that. And the
| old town of Hanoi definitely does not feel the same as anywhere
| else, even just within South East Asia, Hanoi is known as a
| very special place.
|
| Don't get me wrong, exploring other areas of Hanoi is a
| wonderful experience as well.
| ravedave5 wrote:
| Unfortunately people are only seeing the bad in this article. I
| do similar things with my family but not so extreme. I've
| really found that restaurants/food are the keys to
| understanding the local culture. I will never forget in Pureto
| Rico we found a back street lechonera, when we were getting
| food I asked the woman behind us what was good to eat. She
| helped us then we sta with her for lunch. My family ended up
| spending almost 2 hours talking to her over lunch and got deep
| in to PR politics and such. An amazing experience.
|
| What I've found helps the most is asking questions. Any time
| you can ask someone a question they open up and you end up
| making connections and learning so much. Usually it's simple
| stuff like sitting at a full bar and asking the person next to
| you how the sandwich is, or what is on their pizza. Next thing
| you know you're making a friend and you're actually having real
| conversations with locals.
| Scarblac wrote:
| Speaking as a NW European: talking to random people and
| asking them random questions is like the perfect way to stand
| out as a foreigner, probably American :-)
|
| Eat in silence and leave others to their own, that's the key
| to the local culture here. Especially in situations like
| public transport, people like their silence on their commute.
| imnotreallynew wrote:
| Are there any cultures, other than American, that are the
| exact opposite of this?
| rntksi wrote:
| Using google maps to spot out a non-touristy area was
| ingenious.
|
| I live near the spot you showed in the example that you picked.
|
| I would suggest next time trying out another method, not based
| on restaurants, but on using Historical Map: look at the city
| and go back 100 years, then look at the city in the present,
| and either choose a place that has not changed at all, or a
| place that was a slum and now is housing.
| quyleanh wrote:
| Saigon is also good choice for your travel. Don't be biased by
| people talking. I can see some parts of me in your post when I
| went to Saigon. (Fun fact: I'm Vietnamese living in Hanoi)
|
| Next time if you have time, come and enjoy your education in
| Saigon.
| Chris_arnade wrote:
| Thanks! Will do. I also went to Hanoi so I could explore the
| towns around the Chinese border. That didn't go so well. But
| was interesting.
|
| Thanks again
| postsantum wrote:
| Can you elaborate? What was wrong with them?
| Vrondi wrote:
| How do you get PB&J through airport security?
|
| Also, can you somehow turn off your subscription popup on your
| website just on the "About" page (where I'm not reading any of
| your content yet)?
|
| You seem to have some nice candid photography.
| elil17 wrote:
| How do you not get the PB&J through airport security? You can
| bring any food. The ban on liquids is because liquid
| explosives can't be frozen. So anyone bringing most okay
| liquids (e.g. soup) can just freeze it but people trying to
| bring something very flammable (e.g. ethanol) wouldn't be
| able to.
| llbeansandrice wrote:
| My buddy had a jar of peanut butter confiscated because it
| was a "cream"
| elil17 wrote:
| Should have gotten chunky /s
|
| More seriously, though, your friend would have needed to
| either freeze the peanut butter or put it on a sandwich
| in a serving of less than 3.4 ounces.
| phlarbough wrote:
| I agree that there's a lot of value in traveling beyond the
| beaten tourist path, especially with the bit that this path
| tends to have a certain sameness to it, regardless of where you
| actually are. However I disagree with going out of your way to
| avoid it. Writing off entire cities because they're big or
| popular is needlessly contrarian. If you're seeking the lived
| experience of locals, why not go visit the NYC-equivalent of
| their country?
|
| Also can't help but point out your characterization of Hanoi as
| the Indianapolis of Vietnam is ridiculous. Perhaps in
| comparative size, but Hanoi is the old capital of Northern
| Vietnam, and remains a fascinating vestige of what "old"
| Vietnam was like. No offense, but Indianapolis is Indianapolis.
| Chris_arnade wrote:
| I don't write off entire cities. I do make choices with
| limited time. As I write,
|
| "That doesn't mean entirely ignoring places like NYC,
| Istanbul, Seoul, or Tokyo. Some cities are so important they
| can't be missed, and every city is a confederation of very
| different neighborhoods. NYC is as much Dyker Heights as it
| is Upper East Side.
|
| That makes where you stay in a city more important than the
| city itself. "
|
| I wasn't attempting to suggest Hanoi is the Indianapolis of
| Vietnam. I was Just using a stretched example to go to the
| less obvious place. Maybe I'm wrong, but the vibes I got here
| in my world is Hanoi is the less obvious place compared to
| Saigon.
| Markoff wrote:
| Less obvious place would be Ninh Binh (my favorite place
| and experience from visiting Vietnam), not the first/second
| most famous place in Vietnam everyone knows (Hanoi/Saigon),
| or at least go for Danang, Hue, Hoi An, Nha Trang and all
| of these are on tourist trail anyway.
| latchkey wrote:
| The most interesting and beautiful places in Vietnam are not in
| the large cities. It is the countryside and the places that
| foreigners almost never travel to.
|
| The places where you don't see another white person for weeks
| on end (mostly in the North West of Hanoi... especially Ha
| Giang area).
|
| The places that are really hard to travel in if you don't have
| a local who can speak the language. Why hard? Because just
| getting food or even a place to crash in a random tiny town
| late at night (because it took you too long to drive there), is
| a real struggle.
| brudgers wrote:
| To the degree I have a difference of opinion, it is around the
| idealization of planning and packing light.
|
| I believe the most excellent choices are best made on the
| ground and the expedition is a great way to explore.
|
| The airport genericizes travel. It removes distance and
| vastness and remoteness.
|
| Flying gives you an MP3 - and that may be good enough - but it
| is not the band playing live in someone's living room.
|
| Getting there puts the flyer among travelers very much similar
| dealing with very much the same things at the same time.
| Airport food, flight delays, seat pitch, luggage limitations,
| etc., etc.
|
| Traveling light as virtue is heavy baggage exchanged for a 61
| key synth and a worn tea kettle.
|
| YMMV.
| googlryas wrote:
| Your viewpoint on walking matches my own. I refuse cabs when
| traveling. However, public transit is usually fair game for me,
| because that seems part of the culture itself and should be
| experienced.
|
| Have you ever visualized your GPS tracks(if available) of your
| walks around a city?
| zackmorris wrote:
| I'm from Idaho, I feel like someone could drop me anywhere in
| the world and I'd probably do ok. Unless there's humidity j/k
| :-P
|
| Kind of a random question, but what do you think about van life
| aka Instagram tourism?
|
| We're seeing a lot of stacked rock piles, trash left at
| campsites, defaced natural formations, just people in general
| crowding into areas that used to be "secret". We have a sense
| that people visiting here don't share our values around leaving
| no trace. Is that happening everywhere? Is it a trend? Will it
| get better or worse? Etc etc.
| com2kid wrote:
| You seem to object to doing touristy stuff, but you neglect the
| fact that locals also do touristy stuff[1]. I agree going to
| resort towns is silly, but anyone with a keen eye will learn a
| lot about local culture just walking around and observing in
| any neighborhood.
|
| My favorite observation, Chinese apartments with dedicated
| areas to hang dry clothing outside, the drying area is fenced
| off, in some places I saw, using decorative columns, with
| line/bar put up to hang clothing on. Apartments have a large
| window that opens to the fenced off area, and a stick with a
| hook on the end is used to put clothing out on hangers. There
| is still some privacy of what is being hung up, and it looks
| much neater, and presumably it keeps birds and such away.
|
| Wonderful bit of home design.
|
| Another bit that stuck with me, I was staying at an AirBNB in
| downtown Mexico City, when I went out in the morning I saw
| store owners mopping down the fronts of their stores to get rid
| of the dust and grime. I've never seen stores in the US care
| enough to bother.
|
| [1] If you come to the Pacific Northwest and don't hike a
| mountain or go out on a lake, why the heck did you come and
| visit in the first place? And as a third gen Seattle resident,
| I've done plenty of shopping at Pike Place Market.
| mhitza wrote:
| Please get rid of that subscription popup.
|
| OR make it only show on consecutive visits (not the first one),
| and make the "let me read this first" option a bit more
| obvious. I've been looking aimlessly for an obvious X or No and
| missed the option the first time around.
| jason-phillips wrote:
| You can block the HTML element yourself with uBlock Origin's
| dropper tool.
| Chris_arnade wrote:
| That's a substack thing that I'm completely unaware of and I
| think powerless to do anything about.
| bluekite2000 wrote:
| You missed out on Saigon by picking Hanoi though :)
| Chris_arnade wrote:
| Ha. Yeah. Maybe next time.
| gxespino wrote:
| The whole point of the article is that he prefers to "miss
| out"
| [deleted]
| em-bee wrote:
| i have been traveling with a similar aim, to get to know people
| and learn about the day-to-day life. and i wish i would have
| had some of your ideas. like eating at the same restaurant
| frequently to get to know the people there. i used couchsurfing
| (and earlier equivalents) to find locals to stay with.
|
| i agree with most of what you say. maybe not the part about
| picking the worst season. i'd mellow that one to "avoid tourist
| seasons". i want to go somewhere there there are not many other
| foreigners.
|
| i also went one step further after i finished studying, and
| went to places to actually work there, for 6 months, or a year,
| or more. in one decade i lived in a dozen different countries.
| i always connected to local linux user groups and local
| chapters of other communities that i was part of. (if you
| practice some sport, then join the local sports club to
| continue practicing). i went to local tech events, even if they
| were in a language i didn't speak. just showing up regularly
| allowed me to make new friends.
|
| one thing that was important to me is that i intentionally
| didn't reading anything about the places i went to. i want to
| experience a place without it being colored through the reports
| of other foreigners.
|
| and in a manner i am still traveling. i have been back home to
| visit, but i haven't lived there for more than 20 years.
| Chris_arnade wrote:
| "and went to places to actually work there, for 6 months, or
| a year, or more" -- yeah if you have the ability to do that
| (job, family, etc) that is a great way to live IMO.
|
| You mention the local linux groups. My brother, who does
| something similar to you, uses the local Ping Pong clubs. He
| is a top rated player, and its enough of a niche sport, but
| one that is everywhere, that its a great international
| community
| russnewcomer wrote:
| Hey, Chris - I think one of the difficulties I had with your
| article(and with other writing like it), having lived outside
| the US and trying to travel like this occasionally then, is
| that we don't really get to live as the locals live. I spent
| most of my time in one specific corner of the world, and I see
| a difference of thought process in people who are tourists,
| people who travel, and people who live in another culture. I
| think you're in the second category, which is not bad, but I
| think that there is a real sense of particular place missing
| from your writing, while there is a distinct mindset missing
| from my place (the third category) that lead to both
| intrinsically lacking the full appreciation of the other. When
| we travel, we live like some facsimile of local life if we stay
| in an AirBnB and go to local places, but we still are
| relatively rich, white (?male?) people with the option to leave
| the place when we want to, and don't get a good, deep sense of
| the culture. It's hard to be a real regular somewhere, for
| example, when it's clear that you are a rich visitor who will
| be coming regularly for a while, spending a good amount of
| money, and then leaving. From your writing, for example, I felt
| like you misunderstood the compliment that Jamal, the Turkish
| restaurant owner, gave you when he complimented the economic
| status that has allowed you to gain weight. I lived somewhere
| in a decent amount of privilege while working for several
| years, and it was only after regular, constant, and questioning
| exposure to the culture that I began to understand it past the
| surface. I don't see how your wide travel to many different
| cultures lets you get a deep understanding of any specific one.
|
| Put another way, (which can seem attacking, not my intent, I
| just can't think of a way to say this better in a short
| comment) the tourist has an experience an inch wide and an inch
| deep, the traveler has an experience a mile wide and a foot
| deep, and the person who goes to live in a third country for a
| term that includes the word years has an experience a foot wide
| and a mile deep. We just should all recognize what our
| experiences are.
|
| Solid writing, rolling is the way for clothes, one backpack
| where at all possible(mine was larger than yours, but still so
| much easier to just carryon when going to visit somewhere), and
| I greatly enjoyed my visits to place I described as 'Wichita,
| $COUNTRY', just not as much as living somewhere for years.
| bnralt wrote:
| Even foreigners living in a country among the locals people
| often miss a lot. That shouldn't be surprising, we miss a ton
| of stuff even in our own country while speaking the same
| language. Have you ever heard someone from your country tell
| foreigners about what people in your country are like, and
| thought "what are they talking about"?
|
| There's just so much variation, it's hard to really say. I've
| known people who lived in a country for years, don't speak
| the language, and live in their small expat circle. I've
| known typical tourist types who found themselves living among
| the locals because they ended up on a local tour. Or people
| that don't live in a country, but have studied the language
| and consumed the local media to an extent that they have a
| better understanding of a lot of cultural trends than people
| who lived or visited the place.
|
| In the end, it's probably best to let go of the idea that any
| one person is going to see the "true" place, or that one city
| is more "authentic" than another. Everyone, even the locals,
| are just going to know some piece of a much larger whole. I'm
| not sure how useful it is to argue about which piece is
| better than the others.
| gopher_space wrote:
| Enjoyed the article! I saw your line about not really caring
| what you look like and wanted to add that throwing a collared
| shirt and light sweater into your bag will open many, many
| doors.
| jdpedrie wrote:
| Hey Chris, just wanted to say I love Dignity, and enjoy
| listening to you on various podcasts. The Econtalk episode and
| the recent Lamp Magazine ones were great!
| Chris_arnade wrote:
| Thanks so much. Really appreciate that.
| pjmorris wrote:
| Thank you for writing 'Dignity.' I've read it, shared it, given
| it away.
|
| You gave a tip during a panel in Chapel Hill about learning
| from others by switching where to get your morning coffee, e.g.
| from Starbucks to McDonalds, or more local places. I've added
| it to my list of tactics and am richer for it.
| glonq wrote:
| My sister and her husband have been travelling throughout asia
| and south america this way for years. It's a great way to stretch
| the budget; they can get 4 months of travel out of what a typical
| tourist might spend in 1 or 2 months.
|
| It wouldn't work for me, but I really respect that they're able
| to do it.
| tomxor wrote:
| Depending on the country this can ring very true when it comes to
| food in my experience. i.e where popular = worse.
|
| The most extreme experience I had was for a brief stay in
| Thailand, where the main tourist streets are filled with
| ridiculously glamorous looking and very busy restaurants serving
| the blandest meals (by anyone's opinion) with the most watered
| down and expensive drinks I've ever had. I don't think anyone
| could ever eat at one more than once.
|
| But within only a couple streets distance you can find amazing
| street food for a fraction of the price and eat like a king,
| which is exactly what all the locals were eating. Some westerners
| might be a little worried about hygiene but they cook it right in
| front of you and honestly I think the tourist restaurants were a
| complete facade and are probably have far less hygienic kitchens
| hidden away... Since then, in foreign lands, I'm more wary of
| places filled with tourists and few locals.
| Hakeemmidan wrote:
| > And like good fiction, travel changes you. For the better.
| Mostly.
|
| Fiction changes you? For the better?! Mostly?!?!?!? I need some
| expansion on this. I have been living in the non-fiction
| darkness.
| guggalugalug wrote:
| Great literature -- not airport bestsellers, of course. How
| could a deep, intimate window into another part of our shared
| human condition _not_ change you? Mostly for the better.
| renewiltord wrote:
| His photos are great. The article does come across a little full
| of itself, but I think it's overall a solid idea. Personally, I
| allocate very little time to traveling these days so I'm forced
| to squeeze in the big wins: i.e. if I go to Tanzania I'm going to
| go see the wildebeest on the Serengeti. That's just how it is.
|
| But I have to say, looking back, the most fun moments were less
| curated. And one example that I remember is walking through Gent
| with a friend of mine, feeling hungry, and stopping at one of
| those kebab stores. My friend and I had traveled to Turkey at
| some earlier time so when we asked the guy running the store (who
| was quite obviously Turkish) if he knew where I could get some
| fistikli kadayif (the wrong i but my keyboard is US) we ended up
| having a really fun conversation with someone who hadn't been to
| the country of his birth in a decade and really just enjoyed
| talking about it.
|
| Personally, I'm a huge fan of these human connections. I really
| wish I could mind-meld with people and just absorb and share
| everything I've seen and they've seen and experienced. We can't,
| so this is what we get.
|
| But besides that, when I as young I wrote copy for a bunch of
| these sites/magazines freelance and the 'research' was incredibly
| shallow. So what you're going to get is some teenager's online
| echo of some other teenager's online echo. Then everyone is
| convinced that only Giovanni's Shrimp Truck is the place to go.
| So if you just go next door to the other shrimp truck without the
| line, you'll get 99% experience with 1% trouble.
|
| Following the herd has its value in that shared experiences
| themselves are of value but there's fun to be had in not that,
| too.
| kylehotchkiss wrote:
| This blog post is a nice guide! Some additions:
|
| * Pack immodium for food sickness, this style of travel
| guarantees it. Add some ORS packets to your bag too (don't just
| trust gatorade or whatever)
|
| * The new iPhone SE blends in remarkably well everywhere, it
| looks like a 7 year old phone.
|
| * I feel much better in foreign hotels than AirBNBs. They
| generally adhere to some form of security backed by a legal
| standard, as far as door locks, and having guards on the property
| goes. AirBnB is great in trust-based societies, which travelers
| on the beaten path are not visiting.
|
| * As cheap as possible for flights isn't the wisest choice,
| especially after covid where a lot of low cost carriers have cut
| corners on maintenance (see google news for spicejet over the
| past few months for more)
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