[HN Gopher] JetBrains invites developers to join the Fleet Publi...
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JetBrains invites developers to join the Fleet Public Preview
Program
Author : topka
Score : 318 points
Date : 2022-10-12 11:24 UTC (11 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (blog.jetbrains.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (blog.jetbrains.com)
| Kukumber wrote:
| They made a mistake to keep using the JVM..
|
| They should have went with kotlin-native from the start
|
| EDIT:
|
| Ok i gave it a try, so far very responsive, typing latency feels
| much better than vscode, overall i like the UX, they kept it
| simple yet very well organized
|
| Much better than vscode already, congrats!
| speed_spread wrote:
| Native code makes it much harder to design a runtime plugin
| system. Also, other than fast startup and lower memory usage,
| native code does not make the app faster.
| MatthiasPortzel wrote:
| I don't know what you're looking at, but time-to-start is a
| huge factor for me. If I'm using a program as a text editor
| (as opposed to an IDE), I want to be able to open a file,
| edit it, and then close it. When I heard JetBrains was
| working on a lightweight text editor, I was hoping for
| something I could use in this way, but Fleet takes 5 seconds
| to launch and auto-closes after closing all files. So I'm a
| little disappointed.
| Kukumber wrote:
| > Native code makes it much harder to design a runtime plugin
| system
|
| That's not true, lua, lua-jit, quickjs, v8, c#, even java
|
| Game engines already have the lead in that area and they
| proved that it's possible and can be made very efficient
|
| The UI and host of the program should be native to maximize
| performance
|
| Native code helps write fast code that runs fast with
| optimized memory layouts
| Mikeb85 wrote:
| > Game engines already have the lead in that area and they
| proved that it's possible and can be made very efficient
|
| Game engines basically implement their own "runtime". They
| all have stuff like memory management, scripting languages
| (and usually plugins use the scripting API), and the game
| is just a package of assets and code that are run by the
| engine...
| vips7L wrote:
| And if OP is concerned with latency, you're not going to beat
| the JVM's latency sensitive GC's.
| vips7L wrote:
| Kotlin native is barely usable... it doesn't even have a
| standard library.
| onebot wrote:
| I would love this if it wasn't also built on the Java runtime. I
| hoped the "from ground up" rewrite to include a new much more
| performant backend that didn't burn resources. To be fair, I even
| think VSCode is too slow. I have been loving Helix Editor since
| it gives a great out-of-the box experience for terminal. But
| craving a better VSCode replacement. Had high hopes for Fleet,
| but I guess you can't teach an old dog new tricks.
| kobepanda wrote:
| I've been liking https://zed.dev/ for something that gives me
| more smarts out of the box than Sublime Text but maintains the
| responsiveness. Limited set of languages but it supports the
| ones I use on the daily
| pgo wrote:
| Would you happen to have an invite for zed.dev ? I typically
| have 10-15 VSCode windows open and have been looking for an
| performant but modern IDE
| kobepanda wrote:
| Yes I have a few - is the email in your profile current?
| pgo wrote:
| Yes, palash [at] dyte.io Thanks for the invite
| randomsearch wrote:
| A bit OT but if any JetBrains employees read this: please, please
| could you change the icon for webstorm? It is so ugly that it
| hurts my eyes. I will pay you to change the icon. Thanks.
| fayten wrote:
| Some neat info on the performance side of things, Fleet is using
| Skija[1] and Compose[2] as a rendering engine and UI framework.
| Skija is a java wrapper for Skia and still does not support the
| full API. Compose is still relatively new and has not had nearly
| the amount of man hours devoted to it as Swing. This is just a
| technical preview, I'm sure there will be plenty of optimizations
| to come. I think it's pretty exciting to see Skija being used for
| a mainstream project!
|
| [1] https://github.com/HumbleUI/Skija
|
| [2] https://github.com/JetBrains/compose-jb
| EddieRingle wrote:
| JetBrains Compose UI is using Skiko, not Skija:
| https://github.com/JetBrains/skiko
| fayten wrote:
| Oh my mistake, thanks for the info!
| tsvetkov wrote:
| Fleet does not use Compose, but it does use Skiko[1], which
| also provides binding for Skia[2] (the native graphics library
| also used by Chrome & Flutter).
|
| The main difference between the libraries is that Skija
| provides Java/JVM bindings for Skia, whereas Skiko provides
| Kotlin bindings for Kotlin/JVM, Kotlin/JS, and Kotlin/Native
| targets. Of course Skiko's Kotlin/JVM bindings can be used with
| other JVM languages, not just with Kotlin.
|
| [1] https://github.com/JetBrains/skiko
|
| [2] https://skia.org/
| nobleach wrote:
| I had high hopes that JetBrains would relent on their decision to
| avoid implementing a Language Server Protocol server. There is a
| 3rd party implementation out there, but it needs a lot of help. I
| realize this cuts into their core business... but it'd sure make
| using Vim to write Kotlin a more pleasant experience.
| tasubotadas wrote:
| Never seen language server come even close to what intellij
| offers.
| iudqnolq wrote:
| When I last used them for Rust about two years ago they were
| racing neck and neck against a language server being
| refactored to share a backend with the reference compiler.
|
| I switched to the language server because I felt running the
| actual compiler will in the long term always work better than
| writing your own parser. I was on the Jetbrains student
| discount, so I made a small recurring contribution to the
| rust language server project.
|
| I think in retrospect that was the correct decision. The
| language server team has done great work, and they support
| things impractical to do with just parsing like
| autocompleting functions defined by macros.
| dmitriid wrote:
| > running the actual compiler will in the long term always
| work better than writing your own parser.
|
| No, it won't. A compiler and an IDE code analyzer have
| completely different non-intersecting goals.
|
| As an example, consider error recovery. Where a compiler
| can just fail with an error, in an IDE you need to continue
| to provide full correct syntax highlighting, display all
| other potential errors and warnings, continue providing
| code analysis (including suggestions on how to fix the
| error) etc.
|
| > The language server team has done great work, and they
| support things impractical to do with just parsing like
| autocompleting functions defined by macros.
|
| None of these are provided by the language server team.
| These are provided by whoever wrote the code to analyze
| your stuff and provide data to the language server.
| mdaniel wrote:
| I once heard that an editor spends _the majority_ of its
| time in an error state, and only periodically someone
| stops typing in hopefully(!) a valid state. Thinking how
| to generate helpful recovery states in an ide 's parser
| sounds like an incredible amount of work
| nobleach wrote:
| While that's absolutely true, I'd be totally fine with what
| an LSP _does_ offer. Auto imports, go to definition, list
| usages, etc. I don't need the heavy refactoring tools.
| lopkeny12ko wrote:
| I'm pretty confused by the product positioning. If Fleet is built
| on the same technologies as other Jetbrains IDEs, describes
| itself as an IDE, and is natively polyglot, why _shouldn 't_ it
| replace the other language-based IDEs? From the marketing
| material, it's not clear to me the value proposition of, for
| example, IntelliJ compared to Fleet.
| ddorian43 wrote:
| > Run in a performant virtual machine with up to: 16 CPU cores 32
| GB Memory 40 GB Disk Drive
|
| Literally my laptop that I bought for $1300 3 years ago.
| nigerianbrince wrote:
| Model?
| ddorian43 wrote:
| Acer predator helios 300 (was $1000), 12vcores, 256GB NVME,
| upgraded to 32GB ram.
| Asdrubalini wrote:
| Rust support seems good and it's already integrated if you press
| the lightning button in the top right. Sadly no vim support so
| it's not really usable yet (at least for me).
| davb wrote:
| It's so slow to startup. On a laptop with 11th gen i5, 16GB ram
| and a fairly fast NVMe SSD running Windows 11 and I see ~10s
| startup time. I really hope it succeeds but for a lightweight
| editor it's just too slow to start.
| monlockandkey wrote:
| I just downloaded the Fleet beta from the App toolbox. First
| impressions is that it is very clean.
|
| This is essentially Vscode but with Jetbrains language and
| refactoring engine.
|
| Quick thoughts:
|
| - It needs a bit more autocomplete e.g automatically close tags
| for React components
|
| - GUI run configuration - they have made it so it uses a JSON
| file like Vscode to configure, GUI is quicker and easier (can
| still click run on gutter for package.json scripts so not that
| bad)
|
| - Sometimes you want to use Vscode to make some quick
| changes/play around instead of firing up an IDE. Fleet replaces
| that for me
|
| - Part of me think that Jetbrains should have created paid
| extensions for Vscode much like Resharper for Visual Studio
| suchar wrote:
| > - Part of me think that Jetbrains should have created paid
| extensions for Vscode much like Resharper for Visual Studio
|
| IIRC, JetBrains considers LSP to be too limiting for
| refactoring and code-insight capabilities that they want to
| provide (I think they said that when there was discussion about
| language server for Kotlin). So it's possible that such
| extension wouldn't be on par with a "real" JetBrains IDE.
| RamblingCTO wrote:
| > - GUI run configuration - they have made it so it uses a JSON
| file like Vscode to configure, GUI is quicker and easier (can
| still click run on gutter for package.json scripts so not that
| bad)
|
| And better auto-complete for that. I tried to add my golang
| project, but had no clue what it wants from me for goExecPath
| or buildTargets. Why not show the help inside the editor? I had
| to google and look around (goExecPath is the actual link to the
| bin, not GOPATH or something) and buildTargets means files
| (main.go). The naming feels weird.
| anotherrandom wrote:
| Interesting! Looking forward to trying it out. I won't consider
| paying for it until it's at least FOSS though, like IntelliJ or
| PyCharm. I paid for those 2 products and those 2 products alone
| solely because they are free and open source (I can't get shafted
| by a sudden change in licensing and can switch to a functionally
| equivalent free version on a whim).
| cheeaun wrote:
| Just wondering, there's no way to launch Fleet directly without
| launching it from Toolbox or using CLI?
| hiyer wrote:
| It gets installed as an application, so you can open it with
| your usual app launchers on Mac and Linux (I haven't used it on
| Windows). You _can_ open it from the terminal also, but the
| path it gets installed in is a convoluted one and includes the
| version, so you will need to update your aliases /links every
| time a new version is installed.
| cheeaun wrote:
| Thanks! I guess I'm using Raycast (instead of Spotlight), so
| it actually need a reindex.
| cpctheman wrote:
| Unfortunately it doesn't look like this supports remote
| development (at least from what I can tell poking around their
| site).
|
| Until Gateway is performant & stable enough to use, I'm sticking
| with VSCode. It's a shame because I prefer IntelliJ for Java
| development, but lacking remote development stability is a deal
| breaker.
| Jtsummers wrote:
| https://www.jetbrains.com/help/fleet/install-on-a-remote-mac...
| - It seems it does support remote dev. Just played with it on
| my laptop and a Linux VPS I toss things onto from time to time,
| it worked alright. Haven't tried anything serious with it yet.
| When Fleet launched I had the option of connecting via SSH,
| specified the IP and port, and was able to connect. It uploaded
| some programs which run on the remote host to support the work.
| I was able to edit a program and then run it. There was also a
| terminal available on the remote host from inside Fleet.
| sz4kerto wrote:
| It's extremely far from IJ in terms of functionality, at the
| moment. I don't think Jetbrains will avoid the need of making
| Gateway stable too.
| nik736 wrote:
| Maybe this can replace Atom. But for that we need a OneDark theme
| :)
| moogly wrote:
| Looks pretty and well-designed. Snappy too, but they're going to
| have to work on the startup time.
|
| I'll check back in a year when it's a bit more feature rich. And
| when you can disable the smooth scrolling.
| dangerboysteve wrote:
| To use Fleet you have to download the JetBrains Toolbox. Really?
| Look, I'm a JB subscriber and have the toolbox, but Fleet should
| not require another app to launch or update itself.
| topka wrote:
| [JetBrains employee] In the future Fleet will be able to update
| itself. Right now, we use Toolbox App as it can do Fleet
| updates easier.
| ZeroCool2u wrote:
| I personally love Toolbox in our corporate environment. I
| just wish it would default to using system proxy settings on
| Windows and propagate Proxy settings to the IDE's it installs
| by default.
| mdaniel wrote:
| While I believe there are JB employees in this thread, your
| wish is more likely to be fulfilled if it is a formal
| ticket: https://youtrack.jetbrains.com/issues/TBX
| chunkyks wrote:
| And a better way to handle certs for it, and all the IDEs,
| behind a corporate MITM SSL proxy would really improve my
| day.
| ZeroCool2u wrote:
| Yes, absolutely!
| __warlord__ wrote:
| I installed this 30 min ago.
|
| 1. My M1 temp went from 28c to 60c
|
| 2. CPU utilization to 103%?
|
| 3. It's using 3.29Gb of RAM
|
| And it hasn't changed.
|
| With a single python project with 3k lines of code.
|
| VSCode sits at 280Mb and CPU temp around 28c.
|
| Edit:
|
| Vim + SpaceVim sitting at 17Mb :)
| nicce wrote:
| On my Linux, it barely consumes anything and opened 300k line
| code without a problem when VSCode crashed instead.
|
| I guess the OS matters.
| lbhdc wrote:
| I was experiencing similar performance problems on linux.
| Multiple cores pegged and multiple gb used while idling.
| bogwog wrote:
| Linux here, opened a folder with less than 3k loc in all
| files combined. It is currently in the background (smart mode
| is disabled), FF in the foreground. KDE system monitor is
| reporting 3%-5% CPU usage and 946,272K of memory usage. Also,
| if I move the window, my mouse becomes sluggish for about a
| second afterwards.
|
| By comparison, the exact same folder open in Sublime is using
| 789,236K of memory (most of which is likely cached from the
| indexer + LSP plugin which has accumulated over the past few
| days), and no CPU usage.
|
| Obviously this is an early preview, so it's not a fair
| comparison at all. I'm really excited for this though, as
| it's certainly very promising right now.
| sod wrote:
| While annoying, all intellij EAPs (early access previews) are
| very cpu intensive, as they run in debug mode by default to
| create diagnostics and crash reports. Kinda similar like if you
| would keep the debugger open in your browser. Not sure if you
| can disable it, but thats the main reason why I stopped using
| EAPs for work.
|
| But the ram is typical intellij, they take what they can get
| from the OS :)
| dixie_land wrote:
| > they take what they can get from the OS :
|
| It's the opposite, they run in JVM so there's an upper bound
| at around -Xmx ("around" because you still have stack
| allocated and JNI allocated, but heap is usually the biggest
| pool of memory by a large margin)
|
| on the flip side it also has a lower bound at -Xms
|
| Personally I have mine running with 16/32G heap. It's my work
| computer not like I need the 64G ram for gaming :)
| Bishonen88 wrote:
| any source on that claim? I.e. that eap are cpu intensive?
| lemming wrote:
| I don't have a source other than that I develop plugins for
| IntelliJ professionally, but it's definitely true that
| performance is generally not a focus earlier in EAP cycles.
| I think they mention it when you download an EAP release.
| sod wrote:
| I can't find a source to my claim. Just now downloaded
| webstorm 2022.2.3 stable and webstorm 2022.3 EAP to
| compare, but they seem to behave similar in cpu. Every now
| and then in the EAP in the activity monitor a "diagnostics
| dumper" pops up, but only for a brief moment. Maybe they
| improved it a lot. I remember complaining about EAP
| performance a long time ago and remembered an answer to
| expect a few more cpu usage from an EAP (the diff was not
| as stark as 100% though, it was more like 20% EAP vs 5%
| stable).
|
| I mean please don't judge the CPU profile of an EAP to the
| final product.
| zepearl wrote:
| > _But the ram is typical intellij, they take what they can
| get from the OS :)_
|
| Aha, thanks! I was wondering about that (using CLion 2021.3
| with Rust plugin with currently a tiny test project open,
| currently using 2.3 GiB RAM, puah)... .
| geodel wrote:
| Well, I think NexGen Cloud IDE crowd gonna love it. From your
| review I take it as it is the next _hot_ thing.
| n4bz0r wrote:
| Sounds like there is initial setup going on in the background.
| I highly doubt it will keep the CPU at 100% at all times unless
| there is a severe bug.
| [deleted]
| ksec wrote:
| I think, correct me if I am wrong, Fleet is written in Kotlin,
| hence running on top of JVM. ( I am assuming Kotlin Native not
| being used yet )
|
| While I dont think VSCode is fast and lean when compared to
| Sublime or other Native Editor. It is well optimised.
|
| I do wonder if Fleet could catch up or even exceed VSC in the
| performance / resources usage department.
| ta988 wrote:
| It totally could, the JVM is really fast. JS interpreters are
| fast too these days. So I don't expect much difference
| between the two.
|
| One department where the JVM may win is latency (the new GCs
| are incredibly fast so no impact there) for typing to
| display.
|
| Other than that I don't expect much difference.
| mjul wrote:
| Fleet, like the other JetBrains IDEs is indeed running on the
| JVM.
|
| It also has some components in Rust and a special GUI
| framework.
|
| There is a great series of blog posts about its architecture
| and design here with a lot of details:
|
| https://blog.jetbrains.com/fleet/2022/01/fleet-below-deck-
| pa...
| hbn wrote:
| I opened a project with about 230k lines of Java code on my
| Intel Mac, it's idling around 800MB of real memory. Though I
| don't have Smart Mode on
| daitangio wrote:
| It still a beta, so I think it can be acceptable BUT it is not
| tiny.
|
| What I like about VSCode is that is slick and lean without
| plugins, and with remote support it is still "light"... And I
| was a huge Emacs, Emacs-org fan, so if I use VSCode because it
| gets the work done at the end of the day (TM)
| dicknuckle wrote:
| I probably have that many LoC between all the open files in
| VScode on an M1 and also love the performance. Only issue I've
| had so far is the Terraform Language Server running 18 threads
| at all times and grabbing too much CPU once or twice a month.
| __warlord__ wrote:
| Yeah, I had the same issue with the terraform plugins, I
| honestly had to delete them. So far I haven't found an
| alternative but honestly I don't write that much terraform
| anymore.
| cguess wrote:
| Did you get the Apple Silicon version? The default download for
| MacOS was Intel for me, had to click the drop down.
| mjul wrote:
| I haven't experienced this with Fleet after using it some
| months.
|
| However, from using the other JetBrains tools the performance
| killer for builds and indexing libraries and documentation has
| typically been slow file system access.
|
| These IDE even warn you when they detect this. I don't remember
| seeing this warning in the Fleet preview.
|
| A common solution is to disable aggressive anti-virus scanning
| for you project folder and some key application folders so it
| does not slow down the build.
|
| Another cause is slow remote mounted file systems that you
| might have if you are using VMs, WSL or Docker.
|
| If I remember correctly the docs have detailed information
| about this.
| neilv wrote:
| I think the name is a little funny, and maybe the funny is so
| crude and juvenile, that no one was willing to mention it? Like
| the Pepsi logo, I can't unsee it.
|
| "OK, people, creative time! Blank slate, no second system
| syndrome. Let's rethink the JetBrains concept, from the bottom,
| up!"
|
| "Jet-- Butts?"
|
| "Will the JetButts brand fly in all markets? Riff alternatives?"
|
| "...Fleet?"
|
| "Explosive! Sounds fast and productive! Can we get a mark
| search?"
|
| https://www.amazon.com/s?k=fleet
| neilv wrote:
| Someone had to mention it before launch.
| robertlagrant wrote:
| > Fleet is an opportunity for us to provide a different user
| experience for developers
|
| Given they're presumably spending a lot on this development, it
| would be useful to give a bit more detail than this. What is
| different?
| mgkimsal wrote:
| It's free to download and try (well... it's in my 'toolbox').
|
| Comment I made to a friend earlier... Loads relatively quick.
| On par with or slightly faster than vscode on my M1. Very
| 'project unaware' up front, which may be OK for some uses.
| Might be a step up from vim for one-off changes. Collab seems
| easier/faster. No plugins(?). No UI to connect to other
| machines so far.
| [deleted]
| krzyk wrote:
| I wonder if it would be possible to use vim as the UI and connect
| to the backend of Fleet - best of both worlds.
| eddiezane wrote:
| This is my dream. Being able to use Fleet/JetBrains's backend
| as an LSP/DAP for Neovim. It sounds like the architecture is
| there with Fleet. Please JetBrains friends!
| pknerd wrote:
| Instead of coming up with a new project, why just they do not
| provide a community edition for each of their products? Currently
| they provide a CE edition for PyCharm only?
|
| I remember I loved the initial version of Goland a lot but found
| out it is not free and expired after a while, I switched back to
| VSCode and did not regret at all
| neverartful wrote:
| "Currently they provide a CE edition for PyCharm only?"
|
| If I'm not mistaken, I think they have a CE edition of IntelliJ
| (java) too.
| dbrgn wrote:
| "Instead of trying to innovate, why don't they just give out
| their existing products for free to customers that aren't
| willing to pay?"
|
| Jetbrains make good products. And it's great that they're
| trying to explore the potential for a more lightweight editor
| based on their technology.
| _fat_santa wrote:
| This looks really promising. But by far the biggest moat that
| Jetbrains is going to have to cross to get into VSCode territory
| is the plugin ecosystem. Personally I work on React projects so
| my first thought was: "is there a Prettier[1] plugin?". Looking
| through the landing page it looks like Plugins are in the works
| but until that is implemented, it's going to be hard adopting it.
|
| ALSO I just noticed this but can someone (ideally from JetBrains)
| explain what this line means: "Requires login and periodic
| connection to JetBrains servers to verify the project"
| (specifically the last 3 words of that sentence). Quite frankly
| this line is extremely alarming, are you saying that you're
| scanning my project to make sure it's not a "professional"
| project? I'm going to assume this line means that they are
| checking the IDE and not your source but I won't be using this
| product until I get an explanation for this. You can find this at
| the very bottom in the licensing and pricing section.
|
| [1]: https://prettier.io/
| syspec wrote:
| "New thing not perfect!"
| insane_dreamer wrote:
| Sounds like license verification.
| MikhailVink wrote:
| JetBrains employee here, and I can clarify the point about
| "Requires login and periodic connection to JetBrains servers to
| verify the project". If you are using Fleet in a Free (hobby)
| mode, we are verifying that the project comply with one of
| three criteria: 1. your project is local (no Git or Git
| Remote). 2. your project is public on GitHub. 3. your project
| is private but has less than 3 committers. In this case, we
| will need a periodic connection to JetBrains servers to
| exchange information verifying that you can use Fleet for free,
| but in no way we would send any sensitive information, such as
| source code, file names, etc.
|
| If you have Fleet license (paid, for example) there are no
| criteria checks at all, just the license verification with your
| JetBrains Account. And we plan to support offline usage similar
| to how it's done for IntelliJ IDEA-based IDEs now (offline
| license keys, floating license server.)
|
| Right now Fleet is in the EAP, and there are no licensing
| checks at all, they are not yet implemented, and we are not yet
| done with the verification workflow design.
| ihateolives wrote:
| Will the pricing be same for all users or do users with
| existing licences (e.g. Ultimate) get a discount on Fleet
| licence?
| MikhailVink wrote:
| We are not ready to share more details on pricing yet, but
| we are working on it. Will share as soon as we have it!
| TheCondor wrote:
| Emacs keys would be awesome...
| miroljub wrote:
| I never understood what's the point of Emacs keys without
| elisp and Emacs plugins. Emulating only the editor part of
| Emacs without the rest of what makes Emacs great is not
| something I would spend time on.
| evgen wrote:
| Muscle memory. I gave up on Emacs as an editor almost 15
| years ago but having spent the prior 15 using it for
| coding I still set most of my cli editing to use emacs
| key-bindings and use it in my IDEs.
| user3939382 wrote:
| Your IDEs' project management are broken for people who use
| git CLI (everyone?):
| https://youtrack.jetbrains.com/issue/IDEA-183490
|
| The issue is marked "shelved" while consistently active. Do
| you have any ability to run this up the flagpole, please? I
| and many others would be very grateful.
| mmastrac wrote:
| I don't care why but this is creepy. Use a token in a public
| repo, not some sort of callback scheme. My IDE should not be
| doing authorization checks that involve telling a third party
| what I'm working on, under any circumstances.
| matsemann wrote:
| Then don't use the product for free?
| mmastrac wrote:
| Or maybe... find a way to not be creepy? They're the ones
| trying to convince people to move from VSCode.
| bakuninsbart wrote:
| Luckily, Microsoft has a track record of being totally
| non-creepy about your data.
| Ygg2 wrote:
| Is that sarcasm?
| lghh wrote:
| The amount of data that VSCode collects dwarfs this
| though.
| mmastrac wrote:
| It's a single toggle to turn off all telemetry
| (anonymized, limited to feature usage - no reporting of
| source files/projects that I've seen), which takes a few
| seconds to configure at install time as it's literally a
| menu item (Code > Preferences > Telemetry):
|
| https://code.visualstudio.com/docs/getstarted/telemetry
|
| You can also dump all possible telemetry events at the
| command-line.
| FlyingSnake wrote:
| You can't really shut down all VSCode telemetry.
|
| Source:
| https://www.roboleary.net/tools/2022/04/20/vscode-
| telemetry....
| mmastrac wrote:
| FTA:
|
| > Next, I wanted to see what would happen when I disabled
| telemetry. After some activity, I checked the log, and
| found no events were logged. That is good.
| woojoo666 wrote:
| One paragraph after:
|
| > The absence of logged events doesn't mean that data is
| not being sent though! A more accurate way to see what is
| being sent out is to monitor your outgoing network
| traffic and analyze the packets.
|
| But unfortunately the author doesn't do that
|
| A bit further down they say
|
| > It looks like you cannot shut telemetry off 100%. These
| settings will opt you of most data sharing scenarios; but
| not all data sharing scenarios
|
| And even VSCodium doesn't take it all out
|
| > Even though we do not pass the telemetry build flags
| (and go out of our way to cripple the baked-in
| telemetry), Microsoft will still track usage by default.
| Tijdreiziger wrote:
| Source?
| datalopers wrote:
| I'll just stick with not using JetBrains software like I
| haven't for the past two decades. Bloated and slower than
| Eclipse.
| tomjen3 wrote:
| Doesn't everyone run a git init even if you never push it
| anywhere? My local projects usually get git with in an hour
| of me working on them.
| zamalek wrote:
| > your project is public on GitHub.
|
| What about Gitlab, or some other repo such as
| gitlab.gnome.org? This seems like it's ripe for edge cases.
| MikhailVink wrote:
| Yeah, right, I was not specific enough on this one. It'll
| definitely go beyond GitHub, extending to some other git
| solutions, but we don't have a decision whether it's "any"
| public repo or public repo hosted on the service from some
| list (like, GitHub, GitLab, Gitee, etc.) We'll look into it
| later on.
|
| gitlab.gnome.org - I'd expect it to be all open source,
| right? Open source program should cover such cases.
| MatthiasPortzel wrote:
| I really hope that in further investigation you
| (JetBrains) realize how futile it is to attempt to
| automate defining something like this.
|
| The best-case scenario I can imagine is that I have to
| enter a public URL into the editor that JetBrains can
| then `git clone` from their server.
|
| I can't imagine "JetBrains curates a list of all public
| git servers" ends well. (As a Tildegit user.)
| ZeroCool2u wrote:
| I'm sorry, I know this is off topic, but I've been looking
| around at the Fleet docs and can't quite find an answer to
| this so far, so just hoping you might have an answer.
|
| Does the front end stack of Fleet allow one to run it in a
| browser when using a remote back end? The same way you can
| run the back end of VS Code or JupyterLab on a server and
| render the front end in a browser tab?
|
| I understand you can run the front end locally on your
| desktop and the back end configured as a remote on a server,
| but the rendering of the front end in a browser is what I
| need for the dev environment I need to use at work[1].
|
| [1]: https://www.dominodatalab.com/
| topka wrote:
| Running fronted in browser is not possible at the moment.
| ZeroCool2u wrote:
| Got it, thank you!
| kstenerud wrote:
| Nope nope nope. This is creepy and I can guarantee that it'll
| be headache after headache. I'll stick to the alternatives so
| long as this is the policy. Not even going to look at it.
| borissk wrote:
| [off topic] Are you guys affected by the situation in Russia,
| or have all JetBrains employees left the country already?
| kyriakos wrote:
| New office opened in Cyprus, lots of positions open on
| their site. I assume they are expanding out of Russia.
| ta988 wrote:
| They have stated their position really clearly (and much
| more clearly than most companies):
| https://blog.jetbrains.com/blog/2022/03/11/jetbrains-
| stateme...
| borissk wrote:
| I wasn't asking about the company position...
| lostmsu wrote:
| "Suspending R&D" sounds like no work is done in Russia
| anymore.
| ryanklee wrote:
| It's not clear what you are asking then. You should
| clarify.
|
| The info in the link provided addresses the only concrete
| portion of your comment, which is that, yes, most Russian
| employees have moved elsewhere.
| Kostic wrote:
| They opened a company in Serbia so I guess that some of the
| Russian employees already moved to Belgrade.
| dmitriid wrote:
| > But by far the biggest moat that Jetbrains is going to have
| to cross to get into VSCode territory is the plugin ecosystem.
| Personally I work on React projects so my first thought was:
| "is there a Prettier[1] plugin?".
|
| This just reinforces my feeling that a major driver behind
| VSCode's popularity is that people just don't know better [1]
|
| 1. Download WebStorm (or IDEA) and write some React in it. And
| Typescript. Refactor. Move code around. Use suggestions. It's
| leaps and bounds ahead of VSCode
|
| 2. Open settings, navigate to plugins, type in Prettier. Oh
| look, there's the plugin. An official plugin from JetBrains
|
| [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/edit?id=33176123
| cztomsik wrote:
| > This just reinforces my feeling that a major driver behind
| VSCode's popularity is that people just don't know better
|
| I am very happy that VSCode is mostly just editor.
| mariusmg wrote:
| >It's leaps and bounds ahead of VSCode
|
| It's also paid vs free. For some reason, some people are very
| reluctant to pay for tools, even though they use them every
| day in their job.
| fedorareis wrote:
| It is precisely because I use it every day that I use
| VSCode. As much as I like some of the features of JetBrains
| IDEs I have also had more headaches with them than VSCode.
| For example at my previous employer our dev machines
| weren't great and I routinely needed to have multiple
| projects open at once. If I tried doing that in IntelliJ it
| would make my computer basically unusable. When I gave up
| and used VSCode for all of my projects I was able to have
| all the projects I needed open without any issues and
| without really losing any productivity. If JetBrains IDEs
| were lighter on the system I would consider switching back
| to them, but honestly at this point I don't see a benefit
| in switching back.
| sangnoir wrote:
| > For some reason, some people are very reluctant to pay
| for tools, even though they use them every day in their
| job.
|
| I used to pay Jetbrains annually, out of my own pocket. I
| continued paying fir a personal license even after my
| employer bought me another license. Jetbrains then made a
| stupid, greedy decision[1] (and walked or back within
| days), but I was done with them and canceled my
| subscription.
|
| Since then, my experience/growth, languages tech stacks and
| codebases have connived to make Jetbrains superior
| discoverability moot (not using Java!), I found out other
| IDEs are good enough for me.
|
| 1. Some years back, they decided on an IDE-as-a-service
| path where they were going to brick your IDE the day your
| subscription lapsed. The fact that they _thought_ this was
| acceptable and _announced_ it means they cannot be trusted,
| IMO.
| lemming wrote:
| _Some years back, they decided on an IDE-as-a-service
| path where they were going to brick your IDE the day your
| subscription lapsed._
|
| No they didn't. This is a total mischaracterisation of
| how JB's subscription works.
| dmitriid wrote:
| > For some reason, some people are very reluctant to pay
| for tools, even though they use them every day in their
| job.
|
| This also really baffles me. You can see it a lot in
| various discussions even here on HN.
| HideousKojima wrote:
| Because if your tooling is closed source (and if it's
| paid it almost certainly is) then your ability to
| maintain a project is dependent on some corporation's
| willingness to continue to support the tooling etc.
| lolinder wrote:
| If the possibility of your tooling being discontinued is
| a real concern for you, paying for a Jetbrains license is
| your best bet. Their entire business is developer
| tooling: IntelliJ isn't going away until Jetbrains goes
| under, and they're not going under until people stop
| paying them. Microsoft, on the other hand, could decide
| to drop VSCode at any point as soon as the bean counters
| start questioning how it's benefiting the bottom line.
|
| And if Microsoft decides to kill VSCode, I seriously
| doubt anyone is going to keep maintaining it at the place
| where it is now. Even if someone decides to continue
| maintaining the base editor, Microsoft abandoning it will
| pretty quickly dry up the plugin ecosystem.
|
| "It's open source, so it will always be available to me"
| only really makes sense if your backup plan is to
| maintain it yourself. In the case of VSCode, you are
| relying on a whole ecosystem continuing to survive after
| the sponsor abandons it.
| mike_hearn wrote:
| It's worth noting that JetBrains has a long history of
| successfully competing against free IDEs, which were
| normally always more popular than IntelliJ. First there
| was NetBeans (bought and open sourced by Sun very early),
| then there was Eclipse (developed and open sourced by
| IBM), now there is VSCode. Heck there are probably others
| I don't know about. So, this is nothing new for them.
|
| Usually what happens is that after enough years have
| passed, the company funding the free IDE starts to wonder
| why exactly they're spending so much money to give away
| the results. The original passion-project founders have
| moved on, leaving behind maintenance devs who aren't
| motivated to defend it. Eventually it gets stripped to a
| handful of devs and donated to Apache. In the meantime
| IntelliJ continues to develop new features.
|
| The question VSCode users might wonder about is what's
| Microsoft's strategy here? They have plenty of money, but
| then again so did Sun/Oracle and IBM. Is there a long
| term commercial plan to let the VSCode team justify
| themselves.
| vladvasiliu wrote:
| > The question VSCode users might wonder about is what's
| Microsoft's strategy here? They have plenty of money, but
| then again so did Sun/Oracle and IBM. Is there a long
| term commercial plan to let the VSCode team justify
| themselves.
|
| Exactly, especially since VSCode is also an "open-core"
| product, just like JetBrain's products (the community
| versions are open-source).
|
| The difference is that the other parts are still free, as
| in beer. But this is precisely what makes the offer weird
| to me and makes me think there's a shady angle being
| played.
| mike_hearn wrote:
| Well, I doubt it's shady. Seems more likely they don't
| know what to charge for it and are incentivized to create
| user growth rather than revenue growth.
| mrighele wrote:
| As long as you can build the project with standard tools
| (e.g. npm for javascript, maven/gradle for Java etc.) you
| can survive your favorite IDE disappearing suddenly from
| one day to the other. It is more o less a requirement if
| you use CI/CD and a non issue anyway since any decent IDE
| can generate and synchronize a project using an external
| tools as a source of truth.
| frou_dh wrote:
| Not really in the case of Jetbrains vs VScode, because if
| the fateful day came, it would simply be an inconvenience
| to have to set up the alternative, not the end of the
| world.
| kaba0 wrote:
| Most of intellij is open-source.
| rubyist5eva wrote:
| Easy solution: make your employer pay for it. IntelliJ
| tools increase my productivity where saved time easily goes
| into days, it's easily justified from a cost perspective to
| an employer.
| whycombagator wrote:
| Sure but WebStorm is targeted solely/mainly at JavaScript
| development.
|
| What if my employer has N repos and several other languages,
| and JavaScript is just one of those.
|
| VSCode allows me to stay with the same interface across
| multiple different repos.
|
| Yes, if I'm doing Ruby or Java or C# I might choose a
| _different_ IDE for certain tasks in that language. But with
| a few plugins you can get a reasonably good generalist tool
| in VSCode, and even a pretty full featured one for certain
| languages
| frob wrote:
| I officially have a copy of pycharm and not webstorm. I use
| it to maintain both a python repo and a typescript repo.
| You can install language support for almost every official
| jetbrains language into basically any jetbrains editor. The
| only differences I have found are the default plug-ins and
| the app icon.
| whycombagator wrote:
| Interesting, I didn't know that but it makes sense to me
| stephenr wrote:
| Are you sure that works for all languages? I think it's
| just that the Javascript/Typescript plugins are made
| available to all IDEs.
|
| It certainly used to be (and I believe its still the
| case) that the "major" language plugins besides JS are
| only usable in their specific IDE or in IDEA Ultimate
| (which can run all of them) (i.e. PHP w/ PHPStorm, Ruby
| w/ RubyMine and Python w/ PyCharm)
| frob wrote:
| Nope, not sure, but I've yet to run into a wall using it
| daily for the past 2 years.
| [deleted]
| kaba0 wrote:
| Almost all of the jetbrain products are just intellij with
| a different set of plugins preinstalled (with perhaps the
| exception of clion which has a bit more native integration
| with debuggers), so you can quite likely just use intellij
| with a few plugins you want for everything.
| jimpudar wrote:
| Rider is also a bit different in how it handles Visual
| Studio solution / project files AFAIK. You can definitely
| rig up IntelliJ for e.g. Python development, but PyCharm
| is going to be a far better experience.
|
| I pay for the All Products Pack purely out of convenience
| - If I wanted to spend a ton of time tweaking my IDE, I'd
| go back to Emacs!
| lostmsu wrote:
| I am currently using Python with IntelliJ. What exactly
| am I missing from PyCharm?
| ethanbond wrote:
| It's not. At least as far as I can tell, the different
| Jetbrains IDEs are more like configurations or flavors of
| the same underlying thing. You can do most things in most
| of their IDEs.
|
| You should try paying for an IDE. VSCode is great but if
| you're an engineer getting paid anywhere close to a Silicon
| Valley wage (or you can expense devtools), you deserve
| better :)
| bogwog wrote:
| I was considering CLion, but decided against it because I
| frequently need to work with a bunch of different
| programming languages in a single project, not just C or
| C++, and not just the languages they happen to have an
| IDE for. It seems like Jetbrains does this so you're
| forced to buy multiple IDEs if you need support for a
| multiple languages. I don't even know how that's supposed
| to work. If I need to switch to editing Python, am I
| expected to open a second IDE? CLion supports plugins,
| but it doesn't seem like they offer a plugin that brings
| it on par with PyCharm (because if they did that, they
| couldn't sell you a second product)
|
| For highly specialized development teams I guess it makes
| sense, but for me it'd just be a waste of money.
|
| That's why I use Sublime Text, since it's the only (good)
| editor that's compatible with anything I need it to do.
| An alternative like Fleet is very interesting, but it's
| still too early to make a fair comparison (Also that
| Adobe-esque "toolbox" app isn't winning it any points)
| sitzkrieg wrote:
| most of their ides are plugins for language support
| basically. i use idea for java, c, golang and python. as
| well as the built in db ide stuff that is standalone as
| datagrip
| whycombagator wrote:
| > It's not.
|
| From the WebStorm page on JetBrains:
|
| > WebStorm The smartest JavaScript IDE WebStorm is an
| integrated development environment for JavaScript and
| related technologies. Like other JetBrains IDEs, it makes
| your development experience more enjoyable, automating
| routine work and helping you handle complex tasks with
| ease.
| vladvasiliu wrote:
| They come with a bunch of "pre-configurations". I used to
| have PyCharm, and now I've switched to IntelliJ. I can
| still do everything I could with PyCharm, which was
| itself a superset of WebStorm.
|
| Sure, some things are organized a bit differently, but
| basically, if you want to use multiple languages, just
| get IntelliJ, and you'll be set. It's cheaper than buying
| several other products, too.
|
| The only one that seems a bit different is CLion, in that
| it does things that IntelliJ doesn't, and vice-versa.
| NoahKAndrews wrote:
| I believe AppCode and Rider are more examples of
| JetBrains IDEs that do things that IntelliJ Ultimate
| can't.
| dmitriid wrote:
| Appcode, Rider, CLion and Goland are not available as
| language plugins to other IDEs.
| mdaniel wrote:
| Go most certainly is:
| https://plugins.jetbrains.com/plugin/9568-go but for the
| rest you are correct
| ethanbond wrote:
| Right, your comment implies that you can't use e.g.
| Webstorm for non-JS development. You can, and it'll be a
| pretty darn good experience. Webstorm just happens to be
| optimized for web stuff, and there are other IDEs that
| are optimized for other things.
|
| So the answer to, "what if my employer has a repo of
| language X and then a different repo of Y?" is: it's very
| likely not a problem, because the IDEs are not as
| specialized as you're clearly imagining them to be.
| iudqnolq wrote:
| > pretty darn good experience
|
| At least when I last did this about two years ago, it
| wasn't. There are a ton of edge cases. For example, only
| CLion supported stepping through Rust in a debugger.
| mrighele wrote:
| While the various product are more or less different
| flavors of the same program, if you want do work on a
| polyglot project the best choice is probably Idea since
| is the more flexible. The others have a better out of the
| box experience for a specific language but have a few
| limitations here and there.
|
| For example (and if I remember correctly), Webstorm
| doesn't support a project with different modules, so if
| you want to split it in two or more parts you have to
| either create it with Idea and "import" it in Webstorm,
| or manually edit the project file.
| rubyist5eva wrote:
| IntelliJ Ultimate lets you install all of the different
| language toolkits into one IDE via plugins.
| ta988 wrote:
| Except C++.
| [deleted]
| lima wrote:
| And the C++ IDE (Clion) supports most language plugins,
| but not Go...
|
| Other than that, IntelliJ is as universal as it gets.
| shp0ngle wrote:
| JetBrains/IDEA/IntelliJ/whatever is the name now has quite a
| good plugin support.
|
| I have looked into source codes of some and were horrified, but
| well, some people actually like Java and like that sort of
| stuff. Maybe I looked into wrong ones.
|
| VSCode plugins seems to be easier to write, but maybe that's
| because I know JavaScript already.
|
| What made me switch to VSCode is that it's generally snappier,
| IDEA has the "Indexing" mode that always takes forever
| keithnz wrote:
| webstorm is the way to go for react and other web type stuff...
| though I'm not sure if the intention of fleet is for it to be
| free forever or not.
| nicce wrote:
| Probably same than previous pricing model - you need license
| for commercial use.
| techdragon wrote:
| I'm pretty sure the verification is going to just be the normal
| jetbrains license verification service stuff. Since if anything
| I use has been shut down or offline for about that long I
| notice it phoning home to check my account license.
| bestest wrote:
| Yet another editor with no ability to switch to vertical tabs.
| Looks like I'm staying with the old-school JetBrains IDEs for the
| time being.
| artdigital wrote:
| Looks and feels nice
|
| Sadly no plugin support yet, and no VIM keybdings, that's a
| bummer.
|
| I loaded up a JS project, but no support for prettier, LSP or
| eslint formatting means the Format Code feature doesn't match
| with the rest of the projects style, so I can't use it.
|
| I'll keep it installed and revisit now and then (similar to
| Nova). Excited to see what they have planned
| hampereddustbin wrote:
| I've been browsing their site for a few minutes now and I'm still
| lost on what Fleet actually is.
|
| It says it's a new IDE, built from scratch, sure, but isn't
| IntelliJ already the gold standard for many languages? What
| problems does creating an entirely new IDE solve?
| hennell wrote:
| The linked product page seems to sum it up pretty well:
|
| >We built Fleet to be a fast and lightweight text editor for
| when you need to quickly browse and edit your code. It starts
| up in an instant so you can begin working immediately, and it
| can easily transform into an IDE, with the IntelliJ code-
| processing engine running separately from the editor itself.
|
| It's splitting the difference between text editor and IDE. It's
| their answer to people complaining "IntelliJ takes too long to
| start up" while keeping the IDE features that you lose just
| using a text editor.
| origin_path wrote:
| My gut sense from watching this for a while is that Fleet is a
| hedge by JetBrains against the risk of technical obsolescence
| for the IJ platform. VSCode introduced some key architectural
| changes and new UI which may or may not actually be better than
| their own products, but, if they _are_ better then JB would be
| left without a good way to respond.
|
| So. They start Fleet. Different to their existing products in
| several ways:
|
| 1. Doesn't use the Swing UI toolkit. Uses a custom home-grown
| thing on top of Skia. Still JVM based though.
|
| 2. Runs heavy computation in a backend with a network protocol
| between that and the UI.
|
| 3. Has a VSCode style UI.
|
| 4. Uses JSON files for configuration.
|
| Meanwhile they are _also_ attempting to respond to the threat
| with IJ itself. So they have been prototyping a new VSCode
| style UI in IJ, implemented with Swing. I 'm using it at the
| moment and I have to say it's actually quite nice. I was super
| skeptical at first. No, really skeptical. I liked the classic
| IJ UI, nice and dense, lots of features. But the new UI has won
| me over. It's been freshened up, is still just as efficient,
| looks nicer too. I think the success of that project (at least
| for users who want it) calls into question a big part of the
| Fleet value prop. Also they've been adding remote
| development/backend support into IJ itself, a lot of that is
| being built around their pair programming Code-with-me thing
| which is a fairly sophisticated data sync protocol under the
| hood.
|
| So JetBrains is setting themselves up here for some serious
| product management pain. The IJ team are rising to the
| challenge and it's not at all clear that VSCode will retain its
| competitive advantages beyond price within a year or two. Swing
| is not turning out to be the millstone around their neck they
| apparently feared, and the new UI feels modern and fast even
| though it's based on this old toolkit. Meanwhile the VSCode
| architecture in many ways _doesn 't make sense_ and is clearly
| the result of asking "how can we build an IDE within the
| constraints of a web browser" and not "how do we build a great
| IDE"? The client/server architecture is quite painful in all
| kinds of ways compared to threads+locks, devs tend to have good
| enough machines for code indexing and comprehension, and
| IntelliJ index builds can be outsourced to the cloud anyway. If
| IJ starts to really nail the Gateway stuff (see the recent
| Google Cloud Workstation announcement), what does it leave
| Fleet for? And how would they resolve these two competing
| products?
|
| If I were running JetBrains I'd be tempted to keep resources
| assigned to Fleet relatively limited and wait to see if it
| takes off organically, whilst simultaneously closing the gaps
| in IJ with VSCode. This does not just mean the features listed
| so far but also means getting serious about their "lightedit
| mode" and plugin API. JetBrains have a cultural problem in
| which they historically have actively resisted anything
| resembling code documentation, thinking that code should be
| self-documenting. Their plugin API docs are still poor and
| incomplete even after many years partly as a consequence, and
| although the JVM can run many languages, JB only really support
| Java and Kotlin for plugin dev. VSCode has taken off partly for
| the same reason NodeJS and Electron did - it lets web devs
| apply their skills in a new context. Language server took off
| because it lets obscure language communities use their own
| language to make IDE plugins instead of needing to use Java.
| Add Graal to IntelliJ, make JS a first-class plugin language
| and explore how to do non-network based integration with other
| languages. It would help them a lot.
| mnd999 wrote:
| I think they're trying to move to a browser / cloud model,
| presumably so that they can charge more for less.
| tomjen3 wrote:
| They just raised their prices, but their competitor is VS
| code, which is no cost so they can't run that route.
| cmrdporcupine wrote:
| I think it's more that there are now many large companies
| that now deploy VSCode as a shared, distributed editor. When
| I was at Google they were starting to replace their
| proprietary "Cider" web-based editor (for Google3) with a
| "CiderV" which was a modified hosted VSCode. A hosted VSCode
| instance makes a lot of sense for a company like Google where
| source-code-on-laptops is generally forbidden and developers
| are often issued Chromebooks etc. It solves & improves the
| distributed/remote development problem without requiring
| organizational changes. And it's much faster and smoother
| than RDP, etc.
|
| So those are potential customers that JetBrains was/is
| losing. My brain is almost 20-years-wired for JetBrains
| products. I would have been much happier to be able to use a
| remote JetBrains IDE vs a remote VSCode.
|
| There are also people for whom the existing JetBrains IDEs
| will always feel big slow and bloated. They have a lot of
| features packed in and come with a lot of lifestyle
| assumptions. I can see the value in JetBrains rolling out
| something that feels lighter-weight.
| keyle wrote:
| Yeah I'm getting strange adobe-like vibes from creative cloud
| announcements.
| Jack_rando_fang wrote:
| Exactly, when you want to download JetBrian fleet, you'll
| first have to download their "JetBrain Toolbox", which
| looks and functions VERY similar to the adobe CC menubar
| app.
| jpgvm wrote:
| To be fair they ship a large number of IDEs and Toolbox
| makes managing them a lot easier. I mostly only use IDEA
| Ultimate and CLion but I use the others occasionally too
| for certain tasks but don't necessarily have them
| installed all the time. Toolbox is installed on all my
| machines so I can simply install what I need when I need
| it, i.e Datagrip to generate some nice diagrams of some
| random DB I need to look at, etc.
| monlockandkey wrote:
| Well it makes it easier to manage rather than wrangling
| with multiple stand alone IDEs and versions
| user3939382 wrote:
| From what I've seen the difference is that Fleet is much
| faster.
| Denvercoder9 wrote:
| It seems to mostly be a competitor to VS Code, i.e. a
| relatively lightweight editor with support for distributed
| operation (where the local part is only a UI, and everything
| else can run remotely).
| no_circuit wrote:
| So if they are making progress to a distributed polyglot editor,
| then this mean that we'd be able to run multiple windows of Fleet
| working on different projects connecting to the same remote host?
| Is the connection mechanism basically the same as the Gateway
| product? If so, I wonder if this bug will ever gets fixed, or if
| it is a "works as intended" that you cannot run multiple projects
| on the same host? [1]
|
| However this issue doesn't really apply if you create a VM per
| workspace either manually or the service that is provided...
|
| [1] https://youtrack.jetbrains.com/issue/GTW-813
| bluelightning2k wrote:
| I have read all the comments on this thread.
|
| I'm fascinated by people's thoughts of VSC Vs JetBrains.
|
| It seems the consensus is that JB is better, except for web
| platform?
|
| Maybe this is because TypeScript is an excellent language server
| hbn wrote:
| The only thing that matters to me is JetBrains stuff seems to
| actually understand my code. i.e. it never fails to be able to
| jump me to references if I cmd+click a symbol, it's never
| messed up an automatic refactor (like a variable rename or
| something), etc. And it just works out of the box.
|
| I've never been able to configure VS Code to work in a way
| that's anywhere approaching intelligent. Maybe there's a way
| but I don't want to be messing with plugins and settings. And
| every time I've tried I just get frustrated and give up. I keep
| it installed for quick one-off text editing cause it launches
| faster than JB, but Fleet might just replace it for that
| usecase now.
| insane_dreamer wrote:
| Can't speak of other JB IDEs, by PyCharm is awesome
| mmastrac wrote:
| VSCode is still best for anything that isn't Android
| development, IMO. The C/C++, Rust, JS/TS integrations in VSCode
| have been amazing for me. IntelliJ is a battery killer, but
| VSCode is something I can run on a plane or in a cafe without a
| power cord.
| no_wizard wrote:
| I don't know if it even wins there, to be honest. I'd say
| they're on par if anything, with a slight edge to JetBrains, as
| they have better support built-in vs needing plugins.
|
| I'm a long time JetBrains user though, so I admit upfront I may
| have some bias here.
| wg0 wrote:
| I think Visual Studio code has great influence on it but after
| trying it, I think VS code can also learn few things about
| interface from it. Really neat.
|
| Probably JetBrains thought to leverage tons of in house Java code
| otherwise I think Rust + Skia or similar would have been a great
| option with almost no run time requirements. Rust gurus can say
| better but I have seen pretty impressive cross platform apps in
| Rust such as alacritty and warp.
| cmrdporcupine wrote:
| I honestly think it would be painful to write a large GUI app
| like this in Rust, and it's not something I would attempt.
|
| Backend and code analytics side, sure. But like you said they
| have lots of in-house code written in Java.
|
| It's interesting they stuck with Java for the UI, but it does
| seem to be snappy and I'm glad to see them walk away from
| Swing.
| mgkimsal wrote:
| Mostly OT, I know, but... anyone have any clue as to when
| 'spaces' might actually be a supported task server for their IDE
| products? They offer 'spaces' as a project tool - keep track of
| issues/bugs, planning, communication, etc. But you can't connect
| your IDE to it the same way it can connect to Jira, Github,
| Trello, Gitlab, Redline, Pivotal and others. It seemed like a
| short-term oversight at the start, but after... 2 years(?) ... it
| seems like a vote of no-confidence in their own product. I was
| excited to use spaces but... some of the most basic stuff I
| wanted to use wasn't there, and still isn't.
|
| https://intellij-support.jetbrains.com/hc/en-us/community/po...
| bluelightning2k wrote:
| For what this is for: I think the clue is in the name. It targets
| large groups of developers offloading the language server with
| thin clients.
|
| At least that's my understanding.
| pjmlp wrote:
| JetBrains trying to fight back Visual Studio Code taking over
| their market share.
| pknerd wrote:
| They could still fight back if they come up with the "community
| edition" similar to PyCharm
| yrgulation wrote:
| Basically microsoft is trying to crush ide makers. To achieve
| that its leveraging unpaid work. I dont know how someone can
| celebrate tools such as VSCode that despite being free are
| clearly products made by a corporation so large that it can
| crush legitimate businesses. Its not jetbrains trying to fight
| back vscode. Its jetbrains fighting back microsoft by providing
| not just good tools but also pay to those that want to build
| such good tools.
| pjmlp wrote:
| rob74 wrote:
| The main difference between VS Code and the various JetBrains
| IDEs is that for VS Code, you have to find and install the
| relevant plugins for your use case yourself, whereas the
| various JetBrains IDEs tend to work out of the box (while still
| supporting plugins). That's usually the difference between most
| free/open source solutions and commercial software: you can do
| mostly the same with the open source alternative, you just have
| to invest more effort. As far as I'm concerned, as long as my
| company is paying the JetBrains IDE license, why should I go to
| extra lengths to set up VS Code?
| zihotki wrote:
| Because you do it only once and can use it in any other
| company you work. It's a highly portable tool for free. What
| are the chances that your next employer will pay for a JB
| license?
| jmondi wrote:
| Honestly, it is basically about a 100% chance that the next
| employer will pay for JB. I couldn't imagine an employer
| refusing to pay $120/yr for a JB license for an employee
| they are already paying $180,000/yr.
| vbezhenar wrote:
| My employee does not pay for JB license, I'm doing that
| myself and my colleagues are either using community
| editions or vscode (or cracked ones). He does not pay me
| $180,000/yr either, LoL, more like $30,000/yr.
|
| Also I think that it's more like $600/yr for companies.
| dham wrote:
| I pay for my own RubyMine and Copilot license. At the end
| of the day I just want to get the job done as efficient
| as possible and be done with it so I can do other hobbies
| or code side projects. If my co-workers want to work
| harder, that's on them
| mgkimsal wrote:
| It's more than $120/year for an employee. https://www.jet
| brains.com/idea/buy/#commercial?billing=yearl...
|
| Reduced pricing in year 2 and 3, but up front it's
| $600/year.
|
| And... while someone's base pay may be a lot, these sorts
| of 'extras' might come from a different budget. And when
| there are a dozen services you're paying
| $20-$50/month/seat for, I know some managers start to
| scrutinize things a bit more. "Can't you just use the
| free version like other people do?"
| OrvalWintermute wrote:
| The pricing for All Products Pack was initially much
| less( $249.00 in 2016), and since then, it became one of
| the minor bills that you just pay because it is so
| little.
|
| I really like the licensing model they employ.
| mgkimsal wrote:
| It's now $289 from $249 for first year - for individual
| purchases. The corporate/business pricing - seat counts
| for a company vs tied to your individual name - is the
| (much?) higher price.
| imadj wrote:
| > Because you do it only once
|
| Not really though. Extensions are frequently deprecated or
| outdated, need to switch to new alternative, don't play
| nice together, etc.
|
| Anyway, there's no need to advocate for vscode, it's not an
| underdog. I imagine everyone here has already formed their
| opinion and tried JB IDEs, vscode, and other tools, and
| probably make use of all of them somewhere in their
| workflow.
| pjmlp wrote:
| Usually the images are done per project.
|
| VSCode Web as modern version of X Windows based IDEs is
| great, as yet another Electron app not really.
| Tijdreiziger wrote:
| In my experience it's the opposite. In VSCode, when you open,
| say, a .py file for the first time, you automatically get
| prompted to install the Python plugin. With the JetBrains
| suite you would have to manually install PyCharm.
| vips7L wrote:
| IntelliJ definitely prompts me every time I open a new file
| extension that the plugin isn't installed for.
| yoyohello13 wrote:
| I also find JetBrains completions to be smarter than VS
| Code's plugins (especially for python).
| pjmlp wrote:
| That is why one has the IT department configuring development
| images.
|
| I remeber there was a blog post from JetBrains where they
| complain about VSCode taking over InteliJ market, by
| indirectly asserting they don't understand why VSCode
| adoption was rising.
|
| Surprise surprise, a couple of months later Fleet was
| announced.
| mgkimsal wrote:
| I think "projector" was a beta/trial thing before fleet.
| And I could never get it to work. Or... I think I got it to
| work once, but it was decidedly a not-great experience.
| dmitriid wrote:
| I'd say they still don't understand why VSCode adoption is
| rising.
|
| There are two reasons:
|
| - People don't know better (yes, they really don't)
|
| - Language server allowed languages with abysmal tools to
| finally have some semblance of an IDE
|
| None of us know the future, but in my opinion Fleet is a
| mistake:
|
| - It tries to fight VSCode at VSCode's turf (an editor with
| primitive IDE functionality)
|
| - while trying to be a testbed for new UI for JetBrains
| IDEs
|
| - while trying to both serve the Language Server crowd
| _and_ keep JetBrain 's vastly superior language tools
|
| - while diluting JetBrains' offer of development tools
| TillE wrote:
| > Language server allowed languages with abysmal tools to
| finally have some semblance of an IDE
|
| Oh yeah, this is absolutely true. If VS Code is the de
| facto standard for your language, it's probably a decent
| experience. I use it for 6502 assembly.
|
| But I see people talking up VS Code over Visual Studio
| for C++ or C#, which I find completely baffling.
| danieldk wrote:
| _People don 't know better (yes, they really don't)_
|
| Or maybe VS Code is just really good? I was skeptical for
| a long time as well. I am a longtime Emacs and JetBrains
| IDE user (starting with IntelliJ in 2013). A while back I
| gave VS Code a try again. I primarily used CLion for Rust
| and PyCharm. And I found that the Rust/Python is at least
| as good as in CLion/PyCharm (with the exception of
| Cython). And thanks to VS Code's rich plugin ecosystem, I
| have a Magit implementation that is almost as good as
| Emacs Magit, the same with VSpaceCode to get
| Spacemacs/Doom-like spacebar-driven workflows.
|
| My JetBrains All Products Pack is up for renewal later
| this month, but I am seriously considering to let it
| lapse...
| xfer wrote:
| I also think vscode is really good enough for development
| and has a healthy plugin interface. I only miss my vim
| navigation when working in it, nothing beats vscode
| remote mode and it's free.
| dmitriid wrote:
| > Or maybe VS Code is just really good?
|
| It's okay. And its ecosystem is also anywhere from okay
| to abysmal.
|
| For languages (like Rust) that never really had any tools
| to begin with it seems like an amazing IDE/editor. In
| comparison to what IDEA offers for more established
| languages (anything from language support to _framework_
| support) it 's ... just okay :)
| yoyohello13 wrote:
| > And I found that the Rust/Python is at least as good as
| in CLion/PyCharm
|
| I think Rust support is comparable (probably because they
| both use rust-analyzer). I've found the opposite for
| Python. PyCharm is WAY smarter than VS Code.
| danieldk wrote:
| I don't think CLion uses rust-analyzer. IIRC it uses
| their own thing which was developed by the same person
| who later made rust-analyzer.
|
| Edit: more info:
|
| https://plugins.jetbrains.com/plugin/8182-rust/docs/rust-
| faq...
| alanwreath wrote:
| same, I've used both -- gave vscode a good year of trying
| to do python with it and Pycharm is doing more to
| understand my code. I'm not even using the integrated
| database junk either and it still does more.
|
| That said there is one part where I still have to turn to
| VSCode and that's when I want live breakpoints inside of
| a Tilt powered Kubernetes pod. I like the way that those
| settings are persisted so that other dev's can also use
| the debug functionality with literally one click. If
| pycharm just made remote debugging easy I'd never have to
| open VSCode for python development (but I'd probably
| still open it for something else like a quick editor of a
| file -- it's like my new vim). VSCode shines for
| supporting odd-ball languages and libraries sooner than
| JetBrains - and opens relatively quickly, sublime is much
| faster and I still use it for large files -- I just wish
| it was a little less involved to extend like VSCode.
| zo1 wrote:
| It's not that they don't know better. I'd say it's all
| down to marketing and sheer numbers in developer
| mindshare.
|
| This is from my experience: Just listen to most junior
| developers. They regurgitate and repeat marketing fluff
| spoken to them by twitter evangelists or twitch developer
| streams. I just spent the afternoon listening to it and
| it was sickening. You can't reason or get through to
| them. Compromise and nuance just feeds their pompous
| attitude.
|
| /rant
| chrisseaton wrote:
| > That is why one has the IT department configuring
| development images.
|
| Sounds like a nightmare! What do IT know about development
| to be picking tools?
| pjmlp wrote:
| A lot, in many Fortune 500 where software isn't the main
| product, you get a machine (VM based or real one)
| customized for your workflows, with the set of software
| that is white listed for software development in the
| company.
|
| Anything beyond the standard development image requires
| opening a request to IT and procurement, with the
| respective OK from management.
| das_keyboard wrote:
| Sounds like an even worse nightmare!
|
| Every developer has their own way of being productive
| which involves different tools & software. Forcing
| everyone to use one standardized environment sounds
| horrible.
| pjmlp wrote:
| Any developer that is willing to face the legal
| consequences of installing software that causes business
| damages, can go ahead and work around the system.
| geodel wrote:
| Sounds like there could be a middle path. Instead one
| fixed dev image, there can be base image + inventory of
| other software, where free ones anyone can install. Paid
| ones need approval and/or decision who will pay for it.
| But IT department is surely not one I imagine that can
| create decent inventory. So there needs be a catalog for
| such things which companies can purchase or subscribe.
| yrgulation wrote:
| Congratulations. You just identified one of the reasons
| so many dread working at such organisations and why
| software engineering is becoming assembly line work.
| Indeed what does an it person know about tooling and why
| do engineers need to ask for "permission" from managers
| by opening a "ticket"? Neither an it person nor a manger
| have a clue about what an engineer needs.
| P5fRxh5kUvp2th wrote:
| That's the part that cracks me up.
|
| Developers require low-wage workers to prevent developers
| from doing the wrong thing. It's stupid.
|
| I'm ok with you revoking Bob's admin privileges if Bob
| keeps installing malware, but don't revoke my ability to
| install Python because of it.
| mmcgaha wrote:
| And when your company starts doing that to developers it
| is time to dust off your resume and start looking for
| something better. I get it that these companies have real
| issues and their managers are multiple times smarter than
| me but I refuse to be put into a position where I cannot
| use the tools that I need to be productive.
| pjmlp wrote:
| These companies take liability in software seriously, and
| if someone installs software that damages their employer
| business, or their employer customers, they better dust
| off their CV indeed, including the reason why they got
| fired.
| isbvhodnvemrwvn wrote:
| They take liability seriously? How many outright frauds
| and data leaks are swept under the table?
|
| If you like to work in extremely low trust companies, you
| do you. If somebody trusts me to write production code
| but not to pick text editors, they are morons with red
| tape wrapped around their eyes.
| mgkimsal wrote:
| I get it - have been there. Work with project/team X,
| and... with tools I know, I'm X productive.
|
| "We need to switch to tool Y".
|
| There's usually a host of reasons I may not want to move
| to tool Y, but in most cases, it's because I don't want
| to have to learn _yet another tool_ just to do what I was
| doing. Why? Cognitive overload... but also for some
| period of time I 'm going to be much less productive. I
| don't want to be judged on that. _you_ are saying I have
| to use Y... I 'm going to be slower. Every estimate will
| be 20% more than what it was for the next Z months. I've
| got 10 years of muscle memory to undo. Is it worth it?
|
| In most cases, really not. BUT... if someone mandated
| that, _AND_ also acknowledged up front that the delivery
| expectations will be reduced for some longer period of
| time... perhaps it 's OK.
|
| On the JB topic, IntelliJ was one 'heavy' tool I resisted
| for a long time. "I'm faster in these other tools -
| notepad++, vim, netbeans, whatever". I _was_ faster, for
| many tasks. Adopting something new was _slow_. I 'm
| generally glad I did it, but I did it mostly on my own
| projects, and freelancing. Had I been under pressure to
| deliver at a high pace while having to undo years of
| habits/tools/processes that got me where I was at that
| time, it would have been far more difficult to deal with.
| yrgulation wrote:
| Surprise surprise microsoft is using useful idiots to
| promote its brand via a free product and in the process
| threatening smaller business. IntelliJ should sue microsoft
| in european courts for monopoly. Do you understand the
| issue here? Or do you imagine all developers should build
| crud apps while all other tooling should be free?
| pjmlp wrote:
| What monopoly, time to learn law?
| yrgulation wrote:
| The same kind of monopoly microsoft was accused it was
| when providing free media player and free browser apps.
| This is just the same type of market abuse except its
| leveraging people's free work and not pre installing it
| inside its own os'. Perhaps you should learn law indeed.
| amitport wrote:
| Giving something for free is not monopoly (without
| preinstallation). You can say other things about this
| strategy, but you're misusing the word.
| yrgulation wrote:
| The price of acquisition is 0$ but costs telemetry and
| branding. So microsoft is charging you for this just not
| money. Even if that wouldnt be the case microsoft did
| distribute ie and the media player for free, so there is
| precedence. It may not be distributed part of the os but
| it is a product set at a price that severely undercuts
| competition. Worse even the product is developed using
| free labour yet microsoft benefits in brand recognition.
| Google does it and in the process it killed plenty of
| startups or small businesses and got grief for it yet
| microsoft can get away with it.
| alejoar wrote:
| VSCode is open source and you are free to alter it (MIT
| license), removing those parts that you say Microsoft is
| using to "charge" you. Or just use vscodium.
| yrgulation wrote:
| I'll just use intellij products to support engineering
| companies.
| cmrdporcupine wrote:
| So I tried it out. I own a CLion license and have been using
| Jetbrains products since IntelliJ 3.0. It seems ok, but very very
| VSCode-ish.
|
| I tried it with our Rust codebase and it seemed to be fairly
| competitive with CLion in terms of analysis. I didn't try any
| refactorings but I did notice that it doesn't have many of them.
| It was fairly snappy, felt more responsive than CLion. I was
| disappointed that even after I switched it to "IntelliJ"
| keybindings many keybindings still were more like VSCode than
| IntelliJ. I.e. Ctrl-N was still "open new tab" and not "jump to
| symbol" (have to do ctrl-shift-alt-N for that.)
|
| Overall, I guess I'm curious where they go with it. I won't be
| trading in my CLion license, though. I am probably not the target
| audience; I suspect they're looking to capture customers who work
| in large corporations where VSCode is getting penetration as a
| hosted/fleet solution. With the default keybindings I suspect
| those coming from VSCode will find Fleet very comfortable.
|
| For myself, I continue to give Jetbrains money for their IDEs,
| because as a company they do great work and give good value. I'm
| happy to modestly help pay the salaries of their employees. I
| wish them luck.
| mehphp wrote:
| Very sluggish and no vim support. It looks promising but I'm
| going to let it bake for a while.
| TheChaplain wrote:
| I'm sure this is great for enterprises but for me, a single
| developer on a local machine, what benefits does Fleet bring?
| suchar wrote:
| Probably not that much if you are not looking forward to a
| remote development:
|
| - new UI (they couldn't change it in any meaningful way without
| breaking workflows, but with a new IDE there are no existing
| workflows)
|
| - single IDE for all languages (it was possible for most of
| them with IJ ultimate, but for e.g. Python the experience was
| slightly worse than with PyCharm)
| austinpena wrote:
| Yeah, I'm curious of this too, especially compared to just
| running standard Intellij IDEs
| barefeg wrote:
| Sorry for the unfamiliarity with JetBrains products. Is this
| architecture similar to VSCode's? So the ide has a backend that
| can run remotely and a frontend client that can run in multiple
| environments including web? I remember a long time ago pyCharm
| had the ability to run the interpreter remotely. What are the
| benefits of pulling more stuff in the backend? Is it in order to
| be able to run the editor in different environments?
| dexwiz wrote:
| I actually have a use case for this. I work on a big JVM app
| that needs some serious hardware to run locally. If I want to
| develop remotely I have to use a Remote Desktop to access a
| workstation, which is hell.
|
| You can remote debug, but you can't really remote develop.
| Intellij is index heavy so you need Intellij and the code to be
| collocated on a machine, otherwise IntelliJ will overload the
| network. You can get around this by having two copies of the
| code and manually transfer any differences to machine running
| the JVM, but it's really brittle. Separating the front and back
| ends will allow me to have JVM, code, and compiler all on one
| machine, but the editor on another.
| capableweb wrote:
| > Fleet is our new distributed polyglot editor and IDE.
|
| Ok, polygot makes sense, it supports more than just one language.
| But what does distributed mean in this context? You run the
| editor across many machines? What does that mean? Coming from a
| backend perspective, it quite doesn't make much sense. Thinking
| about it from a client-side perspective, I'm guessing they mean
| the architecture is decoupled, meaning basically
| plugins/extensions but with a fancier word?
|
| Judging by the "Features Matrix" (https://docs.google.com/spreads
| heets/u/1/d/e/2PACX-1vTWt9RlJ...), sad to see not a single non
| C-like language is being considered.
| kuschku wrote:
| Distributed means you can run the editor UI and the actual
| backend on separate machines. One long-term goal of such
| deployments is developers just having a thin chromebook with
| the UI and the actual code being on a corporate server, like
| terminals and mainframes in ye olde days.
|
| I believe this is a reaction to VS Code, which has supported
| this functionality for a while already.
| kevincox wrote:
| Another big use case is running the "backend" inside a VM or
| container that has a well-defined set of dependencies
| installed while the host OS can be updated and managed by the
| user.
| woojoo666 wrote:
| But conventionally the word "distributed" is for apps running
| on multiple servers. Your definition makes every web app
| "distributed". And I feel like most of HN would disagree with
| calling Spotify Web a "distributed app"
| Denvercoder9 wrote:
| > But what does distributed mean in this context? You run the
| editor across many machines? What does that mean?
|
| It means that the editor is split into two (or more) parts: a
| UI that runs locally on the machine you're sitting in front of,
| and a server that can run anywhere that does I/O, analysis,
| debugging, etc. It's useful e.g. if you're running Windows but
| target Linux (run the server-side in WSL), for dev containers
| (run the server-side inside a container with the toolchain for
| your project), or to develop in/for the cloud.
| rockwotj wrote:
| > sad to see not a single non C-like language is being
| considered
|
| They are reusing the IntelliJ backend, which I don't believe
| has out of the box support for a language not on that list
| ellisv wrote:
| > Fleet's architecture is designed to support a range of
| configurations and workflows. You can simply run Fleet just on
| your machine, or move some of the processes elsewhere - for
| example by locating the code processing in the cloud.
|
| Presumably this is just easy to configure integrations so you
| can do things like run a build job on your CI/CD platform,
| push/pull artifacts, deploy applications, etc.
| OJFord wrote:
| > But what does distributed mean in this context? You run the
| editor across many machines? What does that mean?
|
| Yes:
|
| > distributed architecture. For more details check out the
| Fleet product page [link].
|
| > [Fleet product page:] Distributed for flexibility
|
| > Fleet's architecture is designed to support a range of
| configurations and workflows. You can simply run Fleet just on
| your machine, or move some of the processes elsewhere - for
| example by locating the code processing in the cloud.
| capableweb wrote:
| Ok, so I could kind of understand the use case of running the
| UI on one machine and the backend for the UI on another
| machine. Lots of complexity for small amount of gain, but
| somewhat makes sense.
|
| But then they say "distributed" so that would mean many
| backend machines, not just one. What on earth is the backend
| doing where one instance is not enough for one client? How
| could one client UI possibly need more than one backing
| instance? Sounds horribly inefficient.
| [deleted]
| nwatson wrote:
| Microservices ... laptop user sets breakpoints on a
| Django/Python API/web server, a Java financial transaction
| processor, and a golang outgoing webhook queue server.
| chrisseaton wrote:
| > Lots of complexity for small amount of gain
|
| Being able to develop on a huge beefy cloud instance, with
| managed background services, possibly with different
| architectures, from your laptop is _huge_.
|
| > But then they say "distributed" so that would mean many
| backend machines, not just one.
|
| 'Distributed' doesn't mean 'many' - it's distributed over
| two.
| capableweb wrote:
| A "huge beefy cloud instance" comes with a premium price,
| especially if you're planning to use it for a year or
| two, while also coming with its own set of problems: No
| internet connection? No luck! Downloading dependencies
| for your backend? Start paying per GB downloaded, and so
| on.
|
| > 'Distributed' doesn't mean 'many' - it's distributed
| over two.
|
| A client<>server architecture is generally not considered
| "distributed" unless there is multiple servers involved,
| at least how the terminology have been understood until
| today, if it changed suddenly.
|
| Usually when it comes to these kind of architectures,
| you'd refer to them as "thin clients", and the
| architecture has been around since mainframes if not
| longer.
| MadcapJake wrote:
| Distributed _program_ vs distributed _computing_. One is
| anything from MMORPGs to P2P to thin clients. The other
| is for heavy computations distributed across a network of
| task processing nodes.
| chrisseaton wrote:
| > A "huge beefy cloud instance" comes with a premium
| price
|
| Ok? What's that got to do if it's useful or not.
|
| > Usually when it comes to these kind of architectures,
| you'd refer to them as "thin clients"
|
| Ah well the difference here is the client does a lot more
| work - it's running the editor, the editing and the
| editor state, it's not just transmitting input and
| receiving drawing commands.
| likis wrote:
| Maybe the possibility of compiling and running on different
| platforms?
| mi_lk wrote:
| apparently no Scala as well??!
| jasode wrote:
| _> But what does distributed mean in this context?_
|
| The older Jetbrains IDEA IDE is a monolithic local application.
| E.g. it does _both UI navigation _and_ batch processing work
| like source code indexing_.
|
| Fleet is re-architected to be "distributed" aka "client/server"
| style into a "lightweight" frontend + "heavyweight" backend.
| E.g., the frontend does UI navigation and basic syntax parsing
| but the backend (which can be on remote servers) can do full
| codebase indexing. As a bonus, the code index database can be
| shared by many frontends.
|
| Code indexing for huge repos (e.g. 1 million LOC) takes a very
| long time and is one of the complaints of classical IDEA IDE
| performance being sluggish.
|
| Take the "code indexing" example and extend it to other "heavy"
| backend batch processes like linting, testing, etc. The backend
| can also be in the cloud.
|
| As a footnote, Fleet is also a competitive response to MS
| VSCode by having collaborative features. But my comment mostly
| answers the "distributed" aspect.
|
| Related articles that also have the client+server diagram:
|
| https://www.infoworld.com/article/3664112/jetbrains-fleet-th...
|
| https://blog.jetbrains.com/fleet/2022/01/fleet-below-deck-pa...
|
| _> frontend + backend is not distributed, but it definitely is
| client/server architecture_
|
| EDIT to clarify: the _" distributed"_ is describing
| "distributed application" of client+server ... like 1st
| sentence of wikipedia :
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Client%E2%80%93server_model
| tester756 wrote:
| so, modular? :)
|
| crud app with frontend + backend is not distributed, but it
| definitely is client/server architecture
|
| but that's just nitpick, iirc "distributed" means something
| different in their context
| bombardier6789 wrote:
| What would be your definition of distributed?
| capableweb wrote:
| Going beyond the traditional client<>server/thin client
| architecture with at least 2 servers is what I'd consider
| distributed.
| jasode wrote:
| _> with at least 2 servers is what I 'd consider
| distributed._
|
| There are several meanings of "distributed" :
|
| (1) multiple servers coordination like Google's MapReduce
| BigTable, Cassandra, Hadoop, etc
|
| (2) describing a split client+server architecture that
| may have just 1 server. This usage of "distributed
| architecture" in discussions was more common in
| 1980s/1990s with the rise of client/server computing.
| Visual Basic CRUD, PowerBuilder, SAP R/3, etc.
|
| In the Jetbrains article, if you do Ctrl+F search for all
| occurrences of _" distributed"_, it is clear they're
| talking about meaning (2):
| https://blog.jetbrains.com/fleet/2022/06/fleet-below-
| deck-pa...
|
| To answer your previous question: _> I'm guessing they
| mean the architecture is decoupled, [...] but with a
| fancier word?_
|
| It's not a fancier word. Jetbrains is _re-using_ an
| existing description of _" distributed==client/server"_
| that's been around for decades. It's just that _"
| distributed computing"_ has been recently dominated by
| the examples of meaning (1) above.
| tomjen3 wrote:
| VS code can connect to a machine running SSH and you edit
| locally, but all the code, extensions, etc runs on the other
| machine. It is not just a matter of copying the files back and
| forth either, and the experience is super smooth. If you open a
| port on the remote computer with your program, it will even be
| forwarded.
|
| I assume this is their answer to that.
| [deleted]
| uticus wrote:
| No Ruby support out of the box - yet there is support for Java (a
| la IntelliJ), C# (a la Rider), Go (a la GoLand), C (a la CLion),
| Python (a la PyCharm), Web-anything (a la WebStorm & PhpStorm)...
|
| RubyMine is a great IDE, worth paying for, but this looks like
| writing on the wall.
| Brystephor wrote:
| How is this different from intelliJ Ultimate?
| hbn wrote:
| Seems pretty slick from what I've played with so far. I don't
| need anything fancy, I kinda just want something to replace my
| usecase for VS Code which is a quick-to-open text editor that I
| don't need a PhD in in order to use effectively. For getting work
| done I'll continue to use IntelliJ, but sometimes I just need to
| edit a file or open a directory of files and don't want to open a
| big IDE for that and have it start indexing things.
|
| Slightly disappointed they've changed the default key mappings? I
| went to open a file with cmd+shift+o but that immediately
| launched a symbol search and I have to hit cmd-p to open a file
| search.
|
| Seems like the git comparison UI is worse. Aside from it stacking
| up a giant list of diffs, it seems very simple, like Github's PR
| diff UI. Not doing the nice thing where it shows which lines map
| to which lines in the changes. I'll chock that up to being a
| preview.
| mi_lk wrote:
| I like the fleet light/dark theme, can JetBrains put it as a
| plugin so I can use it in other JB products?
| hbn wrote:
| I want Darcula back. It's the only dark theme I've ever liked
| in any piece of software.
|
| It's grey instead of black so it doesn't hurt my eyes, and the
| color contrasts for symbol highlighting and whatnot are very
| well tuned.
| junaid1460 wrote:
| 3 gigs for a web app :crycat:
| chewmieser wrote:
| Felt really great! Snappy and familiar to modern equivalents
| (e.g. VS Code). That said, memory consumption is pretty high at
| around 3.35 GB for the backend, 1.83 GB for the frontend on a
| decently sized project. Compared to Nova which has that and a lot
| more loaded at 1.26 GB.
|
| PHP smart mode definitely needs work. A lot of errors that
| wouldn't be errors if we could specify which version of PHP the
| project was running as. Using any PHP7+ feature ends up in an
| error.
|
| Some silly issues with namespacing as well - like using "string"
| type-hinting on class functions in a namespaced class shows an
| error.
|
| And some highlighting oddities with some of our files, but all-
| in-all I really liked Fleet. Will keep an eye on it!
| kburman wrote:
| Jetbrains seems so confident about future being full of
| collaboration.
|
| For me it would be very hard to work if someone else is also
| updating the codebase at the same time.
|
| Anyone working like can you share your experience
| tomjen3 wrote:
| It only makes sense for distributed pair programming. But
| that's not a bad idea either.
| leadingthenet wrote:
| Same here, but maybe it's for education / quickly talking
| through an issue or solution? Otherwise, I really fail to see
| the value add vs git.
| CSDude wrote:
| We prefer sync code reviews sometimes and it's easier.
| stunt wrote:
| It looks very practical and I like the choices they made. But, I
| can't use it as a daily driver because it doesn't have vim mode.
| savingGrace wrote:
| I have used JetBrains products for a decade (IntelliJ, Android
| Studio, WebStorm, PHPStorm). Does this mean that those products
| are having resources shifted away from them to work on Fleet? I
| am not a developer who enjoys the 'plugin' mindset and tend to
| install very few. I prefer Visual Studios over VSCode as well...
| lfmunoz4 wrote:
| kaladin_1 wrote:
| Nice one Jetbrains!!!
|
| Let's see if this competition eventually leads to one of them
| launching something as snappy as vim but with IDE
| functionalities. VS Code is close but noticeably slows down as
| soon as you install many plugins.
|
| With Fleet, newbies now have an alternative editor cum IDE.
|
| Many people that were into programming in my University couldn't
| afford the kind of machine that would load IntelliJ or Jetbrains
| IDEs in short time. Rooting for Jetbrains to put up a good fight
| and recover some market share :)
| rz123 wrote:
| EugeneOZ wrote:
| Requires some mega-ugly "toolbox" app as an installer for all the
| JetBrains apps - no, thanks, Adobe taught me to burn such things
| when I see them.
| [deleted]
| cheptsov wrote:
| Already saw it in Toolbox App and installed ;-) Gonna give it a
| try.
|
| Congrats on the launch, and kudos to the Fleet team!
| gnerkus wrote:
| I wish they'd provide more support for C++; CLion is incredibly
| slow on older Macbooks.
| tommica wrote:
| Tried the private beta for a while, and although it was rough on
| the edges, I really enjoyed the ability to "enable" the smart
| mode - if I needed to do a quick edit in a file, without having
| to load all the IDE magic, I had an editor that was quick to
| start, and if I needed all the bits and bobs, I just clicked a
| button and off we went.
|
| What kept me using their main products instead of fleet was the
| plugins that are available, that makes working just more
| enjoyable.
| PeterStuer wrote:
| Still confused.
|
| Is Fleet to IntelliJ as VS.Code is to Visual Studio?
| ZeroCool2u wrote:
| Basically yes.
| amcsi wrote:
| Better. It's like a VS.Code that you can turn into a Visual
| Studio (if needed) within the same application.
| noob_07 wrote:
| Anybody having memory issues with it? I opened a large react
| project and it utilized nearly 2GB of RAM. I am on a linux
| machine.
| stusmall wrote:
| That doesn't seem that extreme if it is a large project.
| JetBrains products are more than just a text editor and tend to
| be pretty aggressive with RAM usage.
| chewmieser wrote:
| I'm at 3.28GB backend + 1.83GB frontend for a medium-large PHP
| project as well. Pretty huge memory requirements but I've got
| plenty so not a big deal, just noticeable compared to
| alternatives.
| nikolay wrote:
| I was hopeful, but after playing with it, I'm not impressed!
| deagle50 wrote:
| When will IdeaVim (or similar) work? Can't use it until then.
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