[HN Gopher] Apple introduces Ask Apple for developers
___________________________________________________________________
Apple introduces Ask Apple for developers
Author : todsacerdoti
Score : 190 points
Date : 2022-10-11 17:04 UTC (5 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.apple.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.apple.com)
| jshzglr wrote:
| You all sound so angry. Relax and move on. From this article and
| from apple apparently.
| hackish wrote:
| At the time of my reply, there are 11 comments with only one
| being overtly negative (towards bug report resourcing). The
| post is less than 25 minutes old. Surely we can afford HN more
| time than that to move on?
| duxup wrote:
| I suspect the comment you're replying to is also thinking of
| other posts, but if so, yes that makes it confusing too.
| You're response is no less accurate.
|
| Personally I do tire from the <insert pet gripe about X
| company in the announcement> and general pessimism around HN.
| I'd much rather hear about what folks think of the specific
| thing and less about the ongoing conversation about topics
| surrounding the company. So I kinda get that sentiment.
| udev wrote:
| If everyone around, except you, sounds angry about something,
| it might just mean something is wrong.
|
| Whether this goes against your comfy-in-my-relaxed-state
| attitude, or you are not ready to face the negative
| information, does not mean everything is fine.
| hutzlibu wrote:
| " does not mean everything is fine. "
|
| He or she never said that. He said that if you move away from
| apple, all your problems with apple are gone and you can
| relax.
|
| So you can basically translate it to: "if you all are so
| angry with Apple, then why do you keep developing for Apple?"
|
| (to which the answer of course is: money)
| sixstringtheory wrote:
| The devil you know is better than the one you don't.
|
| Also, those with issues tend to be the loudest. You don't
| hear from all the people who are basically fine with the
| status quo, or even from the complainers about all the
| things they are satisfied with on the platform.
|
| Personally, I love using and developing for the Apple
| ecosystem, but I too have my gripes. I would rather my
| perceived issues be fixed, therefore making things even
| better, than starting from square one on an inferior
| platform. Which leads to another saying:
|
| Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.
| nixpulvis wrote:
| I've been trying to move on from Apple for over half a decade
| now. There's just not good alternatives in my opinion. :(
|
| Plus a lot of my stuff is locked up with them and I don't have
| the time to migrate all of it right now. Specifically, music is
| a big issue for me.
| prange wrote:
| This seems to be a common position, but a weird one. It seems
| like you are saying Apple is the best, but you are mad at
| them, even though nobody can do better.
| [deleted]
| nixpulvis wrote:
| Exactly!
|
| I literally quit my job at Apple shortly after having this
| realization myself. It's actually a somewhat comical short
| tale.
|
| So there I am sitting at my desk right outside the iPhone
| hardware team's main conference room. I don't recall who on
| my subteam I was talking with when an exec meeting was just
| ending from that room, but I distinctly remember exclaiming
| "We're not good, but we're the best!" before looking up to
| see people like my boss's boss's boss and the likes. Yikes.
| But also, fuck them all, they were probably having a
| meeting to discuss how they could calm down people about
| the 3.5mm jack they removed.
| everyone wrote:
| In my experience, talking to a mac user about macs is like
| talking to a smoker about smoking. U can explain with facts
| how it's expensive and harmful, but u will never convince
| them to stop.
| prange wrote:
| The grandparent comment said there is nothing better.
| Stop and use what?
| nixpulvis wrote:
| Haha, this thread is ripe for wordplay.
|
| "Nothing is better than smoking" ;)
| everyone wrote:
| @prange.. Windows LTSC or _any_ kind of Linux u want,
| setup exactly how u want, on exactly the hardware u want.
| You know, like some kind of "personal computer" almost,
| which you the user have control over and can do what u
| want with.
| prange wrote:
| Obviously the commenter I was replying to doesn't think
| Linux or Windows are good enough, no matter how you 'set
| them up'.
| nixpulvis wrote:
| I've been using Linux on my Thinkpads for a while now. As
| well as many other machines. It does have some issues,
| primarily when it comes time to integrate with my
| smartphone, which is the primary issue here.
|
| And before someone chimes in, yes I have used both the
| PinePhone and Purism platforms. They are promising, but
| not a suitable replacement yet.
| dmitriid wrote:
| How is it weird? They can be _both_ better _and_ bad. It
| just means that everyone else is worse.
| prange wrote:
| It's not weird to think it's the best and that the best
| is bad. What is weird is to be angry about it.
| nixpulvis wrote:
| Why? My phone is as close to a physical extension of my
| mind as anything I can imagine ever existing short of
| implants I'm unsure I would care for.
|
| I guess I can only hope we fix these problems before
| everyone starts putting "smart" contacts in their eyes.
| jedberg wrote:
| How many people will start their conversation with "can you tell
| me why my app was rejected and how to fix it?"?
| gtvwill wrote:
| Gonna ask the Devs if they thought about domestic violence and
| the ethical implications of their work whilst they coded a bunch
| of features and tech that enables it. Tracking through keytags,
| deleting messages, payment control. I'm gonna guess that one goes
| unanswered...
| guyzero wrote:
| I'm disappointed this isn't a new voice agent from Apple.
| layer8 wrote:
| Let's hope it'll be more useful than Siri.
| h4waii wrote:
| Maybe my app is too simple, but I have had no issues with
| developing for, submitting, and shipping downloads (with
| infrequent updates) in the Apple app store.
|
| Honestly, the major annoyance is paying $120/year while Google
| only charges a one-time $25, but it is what it is.
| sirsinsalot wrote:
| Why was my app taken off the store, and my developer account
| banned without explanation?
|
| No? No answer?
|
| Funny that.
| criddell wrote:
| They aren't going to answer you here.
| fareesh wrote:
| My top complaints with Apple are
|
| - The documentation could be improved a lot - with examples
| ideally.
|
| - The App Review process seems to flag a number of the same
| issues which are subsequently resolved after sharing a video that
| there is already compliance. This could be improved
|
| - Showing specific error messages - I think this is somewhat
| Universal but Apple gets it wrong far more often. For example if
| you don't accept an Agreement somewhere in App Store Connect, you
| will just see a random error when you try to test In-App Purchase
| and some developers may think it's a problem with their code when
| in fact it's something else entirely. This wastes time and can be
| incredibly frustrating and demoralizing. Also the In-App
| _Purchase sandbox user flow is needlessly complicated.
| pjmlp wrote:
| What about bringing back the "deprecated" documentation that is
| still quite relevant and only old timers like ourselves can
| find it, because we have the bookmarks and also know what to
| search for?
| diego_moita wrote:
| And also Xcode. And breaking existing functionality.
|
| But, in the end, it boils down to the fact that "developers,
| developers, developers" just isn't an Apple mantra (viz: Jobs'
| initial reluctance to open an appstore).
|
| They know that, as long as they corral a lot of paying
| customers the developers will keep coming, no matter how many
| problems they throw in the way.
| diskzero wrote:
| I may be an anomaly, but most of the Ask Apple topics wouldn't be
| terribly useful for me. In general, I haven't had much difficulty
| figuring out how to use the various frameworks and features as
| they are released. I don't want to discount the experience of
| anyone who has had difficulty however. Getting direct technical
| help may be the key to their sucess.
|
| I am a former Apple employee but this has given me no special
| privileges or advantages at all. Perhaps it has given me some
| particular skill at diving into header files to figure out a
| solution to a technical problem.
|
| The issue(s) I need the most help with revolve around generating
| revenues that don't involve advertising, subscriptions, dark
| patterns or racing to the bottom on pricing. The AppStore model
| makes it very difficult to use some of the techniques that worked
| in the old days of shrink wrap and direct online distribution;
| trial periods, version upgrades and other concepts that don't fit
| into the AppStore buy it once and get upgraded for life.
|
| It was my decision to make an application that incurred expensive
| development costs and it was also a risk to depend upon Apple and
| the AppStore. They sure do make it hard for small developers to
| try and make a living selling "professional" level applications.
| Kye wrote:
| The Halide people wrote a post on how they handled this for
| releasing Halide II while not leaving long-term supporters
| behind.
|
| https://lux.camera/pro-camera-action-introducing-halide-mark...
|
| Basically: it's a subscription, but you get to keep the last
| features you got on it if you cancel. Owners of the original
| Halide got a year of free updates.
|
| HN thread on it: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24860043
| cglong wrote:
| > The issue(s) I need the most help with revolve around
| generating revenues that don't involve advertising,
| subscriptions, dark patterns or racing to the bottom on
| pricing. The AppStore model makes it very difficult to use some
| of the techniques that worked in the old days of shrink wrap
| and direct online distribution; trial periods, version upgrades
| and other concepts that don't fit into the AppStore buy it once
| and get upgraded for life.
|
| The part that bugs me is that Apple _could_ fix these issues
| but is choosing not to. Rather than adding upgrade pricing
| (something developers have been asking for since 2009), they
| added and have been pushing for subscriptions :(
| chipotle_coyote wrote:
| I'm not as down on subscriptions for apps as other people
| seem to be. If--and I recognize these are big "ifs" here--the
| annual price is reasonable (which I'd roughly define as "no
| more than what you'd be paying for upgrades if they were
| amortized over a yearly basis"), and developers use this
| stable recurring revenue to make frequent updates to their
| apps on a rolling release rather than holding big features
| back for major updates every one to three years, I'm happy
| enough to pay for them this way.
|
| Granted, I'd prefer to see the ability to handle
| subscriptions the way Panic does for their editor Nova, in
| which you get all the updates as long as your subscription is
| valid, and if you stop paying you stay on whatever the most
| recent version was when your subscription expires. (This is
| distinct from Jetbrains' take on this, where when you stop
| paying you stay on the version that was current when your
| subscription _started_.) This is something I don't think the
| App Store supports, either.
| [deleted]
| TheTon wrote:
| > I am a former Apple employee but this has given me no special
| privileges or advantages at all. Perhaps it has given me some
| particular skill at diving into header files to figure out a
| solution to a technical problem.
|
| It's definitely the latter. Being a former employee or a
| longtime developer on Apple platforms gives you a ton of
| background knowledge. Apple's frameworks generally have a lot
| of consistency with each other (probably because of how they do
| review of new APIs internally), so once you know several
| frameworks you can easily pick up another. People without that
| background struggle, even if they're experienced developers on
| other platforms.
|
| I experience this myself in the other direction when I try to
| write stuff for Windows. I'm also ex-Apple so I know the tools
| and I know where to look to find out what I don't yet know on
| the Mac, and worst case scenario I can dig in and reverse
| engineer Apple stuff that does what I want to do pretty easily.
| On Windows, I'm just a lot slower and I have to do a lot more
| hunting around to find out what I need. Generally when I do a
| new feature that needs platform specific code on both Windows
| and Mac, I do the Mac side first so I can validate the idea and
| get something working, and then I do the Windows side second so
| I'm not having to do exploratory work there, it's just a matter
| of trying to find the equivalent functionality and hooking it
| up. I hear from a lot of Windows folks that they struggle to
| code on the Mac and they blame Apple for this, but really it's
| more just the fact that they have a ton more background
| knowledge on Windows and they discount the value of this.
| diskzero wrote:
| Thanks for that observation. You are totally right. Having
| learned to dive into framework headers and map idioms from
| one to another is totally something I learned at Apple,
| especially in the early days of creating a lot of the
| frameworks that form the foundation of the OS. I have always
| found Apple's docs to be frustrating, but when I look at them
| without the benefit of my background, I can see how it must
| be maddening to developers coming to the platform.
| aaaaaaaaaaab wrote:
| How about instead fixing any of the hundreds of well-documented
| bugreports raised by your developers instead?
| jbverschoor wrote:
| Stopped submitting those. Takes way too much time to gather
| everything relevant and not get any response.
|
| Apples software quality is pretty shitty these days
| aaaaaaaaaaab wrote:
| I stopped too, after they threw back some of my reports
| because they were missing some completely unrelated generic
| diagnostic info (like which MacBook generation was I using,
| even if the bug was 100% reproducible everywhere), even
| though I've provided them a minimal working example on
| GitHub, and even the method name of the problematic private
| API.
| pram wrote:
| Classic help desk tactics so you don't have to do any work
| lol
|
| Ah well, this JIRA field was empty can't do anything about
| it. WONTFIX
| [deleted]
| AtomicOrbital wrote:
| As a developer I avoid anything Apple ... their disjointed
| technical support forums are terrible ... if only they could
| clone stackexchange
| tkk23 wrote:
| Instead of cloning, they could just pay stackexchange to host
| it.
| harry8 wrote:
| The most appropriate question and one that will be scorned here,
| likely unasked there and even if it was no meaningful response
| offered is:
|
| "Why do you hate us so very, very much?"
| zackify wrote:
| I tried "ask apple"
|
| It's called using the forums.
|
| They reply once in a blue moon and never follow up on bugs.
| barbariangrunge wrote:
| This might be great, but who are the "apple experts" you get to
| be in contact with? It makes me think of the unnecessary logic
| board replacements their experts ("geniuses") at apple stores
| always want you to do, at roughly the cost of a new machine
| LeoPanthera wrote:
| > It makes me think of the unnecessary logic board replacements
| their experts ("geniuses") at apple stores always want you to
| do
|
| I've literally never heard of this, and I've had several
| repairs via the genius bar.
| miles wrote:
| Independent repair shop fixes Apple laptop at a low price
| https://www.cbc.ca/player/play/1346591299727 "Louis Rossmann,
| the owner of a repair shop in New York City who teaches
| millions to fix Apple products on YouTube, repairs a MacBook
| Pro at a much lower cost than an Apple Store in Toronto
| estimated."
|
| 'Complete control': Apple accused of overpricing, restricting
| device repairs https://www.cbc.ca/news/thenational/complete-
| control-apple-a... "CBC News used a hidden camera to verify
| reports that Apple customers are often told their
| malfunctioning computers are not worth fixing, even when
| minor repairs could remedy the problem. When presented with a
| MacBook Pro laptop that had a common issue where the screen
| was not displaying properly, an employee at the Apple Store
| responded by saying the device would need significant repairs
| at a cost of more than $1,200."
| at-fates-hands wrote:
| Wasn't Louis the impetus for the "right to repair"
| movement? I have always thought he was a primary driver in
| getting these companies to allow people to repair their own
| devices for a long time.
|
| Am I right to assume, he's always been the most vocal about
| this?
| CharlesW wrote:
| > _Wasn 't Louis the impetus for the "right to repair"
| movement?_
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_to_repair#History_of_
| the...
|
| He's a relatively recent proponent. The movement's roots
| are automotive and agriculture (where John Deere is their
| Apple).
| MichaelCollins wrote:
| I went to an Apple store to get the (under warranty) battery
| in my perfectly functional Macbook Air replaced. The "genius"
| tried to convince me that the computer had water damage and I
| should buy a new one. I stood my ground and demanded the
| battery I was entitled to and he acted like he was doing me a
| huge favor by ignoring the supposed water damage and giving
| me the battery. He also commented on my android phone and
| told me I should buy an iphone. I went there for warranty
| service, not a sales pitch.
| Wingman4l7 wrote:
| I've read elsewhere that claiming water damage is a common
| tactic by their employees to avoid honoring the warranty.
|
| IIRC there are moisture indicator stickers scattered around
| on the internal components, so I don't know how they get
| off claiming this without using these as proof -- but I've
| seen myself from other laptop dissections that these can
| change color if they're old, possibly from gradual ambient
| humidity?
| SyneRyder wrote:
| I had this on a mid-2012 MBP (bought new in 2015). Somewhere
| around Apple's 4th or 5th repair of the machine. Replacement
| logic board didn't solve the issue, but it sure made macOS
| complain loudly that my machine appeared to have been stolen.
|
| (Real problem was Apple's flaky SATA flex cables, notorious
| for breaking on this model. Been replaced 6 times by Apple. I
| still have the machine - I'm typing on it now - but I do my
| own repairs. And of course I switched years ago to Windows on
| a Thinkpad X1 as my daily driver after that Apple
| experience.)
| c-fe wrote:
| not the OP, but my logic board of my 2020 MBP has been
| replaced twice already to solve problems. Always under
| warranty, so I did not pay myself, but I can attest that they
| do like to suggest these replacements if they can't solve it
| any other way.
| caycep wrote:
| MB failures were a thing back in the oughts; I think it was
| some new mandated lead free environmentally friendly solder
| used at the time in the BGA slots for their GPUs and at least
| some CPUs...granted, they either replaced the MB or the entire
| computer for free for me...
| colejohnson66 wrote:
| Some studies suggest lead-free solder has lower stability
| long term than leaded does.
| Bilal_io wrote:
| The real issue: a small bug. Apple developer: we'll need to
| rewrite this service from scratch.
| moffkalast wrote:
| Must've been a Rust developer working undercover
| saagarjha wrote:
| DTS and engineers. It's similar to a second set of WWDC labs.
| hbbwebw wrote:
| What is a DTS?
| saagarjha wrote:
| Developer Technical Support:
| https://developer.apple.com/support/technical/
| melony wrote:
| Usually interns or juniors. The product managers rarely show
| up.
| spfzero wrote:
| Glad of that actually. As a software developer, I would
| rather talk to the developers.
| everyone wrote:
| Will they answer questions like.. Why have I been waiting weeks
| for a review? Why was my app rejected? Why was my app taken down?
|
| I would imagine these would be like 99% of devs questions.
| anonymouse008 wrote:
| No mention of Quinn the Eskimo - highly suspect.
| RobT7k wrote:
| Quinn the Eskimo and Eric Schlegel, you get an answer from them
| you know it's gold.
| saagarjha wrote:
| You have to ask the right questions to get access to him.
| oefrha wrote:
| Shibboleet. Now fetch him please.
| layer8 wrote:
| Apparently you can email him: https://developer.apple.com/for
| ums/thread/690360?answerId=68...
| ajkjk wrote:
| "We've been listening to feedback from developers around the
| world about what will be most helpful to them as they build
| innovative apps"
|
| Lol, the feedback is surely "stop deleting all your documentation
| without replacing it" and also "please don't make me re-download
| Xcode for 3 hours using an account I forgot the credentials for
| in your terrible app store with its unresumable download flow...
| before I can do anything", but they came up with this?
| prange wrote:
| I agree about the lack of docs, but it's not obvious what you
| are talking about with XCode.
|
| I installed the MAS version years ago and it seems to auto-
| update just fine for me.
|
| When there is a beta, I install that from developer.apple.com
| and the two work just fine on the same machine.
| ajkjk wrote:
| As you can see from the other replies here, it's not just me.
|
| XCode presumably works fine if you work with it daily. What I
| can't fucking stand is having to download it to do something
| unrelated to it (and, lol, how it decides to be the terrible
| default editor for every file that's even vaguely related to
| code and then I have to go update all the file associations).
|
| I especially hate that you have to download a second copy
| every year for the Mac beta. Especially when you have no
| desire to ever write Swift or Obj-c code in your life, like
| most of us.
| prange wrote:
| Why don't you just leave it installed?
| ajkjk wrote:
| I have to update, I mean reinstall, it every year!
| prange wrote:
| Why do you have to reinstall it every year?
| yamtaddle wrote:
| "Make it so I don't contemplate self-harm and/or abandoning my
| life to live in the woods every time I need to update XCode"
| would indeed be a big improvement. IDK WTF they're doing wrong
| with that but god _damn_.
| myhf wrote:
| They're working on that:
| https://twitter.com/kibblesmith/status/1575898595244445696
| MichaelCollins wrote:
| > _I was reading the subtitles of End of Evangelion out
| loud to the baby (because she can't read)_
|
| lmao
| dclowd9901 wrote:
| Here's a highlight reply
|
| https://twitter.com/fobwashed/status/1575943899478380544?
| s=4...
| fn1 wrote:
| I suspect it has to do with APFS doing snapshots to be able
| to rollback an installation and those snapshots being
| gigantic.
| saagarjha wrote:
| Not really. The App Store installation first scans the
| entire bundle before installing the bits it needs, then it
| downloads the update and applies it, which goes through
| some not-very-optimized installation code that compresses
| the bundle on disk using zlib. This is ok for normal apps
| but for Xcode this can take a while. Blowing away the
| entire directory and just installing a fresh copy is
| usually far faster, if you optimize this you can do it in
| under five minutes.
| derefr wrote:
| Is there a reason that these big installations of OS
| "components" aren't just distributed as APFS .dmg files,
| where the (pre-compressed) APFS volume in the disk image
| just gets shoved into your OS APFS container and wired up
| to automount at its directory mount-point?
|
| (Basically like how Ubuntu's Snaps work filesystem-wise;
| but interacting directly with the logical-volume manager
| to create volumes, rather than keeping the disk image
| around as a file in your filesystem.)
|
| For that matter, given that the APFS OS volume is read-
| only, is there a reason macOS hasn't yet transitioned to
| the coreOS model where OS updates just are just
| Courgette-alike binary diffs that construct a new OS
| volume beside the old OS volume atomically by stream-
| merging the old volume with the patch, and then blessing
| the result? Or the game-console software update model
| where the base-images of things are immutable, and
| instead updates are their own read-only volumes that get
| overlay-mounted on top of the base images when you mount
| the base images? (I know macOS can already do the latter
| for security hotfixes; it's strange that they don't use
| that capability for regular updates.)
| MichaelCollins wrote:
| > _" please don't make me re-download Xcode for 3 hours using
| an account I forgot thee credentials for in your terrible app
| store with its un-resumable download flow before I can do
| anything", but they came up with this?_
|
| I'm glad I'm not alone in that experience. Why the hell do I
| need an account to get developer tools in the first place?
| hbbwebw wrote:
| > Why the hell do I need an account to get developer tools in
| the first place?
|
| Because there is a history of rootkits being embedded into
| development tools.
|
| https://9to5mac.com/2015/09/20/xcode-ghost-app-store-
| malware...
| samatman wrote:
| This problem was solved years ago with code signing.
|
| Running unsigned code requires several hoops, even running
| signed code which isn't Apple Approved requires telling the
| OS that you know what you're doing, twice.
|
| Running signed code which has been altered, such as a
| hacked XCode, isn't possible, as far as I know.
|
| If this was the reason developer accounts were required, it
| no longer is. From Apple's perspective, there's only upside
| in requiring them, which is the most likely explanation for
| why they do.
| MichaelCollins wrote:
| How does that have _anything_ to do with requiring users to
| have an account to download software signed by Apple from
| Apple 's servers? That doesn't make a lick of sense to me.
| ajkjk wrote:
| Not developer tools that are downloaded from apple.com.
| saagarjha wrote:
| Technically you don't, there's an unauthenticated endpoint
| discovered recently that lets you grab their tools without
| requiring credentials. But it's annoying to use :(
| jim180 wrote:
| I use this Xcodes[0] just for that. It does not require
| login these days and I can switch between Xcode versions.
|
| [0] https://github.com/RobotsAndPencils/XcodesApp
| Alupis wrote:
| Honest question - why do you all put up with this nonsense? Of
| all the companies you can invest huge amounts of time deving
| for, Apple seems to be the one that makes life the most
| difficult.
|
| Even the annual "Developer License" is absurd... and the
| revenue such licenses generate is trivial.
|
| Some will argue iOS is where the money is at... and that is
| true... but just think about it. The money is on iOS because
| you are putting up with Apple's absurdities!
|
| If more of you stopped putting up with this nonsense then
| either Apple will have to change or another platform will
| become where the money is at... it's that simple.
|
| Steve Balmer chanting "Developers, Developers, Developers!"
| comes to mind. Microsoft realized early on it's 3rd party
| developers would cause Windows to sink or swim, and by most
| accounts developer platforms and tooling coming out of Redmond
| are really good. Why put up with this stuff from Apple?
| ajkjk wrote:
| Well it's because Windows, and especially development on
| Windows, is total fucking garbage. I complain about apply but
| holy shit at least they don't try to put ads on my start
| menu.
|
| (And Linux is infuriating for other reasons, like not having
| the sleek and snappy UX of Mac). Of the three, Apple is my
| favorite. Still think the company is weirdly incompetent at
| totally basic things, though. Like all API design. I will
| never do Apple-specific development for that reason, but I
| prefer it for general purpose work.
| cromka wrote:
| You answer reminds of that of politicians saying to poor
| people they need to stop being poor and just be richer.
| scarface74 wrote:
| Because for some reason many people haven't gotten over their
| addiction to food and shelter nor have they found a legal
| means to support their addiction besides trading labor for
| money.
|
| > Steve Balmer chanting "Developers, Developers, Developers!"
| comes to mind.
|
| Yes and because of Steve Balmer's great leadership, MS was
| able to conquer mobile like they were able to conquer the
| desktop. I see where you are coming from, why don't people
| just develop for Windows phones?
|
| > If more of you stopped putting up with this nonsense then
| either Apple will have to change or another platform will
| become where the money is at... it's that simple.
|
| You really think that if every developer who writes iOS apps
| and posts to HN stopped that anyone would care?
| saagarjha wrote:
| Friends don't let friends download Xcode from the App Store.
| ajkjk wrote:
| Friends might be apple developers instead of just developers
| trying to do something unrelated and randomly discovering
| they need to download Xcode to do something :(
| sixstringtheory wrote:
| Not sure exactly what you mean, but everyone can choose to
| either download Xcode via MAS or
| https://developer.apple.com. I think I tried it with MAS
| once about 7 years ago and have never done that again
| since.
| ajkjk wrote:
| Something that a regular developer of Apple products
| knows, and the rest of us have to figure out, somehow.
| hbbwebw wrote:
| I use the MAS and it's always been fine but honestly it's
| not that hard to figure out.
|
| https://developer.apple.com/xcode/resources/
|
| The download button gives options website or AppStore.
| sixstringtheory wrote:
| Oh I see what you mean. Yeah, it's tribal knowledge
| unfortunately.
| prange wrote:
| It's pretty normal that if you want to use the developer
| tools on a platform and you are not a developer for that
| platform, you are going to have to figure out how to
| install the tools.
|
| This is true for Linux and Windows too.
| dmitriid wrote:
| Why do developer tools like git require the presence of
| XCode?
| hbbwebw wrote:
| I don't think they do.
| https://formulae.brew.sh/formula/git
|
| Downloading the command line tools package is just a
| convenient way to get everything, which is why people
| recommend it.
| dmitriid wrote:
| When you try to install git it forces you to install
| Command Line Tools for XCode (whatever the f that is)
| which can take an unknown time to download, force you to
| accept a license and breaks, and force you to reinstall
| them at least once a year (or randomly the next time they
| break something)
| prange wrote:
| Did you know that GCC take an unknown time to download,
| and forces you to accept a license?
|
| I think it's pretty common knowledge that Macs are sold
| as consumer machines that don't include a full tool chain
| out of the box. Guess what - it's free to download and
| sometimes it gets updates.
|
| It's hard to understand why you are making such a fuss
| about installing developer tools on a developer machine.
|
| Sometimes I find I have to install gcc or clang or llvm
| on a Linux machine in order to install some other
| package. Why would I moan about this?
| dmitriid wrote:
| > Did you know that GCC take an unknown time to download
|
| Why do I need GCC for git?
|
| > Macs are sold as consumer machines that don't include a
| full tool chain out of the box.
|
| It wasn't that long ago that Macs had server software out
| of the box.
|
| Still doesn't explain why I need to download 670 MB of
| something to install otherwise separate tools.
|
| And why the hell things like git break when XCode
| upgrades a version
| prange wrote:
| > Why do I need GCC for git?
|
| You don't - but you do need it on Linux to install
| certain other developer tools. There is nothing unusual
| about having to install developer tools.
|
| > It wasn't that long ago that Macs had server software
| out of the box.
|
| So what? Are you saying you didn't realize MacOS is now
| aimed at consumers?
| dmitriid wrote:
| > There is nothing unusual about having to install
| developer tools.
|
| And yet, only in MacOS I need to install 670 MB of junk
| to install, say, git. Why?
|
| > Are you saying you didn't realize MacOS is now aimed at
| consumers?
|
| This doesn't explain why I need to install 670 MB of
| tools to install separate developer tools that are not
| even Apple's.
| prange wrote:
| > And yet, only in MacOS I need to install 670 MB of junk
| to install, say, git. Why?
|
| With all due respect, it's very unclear why you are
| experiencing so much pain over this. It really isn't a
| big deal.
| MichaelCollins wrote:
| > _Did you know that GCC [...] forces you to accept a
| license?_
|
| No it doesn't. The GPL is only relevant if you plan to
| distribute GCC, and you are never made to affirm your
| agreement when downloading, installing or using GCC. GCC
| never prompts you with any "click agree to continue"
| bullshit.
| benrow wrote:
| I was in this position just recently where git suddenly
| stopped working, due to needing a complete update of
| xcode tools. Annoying blocker but OK, let's get it done.
|
| But trying to download the xcode tools put me into a loop
| which wasn't completing for some reason. After several
| attempts waiting for it to download and install I gave up
| and created an alias 'git' which points to my brew
| install of git (in usr/local/bin I think).
|
| This will bite me somehow very soon, I'm sure.
| prange wrote:
| There is no such requirement.
| classified wrote:
| They don't. Use MacPorts. MacPorts git also receives
| frequent updates. Xcode isn't updated that often.
| [deleted]
| masklinn wrote:
| Surely "why is radar a black hole of suck" is in there
| somewhere?
| x0x0 wrote:
| It's absolutely not. Apple desires quick and easy fixes.
| Devoting time to good documentation, product support, caring
| about bugs, and devrel ... not gonna happen.
| skohan wrote:
| Or how about "let me build and run an app on my device without
| XCode spending 20 minutes 'Preparing Apple Watch for
| development'"
| george_perez wrote:
| Highly recommend Xcodes.app instead.
| https://github.com/RobotsAndPencils/XcodesApp
| float4 wrote:
| And if you struggle with Xcode claiming large amounts of disk
| space:
|
| 1. Use DevCleaner[0] to remove old/unnecessary device support
| files.
|
| 2. Remove platforms you don't develop for, e.g.
|
| - rm -rf
| /Applications/Xcode.app/Contents/Developer/Platforms/Watch*
|
| - rm -rf
| /Applications/Xcode.app/Contents/Developer/Platforms/AppleTV*
|
| DevCleaner freed up 10G+ for me the first time, the two rm
| commands above free up ~3G each.
|
| [0] https://github.com/vashpan/xcode-dev-cleaner
| princevegeta89 wrote:
| One feedback I will provide:
|
| "Deprecate your shitty XCode IDE, and partner with Jetbrains.
| Give us a solid editor just like what Google did with Android
| Studio"
| BonoboIO wrote:
| Apple Support has left the chat
| fooker wrote:
| XCode is amazing for working on large C++ codebases compared to
| pretty much everything else. The closest I have seen is
| QtCreator, but that's not as polished. The trendy ones don't
| even come close.
| squeaky-clean wrote:
| Have you tried CLion? That or Visual Studio have been much
| better for C++ in my personal use cases at least.
| princevegeta89 wrote:
| +1 in my use cases as well, XCode was good for nothing. I
| was feeling punished whenever I had to do iOS development
| with XCode.
| apatheticonion wrote:
| I wish I could write my native app in whatever language - say
| Rust - and use bindings for OS GUI libraries to render a UI.
|
| but it looks like Google and Apple require you to use
| Kotlin/Swift to create UIs
| cudgy wrote:
| Why? Kotlin and Swift are easy to learn and don't require a
| special library and interop that needs to be updated with every
| new version of the SDK.
| PeterCorless wrote:
| I remember when Apple first launched the System 7 Helpline. It
| was 13 May 1991. And it was the first time in Apple's history
| they took direct consumer questions. [I worked on the System 7
| Helpline with the initial cadre of support reps.]
|
| At the time, they had some sort of developer support line which
| was considered practically a state secret. They didn't want
| anyone trying to reach Apple developers directly. Not even the
| people from the System 7 Helpline. I remember making a new
| version of the "System Errors DA" for System 7. Apple users
| considered me a god. The actual Apple developers were creatures
| from beyond time and space.
|
| Apple also only wanted to take limited calls from their dealer
| channel, and most of that was for hardware issues only.
| Supporting software at the developer level, unless you were at
| the Microsoft Office level, was anathema.
|
| So here we are thirty one years later and finally Apple is
| opening up a direct developer relations line. How might Apple's
| history have been altered had it actually been less standoffish
| towards developers in the 1990s, 2000s, and 2010s?
|
| Did I miss other iterations at something like this over the
| decades? [I have to admit it's been years since I've fallen off
| the Apple wagon other than as a user.]
|
| Also, why is this limited to mere "one-on-one 25-minute
| consultations?" Why can't it be a team Zoom call? Why can't it go
| for an hour? Where's the Slack channel?
|
| What would an annual team developer support agreement look like?
| (Scalable for individual developers, small teams, large teams,
| etc.)
|
| I _guess_ this is a step in the right direction, but it still
| smacks of decades-ago thinking. Long overdue. But perhaps not
| sufficient for this day and age.
| nemothekid wrote:
| > _Also, why is this limited to mere "one-on-one 25-minute
| consultations?" Why can't it be a team Zoom call? Why can't it
| go for an hour? Where's the Slack channel?_
|
| Aren't you a developer? How would you feel if your job was
| suddenly "customer support engineer" overnight? IMO, direct
| developer channels only makes sense when you are small; and one
| developer has the entire product in their head. Once the
| problem becomes large you end up with:
|
| 1. Developer knows nothing $problem, because it was written by
| a different team, effectively making them tier 3 support.
|
| 2. Developer quits because being "tier 3 support" wasn't
| communicated effectively in hiring.
|
| 3. Developer(s) actively avoid hour long team support sessions
| because developers aren't promoted on being closing support
| tickets, they are promoted on delivering features
|
| 4. Customer does not bring in enough revenue to support tying
| up $n developers for hours at a time.
|
| Not to say you cannot build great developer support systems;
| just that direct customer contact with the engineer who built
| $x isn't scalable.
| smoldesu wrote:
| > Developers can ask for [...] help with App Review Guidelines
| and distribution tools.
|
| This bit is really interesting. It's not a solution to app
| distribution woes on iOS and macOS, but it _is_ a response to the
| outcry from developers wanting more clarity on App Review
| Guidelines. It would be _really nice_ if they could ratify these
| guidelines as a more consistent set of universally-applicable
| rules, but I guess an audit session with your local Genius is the
| next best thing.
| nikanj wrote:
| Developers can ask. They probably won't get useful answers. But
| they can ask!
| saagarjha wrote:
| I got very useful answers when I scheduled an appointment.
| YMMV.
| squeaky-clean wrote:
| You managed to schedule an appointment and get time to meet
| someone today? The service just launched a few hours ago.
| shadowfacts wrote:
| They probably mean at WWDC, where App Review-related
| appointments are also available.
| saagarjha wrote:
| They did this last year too.
| amelius wrote:
| Is this like Nvidia's forums, where employees also respond to
| questions?
| coob wrote:
| Apple already has developer forums where employees reply
| ProAm wrote:
| Is it a subscription or do you get access with your yearly
| developer fee?
| rdsnsca wrote:
| It is free for everyone
| view wrote:
| The App Review Guidelines at 4.3) Spam states: the App Store has
| enough ... dating apps. We will reject these apps unless they
| provide a unique, high-quality experience.
|
| Does the App Store accept any new dating apps at all? How high is
| the bar set for the definition of unique high-quality experience?
| I'd hate to invest time and money into creating an iOS app just
| to have it rejected.
|
| I'll try to ask this question on October 17th in the App Store
| Slack channel they've created but I'm just wondering what you all
| think here.
| crooked-v wrote:
| My guess is that this in response to the X,000,000 dating sites
| that are all owned by the same companies and are minimal
| rebrands with identical shared content in order to capture SEO
| clicks, and the inevitable webview wrapper dating apps for
| them.
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