[HN Gopher] Protests in Iran: State-run live TV hacked by protes...
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Protests in Iran: State-run live TV hacked by protesters
Author : lifeisstillgood
Score : 214 points
Date : 2022-10-09 12:03 UTC (10 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.bbc.co.uk)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.bbc.co.uk)
| lifeisstillgood wrote:
| Apart from the usual "this is something important that is
| happening" (which is not quite HN "intellectual curiosity"
| territory, what is striking is the use of what I _assume_ is a V
| for Vendetta mask - with Red and Green daubing.
|
| How culture spreads is ... fascinating.
| master_crab wrote:
| The genesis may have been "V for Vendetta" but I believe
| Anonymous used a similar mask and it's possible the hacker/s
| are aware of that.
| squarefoot wrote:
| Anonymous, and many other unrelated protesters, used the V
| for Vendetta mask when protesting against Scientology not
| just as a symbol but rather because of the cult..er church
| well known tactics of harassing anyone who opposes them. They
| usually followed protesters until they put the mask off so
| they or their car license plate could be photographed easing
| the identification.
| mgdlbp wrote:
| The red and green is just the Iranian flag though. What culture
| were you thinking of? Suiseiseki?
| Kukumber wrote:
| jimlongton wrote:
| > It's similar with the low quality "drone" footage from the
| Uyghurs "camps
|
| Multiple news organizations have published high quality
| satellite photos of the Chinese concentration camps for
| ethnic minorities and Muslims, published the tenders for
| their construction and interviewed both victims and former
| jailers who have fled the country. Chinese officials on
| record boast about the 100s of thousands they have imprisoned
| or send to prison like factories across the country and the
| children they have separated from their parents for "re-
| education". Would you have us all believe this is an
| elaborate "MI6" conspiracy?
| MickerNews wrote:
| space_fountain wrote:
| I can tell you believe this, and I do think it seems
| possible to me the west over plays it's hand. Especially
| the genocide label, but your evidence isn't exactly
| strong. You make it sound like Adrian Zenz is a cultist
| when as far as I can tell he's just a passionate critic.
| As to the photos being deepfaked, I only look at a
| handful. One did look a bit suspicious, none of the
| others did, and none of them have that vanilla this
| person isn't real type look. I also see the fact that
| China restricts travel to the region as compelling
| evidence of foul play even if when they occasionally do
| take people on tours they don't find anything. Like you
| do know the Nazis produced lovely videos of concentration
| camps full have happy people just living out the war or
| whatever, China is hiding something.
|
| My fairly uninformed guess (and tell me if this seems
| right to you) is that what's going on is merely on the
| level of what the US did to American Indians what with
| the boarding schools and the forced removal of their
| children with maybe a touch of forced labor on the side
| for spice.
|
| But it's always worth remembering on this subject, only
| one of these countries tries to have the state capacity
| to squash dissent so yes I am a bit more skeptical of
| what their mouth pieces have to tell the world
| geysersam wrote:
| This is insane. The human rights violations against
| Uighurs in Xinjiang are well documented by serious
| institutions like the UN human rights office.
|
| Read their recent report here: https://www.ohchr.org/site
| s/default/files/documents/countrie...
| xwolfi wrote:
| I live in China, I think if our asses were so clean, we
| could all go there and even visit these reform camps they
| said they built and are not at all cruel and inhumane.
|
| You can say the foreigners exagerate, sure they do, with
| their sudden newfound love for muslim people even the
| worst ayatollahs of the world cant seem to express, but
| hum, it's not like there's no fire behind all this
| smoke...
|
| However I've always been careful not to call it a
| genocide: for me we must prove the mass deaths first.
| philliphaydon wrote:
| Genocide doesn't mean mass killing.
|
| Just to cite Wikipedia...
|
| > In 1948, the United Nations Genocide Convention defined
| genocide as any of five "acts committed with intent to
| destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnic, racial
| or religious group, as such." These five acts were:
| killing members of the group, causing them serious bodily
| or mental harm, imposing living conditions intended to
| destroy the group, preventing births, and forcibly
| transferring children out of the group. Victims are
| targeted because of their real or perceived membership of
| a group, not randomly.
| space_fountain wrote:
| Well, but that isn't the definition tend to think of
| right? They do think mass killing, it's part of why the
| word has such power. If it was merely portrayed as the
| Chinese working to forcibly convert Muslims a lot of the
| US would shrug and say that seems good
| Kukumber wrote:
| Do you remember when chinese were only able to give 1
| single birth?
|
| That policy never applied to ethnic groups, so the idea
| that the chinese government is trying to imprison ethnic
| groups to "re-educate" them is hard to believe
|
| Concerning the MI6 story, it's not a conspiracy, when you
| share that kind of classified, military, materials with the
| public, your intent is not the truth, it's always
| manipulation, specially when the videos are always blurry,
| in the age of HD content, it's kinda fishy, maybe they want
| to obfuscate the imperfections, it gives me similar Colin
| Powell vibes
|
| https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/frontline/article/colin-powell-
| u-n-...
| fritztastic wrote:
| None of what you mention presents plausible evidence of
| your statement implying that CIA/MI6 have monolithic
| control over information regarding the camps. Not to say
| they aren't manipulating information or have no
| involvement, but none of the evidence you present backs
| up your claim.
|
| Enforcing the birth of children and sending people to
| camps are two very different issues.
|
| The content not being HD could be explained by them using
| less detectable drones. I would imagine that flying a
| military or HD drone over sovereign territory would be
| dangerous and an act of aggression, so it's within the
| realm of belief that someone, perhaps covertly, used a
| drone less likely to draw suspicion, not easily
| detectable or traceable to foreign interests.
|
| Moreover if you watch the Frontline (the same source you
| cited above) documentaries about Iraq, you'll find they
| present people working in intelligence at the time
| explicitly told officials Zarqawi was sketchy and that
| the information he presented was not supported by the
| intel they had.
|
| I'm not saying it's a certainty without doubt that the
| camps _are_ everything what some sources allege them to
| be, but it 's also not certain without a doubt that they
| _aren 't_.
| haswell wrote:
| > _That policy never applied to ethnic groups, so the
| idea that the chinese government is trying to imprison
| ethnic groups to "re-educate" them is hard to believe_
|
| I'm trying to understand this paragraph. In your mind, in
| what way does the one child policy make any of this hard
| to believe? How does that policy change our understanding
| of what's going on in these camps?
| Kukumber wrote:
| If they were against ethnic groups, as the current
| western propaganda wants us to believe, they would have
| applied that policy so they'd have less of that
| "problematic ethnic group"
|
| They didn't, which mean they are fine having ethnic
| groups
|
| The west is pushing this propaganda because it's a known
| fact that the US want to split the Chinese territory
| (Tibetan, Uighurs, Taiwanese) (same with Russia btw)
|
| For the same reason they now, publicly announced, want to
| hinder China's development
|
| https://www.channelnewsasia.com/asia/china-lashes-out-
| latest...
| philliphaydon wrote:
| Taiwan is not part of China. There's nothing for the US
| to split.
| bitxbitxbitcoin wrote:
| I have never met a single person that isn't a Chinese
| propogandaist that actually believes Taiwan is a part of
| China. It's such an obvious calling card.
| MickerNews wrote:
| Literally every country in the world, including the USA,
| believes that Taiwan is a part of China. You're extremely
| uninformed on this matter.
| [deleted]
| haswell wrote:
| > _They didn 't, which mean they are fine having ethnic
| groups_
|
| This is a gigantic leap to a conclusion that does not
| logically follow the premise, and ignores evidence that
| requires no such leaps.
|
| I guess it was the inevitable that the Chinese propaganda
| machine would make its way to HN.
| MickerNews wrote:
| haswell wrote:
| Coverage of the abuses in these prisons is not limited to
| a single country or region of the world. And which is "my
| own" country's media?
|
| It is not intellectual laziness to observe that an
| account primarily parrots the propaganda of certain
| repressive governments.
|
| Your own account is rather interesting in that regard.
| MickerNews wrote:
| indemnity wrote:
| As an "Irish" person you sure are remarkably interested
| in defending the Chinese state.
|
| Considering Irish history, your stories seem...
| incongruous.
| MickerNews wrote:
| Strange, I would have said the opposite. Irish people
| tend to be opposed to imperialism considering our history
| of suffering under it.
|
| But I don't defend the Chinese state at all, I just call
| out western warmongering lies.
| Kukumber wrote:
| haswell wrote:
| If you're only aware of blurry videos on Twitter, I'd
| recommend you do a deeper dive and look at additional
| reporting on this matter. You don't have to look very far
| [0] (just a single example).
|
| At least you acknowledge the gigantic leap in your
| argument.
|
| How does one go through the ascension process?
|
| - [0] https://www.bbc.com/news/extra/85qihtvw6e/the-
| faces-from-chi...
| MickerNews wrote:
| haswell wrote:
| > _These images are all fake, and obviously so._
|
| As a photographer, what about these images is obviously
| fake?
|
| > All the eyes are at an identical pitch
|
| Which is evidence of what? Generally, when booking photos
| are taken, the subject is asked to look at a single spot
| to preserve consistency and identifiability.
|
| > _when you go to the source you 'll find many of them
| wearing exactly the same clothes, with exactly the same
| creases._
|
| I find it very unsurprising that people in a prison
| situation are wearing the same clothes.
|
| All of my clothing is also creased in the same places,
| but this is no big conspiracy, there are just popular
| ways of folding clothes...
|
| I'm always interested in getting the whole story, but
| you're going to need to share a less sketchy link...
| MickerNews wrote:
| haswell wrote:
| MickerNews wrote:
| throwaway742 wrote:
| Wow those last two are some pretty bad fakes. The first
| one I could blame on like file corruption or something,
| but I can't think of any way to explain the last two.
| bitxbitxbitcoin wrote:
| Are you aware of the forced marriages to ethnic Han
| Chinese people? I am having trouble following your logic.
| throwaway742 wrote:
| Source?
| MickerNews wrote:
| He's referring to:
|
| "Darren Byler, an anthropologist at Simon Fraser
| University who studies repression in Xinjiang, recently
| uncovered evidence that some Han "relatives" in Uyghur
| homes had coerced women into such marriages."
|
| Byler, who is also an American Kissinger Institute
| fellow. https://www.wilsoncenter.org/person/darren-byler
|
| If it's China news, and it's in the west, it's really
| good policy to completely disbelieve the claims first and
| then demand evidence. You won't get any.
| fritztastic wrote:
| > If they were against ethnic groups, as the current
| western propaganda wants us to believe, they would have
| applied that policy so they'd have less of that
| "problematic ethnic group"
|
| > They didn't, which mean they are fine having ethnic
| groups
|
| Or, they just didn't deem the issue relevant enough to
| spend the resources to deal with it. China is a large
| country, some of those ethnic groups exist in remote
| locations, some very difficult to reach- it has been the
| case numerous times when a natural disaster occurred and
| aid was slow to reach those regions because of logistical
| difficulties.
|
| Perhaps it wasn't that they are fine with the ethnic
| groups, but that they were indifferent and/or deemed them
| unimportant unless they had sufficient reason to think
| they warranted the attention/involvement.
|
| Mind that just because they didn't want to lower their
| numbers, doesn't mean they have no issue with those
| groups, or that they wouldn't have issues with them if
| the situation and their perception of them changed.
| jdmonty wrote:
| Source? Actually, low effort agit prop that could actually
| be done by NGOs. Moral grand standing by US is so
| tiresome... it's an Psyop color revolution otherwise we'd
| see Saudi protests etc.
| Retric wrote:
| China has openly acknowledged these camps, going so far
| has to request the UN acknowledge their sovereignty:
|
| "The Chinese government officially legalized re-education
| camps in Xinjiang in October 2018.[422] Prior to that,
| when international media had asked about the re-education
| camps, China's Ministry of Foreign Affairs said that they
| have not heard of this situation.[423]
|
| On 12 August 2018, a Chinese state-run tabloid, Global
| Times, defended the crackdown in Xinjiang after a U.N.
| anti-discrimination committee raised concerns over
| China's treatment of Uyghurs. According to the Global
| Times, China prevented Xinjiang from becoming 'China's
| Syria' or 'China's Libya', and local authorities'
| policies saved countless lives and avoided a 'great
| tragedy'.[424][425]
|
| On 21 August 2018, Liu Xiaoming, the Ambassador of China
| to the United Kingdom, wrote an article in response to a
| Financial Times report entitled "Crackdown in Xinjiang:
| Where have all the people gone?".[432] Liu's response
| said: "The education and training measures taken by the
| local government of Xinjiang have not only effectively
| prevented the infiltration of religious extremism and
| helped those lost in extremist ideas to find their way
| back, but also provided them with employment training in
| order to build a better life."[433]
|
| In September 2020, amid condemnation from Western
| countries, Chinese paramount leader Xi Jinping acclaimed
| the success of his policies in Xinjiang in a 2-day
| conference expected to set the country's policy for the
| next years.[445] The Chinese government published a white
| paper defending its "vocational training centers,"
| claiming that the regional government organised
| 'employment-oriented training' and labour skills for 1.29
| million workers a year from 2014 to 2019.[446]"
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xinjiang_internment_camps
| MickerNews wrote:
| yorwba wrote:
| If you don't like Wikipedia, how about the Chinese
| government's official arrest statistics? https://web.arch
| ive.org/web/20180725042225/https://www.nchrd... Just
| click on the numbers in the table to verify that they
| match the original Chinese source.
|
| Of course you can choose to believe that the Internet
| Archive is in on the conspiracy, in which case you cannot
| be helped.
|
| Or you can choose to believe that Chinese police were
| exaggerating their arrest statistics to make themselves
| look good, in which case I have an interesting article
| for you that mentions the practice:
| https://madeinchinajournal.com/2019/10/25/punish-and-
| cure%ef...
| MickerNews wrote:
| MickerNews wrote:
| joemazerino wrote:
| I stopped when you said "sinophobes". It is classic CCP
| counter-intel to describe all of it's enemies as racist.
|
| Why are you here on a thread about Iran anyways?
| MickerNews wrote:
| Anti Asian hate crimes have skyrocketed since this
| propaganda campaign kicked off. Sinophobia is a very real
| thing, not a "psyop". The propaganda relies on the
| masses' well cultivated racism in order to propagate.
| Nobody would believe any of this if it was about a
| 'respected' country and not some unknowable other on the
| other side of the planet, that we're meant to believe the
| US has grave humanitarian concerns about.
|
| >Why are you here on a thread about Iran anyways?
|
| Where should I be? It's Sunday morning, it's raining in
| Dublin.
| aaaaaaaaaaab wrote:
| 2 hours ago, when you made your comment, it wasn't
| morning in Dublin. It was mid-afternoon.
| MickerNews wrote:
| I was just out of bed. Morning for me.
| pessimizer wrote:
| I wish people would stop bragging about not reading.
| fritztastic wrote:
| >the intent was to make sure people instantly understand
| without context
|
| This goes without saying, but this isn't exclusive to
| AlQaeda. Using video editing to convey a strong message isn't
| enough reason to conclude there is a link to foreign
| intelligence. Most likely they were just trying to be direct
| and convey a message (a statement to the regime that the
| people are tired of and angry about the oppression/violence)-
| none of what you mentioned to explain your association to
| AlQaeda makes any sense- "musical tribal message"? Are you
| inplying AlQaeda is controlled by a foreign agency? Which
| agency?
|
| Really makes it sound like you have a very vague
| understanding of the region, alongside a very strong bias.
| nashashmi wrote:
| This has the marks of a colour revolution.
|
| From the false news spread constantly being spread by Masiha
| Alinejad, to the focus on a small but growing group of
| protestors, to the massive social media campaigns trying to
| flame the situation both in and outside of Iran, this is well
| coordinated.
|
| Mahsa Amini collapsed at a facility and was never hurt. No
| signs of being beaten are visible on her hospital pictures or
| her entry into the re-education centers. And yet the protest
| started from a few handful and started growing over several
| days.
|
| This is a coordinated campaign of disinformation and protest.
| selimthegrim wrote:
| Would you want Iranian system in Pakistan?
| WastingMyTime89 wrote:
| The questions surrounding the involvement of foreign actors
| are interesting meanly because of the timing. It's
| interesting that Iran see a vague of mass protests right
| after the utter failure of the nuclear talks and when they
| are admittedly very close to getting the bomb. Plenty of
| foreign powers therefore have an interest into seeing the
| current regime fall down and have historically never been
| above giving a gentle push in the right direction. It
| wouldn't in any way make the reasons of the protests
| illegitimate however.
|
| Now, I don't really understand why you bring Al Qaeda and the
| Uyghurs to the mix. That needlessly muddies your point.
| jagaerglad wrote:
| That is like ...nothing, then you have like no idea how
| omnipresent this type of pop culture is (for good or for
| worse). Of course iranians watch these types of movies and of
| course an iranian hacker would be aware of the mask symbolism
| GekkePrutser wrote:
| These masks are also made by the Chinese in the billions and
| available in any "Bazar" for very cheap so they're a cheap
| way to obscure your identity :)
|
| Not saying this is the case here (for TV this is probably
| well considered and it's not the standard Chinese mask which
| is the 'smiling' version) but there might be more than one
| explanation especially for seeing them on the street during
| protests.
| system16 wrote:
| Maybe that was the intention but it doesn't really look like a
| Guy Fawkes mask at all though, other than being a white face
| mask. Eyebrows and eye cut-outs are different, it has a full
| beard, it's not a v-shaped face, etc.
| photochemsyn wrote:
| Given the recent split between the USA and Saudi Arabia over
| crude oil production targets, I wouldn't be surprised to see
| similar hacking of Saudi news feeds by 'domestic protestors' and
| a new US State Department focus on 'human rights and democratic
| reforms in the repressive Saudi dictatorship' coming up pretty
| quickly.
|
| This would be a radical shift from US behavior during the Arab
| Spring, when the USA gave a wink and a nod to Saudi tanks rolling
| into Bahrain to crush the pro-democracy protests there.
|
| [edit] Here's a story about Saudi Arabia, hijabs, and death
| threats to women (2016). Let the revolutions begin!
|
| https://tribune.com.pk/story/1251171/saudis-call-execution-w...
|
| > "A woman in Saudi Arabia has sparked outrage after posting a
| photo of herself on Twitter without an abaya or hijab, and is now
| facing calls for her execution."
| nayaketo wrote:
| Don't know about CIA conspiracies but I'm sure Saudi Arabians
| will protest Hijab mandates one day. Freedom is amazing and
| every human craves it at some level.
| seer-zig wrote:
| Ah yes, the typical astounding secular definition of freedom,
| equating it with nakedness and vices. I'll tell you
| something, the vast majority of the Saudis are proud of the
| Hijab and their Islamic faith that promotes purity and
| decency. We don't want the western definition of "freedom"
| thank you very much, we've seen where it leads
| msoad wrote:
| Tell me you're a muslim man without telling me you're a
| muslim man
| [deleted]
| anthk wrote:
| Your faith is based on backward tribes with no clues around
| themselves being just an spin-off of Judaism. Grow up.
|
| From Canada to the Patagonia, no one had heard of the
| Abrahamic God until the Spaniards arrived. Ditto with China
| and India. And Africa, Scandinavia and the Poles.
|
| So "good" for the "universal" God from Abraham that just a
| millenia ago your religion was inexistent for more than
| 9/10 of the population across the globe.
| jdmonty wrote:
| I'm not a Muslim but agnostic and agree that "freedom" is
| poorly defined and subjective like "idea" of America
| which is empty cipher. Ruling class of US idea of freedom
| is for citizens to be free to take on debt and live
| precarious alienated life with not a small portion dying
| in abject poverty and increasingly alone.
| pvaldes wrote:
| It leads to people showing the hair in their heads, that is
| the normal way in your species. Including the majority of
| the muslim population and the majority of the human
| population.
|
| If you think this is the same as being naked in public or
| that women's hair is impure, well... You live in a very sad
| place and deserve compassion. It really sucks to be you,
| but your pain is self-inflicted.
|
| Enjoying the feminine grace and beauty is one of the
| greatest pleasures of being alive.
| uquercia wrote:
| Freedom is amazing , true. But I am afraid you could be over
| optimistic saying that everyone craves it. Unfortunately many
| people have short-term goals that are more important for them
| than freedom...
| seer-zig wrote:
| The freedom to get naked in the streets yeah? Thanks but no
| thanks.
|
| You're correct that our goals and culture that promotes
| purity and piety is more important than what the secular
| West defines as "freedom"
| Slava_Propanei wrote:
| avgcorrection wrote:
| Perhaps. But these things are not signs of that since the
| American government has hated the Iranian government for a long
| time.
|
| It would be much more suspicious if the US govt. started to
| support the Iranian govt. all of a sudden.
| boomboomsubban wrote:
| You don't think they'd try to change a government they've
| hated for a long time? I would also find a sudden 180 on Iran
| suspicious, but also would not be surprised if any Iranian
| opposition group had US support.
| avgcorrection wrote:
| I would think that they would, yes. And it is a day that
| ends with "y" so it is as likely that they are doing it now
| as it was five years ago.
| ProjectArcturis wrote:
| The basic deal between the US and SA is, in exchange for
| supplying the global oil market, the US will overlook SA's
| dictatorship, human rights abuses, and involvement in 9/11, and
| will supply them with weapons. If SA stops upholding its side
| of the deal, I would expect the Arab Spring would suddenly find
| its way to SA. Or, perhaps first, the US would support a coup
| against MBS to replace him with a more compliant member of the
| House of Said.
| futhey wrote:
| People read too much into the recent production target cuts. An
| important thing to consider is that OPEC+ has been failing to
| meet their targets by about the same amount for several months
| now, and most experts seem to believe they lack capacity, not
| the will to produce.
|
| https://markets.businessinsider.com/news/commodities/opec-mi...
| fritztastic wrote:
| This is a very simplistic view of the tensions in the region,
| which have been ongoing for decades. Just as the US has reason
| to retaliate against Saudi Arabia, many other places could also
| have reasons to push the ruling family out of power and gain
| influence.
|
| It also fails to account for the autonomy of the people there.
| Is it really so hard to believe that they are rebelling against
| authoritarianism?
|
| Even if there is an interest to empower the people to oust the
| regime, wouldn't it be fomenting on already existing
| unhappiness?
|
| Interestingly, the same can be said of unrest anywhere-
| undoubtedly the agendas of several states will always align
| with weakening their competitors/adversaries.
|
| When you consider the things everyday people care about and
| strive for, it can be argued that any party interested in
| destabilizing another nation would play to those aspirations in
| such a way as to further their control- this is true of almost
| everywhere, it is not exclusive to any one people or any one
| institution, and it can be seen in every region. In any given
| place, if you take a close look, there are varying levels of
| influence from foreign powers- often with the goal to secure
| economic goals or obtain natural resources.
| avgcorrection wrote:
| > Even if there is an interest to empower the people to oust
| the regime, wouldn't it be fomenting on already existing
| unhappiness?
|
| Out of all the nations on Earth, perhaps a majority of them
| have some kind of discontent among the population. Then, with
| this blank cheque being given, the nations with the most
| powerful intel agencies can empower the ones they want into
| full-blown protests.
|
| The conspiracy theory that Russia influenced the two recent
| American presidential elections naturally come to mind. If
| that was the case--and I don't doubt that they might have
| invested a small pittance into FB ads--then they were surely
| just building on existing unhappiness, as Trump supporters
| are too numerous to all be sleeper agents of the waning super
| power that is Russia.
| Slava_Propanei wrote:
| somenameforme wrote:
| You're absolutely right it's been going on for decades, but I
| think looking into that history is also telling. In 1953 Iran
| was a relatively secular and democratic nation that had
| generally positive, though flagging, relations with the West.
| Then their leader decided to reduce US/UK control over his
| country's oil assets. So of course we had to bring democracy
| to them. But since they already had a democracy, autocracy
| would have to do instead. [1]
|
| We staged a coup, overthrew their democracy, and installed an
| extremely unpopular puppet dictator and monarch. 26 years
| later in 1979 there was another revolution, except this one
| was carried out by the people of Iran, and not the CIA. The
| puppet (still ruling from 1953 interestingly) was overthrown,
| and in his place an Islamic theocracy was created. And since
| then it's invariably been headed by leaders that, for some
| reason, haven't been especially fond of the West - and
| frequently imply we're up to shenanigans. That scenario
| continues to this day.
|
| Ultimately I no longer really believe that we deserve the
| benefit of the doubt when it comes to black ops types
| scenarios. We've turned what should be a sort of last resort
| act of subterfuge into what increasingly seems to be a front-
| line approach to international relations. The most bizarre
| part is that these shenanigans never even really seem to
| achieve anything. Iran just being one example of going black
| ops to undermine one enemy, only to create one 10x more
| deadly, dangerous, and hostile than the former.
|
| All we really seem to be achieving is the fast-tracking of
| WW3.
|
| [1] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1953_Iranian_coup_d%27%C3
| %A9ta...
|
| [2] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iranian_Revolution
| wefarrell wrote:
| There's a theory that 1979 started as a British plot to
| retaliate against the Shah for nationalizing the oil
| industry.
| darawk wrote:
| The fact that the US orchestrated a coup in 1953 proves
| that the US is also orchestrating this coup today? That's
| the argument?
| pazimzadeh wrote:
| It obviously means there's reason to be suspicious. It
| took 60 years for the US to admit its role in the 1953
| coup.
| anigbrowl wrote:
| No, GP is a legit comment. Everything you say about Iran is
| also true of Saudi Arabia (in the sense of the ruling regime
| being autocratic and oppressive) but it's expedient for the
| establishment in the US to condemn one regime and support the
| other.
| unity1001 wrote:
| > This is a very simplistic view of the tensions in the
| region
|
| That is a very simplistic, and correct view of how the US
| manipulates such tensions.
|
| There are many of us international HNers, whose countries
| suffered multiple US backed coups or color revolutions, and
| even worse, whose grassroots popular movements were co-opted
| and subverted by the US.
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solidarity_(Polish_trade_union.
| ..
|
| So much that even the 'people's movement', Solidarity in
| Poland, that was the 'trade union' movement that overthrow
| their government, was CIA funded and organized. The same
| thing has been a staple of daily life in Middle East since
| 1960s, when CIA decided to fund and use Islamist groups.
| fritztastic wrote:
| As someone from one of those countries, I'm well aware.
|
| I'm not saying the US, and/or proxies of the agendas of the
| powerful who stand to gain from exploitation and meddling,
| _aren 't_ involved. I would expect they are very much
| involved, and I would be very skeptical of any claim they
| aren't.
|
| What I'm saying is simply that despite this, people in
| those places could conceivably be independently fed up- and
| their dissatisfaction with their regimes stands on its own
| and is valid. There is a lot of nuance and a lot of
| different intersecting motivations and interests at play.
|
| I just think, in my personal opinion, that those things
| people fight and risk dying for (freedom from persecution,
| personal safety, to be able to put food on the table, to
| care for family, etc) aren't _only_ happening because of
| outside factors and political reasons, these are human
| concerns. People in Iran, Saudi Arabia, anywhere else, aren
| 't _just_ pawns susceptible to propagands- they understand
| there are all sorts of players trying to gain dominance
| over their lives. A lot of people in the US have these
| broad ideas about people in entire regions, as though they
| 're monoliths- like people in Iran/Saudi Arabia were
| content and would have been obedient if not for foreign
| involvement, which I think is simplistic and I disagree
| with this assumption.
|
| People in an uprising and nations in upheaval are
| especially vulnerable to external groups swooping in to
| manipulate the situation to their interests- this much is
| true, and it can also be true that people would have been
| rising up regardless. How this plays out over time is yet
| to be seen but unfortunately the most likely scenario is
| some other despot will step in to further their personal
| agenda at the expense of the people, whether they align
| with US interests or otherwise... like anywhere else, those
| in power will fight to maintain and gain power and control,
| no matter the human cost and devastation- this is true
| everywhere.
| unity1001 wrote:
| > How this plays out over time
|
| How this plays out over time is either of the two: 1) The
| protests fail, either due to the momentum fading or the
| government suppressing 2) The protests succeed, and the
| country gets a US backed government. Along with all the
| privatization, removal of labor protections and social
| welfare, decline in life standards.
|
| Unfortunately, there hasnt been any case of the
| protesters somehow being able to avert that while still
| succeeding. Because such protests and movements need
| organization to succeed. And if there wasnt an
| indigenous, powerful source of such organization present
| in the country for a long time, the organization will be
| coming from those who are backed by the US.
|
| A US backed government would mean hell for both Saudis
| and Iranis - Saudi Arabia has VERY extensive social
| programs that literally guarantee everyone's comfort,
| life and education. Iran does not have those, but it
| still has enough such programs and the traditional
| cultural relations and social fabric is still alive.
| Those tend to get destroyed in the first wave of
| privatizations and 'free marketization'.
| jdmonty wrote:
| Saudis not always acquiescing to US pleas/demands
| historically hasn't ever regime change ops. They have
| Long history of cooperation likely, arms deals, key to
| keeping dollar for their market, keep up starving
| slaughtering Yemen, where as Iran has been one of baddies
| since 1979
| unity1001 wrote:
| That was so until the US establishment came up with the
| idea of breaking up Saudi Arabia recently.
| jdmonty wrote:
| I agree but what you're missing from threat modeling is
| relative capability of actors. And yes not there's
| degrees of of organic discontent which is key to
| amplifying or muting etc. they'll have intelligence and
| adapt vectors. For example the girl was killed is a fact.
| The trick is building narrative and this is where likely
| lies of omission or exaggeration or semantics come in in
| e.g. girl is dead, it's evil repressive regimes fault, we
| demand justice. Not perfect science for sure
|
| [edit]
| [deleted]
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