[HN Gopher] Call for Participation to Chaos Computer Club's 37C3
___________________________________________________________________
Call for Participation to Chaos Computer Club's 37C3
Author : hacka22
Score : 172 points
Date : 2022-10-09 07:38 UTC (15 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (content.events.ccc.de)
(TXT) w3m dump (content.events.ccc.de)
| m00dy wrote:
| I wonder in what category the concept of decentralisation fall
| into.
| fit2rule wrote:
| TEP_Kim_Il_Sung wrote:
| Decentralized is nice, but Distributed is better.
| m00dy wrote:
| Distributed is nice, but still can be centralized.
| k__ wrote:
| Maybe, Security?
|
| I mean, cryptography is at the core of it.
| abudabi123 wrote:
| Two categories I can think of are the quantum field or the
| totality.
| anthk wrote:
| >Social sciences
|
| No.
| atoav wrote:
| There have been quite some interesting social science talks at
| the last iterations of the congress. E.g. regarding the
| interaction between technology and society, quantitative
| analysis on bots on social media and such.
|
| So whatever weird prejudice you seem to showcase here, maybe it
| is worth considering to get over yourself for something that
| interests... hackers. It is a hacker conference after all, and
| believe it or not technology also intersects with social
| sciences in interesting ways.
| 3l3ktr4 wrote:
| Does anyone know how can I join the org team?
| lucb1e wrote:
| Probably start by volunteering as angel and get to know people,
| being proactive, organize, and roll into such a function?
| farhaven wrote:
| The sibling already answered in broad strokes. For the current
| congress, you're probably too late. Organizing the thing
| started, if I remember that correctly, somewhere around
| May/June this year.
|
| There's multiple levels of organization, grouped under the
| various *OCs (Foo Operations Center), the best place to get to
| know them and get involved is at the congress through angel
| shifts. The second best place is probably to hang out in the
| various German/Swiss/Austrian hackerspaces during the year and
| getting to know people who are part of the orga.
| O__________O wrote:
| Anyone have links to prior examples of submission that resulted
| in presentation with a link to the presentation too?
|
| Here are two blog post on suggestions for researching and
| submitting security conference proposals:
|
| https://medium.com/katies-five-cents/writing-infosec-confere...
|
| https://sroberts.medium.com/building-better-security-present...
| q3k wrote:
| https://fahrplan.events.ccc.de/congress/2019/Fahrplan/
|
| https://media.ccc.de/b/congress/2019
| O__________O wrote:
| Thanks, just to make sure I am not missing anything, those
| are examples of presentations, but the proposals that were
| submitted for them are not provided, right?
|
| Looking for them myself, found to guides to research and
| submitting proposals which I added to the original request
| for examples; neither though appear to provide actual
| submission examples.
| q3k wrote:
| The most important elements of the submission (abstract and
| description) are there. There's no reason to try to 'game'
| this, just submit a good talk proposal on a topic that
| aligns with the focus tracks of the conference.
|
| The CfP is handled by people who are able to tell apart a
| bullshit talk with a well-written proposal from a good talk
| with a proposal written by someone inexperienced. :)
| O__________O wrote:
| Mainly just curious what gets submitted as is, since
| guessing a lot of people have no idea what to expect and
| seeing prior examples would significantly reduce that
| gap.
|
| (Also swear I have seen something like blog post that
| showed this before, but unable to find it.)
| johannes1234321 wrote:
| Previously accepted talks give you a quite good sample
| about what kind of content is accepted ...
| froh wrote:
| you'll find plenty of CCC talks on YouTube.
| Kenji wrote:
| 6stringmerc wrote:
| >We also welcome submissions that present a theoretical
| reflection on the impact of new technologies on artistic
| practices and forms of expression.
|
| Finally, the perfect forum to deliver my perspective of ML and AI
| current state of music and the outlook for the next 1, 3, and 5
| years. There will be a lot of hurt feelings. It will be very
| constructive however and show the roadmap between artists and
| engineers that is yet to develop in earnest and can potentially
| be the next largest US cultural export.
|
| To use a simile, the current level of ML/AI music is about on par
| with a precocious elementary student with a basic understanding
| of an Akai MPC. That's why you can listen to 1,000 of them and
| _maybe_ one resembles a not-bad song. Not bad is not good mind
| you. It just means it's not physically offensive / unlistenable
| to humans.
|
| One of the hardest lessons for non-creative people to learn about
| the _how_ of what I do need to understand creativity is
| inherently rule breaking. Derivative art - like that hack
| warhol's Prince portrait- have a limited impact overall. Coming
| back from crazy town with a handful of cool images nobody has
| seen before like Dali? Now we're talking!
|
| There is hope in the sector, but unfortunately for the tech
| realm, you're doomed unless you reconfigure your development
| approach to have 60% of the brain pathways look like spaghetti
| designed by a coked up ambitious chimp with Visio. I'll have to
| dig it up but I heard guitar sales in the US increased during the
| pandemic...same basic design since the log.
| Barrin92 wrote:
| >the current level of ML/AI music is about on par with a
| precocious elementary student with a basic understanding of an
| Akai MPC.
|
| not really true. As far as seven(!) years back people have done
| experiments where AI reproduction was good enough to fool even
| experienced listeners
| (https://www.nbcnews.com/tech/innovation/computer-
| generates-m...)
|
| The biggest issue with AI art isn't the quality, we can already
| make generative art that is faithful enough to not be
| distinguishable. It's that authorship is an inherent part of
| art, and nobody is really interested in art that has no human
| creator in the same way nobody watches bots play chess, despite
| higher quality of play. Authenticity is central to art, what
| Walter Benjamin called the 'aura' of a work. (it's unique place
| in space and time, which automated art does not have).
|
| Keeping this in mind the NFT craze over seemingly random
| pictures makes more sense, because it was essentially a
| mechanism to give a replaceable, fungible, mechanic work an
| aura of sorts, anchoring it. Rather than fidelity, this will be
| the central question of the tech/art intersection.
| codethief wrote:
| > To use a simile, the current level of ML/AI music is about on
| par with a precocious elementary student with a basic
| understanding of an Akai MPC.
|
| Uhhmm...
|
| https://www.beethovenx-ai.com/
| nmilo wrote:
| And how much training and guiding did that take? It's not
| like they hit "generate" and the first try made some good
| music. This definitely took a ton of human guidance and
| curation.
| lbotos wrote:
| Does more guidance == less valuable? I don't think so.
| black_puppydog wrote:
| Funny to see a bunch of (quickly flagged) comments that show a
| clear misunderstanding of what the German hacker scene is and
| wants.
|
| Besides not being a monolith and this being amenable to labeling
| as such, it's still in many parts different from many other
| hacker scenes.
|
| The CCC has always had the ambition (and backing
| credentials/skills) to be a political movement as much as a
| technological one. In fact that's the origin story of the
| Congress; Wau Holland inviting others to "do something" with
| these machines that were set to change the world. This political
| attitude always had a left and anti-fascist bent, IMHO something
| that Germany in the 80s, and nowadays, desperately needs.
|
| The US scene in comparison (seen from far, just to be clear)
| looks much more comfortable with closeness to corporate and state
| actors. Having worked with the intelligence community seems to be
| more of a badge of honor over there?
|
| In France in comparison the scene as I see it focuses much more
| on making _things_ , while organisations like La Quadrature du
| Net are well known but small and not at all organized/supported
| in the grass roots way that the CCC is. Which is why they seem to
| enjoy the CCC events, it's always great to have them there. :)
|
| I might be getting this very wrong, like I said I'm only seeing
| the US scene from "over here" and I only have shallow interaction
| with the French scene.
|
| I'd also love to hear from other places and how your local nerd
| communities do in terms of taking political agency.
| aestetix wrote:
| I agree completely. There are many things I like about CCC. For
| example, corporate sponsorship is forbidden, and many speakers
| use handles rather than their legal name. This distancing from
| $dayjob helps to prevent government/military and corporations
| from undue influence, and also frees the speakers to say what
| they actually think about a technology, not fearing that they
| will lose their job over it.
|
| Regarding the political bent, one big difference from the US is
| that people at CCC will openly express their disagreements, and
| are generally respectful about it. The only limitations are
| that Nazis are not allowed, which is partly because they are
| forbidden by law.
| j3s wrote:
| > The US scene in comparison (seen from far, just to be clear)
| looks much more comfortable with closeness to corporate and
| state actors.
|
| this is true, and it's one of the reasons I helped start
| cyberia.club and layerze.ro - US tech is deeply entwined with
| megacorps and it sucks the joy out of hacking, at least imho.
| super256 wrote:
| I left the CCC in 2020 after C3 crew decided that the cock.li
| mail-service is a fascist and started, escalated, and carried
| out an attack on its administrator Vincent Canfield [1].
|
| Sorry, but throwing someone on the floor in front of the
| congress building for registering clearly sarcastic domains
| such as "hitler.rocks" and "nuke.africa" is just not what I
| understand under anti-facism. It's merely a power move for
| confirming your own moral superiority. I mean, just look at the
| website, and you will clearly see that the whole site is meant
| as a joke.
|
| If you want to be political, you shouldn't start with labelling
| someone as "fac|rac|sex-ist" because that implicitly means that
| it's the end of the discussion. That's not how politics should
| work. Paul Graham wrote a wonderful essay about this. [2]
|
| I'm now just donating my ex-membership fee to my local
| Chaostreff, since I know what kind of person runs that place :)
|
| [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2W_61YicxOM
|
| [2] http://paulgraham.com/heresy.html
| Dunedan wrote:
| > Sorry, but throwing someone on the floor in front of the
| congress building for registering clearly sarcastic domains
| such as "hitler.rocks" and "nuke.africa" is just not what I
| understand under anti-facism.
|
| I'm not familiar with what happened there, but at least to me
| these domain names are definitely not "clearly sarcastic".
| glogla wrote:
| Oh you're missing the best one, "nigge.rs".
| super256 wrote:
| > I'm not familiar with what happened there, but at least
| to me these domain names are definitely not "clearly
| sarcastic".
|
| Have you taken a look at the website? [1] You should be
| able to detect that the site is satire within a few
| seconds.
|
| Of course, we could dig up the whole "what is satire, what
| is x-ism" controversy up again, like after the Charlie
| Hebdo shooting. But I do believe that it's a joke,
| especially when looking at the context (what most people
| apparently don't do).
|
| And before labelling someone as a fascist, that's
| undoubtedly the thing that you should do first: look at the
| context.
|
| [1] https://cock.li/
| numpad0 wrote:
| Did you just invent a longform for "it's only a prank
| broo" expression
| Dunedan wrote:
| > Have you taken a look at the website?
|
| No, I haven't, because the parent comment was referring
| to registering these domains, not about what they serve.
|
| I also don't want to judge whether whatever happened at
| that C3 was justified, but rather that it's not clear
| from just domain names if there meant in a sarcastic way
| or not.
| dingosity wrote:
| meh. sure. the world is against you and doesn't understand
| your specialness. or you could just read Popper.
| sascha_sl wrote:
| As someone who has spent time on Vincent's mumble years ago,
| he is definitely at least fascist adjacent.
|
| And his use of slurs is by no means ironic, unless you want
| to claim he is ironic 100% of the time he is online.
| medlazik wrote:
| "fac|rac|sex-ist"s must absolutely be called as such _first
| thing_ in order to end the discussion. Characterized,
| ignored, deplatformed.
| super256 wrote:
| No, because it takes priority over the question of truth or
| falsity, and it outweighs everything else the person has
| done. Regardless how positive its impact has been.
| medlazik wrote:
| Separate the artist from his art, and all this bullshit.
| That's the usual neolib reasoning, nothing new.
| Capitalists historically never had a problem with
| Fascism, only posturing.
| glogla wrote:
| In just this post, you
|
| 1) Disingenuously frame someone being removed from premises
| where they are not welcome as "decided that X is a fascist
| and started, escalated, and carried out an attack".
|
| 2) Care more about someone who runs services on
| "hitler.rocks", "nuke.africa" and "nigge.rs" than you care
| about CCC being kind and welcoming place for everyone - for
| example, people who might not want to be called "niggers".
|
| 3) Use "it's just joke bro" as a defense for despicable
| behavior.
|
| I have no idea what someone like you was doing in CCC in the
| first place.
| super256 wrote:
| > 1) Disingenuously frame someone being removed from
| premises where they are not welcome as "decided that X is a
| fascist and started, escalated, and carried out an attack".
|
| No, this is -- to my best knowledge -- what happened.
|
| > 2) Care more about someone who runs services on
| "hitler.rocks", "nuke.africa" and "nigge.rs" than you care
| about CCC being kind and welcoming place for everyone - for
| example, people who might not want to be called "niggers".
|
| No one is calling anyone like this. But I see that it's
| intentionally provoking through obscenity. However, it is
| not possible to determine the boundary between "obscene"
| and "non-obscene" according to factual characteristics, and
| everything about this is subjective:
|
| For some people graffiti is obscene, for some people
| kissing in public is obscene, for some people name-calling
| is obscene, and some aren't concerned with whatever you do.
|
| In fact, we can see this in this discussion: I see that the
| domain is using the TLD to break a taboo and to get
| attention, but I don't see an insult in this as it's not
| redirected at anyone harmfully. It's all up to the reader's
| interpretation.
|
| > 3) Use "it's just joke bro" as a defense for despicable
| behavior.
|
| I would agree with you, if he would actually make
| differences between race or sex. But he doesn't.
|
| In the end it's just a vanity domain, which to me is funny
| for the reason that so many people get hung up on it, which
| is most likely the desired effect.
| exolymph wrote:
| "Satire" isn't the right designation -- it's trolling, which
| is related but distinct (and permits but does not require
| sincerity).
| pclmulqdq wrote:
| At some point in the future, people will be studying and
| analyzing 4chan trolling the way they analyzed British
| political satire rags of the 1800s.
|
| It is a new form of writing, though. Satire, today, is
| thought of as something that is known to be false, while
| trolling seems to be characterized by a sort of "stochastic
| truth" where the author is purposely ambiguous about
| whether they believe it or not. It lets the author of a
| piece of trolling say things that are clearly over the
| line, and mean it. It lets the author walk back the
| statements if they are unpopular and lean in if they are
| popular.
|
| I do wonder if original pieces of satire and parody from
| hundreds of years ago were written with the intention of
| the same ambiguity of truth.
| kmeisthax wrote:
| Political satire being taken as truth[0] comes with the
| territory. In fact, that's kind of the implicit joke. We
| laugh at every politician that reads an Onion article and
| thinks they need to rally the wagons to stop the $8bn
| Planned Parenthood Abortionplex. It is a rhetorical prank
| on the rich and powerful.
|
| The problem with 4chan political trolling is that they
| always use the same fucking joke and there's no
| underlying satire to pick up upon. "Here's some people
| who don't fit in to the default social mold, now laugh
| and mock." This isn't satire, there's no rhetorical
| prank. This is just pissing in an ocean of piss. Even
| treating the board as a whole performative art piece is
| just running the OneJoke recursively against a large
| swath of probably-white, possibly-poor, definitely
| autistic people.
|
| There is no ambiguity of truth. The people who treated
| /pol/ as satire up and left decades ago. The only people
| who remain are true believers interested in hurting
| people, including themselves.
|
| [0] Also known as "eating The Onion"
| Foxboron wrote:
| >I left the CCC in 2020 after C3 crew decided that the
| cock.li mail-service is a fascist and started, escalated, and
| carried out an attack on its administrator Vincent Canfield
| [1].
|
| You choose to ignore the anti-trans posters they hung up in
| the conference center.
| super256 wrote:
| > You choose to ignore the anti-trans posters they hung up
| in the conference center.
|
| This is news to me. Could you share more info about this? I
| did a quick google search and couldn't find anything.
| Foxboron wrote:
| Well, I don't know what to tell you. There isn't anything
| published around this. But you can maybe find traces of
| the posters on social media.
|
| They where an iteration of the "Birds doesn't exist..."
| posters which was a meme during that years CCC.
| dijit wrote:
| This is very new information to me and I followed the
| drama closely at the time as I have friends on both
| sides.
|
| I would appreciate a citation as _nobody_ has mentioned
| anti-trans posters.
|
| What was mentioned is that there had been conflict the
| year before and that Vincent was told he wasn't welcome,
| which was the root of the escalation.
| throwaway35c3 wrote:
| There were threads in 4chan /g/ around 35c3. Hard to find
| the photos now, but "Trans aren't real girls wake up
| 35c3" post with the number "69115371" is in the thread:
| https://archive.ph/ki6Un See other posts to get the
| impression.
|
| cock.li, /g/, 4chan joint assembly printed and spammed
| these posters and their logo (you can see it in the OP
| post thumbnail) all around and were explicitly told not
| to organize an assembly on 36c3.
|
| Regardless, Vincent Canfield decided to come to 36c3 and
| started conflicts somewhere around the Tor, GNUNet and
| some activist/political projects around there, then
| refused to get out when told to do so by orga and called
| the police.
| Foxboron wrote:
| Well, the dead account has some links which I won't
| repost. Feel free to reach out over IRC or email if you
| want other/more links I guess.
|
| From what I gather is that the conflict around the
| website started at 35C3 with the posters and the general
| shitposting. It was pinned to the cock.li assembly and vc
| was then asked to not come back. Which they did 36C3 and
| resulted in the above video.
|
| Whether or not vc knew all of this, or was directly
| involved, I don't know.
| aestetix wrote:
| Where did the C3 crew say the service was fascist?
|
| As far as I understand, he showed up to Congress and did a
| Hitlergrusse (Nazi salute) to their security. In Germany that
| is illegal and arrestable, so he should actually be grateful
| they only kicked him out and did not call the police. Germany
| has very strict laws against video-recording people without
| their consent, so creating this video would be considered
| another crime.
|
| I can't speak for the content of the video itself, but I
| would imagine that most Germans would see "throwing someone
| on the floor" as a reasonable response to making the
| Hitlergrusse.
| [deleted]
| super256 wrote:
| > As far as I understand, he showed up to Congress and did
| a Hitlergrusse (Nazi salute) to their security. In Germany
| that is illegal and arrestable, so he should actually be
| grateful they only kicked him out and did not call the
| police.
|
| This is simply not true. Before the C3 took place, Michael
| required Vincent to remove all the unfunny stuff from his
| website to be able to register an assembly for C3. However,
| Vincent did not agree to this, so he didn't register an
| assembly.
|
| Then, during C3 on the 27th Dec, Vincent sent out a tweet
| that he's on C3, and so he and a few users of his email
| service met informally, but not as a cock.li assembly. It
| wasn't a huge crowd, I think like 5 people(?).
|
| Michael then approached Vincent and said, that he wouldn't
| be allowed on the premise. Vincent then offered to take it
| to the Arbitration Board, which was specifically set up for
| situations like this: When someone experiences
| sexism/racism or discrimination of any kind, they should
| take it to the AB, where the awareness team tries to find a
| mutually agreeable solution. Michael didn't like this
| proposal and just told him to leave within the next 5
| Minutes.
|
| Apparently the short-haired girl, which was following
| Michael, did not want to wait 5 Minutes. That's when
| Vincent sent an audio recording to himself and switched to
| video recording. That's what you see in the first post I
| made.
|
| The phone which Vincent used for recording was seized by
| security. However, confiscating cameras or camera phones is
| the sole responsibility of the police or the bailiff.
| Stewards and security guards are not allowed to do that.
|
| > Germany has very strict laws against video-recording
| people without their consent, so creating this video would
| be considered another crime.
|
| This isn't true either. You are allowed to record if you
| have legitimate interests in recording the current event,
| e.g. when a friend gets knocked down to the floor by other
| people, as the others would be free to leave the scene if
| they really wanted to. However, you are not allowed to
| release the footage to a public forum without the consent
| of the party that displays the helplessness.
| oxnrtr wrote:
| Have you ever re-read your posts and realized how
| incredibly whiny this all sounds?
|
| He tried to start shit and got thrown out. Stop whining.
| super256 wrote:
| I just find it sad that some people come up to this
| thread and straight up lie bc someone sent a link to here
| on IRC.
| oxnrtr wrote:
| Dude, just read the stuff you write. You seem to have
| some axe to grind, but every detail that you seemingly
| "forget" to mention (and is pointed out later) makes you
| look worse and worse.
|
| You and your friend seem to be objectively terrible
| people and I see absolutely no reason why anyone would
| want to deal with you.
|
| And now you can cry as much as you want about how you are
| being victimized, because I really don't care.
| 2pEXgD0fZ5cF wrote:
| > clearly sarcastic domains such as "hitler.rocks" and
| "nuke.africa"
|
| When I visit the page I'm greeted by a banner with fake
| quotes, here is a selection:
|
| > I'm 200% n*ger
|
| > Come fuck with a n*ger. I'm a business man
|
| There is _nothing_ that indicates sarcasm or satire there
| when it comes to all those choices, given that the site
| advertises itself towards 4chan users. At best it 's edgy and
| infantile, at worst it's just the usual racist shit that is
| "funny" only to the people repeating it very loudly over and
| over and over.
|
| Weird how the only flavour of "sarcasm" and "humor" people
| like you and the site owner can come up with is the
| glorification of nazis and making fun of black people.
|
| I wonder who it is you are trying to fool here...
| throw827474737 wrote:
| > clearly sarcastic domains such as...
|
| Not sure where that guy is from (and also dont want to judge
| the story at all),.. BUT there is not much like that here but
| one of the few and also by law forbidden taboos is this. With
| that, you are never clearly sarcastic, the opposite. No
| excuse, sorry.
| asmor wrote:
| He is from the US, but lives in Romania.
|
| For a long time, cock.li was hosted on Hetzner - until a
| bunch of bomb threats to schools in the US originated
| there. There was a fun little bit of government overreach
| involved too, since the german police seized the server
| twice - the first time they only took a single drive
| (probably as advised by Hetzner staff), and then, a week
| later, they demanded the entire server. It's pretty much
| implied that this was at the behest of US authorities,
| since a related FOIA request at the german feds was denied
| with "may cause adverse affects on international relations"
| coffeeblack wrote:
| tpush wrote:
| Nonsense.
| thesaint wrote:
| roastedpeacock wrote:
| Wau Holland. Missed by those who never met him.
|
| I too love a good talk on (e.x exploit research) and longingly
| wonder if in part due to attempts of censorship by companies,
| also the value of exploits if the 'glory times' of such
| presentations are over. Ultimately I respect the CCC for
| providing a platform to discuss difficult problems adjacent to
| technology as well.
| larodi wrote:
| All the we-pay-noone to participate is very weird in 2022 when
| information technology industries are potentially among the
| wealthiest. And particularly when the events are non-free-
| admission.
| lima wrote:
| Agreed in principle, but 37C3 is a volunteer-run event.
| Admission fees are low and (barely) cover expenses.
| larodi wrote:
| Volunteering is a very tricky and shady business. If it was
| not - we'd all be volunteering and getting paid without tax.
| There's a reason for some limits in volunteering laws
| whenever they exist in a country.
|
| I bet the same people running this whole thing are also very
| well paid techies. Not sure about the volunteers though.
|
| And third, not last, the fact something is run by volunteers
| does not change it's nature - it is still a business thing.
| Some expenses are paid for and eventually all the
| subcontractors are paid while the volunteers are not. Not
| fair at all.
| hypfer wrote:
| You're missing the point.
|
| The whole thing is purposefully built like that. There is 0
| interest in having people on stage that do it for the
| money. Instead it is about people that deeply care about a
| topic and want to share knowledge, ideas etc with others.
|
| It is not a regular IT conference. It is not a business
| thing.
| farhaven wrote:
| Actually, there aren't really subcontractors. There _is_ a
| registered company called CCC Veranstaltungs Gmbh (CCC
| Events Inc.) which more-or-less owns a lot of the equipment
| (sound stages, lighting, ...) and nominally rents the
| venues and such, so that if the conference goes bust,
| there's a legal entity that can go bankrupt instead of
| individuals, but that's about it.
|
| Food stalls are not hired by the CCCV GmbH, they pay to be
| there (and in turn get to dictate their prices), video
| streaming and such is handled by FEM e.V. (a non-profit
| that specializes in this kinda stuff) and is not paid
| (except for expenses, I think, but I don't have insights
| into that part of the finances) and truck drivers and such
| are actually volunteers.
|
| "The people running this thing" are also volunteers. They
| do get a bit of money as an exchange for having to take
| unpaid vacations way in advance of the event for organizing
| stuff, but it's a far cry from "well paid". It's more of a
| "here's enough to not go broke on rent and food".
| TEP_Kim_Il_Sung wrote:
| I have it on government authority that taxes are voluntary.
| tgsovlerkhgsel wrote:
| The volunteers range from well paid techies to couchsurfing
| students.
|
| I'm not convinced of your last line. A business is
| typically maximizing profit, which isn't what's happening
| here to my knowledge.
| jon-wood wrote:
| I can see how from the outside you'd think that way. Hacker
| events are very different to big corporate conferences, and
| don't intuitively make sense in a world where almost
| everything that happens is being done so someone can make a
| buck.
|
| Everyone involved is a volunteer, or at the very most
| making significantly less money than they could running
| events of a similar scale in the real world, and they're
| all doing it because there's not really anything quite like
| these events outside of them. There's a distinctly anarchic
| feeling to them, with a great many things that just
| organically happen because someone thought it would be fun,
| and then it got totally out of hand because other people
| latched on to it as well. The Chaos Post is a prime example
| of this, a postal service which is effectively a bunch of
| nerds cosplaying a worldwide postal service - I've known of
| people who addressed postcards to themselves, but at a
| future event on another continent, and they got delivered
| intact.
| patcon wrote:
| Disclaimer: runs free events, where organizers are
| volunteers, in which we're still trying to find sponsorship
| money for small speaker honorariums.
|
| While I'm grateful to ccc organizers and understand that
| things are sometimes clearer and easier without the
| distorting effects of money...
|
| I think defaulting to offering an honorarium to speakers is
| really healthy. The cultural baseline can easily be set to
| that any "financially comfortable" speakers donate it
| straight back without collecting, while only those who need
| it, keep it.
|
| Why? Because speakers with many areas of expertise cannot
| afford to spend time speaking for free. Some really rad
| people can, but just saying that many cannot. And while it's
| maybe not a big deal if there's narrow representation of ppl
| volunteering at the ticket booth, there is a larger loss of
| possibility when cash-poor types of speakers can't afford to
| show up.
|
| Speakers are the bringers of ideas, and who speaks affects
| the _intellectual_ space that an event creates. And it might
| be said that creating that intellectual space is the main
| point of an event. The other motivation is maybe creating a
| new _relational_ space, new relationships between people that
| tend to be fostered and grown around the feeding trough of
| presentation content.
|
| So the "intellectual" is about "what gets broadcast" and
| "relational" is more about "who gets enticed to attend", and
| "which ideas fuck and make new ideas in the conversations
| between those attendees". All of the above flows from the
| speakers, and so I'd argue that it's more important to use
| the powerful magic of money to help certain speakers show up.
|
| I think the sweet spot for starting to experiment with
| honoraria is: low enough to be a bit insulting to those who
| would be driven by the money, but high enough to meaningfully
| cover some costs for someone just trying to get by :)
| em-bee wrote:
| as far as i can tell, the ccc does offer support for travel
| expenses and accommodation if needed
| makeva wrote:
| I understand your point but the Congress is not really a
| typical conference where ideas flow from speakers to
| attendees.
|
| Instead everyone is expected to contribute ideas (and even
| physically as a volunteers)
|
| The talks are actually only a part of the whole things and
| the main track talks (for which this CFP is for I assume)
| are only a part of the talks (the rest are organized by
| assemblies)
|
| It's very different to usual IT conf, even compared to
| FOSDEM.
|
| (Not part of the orga, this is only my understanding as an
| attendee)
| tgsovlerkhgsel wrote:
| This is not an industry conference. This is a hacker
| conference, by the community, for the community. Many people
| involved are students, who really benefit from the admission
| prices being as low as they are, and the cool projects you see
| around the assembly area are so cool because they are from
| tinkerers, people with time (which is often mutually exclusive
| with money), people who do cool stuff.
|
| Paying the speakers would increase ticket prices (though not by
| much), create a "why do they get paid when everybody
| volunteers" effect that would discourage volunteers, and
| ultimately likely lower the quality of the conference.
|
| They make pretty clear that if travel costs are really an
| issue, they'll find a solution.
| thesaint wrote:
| UltimateEdge wrote:
| I wonder why the Congress takes place during the last few days of
| December. There aren't many travel options if you want to get
| back to your country before the new year.
| jimmytidey wrote:
| CCC often reveals new software vulnerabilities. I don't know if
| it's deliberate, but if they reveal those vulnerabilities at
| Christmas, they ruin the holiday of whoever is responsible for
| fixing them - quite likely someone working for a big
| corporation.
| capableweb wrote:
| Or "ruining someone's holiday" is a secondary effect.
| Simplest explanation is that it's easy to get vacation time
| from your "normal" job at that time compared to other times,
| so if you want to make sure as many people can make it as
| possible, those dates are likely to be the best.
| GekkePrutser wrote:
| Except most people that would like to go have family
| commitments around this time. And airports are really busy.
|
| I've never been due to the busy and costly flights thing
| myself.
| capableweb wrote:
| Where were you trying to travel from? Last time I was at
| the congress, most people I talked to arrived by train,
| myself included, even if it took a day of traveling.
| GekkePrutser wrote:
| I'm Dutch but I live in Spain now so by train is not
| really viable.
| Dunedan wrote:
| People associated with the CCC most often do responsible
| disclosure. Therefore you can expect vulnerabilities revealed
| during C3 to be already known in advance to the vendor. AFAIK
| an exception to that are jail breaks, which have quite a
| history of getting announced during C3 without disclosing
| them to the vendor first.
| foepys wrote:
| As somebody else already said, it's perfect for the DACH
| region. Many companies close "between the years" (the 7 days
| between Christmas Eve and New Years) or run on a bare minimum
| staff.
|
| It's easy for most people to take time off then and visit the
| congress.
| black_puppydog wrote:
| It's traditionally and still a very DACH dominated event, for
| better or worse. Travel by regional/interregional trains around
| this time is perfectly fine, and it's a time where it's quite
| easy for a whole big community to synchronize for taking
| vacation.
|
| Remember that this is not the type of Congress where people go
| on paid time. There are no sponsorships and generally no
| commercial interest behind this event, so I think (my guess, I
| have no data to back that up) that most people take vacation
| days and pay their own ticket.
| lucb1e wrote:
| ("DACH" meaning Deutschland, Austria, Chwitzerland, if I'm
| not mistaken; i.e. the main German-speaking region. Not sure
| this is common knowledge outside of people that are in /
| regularly deal with DACH; I only learned of it 2 years after
| moving to Germany, being from the Netherlands.)
| ciex wrote:
| It's a good chance to use your Bildungsurlaub allowance
| (education vacation?) where for 5 days a year you are being
| paid by your employer for educating yourself in a way of your
| choosing. C3 is recognized for that program almost everywhere
| in Germany.
| rsynnott wrote:
| Always assumed it was because no-one else wanted the conference
| centre at that time of year, so it was cheap.
| glogla wrote:
| Leipzig again or back to Hamburg?
| raimue wrote:
| Hamburg, as announced in an earlier blog post.
|
| https://www.ccc.de/en/updates/2022/37-chaos-communication-co...
| farhaven wrote:
| Hamburg, they finally finished renovating the CCH.
| O__________O wrote:
| Links for CCH:
|
| https://www.cch.de/en/
|
| https://wikipedia.org/wiki/Congress_Center_Hamburg
| aintmeit wrote:
| But the chaos created is for whom?
| glogla wrote:
| Wonderfull, looking forward to seeing all the nooks, crannies
| and secret passages again.
| oger wrote:
| Hamburg afaik
| sprash wrote:
| seb1204 wrote:
| I'd like to see some credible sources for this claim please. My
| impression is that individuals involved and associated with the
| CCC are not only experts in their field they often also have
| good understanding of how society is being challenged by
| climate change, deforestation, pollution, urbanisation and
| individual transport.
| sen_armstrong wrote:
| I missed the drama at the time, are you referring to (edit:
| fixed link) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21905761?
| johnny22 wrote:
| and because i followed the clink and clicked the poster link
| I see "This account was suspended following an FBI request.
| Please contact the support team. "
|
| I didn't realize that was a thing.
| capableweb wrote:
| Any user can put that on their own profile, if they feel
| like playing the victim card :)
|
| Their last post was 2021-11-03
| (https://news.ycombinator.com/threads?id=h1x) but a old
| archive of their profile from 2021-01-10 (https://web.archi
| ve.org/web/20210110145033/https://news.ycom...) shows that
| the text was already there, almost a year before their last
| post.
|
| So yeah, seems they put it there themselves :)
| blablabla123 wrote:
| Almost every part of these 2 sentences is factually wrong, as a
| quick Google searches would reveal
| farhaven wrote:
| You mean the CCC that was founded in the rooms of leftist
| newspaper TAZ at a table that was stolen from the anarcho-left
| commune "Kommune 1"?
|
| If you don't understand that the CCC is and has always been
| anti-fascist, you're way off the path, friend.
|
| Edit: forgot to mention: any notion that Antifa is a state-
| organized thing is misguided at best and wrong and in bad faith
| at worst. It's just not true.
| anthk wrote:
| You can even read TAZ officially under the Gopher protocol :p
| sprash wrote:
| farhaven wrote:
| Who is this "Antifa" that you talk about? Are they in the
| room with us right now?
|
| Calling the CCC a fascist organization is a pretty hot take
| that I haven't come across yet, I'll give you that, but as
| they say "extraordinary claims require extraordinary
| proof".
| google234123 wrote:
| If you work at a large company and live in a large city
| then there are probably some in the room with you. Just
| spend a little time on twitter, people are proud to self
| identify as such.
| [deleted]
| pessimizer wrote:
| > Edit: forgot to mention: any notion that Antifa is a state-
| organized thing is misguided at best and wrong and in bad
| faith at worst. It's just not true.
|
| I'm old enough and lefty enough to remember when antifa was
| Anti-Racist Action, and primarily skinheads concerned about
| Nazi skinheads. Glenn Beck really twisted the rightists'
| sense of history.
| formerly_proven wrote:
| Implying the German state of all things runs Antifa is at
| best risible. While justice officers and LEOs will always
| trend right of society, simply due to self-section based on
| the inherent authoritarianism of justice and LE in
| particular, the German security services have done a
| spectacularly bad job (way beyond Hanlon's razor) at
| preventing and prosecuting right-wing extremism, crime and
| terrorism for almost the entire existence of the BRD. The
| idea that the same security services who systematically
| covered for right-wing criminals run Antifa is just... I
| don't even know how you get that idea. Besides, the German
| police and justice system has been prosecuting Antifa and a
| large number of other left-wing organizations since always.
| atoav wrote:
| > a state sponsored left wing terrorist organization
|
| [citation needed]
|
| I live next to a gathering point of leftist/antifa groups in
| Germany, and given the fact they are "state sponsered" they
| happen to get a lot of needlessly violent police response. I'd
| imagine a state which "sponsored" a group would protect them
| from the state's executive. Also the CCC publishes
| _consistently_ statements that oppose the current German
| governments plans regarding internet and surveilance. What is
| the purpose of a state sponsoring a group that ridicules their
| badly thought out policies on a regular basis? If I were a
| state I would not sponsor people that constantly show my
| policies to be of farcially bad quality, but hey, maybe this
| makes sense in your world.
|
| Next we could go for the term "terrorist organization". In
| Germany we have a Verfassungsschutzbericht ("Report of the
| Federal Office for the Protection of the Constitution") which
| lists all the violent or terrorist acts on a yearly basis. The
| Federal Office for the Protection of the Constitution is and
| has been known to be overyly critical of left wing
| organizations (so much for "state sponsored" antifa) while
| being blind to right wing violence like a literal murder series
| (NSU complex), also because the early officers working at that
| organization had Nazi roots. STILL the report of that
| organization shows that right wing terrorism is magnitudes more
| common and deadly than any left wing violence. So if Antifa is
| a terrorist group, they are not very good at terrorism, because
| they don't seem to have a lot of impact in the real physical
| world that anybody can measure. Leftist violence is mostly
| against property or rightwing opponents. Right wing violence is
| against intellectuals, writers, journalists, migrants,
| politicians and of course leftists. Or you know, maybe the
| whole terrorism label is a bit far fetched for what I perceived
| as a more or less disorganized mess of leftist splintergroups
| full of edgy teens.
|
| So we have a wrong claim of state sponsorship and a wrong claim
| of "terrorism", which mean I would not be too confident in the
| third point you are making there.
|
| The CCC certainly leans left. So what? A lot of educational
| elite groups in Central Europe do. That is quite normal. If you
| were to ask the CCC they'd probably argue that in the US
| hackers are surprisingly comfy to be that close to the
| intelligence community and the state (which is precisely what
| you accuse the CCC of by being "state sponsored").
| atoav wrote:
| Funny how throughout my over 11k karma points the only
| comments that get downvoted without reply or clarification
| are ones that underline slightly left leaning viewpoints with
| facts.
|
| I'd love to know the factually wrong parts of what I say, so
| I can avoid saying it in the future and maybe even adjust my
| world view accordingly. This happens with many issues I
| discuss, but when it comes to (on the european political
| spectrum) slightly left leaning topics there will always be
| certain people that downvote based on political orientation
| alone.
| capableweb wrote:
| I fall in a similar camp.
|
| I think generally what we see as "slightly left leaning"
| ends up being "extreme left leaning" seen from the eyes of
| the US, as "center" politics in Europe would still be
| considered "left" in the US.
|
| Basically, the baseline of the entire country leans so far
| right, that anything outside of the right seems at least
| slightly "leftists" in US politics.
| throw827474737 wrote:
| All true, no worries. You cannot change world views.. to me
| it is always and everytime again really amazing how much
| some even generally liberal people, especially in the US,
| despite sometimes non-arguable facts.. as soon as it is a
| bit left (or not even that, just labelling it as such) it
| just either cannot be, or must be bad.
| oger wrote:
| In addition the CCC is a regular contributor to parliamentary
| hearings - be it investigatory committees or in the context
| of new or revised legislation. They are an active part of
| society and their voice is being heard.
| johannes1234321 wrote:
| > regular contributor to parliamentary hearings
|
| And typically invited by the opposition, not the governing
| parties ...
| oynqr wrote:
| The replies to this are already good. Everything between
| "deboonked" to "always has been".
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