[HN Gopher] ThinkPad's 30th Anniversary: An Insider's Perspective
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ThinkPad's 30th Anniversary: An Insider's Perspective
Author : ingve
Score : 117 points
Date : 2022-10-06 06:40 UTC (2 days ago)
(HTM) web link (www.forbes.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.forbes.com)
| scrlk wrote:
| Sadly they don't make them like they used to. Keyboards and
| repairability comes to mind.
|
| I don't mind the chiclet keycaps, but Lenovo really ruined the
| keyboard when they went from the 7 row layout [0] to the current
| 6 row layout [1].
|
| Each new generation of ThinkPad reduces the travel distance of
| the keyboard - they've gone from 2.5 mm in the T420 (2011) to 1.5
| mm in the T14 G3 (2022). 1 mm doesn't sound like on paper, but
| you immediately notice the difference if you switch between them.
| I don't understand why Lenovo doesn't add an extra 1 mm to the
| thickness of their laptops, at least it would restore the
| reputation for typing feel on ThinkPads.
|
| For repairability: soldered WLAN cards, 1 SO-DIMM slot or
| soldered RAM on T/X series machines (HP offers 2x SO-DIMM slots
| on most EliteBooks) are a step backwards.
|
| USB-C charging sounds good at first, but the ports start to wear
| out after 2 years and become loose. They are soldered to the
| motherboard, so good luck repairing them if you aren't good at
| micro soldering.
|
| [0]
| https://www.notebookcheck.net/fileadmin/_migrated/pics/t420_...
|
| [1]
| https://www.notebookcheck.net/fileadmin/_processed_/f/5/csm_...
| faeriechangling wrote:
| When I actually do a typing test of speed and accuracy, the
| only keyboards I do badly on are small keyboards for <12"
| devices, and long travel keyboards (As in desktop mechanical
| keyboards). I've been hearing about how essential long travel
| is for so long, I've owned an old Thinkpad, I've owned a new
| Thinkpad, and I'm not sure what it is about travel that makes a
| better keyboard if it doesn't decrease errors or increase
| speed. In fact since it takes longer to bottom out and register
| an input, one could make an argument high travel was a
| downside, but I don't see this reflected in the measurements
| I've taken of myself.
|
| Losing 2 discrete ram slots sucks, but honestly the lack of
| expandability is far more of a downside than the lack of
| reparability. I always save a few bucks by buying memory
| aftermarket where I can, so for me a computer with discrete ram
| slots is just a cheaper computer. The swap to USB-C was
| fantastic, it made chargers which previously cost more than a
| hundred dollars a commodity and lowered prices and improved
| reusability, I've saved LOTS of money off that standardisation.
|
| I think the most infuriating modern trend to me is actually is
| soldering the SSD thus leaving a computers data hostage to a
| failure elsewhere in the computer. A computers data and the
| rest of the computer should be separable. Thankfully it doesn't
| seem Lenovo is soldering the SSD yet.
| legitster wrote:
| I'm currently typing this from my T450s. My perspective:
|
| I love the chiclets. They did a good job. The keys are
| perfectly shaped to reduce accidental presses.
|
| > I don't understand why Lenovo doesn't add an extra 1 mm to
| the thickness of their laptops
|
| Because they are already market leaders on key travel. Why aim
| for perfection when you are already ahead of everyone else.
|
| I agree that I don't like the direction they are heading
| towards USB0-C and non removeable batteries, but at least for
| the mid-model years I think they did a good job balancing which
| components were replaceable.
| squarefoot wrote:
| > I don't understand why Lenovo doesn't add an extra 1 mm to
| the thickness of their laptops, at least it would restore the
| reputation for typing feel on ThinkPads.
|
| Because, after years of advertising made by designers and not
| by technical people, for most potential buyers more thin = more
| modern so to remain in the game they have to adapt to the most
| idiotic trend today: make devices thin as credit cards no
| matter how this would impact their usability, battery life,
| robustness, repairability etc.
| boppo1 wrote:
| all they gotta do is make an ad like this:
|
| person sits down at new thinkpad laptop
|
| "It's so... thicc"
|
| Narrator: _we added an extra millimeter..._
|
| starts clacking on the keys and makes an O-face
|
| *...for your pleasure."
|
| the market is absolutely out there, zoomers love their
| mechanical keyboards.
| least wrote:
| Wanting thinner and lighter devices isn't some sort of weird
| desire only non-technical people want. Computers have
| gradually miniaturized from something that fits in a
| warehouse to something that fits into a room in your office
| into something that fits on people's desks into something
| that fits in your pocket. And subsequently, the skills
| required to repair said devices ends up changing. I won't say
| it's easier or harder, though I would say through-hole
| components are much easier to swap out than SMDs. Yet I don't
| really see you complaining about that.
|
| So no, striving for thinness is not idiotic. It follows the
| same principles of miniaturization of all components in PCs.
| It also changes the skillset required to work on the devices,
| but that's not really all that problematic.
|
| > the most idiotic trend today: make devices thin as credit
| cards no matter how this would impact their usability,
| battery life, robustness, repairability etc.
|
| They're not, though. Laptops are by definition a compromise
| product. You compromise on various things to afford yourself
| more portability. If you want a laptop that's easier to
| repair, they _have those._ You want something with more
| power? They have those too, but it 's going to be less
| portable and have less battery life.
|
| Your real complaint is that they don't make a Thinkpad that
| matches your own set of acceptable compromises and tradeoffs
| in a portable device. That's totally valid but has nothing to
| do with your asinine complaints about thinness.
| FridayoLeary wrote:
| I don't think that's true anymore since apple is reversing
| that trend with their new iphones being their thickest ever.
| The latest stupid trend seems to be to treat a device as a
| camera with smart features attached.
| least wrote:
| I fail to see how this is a stupid trend. Most people want
| to have a camera on their person always and smartphones are
| that camera. They've completely killed off the point and
| shoot market and mostly the camcorder market as well.
| Seeing genuine improvement on what _is_ a family 's camera
| year over year is welcome.
| FridayoLeary wrote:
| It comes at the cost of the rest of the phone. The latest
| pro max whatever camera bump is _huge_. Especially as
| this comes after a decade of thinner phones being the
| ultimate goal of designers.
| thorncorona wrote:
| The camera is why I, and many others, buy a new iphone.
| So it makes sense I guess /shrug.
| stirfish wrote:
| I've had enough of these impossible beauty standards.
|
| I'd take a smart phone that's 3x as thick (thicc) if it had
| 3x the battery life, but I currently settle for a case that's
| also a battery.
|
| When my T420 finally dies (if that's even possible), I'm
| hoping the Framework laptop is chunky enough to take its
| place
| j5155 wrote:
| It exists: https://www.theverge.com/circuitbreaker/2019/2/2
| 6/18241117/e...
| JamesAdir wrote:
| One marketing campaign can change it in no time. Maybe not
| for the entire industry but certainly for Lenovo.
| jpalomaki wrote:
| As longtme Lenovo user I sometimes wonder if they are designing
| for users or for corporate buyers.
| bluedino wrote:
| The TN 1366x768 screens they used for years say "corporate
| buyers"
| rvense wrote:
| I heard they started actually talking to their users, and
| most of their users are office workers who'd rather have
| McBooks.
| jagger27 wrote:
| > they've gone from 2.5 mm in the T420 (2011) to 1.5 mm in the
| T14 G3 (2022). 1 mm doesn't sound like on paper, but you
| immediately notice the difference if you switch between them
|
| Absolutely correct. For context, typical Cherry MX mechanical
| keyboard switches have a total travel around 4mm. We're very
| sensitive to switch height.
| peteradio wrote:
| Have an gen1 x13 AMD running Pop OS! which is supported well in
| the latest kernels (early on there were issues with sound). Its
| a great machine to develop on with no hardware problems yet,
| although I'm only at the 2.5 year mark.
| MeltedVoltage wrote:
| I have found that it is often dust in the port that makes them
| feel loose. Cleaning them with a little brush (like the ones
| that come with an electric shaver) made a lot of difference for
| me.
| heeen2 wrote:
| The port on my phone started to feel loose to the point where
| charging became an issue. The dust and lint was compressed so
| much that nothing short of a steel needle helped.
| brk wrote:
| I think I may have been the first unofficial Thinkpad laptop
| repair person. When the Thinkpad 700 came out, I was working for
| IBM managing the PC side of a regional repair center in SE
| Michigan. About a month or so before their official release,
| several IBM exec's had production units, and a few of them were
| already being dropped or broken. It started with a unit in my
| region, which I was able to repair, and then word got out that
| there was an internal employee who could fix these things, and
| other units started showing up to my attention via FedEx and
| intercompany mail. One or two via private plane (in those days we
| had private planes and pilots on call to make high priority parts
| runs for certain national customers with IBM service contracts).
|
| At the time, the Thinkpad 700 was considered to be a crazy dense
| and delicate machine to most of the repair guys. Now, you compare
| it to a modern laptop and it looks absolutely trivial to take it
| apart.
| ilamont wrote:
| In the mid-1990s, I bought a used IBM ThinkPad 701 in Hong
| Kong. Ten years before "netbooks," this wonderful little laptop
| had a very unique approach to compact size: A "butterfly"
| keyboard that unfolded when you opened the laptop. There are
| some photos and historical information about the 701 here:
|
| http://renaissancechambara.jp/2012/04/26/ibm-thinkpad-701/
|
| Supposedly, the design was inspired by a black bento box.
| Although primitive by today's standards, it was a solid little
| laptop that served me well for the tasks I was engaged in at
| the time -- writing, Web surfing, learning HTML, and playing
| Doom.
|
| In the late 1990s, I had a house fire. No one was injured, but
| the butterfly ThinkPad was burned, the exterior case charred
| and partially melted. There was data on it that I wanted,
| including a manuscript. I brought it to the local IBM repair
| center in Taipei. Two young techs were at the service desk, and
| hardly battered an eye when I took it out of a plastic bag.
| They got a small electric saw, cut open the case, removed the
| keyboard, and took out the HD which looked intact. They
| attempted to connect it to their diagnostic machine but it
| wouldn't read, unfortunately. But I really respected their
| attempt.
| rejectfinite wrote:
| I dont have any nostalgia for Thinkpads but I like the laptops.
| My first is a T490s I got from work as a work machine and it
| really is great.
|
| Still the best keyboard in a laptop I have used.
|
| Dial down the Windows power settings and the fan is totally off
| on idle/low load.
|
| About 7-8h battery life doing heavy web browsing / Citrix VDI
|
| Looking into it I would have liked a maxed T480 instead so I
| could max the RAM and SSD on it aftermarket actually...
|
| When/if I need a personal laptop Ill get a Thinkpad for sure.
| de_keyboard wrote:
| If Lenovo guaranteed Ubuntu support out-of-the-box for the
| ThinkPad Carbon models (and I mean _proper support_ , like no
| configuring, finger-print reader working etc.) then I wouldn't
| have switched to macOS.
| alberth wrote:
| 4:3 display.
|
| Not mentioned, I really miss the taller 4:3 displays.
| lvl102 wrote:
| The old school pre-Lenovo keyboards are the best ever made.
| Nothing even comes close to that feeling.
| ak217 wrote:
| SK-8855 (https://sharktastica.co.uk/wiki?id=lenovo8855) is my
| biggest productivity tool. I'm probably about twice as
| productive with this keyboard than without it.
|
| They resell for $150+ on ebay. I dread the day when my supply
| runs out.
| lvl102 wrote:
| I've since switched to HHKBs and they've served me well!
| neilv wrote:
| I'm typing this comment on a T60 keyboard, transplanted into a
| T500.
|
| IIRC, Lenovo was manufacturing the T60 for IBM, but, by Lenovo
| T500 time, they seemed to be skimping on the keyboard backing,
| causing it to flex.
| throwaway12245 wrote:
| Old school Think pads had the best keyboards.
| ThePhysicist wrote:
| Just got a new T14 (3. gen Intel, 14'') for my personal computing
| needs, while also using a 16'' Macbook Pro M1 for work. I have to
| say the T14 is a really nice machine and feels quite modern. The
| variant with the 4k screen is comparable in quality to the
| Macbook screen, though it only has 60 Hz (which isn't very
| noticeable I find). The 16:10 ratio is also quite nice, glad this
| came back into fashion. The touchscreen is a nice gimmick but
| mostly useful in Windows, Linux supports it but without multi-
| touch it seems (or maybe I didn't look in the right place), so
| it's not very useful. The only thing that's disappointing is the
| runtime, even with the larger 50Wh battery I only get 3-4 hours
| of usage out of it, while my Macbook seems to last forever. I
| think the Macbook uses less than 7W when idling, whereas the
| Thinkpad's value is in the 14W range it seems. So yeah, Lenovo
| has still some catching up to do but it seems they're going in
| the right direction again.
| jpm_sd wrote:
| I have a W550s that I've been using for work since 2015. Still
| going strong! In that time, I have:
|
| - replaced the battery - upgraded to 1TB SSD - upgraded from 8GB
| to 16GB of RAM
|
| Never had a laptop from Dell or Asus that was this rugged. It's
| huge, but the screen, touchpad and keyboard are all rock solid.
|
| Of course, it's old enough that it has no USB-C host ports. VGA
| available for your convenience though!
|
| https://www.laptopmag.com/reviews/laptops/lenovo-thinkpad-w5...
| GekkePrutser wrote:
| I wonder if there'll be a 30th anniversary edition like there was
| at the 25th
| bogantech wrote:
| Yep there's a 30th edition X1 Carbon though the only difference
| is the sticker and the box
|
| https://www.lenovo.com/us/en/p/laptops/thinkpad/thinkpadx1/t...
| AdmiralAsshat wrote:
| Can't imagine who's buying that at $4000. Your average
| Thinkpad enthusiast probably paid less for their last ten
| ThinkPads combined than that.
| rejectfinite wrote:
| Its 40% off tho.
| projektfu wrote:
| Thinkpad pricing like it's 1994.
| apricot wrote:
| Not even a proper keyboard like they did for the 25th
| anniversary. Boo.
| GekkePrutser wrote:
| Yeah that's really what I was hoping for when I asked the
| question.
| JamesAdir wrote:
| My Thinkpad X220 still going strong, and I miss a computer I can
| open up, replace or upgrade what's needed in an easy way. The
| form factor is good enough and I don't need or want this inch
| thin laptops just because one company decided it's suits them and
| fashionable.
|
| Unfortunately Lenovo doesn't really keep the brand and in the
| gazillion models they have on stock, there isn't one that can
| replace my X220 in convenience of use and long term usability.
| There is a market for this laptops and as long as they ignore it
| they will just lose more and more market share.
| ct0 wrote:
| I have an x220 in my line up of older machines. My newest is an
| X1 Carbon gen6 aka x1c6. I was surprised how quickly I was able
| to open the bottom of it up install a new wifi6 card. About 5
| screws and the back is off and another screw holding in the
| wifi card. I dont think the x220 is that fast.
| calvinmorrison wrote:
| I don't know if it's just the x220 but every time I open it I
| seem to have at least one left over screw on my desk.
| jeffbee wrote:
| To replace the WLAN card in an X220, you must remove all the
| screws on the bottom of the case, the keyboard, and the palm
| rest. It's not trivial but anyone can do it.
|
| Unfortunately it would be largely pointless since the X220
| has an allowlist for PCIe cards, and I'm sure it does not
| include any modern wifi devices.
| neilv wrote:
| I upgraded the WiFi cards in my X200 units by installing
| Coreboot, which has no PCIe allowlist.
| https://www.neilvandyke.org/coreboot/ I don't know the
| state of Coreboot support for X220, and the entire process
| can be a headache, but it might be an option.
|
| I understand some people instead use modified stock Lenovo
| BIOS to defeat the PCIe allowlist.
| [deleted]
| spaniard89277 wrote:
| If the frame.work laptops get trackpoint Ill say goodbye to
| Lenovo. Until then I see no replacement.
|
| We'll see how long my x260 lasts.
| smnplk wrote:
| Checkout Novena, where you can use Thinkpad keyboard.
|
| https://www.crowdsupply.com/sutajio-kosagi/novena
|
| I also once saw a german butique laptop maker, that makes
| this thicc laptops where every part is customizable and has
| oldschool thinkpad style keyboard. I just can't remember the
| barand name.
| commoner wrote:
| The feature request for a TrackPoint option on the Framework
| laptop is right here:
|
| https://community.frame.work/t/any-chance-of-trackpoint/1026
| spaniard89277 wrote:
| I'm aware of that thread, but they're basically saying they
| won't do it. So I'm still trapped with Thinkpads.
| nixcraft wrote:
| Lenovo ruined the ThinkPad reputation. They try so hard with
| unwanted features from Apple. If I need those features, I will
| get MacBook Air or Pro. The legendary brand, once known for
| reliability, now comes with RAM stuck to the motherboard. Not
| to mention overheating and a weird bug for Linux power
| management. The best ThinkPads are older ones. You can get them
| from eBay and install Linux on them. The newer ones are not
| worth my money and time. YMMV.
| criddell wrote:
| Nobody is buying a Macbook _because_ RAM is soldered in.
| Nobody, not even Apple fans, see soldered ram as a feature.
|
| Lenovo is trying to stand out selling what is basically a
| commodity device and that's hard to do. They are stuck buying
| the same parts and software as lots of other Windows OEMs.
| apricot wrote:
| Same here. My blood pressure rises every time I have to type on
| a laptop that isn't my x220. Please give us laptops with real
| keyboards.
| omar_alt wrote:
| Yes I have used the old usb sk-8855 and even bought the Tex
| Shinobi mechanical keyboard. I still prefer the feel of
| typing and using an x220 over anything else. When a client
| sends me a dedicated machine to work on I still get round
| this by installing VNC server and controlling it on a X220
| keyboard
| lallysingh wrote:
| I've got an x1 yoga (and w520) but my next is a framework.
| EamonnMR wrote:
| I just replaced my x220 workhorse with an x280. Grabbed a
| cheapo referb and had to replace a single busted key. So far so
| good and it's far more solid than it looks.
| mhb wrote:
| I got an X1 about a year ago because I thought it would be a
| satisfactory replacement for an X220. The screen, sound and
| battery life are definitely big improvements, but the
| Trackpoint never worked well and the ridiculously thin keyboard
| was a real disappointment. When a few keys stopped working
| (after ~ 1 year), I improvised with a wireless Mac keyboard. It
| would be nice to get the keyboard working but it looks like
| that involves many tricky steps and very tiny screws and I
| resent having to fix something that is not pleasing to begin
| with.
|
| I realized that the X1's great display, battery life and
| keyboard didn't make me as happy as the X220's amazing keyboard
| and operational Trackpoint. So I found a replacement battery
| which looked like it wouldn't catch on fire and I'm back to the
| X220. My new adventure is figuring out how to move Office 2019
| from the old computer to the new one.
| jeffbee wrote:
| The X220 was for many long-time ThinkPad users the last good
| one. It had real keycaps and no trackpad. Too bad about the
| display, since the X220 was during the era that Lenovo was
| gaslighting buyers about how IPS panels simply could not be
| procured on the open market, right before Apple showed them to
| be liars. The X220 display is truly ghastly.
|
| Like some other X-series enthusiasts I consider the X61 Tablet
| with the AFFS panel to have been the pinnacle of the series.
| calvinmorrison wrote:
| This is probably my biggest pain point with my X220. 1366x768
| isn't enough!
| numpad0 wrote:
| X1 Nano seems fine, only it costs like a proper ThinkPad.
| jeffbee wrote:
| It's nice that it is thin and light, but the cost is the
| short-travel 6-row chiclet keyboard and the almost unusable
| flat mouse buttons.
| boppo1 wrote:
| the x220 has a trackpad, but it's kind of an afterthought.
| It's disabled on my machine.
| pengaru wrote:
| The X230 is nearly identical physically, and you can swap the
| X220 keyboard onto it.
|
| Advantage being 3rd-gen/HD4000 igpu which is Vulkan capable,
| not available on the X220. This difference makes the X230 far
| more practical in terms of modern graphics
| development/environments.
| jeffbee wrote:
| TIL. Honestly it looks like you'd need to do some grinding
| to get the 220 keyboard into the 230? But that's cool, I
| did not know.
|
| https://download.lenovo.com/Images/Parts/45N2211/1.jpg
|
| https://download.lenovo.com/Images/Parts/04X1345/12.jpg
| 369548684892826 wrote:
| Also after the X230, the next few generations of intel CPUs
| that thinkpads used really focused on low power over
| performance. So because of that it performs like much
| younger laptops.
| hericium wrote:
| IBM's ThinkPads lasted to this day without having issues.
|
| My Lenovo ThinkPad T14s AMD has multiple dead pixels, enter and
| backspace keys not working at all and completely fucked up USB
| bridge, resetting devices all the time which results in
| unsolicited clicks and drag'n'drop or screen selection being
| unavailable both using mouse and touchpad.
|
| "Business laptop" my ass. It's a disgrace to the ThinkPad brand
| what Lenovo sells.
| mburee wrote:
| I have the same model (gen 1 at least) and don't have any such
| issues, for what it's worth.
| leeoniya wrote:
| P14s Gen2 (Ryzen 7 PRO 5850U, 4k matte/calibrated display), no
| issues at all. did have to swap the mediatek Wifi card for an
| Intel AX210, (could have been early driver issues in linux
| kernel tho, but maybe not...cloning a big git repo perma-
| disconnected wifi in linux and bluescreened Win10)
|
| i think the T14 is equivalent, but either they didn't offer the
| 4k display or AMD with that model when i was ordering. their
| model naming is sadistic.
| sbuk wrote:
| I have the same laptop. Keyboard squeaks, USB-C port doesn't
| hold the adapter in place - falls out all the time. Battery
| life is appalling for a 2022 model laptop. It runs hot all
| the time, like burn my legs hot - I cannot work with it on my
| lap. That's probably related to the OS (Windows 11 'Pro').
| Feels cheap and plasticky for the amount it cost. Thank
| goodness it's supplied by work and I didn't buy it. Not my
| first experience with Lenovo, but not great.
|
| Edit: The trackpad is quite literally the worst I've every
| used - at times it's completely unresponsive.
| leeoniya wrote:
| interesting.
|
| i'll agree on battery life, mine is mostly on AC power
| (used as workstation) and i never bothered with
| https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/Laptop_Mode_Tools but i
| hear it makes a huge difference, the 4k display on this
| doesn't help.
|
| my keyboard is okay (they're easy and cheap to swap, maybe
| try another one), but i do hear some subtle electrical
| noise from the mainboard when it's "doing stuff". i don't
| use the trackpad at all and generally hate all trackpads
| for any prolonged use -- a compact bluetooth mouse is the
| way to go (i use Logitech MX Anywhere).
|
| i don't use the use USB ports much except a USB-C for an
| external NVME, no issues with it or the others when i've
| had to use them.
|
| i opted for the integrated card reader. unfortunately only
| micro-sd is available and the latching spring is too stiff
| and too deep (so the card sits flush) and is basically
| impossible to insert or remove without a paperclip or
| credit card to push it into place.
|
| but this 4k calibrated display is amazing compared to what
| thinkpads always came with, even their 1440p matte IPS
| options were garbage.
| sbuk wrote:
| Mine came with the 1440p matte IPS, which I can concur is
| utter garbage! Previously, I had an x280. The USB-C,
| battery and touchpad all had issues, but it was a
| considerably better machine. "Business" laptops seem to
| be a crap-shoot to me.
| ruffrey wrote:
| Second this. The company I work for had countless issues with
| this model. Stuck keys, heat, stuck drag and drop, touchpad
| unclickable at top.
| gruez wrote:
| >My Lenovo ThinkPad T14s AMD has multiple dead pixels, enter
| and backspace keys not working at all
|
| Sounds like valid reasons to RMA it. Why haven't you done that
| yet?
| bluedino wrote:
| Today's ThinkPads may not have all the same features as the
| classic ThinkPads, but they are still, by far, the best laptops
| you can buy. Dell and HP might be made of the same components but
| they pale in quality when you compare the whole package, case,
| keyboard, build quality...
| rcarmo wrote:
| I see a lot of nostalgia in the comments. Besides my MacBook, I
| have both an IdeaPad (Flex 5) and a ThinkPad X1 Carbon (the
| latter one work assigned).
|
| I have been using ThinkPads for almost as long as MacBooks, and I
| find the modern Thinkpad keyboard much nicer than the T or X
| series, since the longer travel gave me RSI, and the newer
| keyboards are much, much quieter. I can switch between my
| MacBook, the X1 and the Yoga without any significant decrease in
| accuracy (other than modifier key placement) or impact, and
| although the feel is different, they all feel pretty great to me.
|
| (I will not mention the hideous MacBook keyboards of the next-to-
| last series... Those were just bad.)
|
| Quality-wise, I do notice the Yoga is a bit mushier (like the
| Logitech K380 I am typing this in now, but with less travel), but
| the X1 is every bit as good as the MacBook's.
|
| Same goes for trackpads. X1 (using Windows 11 drivers) and
| MacBook are roughly equivalent, Yoga slightly less smooth but
| still OK.
|
| (I don't use the TrackPoint because it too makes my RSI flare up
| - although I was an avid user for decades, if I use it for more
| than a day my index tendon starts stinging noticeably)
|
| Lenovo does cut some corners, though, and with the Yoga and the
| X1 beside one another the differences in build quality and screen
| are evident (the X1 has a great HIDPI one, with good brightness
| and color accuracy, while the Yoga has a chalkboard).
|
| But compared to most other PC laptops I've used (except maybe
| some Surface models), modern ThinkPads are still great.
| naetius wrote:
| http://archive.today/Mj0LO
| grapescheesee wrote:
| When I was in college I bought several bulk for part thinkpads.
| X200, x200s, T400s, x60, and others. Was able to rebuild all of
| them. Wonderfully engineered, durable like nothing else, typing
| on them is a treat.
|
| Stated playing with coreboot on them, and libreboot got me more
| into soldering and software.
|
| I wish they would bring back a real keyboard. I travel with a
| mechanical keyboard, they are so much more enjoyable and
| productive.
| zac23or wrote:
| I used a ThinkPad between 2010 and 2012. For me it's a normal
| machine with nothing special. I don't understand the cult status.
| rejectfinite wrote:
| Compared to HP and Dell they are the best. Still. Not to
| mention something like Acer, Asus, Razer or MSI.
|
| For business mind you. They are not "gaming laptops"
| kewrkewm53 wrote:
| I still use a T520 from 2011 for hobby projects, picked it for
| 100 euros a while ago. Just gotta love the keyboard travel, I
| don't think anything available new today comes close. The 1080p
| screen is perfectly fine for programming, no complains about
| performance either with i7, SSD and 16GB of RAM as I don't do
| anything super intensive. Only thing that really sucks is the
| aftermarket battery.
| qbasic_forever wrote:
| My first one was a X30 in the early 2000s when I was a computer
| science student in college. I got it for a student price well
| under MSRP and couldn't believe how well a machine could be
| built. It was an amazing machine that was ahead of its time
| trying to be an ultralight portable with a 12" screen and no CD-
| ROM (an unheard of omission on a laptop of that era). It was
| perfect for taking anywhere and it ran Debian and later Ubuntu
| (version 2!) just fine. I still miss that machine, it was
| perfect.
| jtwaleson wrote:
| I've been a bit of a Thinkpad fanatic ever since my dad got a
| T42p somewhere in 2004. I have been on Thinkpads since 2006. I
| bought old ones on eBay and now have a collection of about 15
| machines. The 700c, two butterfly keyboard 701cs, the 240 and a
| lot more. I'm currently on a T495s.
|
| From my experience I can say that the "old IBM machines were
| reliable and well constructed" is not true. They were bulky and
| over time, everything breaks. Especially the heavy stuff as bulky
| things take so much more wear & tear. The newer machines are much
| thinner and lighter and still very good. At least the T and X
| lines. I exclusively buy Thinkpads for my team and have been very
| happy with them.
|
| The only thing I really miss is the thinklight. Not super useful,
| but it was just so cool.
|
| Edit: I always buy barely used machines of about 2 years old,
| this seems to be the most cost effective.
| tannhaeuser wrote:
| Idk, the Thinkpad design itself gets in the way of longevity
| IME: the extra touchpad buttons collect dust much faster than
| Apple-style bodies without unnecessary apertures and then start
| to hang, not to mention they're smaller and much worse than
| both XPS let alone Apple ones.
| GolfPopper wrote:
| "Everything breaks", but my X220 is readily repairable. It's a
| veritable Laptop of Theseus at this point, with the only
| original parts being the LCD rear cover, hinges, and base cover
| assembly.
|
| I stick with it, both because I dislike modern ultra-
| thin/ultralight laptops (, and because I personally find
| chicklet keyboards completely unusable. (Aftermarket
| replacements for the keyboard aren't as good as originals, but
| they're still better than chicklets.)
| jtwaleson wrote:
| Haha, I did not include the X220. It's great. With the bulky
| stuff I meant the real IBM ThinkPads from before 2005.
| Although 2000-2005 was pretty good too, before that most
| machines were still really heavy.
| wildzzz wrote:
| I used the thinklight a lot in college when I'd want to do
| homework in bed with the lights down low. You could both read
| papers and see your keyboard easily. The backlit keyboard
| really killed off the thinklight as I'm sure that was the
| primary purpose of it. I had an X61 tablet, X200 tablet, and a
| beefy T420 I used in college. They all got beat up in my
| backpack, anything plastic around the edges was cracked but
| they all performed dutifully. I only replaced my X61 because I
| finally had to use 64bit software for school. The T420 was too
| heavy to carry around all day and I wanted the tablet feature
| for homework so I bought the used X61. I still use my decade
| old T420 but I really wish I had sprung for the high density
| display as websites think I'm using a mobile device at
| 1366x768. There are ways to upgrade but I don't think I love my
| old Thinkpad that much to put in the effort.
| jeffbee wrote:
| My nostalgia for the ThinkLight is not for the light itself,
| which was all but useless, but for a past where there were
| things outside your computer that you might want to read. Now
| everything is behind the screen.
| helf wrote:
| I actually miss the thinklight. I used it a ton on my units
| that came with it. It was very useful imo
| cannam wrote:
| > From my experience I can say that the "old IBM machines were
| reliable and well constructed" is not true. They were bulky and
| over time, everything breaks.
|
| Too right. I know the T40 series Thinkpads quite well (the
| 2004-5 era) and they're not very robust at all. Pick one up
| from the front edge and it'll just bend - the edges of the palm
| rest crack first, then the traces lift from the motherboard and
| the USB ports stop working. Back then it was common knowledge
| that you shouldn't pick up a laptop from the front edge.
| Nowadays that's no big deal.
|
| The T60 series (2006-7) hugely improved chassis rigidity but
| lost out in keyboard quality and were noisier and a bit
| chunkier in profile. Both series were fantastic laptops and are
| still delightful to use, but they had obvious limitations and
| the changes made by Lenovo since then are not all unreasonable.
| mkoryak wrote:
| The T42p is one of the best laptops ever made (in my opinion).
|
| I saved for months and bought one using a friend's IBM employee
| discount.
|
| I remember thinking that I wouldn't need to ever buy another
| laptop again.
|
| I still have it and it works fine. I wrote this on it.
|
| Edit: and there is another java update!!
| cylinder714 wrote:
| What operating system are you running, if I may ask?
| mattl wrote:
| Java Update makes me assume Windows of some kind?
| mkoryak wrote:
| Windows 7 ultimate on 1500mb ram
| causi wrote:
| Separate mouse buttons are such a better experience than a
| clickpad, though. It's enough I always 3D-print some button
| overlays for my laptops.
| rhn_mk1 wrote:
| Are your designs available somewhere?
| causi wrote:
| Sure. Here's the one sized for my laptop, but you'd need to
| dial in the corner radius so it matches your clickpad, the
| width so it stops at the halfway point, and the thickness
| so it doesn't put pressure on your screen when it's closed.
|
| https://www.tinkercad.com/things/9igWZfgh07J
|
| https://preview.redd.it/dnvcnv8f6mi81.jpg?width=4032&format
| =...
| gtirloni wrote:
| Same experience. The old ones made creaky noises when held with
| one hand. My latest is a X1 Carbon and it's a much better
| machine. Zero nostalgia from me.
| elvis70 wrote:
| I just resurrected my old T410 from 2010 which had a "FAN ERROR"
| at boot. I just unscrewed and screwed back a screw that was
| attaching the fan, I guess, and it went back as on the first day.
| My T60 from 2007 never had a problem and is still kicking.
| Beta-7 wrote:
| It's interesting how the ThinkPads used to be the tech
| person's(tm) laptop of choice because of their repairability and
| extendability, but nowadays most tech people (at least in the
| professional setting) are using Apple's MacBooks which are the
| opposite when it comes to repairability and extendability.
| dartharva wrote:
| When Thinkpads have turned out to be pretty much the same in
| those terms, you might as well just use the cheaper and more
| durable product. Apple at least has more confidence in its
| lines than Lenovo (who wouldn't bother defering drastic changes
| at the whims of MBA "market researches") does.
|
| "Business" laptops have all gone down in a race to the bottom
| in my opinion. If you want to see innovations in the laptop
| space today, Gaming laptops is where it's at.
| de_keyboard wrote:
| I made this switch personally. The newer "compact" models from
| Lenovo do not work as well with Linux as the classic ones. If
| you want a compact, reliable unix-like laptop then Apple is
| really the best (for now).
| samatman wrote:
| I think it's simply that the advantages of either of those
| features have become less compelling.
|
| No one actually wants to repair their computer, although it's
| nice in the abstract for repair to be easy when it's necessary.
| I value reliability quite a bit, which is why I was unwilling
| to buy a second laptop with butterfly switches, lucky for me
| Apple didn't force me to make a hard decision. I also value
| being able to bring a broken machine to trained professionals,
| with the expectation that they'll repair it.
|
| Fixing a broken laptop interests me about as much as fixing a
| broken toaster oven.
|
| Extendability was valuable when RAM and hard drives got cheaper
| faster than CPUs. It's still frugal, at least, to get just a
| little of each, and pay market rate for the upgrade, rather
| than the Apple rate.
|
| This is something I've also stopped caring about. It's just
| easier to get the machine I expect to need up front. When I
| want more machine, used MacBooks have a robust market, so I get
| a new one and sell the old one.
|
| I enjoy soldering and wiring up little hacker machines, though
| I'm not good at it, but that's a hobby. It's emphatically not
| something I want to do in order to resume my professional work.
|
| There's still a whole swathe of ThinkPad users who like the
| interface, use 'exotic' ports, are maintaining old motherboards
| which work fine for them, more power to them. It's not
| surprising to see normal coders using a machine that just gets
| out of the way.
| rejectfinite wrote:
| >Extendability was valuable when RAM and hard drives got
| cheaper faster than CPUs
|
| As someone who runs local VMs on Windows, this is still true.
| I would like 32GB RAM and 1-2TB SSD storage locally.
|
| >It's not surprising to see normal coders using a machine
| that just gets out of the way.
|
| Tinkpads still do this? My first is my work machine, a T490s
| about 2 years old? I haven't done anything to the hardware
| itself. No repairs or opening up needed.
| bloep wrote:
| Modern ThinkPads are unfortunately also not very repairable.
| Replacing the USB-C port on the X1 Carbon is a 1 hour Job. The
| RAM is soldered on. Replacing the keyboard requires
| disassembling everything. Replacement parts are prohibitively
| expensive because Lenovo keeps the prices high. It's still
| better than Apple though.
| legitster wrote:
| It's kind of like old-school car mechanics vs young techs. Old
| school guys would often do fab work on the spot (welding,
| cutting, etc) but only have a few different models to deal with
| and no certifications. Most shops these days just focus on
| swapping parts.
| yourapostasy wrote:
| That's likely more a function of the OS' "It Just Works" factor
| than the hardware, and Apple's grasp upon that factor is
| increasingly fragmenting and growing more tenuous because
| mobile form factor products and profits have taken leadership
| focus off of the overall product ecosystem experience.
|
| The ascendancy of Macs in technical staff ranks commenced
| simultaneously with the ascendancy of Linux in the datacenter.
| The Windows tooling to integrate with Linux wasn't as smooth as
| Macs. Back in the Dark Ages, about half of the battle IMHO came
| down to Cygwin and similar weren't as nice as Terminal.app and
| Homebrew. And Terminal.app was a better ssh client than PuTTY.
| Back then if your backend heavy iron lived on Linux, then the
| overall development experience was simply lower friction on a
| MacBook Pro.
|
| This has changed these days, of course. macOS' low-friction
| edge is narrower now but a lot of what remains like mobile
| power and video management continues as especially challenging
| areas for Windows and Linux. VS Code is doing a lot to decouple
| developers from their hardware.
| mattarm wrote:
| > That's likely more a function of the OS' "It Just Works"
| factor than the hardware...
|
| That is exactly my observation. When the good power Mac
| laptops came out a _lot_ of my ThinkPad Linux laptop using
| co-workers jumped ship. Number one reason stated: battery
| life. Number two reason stated: suspend works reliably.
| Number three: it is POSIX /UNIX-ish enough that it is
| familiar and I can do my job.
| cbm-vic-20 wrote:
| As a "tech person" who did a lot of travelling in the late 90s
| / early 00s, the Thinkpad T series was the workhorse not only
| because of the repairability (corporate IT teams could easily
| maintain them) but as an end user, I loved the Thinkpad due to
| its durability. They were built very well- mine took a lot of
| abuse while being shoved under airline seats and being bounced
| around in luggage, having an occasional coffee spilled on them,
| etc.
|
| Other laptops of the time were absolutely flimsy: Dells, and HP
| laptops of the time were particularly cheap-feeling, had hinges
| that broke, had driver issues, and overall didn't have the high
| quality feel of the T series.
|
| My company has recently transitioned away from the T series to
| a different brand, but I'm holding on to my T480 until it dies
| or I quit.
| notjulianjaynes wrote:
| > I loved the Thinkpad due to its durability.
|
| Typing this on a T480 which 2 years ago, I accidentally
| dropped, while open, screen-first onto concrete from height
| of about 6 feet. There's a little dent in the bezel, but
| that's it. Still going strong.
|
| I am peeved about the USB-c port not being a replaceable
| module though. I can still charge through the
| Thunderbolt/Dock port, but the other one no longer accepts a
| charge from any cable/brick combo I've tried.
| RF_Savage wrote:
| Sadly the high speeds required for many things that people
| now use USB for make simple connectors or wires infeasible
| inside a compact machine. Can't push gigabits over anything
| cheap and compact.
| gruez wrote:
| Sounds like the demographic of "tech person" changed. It used
| to be mostly hardliners back in the days of the thinkpad, but
| now it's filled with moderates who don't really feel too
| strongly about repairability and extendability.
| mattarm wrote:
| I'm not sure "repairability" was the real reason thinkpads
| were popular. They were clearly better on a lot of criteria,
| at the time. I think the competition simply caught up, and
| the Thinkpad line simply doesn't have as much to distinguish
| it from the pack now.
| samatman wrote:
| I was around in the heyday of the ThinkPad, and this is
| (mostly) backward.
|
| It was always the standard kit of the stereotypical scruffy
| Linux hacker, but it was mostly just a really good laptop.
| The connoisseur's choice, reliable, repairable, and IBM would
| come to you and fix it on the desk if you paid them.
|
| A lot of that demographic have switched to MacBooks or one of
| the many ultrabook-type laptops of a similar design language,
| and what's left is the crew who valued the ability to hack on
| the machine.
|
| They were always there, but they're most of what's left.
| blowski wrote:
| I consider the likelihood of needing to repair or extend it
| within a 6 year lifetime, and I believe the Macbook has by
| far the best reputation in that regard.
| ok123456 wrote:
| Bing: Macbook Butterfly Keyboard Failure.
|
| In reality, modern Macbooks have a horrible reputation for
| repairability and engage in dark patterns to stop you from
| getting your device repaired even when it is an option.
| blowski wrote:
| Counter-point. The company I work for has about 50/50
| Macbooks vs Lenovo. We have about 1000 staff, and I've
| seen similar rates in a company with 5000 staff.
|
| Macbooks
|
| * 2% fail in first 12 months
|
| * 20% need replacing in 3 years
|
| Lenovo:
|
| * 20% fail in first 12 months. (Surprisingly high number
| fail out of the box)
|
| * 80% need replacing within 3 years
|
| I don't want a laptop that's easy to repair as much as a
| laptop that doesn't need repairing.
| numpad0 wrote:
| Is that because MacBooks are more tolerant of damages,
| rather than being resistant? I've seen photos of MacBooks
| with deformed bodies still operating normally. Same don't
| happen often with other brands.
| gertlex wrote:
| Disappointing article. The picture of the history was neat but
| small... The author didn't provide any interesting anecdotes
| whatsoever. Would have been great to read something about "X too
| longer than expected to implement because Y and Z". There's a
| book recommended at the end, but I'm certainly led by this
| article to believe there's much of interest...
| fHr wrote:
| I own 4 thinkpads and they all still work and are in great
| condition. Best laptop hardware I owned the past 30 years. Sturdy
| af, unbreakable and had the best keyboard. Thanks for setting
| such a high bar Thinkpads of (5xx -keeb), 4xx, 3xx, 2xx era!
| gillesjacobs wrote:
| Lenovo has lost its way with the ThinkPad brand on repairability.
| But that's a niche more adequately filled by new players such as
| Frame.work, who can solely focus on the repairability and
| extensibility aspects for enthusiasts.
| squarefoot wrote:
| Hijacking the thread to ask what would you choose as a 12"
| replacement for a X240. It still works great (using it now) and
| Linux support is perfect, but I have the chance to buy locally
| refurbished X270 or X280 devices with 1080 screen at a good
| price. Are they the best upgrade before going to different
| models? I believe they are also compatible with the docking
| station and bigger battery I already have on the 240, which is a
| bonus. Thanks!
| danielodievich wrote:
| I got a fully loaded P50 back in 2017 and it's been amazing to
| use for 5 years. Runs everything, very VM friendly. Very
| repairable. Yeah, I had to repair its screen, but that took no
| time. I reseated the heatsink around the CPU/GPU combo, that was
| really easy too. It's butt-ugly and fat and heavy but I much
| prefer it to the work macbook, works faster, runs quieter, has
| better battery life, and is much more pleasant to type on. Also
| in the house, X1 carbon and 2 X380 Yogas, all great machines too.
| wintermutestwin wrote:
| I have a stack of ThinkPads (T400,T510,T530) that I use for
| testing out new distros, etc. I love how easy it is to swap SSDs
| around and that they are built like tanks. I only really need
| one, so I'd ditch the 400 and 510, but shipping costs make it not
| worth ebaying them. I figure that, one day, I'll meet some local
| techie kid and gift them, but I haven't run into any in my RL
| circles. Any other suggestions?
| ghostpepper wrote:
| Does anyone think foldable displays is particularly innovative? I
| feel like most people who are fans of the thinkpad are not
| looking for innovation - they're mostly people who want
| conservative laptop designs.
| criddell wrote:
| Apple has Macbook Air and Macbook Pro and just a few variations
| in each line.
|
| How many lines does Lenovo have? ThinkPad, ThinkBook, Legion,
| Yoga, Ideapad, and one or two others and each brand has tons of
| different variations. They have innovative designs and more
| conservative ones. They sell low end utility machines and
| space-heater gaming machines. They are trying to be everything
| to everybody.
| joezydeco wrote:
| You want wacky thinkpad displays? I used to own a 755CV.
|
| https://twitter.com/gravislizard/status/837100849964830721
| dartharva wrote:
| It's obvious people in business use cases will want
| conservatism in design. Gimmicks like foldable displays are
| more suited to be introduced in the consumer space first, then
| brought over to business laptops if they stand the test of time
| in the market.
| mkoryak wrote:
| Anyone here know if it's possible to fix a t43p cooling fan that
| sounds like a bumblebee?
|
| I doubt I can find a replacement
| zen_1 wrote:
| https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_nkw=t43p+fan
|
| Looks like there are still some replacements kicking around.
|
| I've never seen a computer fan be repaired, and it seems the
| bearings all tend to fail eventually.
| neilv wrote:
| I've had good luck with the ThinkPad fans from eBay.
|
| A few tips to anyone doing the replacement:
|
| * Find the PDF of the ThinkPad Hardware Maintenance Manual
| (HMM) for your model. This will give valuable step-by-step
| instructions for disassembling the parts that you need to,
| and not the parts you don't.
|
| * Just buy the fan part, not the whole heatsink+fan assembly,
| even if the HMM tells you that the FRU is the assembly.
|
| * Keep track of the screws as you take them out. I like to
| use a sheet of paper with loops of tape, and label as I
| remove (see photo on
| "https://www.neilvandyke.org/coreboot/").
|
| * Have some thermal compound handy, as well as a way to clean
| the old compound. Since either you'll end up separating the
| heatsink from the CPU (and possibly other chipset packages),
| or you might as well replace compound while you have it open.
|
| * You might need new tape to attach the fan part to the
| grill.
| zen_1 wrote:
| Ebay has been great for thinkpad parts in general (I've
| replaced keyboards, screens and trackpads) as well as fans
| for other laptop models.
| gsibble wrote:
| I still love my Thinkpads. Run Linux and code endlessly on them.
| Gone through a P50, P52, P1G2, P17, and now a P16. Been very
| happy every time.
| karolist wrote:
| How did you find P50? I've just bought one for a personal
| machine. I've had X220 (too slow and resolution was shite for
| 2018), W530, very hot but potentially still good, gave that one
| away. Now have P16G4 for work, happy in general but the carbon
| finish is such a finger print magnet.
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