[HN Gopher] I need structure in my life
       ___________________________________________________________________
        
       I need structure in my life
        
       Author : memorable
       Score  : 175 points
       Date   : 2022-10-03 14:55 UTC (8 hours ago)
        
 (HTM) web link (janellsihay.com)
 (TXT) w3m dump (janellsihay.com)
        
       | Daunk wrote:
       | I wish I had the option to have... any kind of flexibility in my
       | life. I'm forced to go to work at a certain time, which means I
       | have to get up at a certain time. I also eat at work, both lunch
       | and dinner, so if I skip those then there's almost no time for me
       | to eat. I have to do chores when I get home for about an hour or
       | two, then I have about 2.5 hours of "free time" before I have to
       | go to bed and repeat the process. Being able to have any kind of
       | flexibility is an extreme luxury I think people take for granted.
        
         | balfirevic wrote:
         | > I have to do chores when I get home for about an hour or two
         | 
         | What chores take up 1-2 hours each and every day, considering
         | lunch and dinner are taken care of at work?
         | 
         | Edit: didn't sound to me like you have kids from your comment,
         | if you do then it makes sense.
        
         | throwaway22032 wrote:
         | You're forced to go to work at a certain time?
         | 
         | Which country do you live in in which this is the case?
         | Everywhere I've lived there have been jobs that are 9-5 and
         | jobs that are less rigid, ranging all the way to self
         | employment.
        
           | brailsafe wrote:
           | I would think they meant that their current job is suitable
           | but requires they be in at a specific time
        
             | throwaway22032 wrote:
             | Ah, right.
             | 
             | So like how I'm forced to commute two hours a day to work.
             | 
             | (if I get an in person job in a different town from the one
             | I live in).
             | 
             | This is just daft.
        
               | apetresc wrote:
               | Yeah, obviously he meant "forced" as in "within the
               | context of this job, if I want to keep it".
               | 
               | Taking too broad a view of what "forced" means just
               | nullifies the term. Of course nobody could then ever be
               | "forced" to do anything when suicide is an option.
        
               | throwaway22032 wrote:
               | It's hardly a luxury to pick a different job, this is
               | complete and utter bollocks. There are people up and down
               | the income and educational spectrum that do it, of every
               | race, etc.
               | 
               | The narrative that people are forced to work a specific
               | job is false and should not be reinforced.
        
           | jcpst wrote:
           | You seem surprised by this.
           | 
           | I have worked for years and made great efforts to get to a
           | point in life where I have a say in what time I do my work.
           | Most jobs I have had I did not have a choice. In the United
           | States.
        
           | [deleted]
        
         | doix wrote:
         | Do you have kids or otherwise responsible for anyone? If not,
         | one or two hours of chores per day is insane. Take a step back
         | and examine if the chores you are doing are actually worth
         | doing.
         | 
         | Obviously if you have kids or are a carer that probably does
         | not apply.
        
         | soupfordummies wrote:
         | The top comment is about a CEO who left to work in an Amazon
         | warehouse due to the daily structure.
         | 
         | This is the second most top comment.
         | 
         | Also really illustrates the whole "grass is always greener ..."
         | thing.
        
           | apetresc wrote:
           | The story you're referring to was about a CEO who was looking
           | for some relief from burnout and depression. He wanted the
           | structure as an antidote to a specific feeling, not as a
           | general desire.
           | 
           | All else being equal, I think the vast majority of people
           | would prefer self-direction and autonomy to rigorous top-down
           | order. People's choice and actions throughout the ages seem
           | to reinforce this. I wouldn't mistake someone's personal
           | choice to temporarily self-impose some structure as an
           | example of "grass is always greener".
        
           | crooked-v wrote:
           | Of course, the grass really is greener for the CEO, what with
           | the whole "has the financial luxury to quit the Amazon
           | warehouse job at any time" thing.
        
             | pessimizer wrote:
             | Remember all the rich guy driving an Uber for fun stories?
        
         | 3qz wrote:
         | > I have to do chores when I get home for about an hour or two
         | 
         | How is this possible? Are you counting exercise as a chore? I
         | probably do 2 hours of chores in a week and that includes a lot
         | of things related to cooking which you don't do
        
           | doubled112 wrote:
           | For me it is the kids.
           | 
           | The things I used to be able to do once a week are a daily
           | "quick go" now.
           | 
           | Somebody is always hungry. There's a trail of food and mess
           | they leave behind. There's frequent spills. There's constant
           | laundry and accidents.
        
           | somekyle wrote:
           | I have kids, and if I count their bedtime process as chores
           | an hour or two isn't a particularly heavy evening.
        
         | dijonman2 wrote:
         | I live by an edict. If you don't get what you want: it's due to
         | your decisions. I prioritized flexibility and that's what I
         | have. You can do the same!
        
           | A4ET8a8uTh0 wrote:
           | Hmm. I am taking this comment at face value and not as a
           | sarcastic response.
           | 
           | Even if you prioritize flexibility, if your position is at
           | the bottom of the totem pole, you will find it exceedingly
           | difficult to get even minute changes in it. Those employees
           | are increasingly monitored to the point I would not have
           | accepted as a kid, but it seems a more and more common
           | practice today.
           | 
           | I guess what I am saying is that what you do matters, but not
           | nearly as much as you give it credit for. Some of it is just
           | dumb luck.
        
             | dijonman2 wrote:
             | I feel sorry for you if you think I am being sarcastic. The
             | internet is an unhealthy place to live.
             | 
             | Travel more. Follow your passion. Forget labels and work
             | hard to get what you want. Work isn't 9-5. It's 24/7, who
             | you work for changes.
             | 
             | Treat yourself like a friend who you are looking out for.
        
             | doix wrote:
             | I mean you can say the luck argument about literally
             | everything. It's not a reason to dismiss making choices.
             | 
             | Not having kids/pets is a huge choice to make to have
             | flexibility. If you don't have dependents you don't need to
             | spend time looking after them. You also don't need to make
             | as much money so you can take a lower paying job. By being
             | in the position to take a lower paying job, you can
             | negotiate more flexibility etc.
             | 
             | Obviously that doesn't apply if you were forced to drop out
             | of highschool to get a minimum wage job to take care of
             | your sick parents/siblings.
             | 
             | Some people are less lucky than others, but I'd be willing
             | to bet that a large percentage of HN readers that finds
             | themselves with no flexibility have made many choices to
             | end up where they are.
        
               | A4ET8a8uTh0 wrote:
               | On average, as related to HN, you are probably not wrong.
               | I still hate averages, because they tend to hide the
               | reality ( and individual plight ) based on its extremes.
               | I have no real data to back it up other than anecdata.
               | 
               | I count myself as ridiculously lucky that I am where I am
               | doing what I do. Here I am mid-day, discussing non-work
               | related items in my down time. I have the flexibility (
               | and a pet and a kid although that is basically like
               | having two kids ), but I am unable to dismiss the idea
               | that it is not just me factor that got me to that point.
               | Looking back, there were tons of things that could have
               | gone wrong that would put me on the wrong track ( and as
               | is often with life, some things did ).
               | 
               | Otoh, I am not that much smarter than my sister and yet
               | we are in very different places despite having the same
               | upbringing, access and so on. You could argue that she is
               | not on HN, but I would say that is a self-selecting
               | process..
        
               | doix wrote:
               | Like the sibling comment, I feel like we are talking
               | about different things. You're talking about right and
               | wrong paths and careers.
               | 
               | I'm talking about choices like kids, prioritizing salary
               | over flexibility etc. I am not arguing that people in
               | tech are there purely based on merit and no luck.
               | 
               | I am saying people that are already in tech make choices
               | that give them more or less flexibility. Chasing a job at
               | FAANG to get a massive salary and then using the salary
               | to get an expensive car and massive mortgage is the wrong
               | choice if you want flexibility. But it probably is the
               | right choice if you want an expensive car and expensive
               | house.
        
               | A4ET8a8uTh0 wrote:
               | Ahh, yes. Sorry. It seems I misread the original post.
               | Thank you for the clarification. I am in agreement with
               | what you wrote immediately above.
        
               | doix wrote:
               | No need to apologize! All good, I got the feeling we were
               | in agreement and I was just explaining my point poorly.
        
               | Bakary wrote:
               | This sort of approach sounds useful on paper. People
               | should indeed make better choices. In reality, however,
               | this solves nothing because we are looking at societal
               | problems as varied and complex as climate change,
               | obesity, rising house prices, degree inflation, regular
               | inflation, global uncertainty, constant digital
               | surveillance, and so on. Even a person who has made
               | "good" choices such as becoming a SWE is still at the
               | mercy of macroeconomic changes. Maybe next year's AI will
               | nuke front end work just like it's nuking other white
               | collar job markets. Maybe the market will by nuked by
               | actual nukes. The modern day careers depend on so many
               | conditions that are outside of our control and can't be
               | fixed on an individual level, even if it's still a good
               | idea to make good choices.
        
               | doix wrote:
               | I feel like we are talking about different things.
               | 
               | I'm talking about not having kids/pets (which is
               | applicable to everyone) as a choice to make for more
               | flexibility where as you are talking about careers.
               | 
               | Also you're talking about good VS bad choices. I don't
               | think having kids is necessarily bad or good, it just
               | depends on what you want or priorities are.
        
               | Bakary wrote:
               | Kids/pets are good example as it would make my argument a
               | bit clearer. Today we have a sizeable portion of the
               | population that has no dependents, made good choices (had
               | an education, worked hard etc.) AND is still stuck
               | financially and professionally to the point where they
               | can't really have that much flexibility or make many more
               | tradeoffs. It's a lot worse in countries like China or
               | Korea but it's still pretty bad in the West. There is a
               | reason why fertility rates are plummeting, and it goes
               | beyond the classic demographic model of higher
               | development for lower fertility.
               | 
               | In other words, though it's true that outcomes are linked
               | to choices, just the ability to make real choices
               | (flexibility vs. salary or family, to name one) is
               | predicated on a large dose of prior luck.
        
               | [deleted]
        
             | dijonman2 wrote:
             | Being successful isn't about knowing CS. It's about
             | navigating relationships. Tech skills are now table stakes.
             | Do yourself a favor and diversify your skills. I was dealt
             | a shitty hand and rose above it. Emotional and sexual
             | abuse. I blame no one. I spent a decade reading and
             | studying psychology to rise above it. I've shared too much.
             | Do what you will with my advice. The common denominator is
             | my perseverance to survive. I made a choice to follow
             | something better instead of losing hope. It will get better
             | through constant incremental improvements. If you have no
             | hope find other people with the same problem. Talk to them.
             | Hire a life coach. Literally do anything other than give up
             | or feel outrage and cast hate.
        
           | PuppyTailWags wrote:
           | > If you don't get what you want: it's due to your decisions.
           | 
           | Asking genuinely, because I struggle with determining how
           | much of what I don't get can be attributed to me:
           | 
           | What if I wanted to be healthy, but have $<any number of
           | chronic, debilitating conditions with no clear identified
           | cause, mechanism, and or cure>? I recently listened to a
           | podcast where two people try to follow life-advice books and
           | determine if it actually helped them, and one of the hosts
           | had an extremely distressing time trying to attribute why her
           | abnormal mammogram result wasn't being followed up on by her
           | doctor, despite daily calls for two weeks, was something that
           | was due to her decisions.
           | 
           | [How does this apply to being abused as a child? Being a
           | domestic abuse survivor? Being the victim of a hate crime,
           | displaced due to war or other disaster?]
        
             | dijonman2 wrote:
             | Get out of your head and think about yourself. Forget all
             | labels. Listen to your gut and inner voice. Do what makes
             | you happy.
             | 
             | If you don't know what makes you happy that's step one.
        
               | PuppyTailWags wrote:
               | I'm afraid I don't understand how any of what you said
               | has anything to do with attributing events in my life to
               | my decisions. It just sounds like strategies to make
               | decisions for future things, which isn't relevant. Could
               | you explain?
        
             | ponow wrote:
             | The choice is in how to think about and respond to external
             | conditions, not in denying the existence of external
             | conditions.
        
               | PuppyTailWags wrote:
               | Yes, I'm asking precisely how to think about external
               | circumstances. If your thinking is that outcomes are
               | because of your decisions, it means if a doctor blows you
               | off after a cancer screening returns abnormal results you
               | must've decided something to result in this. The
               | podcaster decided the only logic there is that if you
               | didn't want the doctor to blow you off you shouldn't have
               | decided to proactively screen yourself for cancer.
               | 
               | Personally, I struggled with thinking about events in my
               | life and my decisions leading to those events precisely
               | because of seeing other people try to take that logic and
               | apply it in good faith, resulting in horrible
               | conclusions. That someone could've prevented their
               | fibromyalgia and therefore they are at fault for getting
               | sick. That someone's child abuse was something they need
               | to take responsibility about.
        
               | cxr wrote:
               | Don't worry too much about trying to make sense of that
               | advice. It's a bad take that only comes from people
               | who've had the privilege of all of the problems they've
               | known in life being self-inflicted. (That's for the
               | original commenter. The person you're responding to now
               | is engaging in a major moving of the goalposts.)
               | 
               | Here's what I've been prone to tell people instead: you
               | know how to always get want-- _always_? It 's by wanting
               | what you're going to get.
               | 
               | Some people misunderstand this. It's not about settling
               | or doing nothing. It's rather the opposite. It's to get
               | people to go through the process of interrogating
               | themselves about their wants in a way that engages the
               | logical part of their brain--which is ultimately most
               | likely to be the thing that leads to working out a path
               | to whatever that want is. In the extreme case you
               | present: "Is it unreasonable for me to want to the abuse
               | to stop?" The answer, of course, is an emphatic no.
               | There's no need to stop wanting that. Given that it's not
               | unreasonable, what's required, then, in order to produce
               | that effect?
        
         | cmehdy wrote:
         | This is one of the ways income inequality and systemic
         | discriminations can drastically alter the life of people or
         | groups of people. No time to think, to time to breathe.. no
         | time to dream. The mind can die (or at least enter a sort of
         | coma) long before the body in these circumstances. And it's
         | incredibly hard to help yourself while in there, which is why
         | the empathy and kindness of others matters so much too.
        
           | [deleted]
        
         | PragmaticPulp wrote:
         | > then I have about 2.5 hours of "free time" before I have to
         | go to bed and repeat the process.
         | 
         | When I was younger, I switched to a 4x10s schedule for this
         | exact reason. The limited time left after commute (long at the
         | time) and other obligations at the end of the day felt wasted.
         | 
         | Somewhat surprisingly, I felt better when I decided that my 4
         | work days per week would be solid work/chores/obligations from
         | morning to night. It no longer felt like I was missing out on
         | anything because I wasn't trying to squeeze some hobby or
         | social activity into a tired 2-3 hour slot at the end of the
         | day. My free time and my work time were as separate as they
         | could possibly get.
         | 
         | Even intra-day flexibility doesn't really solve the problem of
         | having too much to do. My solution was to squish all of the to-
         | dos together and leave my off days 100% flexible.
         | 
         | Even now, I try to finish errands and chores on weekdays for
         | this same reason: Keeping weekends open is extremely valuable.
        
         | xyzzy4747 wrote:
         | You can quit your job, move somewhere else, and live a
         | different life. Your daily routine is your choice. Technically,
         | you don't have to do anything at all.
        
           | [deleted]
        
           | dexwiz wrote:
           | Are you a bachelor? Unless you have no one depending on you,
           | and little social ties, this really isn't any option for most
           | people.
        
             | s1artibartfast wrote:
             | You can quit those too!
             | 
             | I've found it incredibly important to remember the reasons
             | that I choose to do what I do, and own that choice.
             | 
             | It helped me overcome serious depression and a victim
             | mindset.
             | 
             | Eg, I'm not forced to work and support my family. I want to
             | and choose to do so for a wide variety of reasons.
        
             | dahfizz wrote:
             | The majority of HN users are rich, single, city dwellers.
             | It's a pretty severe bubble IMO.
        
               | Tao3300 wrote:
               | It seems like you're guessing at best, stereotyping at
               | worst. Is there reliable demographic data for HN users?
        
               | newaccount2021 wrote:
        
             | [deleted]
        
       | waprin wrote:
       | I recently left a 400k+ job to work full time on an app
       | addressing this exact problem, despite having a wife, daughter,
       | and Bay Area mortgage . Of course productivity apps are a crowded
       | space but I have a burning need to build the right tool for
       | myself , and I believe might help others.
       | 
       | Remote work has pressed the need for me to improve here since I
       | think I benefited by being in the same room as coworkers and
       | being alone in my home the whole workday has pressed my ability
       | to stay focused.
       | 
       | I struggled with ADHD , but because of past health issues,
       | medication is off the table. Even though Vyvanse was a miracle
       | for focus it caused some serious other problems. And the more I
       | read about psychiatry and psychology the more I've gotten excited
       | by lifestyle changes.
       | 
       | One thing I feel strongly about is that productivity tools need
       | to be descriptive, not prescriptive . I'm not a robot, I need to
       | work on what my gut is telling me to work on rather than what
       | some reminder is telling me to work on. But I also need to do
       | work and not scroll Reddit for hours so a tool helps with
       | accountability for that.
       | 
       | I can't over emphasize how enamored I am with Andrew Huberman
       | Youtube video on the topic. He's a Stanford neuroscientist with
       | all sorts of suggestions on managing our dopamine levels with
       | techniques like cold water therapy and intermittent fasting.
       | 
       | Social media, including hacker news and excessive email checking,
       | can destroy your motivation if you don't keep it in check. If
       | you're struggling with focus you simply have to monitor and
       | moderate these things.
       | 
       | Please email me, username at gmail if this topic is of interest
       | to you.
        
         | Bakary wrote:
         | What I don't understand is that with a $400K salary you should
         | easily be able to retire altogether within a few short years,
         | which should completely solve the productivity issue. You
         | wouldn't even have to dial back your lifestyle too much unless
         | you are currently burning it on Veblen goods.
         | 
         | I'm grateful you are working on the app, however, as that
         | sounds very helpful.
        
           | aleksiy123 wrote:
           | Not everyone wants to retire early. Especially people who
           | thrive in structure.
        
             | Bakary wrote:
             | Instead of retire, let's say never having to do something
             | you don't want to do (professionally) at which point you
             | don't need productivity boosts. You just do things you'd do
             | anyway. And if you don't do them, were you that interested
             | in it to begin with?
        
       | pugets wrote:
       | You only need semi-structure. Walk the dog every morning. Take
       | out the trash at night. Read for a little while before bed. Call
       | mom every Saturday. The exact times and durations don't matter
       | and won't be known beforehand.
       | 
       | I made the mistake of trying to organize a master plan for how I
       | would live my days. In my experience, it just doesn't work out
       | the way you plan it. Daily life is too chaotic.
       | 
       | I now use a much simpler approach instead. 8am, 12pm, 4pm, 8pm.
       | These are the times by which I need to get something done.
       | 
       | For example, 8am: Walk the dog. By 8, it should be done. If it
       | gets done before 7, even better. If it gets done at 8:10, start
       | earlier tomorrow. 12pm: Fold the laundry. 4pm: Go to the store,
       | call mom, read. 8pm: Make dinner, take out the trash.
       | 
       | When you are comfortable with how many tasks you assign yourself,
       | add more tasks. But don't go crazy when you're just starting off.
       | Keeping one habit is better than flirting with five.
        
         | germandiago wrote:
         | This works pretty well. A semi-routine. With certain
         | flexibility.
        
         | akira2501 wrote:
         | I found that planning my _weeks_ was far more valuable than
         | planning my _days_. As you point out, daily life is too
         | chaotic, but a week is something you can actually work with.
         | 
         | I found the same to be true with dieting. You shouldn't plan
         | your diet around single days of eating, you should plan it
         | around an entire week of eating.
        
         | steve_adams_86 wrote:
         | This is in line with what I've had success with. I've recently
         | written about it here as well - just a morning walk ritual,
         | more or less. It has been transformative. It's an incredibly
         | easy, no-tech, free activity which lets my mind and body
         | properly wake up and get primed for the day.
         | 
         | Some days I just wander for 15 minutes and look at the sun or
         | feel the air and enjoy the moment. Other days maybe I'll start
         | around 5:30 and carry on for an hour or two, then come home and
         | get my kids ready for their day. It doesn't matter, and that's
         | kind of the point. As long as I've made the time for it, as
         | long as I get up and do it, I can feel it out and do what feels
         | good.
         | 
         | It means I'm always awake and ready when I start my day.
         | There's no dragging myself to my computer or trying to keep up
         | with getting the kids ready. By letting myself ease into the
         | day, energizing myself with fresh air and movement, I get way
         | ahead of where I used to be despite spending far more time
         | "doing nothing".
         | 
         | My other ritual, I suppose, is bed time. I get to sleep around
         | 9:30, no matter what. Didn't work enough? Didn't make lunches?
         | It doesn't matter. Just rest. I'll catch up in the morning
         | after I wander aimlessly and find myself again.
         | 
         | My wife doesn't like my early bed time (she's a night owl), but
         | I've begun guarding it closely. The structure isn't much, but
         | it's enough. Like the author suspects for themselves, I really
         | do need it.
         | 
         | Everything that happens in between is usually chunked into
         | loose "get work done" and "hang out with family" - specific
         | tasks are pretty easy to schedule into there, and I'm just
         | careful to ensure there's little overlap. The boundaries of the
         | day being clear makes it way easier to remain focused and
         | ensure I don't end up trying to do everything at once.
         | 
         | I suspect if everyone made sure they got good sleep and had
         | consistent wake and sleep structure, so many other parts of
         | their days would fall into place as well.
        
         | notjustanymike wrote:
         | Exactly! Flexible rituals, not rigid structures. In particular,
         | the morning rituals should be designed to encourage some form
         | of productivity and the evening rituals should create closure.
        
           | personalidea wrote:
           | What I found with my kids was that the sequence is more
           | important than the time. Their bedtime routine has been
           | pretty much the same for the last ten years, only the timing
           | has changed.
        
         | rejectfinite wrote:
         | I gotta do this. My life is spiraling. And I have a job...
        
       | jskulski wrote:
       | Rituals can be important. I recently worked on a mostly daily
       | exercise routine and it's life changing. I'm now focusing on a
       | monthly/weekly/daily planning. If I try to even do two habits, I
       | have much lower results.
       | 
       | Counterintuitively, there's requirements to have more slack time.
       | It's has to be dedicated and active. I need time to waste. I just
       | need that time to be intentional, timed and shamefree. One trick,
       | I use is to set a timer, get myself a glass of water, and then
       | turn down the bed like a hotel before a Movie.
        
       | alpark3 wrote:
       | I feel like it's a losing game to try to force yourself into a
       | "productivity" mindset, as if you're some type of black box that
       | needs to be optimized for certain behavior.
       | 
       | Structure is good and habit is key, but don't imprison yourself
       | in it, in my opinion.
        
       | L0in wrote:
       | I think it would be more beneficial if you examine your
       | activities and behaviors at work hours. The wouldn't be much
       | difference in your work output if you eat launch in the morning
       | or spend a little time with your family. If there's a <<problem>>
       | somewhere it's probably during work hours.
        
       | rcarr wrote:
       | One of the absolute easiest ways to add structure when unemployed
       | is to pick a substantial exercise goal and work towards it.
       | Endurance events are ideal but could also be something like a new
       | Deadlift PR. For the former, if you pick a long enough distance
       | such as Ironman or Half Ironman you'll be training in the region
       | of between 10 and 20 hours a week which is a part time job in
       | itself.
       | 
       | For the latter, you'll be doing less but the time spent commuting
       | to the gym, doing your workout and showering is probably still
       | going to add up to somewhere in the 5 - 10 hour range if you're
       | doing it 5/6 days a week.
       | 
       | You can pretty much find an app for every mainstream sport
       | imaginable where you can get a full year of personalised
       | programming for under PS200. If you then combine this with a
       | training course of some kind to learn a new skill and a creative
       | project/side hustle, you end up with a self-structured life by
       | default that is pretty satisfying.
       | 
       | If anyone wants app recommendations for specific sports leave a
       | comment and I'll write a list of the best ones I've found.
        
       | MrDrDr wrote:
       | I have moved between phases of high productivity and high
       | procrastination. IMO a system and routine are great if you have a
       | goal you genuinely want to achieve. The more time it takes to
       | achieve the goal (I'm thinking 5+ years) the more helpful a
       | system/routine is. The problem occurs when you find yourself
       | working hard to achieve a goal you have no genuine interest in -
       | and then no system is going to help you.
        
       | kzrdude wrote:
       | How much do you sleep? Cutting down as much as possible on
       | evening internet really helps my whole life.
        
       | didgetmaster wrote:
       | I recently retired from working for other companies after a 35
       | year career; but I have a personal side-project that I have
       | worked on for about a decade. During that time I would usually
       | spend spare time on it in the evenings or on weekends. Now I can
       | work on it anytime I like.
       | 
       | Without some kind of structure, it is easy to let a whole week or
       | two go by without accomplishing much of anything. So I make sure
       | that I get up at 7am every morning and do something productive on
       | it each day. Some days I will only spend a couple hours on it,
       | others I will work 10+ hours on it.
       | 
       | Since startup founders often have to wear many hats, it can be a
       | challenge to decide what to work on each day. To prevent boredom
       | and to spread tasks around so that progress is made in several
       | different areas; I roll a single die every day to decide which of
       | six areas to work on that day. 1 = Work on a new feature. 2 =
       | Test an existing feature or run benchmarks. 3 = Fix bugs or
       | optimize some code. 4 = Write documentation, blogs, or
       | newsletters. 5 = Work on marketing and sales. 6 = Reach out to
       | existing customers for feedback or help them figure out how to
       | use it better.
        
       | atemerev wrote:
       | I have heavy ADHD. For me, structured life is sadly impossible.
       | Every attempt routine degrades in a week or two.
        
         | jcpst wrote:
         | Keep trying. I know it's a struggle. Lots of stuff will not
         | work or last. But once in a while you may get that one tiny
         | little habit to stick, and every little bit helps.
        
           | Tao3300 wrote:
           | I heard great things about this book called _Atomic Habits_ ,
           | so I bought it. Unfortunately I could never remember to read
           | it, and I'm not sure where it is now.
        
             | dutchbrit wrote:
             | Ha, I finally ordered that book a few days ago, last minute
             | before I'd set off on holiday (I procrastinated ordering it
             | for about 2 months). It should of arrived the day before I
             | left, but unfortunately it didn't and now I'm on holiday
             | without it. Was looking forward to reading it, but I guess
             | I'll have to wait a bit longer.
        
       | Ilasky wrote:
       | I know this feeling extremely well. Routines are routinely broken
       | by me, but I found that I just needed someone else there with me
       | to do the thing. Even if it is just their presence.
       | 
       | In the ADHD community, it's called body doubling (
       | https://doubleapp.xyz/blog/how-to-body-double ), but it can
       | absolutely extend to those outside of the ADHD sphere as well.
        
         | TurkishPoptart wrote:
         | i'm curious but the link doesn't work
        
           | Ilasky wrote:
           | Does this one work for you?
           | 
           | https://doubleapp.xyz/blog/how-to-body-double
        
         | vjk800 wrote:
         | When I was a graduate student, I often participated in summer
         | schools and conferences where there was a strict schedule that
         | included two or three meals a day. I absolutely loved it. I
         | would like to live all of my life so that someone else would
         | schedule my life for me, cook meals at right times, etc. And of
         | course part of it was that most of the other people
         | participating the event also did the same schedule as you so
         | you always had friends to have lunch, dinner and coffee breaks
         | with.
         | 
         | If someone has any suggestions on how to organize my life like
         | a one big summer school, I'm listening. I guess joining a
         | monastery would do it, but I don't really care for the other
         | aspects of monastic life.
        
           | mateo411 wrote:
           | You could live on a cruise ship. They have a daily schedule
           | for fun activities and meal times. For many people, it is
           | more fun than joining a monastery.
        
             | vjk800 wrote:
             | This is an excellent idea. I need to be a bit wealthier to
             | do it though.
        
           | pipeline_peak wrote:
           | > I would like to live all of my life so that someone else
           | would schedule my life for me, cook meals at right times,
           | etc.
           | 
           | > how to organize my life like a one big summer school
           | 
           | It sounds like you don't want to take on being an adult.
           | 
           | Responsibility gives you independence and power, you might
           | want a therapist to help persuade and shortly guide you that.
        
             | vjk800 wrote:
             | Spot on. I don't want independence and I have no use for
             | power. I just want to focus on having fun and spending time
             | with good people without managing every single minor aspect
             | of my life and having responsibility over stuff I don't
             | care about. I could also to something useful, i.e. work, if
             | absolutely needed. Is this too much to ask? I think that in
             | the past loads of people lived like this; powerful people
             | had lots servants to take care of the mundane stuff while
             | they themselves concentrated on the big picture, while the
             | servants lived almost like children in their master's
             | households, focusing on the responsibilities they were paid
             | for.
             | 
             | I already have a therapist, but so far he hasn't been able
             | to turn me into a proper adult. Oh, and by the way, I'm
             | close to 40 now so I don't think anymore that this is just
             | a passing phase.
        
               | pipeline_peak wrote:
               | > I don't want independence and I have no use for power.
               | 
               | I used to think like this, it's easy to dismiss, "I want
               | power" sounds like something a maniac would say. I don't
               | believe you truly don't want independence, maybe less,
               | but that still sounds like a real issue.
               | 
               | > I think that in the past loads of people lived like
               | this;
               | 
               | > servants lived almost like children
               | 
               | That's absolutely not true, I'm no history buff, but
               | servants had all sorts of pressure and responsibility put
               | on them. Their tasks may have been menial in skill, but
               | they were damn well complicated. Imagine bringing the
               | wrong drink or spilling a glass of wine in front of the
               | king, off with your head. They seem like children to us
               | because life is so much more complex, we didn't die at
               | 30.
               | 
               | > already have a therapist, but so far he hasn't been
               | able to turn me into a man
               | 
               | Maybe I've mistaken your casual wording, but it's not
               | their job to turn you into anything, they're supposed to
               | at the very least analyze. Depending on their practice,
               | they might give concrete guidance.
               | 
               | If you want to be some wealthy old mans pet, that's fine
               | by me, but I don't believe you don't want independence,
               | no one doesn't. I think you're just overwhelmed by the
               | mundane obstacles we all need to pass to earn it.
               | 
               | For example:
               | 
               | >I just want to focus on having fun and spending time
               | with good people without managing every single minor
               | aspect of my life and having responsibility over stuff I
               | don't care about
               | 
               | That's the bare minimum of reality, we've all got those
               | things, even Kim Kardashian.
               | 
               | Maybe your job is too complicated and demanding? There's
               | a place you can _reduce_ your responsibility, but it
               | doesn 't have to be so black and white.
        
             | [deleted]
        
           | azmodeus wrote:
           | We used to do this with flatmates with dinner duty. One of us
           | would cook dinner every night for the whole flat based on a
           | rota. We were 5 people and all pretty close so that
           | definitely helped!
        
         | chinchilla2020 wrote:
         | Well at least you have one routine. You routinely break
         | routines!
        
           | Ilasky wrote:
           | Haha! I can count on it like the sun rising in the east.
        
         | [deleted]
        
       | Silverback_VII wrote:
       | Repeat the following sentence 10 times in a row, 3 times a day
       | and once before bed with the diligence of a Muslim:
       | 
       | "He who cannot obey himself will be commanded. That is the nature
       | of living things."
        
         | mattkrause wrote:
         | (It's from Nietzsche in _Thus Spake Zarathustra_ , if anyone
         | else is trying to figure out why it sounds familiar).
        
         | skapadia wrote:
         | This sounds like a line from a self-help book from the 1930s -
         | 1950s.
        
           | mattkrause wrote:
           | A bit older (1880s)!
        
       | weinzierl wrote:
       | I have a pretty well structured life because I enjoy it that way.
       | Does it make me more productive than people with a less
       | structured life? Maybe a little bit, but I doubt it makes a big
       | difference. A rigid structure always means fragmentation, waste
       | and unnecessary overhead.
        
       | tenpoundhammer wrote:
       | Throughout my career I've spent a lot of time stressing out about
       | how productive I'm being. Trying many different methods. Finally
       | I decided that if I feel stressed out about my productivity I
       | would write down everything I've done during the day. Usually
       | turns out I've done a lot of stuff that I it's actual work that I
       | just discount as not work. Some days get taken over by mandatory
       | work that doesn't feel productive but is.
        
       | ar_lan wrote:
       | In general, I find myself to be someone who operates best within
       | certain confines - for example, the time blocking from Cal
       | Newport has been highly effective for myself.
       | 
       | That said, I caution against too much routine. I used to get
       | really into it but remember many days where I felt like the day
       | was ruined because I couldn't get a workout in, or someone
       | scheduled an 8am meeting, or any other myriad of things I grew
       | dependent on. Too much structure is basically a fragile crutch,
       | in my experience.
       | 
       | My personal morning "routine" is a quick cup of coffee and a half
       | mile walk, and then straight to work. I time block the day first
       | thing based on whatever my weekly goals for the week were, and
       | try to keep about two hours of buffer time to allow some shifting
       | throughout the day.
       | 
       | I've done this about a year now and it's helped me keep the
       | benefits of structure, without the guilt of when something
       | "optimal" doesn't happen.
        
         | TurkishPoptart wrote:
         | Is there a "lite" version of Cal Newport's time-blocking
         | techniques? I'm super interested every time I hear him explain
         | it but I get overwhelmed and never end up implementing
         | anything.
        
           | garrickvanburen wrote:
           | I schedule almost everything (eg taking out the trash,
           | commutes, workouts)
           | 
           | Maybe start scheduling more of your commitments and
           | obligations in your calendar?
           | 
           | Or alternatively,
           | 
           | Start by keeping a time diary of how you spend your days and
           | how long tasks take you, then use that to inform your time
           | blocks
        
           | ar_lan wrote:
           | I wouldn't really say it's a big implementation. I just use a
           | piece of paper and denote a line to each 30 mins of the work
           | day.
           | 
           | So it might look like:
           | 
           | 10: meeting
           | 
           | 1030: bug fixing
           | 
           | 11: bug fixing
           | 
           | 1130: bug fixing
           | 
           | 12: run
           | 
           | 1230: run
           | 
           | 1: lunch
           | 
           | 130: feature work
           | 
           | 2: feature work
           | 
           | 230: meeting
           | 
           | 3: feature work
           | 
           | 330: feature work
           | 
           | 4: plan next week
           | 
           | The above was my entry from last Friday, where I had a late
           | start to the day.
           | 
           | At the start of my day I had kept the 12-2:30 block fairly
           | empty (I knew some form of working out + lunch would show up,
           | and I had wanted to do some feature work that day, but I
           | didn't know if any other meetings would pop up. They didn't,
           | so it worked great!)
           | 
           | I basically fill in meetings first, then work around them to
           | put in the work I want to focus on for the day. The main
           | caveat is I don't focus on anything else for this blocks, and
           | unless I'm in incredible flow and the task is definitely
           | important, I always make sure I stop at the end of the block
           | time (the whole "we will fill up whatever time we allot
           | ourselves" theory).
        
         | mikkergp wrote:
         | I've noticed in my life I really limit my "must-dos". In fact I
         | may only have one. I have to run the four or so days a week I
         | plan to. Too much structure I think doesn't leave enough slack
         | time and then too often does the inverse of what it disposed to
         | do which is help you feel grounded. Everything else is sort of
         | "agile structure". Planning athe beginning of the day or maybe
         | the week, but having a strict routine is almost like trying to
         | plan years ahead of time, you just don't know enough about what
         | life will bring.
         | 
         | With a simple structure it really does feel like it brings
         | order to chaos, if I have a really bad week and maybe don't
         | even get my runs in, it's relatively easy to get my runs in the
         | next week. Six different morning activities all at once? That's
         | just asking for failure.
        
       | DerekBickerton wrote:
       | My circadian rhythm is structure enough. As for morning and night
       | routines, I have them, and it usually involves a phone. So first
       | thing I check in the morning is my local news, and then world
       | news (so I can have some context for the whole day and to be
       | alerted of the fact we're not in a nuclear war). Then
       | caffeination happens to bring me back to baseline reality.
       | 
       | As for night, I catch up on social media, then place the phone in
       | another room so I'm not tempted to doom-scroll. I have a
       | dedicated non-internet iPod for listening to podcasts with the
       | VLC app which typically sends me to sleep. If I have problems
       | sleeping, I take notes, since my brain is buzzing with valuable
       | ideas which I execute on the next day.
        
       | garrickvanburen wrote:
       | Something I remind myself now and again, "Tomorrow starts today."
       | 
       | To me, this means, look at the next day's calendar (commitments,
       | obligations, logistics) the night before. If you don't have
       | any... make some arbitrary ones up.
       | 
       | All structure is self-imposed anyway (as evidence by those that
       | are late for everything).
        
       | ok_dad wrote:
       | A local rooster waking me up everyday at 530am has done wonders
       | for my productivity. I'm not even joking, I wake up and close the
       | windows so my wife doesn't get bothered, make coffee, code for a
       | few hours before work, then do my work day, play with my son, and
       | finally I end up going to bed quite early (10am) due to being
       | dead-ass tired. I was about to try and get rid of the rooster,
       | but I actually love the little dude now.
        
       | artur_makly wrote:
       | have a kid ;-)
        
       | vehemenz wrote:
       | Maybe try defining your structure in terms of the effort you put
       | in and what you accomplish (with respect to that effort), rather
       | than a schedule or a sequence of items on a checklist. Your
       | coffee or teeth-brushing rituals are minor, accidental details.
        
       | newaccount2021 wrote:
        
       | Xcelerate wrote:
       | > I've come across a lot of productivity and self-help resources
       | and all of them suggest setting up a routine.
       | 
       | I've noticed that having a routine is also about the best way to
       | accelerate the perception of the passage of time.
       | 
       | The more routine my life is, the quicker the years go by, and I
       | look back and say "what did I do during all that time?"
       | 
       | My most memorable years are the ones with a lot of variety,
       | change, and novelty.
        
         | Bakary wrote:
         | It makes more sense to think of routines as ways to optimize
         | your boring time to make more room for the important things.
        
       | amjnsx wrote:
       | This is the main reason I hate the holiday season. It's obviousy
       | nice to take a break and spend time with loved ones, but as I
       | don't spend it at home, my structure/routine just completley
       | falls apart and I can't wait for the week to be over by the end
       | and I'm craving normality.
        
       | danbrooks wrote:
       | Having kids has created a very specific structure.
        
         | oldsklgdfth wrote:
         | Not having kids, I feel like a family clears up the
         | optimization problem of:
         | 
         | * what should I be doing with my time?
         | 
         | * what is important to think about?
         | 
         | As a software dev with a flexible schedule, my life feels
         | arbitrary. I pick up hobbies because I need stuff to do, I try
         | to eat better to take care of myself, I save money and live
         | frugally for a rainy day. But there's no common thread to all
         | these. It's just stuff I picked.
        
         | Tade0 wrote:
         | Yes. Also forces one to prioritize because both time and energy
         | are precious resources.
        
           | euroderf wrote:
           | Yes. You will find a lot of half-hearted "interests" melting
           | away.
        
       | dainiusse wrote:
       | If you can't do it alone, just you wait until you have kids...
        
       | ravenstine wrote:
       | Structure can help.
       | 
       | However, some of us simply have too many things we want to get
       | done in the span of a human lifetime, in which case the answer is
       | to do _less_ , not more.
        
       | shakezula wrote:
       | I resonate with this a lot and the part about not knowing if that
       | lack of structure is what makes you unproductive is a question
       | I've asked myself a lot lately. It's hard to know the answer and
       | I always get different feedback from different people when asked
       | which almost always just boils down to what they do.
        
       | Ruq wrote:
       | I relate to this so much. I probably should build a morning
       | routine. There's so much I want to get done.
        
       | colordrops wrote:
       | Instead of desiring and expecting structure and going limp once
       | the structure fails, try instead to drop the crutches and
       | strengthen the "muscle" that keeps you always dynamically
       | evaluating what is best for you to be doing at this very moment.
       | There's a desire to have a simple world where you just color in
       | between the lines and everything works out while you go on
       | autopilot, but the best laid plans of mice and men often go awry
       | - the world does not owe you your schedule. Just stay awake and
       | always be re-evaluating, don't get caught in sunk-cost fallacy,
       | and don't hold onto anything too tightly.
        
         | mannymanman wrote:
         | How do you even start doing this? I have poor self control and
         | usually start projects/tasks right as the deadline approaches.
         | I wish I was that productive all the time...
        
           | colordrops wrote:
           | Mindfulness meditation is a big help here. It works for me
           | but there are other methods, e.g. memento mori, psychedelics,
           | journaling, minimalism, travel, nootropics, exercise until
           | exhaustion, new social groups, always pushing a bit out of
           | your comfort zone. It's a bit chicken and egg, but letting
           | that seed be planted in your head and keep at it for a while
           | and don't get caught up in dogma or any particular method.
        
       | nodelessness wrote:
       | It is important to listen to the body. I tried to have a spartan
       | level of self discipline and that put me in a express route to
       | burn out. And I burned out.
       | 
       | Burn out is not easy to climb out of, so I would rather be less
       | than ideally productive than be disciplined to an extent that
       | ignores my humanity and that damages me severely.
        
         | Tao3300 wrote:
         | > I tried to have a spartan level of self discipline and that
         | put me in a express route to burn out.
         | 
         | That's because you didn't have a subjugated population of
         | helots taking care of everything that isn't your core
         | competency ;)
        
       | jasonshen wrote:
       | I spoke to a long-time Microsoft and Facebook eng leader who left
       | his post as a nonprofit software CEO due to burnout and then
       | spent many months languishing and spiralling into depression.
       | 
       | He actually decided to get a job as an Amazon warehouse worker
       | for 6 weeks for exactly the reason OP is struggling with: to get
       | structure.
       | 
       | > In November, I suddenly thought, "I should at least get some
       | sort of job somewhere just to have some regularity to my
       | schedule, to enforce some daily practices". My number one
       | priority was just to have structured work that would force me to
       | get up every day--work that was very different from white collar
       | jobs, in that I did not want to be asked to make a lot of
       | decisions everyday.
       | 
       | > I didn't want the stress of managing people and teams. I didn't
       | want the politics of subjective decisions being debated amongst
       | team members. I wanted literally to be told what to do every day
       | and I wanted that structure to be rigorous. I strongly felt that
       | would help me get out of my depression.
       | 
       | https://www.jasonshen.com/120/
       | 
       | Update: posted this on HN since it seems to resonate
       | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33072083
        
         | PakG1 wrote:
         | The best work experience I ever had was working in a warehouse
         | where I just unpacked and repacked lumber all day. It was a lot
         | of nonstop lifting. I felt happy when I went home because I
         | felt like I worked hard and got stuff done and it was really
         | good exercise too. I did that work because I didn't know what I
         | REALLY wanted to do after quitting my job (disillusionment and
         | naive startup dreams without knowing what it took to succeed)
         | and I wanted to experience hard work that wasn't in an office
         | (i.e. work in the trenches).
         | 
         | Someone I knew told me I could work in his warehouse. It's too
         | bad that it was so low pay. If the pay wasn't the issue, I
         | wonder if staying at that kind of job would actually be really
         | good for me. I would be physically healthy, my mind would be
         | clear and refreshed all the time, and I would feel good about
         | having worked hard every day. Would the positive effect still
         | last if I did that work for years, or was the positive effect
         | only temporary because it was a novel experience to me at the
         | time (and I didn't care about the low pay at the time)?
         | Interesting to consider.
        
           | pak9rabid wrote:
           | I had a similar experience in my teenage years working in
           | Dell factories (back when they still ran them out of
           | Austin/Round Rock). One of the jobs they had me do for a week
           | was to simply unload trucks that came in and put the
           | computers/monitors/whatever onto a conveyor than sent them on
           | their way. It was surprisingly satisfying, not to mention
           | some of the guys I worked with were absolute riots. Kinda
           | miss those days...
        
           | mattmanser wrote:
           | I did a bunch of warehouse jobs when I was at uni. Some of
           | the most depressing and soul crushing jobs I've ever had. The
           | worst ever one I had was pulling a massive roll of sandpaper
           | to a line and then another guy pressed a button to cut it.
           | Then we lifted the cut sandpaper on to a pile. Repeat for 8
           | hours.
           | 
           | I didn't stay in that one past one day, far too boring.
           | 
           | Let's not romanticise these jobs. I think you're confusing
           | the endorphins from exercise, which most warehouse jobs don't
           | need, with the job.
           | 
           | Most warehouse jobs completely suck.
        
             | reanimus wrote:
             | I think you can both have true experiences when it comes to
             | this. Some people enjoy the monotony of repetitive tasks,
             | whereas others want to gargle glass after 10 minutes of it.
             | I certainly know I don't want to work a job that physically
             | exhausts me every day, but some people do enjoy that. I
             | don't think it's romanticizing to say that good-paying
             | warehouse work with proper benefits would be a boon to a
             | LOT of people.
        
         | pid-1 wrote:
         | When I was an intern I did a lot of boring work in data centers
         | now and then. Unloading servers from boxes, labeling
         | everything, making connections, installing stuff on racks,
         | etc...
         | 
         | It was almost therapeutic.
        
         | Bakary wrote:
         | This is disturbing on a deep level. A person taking on such a
         | job for self-discovery as if it were tourism. Most workers in
         | that warehouse need those jobs, including those 60 year olds
         | the ex-CEO felt sorry for. It reads like a parody of tech
         | culture.
        
           | ericmcer wrote:
           | It isn't disturbing on a deep level, there is just inequality
           | on many levels. Most people who get an unequal share of the
           | wealth are probably also taking on way more stress than the
           | average person undergoes.
           | 
           | An ideal world would be one where someone was able to do
           | focused creative work for a few months and then mindless
           | manual labor for a few months and trade back and forth as
           | desired. That will never happen but I would love it.
        
             | cxr wrote:
             | I agree with this a lot. It's the shakeup, I think. I've
             | wondered in the past about companies pulling their skilled
             | knowledge workers out of their usual roles and saying,
             | "you're working in HR now" or "you're working in the
             | warehouse now (if you want)". Let them do that from 3 weeks
             | up to 3 months, and then go back to regular work. Or maybe
             | inverted 20% time: Monday-Thursday in the warehouse, and
             | Friday at your desk inside your IDE. I'd be really
             | surprised if all the "obvious" reasons why this experiment
             | wouldn't work actually showed up in the data at the end. My
             | expectation is positive gains in productivity.
        
             | Bakary wrote:
             | The lack of self-awareness is the disturbing part, or that
             | the person interviewed failed to understand the actual
             | lesson about the nature of working a shit job for your
             | whole life like those presumed 60 year olds.
        
           | kevinventullo wrote:
           | You know there's probably an opportunity to offer this as an
           | "experience" to SV types, a la dude ranches.
        
           | smoldesu wrote:
           | Should I feel bad for Amazon?
        
             | Bakary wrote:
             | I don't understand what you are referring to.
        
           | the_doctah wrote:
           | >It reads like a parody of tech culture.
           | 
           | I don't know, I feel like this is just a retread of "Office
           | Space" and office employees yearning to do construction work.
        
             | Bakary wrote:
             | The important distinction is the much larger financial and
             | professional freedom of the person in question than the
             | Office Space characters
        
         | jonasdegendt wrote:
         | I can't speak for Amazon but I had an order picking job at a
         | Volvo warehouse in college, and despite having to hit a certain
         | number of picked items every day it was oddly relaxing.
         | 
         | Once you got good at it you could zoom through your day on auto
         | pilot. Drive to aisle X, pick up N boxes at rack Y, rinse and
         | repeat.
        
           | [deleted]
        
         | localhost wrote:
         | I remember Philip! Wow. That's some story. Thanks for sharing
         | it.
        
         | shakezula wrote:
         | I have found myself day-dreaming about a manual labor job for
         | many of the same reasons. I am supremely jealous of my friends
         | who work these types of jobs and can "leave it at the door"
         | when they come home. I can't do that as well, even when I try
         | to enforce boundaries. Slack, emails, my home office, etc...
         | make it impossible to shut it all out. I'm considering tearing
         | down my home office and working solely from a coffee shop
         | because of it.
        
           | nimbleplum40 wrote:
           | This is one of the biggest benefits to working from the
           | office, at least for me. The mental shift between home and
           | work is so much easier when they are very distinct physical
           | places.
        
             | shakezula wrote:
             | I genuinely miss working in an office because of this, and
             | am looking to return to one soon, but right now it seems
             | that just about every company has a hiring freeze in place
             | for the foreseeable future.
             | 
             | A hybrid 3-4 in office / 1-2 out of office per week seems
             | to be prime for my personal and social values at work.
        
           | rejectfinite wrote:
           | Why are you on your work PC/phone after work? Or is it all
           | the same? I notice a lot of people do not have personal
           | computers anymore... like back in the 90s.
           | 
           | For home office I shut off the work PC and turn on the gaming
           | PC where I am not logged in on work accounts. Work phone on
           | disturb mode.
           | 
           | Or go take a walk.
           | 
           | Its not "impossible to shut it all out"
        
             | Bakary wrote:
             | This reminds me of a fairly insightful meme: Tired of
             | looking at Bad screen, can't wait to get home to look at
             | Good screen
        
               | the_only_law wrote:
               | Back when I worked my last job. I'd find that when work
               | was scarce (pretty common mostly thanks to an
               | impenetrable bureaucracy) My brain would wake up and I
               | would suddenly feel motivated to think about and work on
               | new projects, then I'd get home and for some reason not
               | have the energy and just pass out instead.
        
               | Bakary wrote:
               | Perhaps a contributing factor is that when stuck at work
               | you have a limited range of options that don't include
               | passing out whereas at home you have fewer restraints and
               | more competition from the easy solutions
        
               | the_only_law wrote:
               | That's probably exactly it.
        
             | haswell wrote:
             | > _Its not "impossible to shut it all out"_
             | 
             | I think this highly depends on the person. For me, it
             | wasn't just about enforcing separation of equipment.
             | 
             | For a time, I was using the same desk for work during the
             | day and then switching inputs on my screen to use my
             | personal gaming PC in the evenings. I still shut off
             | notifications, never had notifications on my phone, etc.
             | 
             | This wasn't enough.
             | 
             | So I set up a small desk in another part of the apartment
             | and made that the work desk. It was better than using the
             | same desk.
             | 
             | This wasn't enough.
             | 
             | I've realized that a lot of my emotional states and memory
             | recall are very anchored to where I am physically. Just
             | being in the same physical space after a stressful workday
             | was the problem. Glancing at the plant in the corner that I
             | was staring at while contemplating a challenging problem
             | earlier in the day immediately made me start thinking about
             | work again.
             | 
             | > _Or go take a walk._
             | 
             | Walking is one of the best ways I've coped. But I also live
             | in a four seasons climate, and this isn't always possible.
             | 
             | As much as I dislike the idea of going back to a physical
             | office space, I think this is one of the hidden costs of
             | WFH.
             | 
             | It's not insurmountable, but neither is it easy.
        
               | mmcdermott wrote:
               | For me, work from home didn't really change the hardest
               | things about shutting down. It has never been (again, for
               | me) the equipment or the emails or the messages, but that
               | the mind doesn't stop chewing on things. I can put away
               | the computers and go for a walk and still have my mind
               | working over whatever problems I was trying to solve. I
               | think it's an example of the mind working against itself,
               | because I enjoy solving problems but I also enjoy putting
               | work aside after hours.
        
               | rejectfinite wrote:
               | >For a time, I was using the same desk for work during
               | the day and then switching inputs on my screen to use my
               | personal gaming PC in the evenings. I still shut off
               | notifications, never had notifications on my phone, etc.
               | 
               | I mean yea I have this too but I don't actively look at
               | notifications. I'm constantly "on" and nervous but Ive
               | just been that most of my life.
               | 
               | And now I'm in office. I do not know if its gonna get
               | better.
        
         | fudged71 wrote:
         | As a burned out founder with ADHD, I took a break from tech and
         | did a year as a personal trainer at a big box gym. It was such
         | a great difference from tech work: physical movement, human
         | interaction, paper-based, etc. The high levels of
         | accountability (in addition to physical movement) were
         | extremely satisfying.
         | 
         | I dream of a future of tech work that is more similar to the
         | gym, rather than sitting at a desk. Some kind of augmented
         | reality work space where you intentionally add physical
         | friction (reaching, pulling, pushing), physical objects, human
         | interactions, etc and lots of standing. I imagine the mental
         | rewards of this approach would be really interesting, and you
         | might finish the work day feeling physically energized.
        
           | jay_kyburz wrote:
           | I'm in tech and work from home. I own the home. I get heaps
           | of physical exercise gardening and maintaining the house.
           | Cutting back plants that are too big, putting new planets in.
           | Mowing the lawn. Painting here and there. I have a leak in
           | one of the bedroom ceilings. I built a deck out the back -
           | that was a big job. You know there is also just normal chores
           | around the house that keep me moving. Doing the laundry.
           | Cleaning.
           | 
           | Anyhow, I say embrace your chores. Don't pay somebody to do
           | them for you.
        
           | [deleted]
        
           | pj_mukh wrote:
           | This. So much this. Over quarantine I found myself spending
           | increasing amount of time cooking after coding time. Just
           | because the difference of doing something _productive_ with
           | your hands is so sorely missed.
           | 
           | If something bridged those two, like Minority report but with
           | even more movement, it would be gold.
           | 
           | Someone ITT mentioned warehouse jobs and workout endorphins
           | coloring our view, but I think its more missing just moving
           | things around with your hands.
        
           | Aaronstotle wrote:
           | This is a great comment, I've found myself wishing for a work
           | environment that provides us with these human elements. We
           | are animals that are designed to move!
           | 
           | Walking meetings, some type of AR technology so we can
           | perform email responses/research while moving, and physical
           | interaction with digital systems is the future I want.
        
       | dboreham wrote:
       | Years ago I had the idea to create an automated "task assigner"
       | to solve this problem. Once loaded with suitable data (perhaps a
       | hard problem), it would just feed you tasks, "Do this now", and
       | you'd do the tasks and feel happy that you had completed its
       | assigned tasks. Based on the theory that the trouble isn't with
       | doing stuff but more deciding what do do and in which order. Too
       | busy to actually write it though.
        
       | jesterswilde wrote:
       | On the other side of it, I recently decided to let go of the idea
       | of structure. I spent a large portion of my life trying to be one
       | of those structured productive people with habits and such. I
       | have a wide array of skills and none of them were gained from
       | habits and structure, they were gained from following a passion.
       | 
       | I'm happier now, my spirals are smaller, I forgive myself easier.
       | I also think I am more productive.
       | 
       | Not saying one shouldn't seek structure and try to make it for
       | themselves. If that's your path, go for it. But for me, I think
       | that ideal was harmful and hindered a lot.
        
       | Kinnard wrote:
       | Maybe it's a symptom and not the actual underlying cause. You
       | went through all the trouble to put into writing your need for
       | structure so it's off the table that your problem is that "you
       | aren't trying to implement structure in your life."
       | 
       | What else could it be?
        
       | k__ wrote:
       | A few years ago, I got the rid of (most) alarms.
       | 
       | Now, I get out of bed when I'm rested and only set alarms
       | occasionally when I have an appointment.
       | 
       | It might not be a time-based structure, but it's one that I can
       | follow indefinitely.
        
       | dexwiz wrote:
       | Structure is good, but it's really hard to self impose. Before
       | you had to do one thing: work within a structure. Having to self
       | impose means you have to do two things: create structure and then
       | do the work within it.
       | 
       | It doesn't help that advancing as a technical worker often
       | removes that structure, or forces you to create it. I am given
       | freedom as a perk of seniority, but for me it's been a burden.
        
       | foooobaba wrote:
       | Two things helped me:
       | 
       | 1. Simple organization
       | 
       | 2. Laid back mindset
       | 
       | Organization to get clarity, not to be prescriptive. To easily
       | see things like what's going on, when deadlines are, and what's
       | involved, and what you want in the first place. Organization not
       | to set a schedule, routine, time management, or anything like
       | that. It's about making things simpler.
       | 
       | Laid back mindset so I can take it easy and get things done at
       | the same time. Like working smart, not hard. Instead of trying to
       | be fast, productive, efficient, take your time, be more
       | thoughtful. It helps to naturally avoid procrastination, because
       | the thought of doing something you don't feel like isn't so
       | repulsive. You can just take your time, relax, and get it done.
       | If you avoid feeling pressured, it makes it easier to
       | concentrate, and do a better job.
       | 
       | My goal is to wake up, and not care about what day it is. I
       | really don't want to be stressed at night. I don't want to dread
       | Monday or look forward to the weekend. I don't want to be so
       | worked up that my brain looks for distractions. I don't want to
       | have to hype myself up to something.
       | 
       | Being organized helps me see what I might wanna do when I wake
       | up, and be at peace when I want to get some rest. Being laid back
       | helps me to actually start doing something and even have a chance
       | to enjoy it. It helps me to take a break when I need it, and to
       | pick it up again later. It makes it easier to be patient when
       | something is challenging.
        
       | musha68k wrote:
       | Good for them to envision a structure of their own. If they end
       | up not being able to build the habits I can only say that in case
       | of having kids you _will_ find structure alright.
       | 
       | That or you'll simply disintegrate into the void.
       | 
       | Pick life though and just do it (Atomic habits is probably a good
       | start, check durmonski.com for an efficient write up).
        
       | brador wrote:
       | 5.30am? You're not doing any brain work for the next 12 hours
       | after waking that early.
        
       | davbryn wrote:
       | Structure is important. Personally, it has been something I've
       | found more difficult to adhere to as I've gotten older and more
       | successful. When you start out in your career you find structure
       | essential: I HAD to be up early or I wouldn't make the 30 mins
       | walk to my train. I HAD to get home on time to collect my child
       | from nursery, and I couldn't risk the train being late.
       | 
       | As I've progressed in my career I've been able to afford cars. I
       | don't have to get up so early because I can work remotely. My son
       | is almost an adult and mostly looks after himself.
       | 
       | I think it is a momentum thing and you don't realise when you are
       | on that train. Younger me could wake at 4am to travel and start
       | work at 8am so he could leave early, collect his son and then go
       | to the gym.
       | 
       | Older me is lazy. My body aches, I don't have the drive I used to
       | have. I'm comfortable. But I'm not really comfortable; I'm
       | drained; I'm aching and I'm struggling to enjoy things.
       | 
       | Noone talks about the affect of the grind you have to do early on
       | in life.
        
         | SoftTalker wrote:
         | Yeah I'm about where you are, maybe a little past that. My kids
         | are at university or out on their own. I don't really have
         | rigid work hours. I can easily go to bed and sleep for 10 or 12
         | hours. I think I am slowly recovering from about three decades
         | of sleep deprivation.
        
       | nashashmi wrote:
       | Once had a field job where I did nothing about it after I left.
       | And then I had a new job where I was working at a desk and still
       | continued to work after I went home. The latter job I aged
       | considerably. While in the former, I was in the best health. But
       | man, there were some days that I had to fight to get up in the
       | morning after tiring myself the previous day. Little did I know
       | it was keeping me young.
       | 
       | Routines are important. Even if artificial.
        
       | cm_silva wrote:
       | It's ok to not have structure, but if you feel that the way you
       | are leading your life is not working, then perhaps it is time to
       | change.
       | 
       | I found that, when I was feeling overwhelmed, it was because I
       | was not making choices.
       | 
       | Or, in other words, I was not saying "No" to enough things, so
       | that I had too much on my plate.
       | 
       | I found that choices were hard to make but, once I started
       | simplifying my life by removing elements from it, I started to
       | get a lot more focus.
       | 
       | That focus allowed me to find the motivation and direction that I
       | had needed all my life, but which I never thought I was missing.
       | 
       | Feeling unsatisfied with one's life can really be a great
       | blessing ;-)
        
       | mcculley wrote:
       | "Be regular and orderly in your life, so that you may be violent
       | and original in your work." --Gustave Flaubert
        
       | reciprocate wrote:
       | I've been reading through "I Didn't Do the Thing Today", which is
       | in a lot of ways a rejection of the prevailing productivity
       | sentiment. It's about self-care and treating yourself with grace,
       | even when things don't come out as the most profitable or
       | productive, at least so far.
       | 
       | And in that spirit I'll say to the author of this post: It's okay
       | to nap in the middle of the day, or not eat breakfast, or work
       | first thing in the morning and not do a Morning Page or
       | Meditation or whatever aspirational-you has decided is
       | worthwhile. We are all doing our best in the circumstances we
       | have.
       | 
       | In my life I've found that better is really a game of averages.
       | Some days are going to be great. Some weeks have a severe
       | downward trend with no real reason that I can tell. Well. Maybe
       | it's due to bad sleep quality or lack of exercise. All I can do
       | is try to be the person that makes the good decisions and accept
       | the person that I am, and that keeps me pretty happy.
        
       | nightpool wrote:
       | This is a weird article. It has almost no content, and is just a
       | small personal journal entry. It has the exact same sign-off as a
       | different personal journal entry (with slightly more context)
       | that got front-page exposure earlier today, and submitted by the
       | exact same person:
       | https://news.ycombinator.com/user?id=memorable, who is a
       | developer for the blogging software these articles were authored
       | with. Feels like a weird / non-genuine stealth marketing
       | campaign.
        
       | odd_noises wrote:
       | This is literally me! Why are we like this??
        
       | odd_noises wrote:
       | This is literally me! Why are like this??
        
       | Animats wrote:
       | Join the Army.
        
         | insightcheck wrote:
         | It doesn't seem that there are many software development
         | positions (which is relevant for many users here) in the
         | (assuming US) army or military in general.
        
           | Animats wrote:
           | The Space Force is hiring devs and data scientists.[1] What
           | they mostly do, after all, is collect huge amounts of data
           | from various sensors and try to make sense of it. With
           | college and engineering training, go for an officer
           | position.[2]
           | 
           | [1] https://fcw.com/defense/2022/05/space-force-bring-data-
           | scien...
           | 
           | [2] https://www.spaceforce.com/military-careers/cyberspace-
           | opera...
        
           | rcarr wrote:
           | I imagine the signals or intelligence corps will take you in
           | a heart beat providing you don't have a history of mental
           | illness or some other condition that disallows entry such as
           | autism. They were even contemplating lowering the fitness
           | test requirements for devs because they were that desperate
           | to recruit. At least that's what I heard over here in the UK
           | about our military. I thought about joining long and hard but
           | ultimately decided it wasn't for me.
        
       | blueyes wrote:
       | Sunsama did a really great job of helping me adopt new habits
       | that brought more structure to my work day.
       | 
       | https://www.sunsama.com/
       | 
       | But you need to enforce your own bedtime and waking time to make
       | it effective.
        
       | omgmajk wrote:
       | I struggle a lot with structure, I find that I am the most
       | productive when things get really chaotic and random and I get
       | flung in to a project or work item that I have no idea what's
       | going on with. I think I'm quite weird that way but I know some
       | other people who like that approach too. This goes for my life
       | outside of work as well, forced structure feels strange to me.
        
       | posharma wrote:
       | What is so special about this blog? Why is it getting so much
       | attention?
        
         | Apocryphon wrote:
         | People identify with the predicament.
        
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