[HN Gopher] The PS5 Has Been Jailbroken
___________________________________________________________________
The PS5 Has Been Jailbroken
Author : mihau
Score : 691 points
Date : 2022-10-03 09:43 UTC (13 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.glitched.online)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.glitched.online)
| robertlagrant wrote:
| It's surprising that they deploy all of that debug stuff onto the
| console and then hide the switch behind a big lock to be picked.
| Why not just not deploy it?
| entropy_ wrote:
| I'd guess a lot of it is in hardware and firmware which would
| be very costly to change that late into the development cycle
| capableweb wrote:
| Not to mention it can break stuff. If QA tested everything
| with the debug stuff being on the console but temporarily
| hidden, that's how you want to deploy it as well, otherwise
| you're gonna have retest and surely fix a bunch of stuff
| before deploying.
|
| Yes yes, systems should not act like that, probably means
| everything is too tied together. But real world systems do
| act like that, especially in things with not too high stakes
| and with high focus on shipping stuff quickly.
| mariusmg wrote:
| Apparently the debug stuff are needed for servicing. Plus if
| someone manages to run custom code, having the debug options or
| not becomes irrelevant.
| robertlagrant wrote:
| > Apparently the debug stuff are needed for servicing
|
| Yeah, that makes sense. I'd have thought it would be better
| to have an ephemeral debug client that's deployed from remote
| if you have the key to the big lock, but perhaps that's for
| the PS6.
|
| > Plus if someone manages to run custom code, having the
| debug options or not becomes irrelevant.
|
| Agreed, but it might be harder as they have to write custom
| tooling to inspect the system.
| bpye wrote:
| I can't speak to PlayStation but on Xbox switching into (at
| least a limited) development mode just requires the right cert
| [0].
|
| [0] - https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/uwp/xbox-
| apps/devk...
| [deleted]
| WelcomeShorty wrote:
| https://github.com/Cryptogenic/PS5-4.03-Kernel-Exploit
|
| Fine documentation of the process and the (limitations of the)
| exploit.
| capableweb wrote:
| Seems to be a different exploit, since the one you linked
| mentions you can't run arbitrary code with it nor install
| custom packages, while the video in the Twitter does allow you
| to install new/overwrite packages.
| ErneX wrote:
| It's the same, the article even mentions the exploit does not
| allow code execution yet.
| lofaszvanitt wrote:
| "Often when the PS5 panics (at least in webkit context), there
| will be awful audio output as the audio buffer gets corrupted in
| some way."
|
| Hmmm... when I bought the PS5, for a few days everything was
| fine. Then it started to have garbled sounds whenever It booted
| up. If I power cycle the monitor the sound issues disappear.
|
| Couldn't bring it back to its normal state. Maybe just some
| quirks with the monitor... maybe someone is sitting inside my PS
| ;D. Monitor has no issues with the Xbox.
| alpaca128 wrote:
| At least it's only on boot. My Xbox controller's headphone jack
| only produces garbled sounds. It also has the wobbliest
| headphone jack I've ever seen. No bluetooth headphone support
| even though the console transmits audio to the controller using
| bluetooth. The only other option to output audio is the HDMI-
| connected screen, but that disables volume controls. The volume
| controls that always take 10-15 keypresses to reach because
| it's the very last entry of the menu and the cursor can't loop
| around.
| alrlroipsp wrote:
| Or maybe the explanation can be found in the snippet you
| quoted.
| lofaszvanitt wrote:
| Yeah, that's the most plausible explanation. It might store
| some thing that sticks after factory reset.
| kristofferR wrote:
| > "This exploit achieves read/write, but not code execution. This
| is because we cannot currently dump kernel code for gadgets, as
| kernel .text pages are marked as eXecute Only Memory (XOM).
| Attempting to read kernel .text pointers will panic!
|
| > As per the above + the hypervisor (HV) enforcing kernel write
| protection, this exploit also cannot install any patches or hooks
| into kernel space, which means no homebrew-related code for the
| time being." [1]
|
| So yeah, it's not a full jailbreak yet.
|
| [1] https://github.com/Cryptogenic/PS5-4.03-Kernel-Exploit
| Ruq wrote:
| This reminds me of a meme.
|
| > PS5 User: hey can I install a SSH server on my PlayStation? >
| Sony: NOOOOOO YOU CAN'T DO THAT THAT'S' ILLEGAL WE'LL SUE YOU FOR
| VIOLATING TOS
|
| > Steam Deck User: hey can I install a SSH server on my Steam
| Deck? > Valve: It's already included. Have fun.
| sorenjan wrote:
| That's not a meme, that's a joke.
| [deleted]
| roastedpeacock wrote:
| Certain others can elaborate further but back during the
| tenure of the PS3 Sony did attempt to prosecute individuals
| for publishing research into exploiting it. So not entirely a
| joke/meme.
| ChrisRR wrote:
| A meme is something that becomes popular and gets passed
| around. A joke can be a meme
| dabedee wrote:
| A meme is necessarily a joke but a joke is not necessarily a
| meme. A meme often, but not always, has a visual component to
| it. A meme is a cultural phenomenon. It is shared virally and
| evolves in the process.
|
| EDIT: After reading the Wikipedia page like the two people
| that replied to me, it is now clear to me that a meme is not
| necessarily a joke.
| wtcactus wrote:
| I strongly disagree. Meme is a term coined by Richard
| Dawkins in his book The Selfish Gene, defining the idea of
| unit of cultural knowledge.
|
| Basically, it's the smallest unit of cultural information.
| In the same sense as Gene it's the smallest unit of genetic
| information.
|
| That's why it's pronounced Meme as in Gene.
|
| None of this necessarily implies a joke.
| Bjartr wrote:
| You've got the technical definition correct, but the vast
| majority of usage of the term meme today is the
| colloquial usage, which is centered on humor, and has
| only a passing similarity to Dawkins' idea. Really, it's
| used today as a replacement term for what used to be
| called an "image macro", but also extends to cover video
| content.
|
| For better or worse, that ship has sailed. Convincing
| people otherwise is going to go about as well as
| convincing them to not use "literally" in a figurative
| sense.
| Shared404 wrote:
| And unfortunately, that is literally impossible :P
| blowski wrote:
| Check out the book "There Is No Antimemetics Division". A
| brilliant tour of all things meme (and anti-meme).
| antiterra wrote:
| From my online gaming experience, Gen Z seems to be
| adopting new usage of 'meme' that is decoupled it from
| virality. It's used to discredit something as being a joke,
| falsehood or myth.
|
| Wiktionary documents this usage since 2018:
|
| > (Internet, slang) A myth circulating as truth, such as
| ineffective practices presented as effective.
|
| > _it's a meme degree_
|
| > _jogging is a meme_
|
| https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/meme
| onionisafruit wrote:
| Meme seemed to be evolving to simply mean an image with
| some text on it. I'm glad for this new direction. At
| least it is related to the original meaning.
| LordDragonfang wrote:
| That definition is already antiquated, since that shift
| had already mostly happened by around 5 years on most
| internet platforms (internet culture evolves quick these
| days). As other commenters have mentioned, it's now
| "evolving" to be more or less synonymous with "joke"
| Shared404 wrote:
| > it's now "evolving" to be more or less synonymous with
| "joke"
|
| Or disinformation: A:
| $GROUP_I_DONT_LIKE is doing $BAD_THING B:
| dude, that's literally just a meme
|
| Which, thinking about it, is back around to almost the
| original definition.
| MichaelCollins wrote:
| An idea circulating through the population is more than
| sufficient to qualify it as a meme. "Virality", meaning
| prolific spreading, was never a necessary condition. Some
| memes are popular but some aren't, that has always been
| recognized.
|
| Also jogging is quite literally a meme, from the 60s and
| 70s. That's when the pairing of the term and activity
| became popularized and spread through the population.
| criley2 wrote:
| Opposite.
|
| A meme is NOT necessarily a joke. An "internet meme", a
| subset of memes, is generally a joke, but "meme" itself is
| a singular unit of culture, and includes many non-funny
| things
|
| I would argue also that all jokes are memes: that all jokes
| ultimately have a core meme to them.
| pdpi wrote:
| > but "meme" itself is a singular unit of culture
|
| Yup. It's not a coincidence that it sounds like "gene".
| The idea was precisely to treat it like that - memes get
| passed from generation to generation, get mutated, mix
| with other memes.
| filoleg wrote:
| Ironically enough, Metal Gear Rising: Revengeance
| videogame from 2013 had a villain character who went on a
| monologue about memes, and a lot of people were confused
| by the way he used that term. But he described that
| original Dawkins definition really well.
|
| > We are all pawns, controlled by something greater:
| Memes. The DNA of the soul. They shape our will. They are
| the culture -- they are everything we pass on. Expose
| someone to anger long enough, they will learn to hate.
| They become a carrier. Envy, greed, despair... All memes.
| All passed along.
| mbrookes wrote:
| A joke that doesn't get repeated virally isn't a meme.
| fredoliveira wrote:
| Not exactly. Memes are just cultural bits that get passed
| around, and virality is more like a measurement of how
| much they get passed around. Jokes have intrinsic memetic
| qualities (like this innate desire to get told again, for
| comedic value), which makes them great memes.
| KineticLensman wrote:
| > but "meme" itself is a singular unit of culture
|
| Yes, as per Richard Dawkins.
| uoaei wrote:
| The meme is the format, the joke is how that format is
| appropriated for humor.
| Aaargh20318 wrote:
| How is a joke not a meme, in the original sense of the word ?
| [deleted]
| hdjjhhvvhga wrote:
| It's not a joke in the sense that it's actually true. Not
| just SSH, you can install practically any Linux piece of
| software on it.
| phoe-krk wrote:
| That's not the joke, Sony's approach to their hardware is.
| Covzire wrote:
| How does Sony's approach differ from Microsoft or Apple?
| roblabla wrote:
| Microsoft has yet to totally lockdown their hardware.
| They usually provide a way to disable secureboot or to
| enroll your own keys (with a few specific exceptions).
|
| Apple's macs are also fairly open. You can install your
| own bootloader, and boot whatever you want on them.
| There's a secureboot, but it can be disabled.
|
| Of course, apple's iPhone are very similar.
| tenebrisalietum wrote:
| Apples and oranges. Microsoft's gaming consoles are very
| locked down, though I haven't been paying too much
| attention since the Xbox 360.
| dannyz wrote:
| While not a completely open experience, Microsoft does
| let you do a lot more on the newer consoles, e.g.
| https://www.howtogeek.com/703443/how-to-put-your-xbox-
| series...
| filoleg wrote:
| > With developer mode enabled on a Microsoft console,
| it's possible to install and run UWP apps. When developer
| mode is enabled, retail games and other services won't
| work.
|
| I think I can see why it hasn't been used much,
| especially given that UWP app framework has been
| deprecated not that long ago.
| 2Gkashmiri wrote:
| more like steam deck user: hey can i nuke steam os, install
| windows and play games and dual boot and and add a water cooled
| nvme drive and water cooler and replace broken parts with
| aftermarket parts? valve: lol, go ahead. its your machine, do
| whatever you like
| sylware wrote:
| PC user: hey can i nuke windows and install a mainstream
| elf/linux distro (or your own)? microsoft: ofc, you just need
| a phd in software to workaround all the efi nasty blockades
| we did put in place _for you security ofc_, that with the
| help of hardware manufacturers. Go ahead, but don't fool
| yourself, we already got your money and since you are not the
| default install on any mass sold PCs, you'll stay at 0.00001%
| (scientifically insignificant).
| 1337shadow wrote:
| Except if you count Android and servers, then Linux is the
| most deployed system in the world.
| rustybelt wrote:
| Props to Dell on this front. I just installed Mint on a
| 2018 Latitude and it was easier than installing Windows.
| Everything just works including things like shortcut keys
| for volume and brightness. With what Valve is doing with
| proton and Linux gaming support, I'm as bullish as ever on
| the linux desktop.
| danuker wrote:
| My not very technically apt parents have been using
| Manjaro with the RedmondXP theme for a few years, with
| much fewer problems than Windows.
|
| 2022 - Year of the Linux Desktop?
| teawrecks wrote:
| 2022 was finally the year for me
| 2Gkashmiri wrote:
| my anecdata. i have been running debian derivative on my
| machine for like years now and and only had to reinstall
| once because i fucked up a driver install.
|
| last week i installed the same OS on an old machine for a
| relative, on a "fresh SSD" so no dual boot nonsense and
| it had problems right out of the box. Like memory leaks
| and printers wont install because apparently sane-devel
| cannot be found by HP install utility. Long story short,
| the printer is still not installed on that machine, it
| works but i had to install some alternate software like
| system monitors instead of supplied ones. Dunno, maybe
| that one was a dud but i definitely feel the pain points
| as are being described across the spectrum. the problem
| is, if i cannot set up the machine in say half an hour
| without any tinkering, that is a win and i expect someone
| else to follow the on-screen commands but we do have a
| lot to cover and that is not in a bad way. i am a full
| time linux user so i am a part of this community but its
| not prime-time ready yet. I have installed windows 7
| thousands of times, it always works. unless there is a
| hardware issue, out of the box the system works. that is
| not true on our side.
|
| i have to say it but the last years linus-linux challenge
| needs to be appreciated and we need to do more tests like
| these and keep fixing those small and big issues.
| csdvrx wrote:
| > microsoft: ofc, you just need a phd in software to
| workaround all the efi nasty blockades we did put in
|
| That's not a fair assessment. Linux used a whitelisted
| shim, which only included accepted entries in an easy-to-
| edit/hack EFI variable. Imagine writing your secret
| password on a normal VFAT partition that any OS can
| boot/read/change. This is the equivalent.
|
| The proper way is to enroll the private keys with the bios,
| and sign the payloads yourself (or let your distribution
| handle that), which is way more secure and can be
| automatized if you select the custom secureboot.
| matheusmoreira wrote:
| > The proper way is to enroll the private keys with the
| bios
|
| Not always possible. Depends on firmware support and we
| all know how shitty proprietary firmware can be.
| csdvrx wrote:
| I have yet to see a firmware that doesn't allow me to
| enroll private keys. It's a basic UEFI features, and IIRC
| Microsoft requires that to be possible for intel
| hardware: if you don't, no Windows.
|
| When you control the keys, SecureBoot is a good thing at
| least as good as encryption!
|
| There are things that are fair to complain about, but on
| this, I don't see how Microsoft or anyone could have done
| any better to be playing nice with Linux while helping
| customers.
| matheusmoreira wrote:
| > I have yet to see a firmware that doesn't allow me to
| enroll private keys.
|
| I have computers that don't have this feature.
|
| > When you control the keys, SecureBoot is a good thing
| at least as good as encryption!
|
| I agree. It's all about who owns the keys to the machine.
| If we do, then it's all good.
| franga2000 wrote:
| > The proper way is to enroll the private keys with the
| bios
|
| But a method of doing that wasn't included in the UEFI
| standard for obvious Microsoft reasons, so few vendors
| support it and those that do usually don't do it
| correctly, let alone in a standardised way.
| account-5 wrote:
| Seems fair to me when your alternatives are install a
| signing key (for your Linux os) yourself to the EFI,
| disable secure boot, or allow MS to be the gatekeeper of
| what software can run on your PC, including the distro
| getting itself OK'd by MS with their separate OS key that
| might or might not be included by the OEM.
|
| Happy to be corrected if things have changed since the
| last time I looked at things.
| kmlx wrote:
| genuine curiosity: why would you need an SSH server on a gaming
| console?
| LeoNatan25 wrote:
| The better question is why not.
|
| As for why, here is one example: backing up and restoring
| saves and other game data.
| alerighi wrote:
| A lot of things. For example you can use it to copy files
| (moovies, music, etc) on the drive of the console to watch
| them. Or you can download data from the console itself
| (screenshots, video recordings, etc).
|
| You can use SSH to run commands to automatize things, for
| example turning off the console, launching an update,
| installing new software, etc, while not being in front of the
| TV.
|
| Finally you can use it to diagnose problems on the console,
| for example you can connect to run a diagnosis, from which
| you may find out that the hard drive is causing problems and
| you should replace it, or the console is overheating and
| thermal throttling, etc.
| deelowe wrote:
| The deck has a suite of apps that will install and configure
| whatever emulator you'd like. Then, you simply scp over roms
| and it'll also automatically add the relevant game entries to
| the steam library.
|
| That's why...
| Bluecobra wrote:
| Allowing SSH/OS access can allow fun and interesting things
| other than gaming. Back when you were allowed to run Linux on
| a PlayStation 3, you could potentially wire up bunch of these
| for some serious computing power (at the time).
|
| https://phys.org/news/2010-12-air-
| playstation-3s-supercomput...
| jasonlotito wrote:
| It's not a gaming console. It's a portable PC. That's the
| design philosophy behind Steam Deck. It's even marketed that
| way:
|
| "All-in-one portable PC gaming"
|
| https://www.steamdeck.com/en/
|
| There is a great interview with one of the designers of the
| Steam Deck here that covers this:
|
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TdX11KOP2tg
|
| Seems pedantic, but I think it's important to the discussion
| in the way we think about the Steam Deck.
| jrm4 wrote:
| Sure, but also, I'd love to get regular people buying these
| things, which is why I think "gaming console" is important.
| Let's see if we can get back to good computing and gaming,
| where you give up a little convenience for a ton of power
| and possibility.
| jasonlotito wrote:
| I'm sorry, but this doesn't make sense within the context
| of "why do you need an SSH server" on a computer?
|
| > Let's see if we can get back to good computing and
| gaming, where you give up a little convenience for a ton
| of power and possibility.
|
| This doesn't make any sense to me. Please explain.
| jrm4 wrote:
| I'm very old. So good gaming/computing means devices that
| are very open by default. "SSH server" can kind of be
| shorthand for "I can get in the guts of the thing and do
| whatever I want to it"
| Narishma wrote:
| Consoles have never been open by default.
| capitainenemo wrote:
| Yup, thus the PS5 jailbreak being a cool thing. However,
| the steam deck _is_ open by default, which is a much
| bigger deal in the console world and far more exciting
| IMO.
| capitainenemo wrote:
| I'm not sure why you're being down voted because that was
| _exactly_ what drew me to the Deck. I use their client, I
| buy their games, but I also have a work environment setup
| on the desktop side, and I can still play the games I
| bought off GOG. I also bought a pass-through power USB3 hub
| off of Anker 's store on Newegg to use as a dock that fits
| nicely in the case.
| omni wrote:
| This is very handy as someone who plays randomizer ROMs, I
| have a script that can generate a bunch of new Super Metroid
| runs for me and automatically upload them. Prior to the Deck,
| this process involved manually fiddling with SD cards across
| devices.
| smoldesu wrote:
| On the Nintendo Switch, it allows you to mount your console
| as an SFTP device and wirelessly transfer your screenshots
| without even turning on the console. Pretty fun stuff,
| especially in the motley years of 2017-2019.
| mschuster91 wrote:
| What's it with Nintendo and fucking up _basic_ use cases
| anyway? Seriously, are they expecting USB-based jailbreaks
| or why not even include something _a lot_ of players have
| been shouting on the web for years now?!
| jamesgeck0 wrote:
| Yes. It's defense in depth; the 3DS was hacked dozens of
| ways over its lifetime. Via specially crafted saved games
| in some cases. There were a few media-based buffer
| overflow hacks too, iirc. The DS before that could get
| hacked by certain _sounds_ via Bangai-O Spirits level
| transfer.
| OmahaBoy69 wrote:
| >USB-based jailbreaks
|
| What kind of new-fangled hack is that? Here in Switch-
| land we just use a bit of tinfoil for our piracy needs.
| mschuster91 wrote:
| I thought that vulnerability was gone since at least
| September 2019 with the 2nd revision?
| smoldesu wrote:
| It is, but the core vulnerability of the chipset (Tegra
| X1) still exists AFAIK. Granted, you need to hardmod to
| jailbreak a Mariko model (launch models can be
| softmodded), but that's basically the same thing that
| happened with the 3DS.
| ThatPlayer wrote:
| It's a different exploit. The original exploit is an
| issue with the Tegra's recovery mode (RCM), requiring a
| USB payload to be sent to the Switch at boot every time.
|
| I believe the hardmod is a voltage glitching exploit, as
| described for the Vita here: https://yifan.lu/images/2019
| /01/Injecting_Software_Vulnerabi... . It is able to
| inject code through the onboard memory then load a
| payload from a memory card rather than USB.
| matt_s wrote:
| Need is the operative word, there isn't a need, sure there
| are technical people that want to poke around or the "because
| its mine/I can" crowd but for the vast majority of console
| players they don't even know what SSH is.
|
| I started playing games back when you had to mess with and
| resolve IRQ and DMA conflicts in DOS so I love having a
| console I can use as an appliance. You don't _need_ SSH on
| every internet connected device you own.
| furyofantares wrote:
| Well the other day my 6yo daughter was playing on the Deck
| and I SSH'd in from my phone, installed espeak, and started
| making a voice of god say whatever I wanted as she played.
| marcodiego wrote:
| Long ago my GF bought a linux laptop. She asked me install
| something, it was just an "apt-get install" away. I told
| her I had to type a few commands. She said she was busy
| now. Ok, ssh'ed into it and installed what she needed.
| lostgame wrote:
| I literally laughed out loud that this would be the
| 'example'...omigosh, too funny - I'm actually going to
| share this comment with a couple friends.
| bombcar wrote:
| Reminds me of remotely connecting to my friend's Mac and
| using 'say' to say things.
|
| And then eject the CD-ROM drive.
| techdragon wrote:
| I remember working out how to do this over the network
| with some combination of the utilities on the windows
| install when I was a student at school, I forget which
| windows exactly given it could have been any of the
| outdated 9x sort or even 2k at high school...
|
| Anyway the fun thing was combining it with the
| (surprisingly not locked down) netsend command, so my
| little remote execution script would pop the cd drive
| tray open, and then they would get an "alert" from
| netsend saying "Feed Me!!!"
|
| I wasn't the sort of kid that pulled a prank like that on
| a teacher or the whole class, but it did get some laughs
| with the small circle of fellow computer nerds that would
| spend lunch or afternoons in the library using the
| computers to fool around learning Visual Basic, or play
| 90s online games, or for the few that new me... play
| _proper_ LAN games... since I was the gatekeeper of by
| way of my perpetual habit of trying to lift the hood and
| work out how everything was setup, so I found all the fun
| network admin failures like group policy mistakes that
| left the empty second hard drive on a batch of computers
| as public read /write for anyone with local admin
| permissions on any computer on the network, or setting a
| local machine folder I had sufficient permissions to, to
| be network accessible if you had the machine IP, or
| telling them which computers I had left the burned cd
| copies of the games in (which were fully portable!, bless
| the pre-network connected DRM days)
|
| Ahh youthful fun!
| CoastalCoder wrote:
| > And then eject the CD-ROM drive.
|
| The whole drive??? Man, you guys played hardball.
| myself248 wrote:
| Because I bought the hardware, end of story. I shouldn't have
| to justify what I do with it after that. Not to Nintendo, not
| to Sony, not to you, and not to a court of law.
|
| I didn't borrow it, I bought it. I pay for the power that
| lights it up, I pay for the network it connects to, I get to
| say what it does and when and how.
|
| Yes it was advertised as a gaming console, yes it came with
| some games installed and it's very good at that, but it's
| also a whole-ass computer with the potential to do whole-ass
| computer things. I'm offended by having a computer sitting
| right there that can't be used to do some task that it might
| otherwise be capable of.
|
| We'd never stand for arbitrary restrictions on other everyday
| items. Imagine if the can of soda I'm drinking could only be
| used as a drink. Oh you spilled some chemicals on yourself
| and you want to use this to rinse off quickly on your way to
| the shower? Sorry, drink output can only connected to mouth
| input, too bad about your arm. Like, what?
|
| Objects are versatile and using that versatility is the
| essence of humanity. It's why we have opposable thumbs. It's
| why we're the dominant species on the planet. Backsliding
| from that in the name of copyright or some shit is inane,
| counterproductive, and offensive to the very core of my
| being.
| [deleted]
| CoastalCoder wrote:
| > Because I bought the hardware, end of story. I shouldn't
| have to justify what I do with it after that. Not to
| Nintendo, not to Sony, not to you, and not to a court of
| law.
|
| I wonder if you misunderstood the GP's question.
|
| I don't think they were asking, "Why, as the manufacturer,
| should we consider your desire reasonable?".
|
| I think they were asking, "As a fellow computer user, I'd
| like to better understand something interesting, and it
| sounds like you might be up to something interesting."
| Naracion wrote:
| This is also how I interpreted it, perhaps because I am
| also intrigued and want to know (my Steam Deck just
| shipped earlier today).
| mirkules wrote:
| Personally, I use SSH to poke around. 99% of the time, I
| look at the directory structure, maybe learn something
| and then shrug with a "that was cool" and never look at
| it again. But there's always that 1% where I find
| something truly interesting...
| babypuncher wrote:
| I would argue that you just shouldn't buy a PlayStation.
|
| For Sony's customers, part of the appeal of a console is
| the locked down nature. Cheating in multiplayer games is
| far less prevalent in newer consoles because of this, and
| even when the consoles do get cracked wide open, the
| barrier to entry is usually high enough to make cheating a
| pretty rare occurrence. This is all accomplished without
| making the user install a kernel-mode driver on the same
| computer they likely use to file their taxes.
|
| I'll also point out that unlike what the GP insinuated,
| Sony won't actually sue you for running an SSH server on
| your PS5.
| monksy wrote:
| I don't think he said he planned on exploiting the
| network play.
|
| > Sony won't actually sue you for running an SSH server
| on your PS5.
|
| But they might ban your console or try to brick it in
| some way. (i've heard of network bans but not bricking..
| but I wouldn't put it passed them)
| babypuncher wrote:
| So the problem is, once you detect a user is running
| arbitrary unsigned code on their system, how do you
| differentiate between them using that capability for
| cheating or running the world's most convoluted SSH
| server? Once the system is compromised, you don't really
| know what the user is doing, and as such any network
| traffic cannot really be trusted.
| monksy wrote:
| Prevent them from logging into your network. (You own
| your network)
|
| You own the device. Whatever you do with it is up to you.
| (Despite their whining about how "you only own a license
| to posses the device")
| majani wrote:
| If you were a game dev who had toiled for years on a game
| you hoped to sell, you wouldn't be talking this way
| matheusmoreira wrote:
| Same reason I need a terminal on Linux: to have access to
| everything in the computer, not just the stuff exposed in the
| GUI.
|
| I can also easily transfer files between systems that way. I
| do this with my phone, it's so easy to connect via the
| network and copy files, no need to deal with USB stuff. Ever
| tried to transfer a video or screenshot from PS4 to any other
| device? Easiest method I found was making a PSN chat group,
| asking the other person to leave the group and then using it
| to share the data to myself so I can see it on my phone at a
| lower quality. It's so stupid.
| rowanG077 wrote:
| I can think of many cases where you would want to do that.
| Remotely start download of a game, pull save files of it, Add
| a movie or series to watch, turn off remotely in case you
| forget and many others.
| filoleg wrote:
| Not disagreeing with the overall premise that having SSH on
| PS5 is pretty cool, but a lot of those things you mentioned
| are available without SSH on it already.
|
| You can kick off download of a game through the official
| app. Which will also notify you when the game is ready to
| play and then when it is fully downloaded. You can also see
| which games you have installed already and free up space by
| deleting some of them. And the last thing, you can also use
| the app to download the recent screenshots and video clips
| you took of your gameplay on the console.
|
| All of this works from anywhere, as long as both your phone
| and the console have access to internet (they dont need to
| be on the same network though).
| rowanG077 wrote:
| An app is very different from ssh. I can ssh from my
| laptop. From my friends laptop. Until recently I didn't
| even own a smartphone. Apps are a terrible way to
| encapsulate this in.
| filoleg wrote:
| It isn't app-only. You can also login into PSN in your
| web browser and trigger game downloads from there too.
| Iirc Steam allows it too, so you can trigger the download
| on the go from any web browser, and it starts downloading
| on your machine at home.
| jrm4 wrote:
| Literally YESTERDAY used ssh to pop my favorite emulated
| games onto my Steam Deck from my main computer. Didn't have
| to touch the Deck.
| dfxm12 wrote:
| If the console is properly designed, it's more of a want than
| a need. Even if the focus here is more on startups, this
| website is called _hacker_ news after all.
| crote wrote:
| Because you can.
|
| By not forbidding things like this, it can become more than
| just a gaming console. For example, you might end up buying
| one second-hand with a broken screen and using it as a home
| server - it even comes with its own UPS battery!
| nonrandomstring wrote:
| > it can become more than just a gaming console
|
| First thing I thought reading this headline... "That's a
| few thousand metric tons of e-waste that won't be going
| into a landfill soon".
|
| I've little interest in gaming or PS5 hardware TBH. But the
| entire conceit of locked-down appliances that could be
| reused as general purpose devices, but are deliberately
| hobbled, is abhorrent to me.
|
| IN 2022, with what we know about climate change, pollution
| and e-waste, locking devices is simply spiteful and must be
| made illegal.
|
| Well done to the team that cracked PS5
| chuckSu wrote:
| rosnd wrote:
| >First thing I thought reading this headline... "That's a
| few thousand metric tons of e-waste that won't be going
| into a landfill soon".
|
| This is delusional. In the real world a jailbreak won't
| meaningfully extend a consoles lifetime.
|
| >But the entire conceit of locked-down appliances that
| could be reused as general purpose devices, but are
| deliberately hobbled, is abhorrent to me.
|
| People aren't going to take PS5s and reuse them as
| general purpose devices at any meaningful scale.
| yamazakiwi wrote:
| Not with regulations preventing this market from
| realization obviously.
|
| People are not going to take PS5's and reuse them but if
| it was legal to build products around PS4's reuse you can
| bet your ass a sizeable amount of PS5 users would love to
| make use of their old hardware. It would take a while for
| killer apps/products to release but stifling it before
| there's a chance seems like a huge waste to me.
|
| I understand your pessimism but in this case I ask you to
| dream a little more.
| prvit wrote:
| > if it was legal to build products around PS4's reuse
| you can bet your ass a sizeable amount of PS5 users would
| love to make use of their old hardware
|
| The fact that people aren't already doing so with regular
| general purpose computers seems to entirely discredit
| this theory, no?
| ajford wrote:
| What rock are you under?
|
| There's a massive second-hand market for many general
| purpose computers. Plenty of people, myself included, buy
| used hardware almost exclusively.
|
| Beyond that, many people are creating home theater PCs,
| home labs, home automation systems, arcade cabinets,
| custom car audio head units, drink robots, and more using
| commodity hardware. Often times these are reused
| hardware, which cuts the cost on hardware by a
| significant margin.
|
| Just because you don't see it happening doesn't mean it's
| not happening.
| ajford wrote:
| Before Sony stripped Linux from the PS3, they were being
| used to build super computers. Heck, my undergrad program
| tried getting on that hype train and we got two PS3s
| running YellowDog linux and were starting to put together
| a grant proposal for a small compute cluster when Sony
| broke the news.
|
| If you've ever used Kodi, it started as the "XBox Media
| Center" project. So Kodi would probably not be what it is
| today without people jailbreaking the OG XBox so they
| could use it for a media "PC".
|
| People are still playing Quake Arena, Doom, and other og
| XBox games on real hw, thanks to jailbreaking. With root
| access users are able to patch the games so they can be
| pointed at community servers to replace the deprecated
| XBox Live servers that used to power the online
| multiplayer.
|
| Similarly, we're seeing a bunch of games from the last
| couple of generations that reach out to company servers
| that are now being shut down. Jailbreaking provides life
| extension in some of these cases as well.
| prvit wrote:
| >Before Sony stripped Linux from the PS3, they were being
| used to build super computers. Heck, my undergrad program
| tried getting on that hype train and we got two PS3s
| running YellowDog linux and were starting to put together
| a grant proposal for a small compute cluster when Sony
| broke the news.
|
| The PS3 was built on very exotic hardware, PS5 is just a
| regular x86 computer.
|
| Playing with Linux on a PS3 at least had a bit of a
| novelty factor, with PS5 there's none.
|
| Did those PS3 supercomputers end up being a good
| investment? Probably not.
|
| > If you've ever used Kodi, it started as the "XBox Media
| Center" project. So Kodi would probably not be what it is
| today without people jailbreaking the OG XBox so they
| could use it for a media "PC".
|
| The market has moved long past that. The OG Xbox had
| something to offer that you couldn't easily get
| elsewhere, that's not the case anymore.
|
| > People are still playing Quake Arena, Doom, and other
| og XBox games on real hw
|
| A handful of hardcore enthusiasts.
| ajford wrote:
| > Did those PS3 supercomputers end up being a good
| investment? Probably not.
|
| In our analysis at the time, it was an economical
| supercomputer that could hit our needs. It doesn't have
| to be the best investment, just a decent one at the time.
| You seem to entirely discount the fact that sometimes the
| journey is just as important.
|
| In this case, half the purpose behind the grant proposal
| was education and outreach engagement. The novelty of
| using PS3s was enough to get some traction with local
| highschool students and introduce them to computing
| topics in new ways.
|
| > The market has moved long past that. The OG Xbox had
| something to offer that you couldn't easily get
| elsewhere, that's not the case anymore.
|
| And who's to say people experimenting with the PS5 won't
| be creating something new we'll be talking about in 10
| years? These are powerful machines, why artificially
| restrict what they can do?
|
| Homebrew alone gives people ways to play with hardware
| they wouldn't normally be able to experiment with.
|
| > A handful of hardcore enthusiasts.
|
| ~5k active participants in the Insignia community is more
| than a handful. Sure, it's not hundreds of thousands but
| it's not exactly public yet either. And there are
| thousands in similar communities for the PS Vita,
| Nintendo 3DS, and Wii to name a few. Either way, these
| communities directly demonstrate that jailbreaking
| hardware does indeed extend a console's lifetime.
| prvit wrote:
| >You seem to entirely discount the fact that sometimes
| the journey is just as important.
|
| I don't. I very much acknowledge that the PS3 was a very
| novel piece of hardware, but the same doesn't apply to
| consoles in general.
|
| >And who's to say people experimenting with the PS5 won't
| be creating something new we'll be talking about in 10
| years? These are powerful machines, why artificially
| restrict what they can do?
|
| They might, no doubt. But there's nothing novel about
| developing on a PS5, at least the original Xbox offered a
| unique form factor in its price bracket.
|
| >Homebrew alone gives people ways to play with hardware
| they wouldn't normally be able to experiment with.
|
| Yes, but PS5 hardware is just regular PC hardware. It's
| not exotic and exciting like the PS3 or Xbox were.
|
| >~5k active participants in the Insignia community is
| more than a handful. Sure, it's not hundreds of thousands
| but it's not exactly public yet either. And there are
| thousands in similar communities for the PS Vita,
| Nintendo 3DS, and Wii to name a few. Either way, these
| communities directly demonstrate that jailbreaking
| hardware does indeed extend a console's lifetime.
|
| These are communities consisting of some thousands of
| people, but we're talking about hardware that sells 100+
| million units.
| Fargren wrote:
| Maybe not in wealthy countries. In Argentina hacked PS2s
| are still pretty commonly used, and repair shops service
| them (OK, maybe not anymore? I left six years ago). Jail-
| breaking absolutely extends the lifetime of consoles.
| deaddodo wrote:
| > I've little interest in gaming or PS5 hardware TBH. But
| the entire conceit of locked-down appliances that could
| be reused as general purpose devices, but are
| deliberately hobbled, is abhorrent to me.
|
| I don't mind the idea of a closed platform for 5-10
| years. But I do feel there should be legislation to
| sunset all devices as open. It's a shame we still have
| reverse-engineering efforts on 40+ year old computing
| devices.
| mildmotive wrote:
| As long as there are poorly regulated countries to dump
| the e-waste in arbitrary limitations are working just
| fine.
| danjoredd wrote:
| Same reason someone would install Linux on a Playstation 2 or
| a PS3. Sometimes its just because you can, not because its
| actually a good solution.
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linux_for_PlayStation_2
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OtherOS
| tenebrisalietum wrote:
| If it can run an SSH server, it doesn't just have to be a
| gaming console.
| ngcazz wrote:
| Well, I for one want to see if I can enable a god mode for
| Returnal. 25 hours in I still haven't made it past the third
| boss!
| opan wrote:
| Allows easy file access with sftp and sshfs, can be used to
| kill a misbehaving program from your phone or PC if you're
| stuck on a black screen, can be used to monitor resource
| usage from another machine.
| roblabla wrote:
| Modding comes to mind. By having an ssh connection, you can
| potentially do remote debugging of a mod, among other fun
| stuff.
| belthesar wrote:
| Something that I don't think folks consider the perspective of
| is that the big console manufacturers often act in the same
| vein that third party DRM/Anti-Tamper firms like Denuvo do in
| establishing relationships with publishers. Part of the value
| proposition with releasing on a console is that the platform
| provides a reasonable duty to protect sales, and they
| incentivize that themselves by the sales structure. Most
| consoles are sold at a loss, with revenue being made up largely
| through title sales. This puts the game publisher and the
| console manufacturer on the same team in ensuring that sales
| are protected, and as such decisions are made to tightly
| control what software can run on these otherwise incredibly
| powerful, compact machines.
|
| Do want to clarify, I personally don't think it's the right
| play overall, but it's the play Sony, Microsoft and Nintendo
| have been making for years. Now let's look at Valve.
|
| Valve took their distribution platform, which already runs in
| lawless country on the largely unrestricted platform of PCs,
| and made a console experience for that with Steam Deck. Valve
| isn't incentivized to lock down the Deck any more than a PC is
| locked down, which is to say not very much at all. As a result,
| they can much more easily advocate for Right to Repair,
| modding, software customization, the works, because their
| existing market dominance as the biggest PC games distributor
| gives them that weight to throw around.
|
| I'm happy that Valve isn't locking down Deck to customization
| in anticipation of shifting winds to get folks to target the
| platform, but we really can't call this an apples-to-apples
| comparison. Two very different companies with two very
| different histories of deal making with game publishers having
| latitude to do two very different styles of hardware control.
| smoldesu wrote:
| FWIW, Valve is probably _also_ selling the Steam Deck at a
| loss. $400 for an Xbox One-tier AMD chipset in a nice-feeling
| controller case? Something tells me they 're not banking on
| hardware margins to sell this console any more than Nintendo
| did with the Switch. Valve's real boon (IMO) is that they're
| teaching the rest of the industry how they should operate -
| first-party app stores can charge whatever fees they want for
| convenience, as long as third-parties have the same degree of
| control over the hardware. And guess what: it worked! The
| fact that Valve is talking about Steam Deck successors means
| they're not losing too much money, and I think it makes sense
| financially. If Valve takes 10-30% of every game bought on
| Steam, the amount they're making from Deck users must be
| _monumental_. I 'd bet anyone 10:1 that there's a dashboard
| internally at Valve tracking how much money they've made from
| purchases directly on Deck hardware.
| mjevans wrote:
| I think they might have been taking a small loss on the 400
| USD unit, though with bulk production maybe it was closer
| to 0% margin initially. Just a gut feeling as someone not
| in the hardware fabrication specialization.
|
| An IGN article breaks down the replacement kit parts that
| were, presumably, offered with a profit baked in.
| https://www.ign.com/articles/ifixit-replacement-parts-
| steam-...
| monksy wrote:
| > Most consoles are sold at a loss, with revenue being made
| up largely through title sales.
|
| This is only the case for when the console gets released. The
| hardware stays fixed through it's life span and the cost of
| old tech either gets more efficient, the manufacturing
| process becomes more efficient, or the parts get cheaper.
| (With exceptions to disasters that spike ram production or
| halt chip production)
|
| Hardware Refreshes: I'm sure someone is going to mention
| that. Those are pretty much entirely new console releases ..
| but you rarely ever get to take advantage of the new
| performance improvements.
| CamperBob2 wrote:
| I seriously doubt this. The most expensive parts like CPUs
| and GPUs don't get cheaper. Their pricing for the entire
| life cycle is most likely negotiated and locked in at
| design time, in fact.
|
| No one, not even Sony, can build PS5-class hardware and
| sell it at a profit for $500 at retail... not at launch
| time, and not on the last day of the product life cycle.
| Attach rate isn't everything in the console business, it's
| the _only_ thing.
| somenameforme wrote:
| They've been selling them at profit since the middle of
| last year [1], following the trend set the previous gen
| of consoles making profit on hardware in less than a
| year. Things in gaming, both in terms of prices and how
| consoles approach the business, has changed quite
| radically in the past ~decade.
|
| [1] - https://www.pcmag.com/news/sony-says-499-ps5-no-
| longer-sells...
| [deleted]
| squeaky-clean wrote:
| PS4 units were profitable to sell after roughly a year
|
| https://www.polygon.com/platform/amp/2014/5/23/5744344/ps
| 4-a...
|
| > From a profitability perspective, PS4 is also already
| contributing profit on a hardware unit basis,
| establishing a very different business framework from
| that of previous platform businesses.
| jjoonathan wrote:
| Sony has other monetization levers too, like that time on PS4
| they pushed a mandatory, irreversible update that dropped
| support for a bunch of HDMI codecs, effectively downgrading
| millions of TVs overnight.
|
| They got me. I went and bought a new TV. Not a Sony, but
| aggregate demand still affects prices.
| alerighi wrote:
| > This puts the game publisher and the console manufacturer
| on the same team in ensuring that sales are protected, and as
| such decisions are made to tightly control what software can
| run on these otherwise incredibly powerful, compact machines.
|
| There were consoles, for example the original Xbox, that
| while inferior to the counterpart had success only because
| the modding community and homebrew software that you could
| have used on them. To the console manufacturer opening up
| (like how Microsoft is slowly doing) to homebrew software is
| in the end a good thing, not a bad one.
| vario wrote:
| what does it mean "jailbreaking" a gadget, esp a PS5? noob here.
| Ruq wrote:
| It comes from the idea that certain products are "locked down"
| to where you cannot do anything else with it but what the
| manufacturer provisions. Jailbreaking means you gain complete
| control over the device, so that you can do anything else you
| want with it.
|
| I believe the term either originally came from, or was at least
| popularized by people wanting to escape Apple's "walled
| garden", which is also viewed by some as a jail.
| vario wrote:
| noirscape wrote:
| Gaining arbitrary code execution.
|
| Modern game consoles (but lots of other devices, including
| Apple's iOS, which used to have one of the most restrictive
| environments to develop applications on - it's slightly better
| these day - as well) restrict the sort of code you're allowed
| to run on it to only what the manufacturer allows you to run.
|
| "Jailbreaking" in this context means that you can bypass those
| sorts of restrictions, with the implementation of what that
| entails differing per device.
|
| The alternate term you often hear used for this sort of hacking
| (and slightly older since it predates the iphone) is Homebrew.
| vario wrote:
| dewey wrote:
| Usually that you can then run custom code, or by extension
| sometimes pirated software.
| vario wrote:
| alienchow wrote:
| Based on prior works, I assume it means you can access the PS5
| root. i.e. you can run anything you want on a jail broken PS5
| as opposed to just what Sony wants you to run.
| vario wrote:
| kristofferR wrote:
| I was unfamiliar with the term gadget in this context too, it
| seems to refer to an exploitation technique to bypass ASLR:
|
| https://ctf101.org/binary-exploitation/return-oriented-
| progr....
|
| https://trustfoundry.net/2019/07/18/basic-rop-techniques-and...
| [deleted]
| ethbr0 wrote:
| Of the top of my head (not my primary space), a gadget is a
| piece of code at a known or guessable location that provides
| specific functionality.
|
| This is important as modern no-execute et al. prevent you
| from simply dumping arbitrary code into memory and running
| it.
|
| Consequently, modern exploits tend to look like: (1) figure
| out how memory is laid out, or close enough, (2) calculate
| where a useful function is, that you can call with arbitrary
| parameters (aka a gadget), (3) abuse that function to do your
| bidding by controlling its parameters and the instruction
| pointer.
|
| (2) gets around your inability to write + execute code
| directly, because the system is by definition already set up
| to allow built-in code to execute. And that built-in code
| generally does lots of useful things (like reading and
| writing memory).
|
| ASLR makes (1) harder, but fundamental efficiency reasons at
| the operating system code level mean than usually
| "everything" isn't fully randomized.
| _kbh_ wrote:
| > Of the top of my head (not my primary space), a gadget is
| a piece of code at a known or guessable location that
| provides specific functionality.
|
| > Consequently, modern exploits tend to look like: (1)
| figure out how memory is laid out, or close enough, (2)
| calculate where a useful function is, that you can call
| with arbitrary parameters (aka a gadget), (3) abuse that
| function to do your bidding by controlling its parameters
| and the instruction pointer.
|
| This is all correct, but generally a gadget is what a
| snippet of assembly / machine code that you call to get the
| CPU into a state to call a function. So its less a function
| and more a set of instructions (anywhere) that are useful.
|
| So for example, you might have a gadget to set specific
| registers with values off the stack so you can call malloc
| with the correct size, etc.
| ethbr0 wrote:
| Thanks for the clarification! I figure if someone is
| curious enough + looks up links on their own, giving them
| a good answer is only fair. :)
| P5fRxh5kUvp2th wrote:
| Well back in my day ... _slips in dentures* a gadget was
| just a generic thing you played around with and did a
| thing.
|
| Now get the hell off my lawn you whippersnappers, before
| I throw my teef at you._
| mikepurvis wrote:
| I don't know if this is intentional, but my brain has always
| connected the word back to the codename used for the nuclear
| bomb research being done during WWII:
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gadget_(disambiguation)#Scienc.
| ..
|
| The idea being that a code "gadget" is something similarly
| small and innocuous-looking that turns out to have far, far
| more powerful effects than anyone would guess just by looking
| at it.
| vario wrote:
| matheusmoreira wrote:
| The PS5 is not actually yours, it belongs to Sony. They're just
| generously allowing you to use it to run very specific software
| you have licensed. They own the keys to the machine and they
| determine what you can do with it. Actually calling it a
| computer is an insult to the term, it's more like a video game
| playing appliance that happens to contain a computer inside.
|
| Jailbreaking means taking control. It means unlocking the
| computer within so that it becomes a true general purpose
| computer. It means being able to run your own software, not
| just what they approve. It means being able to circumvent their
| DRM if you want.
| vario wrote:
| zagrebian wrote:
| That reminds me of a video that I watched a few months ago about
| how an earlier generation of PlayStation got jailbroken very late
| in its lifecycle because Sony decided to disable Linux (or
| something like that, I don't remember). As long as that feature
| was available, nobody cared to hack the console because they
| could do what they want, but as soon as Sony pulled the feature,
| the console was hacked in a very short time.
| knorker wrote:
| PS3.
|
| Disabling Linux, as I remember it, basically instantly got it
| jailbroken.
|
| Suddenly not just pirates out to save/make money, but hobbyists
| too, wanted to break it.
| yebyen wrote:
| Yeah, hobbyists like the US Air Force Research Lab
|
| (I imagine, I don't have any info to suggest they actually
| had to literally jailbreak their PS3s in order to build their
| supercomputer, but just making a jab)
|
| If it's good enough for the USAF, it should be good enough
| for hobbyists to have a go around with it!
| lapser wrote:
| I think USAF and other companies were likely part of the
| reason Sony removed Linux support. Generally, a PS3 was a
| lot cheaper than the equivalent PC/server.
|
| Sony typically sells consoles at a loss and makes profits
| from the game sales. The likes of USAF, researchers, and
| other companies were buying PS3s in bulk, and using OtherOS
| functionality without utilizing the primary use of PS3s:
| games. Often these projects didn't need any GPU power, and
| OtherOS had nearly full access to the CPU (iirc it had
| access to the main PPE and 7 out of 8 SPEs). Thus, Sony
| likely was not making enough money from the consoles USAF
| et al. bought.
| dylan604 wrote:
| Now, if only someone could figure out how to make a
| printer useful in ways other than putting ink to paper in
| the same manner
| ygjb wrote:
| idk, after 20 years of experience in the security field,
| I have seen more than one enterprise printer put to other
| uses by bad guys :P
| dylan604 wrote:
| Bad guys playing Doom by chance?
| ygjb wrote:
| As fun as things like that are, AFAIK most of those types
| of PoC exploits are done using SOHO printers. There are
| two specific cases I am thinking of, one where a pile of
| extremely confidential data was captured by pulling
| documents that had been sent to a printer for printing or
| faxing; in that case it was an insider who was copying
| docs they shouldn't have access to. In the other case it
| was a pretty nifty attack where the attacker was able to
| pivot using credentials taken from a printer to access
| other systems.
|
| There are also several publicly available tools that can
| be used to pop printers, and use them for other bad
| things, but it's not an area I have spent much time in
| other than from a blue team/IR perspective. Printers,
| like alot of other hardware, are usually poorly
| maintained, but at least patching has mostly gotten
| easier and most infrastructure scanning tools will report
| vulnerabilities and weaknesses in them now.
| dredmorbius wrote:
| I suspect Monopoly is a better game model.
| yebyen wrote:
| IMO that is Sony's problem, selling special purpose
| hardware that could be general purpose but locking it
| down so that your business model is secure... after the
| point of sale... seems a bit sneaky.
|
| I enjoyed many hours of gaming on the PS2 and I bought it
| (in part) because I would be able to install Linux on it.
| I still managed to become a Linux guy today, in spite of
| the rug by Sony, and I suppose there's nothing overtly
| wrong with clarifying with an update that the primary
| intended use of your product is in fact its primary
| intended use, but as a hobbyist (dang it, now I've gone
| and done that again)...
| kmeisthax wrote:
| There was actually a class-action lawsuit about this, but
| Sony played a lot of games to keep the rationale for
| locking out OtherOS out of the discovery process. It
| wound up being just another one of _those_ kinds of
| settlements - i.e. a large-sounding number being awarded
| to so many plaintiffs in the class that its basically
| pennies per person.
|
| My guess is that they don't want to say the quiet part
| out loud: i.e. they took away OtherOS because they
| weren't getting the tariff exemptions they wanted and
| they don't actually want people using these devices for
| non-royalty-bearing activities (e.g. piracy and
| homebrew).
| monocasa wrote:
| Sony loved those labs. They were pushing an idea at the
| time that it was legally not a game console but instead a
| general purpose computer, which helped them with import
| tariffs in a lot of jurisdictions. It's also great
| marketing. "You can have the power of a super computer
| under your TV".
| frozenlettuce wrote:
| Oil & gas companies as well, for their drilling and
| prospecting simulations.
| yebyen wrote:
| Seriously a bit miffed at the characterization of people
| who have bought a piece of hardware to install Free and
| Open Source Software on it (and then been absolutely
| rugged by the manufacturer) as "pirates out to save/make
| money, and hobbyists too"
|
| Every business I have ever worked at has either been
| built almost exclusively on Open Source software, or a
| bank that ran almost exclusively on Microsoft.
|
| We're not just pirates and hobbyists!
| Narishma wrote:
| It's the other way around. Linux was removed as a reaction to
| it being used to jailbreak the PS3 and allow piracy.
| that_guy_iain wrote:
| I remember it very differently.
|
| They disabled Linux because it got jailbroken and that was how
| they jailbroke it. If they didn't jailbreak the PS3 they
| wouldn't have disabled Linux. I think it was GeoHot who cracked
| it, I think it was because they used the same cryptographic key
| for all machines or something like that.
|
| This isn't a story of how taking away freedom from users
| resulted in piracy, this is a story of how piracy took freedoms
| away from uesrs.
| thomastjeffery wrote:
| 1. Sony having a predictable reaction to piracy is not (and
| would not be) the same as "piracy took freedoms away from
| users".
|
| 2. You got your facts/timeline wrong. GeoHot didn't publish
| his hack until after OtherOS was disabled.
| that_guy_iain wrote:
| > 2. You got your facts/timeline wrong. GeoHot didn't
| publish his hack until after OtherOS was disabled.
|
| Turns out I really don't. The other person posted the
| timeline. GeoHot pulled it because they allowed OtherOS.
| They obivously found out some how, removed it and then
| GeoHot announced the bug. Maybe GeoHot did responsible
| disclosure?
| ralfd wrote:
| I tried to google it, but on hn there wasn't much discussion
| about it. 13 years ago.
|
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1225990
|
| > This has to be in direct response to George Hotz (geohot)'s
| PS3 exploits.
|
| Edit: I found:
|
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1227084
|
| > This appears to be in response to the announcements of PS3
| hypervisor exploits that rely on the use of OtherOS
| (specifically, Linux), since in the past Sony has insisted
| that they had no plans to ever deprecate Linux support, let
| alone force it in this manner:
|
| https://lists.ozlabs.org/pipermail/cbe-oss-
| dev/2009-August/0...
| altruios wrote:
| No...
|
| This is a story to a company overreacting and taking away
| freedoms because someone gave people too much freedom and the
| company didn't like that.
| skyyler wrote:
| Your memory may not be as good as you remember. This history
| wiki doesn't seem to imply any causality between the
| jailbreak and the removal of OtherOS.
|
| https://atunnic.gitbook.io/tnpsh-wiki/welcome-to-
| wiki/ps3-hi...
|
| September 1st [3.00]: The PS3 slim is released, the first
| model without OtherOS.
|
| December 26th [3.15]: GeoHot pulls information from the USB
| bus regarding the Cell processor's SPI port and a theoretical
| attack vector.
|
| January 22nd [3.15]: GeoHot gains full access to the system
| memory and processor.
|
| April 1st [3.21]: OtherOS is removed from all PS3s.
|
| August 19th [3.41]: PS Jailbreak dongle is announced and
| confirmed working.
| fomine3 wrote:
| This post looks better?
| https://www.psxhax.com/threads/ps5-4-03-kernel-exploit-webki...
| RektBoy wrote:
| newsclues wrote:
| When I imagine that I feel inclined to purchase one.
|
| Last gen I tried owning consoles but switched back to PC.
| seba_dos1 wrote:
| Steam Deck is a great console.
| Narishma wrote:
| The Steam Deck is a PC, not a console.
| seba_dos1 wrote:
| That's part of what makes it a great console.
| 734129837261 wrote:
| I still can't buy the PS5 in my country. To me, Sony is dead.
| I've had every Playstation console from the start and have bought
| one within months of release, it has been almost TWO years now
| and still there's nothing. I'll never purchase any of their
| things ever again.
| ErneX wrote:
| The pandemic was tough on the supply chain of many things,
| including consoles. Supply has been improving though my guess
| is next year it will be available in most stores. It is still
| on high demand they are selling all they make.
| moffkalast wrote:
| Well yes, how would you buy them if you literally can't buy
| them? That's pretty sound logic alright.
| rosnd wrote:
| Your previous comments suggest that you're in the Netherlands.
| You can easily have a PS5 delivered to you within the week.
| jeroenhd wrote:
| Where? They're out of stock everywhere as far as I can see.
| wafriedemann wrote:
| jylam wrote:
| If you don't care, don't post <3
| junon wrote:
| Flagrant dismissal of work is against HN's guidelines which you
| can review at the bottom of this page.
| pbhjpbhj wrote:
| We're also supposed to interpret comments in the best light;
| they make a reasonable point in asking, albeit acerbically,
| 'what's the benefit'?
| ddevault wrote:
| I am entirely supportive of the user's right to do what they
| please with their devices (a right which may soon be enshrined in
| European law under the Digital Markets Act), and I celebrate
| jailbreaks as a means of liberating users from oppressive
| vendors. That said, I cannot help but smile at the fact that
| console hacks are almost _always_ exploited from the web browser
| these days. If you need more proof that the web is a bloated,
| complex platform which is impossible to secure, then here you
| have it.
| collegeburner wrote:
| i mean that's just part of the exploit chain, looks like sony
| probably didn't keep the kernel up to date either. a browser is
| just the easy starting point bc it's a widely-understood piece
| of open source code an attacker can use.
| diydsp wrote:
| PSP was swaploit. I wouldn't diss web too hard, it's just the
| biggest attack surface. Plus this also used a kern vuln.
| erk__ wrote:
| I find it much more surprising that it uses a CVE which was
| fixed upstream in 2020, I guess PlayStation don't pull upstream
| often
|
| https://www.freebsd.org/security/advisories/FreeBSD-SA-20:20...
| EMIRELADERO wrote:
| > (a right which may soon be enshrined in European law under
| the Digital Markets Act),
|
| That only applies to a handful of companies, no? And even then,
| the gatekeeper can take "appropiate measures to protect the
| integrity of the operating system".
| purpleblue wrote:
| The dedication jailbreakers have to the craft is truly admirable.
| I remember back in the mid-1980s coming to the realization that
| the war between people trying to build copy protection and those
| trying to crack it was an unwinnable war. I thought this as I
| copied the latest version of CopyWrite so that I myself could
| just copy whatever program I wanted at the time.
| sylware wrote:
| I am astonished it was found via one of the vanguard/blackrock
| people (aka google and apple, yeah microsoft is there too),
| insanely bloated and kludgified, javascripted web engines,
| Ohlala! Really surprised! (severe irony).
| beavisthegenius wrote:
| Kukumber wrote:
| I guess it's time to buy one!
|
| That kind of news always increase sales, so they can benefit from
| it if they damage control correctly, a new model is just around
| the corner, so it's all good i guess
| YurgenJurgensen wrote:
| Sony are already selling every unit they can manufacture, and
| many places still have waiting lists, lotteries or one-unit-
| per-customer limits on the PS5) even after raising the MSRP
| (which actually lowered the effective price to consumers by
| pricing less-efficient scalpers out of the business of
| scalping). Sales can't increase because they have no more PS5s
| to sell.
| ChuckNorris89 wrote:
| By the time you buy it, the patch will be out already.
| alrlroipsp wrote:
| https://memegenerator.net/instance/64466228
| dtx1 wrote:
| So now would be a good time to buy a PS5, keep it in boxed until
| this is released and use it to pirate all the games?
| kristofferR wrote:
| This exploit is only for 4.03, a pretty old firmware from
| December, most PS5 still unsold probably have way newer
| firmware.
| eru wrote:
| Why don't you use the PS5 in the meantime, or wait with buying
| until later?
| ninjaoxygen wrote:
| If you want to use it, the firmware will need to be updated,
| and therefore quickly no longer vulnerable once Sony patches
| it.
|
| If you wait until later, the units in the shops will also
| have patched firmware.
| hericium wrote:
| It will likely get patched in following versions. Stores may
| be required to update the firmware before selling consoles.
| _joel wrote:
| On a sealed boxed console? No chance. It's literally the
| first thing that will pop up when a network connection is
| established.
| mihau wrote:
| This is already kinda-released:
| https://twitter.com/SpecterDev/status/1576714840650883074
| bskan wrote:
| If you can find stock somewhere...
| AdvancedCarrot wrote:
| I suspect it depends on where you live - in the UK at least
| they're readily available in GAME for example.
| haunter wrote:
| >now would be a good time to buy a PS5
|
| This might be the bigger task than the actual jailbreak
| easton wrote:
| My local Costco has had them for months. You have to buy it
| in a bundle with an extra controller and a game (and maybe a
| few other things), but it's at MSRP for all those things.
| AdvancedCarrot wrote:
| Probably not - this exploit only works on firmware version
| 4.03. The latest being 6.0 which any new PS5 is likely to
| already have installed.
| bhaak wrote:
| Gaming is already one of the cheaper hobbies.
|
| Going through the hassle of wasting time and nerves to pirate
| games that are very cheap to get after a few months after
| release or in sales is beyond my comprehension.
| eurasiantiger wrote:
| There is also an incredible variety of FREE indie games,
| standalone total conversion mods and whatnot.
| emptyfile wrote:
| Wait until you hear that some people don't even have indoor
| plumbing, 24h electricity and enough protein to eat, let
| alone extra income to waste on children's entertainment.
| b3lvedere wrote:
| Titles may suddenly disappear from your favorite libraries.
| This is usually because of license issues or removing online
| servers/services.
| [deleted]
| matheusmoreira wrote:
| Is there a documented instance of a game being removed from
| an account's library after being licensed via the online
| store?
| capableweb wrote:
| All. The. Time.
|
| Here is one website keeping track of it happening to
| various degrees: https://delistedgames.com/
|
| Sometimes the game simply disappears from the store front
| but you can find it in your library. Sometimes it
| disappears from your library too, and you can request it
| via some process (https://delistedgames.com/get-your-
| games-back/). Sometimes you need to write the company in
| order to get a new key to whatever platform it is still
| available.
|
| And sometimes it's just lost, with no recourse.
| anotherman554 wrote:
| This is FUD, titles don't disappear from your Ps5 library
| when they get delisted.
|
| If you buy a single player game digitally you should
| continue to have access to it for the life of the console
| as long as you aren't banned for doing something like
| disputing a credit card charge. (Which admittedly is a
| concern.)
| pbhjpbhj wrote:
| Different provider (Steam) but related to your comment on
| disputing charges:
|
| I returned a faulty game as is my legal right under UK
| law, Steam said they didn't allow that because they had
| their own much more restrictive rules. Eventually, I
| raised a PayPal dispute and PayPal choose to refund me
| (the amount was ~PS1). They retaliated with restrictions
| to my account ... such restrictions as retaliation for
| fair exercise of rights granted by law is something that
| needs addressing.
|
| I've noticed that game libraries, like Steam, now
| explicitly try to remove consumer rights with a click-
| thru pseudo-contract that directly contradicts UK law
| (roughly 'you give up rights to a refund'; whilst the
| Consumer Rights Act explicitly applies to digitally
| supplied goods).
|
| Just thought this was a related point of note. Suppliers
| of intangible media have a little too much free rein.
| ChoGGi wrote:
| You don't buy games you can only license them.
| aceazzameen wrote:
| There was a demo for a horror game called P.T. on PS4
| made by Kojima. It got cancelled and the demo was
| eventually delisted from libraries preventing players
| from re-downloading it. The only way to play it is if you
| already downloaded it prior to delisting and never
| uninstall it. For a short while there was a way to
| download it via a web link, but Sony eventually shut that
| down.
| anotherman554 wrote:
| You are technically correct but I did write "if you buy a
| single player game digitally..."
|
| Nobody bought P.T.
|
| The Scott Pilgrim game was delisted on the Ps3 when the
| license expired, and I can still download and play it
| today. Being delisted just means new customers can't buy
| it.
|
| There's no way Sony's terms of service allow developers
| to pull games from the library after purchase, that would
| be a remarkable business failure on their part given how
| much leverage they have in negotiating the TOS with
| developers.
| vlunkr wrote:
| Right, it was delisted but didn't disappear from your
| library, exactly what the parent post said.
| squeaky-clean wrote:
| It did disappear from your library, it just wasn't auto-
| uninstalled from your system. But you can never ever
| download/install it again. That's why systems that have
| it installed already go for so much money on eBay.
| FearlessNebula wrote:
| And when your CMOS battery dies after, hopefully, 20
| years or so, the game will require a DRM check with Sony
| except it has been delisted
| anotherman554 wrote:
| I just looked this up and the CMOS battery issue has been
| fixed for PS4 and Ps5 but not for Ps3. :(.
| FearlessNebula wrote:
| Do you have a source? I'm curious how they fix that,
| maybe they disable the DRM requirement?
| anotherman554 wrote:
| I'm not on a computer where I can copy and paste a link.
| If you want a source type "ps4 cmos patch" in google.
| matheusmoreira wrote:
| I looked at the games mentioned on the landing page and
| it's mostly online games whose servers are getting shut
| down. While that sucks and we should totally have the
| right to host our own servers without some asshole
| corporation C&Ding them, this isn't what I was talking
| about.
|
| I have hundreds of video games. On steam I think it's
| over 200 titles. I can't tell if something I purchased
| ever disappeared from there. What I do know is I have
| lots of titles on my account that aren't sold on Steam
| anymore. Some GTA games with the original soundtrack,
| several EA titles that used to be sold on Steam once upon
| a time.
|
| Is there a way to use this site to check my gaming
| accounts to see if I lost any games?
| Nextgrid wrote:
| Buying on disc should prevent that.
| nottorp wrote:
| Yesterday I inserted a PS4 game disc in my PS5. First
| time for that particular title.
|
| First thing it downloaded a 10 or 20 Gb patch...
| ekianjo wrote:
| Lol no ever disc games require patches these days.
| dtx1 wrote:
| Oh sweet summer child...
| FearlessNebula wrote:
| Piracy isn't a money issue, it's a services issue.
| dtx1 wrote:
| True, to a degree. I won't ever pay 10-15EUR for a 10 year
| old pc game but paying 1-3EUR to have it in my steam
| library and not have to deal with wine/proton by hand is
| often worth it.
| invalidusernam3 wrote:
| A bit off topic, but I recently bought my first Xbox (series
| x) after owning every generation of PlayStation since launch.
| There were 3 reasons I opted for the Xbox: availability,
| aesthetics of the device itself (in my opinion the new PS5 is
| hideous), and most importantly Xbox Game Pass.
|
| I am amazed at the number of high quality games on there for
| a relatively small monthly fee. Buying one new game at full
| price is the equivalent of around 6 months of game pass. So
| for the same price I can either have 2 new games a year, or
| have access to hundreds of games.
|
| Subscription services like that make piracy completely
| redundant. Game pass is spotify for games, and I haven't
| bought or pirated music since I started using spotify
| johnchristopher wrote:
| With an active life it took me more than two years to reach
| 140 hours of gameplay in horizon zero dawn. I have enough
| games to play until I am dead and beyond.
| FroshKiller wrote:
| Microsoft is much better about backwards compatibility and
| preservation than Sony, too. I have a library of Xbox and
| Xbox 360 discs I can just put in my Xbox Series X and still
| play, often with improvements. I can even still buy many
| titles from those generations digitally and play them on my
| Series X.
|
| Meanwhile, Sony's missing many landmark titles from two
| generations, and your only option for playing PS3 games on
| a PS5 is streaming.
| matheusmoreira wrote:
| Indeed... So many PS3 games I missed out on because of
| Sony's negligence. They used to be better. The PS2
| included PS1 hardware inside it. Early versions of the
| PS3 included PS2 hardware.
| ErneX wrote:
| Cramming a PS3 on the PS4 made no sense, unless you
| wanted a 599 dollars console vs a 399 dollars.
|
| PS3 had a shaky launch precisely for that reason, it
| launched at 599. The PS4 launched at 399 (a hundred bucks
| cheaper than the Xbox One btw and one the reasons it got
| a massive lead since the beginning)
| matheusmoreira wrote:
| Then emulate it via software. There are open source PS3
| emulators being developed right now. Why can't Sony use
| its billions of dollars to do it?
| Narishma wrote:
| A PS4 isn't fast enough to emulate a PS3.
| ErneX wrote:
| On the PS4 with those Jaguar cores it was simply not
| possible, maybe on the PS5?
| mikepurvis wrote:
| Am still salty that the Sly Cooper HD trilogy for PS3
| never made it to PS4.
| Kukumber wrote:
| That's a pure lie, look who ended their backward
| combability promise? your buddy Microsoft
|
| https://geekculture.co/xbox-ends-backwards-compatibility/
| mikepurvis wrote:
| "I have a library of Xbox and Xbox 360 discs I can just
| put in my Xbox Series X and still play, often with
| improvements."
|
| Not to take away from Microsoft's achievement (and
| commitment) here, but of course much of that is dependent
| on remote servers to supply the necessary patches, or in
| some cases going so far as to just treat the original
| disc as a DRM dongle that enables an entirely image to be
| downloaded.
|
| This is backcompat that allows you to play titles from
| the last twenty years _right now_ , and that's still a
| huge improvement over anything Sony or Nintendo have done
| in the last generation or so [1], and reflects the degree
| to which Microsoft sees that as a killer feature of
| Steam. But it's not super likely that this will still
| work in another twenty years-- the only archival-quality
| solution is keeping the old hardware working or hoping
| for the best with emulation.
|
| [1]: But do note that a Wii U can natively play Wii
| games, and can be jailbroken to natively play Gamecube
| games, since all three systems are iterations of the same
| underlying platform. The launch versions of Nintendo's
| handhelds always supported at least one prior generation
| of game card/cartridge as well. And of course the initial
| "fat" SKUs of PS2 and PS3 could both play the generation
| of games immediately prior-- and none of this required
| internet access.
| literalAardvark wrote:
| It wouldn't be the first time Microsoft takes over the
| world by providing a decent offering and excellent
| backward compatibility.
| ErneX wrote:
| AFAIK you cannot even use an Xbox for the 1st time
| without connecting it to the internet. PS on the contrary
| you can pop a game and it runs offline. But it seems they
| have been working on removing these constrains which are
| truly crucial for preservation in the future.
| anotherman554 wrote:
| Game pass is nice if you aren't picky about what games you
| play. But if you feel like playing a game that's not on
| game pass, you are paying for nothing.
| philistine wrote:
| The biggest benefit to Game Pass that is seldom
| acknowledged is having the same game library for
| everyone. My friend and I can play together with hundred
| of titles to choose from, without having to convince one
| another to spend money.
|
| We like this so much we sent an older Xbox One to a third
| friend with the idea to get him to buy Game Pass so we
| can all play together.
|
| I dread the end of this early growth period for Game
| Pass.
| mariusmg wrote:
| > Gaming is already one of the cheaper hobbies.
|
| In the West maybe. To keep up with Playstation example, in my
| country you can buy 6 new PS5 games with the minimum salary.
| eru wrote:
| Singapore is one of the richest countries in the world. Our
| minimum salary buys you exactly 0 PS5 games.
|
| I'm not sure that says much either way.
| homarp wrote:
| can you elaborate a bit?
|
| https://www.bal.com/bal-news/singapore-minimum-monthly-
| salar... says min salary is 3k sgd
|
| https://store.playstation.com/en-sg/concept/10000956 says
| Gran Turismo is 98 SGD
|
| so I am puzzled
| lmz wrote:
| The minimum salary is for foreigners on a work visa, not
| locals.
| eru wrote:
| Yes. No minimum wage for locals.
|
| Btw, Germany also didn't have a minimum wage until fairly
| recently.
| somecommit wrote:
| Above all, gaming is one of the useless hobbies. I love it so
| much, yet it's giving so little to self-improvement...
| flatiron wrote:
| Maybe no shockingly obvious "improvements" but I've noticed
| friends and family who don't game have a much harder time
| following the gps while the gamers usually have it on
| silent and glance every now and then with no issue. I bet
| there are a lot of mini things like that gaming improves.
| FearlessNebula wrote:
| I would've never learned to love computers if it were not
| for video games
| b3lvedere wrote:
| Eh, it depends. Every hobby has its benefits and its
| drawbacks.
|
| I learned a ton of English, strategy, stress management,
| shortcut keys, programming and whatnot from games. Some
| games also took a lot of my sanity, sleep, relationships
| with living beings, etc. :)
|
| Don't feel bad enjoying a hobby. The universe is your
| playground.
| Shaanie wrote:
| Lots of hobbies are essentially "useless". The focus on
| being constantly "productive" seems toxic to me.
|
| If you enjoy a hobby then it's not useless, enjoying it is
| the point of a hobby! So enjoy playing video games, growing
| houseplants, playing golf or whatever hobbies you have
| without feeling guilty about not producing as much as you
| could.
| matheusmoreira wrote:
| I learned english and programming because of video games.
| imtringued wrote:
| Everything including reproduction is useless.
|
| I don't know about you but I started programming because of
| Minecraft and learning about running a business by playing
| prosperous universe and this gave me some insights that
| make me suspect that money and it's non neutrality is the
| biggest unrecognised problem in economics. Remember
| economics 101 doesn't even have the concept of money or
| time. In fact econ 101 is an utopia that we want to reach,
| not how economics works in practice.
|
| Positive reinforcement is worth more than people
| complaining that you are wasting your time by doing the
| wrong thing. People on HN say you should be curing cancer
| instead of building a factory in factorio. The former is a
| poorly defined multidimensional non linear search space
| with high chance of failure, the latter is a well studied
| problem with tutorials and guides. That is negative
| reinforcement.
| overcast wrote:
| I don't know about useless, certainly keeps your mind and
| dexterity sharp.
| dfxm12 wrote:
| This is _Hacker_ News after all. Tinkering with stuff like
| this has gotten people into soldering, emulation, PCB design,
| low level coding, etc., which then gets you into software
| /computer/electrical engineering.
|
| It's not _just_ about saving 50 bucks every now and then. At
| least for some, it 's about satisfying intellectual curiosity
| as well.
| Ligma123 wrote:
| >Gaming is already one of the cheaper hobbies
|
| I know there are cheaper alternatives, but gaming branded
| hardware is far from being cheap. Specially middle-high GPUs.
|
| And for most people that want to upgrade their computers or a
| specific item, they prefer to buy something that will last at
| between 3 to 5 years.
| FearlessNebula wrote:
| If we're talking about PCs you could buy an old office PC
| on eBay for $150 with a 7th gen Intel CPU and 16 GB of RAM
| and play a glut of low power games, retro emulators, etc.
| And if you're willing to shell out another $150 for a 5
| year old GPU you'll be able to run just about any game,
| albeit on the lowest settings most of the time.
| squeaky-clean wrote:
| That's a very American view on prices. Multiply those by
| 10 for Brazil.
|
| It's cheaper to fly to America and buy game consoles or
| PC hardware and fly back than it is to buy them in
| Brazil. Just be sure to hide your price tags from customs
| (or have a nice little bribe ready)
| Closi wrote:
| I mean in this thread we are specifically talking about a
| PS389.99 console (new) which has a huge subscription
| library at a fairly low price.
|
| Sure, you can choose to buy a PC... but that's not a
| requirement (or indeed a preference) for lots of people in
| the hobby.
| collegeburner wrote:
| not really, e.g. music can be much cheaper to start (find
| an old guitar/digital keyboard) though get expensive if you
| want good instruments later on, i guess. sure ash cheaper
| than my shooting habit tho :)
| skhr0680 wrote:
| Just a decent set of tools for overhauling a bicycle cost
| me more than my Switch + games.
| Woeps wrote:
| wait...
|
| A stand, chain lube + cleaner, tubes+tube patch kit,
| chain brush, floor pump, chain drive tool, cable cutter
| and a set or two of wrenches/screwdrivers cost you more
| then a 200/300 euro switch plus at least one 60 euro
| game?
|
| And you bought these? You didn't inherit all this stuff
| from your grandparents together with an "Oma fiets" or
| two when you born?
|
| jokes aside, I do imagine that you might have more
| specialized tools. specially if you're working with some
| of the older sport bicycles that need love.
| rowanG077 wrote:
| I think the same now. But when I was a broke 15 year old I
| thought different. It was literally pirate or never play this
| game.
| ekianjo wrote:
| Have you never been a teenager without money ? Lucky you
| sergiotapia wrote:
| Allow me to make it comprehensible to you.
|
| In Bolivia when I was teen, I loved to go to the markets and
| buy pirated PS2 games. Each one would be about 10 bolivianos.
| (Around $1.50 ish?)
|
| Without these pirated games myself and all of my friends and
| people I knew would not have been able to play games period.
| Imagine buying a $60 + import tax for ONE GAME on a Bolivian
| salary? Ludicrous.
|
| I'm very happy the PS5 will finally open and allow gamers in
| third world countries to play. The PS3 and PS4 to my
| knowledge never had that freedom the PS2 did back in the day.
| ErneX wrote:
| It probably won't or be locked to an specific version where
| only a subset of games will work, provided you never go
| online etc.
| bhaak wrote:
| How did you get a PS2 to play then?
|
| Also note that there are thousands of games that are free
| to play on PCs. There are even lots of old commercial games
| that can be downloaded for free now, legally.
|
| Just because you can't afford a particular game doesn't
| mean that there aren't other options. As a teen I couldn't
| afford every game I wanted either.
| sergiotapia wrote:
| I got a PS2 as the big birthday present. Back then the
| free PC games were KNIGHT online, gunbound, Gunz online,
| Tibia.... slim pickings. Today kids have Fortnite and
| such, I agree.
| _joel wrote:
| It's not just that, it's to enable emulation. I'm not sure
| how pirated games would fare anyway in an online world
| nowadays, but getting emulators running is very interesting
| to me.
| bhaak wrote:
| Oh, yes, but emulation is not piracy (at least in my view
| :-)
| dartharva wrote:
| I'm scared to know what you may see as mid-budget hobby if
| you think gaming is cheap.
| vultour wrote:
| SV developers might have slight trouble grasping that 4
| hours of their work is someone's monthly salary.
| bhaak wrote:
| Getting a console for playing modern games on is a one time
| cost of $300 to $500. Such a console will be good for
| several years to come.
|
| Getting free games per month or even getting access to a
| back catalogue of games with Game Pass or Playstation Plus
| is a monthly $9 to $15.
|
| That's less than people pay that smoke.
| FearlessNebula wrote:
| Not to mention you can buy a PS3 or Xbox 360 for about
| $150 on eBay with a bundle that includes dozens of game
| discs. These consoles are over a decade old but they
| still hold up fantastically well.
| imtringued wrote:
| A good table saw costs more than a gaming set up and it
| only does one thing. You will need more than one type of
| saw. You might need a planer, a drill press, a lathe. The
| list keeps getting bigger.
|
| Or maybe you want to do machining(high end hobby), now you
| need a garage which will cost you ten thousands of dollars
| or you rent one for a hundred or maybe four hundred dollars
| per month. Then you need machines which cost more than 5k
| dollars and you guessed it, you will require multiple
| machines like that.
| flatiron wrote:
| It is if you just don't play current AAA games. I mainly do
| my gaming on a WiiU. Console and everything cost me $100
| used. It plays pretty much every Nintendo game ever made
| short of the switch titles. Games are very cheap and of
| high quality.
| davewritescode wrote:
| While I applaud people being able to use their hardware the way
| they want to, I know that this inevitably leads to rampant
| cheating and will ultimately ruin games across consoles as most
| of the big games these days support cross play.
| Mindwipe wrote:
| TBF it's very unlikely anything running this will be able to
| connect to PSN at all, given this isn't for the current
| firmware as it is.
| ErneX wrote:
| This has been patched already and newer games will require the
| latest OS version. It has become increasingly difficult to
| really hack these consoles.
| kcb wrote:
| Rampant cheating is already happening on consoles through
| controller adapters and mods.
| croes wrote:
| With AI and CV they will (do) cheat without hacking the
| console.
| [deleted]
| weberer wrote:
| The Switch has been hacked since year one, but online cheating
| isn't a problem I've ever seen.
| deelly wrote:
| Could you elaborate please? PC players play on jailbroken (in a
| sense) machine. Why this "rampant cheating that will ultimately
| ruin games across consoles" did not happened already with
| jailbroken PS4?
| acomjean wrote:
| PC games have these weird all-powerful anticheet detection
| software. I'm not sure what its doing, but its trying to
| catch bad actors. Slightly scary the permissions it uses. (I
| play a little fornite on my partner's pc occasionally).
|
| That game (fort nite) seems to have interesting change in
| visuals, random NPCs walking around and different looking
| characters natively. I wonder how much of that is an attempt
| to tamp down on cheating.
|
| eg: https://www.easy.ac/en-us/
| landr0id wrote:
| Mostly because PS4 didn't get hardware hacked. All of the
| hacks were software exploits that could be patched before
| folks were able to leverage them to bring their consoles
| online with cheats. iirc it did happen a couple of times
| though.
|
| >PC players play on jailbroken (in a sense) machine.
|
| PC games also ship with anti-cheat. Why ship anti-cheat to a
| console that's supposed to be secure?
| SkyPuncher wrote:
| Several games I play have implemented match making that
| allows you to play against only other console players. There
| are still soft/weak cheats, like recoil control and silly
| name-tag hacks, but the hard cheats, like aimbots, simply do
| not exist on consoles.
| ThatPlayer wrote:
| Because a jailbroken PS4 doesn't stay jailbroken with a
| reboot. The system's secure boot hasn't been broken. So a
| system update that fixes the exploit and requiring that
| firmware to go online is all that's needed to keep jailbroken
| PS4s out of online multiplayer games.
|
| Breaking this would require an exploit in the bootloader.
| filoleg wrote:
| > Could you elaborate please? PC players play on jailbroken
| (in a sense) machine.
|
| Yeah, which is why if you go on subreddits for any major
| multiplayer game that supports crossplay between PC and
| consoles (like COD Warzone), you will see a lot of people
| recommending to turn off crossplay to avoid dealing with
| cheaters, because pretty much all of them come from PC.
|
| I usually have no issues playing with crossplay enabled on
| release of a new game, but a month or so after, I end up
| disabling it most of the time for that exact reason.
| fellellor wrote:
| Is it because in a PC you can have other programs running in
| parallel that can look into/modify the memory bits of a
| running game and in the process "hack" it? But in a closed
| system like a game console you can't just run your own
| unapproved software, which drastically reduces the number of
| ways a game can be "hacked".
| rmellow wrote:
| Windows is a gaming platform, as is Linux in a lesser degree.
| So not more than already happens, and games can require anti-
| cheat software to be installed.
| tpxl wrote:
| Anti-cheat is cancer and doesn't do much to prevent cheating
| anyways. The only way to prevent cheating is moderation, but
| that doesn't "scale" (even though every time you ban a
| cheater they have to re-buy the game and is actually a net
| plus)
| weberer wrote:
| Of course it scales if you allow dedicated servers run by a
| 3rd party admin, like TF2 or Factorio or so many games of
| the past. But most companies these days don't want to give
| up that control.
| tpxl wrote:
| That's just the thing, it scales very well if you're only
| running first party servers for a _paid_ game.
|
| Escape From Tarkov had a big issue with cheaters because
| they would farm ingame currency, then sell it for real
| cash (Real Money Trading - RMT). This was literally a job
| for these people. Everytime they got banned, they just
| bought another account (~40$) and kept farming. If a
| support person bans one such person per two hours (at a
| generous 20$/hr Russian salary), the company literally
| makes money off of cheating.
|
| I get why Free To Play games have cheater issues (even
| though for example Fortnite is raking in cash), but for
| pay to play games, I just don't get it.
| wyldberry wrote:
| It depends on the anti-cheat systems. Some games are
| significantly easier to cheat in than others for rather
| obvious reasons. Anti-cheat has a very hard problem in that
| you're shipping your binary to an obviously-hostile
| environment where people will do anything and then some to
| get the upper hand.
|
| If you attended Kernel and Hardware hacking courses at
| security trainings, you're likely sitting next to either
| some cheat developers, or some anti-cheat team members.
| hhh wrote:
| I don't agree. I think anticheat CAN do plenty. Many game
| companies don't have the resources or care to build entire
| divisions around anticheat. Hardware bans are extremely
| effective when done right. Not many games do invasive
| hardware bans though.
| tpxl wrote:
| > I think anticheat CAN do plenty.
|
| It can, but usually doesn't do anything but make your
| system less secure. I'd have no problem with anti-cheat
| systems, but they by and large don't work.
| davewritescode wrote:
| I hope you're right but I suspect the same anti-cheating
| measures can't work on PS5 and Xbox because I doubt those
| vendors give the low level of access required to make such
| tools work.
|
| When the xbox360 was jailbroken a lot of games were
| immediately ruined, at least until Microsoft figured out how
| to ban modded consoles from online play.
| YurgenJurgensen wrote:
| Aren't most anti-cheat systems basically rootkits? Mandatory
| anti-cheat sounds like the greater of two evils compared to
| walled-garden hardware. At least the latter is upfront about
| what you're getting.
| jamesgeck0 wrote:
| Yes. They're intrusive enough that anti-cheat should really
| be a Windows feature, if anything.
| [deleted]
| system2 wrote:
| Maybe I am old fashioned, I am not buying an expensive device
| which I cannot use 100% completely. Only exception is my iPhone.
| They release consoles every year or so and not letting anyone
| update the previous ones. I find it silly to purchase consoles
| every year.
| thesh4d0w wrote:
| There was 7 years between the ps4 and ps5.....
| system2 wrote:
| Including other consoles*
| grodes wrote:
| https://wololo.net/2022/10/03/released-ps5-kernel-exploit-we...
| magic_hamster wrote:
| The kernel exploit has been fully published:
| https://wololo.net/2022/10/03/released-ps5-kernel-exploit-we...
| jbverschoor wrote:
| Nice! But can you even buy it?
| 1MachineElf wrote:
| It's easier to get than most newer Raspberry Pi hardware.
| hijinks wrote:
| ya last night my walmart had a few plus they are all over
| online stores now
| fbanon wrote:
| PS6 will be written in Rust.
| peanut_worm wrote:
| And PS7 will be fought with sticks and stones
| adroitboss wrote:
| I have zero idea why my brain also went to this quote.
| ok123456 wrote:
| So it's never coming out?
| w4rh4wk5 wrote:
| So, it's now easier to run custom software on the PS5 than
| obtaining one?
| dylan604 wrote:
| Except if you don't have one, you can't exploit it now can you?
| lemoncookiechip wrote:
| Now people can pirate all 5 exclusive games that aren't already
| on PC. But really, pretty cool.
| mynameisvlad wrote:
| From Sony? The king of exclusives?
|
| Yeah they recently released old games on PC but there is a
| large collection of exclusives either out or coming soon.
|
| https://www.gamesradar.com/ps5-exclusives/
| racl101 wrote:
| Playstation 5? What's that?
|
| I've head of them but have never seen one in a store.
| kevingadd wrote:
| Feels like any time a console gets jailbroken, it's always a
| JavaScript use-after-free exploit in the browser webview that
| they use to open the user manual. IIRC this was true for the PS
| Vita, 3DS, Wii U, among others? I wonder if at some point console
| vendors will stop using webviews entirely?
| neurostimulant wrote:
| I think it's because webkit is an open source project with
| known bugs/vulnerabilities. Bugfixes in upstream webkit version
| may not be included in the console version of webkit yet, so
| hackers can have easier time testing for potential exploits
| simply by testing those known bugs.
| [deleted]
| AdvancedCarrot wrote:
| I do suspect that this is a big part of why the PS5 doesn't
| include a browser, despite one being available on the PS4. It's
| a shame really, would love to be able to browse the web from my
| PS5.
| kotaKat wrote:
| Yep, this is exactly why. Sony got too scared of having a
| fully user-facing browser this time around because of all the
| Webkit exploits slamming the PS4.
|
| It actually leads to frustration as an ISP employee; we get
| reports of end user devices getting slow speeds and the
| built-in PSN speedtests can often give us bad results (eg, a
| customer might be rated for 100x100 and the PSN test yields
| 20x5) -- running a browser-based speedtest we might be
| getting full speed to the device indicating a PSN issue.
| Removing the browser takes that troubleshooting option away
| from us.
| munbun wrote:
| PS5 had a bug where its Wifi speeds can become 80% slower
| if the rear USB ports are being used.
|
| Switching to Ethernet bypasses this issue but I'm unaware
| if this was ever fixed.
| P5fRxh5kUvp2th wrote:
| That's as close to "changed radio channels and my wheels
| fell off" as you can get...
| SoylentYellow wrote:
| It is amazing how consistently garbage PSN speed tests have
| been for over a decade. I remember the results being wildly
| off on my PS3, PS4, and now PS5.
| LinAGKar wrote:
| It does have one, e.g. for opening links in tweets, though it
| doesn't let you enter URLs directly.
| voakbasda wrote:
| So... you just tweet yourself any links that you want to
| open?
| LinAGKar wrote:
| Yes. It's not terribly useful, but it exists, and could
| be exploitable.
| seba_dos1 wrote:
| Not always (some PS Vita jailbreaks relied on breaking out of
| PSP emulation, for example), but it's indeed a pretty common
| vector of liberation.
| imtringued wrote:
| Why aren't they using some sort of sandbox, apparmor or selinux
| based security? The places where foreign data and code are
| allowed in consoles should be pretty limited.
|
| I still remember the dirty COW exploit on Android and it was
| useless because all you are getting is root in some heavily
| restricted namespace.
| danhor wrote:
| They often are heavily isolating the browser. This is the
| reason a kernel exploit is also needed, but getting the first
| foot in is often an important part and most easily
| accomplished with the browser.
|
| Game consoles are some of the most secure and heavily
| exploited systems around, since there is a very strong
| financial incentive to secure them and a strong incentive to
| break 'em open (compared to almost any other consumer tech).
| kklisura wrote:
| I remember people using PS3 as compute cluster [1] some time ago.
| Is this still possible with PS5? My general question is: are
| there and what are some non-gaming purposes of jailbroken PS5?
|
| [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PlayStation_3_cluster
| maxfurman wrote:
| The PS3 had a unique CPU design that made it suitable for
| certain specialized tasks. The PS5 is much closer to an off-
| the-shelf gaming PC, and so I don't think there's any good
| reasons to use a PS5 in that way, especially since PS5s are
| difficult to even buy in the first place.
| sudosysgen wrote:
| The PS5 has one of the strongest available APUs, so it can
| make sense (along with all of the other consoles this gen)
| for heterogeneous compute.
| crote wrote:
| If I remember correctly, the PS3's CPU is uniquely suited to
| the kind of work people use clusters for. It provided a halfway
| point between CPU and GPGPU, and at a price point which
| couldn't be beaten.
|
| The PS5, on the other hand, basically uses medium-range off-
| the-shelf computer components. Its most powerful feature is the
| extremely fast SSD, but that is not very useful for a compute
| cluster. Nowadays anyone wanting a compute cluster would just
| fill a server rack with GPUs and be done with it.
| gowery wrote:
| Nice one, from the video it looks like he chained a browser vuln
| with a kernel vuln to make his jailbreak. Assuming it's a JIT
| optimization bug (as browser vulns often are, but I'm just
| guessing here), I wonder if Sony might attempt to mitigate this
| in future by disabling JIT, as Apple has done with its Lockdown
| Mode.
|
| Looks like the other thing they could do for this particular
| vector is prevent https requests from being intercepted and
| replaced - why should the user be permitted to override
| certificate errors in this case? Doesn't make sense.
| BaculumMeumEst wrote:
| Do you mean a javascript JIT for the system's web browser?
| Would the only impact of disabling it be that the system is
| slower at web browsing?
| encryptluks2 wrote:
| Because that is what JIT does is it speeds up performance at
| the costs of some security vulnerabilities. Just about every
| browser vulnerability in existence would have been mitigated
| by simply disabling JIT. I've disabled it myself and browsing
| was so slow that I had to re-enable it.
| BaculumMeumEst wrote:
| Gotcha, was just making sure I understood correctly. I'm
| just surprised that console manufacturers would go through
| the effort of shipping a JIT for a built in web browser.
|
| I don't think I've ever opened a web browser on a console
| except on dreamcast for the novelty of it.
| chc4 wrote:
| It's a use-after-free in FontFaceCache
| (https://wololo.net/2021/10/14/use-after-free-webkit-
| vulnerab... and https://github.com/Cryptogenic/PS5-4.03-Kernel-
| Exploit/blob/...), not a JIT bug.
|
| Funnily enough, I think the CVE they're saying it is is wrong?
| The link to the project zero itw tracking page is for
| CVE-2021-30858 which is an IndexDB UAF, which is a completely
| seperate bug; the MITRE tracking page for CVE-2021-30858 just
| has the boilerplate "a malicious page can cause an exploit"
| from Apple, and doesn't say if it's for the IndexDB or
| FontFaceCache bug, so I think the Jailbreak people are just
| confused on this one.
| pjmlp wrote:
| Microsoft is also exploring the same path with security on
| Chrome Edge.
| inglor wrote:
| Reference to the Edge thing called "Super Duper Secure Mode"
| https://microsoftedge.github.io/edgevr/posts/Super-Duper-
| Sec...
| capableweb wrote:
| > Most importantly we plan to have fun with this project
|
| That seems like the wrong main focus for a security
| project. I'd have preferred if the "most important" thing
| was to provide a secure browsing experience, but, to each
| their own...
| jefftk wrote:
| When you're at the exploratory stage having fun is often
| a key component of making progress.
| ygjb wrote:
| Nah; with years of experience in the security space, and
| a chunk of those working at a browser vendor, watching
| bug classes vanish (even if it's the expense of some
| usability) is worth it when I imagine the tears of bad
| guys who have to work harder, and the users who won't
| have to go through the charade of credit monitoring
| services offered by some of the worst companies in the
| world.
|
| They are specifically calling out that it's not ready for
| prime time, and that it will have an impact on users. In
| practice, many very effective security controls for
| browsers (and other software) get tuned down or disabled
| by default because they break too much of how the web
| works (SameSite cookies are a good example), or because
| it creates friction in customer acquisition or growth.
| amelius wrote:
| How do you know for sure if it's jailbroken?
|
| For instance it might still phone home and install a new
| firmware/software image.
| throwaway742 wrote:
| It's standard practice not to connect a jailbroken console to
| the internet.
| rany_ wrote:
| or block the update server with custom DNS
| seba_dos1 wrote:
| Time to port my game engine to PS5 I guess.
| atemerev wrote:
| PS5 is still not available anywhere in Switzerland. Why it is so
| scarce? It is used for mining or something?
| monksy wrote:
| Istanbul airport in duty free. They had a display last weekend.
| croes wrote:
| Scalpers?
| atemerev wrote:
| 3 years after release?
| ErneX wrote:
| No, it's turning 2 years in November.
| pxx wrote:
| People sell consoles at over retail price because demand is
| outstripping supply at MSRP. A heated resale market is a
| symptom of the lack of supply, not the cause.
| bullen wrote:
| I think it has to do with DDR5/DDR6.
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