[HN Gopher] Sauna use as a lifestyle practice to extend healthspan
___________________________________________________________________
Sauna use as a lifestyle practice to extend healthspan
Author : CharlesW
Score : 224 points
Date : 2022-10-02 15:28 UTC (7 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.sciencedirect.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.sciencedirect.com)
| jcalabro wrote:
| The author of this paper has an excellent podcast about all-
| around fitness, including but not limited to sauna use. Lots of
| talk about sleep, nutrition, lifestyle, etc.
|
| https://open.spotify.com/show/5QjpaU0o1Q2MkVZwwG3y7d?si=2845...
| m463 wrote:
| This was an interesting study:
|
| https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamainternalmedicine/fullar...
|
| I've always wondered if you can get the same benefits from hot
| tubs, and maybe even hot showers.
|
| Additionally, things happen in cold too - wonder if cold showers
| can release these, and at what temperatures /durations. (people
| have easy access to cold showers)
| lock-the-spock wrote:
| Visiting Serbia, the hotel's sauna was broken, but they did
| have a working 'frigudarium', essentially a sit-in freezer. I
| did not last long though.
| hutzlibu wrote:
| "Additionally, there are cold shock proteins - wonder if cold
| showers can release these, and at what temperatures
| /durations."
|
| I am not sure about these, but if I do a very hot shower
| followed by very cold long enough I do get roughly the same
| sauna effect. Skin is tingling and on fire. Even more so, when
| ice bathing.
|
| Hot tubs are only relaxing for me. I would not want to combine
| them with cold water and I doubt the effect would be positive.
| celestialcheese wrote:
| This guy has great notes on building a sauna [1], if you decide
| to go the route of build vs. buy. Very opinionated, and has very
| low opinions of american prebuilt sauna kits.
|
| 1 - http://localmile.org/trumpkins-notes-on-building-a-sauna/
| picsao wrote:
| damontal wrote:
| The problem with the sauna is that I have to sit with other men
| in various states of nakedness who are coughing, sneezing,
| listening to music on their phone speaker, or trying to talk to
| me.
| crazygringo wrote:
| Oh, and applying various strongly scented lotions and oils that
| somehow become 100x stronger smelling in the closed hot sauna.
| You can't even breathe, but they're not going to listen to
| anyone telling them not to because they've been doing it for 30
| years there, and who do you think you are, you newcomer?
| [deleted]
| [deleted]
| criddell wrote:
| Is installing a sauna in your home an option?
| warent wrote:
| This has never been my experience with saunas. It's always like
| 2 other guys who just sit there staring at the floor
| lock-the-spock wrote:
| Any decent shared sauna I've ever been to (many!) will oblige
| you to shower before and any devices are prohibited.. sorry to
| hear about your experience but don't give up on the general
| idea!
| [deleted]
| [deleted]
| tsol wrote:
| There's a place near my house where they let you rent an ir
| sauna room for 40 minutes at a time. It includes a TV so you
| can watch something or listen to music if you like. It's very
| nice. I wouldn't be surprised if there's something like this
| near you.
| ffritz wrote:
| I have been going to the sauna of the nearby gym everyday for
| about 2 years now, rarely skipping it.
|
| It is honestly hard to express how much I love the effects of it
| and how much I attribute to it. I can not live without it
| anymore.
|
| If I wake up after a bad nights sleep and feel extremely groggy,
| sauna fixes it.
|
| If I am overworked to the point where my head is pulsating, sauna
| fixes it, and I get another 2 hours of extremely focussed work
| done afterwards.
|
| Bad mood, a cold, sore muscles, even certain types of headache, a
| sauna can fix.
|
| I should mention that a sauna for me includes a cold shower
| immediately after leaving it, as cold as the shower will go. This
| is the key, the shock will make all the difference. Then you lay
| down, at least 10 minutes.
|
| I do 2 rounds most days, it's about 80C, I manage between 12-15
| minutes in the first sitting, then 8-10 in the second.
|
| I can not recommend it enough, it has changed my life.
| mmsnberbar66 wrote:
| how much do you pay?
| cma wrote:
| A trashbag sauna is a few cents but it is possible the effect
| is placebo from going to a fancy place or sunk cost of owning
| a fancy one.
| ffritz wrote:
| It's a regular gym that also has a sauna. Around 40EUR per
| month will get you a gym with sauna in most cities in Germany
| I would say.
| costcofries wrote:
| I do this too but with a steam room.
| ffritz wrote:
| There also is a steam room adjacent to the sauna and from
| time to time I use it as well, but I feel like the heat does
| not penetrate as "deep". What's nicer is how the steam
| soothes the airways in comparison to a Finnish sauna.
| fareesh wrote:
| Does the sauna provide a significantly different outcome to a hot
| shower?
| scyzoryk_xyz wrote:
| Absolutely - it is nothing like a shower. Your skin releases
| sweat and your airways clear up because you breathe the hot air
| in and out. As you sit there and wait, your mind calms down
| too, much like it would during a proper work out. A sauna visit
| warms you up down to the core especially in a cold winter
| climate. For several hours afterwards you feel warm, even when
| out about in the cold. It's like that nice hot feeling after a
| shower sticks around for several hours instead of half an hour.
| bobthepanda wrote:
| A sauna is hotter than a hot shower, unless you're showering
| regularly at 150-195 F.
| yellow_lead wrote:
| A better question would be the effect on body temperature.
| Obviously, water transmits heat better than air
| smilliken wrote:
| The shower is higher humidity though, and the hot water makes
| direct contact, so the heat is more conductive. Similar for a
| steam sauna, they are more potent at the same temperature.
| Also infrared saunas, but for a different reason (the light
| is absorbed directly into the tissue, without needing to heat
| the air). So it's definitely not just about temperature.
| mateo- wrote:
| i imagine hot shower also worse for your skin
| crazygringo wrote:
| I can definitely turn my shower up for a hotter body
| experience than any sauna I've ever been in, and obviously
| it's nowhere near 150-195 which would be lethal.
|
| Because the water is making direct contact with my body for
| much more heat transfer. The dry air of a sauna is vastly
| slower, plus you're sweating which provides evaporative
| cooling which isn't happening in the shower.
|
| So I too really don't see how saunas are appreciably
| different from hot showers here.
| randomopining wrote:
| You're sweating long after a sauna way more than any hot
| shower i've taken... so there is def something different
| going on
| papandada wrote:
| Healthful hormesis (in nontoxic doses): saunas, cold exposure,
| fasting, breath holding, exercise could be included here too, I
| guess... Any others?
| stevebmark wrote:
| https://www.bluezones.com/2016/11/power-9/
| papandada wrote:
| Interesting link thanks! Of that list of 9 I guess you could
| label alcohol as hormesis. Not without controversy of course.
| And some argue plant intake is a form of hormesis.
| piskov wrote:
| What about lung (alveoli) damage due to extremely hot air?
| dominotw wrote:
| Would doing hot yoga at 105F also have some of these benefits to
| a certain degree?
| RC_ITR wrote:
| One wonders if this is just a really complicated pathway for
| 'sweating is a useful tool in maintaining electrolyte balance
| within the blood, particularly with high sodium diets'
| Atlas-Marbles wrote:
| As the article describes, it's more concrete than that. Heat
| shock proteins such as FOXO3 are associated with longevity and
| regulate DNA repair and tumor suppression.
|
| https://www.foundmyfitness.com/topics/sauna#molecular-mechan...
| hprotagonist wrote:
| https://opencorporates.com/companies/us_fl/L20000049338
|
| second author's affiliation is ... a ghost company?
| anonporridge wrote:
| Big sauna pushing propaganda?
| notart666 wrote:
| Most likely. He has his own podcast as well. In regions of
| Japan and Korea and Nordic countries where Sauna and Spas are
| a normal part of life are. Japan and Korea both have similar
| diets to America in recent years and similar health issues
| because of their dining out cultures yet both have high life
| expectancies. As do normal wealthy nations without them. It's
| safe to say life expectancy has more to do with advancements
| in technology rather than a fun and relaxing experience. One
| of the things I dislike the most about it all is that saunas
| are just meant to be relaxing but the involvement of psuedo
| science in it has been concerning but is also due to it's
| association with chiropracty and the Chinese Alternative
| Medicine movement that has been adapted over into Korea and
| Japan. Unironically through religion and shamanism.
| Chiropracty is a dangerous pseudoscience though massages at
| certain levels may be harmless and fun but have no real
| medicinal value.
| RC_ITR wrote:
| >Japan and Korea both have similar diets to America
|
| I do not think this is true. I don't love the world in data
| guy, but according to his work, Americans consume _way_
| more calories than Japan /Korea [0]
|
| [0]https://ourworldindata.org/food-supply
| notart666 wrote:
| This is in reference to the types of foods most commonly
| consumed by the average adult dailt in Japan and Korea.
| Dealing heavily in fried foods and high sodium content
| due to the regionality. It is similar to the Southern
| portion of the North American Diet the most but with less
| caloric content. Yet the same heart problems afflicting
| African Americans effect Koreans and Japanese the
| difference in survival rates is early detection and
| preventative measure. Which result in significantly
| higher life expectancies.
| opportune wrote:
| I am pretty sure obesity is a huge difference, unless you
| are including reducing it as a preventative measure. The
| diet may be the same but you are going to have way more
| heart problems at a BMI of 35 than 25. Anybody who has
| been to both Japan/SK and the South could tell you that
| there is a massive difference in BMI between the two
| areas.
| jimmaswell wrote:
| > Chiropracty is a dangerous pseudoscience
|
| Maybe true on some level, and there are certainly a lot of
| scam artists or misguided ones, but I've seen too many
| anecdotal cases of people with major issues that couldn't
| be solved by physical therapists somehow resolved or
| greatly alleviated by a chiropractor to write them off.
| notart666 wrote:
| Placebo effect is very real. Just as many people who
| believe in alternative medicines. An essential oil can
| not cure you of anything.
| jimmaswell wrote:
| Not nearly the same thing. You can't fix these kind of
| things with a placebo.
|
| For one definite example I know someone who even took a
| dog after it got a vertebrae out of alignment and wasn't
| walking right and it fixed the issue.
| hprotagonist wrote:
| sure you can.
|
| https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34051018/
|
| many chronic pain conditions respond well to placebo
| therapies. Because pain is more centrally mediated than
| you'd think.
| thih9 wrote:
| > Whereas the risk for sudden cardiac death was 22% lower for men
| using the sauna 2-3 times per week, the risk was 63% lower for
| men who used the sauna 4-7 times per week (...)
|
| Aren't patients with cardiac problems generally discouraged from
| using sauna? Wouldn't that be a significant factor in this
| correlation?
| sgtnoodle wrote:
| The participants that suddenly dropped dead during the study
| were omitted from the results to avoid bias.
| hutzlibu wrote:
| Not generally, as far as I know. But of course, you have to be
| way more careful and conscious if you have a condition.
|
| So maybe not use the hottest sauna and push your limits and
| maybe no more sauna competitions. (Who can stay the longest,
| there used to be a world championship in this, but not anymore
| after one of the finalists - died).
| moffkalast wrote:
| > 22% lower for men using the sauna 2-3 times per week, the
| risk was 63% lower for men who used the sauna 4-7 times per
| week
|
| Extrapolating further, going to the sauna 10-14 times a week
| would make you immortal.
| codegladiator wrote:
| Extrapolating further, staying in the sauna indefinitely will
| age you down.
| shapefrog wrote:
| Checking with my slide ruler, can confirm your calculations
| are correct.
| 2000UltraDeluxe wrote:
| > Aren't patients with cardiac problems generally discouraged
| from using sauna?
|
| If so, I've never heard about it. In Finland, sauna is usually
| promoted as something that improves cardiovascular health.
| Associated activities like rolling in the snow or winter
| bathing is a completely different matter, but it's perfectly
| possible to enjoy sauna without those.
|
| I'm not a health professional, though, so check with your
| doctor first if you have heart problems.
| JimBlackwood wrote:
| This was also my experience in Finland. There were warning
| signs in some rented sauna's for jumping into the snow or
| water after a sauna for people suffering from cardiac
| problems.
|
| No note about sauna use in general.
| enra wrote:
| In US they basically discourage or warn people not to use
| sauna if they have any kind of condition, including being
| pregnant or have been consuming alcohol.
|
| In Finland most pregnant women have always gone to sauna and
| they haven't observed any kind of birth defects any more than
| elsewhere.
|
| Common sense applies and usually expected from adults in
| Finland. If you start to feel light headed or otherwise bad,
| you should leave the sauna and drink water or cool off.
| [deleted]
| dharmaturtle wrote:
| This is a good point, and was brought up in a response to a
| study from Laukkanen: https://sci-
| hub.se/10.1001/jamainternmed.2015.3432
|
| > heart rate increases up to 100 beats/min during sauna
| sessions at moderate temperatures and up to 150 beats/min
| during hotter saunas. Although not an issue for healthy
| individuals, such a cardiac challenge may feel uncomfortable
| for participants with poor cardiorespiratory fitness and pre-
| existing disease. Simple adjustment for disease vs no disease
| may not entirely solve this problem since reverse causation
| bias (ie, health status affects the likelihood of a sauna
| session) operates within disease groups; the more severe the
| disease, the greater the fear of cardiac challenge... A more
| robust finding at reduced risk of reverse causation bias would
| be a graded association between number of sauna sessions and
| mortality in an initially healthy, cardiorespiratory fit
| population, but this was not observed.
|
| Laukkanen responded with
|
| > ...we did observe graded inverse associations with sudden
| cardiac death (SCD), fatal coronary heart disease (CHD), and
| cardiovascular disease (CVD) events, which are the
| characteristics of a true inverse association between sauna
| bathing and outcomes. Furthermore, results were carefully
| adjusted for socioeconomic status (SES), physical activity, and
| cardiorespiratory fitness...
|
| Notably Laukkanen didn't say that the graded association was in
| an "initially healthy" population, as the first reply
| specified.
| wjnc wrote:
| It's from a prospective study [1] so the hope is No, as long as
| the study follows people and their habits for long enough.
|
| Edit: the first men in this study were enrolled in the mid 80s.
| I always have lots of respect for scientists starting such very
| long run initiatives. I would imagine it to be boring at times,
| but hard work begets hard data.
|
| [1] https://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT03221127#:~:text=STU
| D....
| civilized wrote:
| Ideally they would exclude from the study's analysis data any
| time in which a person was under such advisement to avoid the
| sauna for cardio reasons.
| chordalkeyboard wrote:
| ideally they would _include_ them and account for them in
| the analysis, as exclusion presents a confounding variable.
| civilized wrote:
| "Accounting for" using e.g. regression techniques is
| complex guesswork and leaves room for residual
| confounding. (Just try to imagine how _exactly_ you 'd do
| it in this case!)
|
| There is no perfect solution, but simply excluding
| problematic data is often the least confounding option.
| chordalkeyboard wrote:
| in this case, the data are not merely problematic, but
| actually relevant to the study's conclusion. excluding
| those data is certainly more confounding than including
| them, because those data are relevant to the conclusion
| of the study.
|
| Imagine if you did a study on whether air bags in
| automobiles reduced fatalities, and excluded
| 'problematic' data involving cases where the occupants
| were injured by the air bag.
| civilized wrote:
| I'm not saying to exclude the event where the person got
| heart disease. I'm saying to exclude the data after the
| diagnosis, where the person is avoiding the sauna under
| doctor's advice.
|
| This isn't difficult to do in a longitudinal study and
| would indeed be standard in many such studies. You
| wouldn't want to include data where the arrow of
| causation is _known_ to run opposite to what you are
| trying to test for.
| breck wrote:
| I believe this. I used to hate going in saunas because it was a
| bunch of old naked men. I get it, it's part of life, but if I
| wanted to see that I'd go to the maternity ward.
|
| Recently found some saunas that are just a bunch of old men in
| trunks and towels. These guys are healthy as Odysseus.
| smilespray wrote:
| Your local maternity ward is full of old naked men?
| breck wrote:
| Both of my daughters looked like naked old men when they were
| born. Then again they do have a very ugly dad (AFAIK --
| havent done 23andme yet).
| nathanvanfleet wrote:
| I used to use the sauna at the gym I went to back when I lived in
| Montreal, well during the winter at least. I really enjoyed it.
| But I don't really know where there is one in San Francisco.
| Maybe when I am very old and somehow buy a house (?) I will get a
| personal one. But the idea of a public sauna is nice but I guess
| antiquated.
| frob wrote:
| Archimedes Banya in South SF is a wonderful Russian bath house.
| There are 4 or 5 saunas of varying types, two hot tubs, a warm
| pool, and a cold plunge. I've been going there for at least 6
| years now and it's always been fantastic. https://banyasf.com/
| late2part wrote:
| I haven't been here, but you could do it up _Rounders_ style...
|
| https://banyasf.com/
| romanhn wrote:
| This is a good one. Just be aware that it is clothing-
| optional.
| 121789 wrote:
| There are a bunch of places. Mostly spas and gyms
| nathanasmith wrote:
| There are these sauna blankets[0] you might want to consider.
| It's basically a bag you lay in that uses infrared to mimic a
| sauna. I'm not affiliated in any way and have never used one so
| can't attest to its efficacy.
|
| [0]https://stylebyemilyhenderson.com/blog/infrared-sauna-
| blanke...
| akiselev wrote:
| SF has one of the best saunas I've ever been to: Archimedes
| Banya in Dogpatch. Tons of pools and sauna rooms at different
| temperatures, private rooms, food, outdoor balcony, and so on.
| ww520 wrote:
| Gyms usually have it. Most 24h Fitness Super gyms have it.
| Check out the gyms' websites.
| chiefalchemist wrote:
| In order to indulge in a sauna session you need free time. Also,
| saunas don't grow on trees. Access takes resources. I didn't see
| anything about how they controlled for this.
|
| It's an interesting finding but it feels closer to coorelation at
| this point.
| DoughnutHole wrote:
| Most of these studies were carried out in Finland, where saunas
| might as well grow on trees. They have more saunas than
| households, and there are public saunas accessible to anyone
| for free. Financial resources aren't an issue there with
| regards to saunas - everyone has access.
|
| I don't know about adjusting for free time, but the key studies
| in this review accounted for socio-economic status.
| chiefalchemist wrote:
| Good info. Thx.
|
| But it would help to know _exactly_ what this study did. None
| the less, even if saunas are ubiquitous and free, you still
| need free time. Being poor is more than a financial
| condition.
| ww520 wrote:
| Unless they've calibrated on the social-economical level of the
| control group, it could be just a proxy for wealth. People who
| can pay for better medical access can have better health.
| loufe wrote:
| To save you all the scroll down,
|
| 7. Conclusions Sauna bathing is associated with many health
| benefits, from cardiovascular and cognitive health to physical
| fitness and muscle maintenance. It is generally considered safe
| for healthy adults and may be safe for special populations with
| appropriate medical supervision. Heat stress via sauna use
| elicits hormetic responses driven by molecular mechanisms that
| protect the body from damage, similar to those elicited by
| moderate- to vigorous-intensity exercise, and may offer a means
| to forestall the effects of aging and extend healthspan.
| nopenopenopeno wrote:
| What is "healthspan"?
| avgcorrection wrote:
| Yeah, people talk about sauna in a health context (vaguely) but I
| almost never hear from them what the health benefits are supposed
| to be. I might be motivated to do it if there are benefits to it,
| but right now it feels like a bit of a chore.
| otikik wrote:
| I was raised on a place that reaches 49 degrees Celsius in
| summer. At night it would go down to a "pleasant" 37.
|
| I have had enough sauna for the rest of my life, thank you very
| much.
| kekebo wrote:
| Lari and Tanjaniina Laukkanen do interesting research on this,
| notably the 2015 paper that shows up to 40% reduction in all
| cause mortality with 4-7 sauna sessions per week vs 1 (in 2315
| middle-aged men over about 20 years):
|
| https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamainternalmedicine/articl...
| mirekrusin wrote:
| If somebody can afford 7 sauna sessions per week, money aspect
| of their life is likely sorted out which surely impacts all
| cause mortality.
| bubblethink wrote:
| Lots of gyms/clubs have sauna, and through group/family plans
| and such, they can be reasonably priced ( less than 100 a
| month)
| scyzoryk_xyz wrote:
| I think this might be dependent on location in the world
| and the local culture. Where I am in Europe, sauna is
| commonly available and reasonably low-cost as a public
| space. But I can imagine many places in the US still only
| having sauna in country clubs or at high-end sports
| facilities. The POV that sauna is for the privileged few is
| perfectly understandable and yet hilariously alien to those
| of us from places where sauna is common.
|
| The idea of having a completely private sauna- now that
| sounds like a luxury I can only hope to afford one day!
| Ndymium wrote:
| If you have a sauna in your home (which most Finns do), then
| you can afford to use it 4-7 times a week even if you're not
| rich. Though maybe not with the current electricity prices,
| but earlier it was no problem. I'd say 7 times is a bit
| excessive though, but I know people for whom 4 times a week
| would be normal.
| nopenopenopeno wrote:
| That's a moot point. If you have a sauna in your home and
| the time to use it, you're rich enough that the above holds
| true.
| enra wrote:
| In Finland there is like 2M saunas for 5.5M people. Most
| houses have one, larger apartments have one, and
| apartment buildings have a shared one. It usually built
| inside the bathroom and can very small one just to fit 2
| people. You can probably build one with $1-2k (if you do
| most of the work yourself). The most expensive part is
| the heater. It's no way only for the rich.
|
| Finland might be rich in global standard in like other
| western country but most people are middle class and
| generally lower wealth than some other European
| countries. they still use saunas.
|
| Time-wise, it takes 1-2h to heat up a sauna. You can have
| one that the heater is insulated and has a top so it can
| be always on. Then you just remove the top and sauna is
| ready in 15mins. If you are working class, you still have
| time to a sauna in evening.
|
| Now the main problem is the electricity cost. Many have
| wood heated saunas in the contryside or at their family's
| summer cottage where you get the wood for free from your
| own forest.
| nopenopenopeno wrote:
| Like I said, if you have a sauna in your home and the
| time to use it, you're rich enough that the above holds
| true. Whether that's most people or a only few.
| jtakkala wrote:
| Did you even read the comment above? Sauna usage in
| Finland has basically no correlation with socioeconomic
| status. Pretty much everyone has access to a sauna and
| the time to use one. Not only is it a tradition, but
| Finland goes to great lengths to prioritize the health
| and welfare of all its citizens, regardless of ones
| wealth.
| hazard wrote:
| If only the authors had considered this...
|
| > Noncausal mechanisms, including socioeconomic status
| and reverse causation bias, have been proposed as
| contributors to the KIHD findings (Kivimaki et al.,
| 2015). Although differences in socioeconomic status may
| influence sauna access and opportunities for use, the
| robust dose-dependent associations observed between sauna
| bathing and sudden cardiac death, coronary artery
| disease, and cardiovascular events in the KIHD studies
| are indicative of genuine inverse associations (Laukkanen
| et al., 2015a). Furthermore, the KIHD studies were
| conducted in Finland, where sauna use is deeply rooted in
| the culture, and saunas are readily accessible (Laukkanen
| et al., 2015a). Similarly, whereas reverse causation bias
| figures prominently in observational studies and is a
| valid concern when investigating links between
| cardiovascular disease and lifestyle, the KIHD findings
| were adjusted for potential biases, including lifestyle
| factors such as socioeconomic status, physical activity,
| and cardiorespiratory fitness (Laukkanen et al., 2015a).
| paulywog wrote:
| I once had a gym membership which included a sauna, and would
| often take some time in the sauna after a workout. It really
| just depends how you want to spend your time
| Grustaf wrote:
| All gyms and pools in Europe have saunas, is that not the
| case in the US?
| jononomo wrote:
| What about hot yoga?
| thenerdhead wrote:
| Similar to Japan's snow monkeys, it was originally thought they
| go to hot springs to warm up. When observed, one of the primary
| benefits that was found is stress reduction. The monkeys have
| enough fur to stay warm in the cold and don't often need to go to
| the springs for food from tourists either. Not only does it
| reduce their stress, it helps with reproduction rates and extends
| their survival rates at the same time that was found.
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_macaque
|
| https://www.nationalgeographic.com/animals/article/japanese-...
| tingletech wrote:
| related: The Science & Health Benefits of Deliberate Heat
| Exposure | Huberman Lab Podcast #69 (April 2022)
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EQ3GjpGq5Y8
| steele wrote:
| Saunas or ice baths? Inquiring scrotums wanna know.
| bilsbie wrote:
| How is this not just healthy (and rich) user bais?
| Etheryte wrote:
| In Finland, nearly everyone has access to a sauna, it's not a
| rich person's thing. According to some sources [0] there are
| 3.3 million saunas in Finland, per a population of 5.5 million.
| By some estimates [1], there are more saunas than there are
| homes in Finland.
|
| [0] https://finland.fi/life-society/bare-facts-of-the-sauna
|
| [1] https://www.finnwards.com/living-in-finland/how-much-do-
| home...
| faangiq wrote:
| Clearly not. But it's enjoyable.
| faebi wrote:
| Has anyone tried one of these 1000-2000$ Sauna's one can buy on
| Amazon and similar? Are they good enough for average people? I'm
| living in a rented flat and think I could fit one on part of my
| balcony.
| theNJR wrote:
| I'm trying to figure this out too.
|
| This would fit for me, and reviews seem good, but hard to
| really know - https://a.co/d/2wU3ycJ
|
| Reddit seems to like this one
| https://www.cedarbrooksauna.com/36x42-near-infrared-cedar-sa...
| criddell wrote:
| Those are generally near IR saunas, right? I haven't seen one
| that gets hot enough (although I don't remember the exact
| details).
| dharmaturtle wrote:
| I built a super cheap "traditional" dry sauna. It's basically
| an electric burner, a pot to increase surface area and
| humidity, a 25 foot roll of thermal foil, and a sleeping bag as
| the ceiling. I disassembled the burner, removed all the plastic
| pieces, and short circuited the safety cutoff. It's jank AF,
| but in the end less than 100$. AFAIK there aren't any dry
| saunas under $1000 - the heater alone is ~$200. Mine is also
| portable, so it's in the garage in summer and in the laundry
| room in winter. There are portable infrared saunas for ~$100,
| but most studies are on the "dry" type. I rubber band a block
| of ice to my phone and do my reading/social media in there, so
| the time cost is reduced. It's pitch black in there, so I have
| a very bright night light. No problems with air circulation -
| it doesn't get stuffy, even when I throw a dash of water in the
| pot.
|
| https://i.imgur.com/Lml7Vms.jpg
|
| 2 years in and I haven't burned down the house... yet. I've
| since added more ceramic around the pot so burning myself would
| be very difficult.
|
| (Reference to my post from the last time this article was
| posted on HN: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28495062 )
| hammock wrote:
| Where do you sit?
| [deleted]
| dharmaturtle wrote:
| On that very, very short wooden rectangle in the center of
| the platform in the photo. It's less a thing I sit on and
| more something I "asian squat" on. So I end up facing the
| burner (though it's now shielded with ceramic).
| 42e6e8c8-f7b8-4 wrote:
| You feel like you've been duped by Skymall, but these $170
| personal suana tents actually work
| https://www.amazon.com/SereneLife-AZSLISAU10BK-Portable-Infr...
|
| If you can endure the mockery of your room mates, you will
| indeed get a good sweat going.
| jerlam wrote:
| I bought one of these sauna tents and it was pretty
| underwhelming. I can barely stand 30 minutes in a real sauna
| - in this home sauna tent, I watched an entire movie (two
| hours) and had to get out more from boredom than the heat.
| burritosnob wrote:
| I bought one of the ~$400 tent saunas on Amazon and it was the
| best health related purchase in recent years. It only gets to
| 135 degrees, whereas the one at gym reached nearly 200, but it
| feels hotter and I can only last about half the time.
|
| I sit in it at least once a day followed by a 10-15 minute cold
| shower where I drink a 32oz of water and another 32oz of water
| mixed with popular powdered green vitamin.
|
| For these familiar with Whoop, I consistently have 5-10% better
| recoveries and sleep performance on the days I use the sauna. I
| also feel better which is what really matters.
| superamit wrote:
| Can you link to the one you bought and liked?
| burritosnob wrote:
| https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07WC64NPQ/ref=ppx_yo_dt_
| b...
|
| Worth noting, the first one lasted 13 months before the
| frame became fairly rusty/moldy from sweat. I would put
| most the blame here on me though as I was only one using it
| so I didn't always wipe up the pool of sweat after use. I
| would also say I'm on the extreme end of customers using it
| once or twice daily.
|
| The second one, which I bought last month, now has a
| plastic frame instead of metal so should be non-issue. It
| also now has a washable foam floor panel I take out after
| each use to dry and can be machine washed.
|
| Nerdy addition, I got paranoid about some Amazon
| reviews/comments mentioning EMF exposure so I bought an EMF
| meter to test the sauna. I don't remember exact reading but
| it rated lower than sitting in my car while idling. While
| it may still have been high for some, I justified it by the
| fact I'm driving far less since I WFH so in the end about
| the same.
| giardini wrote:
| Surely you can "try before you buy" by visiting a local gym or
| sauna? And thus avoid buying, storing and setting up, all of
| which would be lost time and effort were it to prove unsuitable
| for you.
| eesmith wrote:
| I read faebi's comment as wanting to have a sauna (perhaps
| from experience at a gym, etc. and liking it) and wondering
| if it those saunas were actually practical.
|
| Thought that come to my mind are: How much power does it
| draw? How long does it take to warm up? How hot do they go?
| How easy are they to install? - and to take down when moving
| out? And to clean/maintain?
| iso1631 wrote:
| https://www.centurysaunas.co.uk/how-much-does-a-sauna-
| cost-t...
|
| Says an electric heater (not infrared) sauna is about 4.5kW
| (about half my shower), takes about 40 minutes to heat up,
| then 20 minutes in it, so say 5kWh if you time it right,
| maybe 8kWh if you have a longer time in it or aren't
| perfectly tires. Even at current uncapped UK prices of
| 60p/kWh that's about the cost of a takeaway coffee.
|
| I'd use a sauna a lot more if the UK were like Germany (I
| was in Munich recently for work and used it every day),
| however there are rarely saunas in UK hotels, and those
| that are require you to wear clothes! Sadly haven't got
| enough space at home for one.
| kampsduac wrote:
| I got a sauna blanket about a year ago and enjoy it enough
| (considering the price and space it takes up)
|
| https://higherdose.com/products/infrared-sauna-blanket
| dukeofdoom wrote:
| Not to be skeptical of this article...but I can easily make
| similar claims:
|
| Just get a kayak and it will do all these things too if you use
| it. Exercise, vitamin d, nature, fresh air, healthier lifestyle.
|
| You can jump in cold water after to stress you body in similar
| way to Sauna, and or take a hot bath with Epsom salts after you
| get home.
|
| Bring a fishing pole and you can fish from the kayak too, so it
| can help feed you some delicious healthy source of protein. Heck
| buy two Kayaks and bring a friend. Now you have a social life.
| fasteddie31003 wrote:
| I've been doing 5 sauna sessions a week for about 25 minutes at
| 200F for about a year now. Once I've been sufficiently dehydrated
| from the sauna I take a multivitamin and chug some water. My
| thought is that your cells are more receptive to water soluble
| vitamins after being dehydrated and you won't just pee out the
| vitamins. I've seen a lot of health benefits such as clearer
| skin, good sleep, and no illnesses for the past year. That's my N
| or 1 study.
| saiya-jin wrote:
| If you just pop vitamins in water without any fat ingested, the
| most critical ones solluble in fat will swipe through your body
| regardless. Its hard to give any conclusion just some limited
| experience, although I have no doubt that the procedure you
| describe benefits you overall.
|
| I was doing before sauna quite often after workouts in the gym
| (well after weight lifting and not cardio, and _not_ during
| summer) and it felt great. But it could have been 90% or even
| 100% the workouts. Its true that I often feel very tired after
| sauna, like a baby that just wants to sleep. Which may be great
| sometimes, but otherwise it isn 't (ie coming back to work, or
| driving back for 1h from mountains).
|
| Now during/after covid and after having 2 kids its a distant
| dream and I feel like shit.
| Reason077 wrote:
| Wouldn't taking a nice hot bath have similar effects? I also
| tend to feel a bit dehydrated afterwards, if the water is
| particularly hot!
| bitL wrote:
| Try to restrict the stay in the hot to around 10 minutes
| followed by 2 minutes immersed in cold water, repeating that
| 4-5x in a row with multivitamin/multimineral water in-between.
| That resets my brain and I feel like a newborn.
| fasteddie31003 wrote:
| Yep I do this too. I have an outdoor shower that cools me off
| pretty fast. I gotta wait another couple months before there
| is snow on the ground to roll around in.
| bitL wrote:
| Cold shower is great, immersing yourself fully in cold
| water is like one notch more intense as body has no parts
| that are still hot anywhere. I basically see all my veins
| when I get out of the cold water, like after an intense 2h
| bike ride.
| benjaminwootton wrote:
| 1 hour of sauna is quite the commitment.
| bitL wrote:
| Try it once, then evaluate ;-)
| gambiting wrote:
| I mean, not to disagree with you, but I have seen those exact
| same benefits just staying locked up for a year at home because
| of the pandemic. Turns out not having a bullshit commute,
| eating more healthy and not interacting with other people does
| miracles for skin, sleep quality and the number of illnesses
| you catch :-)
| Jimajesty wrote:
| But what would happen if you combined both? Best skin in the
| game.
| isoprophlex wrote:
| You are not wrong I think, I can never go back to commuting
| every day, and I love cooking my own healthy food... but
| after 2+ years of lockdown my entire household seems to have
| lost all immunity to everything pathological. The amount of
| shit the kids seem to catch at school is staggering.
|
| N=1 and highly subjective of course, but I don't remember A)
| our kids falling ill with random fevers so often, pre-
| pandemic and B) my wife and me being infected by them in turn
| so easily
| Retric wrote:
| As I recall, kids and teachers would regularly be low level
| sick during school, which seems to be supported here:
|
| "It varies a lot among kids. But most babies, toddlers and
| preschoolers can have as many as 12 colds a year and still
| be normal. On average, you'll probably see between seven
| and eight infections a year. This number may be higher for
| children who are in child care or when they start school.
| It's also typical for kids to have symptoms lasting up to
| 14 days. And sometimes a cough can last up to six weeks.
| That means kids can be sick for a majority of the year and
| still have a pretty typical immune system."
| https://mcpress.mayoclinic.org/parenting/the-constant-
| cold-w...
| bobthepanda wrote:
| Kids are basically building up their immune systems. With
| poor hygiene practices and a tendency to touch everything
| (and then their face or mouth) it's unavoidable.
|
| That being said, I do remember that the first cold season
| after people started going out again being nastier than
| normal.
| isoprophlex wrote:
| Holy hell okay that's... terrifying and comforting.
| Definitely feeling some confirmation bias on my part.
| thih9 wrote:
| Is this now a N=2 study with grandparent as the test group
| and parent as the control group?
| sgtnoodle wrote:
| I take immunosuppressants and have a kid in pre-school, so
| maybe I should get a sauna...
| tsol wrote:
| So perhaps they both reduce stress?
| Reason077 wrote:
| I'm not sure that "not interacting with other people" is
| likely to be conductive to long-term health? The other things
| all sound pretty positive, however.
| hutzlibu wrote:
| I would skip the artificial vitamins and see if it makes any
| difference (I doubt it).
|
| I rather would go with cold water shower/bath after the sauna
| and healthy food for vitamins in general.
| jordanbeiber wrote:
| Yes, there was a large study here in Sweden a few years back
| that indicated vitamin supplements tend to do more harm than
| good.
|
| Seems like it's been more or less confirmed by other studies
| as well.
|
| Eat some fruit and a carrot!
| MrDresden wrote:
| Out of interest, would you happen to have a link or
| reference to those studies?
| legulere wrote:
| > Research into the effects of saunas on people largely comes
| from Finland. It is generally of low quality and insufficient to
| make health recommendations.
|
| https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sauna#Health_effects
| darawk wrote:
| TFA cites a number of RCTs that seem reasonably high quality to
| me:
|
| https://www.jstage.jst.go.jp/article/circj/68/12/68_12_1146/...
|
| https://www.jstage.jst.go.jp/article/circj/80/4/80_CJ-16-005...
|
| https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S01675...
|
| https://www.nature.com/articles/s41371-017-0008-z (this one
| isn't an RCT, it's just a pre/post design, but is still
| experimental)
|
| Note: this list is not exhaustive, I just plucked a few out.
| I'd like to see slightly larger sample sizes in a few of them,
| but otherwise they seem structurally reasonable, and many are
| in Japan, not Finland.
| Gatsky wrote:
| These are all looking at various surrogate endpoints, and
| seem to be short term interventions. At best you could say
| they show saunas are safe for populations with heart disease.
| Cardiac and overall mortality would be the key endpoint to
| test in a large RCT. Even so, there won't be a placebo. The
| control group would have to do _something_ for it to be a
| fair comparison... perhaps something sauna-like but with less
| physiological impact (Massage? A cooler sauna?).
| SECProto wrote:
| Looks like you can take this new study, and use it to expand
| that section (and remove the unsourced generalization about
| research being low quality)
|
| (edit: did so myself)
| rdtwo wrote:
| Where can one actually buy a decent quality Finnish sauna? There
| are a lot of crap products out there but what's a good basic well
| designed 2-3 person sauna?
| dubcanada wrote:
| If you can find one through one of their partners
| https://eurodita.com/category/timber-sauna-pods-barrels/ are
| pretty decent.
| lifeisstillgood wrote:
| Used to love this at London's Gyms - but after lockdown, they all
| seemed to take the opportunity to close down the expensive, prone
| to breaking saunas. And yes they were elitist and expensive. And
| I loved taking five minutes to relax before cubicle life.
| Madmallard wrote:
| Doesn't a hot shower function almost identically?
| deegles wrote:
| I used to love using the sauna but I don't have faith that I can
| avoid catching Covid in one.
| cinntaile wrote:
| The virus dies within a couple of minutes due to the heat.
| deegles wrote:
| If the person sitting next to you in a sauna has it, that's
| plenty of time to catch it? Also, there isn't enough heat to
| kill it in the locker rooms or rest of the gym (where I have
| access to one.)
| cinntaile wrote:
| It would likely depend lots of factors. A big factor should
| be how long you sit there, since it's a sauna you don't
| usually sit there for that long.
|
| The gyms never closed here and they looked at the data.
| They found that gymgoers didn't catch covid in a higher
| degree than regular people during the pandemic, you should
| see if there exists a similar analysis for where you live.
| hn_throwaway_99 wrote:
| Another example of something that feels pretty awesome that is
| also good for you. I strongly believe that, in the US in
| particular, we somehow developed this warped Puritanical idea
| that things that are "good for you" need to be painful or taste
| bad. We've also managed to often replace things that _are_ both
| exquisitely wonderful for the senses _and_ good for you with
| "cheap knock off" versions that are worse for you in all areas,
| both health-wise and experience-wise. Think a delicious dark
| chocolate (consensus seems to be lots of antioxidant benefits) vs
| a Hershey bar that is loaded with more sugar and tastes slightly
| of vomit.
|
| Some more things that feel wonderful and are good for you that
| many Americans seem to have trouble appreciating for some reason:
|
| 1. sleep
|
| 2. a delicious meal with lots of fresh vegetables, fruits, nuts,
| etc.
|
| 3. a massage
|
| 4. exercise with friends (e.g. a jog or walk through the park, or
| a game of tennis).
|
| 5. a bike ride
| el_nahual wrote:
| I would add (controversially) "the sun" to that list.
|
| The sun is delicious. The sun is also good for you. The sun
| makes you look good.
|
| And yet Americans have an almost belligerent attitude towards
| the sun. Hats, sunscreen, long sleeved shirts, umbrellas.
| Adults, children, everyone is perpetually hiding from the sun,
| and they look kinda sickly.
|
| Can the sun give you skin cancer? Yes, of course. (In the same
| way a sauna can give you a heart attack i suppose). But the
| benefits to overall _wellness_ are incredible.
| meowmeowmoo wrote:
| Can't you still benefit from sunlight with sunscreen on? I
| wonder what the risk curve for skin cancer from sun exposure
| looks like.
| avgcorrection wrote:
| I guess it doesn't help that many Americans are white
| European descendants that live in
| subtropical/tropical/mediterrannean climates.
| ravenstine wrote:
| Generally, I agree, but "feels good" doesn't translate well
| between individuals. To many, eating a jelly donut "feels
| good", at least in the short term. Most people don't excel at
| long term thinking, and so whether one feels good probably
| isn't a great metric for whether one is doing something
| beneficial.
|
| Another thing is that I personally wouldn't consider 4 out of
| the 5 things you listed to feel good, and in a few cases I
| don't even find them to be linearly beneficial. The kind of
| cardio exercise you mentioned (all exercise is cardio BTW) is
| something I don't enjoy before or after. Things like bike
| riding have both positives and negatives, and I am not a fan of
| the high cortisol state that results. I'm not saying riding
| bikes is bad, but if I was totally oblivious to the health
| benefits, I would find it to be a slog once I got over the
| novelty
| meowmeowmoo wrote:
| Biking results in high cortisol? Doesn't exercise reduce
| stress hormones? I'm assuming you're saying exercise causes
| short-term spikes in cortisol?
| echelon wrote:
| > fruits
|
| One that only belongs in careful moderation.
|
| Edit: I'm getting downvoted, so I'll elaborate. The sugar
| content of fruit is not great for you. The beneficial effects
| of the fiber and vitamin content do not offset the detrimental
| effects of the sugar.
|
| Treat fruit as you would a dessert. In moderation.
| ravenstine wrote:
| Fruits are fine occasionally, but they aren't a health food.
| Fructose is totally contraindicated. People need to keep this
| in mind when suggesting to eat plenty of fruits. There is no
| need to do so even from a Vitamin C standpoint.
| meowmeowmoo wrote:
| Fruits have other vitamins. And aren't they also a good
| source of antioxidants?
| ravenstine wrote:
| You can get those vitamins from other vegetables that are
| less deleterious. Even beef contains pretty much
| everything you need but without the liver toxicity of
| fructose.
|
| As far as antioxidants go, yeah... those are totally
| overrated. The human body, with the exception of Vitamin
| C, creates its own antioxidants. Adding exogenous
| antioxidants isn't particularly beneficial and can also
| come with some drawbacks. Any benefit you get from fruit
| antioxidants is outweighed by fructose. Sure, feel good
| about getting some anthocyanins and whatever from the
| occasional blueberries, but by no means do you need
| those, and don't pound blueberries every single day.
| echelon wrote:
| Vegetables are too, and they're overwhelmingly better for
| you.
| setheron wrote:
| Love my sauna but never know if I'm staying too short or too long
| to achieve the positive effects.
|
| I stay in maybe 5-10 minutes and have it reach 200F
| marstall wrote:
| I've been listening to Rhonda Patrick's podcast,
| FoundMyFitness. She's a Sauna buff and cites studies saying 175
| degrees for 20 minutes 4-7 times a week is the sweet spot in a
| "Finnish Sauna" (ie not infrared)
| jdeaton wrote:
| Did you notice she is the first author of this review?
| steve_adams_86 wrote:
| You might find this episode of Huberman Lab[1] helpful. He goes
| in depth on current research about why deliberate heat exposure
| benefits our bodies and how you can use things like saunas to
| trigger the benefits. I listened but didn't pay too close
| attention to practices because I don't own a sauna, but I'm
| fairly sure a lot of the content would be helpful.
|
| [1] https://hubermanlab.com/the-science-and-health-benefits-
| of-d...
| mbrock wrote:
| Have you tried alternating with refreshing cool showers or
| baths? That's what I really like about sauna.
| [deleted]
| rikelmens wrote:
| Real benefits start after the body starts feeling
| uncomfortable. Don't push it too much after that. Cool down,
| repeat 2-3 times.
| 2000UltraDeluxe wrote:
| Go for break once you feel you're done, go take a dip in a lake
| or roll in the snow (or a cold shower). After that, another
| 10-15 minutes in the sauna should feel nice. Repeat if you feel
| like it.
|
| Here in Finland, it's customary to enjoy a cold beer in the
| sauna as well (or more, but that kinda nullifies any health
| benefits). Cooling your mouth down makes the sauna experience
| better -- if you don't want a beer then sparkling water will
| also do the trick.
| pelasaco wrote:
| and unfortunately because of the high energy costs in Germany,
| the sauna that I used to visit weekly, will mostly be closed over
| winter, actually they closed it already.
| _dain_ wrote:
| yes the energy austerity will have so many sad downstream
| effects, including death of sauna culture :(
|
| nuclear vandalists have a lot to answer for.
| pelasaco wrote:
| Yes, well, first Putin, then our government in the last 16
| years for becoming so dependent from Russia and then
| ideology..
| siliconc0w wrote:
| I envoy an infrared sauna but they usually top out at around
| 140F. The studies they're referring to are Finnish studies that
| use dry heat (heated rocks) that go a bit higher than that to
| 175F+ which I'm pretty sure I'd enjoy less. So before you buy an
| IR sauna (which I've thought about), the published data for their
| health benefits is limited. Which makes sense, if it's easy it
| isn't as an effective stressor.
| SebaSeba wrote:
| The usual and the right way to enjoy finnish sauna is by
| throwing water on the hot rocks every 30-60 seconds or so. That
| way the heat is very endurable, feels very nice and the sauna
| is actually very humid. Trust me, I am a finn.
| darawk wrote:
| Most of the studies I see listed refer to "Waon therapy" which
| use IR saunas. At least, the RCTs they cite seem to mostly do
| that.
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