[HN Gopher] Looped Square Or [?]
___________________________________________________________________
Looped Square Or [?]
Author : Ali_Zaferani
Score : 201 points
Date : 2022-09-29 12:23 UTC (1 days ago)
(HTM) web link (en.wikipedia.org)
(TXT) w3m dump (en.wikipedia.org)
| c-smile wrote:
| What was wrong with CTRL?
|
| What for is that frustration of us who work on different
| platforms?
| wtvanhest wrote:
| I moved from PC to Mac at work. Anyone have any suggestions on
| the best guides to get up and running on default hotkeys?
| perceptronas wrote:
| >The [?] symbol (the "looped square") was chosen by Susan Kare
| after Steve Jobs decided that the use of the Apple logo in the
| menu system (where the keyboard shortcuts are displayed) would be
| an over-use of the logo
|
| Never thought about over-use of the logo, but Jobs did have a
| good point. I always felt that Windows key on keyboards felt a
| bit ugly and out of place.
| asveikau wrote:
| Important to note the relationship between Microsoft and PC
| OEMs. The same time period that introduced the Windows key
| (late 90s) was also one in which some (Be Inc.?) accused
| Microsoft of having anticompetitive practices in their
| contracts with OEMs, such as charging for Windows licenses even
| if a machine was not pre installed with Windows. Forcing
| adoption of the Windows key seems right in line with that.
|
| I remember Linux advocates being very irritated by the sudden
| introduction of that key. If you got a PC in 1996, no windows
| logo on the keyboard. By 1998 they all had it.
| joeframbach wrote:
| Sure, but I wish they would at least be consistent. My 2015
| external keyboard has keys for "control", "alt/option", and
| "command [?]". I'll find documentation online that says "press
| the [?] key" and I'm like, what the hell is that?
| [deleted]
| loevborg wrote:
| Out of place and an example of Microsoft's bad taste
| mrzool wrote:
| From what I understand Jobs was probably fine with using the
| Apple logo on the physical key, the problem was rather
| displaying the logo everywhere in the menus, where the
| shortcuts are displayed. That would have been way too much
| indeed.
| mitchdoogle wrote:
| Most likely it would have been abbreviated as Apl, similar to
| how the windows key is Win when shown in menus of keyboard
| shortcuts
| JadeNB wrote:
| macOS (even back when it was OS X, and I assume before
| that) systematically refers to special keys with symbols,
| not written names. In addition to the CMD symbol, SHIFT is
| |, CTRL is ^, and ALT/OPT is [?].
| bin_bash wrote:
| I've always wondered why they don't put the shift symbol
| on the keyboards when all the other symbols exist
| JadeNB wrote:
| > I've always wondered why they don't put the shift
| symbol on the keyboards when all the other symbols exist.
|
| My keyboard doesn't have any key for the symbol [?] or
| [?], either. Or do you mean that all the other modifier
| keys on Mac-branded keyboards are labelled with their
| symbols, whereas shift isn't?
| [deleted]
| bin_bash wrote:
| On my M1 MacBook Pro I see symbols on all modifiers
| except shift
| JadeNB wrote:
| So you meant that the non-shift modifier keys have
| symbols on them (same for me!), not that there is a key
| that is intended to produce the symbol that denotes the
| modifier, right?
| bouke wrote:
| Some keyboards use icons, others text. See for example
| this: https://support.apple.com/library/content/dam/edam/
| applecare....
| underwater wrote:
| And they sell keyboards that only use the written names,
| and not the symbols. Plus make common keyboard shortcuts
| require multiple modifier keys.
| MBCook wrote:
| Correct. That's what it did in System 6 and 7, if I
| remember correctly. Those were the first/oldest Macs I've
| used.
| drewzero1 wrote:
| I can't imagine them doing that when they already had an
| Apple logo symbol built into the font in ROM. They were
| trying really hard to emphasize the graphical capabilities
| of the Mac, and using a text abbreviation like that would
| have felt like a waste of those capabilities.
| ksherlock wrote:
| Microsoft has no taste. The Apple IIgs used an Apple icon.
|
| https://imgur.com/0FzDRjl
| ianai wrote:
| MS not having taste is both a bug and a feature.
| aidenn0 wrote:
| Indeed, I may be misremembering, but I think macintoshes had
| both the looped circle _and_ the apple logo. Some of the
| Apple II series had two apple keys, one open and one filled.
| drewzero1 wrote:
| When I was in school (beige Macintosh era) our teachers
| told us the keyboard shortcuts as "open apple-S" or "open
| apple-Q". At the time the keyboards did indeed have both
| the looped circle and the Apple logo[0], but both were open
| apples. I had an Apple IIe at home but hadn't figured out
| keyboard shortcuts yet.
|
| 0: https://deskthority.net/wiki/File:Apple_Extended_II_Salm
| on_U...
| aidenn0 wrote:
| Oh, I recognize those ALPS-style keyswitch tops anywhere.
| It was definitely the IIe I was thinking of as the ones
| with the open and closed apple.
| dhosek wrote:
| That came in beginning with the //e, they were mapped to be
| equivalent to paddle button 1 and 2. Ctrl-open apple-reset
| triggered a reboot. It's 36 years since I've used an Apple
| //e but this is still wired deep in my brain. This approach
| to the new keys meant that applications could use the two
| Apple keys as modifiers without a whole lot of effort since
| you could read the key press and state of the paddle button
| easily enough.
|
| At some point, they also required ctrl to be pressed along
| side reset to prevent it from being accidentally triggered
| (it was right next to the return key). Reset on its own
| terminated the currently running program (as opposed to
| ctrl-c which stopped a BASIC program but you could resume
| the program--this was an early means of debugging since you
| could do things like PRINT A$ to see the value of A$ at the
| time that you stopped the program or even alter program
| variables before resuming).
|
| There was one occasion when someone at my high school was
| experiencing great frustration because every time he did
| ctrl-reset, the computer rebooted. It turned out that a
| book was sitting on top of the paddles depressing the
| button.
| js2 wrote:
| > It's 36 years since I've used an Apple //e
| ] CALL -151 * 3D0G ] PR#6
| neilv wrote:
| https://i.pinimg.com/736x/46/6d/53/466d53a208f3e92ec343ef9b
| d...
| fein wrote:
| Yes, it was this way on my IIGS. Wide "command" button with
| the apple on the left and looped circle on the right side
| of the key.
| scelerat wrote:
| I think the open apple was introduced with the ADB
| keyboards, which worked both with Macintosh and IIGS
| computers. The open apple was for Apple II computers and
| applications; the knotty loop was for the Mac and its
| applications.
|
| The original Mac keyboards (serial, with the telephone
| handset connector) did not have the open apple symbol. I
| don't recall any Mac applications making reference to the
| open Apple key, it was always "Command Key." From the Mac
| side, "open apple" was a colloquialism.
| fuckstick wrote:
| The open/closed Apple dates back to at least the Apple
| IIe in 1983.
| scelerat wrote:
| I meant introduced to the Mac/Mac users
| herrvogel- wrote:
| There is this great talk[0] by Susan Kare. At 14:30 she talks
| about this and explains how the [?] came to be.
|
| [0] https://vimeo.com/151277875
| codetrotter wrote:
| Susan Kare is also the designer of Dogcow btw :D
|
| https://512pixels.net/dogcow/
| fossuser wrote:
| She also has a personal website where she still makes and
| sells great stuff!
|
| https://kareprints.com/
| warent wrote:
| Amazing, thank you! just bought her hand painted :D cant
| wait to have in the office
| https://kareprints.com/products/hand-painted-japanese-
| woodcu...
| xav_authentique wrote:
| Susan Kare talked about the backstory in this presentation:
| https://vimeo.com/97583369#t=493s
| Cockbrand wrote:
| A lot more backstories to many design, technical and
| political aspects of early Macintosh development can be found
| at https://www.folklore.org/ - it's a real treasure trove for
| people interested in how the Mac came to be.
| pmelendez wrote:
| I agree, and it is one of those things where buying the
| printed version makes so much sense:
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revolution_in_the_Valley
| jxramos wrote:
| The windows key is very mnemonic in nature because window
| correlates to display and to an app window from which there are
| multiple display/window moving keyboard shortcuts tied to that
| magic button
|
| https://apple.stackexchange.com/questions/367858/does-macos-...
|
| Window+Right --> move this window to the right of the display,
| to the second monitor if repeated
| lewantmontreal wrote:
| ChromeOS had a similar chance to make Search button (Globe)
| the window management key. But somehow they messed it up and
| now window/desktop management is sometimes using Search
| button, other times using Alt. Huge missed opportunity for
| those of us with worse memory.
|
| https://support.google.com/chromebook/answer/183101
| xattt wrote:
| This metaphor has been a thing since Windows 7. Prior to
| this, the Windows key was for the start menu only since
| Windows 95.
| alisonatwork wrote:
| It's been a long time since I used Windows 95, but I'm
| pretty sure most of the basic window manager keypresses
| were there. Stuff like Win+R (run), Win+E (explorer), Win+M
| (minimize everything) etc.
| thorin wrote:
| Thanks for that one, I use the Windows shortcut keys, but
| hadn't noticed that but now I have lots of monitor space it
| will be quite useful!
| notRobot wrote:
| Ctrl + win + left/right to switch desktops
|
| Win + left/right/up/down to move around windows
|
| Win + tab for an overview of all windows and desktops
| alisonatwork wrote:
| Windows key is super-useful on Windows, and it gets better
| every version.
|
| Aside from the Win+Arrow combinations, which are probably
| among the most useful, other ones that I use daily are
| Win+. to bring up emoji keyboard, Win+V to bring up
| clipboard history, Win+T to navigate the
| quicklaunch/taskbar apps and (less frequently) Win+Plus and
| Win+Minus to zoom the display. There are some new settings
| shortcuts too like Win+A for mini-settings (like Android
| swipe from top), Win+I for proper settings and Win+P for
| projector settings.
|
| Plus there are all the old keypresses that have been around
| forever like Win+R run, Win+L lock workstation, Win+M
| minimize everything, Win+D for show desktop toggle, Win+S
| for search (used to be Win+F/find), Win+E explore... I
| think nowadays I use Windows button as much as I do Control
| and Shift.
|
| Alt is less useful since applications stopped having menus,
| but AltGr is great for international input. I suppose
| Win+Space is important to know too, if you switch keyboards
| a lot (I do).
| asdajksah2123 wrote:
| Windows is a really good OS to manage windows.
|
| The Gnome and friends defaults puts Linux in 2nd place IMO.
| However, like nearly everything Linux, if you're willing to
| put in a little bit of effort and/or go down more esoteric
| routes (i3 is clearly the most efficient I've ever
| been...the problem is that I'm forced to use macOS and
| Windows as well, and switching from i3 to the others is
| really difficult) it can easily be the best.
|
| macOS seems the weakest. There are utilities that can equal
| functionality from the other OSes, but even then it feels
| unnatural (a lot of animations in nearly everything doesn't
| help)
| hericium wrote:
| > > Steve Jobs decided that the use of the Apple logo in the
| menu system (...) would be an over-use of the logo
|
| I actually find those Apple bumper stickers to be logo over-
| use. Especially when a car has more than one.
| nikau wrote:
| About 10-15 years ago I don't think there was a single VW
| golf around here without a white apple silhouette sticker on
| it
| hericium wrote:
| > I always felt that Windows key on keyboards felt a bit ugly
| and out of place.
|
| Absurdly out of place when using different OS.
| input_sh wrote:
| On top of that it's just big. If you have a keyboard with
| backlight shining through the letters, Win button is gonna be
| _by far_ the brightest due to its design.
| joombaga wrote:
| Or the dimmest if you have letters that block the
| backlight.
| mitchdoogle wrote:
| It's just a symbol, like the square loop symbol. I'm sure you
| can find a use for the key. And I'm sure you can understand
| historical reasons that the key is there. I imagine if you
| dig into the reasons behind some other keys you'll find that
| a single company was behind some of them. And what would be
| the difference other than the symbol used?
| ema wrote:
| I use it as the modifier key for my window manager shortcuts
| so I just think of it as the lowercase w windows key and not
| the uppercase W Windows key and it's fine.
| lstodd wrote:
| One of the most common uses for 'left-win' is switching
| keyboard layouts. Right-win and the silly context menu
| button are mostly unused.
| dijit wrote:
| it's very clearly an operating system logo though, it's
| like if you had the Pepsi logo on your water dispenser on
| your fridge. Would look weird and out of place.
|
| EDIT: I'm being downvoted and I'm note sure why, perhaps a
| lot of the newer folks aren't aware of what it used to look
| like; it was very clearly "Windows the operating system":
| https://i.redd.it/fnligi5oa0h51.jpg
| Steltek wrote:
| Windows keyboards are designed around the Windows OS so
| they feature that logo? I have an Ethernet adapter with
| an Apple logo on it but it's plugged into a Dell running
| Linux. Is that absurdly out of place? I just don't
| understand this thread at all.
| dijit wrote:
| By "windows keyboards" you likely mean the very common
| IBM PC Keyboard layout which was expanded many times,
| most famously in 1994 with the addition of 2 keys:
| Windows and Menu
|
| I do wonder why my laptop which I bought with Linux pre-
| installed has another vendors operating system logo as a
| standard key on an otherwise vendor neutral keyboard.
|
| I wonder why IBM, who created many keys that I commonly
| use on my keyboard does not have their logo anywhere.
|
| The "fridge" analogy was because the universal sign for
| "liquid" is not "Pepsi".
|
| But imagine that the keyboard had other vendor logos, the
| "B" is the Broadcom logo, because frankly it's almost
| assured that there is Broadcom tech in there. Intel puts
| an "intel inside" logo for turning on numlock since
| they're the owners of the patent.
|
| Just feels surreal, silly, and very out of place.
|
| Unless of course you say "all non-Apple personal
| computers are exclusively _Windows_ PCs " which feels a
| bit grotesque to cede control in such a way. Even when
| Intel was extremely dominant in CPU manufacture did we
| allow them to put their logo into standards in this way.
| (thunderbolt, USB et al.)
|
| You'll say "ah, but they invented a new key and it was
| useful so we kept it" except;
|
| 1) no: while they popularised a "Windows Natural
| Keyboard" layout with this key in 1994, Super and Meta
| keys predate them by about 10 and 20 years respectively;
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Super_key_(keyboard_button)
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meta_key
|
| 2) creating something useful doesn't grant you license to
| advertise with it forever, even if it _had_ been
| original.
| Steltek wrote:
| > By "windows keyboards" you likely mean the very common
| IBM PC Keyboard layout.
|
| The Windows keyboard is a 27+ year old design made for
| Windows PCs. "IBM PC" is like talking about Greek
| antiquity and has no relevance.
|
| Your Linux laptop came with a Winkey because the
| manufacturer was lazy. Maybe tell them to try harder?
|
| > Unless of course you say "all non-Apple personal
| computers are exclusively Windows PCs" which feels a bit
| grotesque to cede control in such a way.
|
| Windows sits at 87% market share. This is "I use Bing to
| Google things" levels of silliness.
|
| I say this as an exclusive Linux user of 20+ years, btw.
| dijit wrote:
| > Windows sits at 87% market share.
|
| Only in 1 Market Segment; and in 1994 they didn't even
| have that.
|
| So what's your point exactly?
| mitchdoogle wrote:
| Your fridge almost certainly has some logos on it
| thesuitonym wrote:
| The current Windows logo is just four squares, that's
| hardly an obvious logo. It's not even that different from
| the looped square, or the meta diamond.
| f1shy wrote:
| I hate when people downvote without saying why... maybe
| because there is no reason except: "I do not like your
| opinion, I have no better one, but I do not like yours"
|
| This is yet another example. I see no wrong in this
| comment. I would like that HN changes something about it.
| electroly wrote:
| You (not OP) are being downvoted because your post has no
| content other than complaining about post votes, and
| that's in the HN guidelines as something not to do.
|
| > Please don't comment about the voting on comments. It
| never does any good, and it makes boring reading.
|
| OP's comment hasn't been meaningfully downvoted; it's
| still black text. Yours has, though.
| aliqot wrote:
| I wish we didnt have a super button and just stuck to CTRL ALT
| SHIFT. Also Menu key is the most worthless key ever aside from
| SysRq.
| fomine3 wrote:
| Empty space on 101 keyboard looks weird in retrospect. It's
| natural to have a key there.
| mgaunard wrote:
| how do you obtain a context menu without the menu key?
|
| are you one of those weirdos who use a mouse?
| [deleted]
| nyanpasu64 wrote:
| Shift+F10 works on Windows and Linux GTK (not Qt) apps, but
| it's not self-documenting unlike the menu key.
|
| Also bring back keyboards with external media keys that
| don't require holding Fn to either change volume and
| tracks, or press F# key shortcuts. Also please give me an
| EC firmware which maps top-row keys to media keys when
| pressed alone (for convenience), and to F# keys when either
| Fn or any other modifier keys are held (so you don't need
| to add an extra key to complex modifier chords relative to
| on desktops).
| rhymeshot wrote:
| On Windows it's Shift+F10
| sph wrote:
| Super is fine, the convention is wrong.
|
| I like Apple using Alt/Option/Meta as "alternative option"
|
| I don't like Apple applications using Super/Windows/Looped
| Square for their own shortcuts.
|
| On my Linux workstation I standardise to:
|
| - Super for all window operations. Quit, resize, move to
| workspace.
|
| - Super+alt for system wide action: lock, suspend, reboot.
|
| - Hyper (super+ctrl+alt+shift because it's easily accessible
| on my keyboard) for global shortcuts such as mute microphone.
|
| And Ctrl and Alt are reserved for applications themselves. I
| like Emacs approach: Ctrl is (mostly) the first layer, and
| Alt/Meta tends to work on semantic blocks: words, lines,
| sentences, etc. Shift often means Option, i.e. alternative to
| the base shortcut.
| kergonath wrote:
| > I don't like Apple applications using
| Super/Windows/Looped Square for their own shortcuts.
|
| I strongly disagree. The distinction between OS and
| applications is arbitrary, it does not make sense to
| separate along this line. And a consistent command key is
| great, particularly compared to the mess we have on
| Windows. The fact that this leaves control free for
| command-line applications is a great bonus as well.
| wruza wrote:
| On the contrary, I like Apple's Cmd for its location. It
| sits right under a thumb, and is less awkward to reach to
| than to Ctrl with a pinky. I liked it so much on Mac that I
| added Alt-W and similar Alt-variants of Ctrl-shortcuts to
| my PC browser and Vim. I also tried to switch Ctrl and Alt
| at a system level, but it didn't feel right.
| sph wrote:
| Thumb are definitely underutilised. I just received my
| Moonlander split keyboard and I love having 3 keys per
| thumb now (actually even more than that)
| aliqot wrote:
| ergo ez here, it's great :D no super key.
| Steltek wrote:
| Cmd is the only thing that works well on a Macbook
| keyboard and everything else is a travesty. `fn` should
| be banished from the left side entirely and letting it
| occupy the Fitz Law ideal of the corner is a goddamn
| atrocity against good design for how little use it gets.
|
| Complex chords are extremely painful when done one handed
| because the other meta keys are tiny and crammed all
| together. On Windows keyboards, `fn` either doesn't exist
| or is in the middle (creating ctrl-fn-win-alt), making
| for tons of comfortable space for one-handed chorded
| keys.
| wruza wrote:
| Honestly if I given a chance to redesign keyboards, I'd
| leave these corners completely empty and put cmd, alt,
| ctrl and probably shift where alt-spacebar-alt group is
| on a pc keyboard. Space "bar" itself would be just a key,
| maybe 2x width. Or maybe between B N even.
|
| 6x+ is too much honor for a key that produces blanks and
| allocates 20% of fingers, also useful ones. More than
| half of my spacebar area has no wear signs if you look
| closely.
| pram wrote:
| I don't agree, having all that stuff separated from CTRL is
| great for terminals. Makes more sense for signals, I expect
| CTRL-C to be SIGINT etc.
|
| Not that I believe Apple intended this, but I think of the
| command key as meta.
| syockit wrote:
| I couldn't count the many times I've been saved by the menu
| key, when my mouse somehow stops working for no reason. I
| hate that my current keyboard relegates it to be second-class
| citizen in lieu of the Fn key taking its place (which on the
| other hand I find to be useless).
| keybored wrote:
| I use Super for window/desktop navigation and window/desktop
| functionality and I use it much more than the Alt key.
| wruza wrote:
| I map language switch to menu key on linux (also temporary
| switch to rwin key, and use scroll lock indicator (not key)
| as a language indicator). It's much more comfortable than
| regular ctrl-shift or alt-shift, and these keys are in a good
| place.
| omegabravo wrote:
| I don't find it that similar. Windows key is rarely (never?)
| used as a modifier at the application level. You'd never see it
| as a keyboard shortcut in menus likes you do with command.
|
| Windows key shortcuts are all (I think) operating system
| shortcuts. Super+R, Super+X, Super+right arrow.
|
| Command is more analogous to alt or control.
| fknorangesite wrote:
| > Windows key is rarely (never?) used as a modifier at the
| application level. You'd never see it as a keyboard shortcut
| in menus likes you do with command.
|
| Yeah that's because the Windows key was only introduced with
| Windows 95, which means a) ctrl- and alt- shortcuts were
| already convention; and b) most keyboards didn't even _have_
| a Windows key! If you were writing an application at the
| time, it would have been a gamble whether end users could
| even access your shortcuts. So of course devs stayed with
| ctrl and alt.
| nkrisc wrote:
| I have to agree with you (and Jobs) here. The Windows key is
| related to Windows functions. I think using the Windows logo
| I this instance is particularly apt. As you pointed out, the
| Command key is really a very generic key and has no
| particular affinity to Apple or the OS itself.
|
| I haven't used Windows 11 yet, but the Windows key has become
| much more associated with premier Windows features beyond
| initially the start menu. Windows+G opens the integrated
| gaming experience (if you've enabled it, I believe) and even
| Windows+tab gives you a similar, but more modern experience
| over alt+tab. Windows+v gives you an expanded clipboard view
| and I think this may be where the line begins to blur a bit,
| but it's still the improved Windows version of the paste
| command that is essentially the same across most OSes.
|
| It has its utilitarian uses such as window management with
| Windows+arrow key, but that of course is an OS level action.
| viridian wrote:
| Yeah, most typically (but not always) with cross platform
| stuff:
|
| - windows/linux win/super key = apple ctrl key, OS level
| commands
|
| - windows/linux ctrl = apple cmd key, primary application
| level commands
|
| - windows/linux alt = apple option, secondary application
| level commands
|
| - shift modifiers are almost always interoperational
| sorenjan wrote:
| PowerToys adds a bunch of new shortcuts using the Windows
| key, and ConEmu uses it for several shortcuts as well.
|
| https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/powertoys/
|
| https://conemu.github.io/en/KeyboardShortcuts.html
| N19PEDL2 wrote:
| I agree. I'd like to find a keyboard with Tux instead of the
| Windows logo for my Linux desktop.
| blackoil wrote:
| If your have mechanical keyboard you can buy a key cap. Maybe
| similar exist for laptops.
| vt240 wrote:
| You can use the Sun Type 7 USB keyboard which has a diamond
| symbol super key. Under Windows it functions as the Win key.
| Plus it has application keys on the left had side.
| NoGravitas wrote:
| In the early 2000s, I had a buckling-spring keyboard with Tux
| instead of the Windows logo.
| mro_name wrote:
| Raspberry Pies have their mascot-fruit on that key.
| wgx wrote:
| I'm old enough to remember my Mac G5 keyboard which still
| sported an Apple logo on the Command key before they did away
| with it for `cmd` instead.
|
| https://www.google.com/search?q=mac+g5+keyboard&tbm=isch
| dwighttk wrote:
| back when left command and right command occasionally had
| different functions, one had an unfilled apple and one a
| filled-in apple...
| dwighttk wrote:
| hmm... I must be misremembering... this says the filled-in
| apple was on the equivalent of the alt key
|
| https://www.macworld.com/article/224807/think-retro-open-
| app...
| Infernal wrote:
| I seem to recall that up to 2012 or so, the apple logo was
| printed alongside the looped square on the physical key. We
| used to refer to it as the "apple key" (2000s CS program
| anecdote) and I recall it taking a while to adjust to referring
| to it as the command key.
|
| EDIT: now that I follow the link I see this information is in
| the first line. Oh well!
| marssaxman wrote:
| That was a later change. The original Macintosh keyboards
| showed only the Command symbol, and we called it the "command
| key". The Apple logo did not show up until years later, when
| Apple introduced the ADB keyboards, designed to be compatible
| with both the Macintosh line and the Apple IIgs; their
| command keys showed both the cloverleaf symbol, used on the
| Macintosh, and the Apple logo, which had been the convention
| for Apple II keyboards.
| bowsamic wrote:
| I feel like Susan Kare made so many brand defining visual
| decisions, it's very impressive
| hammock wrote:
| What are some of the others?
| MBCook wrote:
| She did. And she was responsible for so much of the personality
| and personability of Macs.
|
| It's really a shame she isn't significantly better known. She
| made a huge impact on computers as we know them today.
| ianai wrote:
| I've always called it "squiggle." Time to learn "looped square."
| Rygian wrote:
| When encountering a hot upward draft, gliders fly in this pattern
| to make the most use of it.
| ars wrote:
| Why loops? Why not a simple circle?
| pbhjpbhj wrote:
| I don't know, but surely it's to have more of the flight
| times in the warm centre of the updraft. Circles would miss
| the centre region for at least half the flight. Also a looped
| square would reduce the amount of flight when you're pitched,
| reducing strain?
|
| I'd expect they might do a crossover in the middle to do
| turns to both sides (left wing down, right wing down); but
| perhaps flyers prefer one side for turns.
| Rygian wrote:
| Level-wing flight inside the thermal will get you more
| upwards push than a continuous hard bank angle.
| LeoPanthera wrote:
| OK so why not a rounded square? Or even a hexagon?
| arketyp wrote:
| As the article says it's used for cultural locations here in the
| North. I asked my family members what they associate it with and
| got a variety of answers, including Viking ornamentation, a
| citadell layout, house foundation, reminiscence of the infinity
| symbol (persistence through time). As a kid seeing it on the
| keyboard next to the Apple logo I thought it looked like a leaves
| or maybe vines. It's a funny thing the potency of such abstract
| symbols, adaptable to different contexts via multiple
| interpretations, but whose shapes are also not completely
| separated from what they represent.
| [deleted]
| olodus wrote:
| I've always thought the symbol came from its resemblance to the
| letter H for "Historical location" but the reasons you and the
| article brings up are probably more likely now that I've heard
| them.
| gedy wrote:
| Apple should have built their new headquarters in this shape
| instead of circle :-)
| Svip wrote:
| In Danish, the key is sometimes jokingly referred to as
| >>sevaerdighedstasten<<. >>Sevaerdighed<< being a location of
| interest (and >>tasten<< key).
| henryackerman wrote:
| I just love how close the word sevaerdighed is to the dutch
| word: bezienswaardigheid.
| kreddor wrote:
| Interesting. I've heard people refer to it as "museumstasten"
| (key of museums). Probably a regional thing.
| bouvin wrote:
| At least at the Department of Computer Science, Aarhus
| University, it was/is colloquially known as 'moesgaard' [1]
|
| [1] https://www.moesgaardmuseum.dk/en/
| dijit wrote:
| It looks almost exactly like dark-ages castle layouts, with 4
| bastion towers to cover the corners. Example of Malmo
| fortification from 1700: https://malmo.se/Uppleva-och-
| gora/Arkitektur-och-kulturarv/M...
|
| You can see the Castle and its surrounding moat to the west.
| sleepychu wrote:
| That is "the butterfly key" in my house :-)
| lokimedes wrote:
| I'm moderately* proud as a Scandinavian, that both this symbol as
| well as the (Harald-)Bluetooth rune have become part of the
| global IT symbology. Also that Apple kept the "Siri" name for the
| voice system they bought.
|
| * (I'm not normally proud of things I didn't contribute to)
| eole666 wrote:
| This is the only thing I like about Apple keyboards. For
| programming, their layout is so different than standard
| keyboards, it's horrifying (I'm talking about the AZERTY ones,
| don't really know about the QWERTYs) : for example -_(){}[]*`!+=
| characters are on different keys.
|
| Also, are standard keyboard still recognized as apple keyboards
| if you plug them on a mac ?
| ed312 wrote:
| When you plug a new one in, you have the option to run through
| a "layout detection" process. Typically it asks you to press
| the keys directly adjacent to the "shift" keys and goes from
| there. Also, IME, there is not a "mac" keyboard on a hardware
| level - the key directly to the left of the space is alt on
| Windows or Command on OSX.
| Macha wrote:
| This process often gets it wrong in my experience
| MBCook wrote:
| Yep. If you plug a standard keyboard in it works almost
| perfectly.
|
| The only oddity is the Option and Command keys are swapped.
| They map to Alt and Windows, but should be Windows and Alt.
|
| Trivial to fix it in the keyboard Pref Pane. Otherwise you're
| 100% golden.
| luxuryballs wrote:
| Henceforth I will never not see the castle and the little towers,
| very cool.
| fn1 wrote:
| [?] Key is often equivalent to ctrl on windows. Ctrl-C,-V,-X
| copy'n'paste actions are done with that key on Mac.
|
| I think it's much better placed since you can reach it with your
| thumb and don't have to rotate your wrist when using it as
| opposed to ctrl, so when typing macs you might have less strain
| on your hands.
| dontlaugh wrote:
| For that reason, I swap left Ctrl with left Alt on Windows
| machines.
| sbf501 wrote:
| Unless you have tiny monkeypaws for hands, [?]-V is a painful
| gesture and doesn't make sense on any human hand. This is one
| of apple's major human interface messups. And I'll die on that
| hill.
|
| Ctrl on the far left of the keyboard (where FN is on apple
| keyboards) is far more ergonomically laid out, doesn't require
| a radical twist of the fingers, and also allows your fingers to
| remain in home-row with thumb on space.
|
| Personally I think ALL modifier keys should be on the far
| left/right of a keyboard where they can all be accessed by a
| pinky finger. It is faster, doesn't require bone crossing, and
| allows you to remain in a typing position. Combinations of
| multiple modifiers should be very rare, if it isn't someone
| needs to go back to UI/UX school. (I blame Emacs for that!)
| rcoveson wrote:
| I'm confused by this subthread. Are people hitting the
| Spacebar-adjacent modifier key with their index finger? It's
| meant to be hit with the thumb, and it's far more ergonomic
| than the pinky holding the bottom-left modifier key. [?]-A
| should be nothing but an easy thumb contraction.
|
| I use the usual Caps Lock position as my "Control" key, which
| is faster and more ergonomic than any of the traditional
| modifier positions, but the second place is easily the
| Spacebar-adjacent modifier key (I use it as my Super key, for
| window manager controls like workspace switching and
| application launcher). I have Alt bound to the bottom-left
| position where Control usually is. Alt doesn't get used
| nearly as much, and that's the third-best spot. The spot in
| between the two bottom-row modifiers is the least accessible
| by far (hard to hit accurately with the pinky, out of reach
| of the thumb). 101-key keyboards don't have it at all. I've
| recently started using it as push-to-talk, which works fine
| since it's not used for anything else and you don't have to
| chord it with anything.
| whoooooo123 wrote:
| > Unless you have tiny monkeypaws for hands, [?]-V is a
| painful gesture and doesn't make sense on any human hand.
|
| I don't find this true at all, and as far as I can tell I
| have normal-sized hands.
|
| How do you rest your fingers on the keyboard? When I have my
| eight fingers on the home keys, I can hit [?]-C by bending my
| index finger in isolation. To hit [?]-V, I have to rotate my
| entire left hand very slightly to the right while also
| bending my index finger. However, I've never once thought
| consciously about how to perform this action before today,
| despite having hit [?]-V millions of times - so it's never
| struck me as a difficult or uncomfortable maneuver.
| sbf501 wrote:
| > How do you rest your fingers on the keyboard?
|
| Standard home-row position. Having to scoot my thumb over
| to square-loop is very uncomfortable because it naturally
| rests on the spacebar.
|
| It might be that I've been programming for close to 40
| years and have grown accustomed to CTRL being an
| involuntary gesture for the pinky. Just like escape (from
| using vi for 30+ years).
|
| It could be that people born using loop-* are used to it,
| plus Apple pushing ctrl into a weird place on its keyboards
| just means that your never had the opportunity to
| experience the ergonomically superior CTRL-C/V from the
| "old days" of keyboards before modifier madness took over.
| TBH emacs CTRL-ALT bothered me as well, and I had similar
| debates on Usenet. :) Or you are young and flexible. :)
| twobitshifter wrote:
| Agreed, if trying to do it with one hand. If you chord with
| the alternate hand's thumb all is well. However, I would
| expect most people tend use only one half of the shift ctrl
| alt cmd/win keys. Typically with the left hand from what I've
| seen.
| bloopernova wrote:
| This is partly why I wish I could mimic the Mac's keyboard on
| my Linux desktop.
|
| I remap capslock to ctrl on my Macs for Emacs use, which also
| helps with "emacs pinky syndrome".
| VTimofeenko wrote:
| There are tools like xremap which intercept key combos and
| re-send different ones.
| nikau wrote:
| I've only ever used the control key with the side of my palm,
| so the bottom left isolated from the alt key a bit is perfect.
| daneel_w wrote:
| Agreed, Apple keyboards' placement of CMD/[?] is a better fit
| for the human hand.
| mjlee wrote:
| My favourite aspect of this is that I have ctrl-c for SIGINT
| when I'm working in terminal and cmd-c for copy. No tracking
| which terminal emulator or IDE I'm in and which keyboard
| shortcuts to use for very common actions.
| koenvdb wrote:
| I usually hold the left side of my palm down a bit in order to
| press the ctrl button. So I rarely touch the ctrl button with a
| finger.
| ilvez wrote:
| When using desktop keyboard, then Ctrl key is so easy to take
| with your palm, this small part below pinky. Doesn't work on
| laptops, but this is one of the reasons to prefer normal
| keyboards.
| throw0101a wrote:
| Looped square:
|
| * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Looped_square
| Someone wrote:
| FTA: The symbol was included in the original Macintosh font
| Chicago, and could be inserted by typing a Ctrl+Q key
| combination.
|
| That's incorrect. The original Macintosh didn't even _have_ a
| control key.
| joeframbach wrote:
| Somewhat tangential, the Command+Q shortcut to immediately,
| irrevocably, infuriatingly QUIT WHATEVER YOU HAVE OPEN is
| absolutely diabolical. Considering all day I type Command+Tab
| to switch applications, and Command+W to close browser tabs.
| There's no way to remap it to "do nothing", so you have to
| remap it to do "something else". The best I could figure out is
| make it show and hide my app bar.
| cantSpellSober wrote:
| Not Chrome, you need to _hold_ Cmd+Q to quit. I wish more
| apps adopted this pattern.
| MBCook wrote:
| And Control was never the 'make a special character' key.
| That's always been Option.
| Someone wrote:
| It was, but there were exceptions. It turns it that this
| symbol, in the Chicago font, is mapped to a control code
| (this is pre-Unicode; fonts were limited to 256 characters,
| so such creative use wasn't considered deadly sin) https://de
| veloper.apple.com/library/archive/technotes/te/te_...:
|
| _Chicago Control-Q prints propeller or clover symbol
|
| Date Written: 7/4/90
|
| Last reviewed: 6/14/93
|
| How do I get the character that represents the clover used
| for Command-key equivalents in documents and in menus?
|
| ___
|
| This key is documented in the Apple Style Guide, which is
| available on the latest Developer CD Series disc as well as
| from APDA. One little feature of Key Caps which is not widely
| known is the Control key (not the Command or Option keys).
| Pressing the Control key in Chicago shows that Control-Q in
| Chicago maps to the propeller symbol for which you search.
| Control-Q generates the character code 17; the standard
| Macintosh character set (see Inside Macintosh Volume VI, page
| 12-5) specifies this symbol for it._
| dancemethis wrote:
| The BH Shopping emoji.
| jakuboboza wrote:
| I liked it most when it was just Apple :)
| bobowzki wrote:
| Fornminne!
| tekkk wrote:
| It is called "hannunvaakuna" in Finnish (or "kapalikko" it
| seems), literal translation being "Hannu's coat of arms" and it's
| an old religious symbol similar to pentagram or swastika. Used
| for protection against spirits and whatnot. Although that name
| has fallen out of common use and people just call it "komento" ->
| "command". A nice symbol though so can see why they went with it.
| thejerz wrote:
| Growing up with Mac computers at school in the 90's, teachers
| referred to [?] as the "splat" key. I'm not sure of the etymology
| or origins, but I inferred it's because the symbol resembles a
| cartoon animation splat, as might be produced from a character
| running straight into glass wall and getting flattened like a fly
| with a swatter.
| theandrewbailey wrote:
| I never heard anyone call a symbol or key 'splat' until taking
| database courses in college (15 years ago). Instead of saying
| 'asterisk' or 'star' all the time, they would read a SQL query
| like 'select splat from _table_... '
|
| I'm pretty sure that it was another class at the same time
| where I picked up 'bang' for 'exclamation point'. Looking back,
| I'm surprised that both had eluded me for so long.
| jmt_ wrote:
| I've never heard it used like that but actually makes a lot
| of sense if thinking of an asterisk as the glob wildcard.
| Plus it sounds much better when spoken aloud in the context
| compared to asterisk or star
| michaelcampbell wrote:
| Interesting; in the unix culture splat is often `*`. I'd never
| heard it used for anything else.
| whoooooo123 wrote:
| The unary `*` in Ruby is usually called the "splat operator".
| michaelcampbell wrote:
| Yes, true, and I have heard that. Python, too, now that I
| think about it, but what I meant (unclearly) is I've never
| heard "splat" used for anything but (star); regardless of
| what the (star) represented.
| scelerat wrote:
| I remember hearing splat as well, in the early '90s among So-
| Cal BBS nerds. Would be interesting to learn where this usage
| began.
| peppertree wrote:
| My 3 yo pointed at the key and said "drone".
| Steltek wrote:
| This made me deeply envious of how kids perceive the world
| with fresh eyes. I especially love how it's absurdly obvious
| once pointed out.
| Jowsey wrote:
| First thing I thought of too lol
| bdhcuidbebe wrote:
| The looped square is famously snagged off swedish road signs
| showing cultural heritage.
| octocop wrote:
| I've been calling in the bun('bulle' in Swedish)
| daneel_w wrote:
| @ is the "bulle", because it looks like a "kanelbulle"
| (cinnamon roll).
| zegl wrote:
| I'm calling it "kringla" ("pretzel")!
| daneel_w wrote:
| When I was a kid in the 90s it was & (ampersand) that was
| called "kringla", because it looks almost exactly like a
| pretzel.
| Pinus wrote:
| Doesn't that get confusing with the "@" sign often being called
| "kanelbulle" (cinnamon bun,
| https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Kanelbulle.jpg for the
| non-Swedes :-) )
| zeristor wrote:
| I believe @ is called the snail in Danish. Snegle.
|
| Actually is snail another word from Danish that English
| adopted?
|
| Update: not even close, not on your Nellie even.
|
| "In Danish, it is snabel-a ('elephant's trunk A')."
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/At_sign
|
| Apologies I seem to find rabbit holes within rabbit holes,
| Not on your Nellie being Cockney rhyming slang, just tied
| into Nellie the Elephant:
|
| https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=not%20on%20y.
| ..
| martopix wrote:
| It's also called snail (chiocciola) in Italian.
| Tijdreiziger wrote:
| In Dutch it's called a monkey's tail (apenstaartje),
| though nowadays most people refer to it using the English
| 'at'.
| daneel_w wrote:
| Snabel-a is also very common in Sweden. It's the "correct"
| colloquialism here, with the exception for children and
| teenagers who say "bulle/kanelbulle".
| lordnacho wrote:
| > Actually is snail another word from Danish that English
| adopted?
|
| Likely due to common roots rather than transplant. You'll
| find a similar word in the other Germanic languages.
|
| Snabel-a in Danish is correct, you'll hear it all the time
| when there's an email address.
| [deleted]
| progre wrote:
| Oh, looking forward to the national bun day on Tuesday!
| jackjeff wrote:
| Or
|
| I like the [?] glyph but outside the United States, keyboards
| don't have the "command" name on the key. I find it hard to
| describe to my parents when doing support over the phone.
|
| It was much easier when this key also featured the outline of the
| Apple logo , I could describe it as the key with the Apple on it
| next to the space bar.
|
| I envy my Northern European neighbors that actually have name for
| the [?] symbol, or in Northern America where you can simply say
| the "command" key because that's written on it.
| rad_gruchalski wrote:
| > I like the [?] glyph but outside the United States, keyboards
| don't have the "command" name on the key.
|
| All my German keyboards have it.
| gpgn wrote:
| Italian keyboards as well.
| metafunctor wrote:
| At least the recent Finnish/Swedish keyboards do have both [?]
| and "command" written on the key.
|
| Likewise with [?] (option) and ^ (control).
| bobthedino wrote:
| In the UK, Mac keyboards generally seem to have "command"
| written on the key in addition to "[?]".
| [deleted]
| alexdbird wrote:
| From memory, more recent non-US keyboards do have "command" as
| well as the symbol, and recent US keyboards have added the
| symbol, so we have eventually reached consistency.
| luxuryballs wrote:
| after reading this article I'm going to be calling it the tiny
| castle key
| DonHopkins wrote:
| Bastion Fort Key!
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bastion_fort
| xtiansimon wrote:
| I was told to call it "splat" (so long ago I could not
| attribute the source). Or maybe thats just a Bay Area thing?
| mzs wrote:
| I call it propellor but someone told me to call it splat in
| Chicago.
| mrweasel wrote:
| On my laptop, with a Danish keyboard, it says "command" right
| below the [?] sign. Weirdly enough the larger USB keyboard it
| just says "cmd" on the left of the key and have [?] right
| aligned.
| Cockbrand wrote:
| I still call it the "Apple" key, as this is how I learned it.
| And I somehow find it nicer than calling it the "command" key.
| mcphage wrote:
| I learned it as the "Open Apple" key, and I used that for
| many years, until people stopped having any idea what I was
| talking about. And it's way too many syllables. I had to
| retrain myself to call it "command".
| rmilk wrote:
| I refer to it as cloverleaf when I'm doing phone support
| for family and friends. Seems to convey the idea to them
| pretty clearly.
| MBCook wrote:
| Same. Force quit will always be Open Apple-Option-Escape in
| my mind be my LC II still had the old markings in addition
| to the new.
| LtWorf wrote:
| But if you are trying to tell what to press to someone over
| the phone, they won't find the apple key.
| Cockbrand wrote:
| This is most true, I always have to correct myself when I
| try to show keyboard shortcuts to my colleagues.
| teddyh wrote:
| The "" (F8FF) unicode code point is in the "private use"
| section of Unicode, and therefore could depict anything,
| depending on the font. The closest thing to a standard is the
| Under-ConScript Unicode Registry1, which reserves F8D0-F8FF to
| Klingon, where the F8FF character is the KLINGON MUMMIFICATION
| GLYPH:
|
| https://www.kreativekorp.com/ucsur/charts/PDF/UF8D0.pdf
|
| I honestly cannot fathom why HN filters most weird Unicode
| characters but allows private use code points.
|
| 1. https://www.kreativekorp.com/ucsur/
| nikolahristov wrote:
| It's a circle
| afrnz wrote:
| I fondly remember a former colleague calling it the "propeller"
| key which made me laugh and stuck with me. I now continue myself
| calling it like that!
| JKCalhoun wrote:
| If not "the command key", I typically hear it called "the clover
| leaf".
|
| In a way I can't put into words, I've always liked that key on
| the Macintosh.
| yborg wrote:
| It was a uniquely Mac thing when it came out, unless you lived
| in Scandinavia you probably had never seen it. It's also a
| pleasing shape in general I think, because of the symmetry.
| wodenokoto wrote:
| The title is from another wikipedia article,
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Looped_square
|
| The linked to article is about Apple's use of that symbol for the
| "command"-key on their keyboards.
| cratermoon wrote:
| I call it "propeller"
| elitan wrote:
| I've never heard someone referring to this key as Fornminne in
| Swedish.
| coryfklein wrote:
| If you follow the text deep enough in Wikipedia, you see that the
| symbol may find its origination in the architecture of Sweden's
| Borgholm Castle, which from above is shaped just like [?] . You
| can see this here[0] in Google Maps satellite view.
|
| [0]
| https://www.google.com/maps/place/Borgholm+Castle/@56.870441...
| LeoPanthera wrote:
| aka "The Swedish Campground"
|
| https://www.folklore.org/StoryView.py?project=Macintosh&stor...
| petercooper wrote:
| Yeah, I was surprised to not see that mentioned more. I've
| always called it that since reading that post back in the day
| :-D
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