[HN Gopher] Software engineering changed my life
       ___________________________________________________________________
        
       Software engineering changed my life
        
       Author : koinedad
       Score  : 71 points
       Date   : 2022-09-24 16:32 UTC (6 hours ago)
        
 (HTM) web link (technicallychallenged.substack.com)
 (TXT) w3m dump (technicallychallenged.substack.com)
        
       | dccoolgai wrote:
       | I'm really happy to see this and that this field has a positive
       | effect on people's life. That's really the top line takeaway for
       | me: But as someone who's been through more than one of these
       | "market cycles" in tech, I have a fear (based in
       | reality/experience) that when people start viewing Software
       | Engineering as a gateway to a "good life" it usually means we're
       | at an inflection point where things (at least in the U.S.) are
       | about to get a lot worse.
       | 
       | We're already seeing this with FAANG layoffs. I'd like to believe
       | "it's different this time" but I don't have anything I can point
       | to as a logical basis for that belief. And it really scares me.
        
         | 29athrowaway wrote:
         | Remote work means that now you are competing with people from
         | all around the world, some of them living in places with very
         | permissive labor laws, which means that wages around where you
         | live will go down.
        
           | jimbokun wrote:
           | Same arguments in the late 90s and early 2000s.
           | 
           | After which software salaries continued to rise dramatically.
        
             | frontman1988 wrote:
             | Indians have already taken a lot of tech jobs.
             | Amazon,Microsoft,Adobe, Atlassain, Salesforce,Goldman
             | Sachs, Google all have dev centers in India. And not to
             | forget people of Indian descent are literally everywhere
             | there is tech.
        
           | ravenstine wrote:
           | We'll see. The idea that Indians will replace us all has yet
           | to pan out. But the increasing prevalence of remote may be
           | the tipping point.
        
             | miscaccount wrote:
             | Right now there is shortage of qualified software engineers
             | in India and many companies are finding it harder to hire
             | in India.
             | 
             | Also the cost in India is also increasing and running your
             | operations remote is not simple.
        
               | samarthr1 wrote:
               | And we have hopes of greater growth in domestic demand...
               | 
               | I dream of the day when the student in cs for the money
               | will reject the faangs of today during poor races, and
               | instead join a home grown startup.
        
             | 29athrowaway wrote:
             | Decades ago when offshoring started, the best available
             | technology were crappy VoIP phones and expensive
             | videoconference technology.
             | 
             | Now any low tier laptop with zoom will give you a proper
             | videoconferencing experience, infrastructure is all cloud
             | based, there are 10x more fiber cables connecting the
             | planet, there are lots of well documented open source
             | projects for almost everything, and for learning there is
             | youtube and MOOCs.
             | 
             | Also, foreign schools are getting better, and many alumni
             | of offshored companies are now founders. The silicon valley
             | model of financing is being replicated abroad too.
             | 
             | Believe me when I tell you: the castle walls are falling
             | apart and soon wages will go down.
             | 
             | People that got comfortable writing average CRUD
             | applications are about to be stomped by a massive stampede.
        
           | GoOnThenDoTell wrote:
           | Timezones really matter more than location. I think we'll see
           | people move to low CoL areas before mass offshoring.
           | 
           | So much organisational friction is from people who don't want
           | to destroy work/life balance with early/late meetings.
        
         | koinedad wrote:
         | Definitely. Watching the tech layoffs this year has been rough.
        
           | [deleted]
        
         | jimbokun wrote:
         | Software has been a good paying career for as long as it's
         | existed.
         | 
         | There may have been occasional downturns, but less than most
         | other professions. And compensation has grown much faster than
         | most other fields.
        
         | zapataband1 wrote:
         | What are you talking about most companies just experienced
         | record-making profits!!! Are we not getting raises?!?! /sarcasm
         | 
         | I've see things getting worse for a lot of people for a while.
         | I think we just like to pretend it's all good in white-collar
         | land because of the heavy stigma of being poor. We need to
         | unionize. Many 'poorer' and 'less-skilled' workers have already
         | realized this(e.g. nurses strike, teachers strike and recent
         | vote by railroad union to strike).
         | 
         | "The top 1% owned a record 32.3% of the nation's wealth as of
         | the end of 2021, data show. The share of wealth held by the
         | bottom 90% of Americans, likewise, has declined slightly since
         | before the pandemic, from 30.5% to 30.2%.Apr 1, 2022"
        
         | tracerbulletx wrote:
         | There might be a downcycle but I don't see how it couldn't be
         | very different than any previous cycle. The depth to which
         | software has penetrated business processes seems much more deep
         | than even 20 years ago.
        
           | dccoolgai wrote:
           | You can't eat software. You can't wear it or build a house
           | with it. You could maybe make any of those things "more
           | efficient" but you can't _replace_ them with software. So
           | there's some "theoretical limit" to the value you can create
           | with it. My fear is that we have overshot that line by a wide
           | margin, and the market is getting wise to it.
        
             | tracerbulletx wrote:
             | Well I mean if society collapses it won't be worth much,
             | but as long as that doesn't happen making things "more
             | efficient" is critical to supporting a planet with 8
             | billion people.
        
             | dasil003 wrote:
             | Sure software is not generally essential. But on the other
             | hand, do we really need more stuff?
        
             | chrisco255 wrote:
             | You can't eat any kind of service. There's not really a
             | theoretical limit to the value that can be created with
             | software. You could even create software that powers
             | robotics & machinery which generates food
             | (https://www.deere.co.uk/en/agriculture/future-of-farming/)
             | or housing (https://www.iconbuild.com/).
        
               | dccoolgai wrote:
               | That's exactly my point, though: software doesn't really
               | "power" any if those things. They are powered by
               | solar/gas/etc. And the robotics that do the actual
               | agriculture tasks are created in a factory. The value
               | software brings has a hard upper bound related to those
               | things.
        
               | chrisco255 wrote:
               | They are created in a factory that itself is powered by
               | automation and robotics, that enables teams of hundreds
               | to do the work that would formerly take tens of
               | thousands.
               | 
               | As far as energy goes, software also helps to optimize
               | oil exploration, and software is clearly involved in
               | optimizing solar efficiency and production of solar
               | cells. It's also involved in nuclear facilities, power
               | distribution networks, charging stations, grid management
               | systems, etc.
               | 
               | The limits of software haven't even begun to be tapped
               | yet.
        
             | jimbokun wrote:
             | Software was played a role in automating all those things,
             | and will continue to do so.
        
             | nelsondev wrote:
             | You can listen to it (music), you can look at it (art), you
             | can entertain people with it (video games), you can inform
             | others with it (media).
             | 
             | These aren't the base level on Maslow's pyramid of needs
             | (food water shelter), but software can solve/facilitate the
             | solving of higher level problems of human existence.
        
       | Nextgrid wrote:
       | The biggest perk of software engineering is that you can
       | literally create something from nothing, and that something can
       | have enough value for someone to pay you. The barrier to entry is
       | basically zero, assuming you already own a computer (and if you
       | don't, you'll need that computer for other things anyway, so it
       | won't be a waste even if you do not end up pursuing software
       | engineering as a career).
       | 
       | Beyond software engineering _jobs_ , having those skills means
       | you can easily build all kinds of services and put them out there
       | for prospective customers to buy. You can also automate your own
       | repetitive, annoying and boring shit instead of spending time
       | doing it manually or paying someone else (or a service) to do so.
       | 
       | Besides making software products, software engineering expertise
       | will also help you make other jobs more efficient, sometimes
       | automating them away. If shit hits the fan and developers are no
       | longer in demand and selling software products/services doesn't
       | work out, you can just look for any kind of computer-based,
       | repetitive job such as data entry and automate it away.
        
         | j-bos wrote:
         | Strongly agree with something from nothing. As a former
         | carpenter I spent quite a bit of effort lugging tools around
         | and on moves, today I just grab a laptop.
        
           | Nextgrid wrote:
           | While carpentry also creates value, a carpenter needs
           | significant equipment & capital to create something. A
           | carpenter down on their luck can't immediately start building
           | houses from scratch. A programmer down on their luck just
           | needs a laptop (which is easy enough to get) and can start
           | churning out MVPs that could at least provide _some_ income.
        
         | koinedad wrote:
         | The idea of creating something from nothing is what got me into
         | programming. Somewhat related to the idea that I can make a
         | computer do what I want, presupposing I know what kind of
         | limitless potential "telling a computer what to do" opens up
        
           | thundergolfer wrote:
           | 'Building sandcastles in the clouds' is a nice Fred Brooks
           | aphorism that conveys this. Pure thought-stuff.
        
       | spaniard89277 wrote:
       | It's sad to see that fewer and fewer jobs provide enough to have
       | a good life.
       | 
       | If I have to point my finger to something it would be
       | housing/land. Housing throghout the west is the instrument that
       | extracts the most from poor and modal income brackets.
       | 
       | Software development is above this misery line for now.
       | 
       | If we want to live in places where all the employees that support
       | your lifestyle can find meaning and means to a decent life, we
       | have to take care about this.
       | 
       | I remember when I was in my small northern Spain faculty,
       | learning about the beginnings of industrialization and urban
       | planning, it was pretty clear to me that there was a sentiment in
       | the ruling class that, for them to have a decent place to live
       | and not being forced to live inside their palaces and houses,
       | social stability was needed. And such goal could only be achieved
       | providing amenities for the common man.
       | 
       | It was for the best interest of the ruling class.
       | 
       | Nowadays it seems to me that one can move up the payscale and
       | forget about it. But I don't want crime in my neighborhood, nor
       | homeless. I don't want to hear that someone I know lost his job
       | and it's on the verge of hitting the street.
       | 
       | A cashier should be able to pay rent, transport, utilities and a
       | decent life.
        
         | UglyToad wrote:
         | Unsolicited book recommendation but I saw someone mention
         | "Rethinking the economics of land and housing" recently which
         | serves as a good general primer of the history of and problems
         | with housing. Mainly UK focused but I think it's increasingly
         | the cause of immiseration globally.
        
         | [deleted]
        
         | jimbokun wrote:
         | In the US I believe healthcare and education far outstrip
         | housing as increasingly unaffordable costs.
        
         | zapataband1 wrote:
         | I so heavily agree. 'above this misery line for now' is the
         | key. I came from a poor background like OP. I have friends that
         | can't afford homes, constantly getting laid off, and not many
         | members of my family have any retirement plans. And this is in
         | 'the worlds richest country'
         | 
         | We can all pretend we will earn enough money for our families
         | to survive, but the reality is those richer than us will try
         | and find away to extract it somewhere down the line. Whether
         | it's inflation, medical bills, or a financial crash that brings
         | your life savings down to zero.
         | 
         | Without large-scale changes to society the hyper-concentration
         | of wealth will continue and millions will continue to live
         | butchered lives.
        
           | spaniard89277 wrote:
           | The thing about housing is that it happens everywhere in the
           | west (I presume other places too, IDK).
           | 
           | In Spain at least, it wasn't always the case that people with
           | low skilled jobs couldn't afford basic stuff. My old brothern
           | could afford an appartment and going out every weekend
           | working in a pizza place when he was in his teens.
        
         | kqr2 wrote:
         | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noblesse_oblige
         | 
         | Housing in the West due to insufficient development is
         | effectively a zero-sum game. So once people have their share,
         | they do everything they can to maintain it's value.
         | 
         | Great HN comment on a recent thread with regards to land and
         | rent-seeking: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32961554
        
           | kitsunesoba wrote:
           | Housing and land as a store of value needs to be done away
           | with.
           | 
           | While Japan don't get everything right, I think this is one
           | area in which their attitudes/policies are more aligned with
           | the wellbeing of the masses. There, houses are more like cars
           | in that they start deprecating the moment they're moved into
           | and if anything are seen as a value subtract past a certain
           | age, because it's expected that when you buy a plot of land
           | the house on it will be demolished and a new one will be
           | built in its place. Houses are more tied to families that
           | live in them than they are the land they're built on.
           | 
           | This might seem wasteful, but it's kept living costs in the
           | residential outskirts of Japan's urban areas a lot more
           | affordable than they would've been otherwise and also means
           | that housing on average is more up to code, and it drives
           | costs of building down since building is routine instead of
           | something unusual.
           | 
           | I would love to see this come to the US, and I say this
           | despite standing to gain from the present system.
        
           | folkhack wrote:
           | Shelter as an investment vehicle leads to consolidation. And,
           | no one in the capital class is going to address the scarcity
           | as it's a conflict of their interests. Rent in my city has
           | been going insane.
           | 
           | At the end of the day this is all just capitalism and voting
           | for your own interests. We optimize for this.
        
         | isthisthingon99 wrote:
         | I don't foresee software developers being useless, but I can
         | tell you what I have seen... The big, smart companies are able
         | to leverage highly paid developers better than ever. For
         | example, about 10 years ago, I was working at a company that
         | had 100 devs. They now have 10 highly paid (FAANG+) full time
         | devs + subcontractors and make more money than ever.
        
         | amelius wrote:
         | > Software development is above this misery line for now.
         | 
         | Yeah, the dream may be over when Asia gets a high quality
         | development machine in every home.
        
           | wiseowise wrote:
           | Why would availability of high quality development machine of
           | someone in China change anything for me, software engineer
           | who works on-site, in Europe?
        
           | Nextgrid wrote:
           | Is access to hardware actually the blocker?
           | 
           | My observation is that skill, communication and cultural
           | alignment are what puts the West ahead of common outsourcing
           | destinations (at least for Western projects - I would
           | definitely pick a local developer for a local project as
           | their cultural alignment and domain knowledge would be much
           | better than an outsiders').
           | 
           | The problem I see is that access to hardware and educational
           | resources is not enough. I don't believe software engineering
           | as a whole can be taught, there are some things (including
           | unwritten things nobody wants to admit) you only pick up from
           | real-world experience, and some things that have less to do
           | with software and more with culture and the local environment
           | your software will be used in (since software in most cases
           | is there to solve some kind of business problem that might be
           | specific to a certain location or jurisdiction).
           | 
           | Lack of real-world experience _in the target environment_ is
           | what 's holding the common outsourcing destinations back.
           | Giving free computers to everyone still won't magically make
           | them competitive in our software engineering market.
        
             | amelius wrote:
             | Availability of better hardware in every home (from a young
             | age) will improve all those things.
        
               | Nextgrid wrote:
               | The other problem of "better hardware" is that "better"
               | according to us isn't the same as according to the
               | market.
               | 
               | General-purpose computing devices are less and less
               | popular and I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of
               | developing countries have better _smartphone_ penetration
               | than _computers_ , partly because smartphones offer
               | better opportunities for rent-seeking and the attention
               | economy where as general-purpose computers hamper those
               | things, so the former are being pushed more and
               | potentially subsidized.
               | 
               | This is even a problem in Western countries - a lot of
               | kids/teenagers today feel at home on a phone yet don't
               | even understand the concept of a file.
               | 
               | A lot of people got into software engineering by learning
               | it themselves because they had access to a general-
               | purpose computer, since back in the day it was the only
               | computer you could get. Nowadays, a lot of families might
               | be satisfied with a phone, tablet and games console -
               | those offer zero opportunities for learning programming.
        
               | cercatrova wrote:
               | > a lot of developing countries have better smartphone
               | penetration than computers,
               | 
               | They definitely do, such as in many African and Asian
               | countries, although not for the reasons you state. Phones
               | are simply cheaper in these countries than computers.
               | They're getting devices for 200 dollars from Chinese
               | manufacturers mainly, not the 1k iPhones that are popular
               | in the West.
        
             | zapataband1 wrote:
             | Based on this data I found, it is an insanely large gap. US
             | ~7/10 people have computers, in some parts of africa
             | ~1/1000
             | 
             | https://www.nationmaster.com/country-
             | info/stats/Media/Person...
        
               | Nextgrid wrote:
               | But what about places like India? Computer penetration
               | must be pretty good for there to be a sizeable software
               | engineering and outsourcing market.
               | 
               | The problem is the skills and communication, which stem
               | from this situation being the status-quo and there being
               | nowhere for new developers to learn anything better (or
               | even know that their current skills aren't up to scratch,
               | at least not for working on foreign, outsourced
               | projects).
        
               | bipop5000 wrote:
               | You are underestimating the ratio of the country's poor
               | vs the number of people in technology. India has an
               | insane amount of people who are way poorer than what we
               | in the west would call poverty.
        
               | bipop5000 wrote:
               | There are way too many people without personal computers
               | in India.
        
               | Nextgrid wrote:
               | Yes, but I'm not talking about those. I'm refuting the
               | point that better access to computers in cheaper
               | countries will put Western developers out of jobs by
               | saying that those who already have computers still aren't
               | taking our jobs (if anything, they create jobs as we then
               | have to fix or rebuild the mess they created).
        
               | frontman1988 wrote:
               | Computer penetration in India is very less given even the
               | upper middle class kids only get a personal laptop when
               | they enter university. But this is slowly changing. You
               | can expect India to dominate in IT in the coming decades.
               | Afterall there's a reason Indian Americans are already
               | the richest group of people in the richest country of the
               | world. It's very difficult to stop hardworking people in
               | the long run.
        
             | euroderf wrote:
             | The developer USP might become requirements extraction -
             | language-dependent.
        
               | Nextgrid wrote:
               | _Language_ isn 't enough.
               | 
               | Let's look at a purely western example - implementing a
               | billing system for a company serving the US market. A
               | developer from the UK will assume that every bank account
               | holder can do free, easy and instant wire transfers, yet
               | in the US that's (still!) not the case and most people
               | use Zelle or Venmo or PayPal for those things instead,
               | which now significantly increases complexity (both
               | engineering and potentially regulatory).
        
         | marcosdumay wrote:
         | > a sentiment in the ruling class that, for them to have a
         | decent place to live and not being forced to live inside their
         | palaces and houses, social stability was needed.
         | 
         | Unfortunately, that sentiment was created with a large and long
         | lasting usage of violence by the people.
         | 
         | It would be much better if we get some different way to create
         | it.
        
         | immigrantheart wrote:
         | Sounds good, doesn't work. Never will. Life is cruel, brutal
         | competition. Ideal utopia like that is a fragile, forced state.
         | Violence, hardships, is like energy and complexity. Can't be
         | eliminated. It can be suppressed only to find it pops out
         | somewhere else.
         | 
         | If a cashier finds out they can make a decent living more will
         | want to be cashier and the cashiers will have less leverage,
         | less salary because they are dime a dozen. This is the reality
         | of this treacherous world.
         | 
         | First worlders offload their less desirable work to poorer 2nd
         | class immigrants, poorer countries. Like it or not, all well
         | intentioned Tesla owning, apartment owning, software engineers
         | are there because someone else in society do the dirty work for
         | them with low pay, indirectly.
        
         | folkhack wrote:
         | > A cashier should be able to pay rent, transport, utilities
         | and a decent life.
         | 
         | Unfortunately there's a huge group of people who will
         | vehemently oppose this as they don't see that job as deserving
         | of basic human dignity (rent, transport, utilities, medical).
         | Not just the ruling class, but normal every day folks poop on
         | these people...?!
         | 
         | The older I get the more I'm disgusted at how many people can
         | selectively turn off their empathy for stuff like this. In an
         | equitable society we should take care of each other... I don't
         | understand why a Wally World cashier making a base living wage
         | offends _so many people_.
        
           | ciarcode wrote:
           | It's a war among poor people, that the ruling class love to
           | maintain power.
        
           | bolt7469 wrote:
           | Your opposition is often seeing things from a logic-based
           | economic lens. You might not have much success making an
           | emotional argument.
           | 
           | I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you but you need to
           | logically argue why "rent, transport, utilities, medical" are
           | "basic human dignity" and what a "base living wage" is. The
           | fact that you believe everyone should have housing,
           | transport, utilities, or adequate medical care doesn't change
           | the underlying realities of economic scarcity.
        
             | deburo wrote:
             | It is true, and I'd guess that most of those who put the
             | economy front and center in their view of society have
             | empathy, they just differ on the ways society should
             | provide to its members. While socalism focuses on existing
             | wealth and how best they can redistribute it, economic-
             | minded folks are concerned about wealth creation and how
             | not to be overburdened by bloated budgets, which is very
             | risky.
        
               | kiba wrote:
               | I don't think 'socialism' and making economically
               | efficient decision is necessarily opposed to each other.
               | 
               | I would say that our current lifestyle is both
               | inefficient and inequitable.
        
             | BlargMcLarg wrote:
             | A political figure was recently assassinated in a country
             | known to be peaceful.
             | 
             | There's your logic: at some point, people are done taking
             | the bare minimum and will sow chaos, rebel, retaliate or
             | even just lie flat and (legally) do anything to sour the
             | lives of those they deem enemies. And confronting an ever
             | increasing number of delinquents is far more expensive than
             | preventing the root cause
        
           | mwint wrote:
           | Today, it seems cashiers mostly exist to fix the self
           | checkout machine when it decides it doesn't like me anymore.
           | 
           | Perhaps we're in a transition period between the legacy
           | system - cashiers a handling one customer at a time, which is
           | not providing much value to the company - and "cashiers" who
           | are self-checkout-sitters handling 8+ customers at a time,
           | which provides much more value and could bargain for a living
           | wage.
        
             | folkhack wrote:
             | > could bargain for a living wage
             | 
             | That's called collective bargaining and the only way we'll
             | end up there is strong unions. Otherwise, I promise you -
             | most companies will not altruistically ensure their
             | employees are taken care of; exceptions exist like Costco.
             | Someone's going to need to bend their arm, be it a union or
             | the government through regulation.
             | 
             | Also I'm not sure I understand your comment. The first
             | sentence feels like you're devaluing the service employee
             | that helps resolve your self-checkout issues? Then, the
             | next paragraph you posit that we're in a transitionary
             | period from a "legacy system" - this just isn't how I see
             | it.
             | 
             | From convenience stores, to grocery, etc. there will always
             | be the need for traditional cashiers, along side of self-
             | checkout folks. And, personally - I believe they both
             | deserve a dignified wage that covers their base needs
             | (rent, car, medical, etc) without necessarily having to
             | "bargain for a living wage."
             | 
             | IMO - even the most entry-level and lowly of jobs at
             | 40hrs/week should be able to get someone by.
        
               | mwint wrote:
               | > devaluing the service employee that helps resolve your
               | self-checkout issues?
               | 
               | Certainly I don't devalue the employee, but I don't value
               | the work they do. This is mostly irritation at not being
               | allowed to just fix my own issues.
               | 
               | > there will always be the need for traditional cashiers,
               | along side of self-checkout folks.
               | 
               | Counterexample, a large convenience store near me just
               | last month tore out all (all!) of the legacy checkout
               | systems and replaced them with about five bays of 4-8x
               | self-checkouts, of different sizes. There's no option to
               | have a human check you out anymore.
               | 
               | I think it's glorious.
               | 
               | > IMO - even the most entry-level and lowly of jobs at
               | 40hrs/week should be able to get someone by.
               | 
               | I agree, but I think we're moving into a world where
               | cashiers (1-to-1) are like elevator operators of old...
               | extinct.
               | 
               | Seeing that local store go all-self, and a few others
               | looking like they're following suit slowly, has really
               | opened my eyes on how far companies will go to eliminate
               | jobs if paying a true living wage isn't reflected in the
               | value they provide.
               | 
               | Traditional cashiers are basically automatons which drag
               | items across a barcode scanner, and count change.
               | Shouldn't come as much of a surprise that those things
               | can be more cheaply performed by a machine, or foisted
               | onto the customer.
               | 
               | And maybe it's good that those jobs are going away? I'd
               | rather society have to answer some hard questions about
               | UBI than keep humans working in jobs that aren't
               | necessary. (See: Oregon gas pumps)
        
               | folkhack wrote:
               | Gotcha. I just find the self-checkout/cashier bit moot to
               | my original point. I could have easily said "retail
               | employees," or "the guy who makes my subs." Swap out
               | "cashier" with any entry-level/lower-skilled position and
               | that's my core point.
               | 
               | > And maybe it's good that those jobs are going away? I'd
               | rather society have to answer some hard questions about
               | UBI than keep humans working in jobs that aren't
               | necessary.
               | 
               | Seeing the backlash for just $10k worth of student debt
               | forgiveness I do not think that we're even close to
               | conversations like that. The notion of people's base
               | needs being met regardless of working is even less
               | palatable to the general riffraff because we've been sold
               | such a zero-sum game here. We're crabs in a bucket.
               | People go to _lengths_ to make sure someone they perceive
               | as less-than doesn 't get a "handout."
               | 
               | I have grown very, very pessimistic about people's
               | empathy in regards to the ever-growing economic divide.
               | What I've experienced in America is "I've got mine, f u"
               | - I'm a millennial maybe that gives some context.
               | 
               | ---
               | 
               | > Certainly I don't devalue the employee, but I don't
               | value the work they do.
               | 
               | Also, I wasn't going to address this, but... to me that
               | is 100% saying that you devalue the employee. If I
               | devalue someone's labor output, I'm devaluing them as an
               | employee - simple. I find this sentence to be a outright
               | contradiction.
        
               | mwint wrote:
               | The disagreement on the "devalue" thing is probably one
               | of semantics: I value the employee as a fellow human, but
               | I don't think the job of cashier is providing any value
               | to me.
               | 
               | The existence of "cashier" as a job is an impediment to
               | my goal: paying and walking out of a store with the goods
               | I want. Any alternative system which involves fewer
               | cashiers works quicker for me, observationally.
               | 
               | I think people - including cashiers - are inherently
               | valuable. But having someone _do_ a 1-1 cashier job is
               | both wasting their time and costing the company (and me)
               | unnecessary time and money. Their (valuable) labor would
               | be better spent elsewhere.
        
               | folkhack wrote:
               | > as a fellow human
               | 
               | That's not what we were discussing - we were discussing
               | you valuing them as an _employee_. Which if you devalue
               | their labor output then, yes, you certainly devalue them
               | as an employee. Saying  "I value them as a human" is an
               | entirely different concern/conversation IMO.
               | 
               | Sorry about the semantics, but I fully believe you
               | devalue self-checkout cashiers as employees after this
               | conversation.
               | 
               | Regardless - we're off in the weeds. I don't think we're
               | in a productive conversation. Respectfully, I'm bowing
               | out.
        
               | xboxnolifes wrote:
               | > > Certainly I don't devalue the employee, but I don't
               | value the work they do.
               | 
               | > Also, I wasn't going to address this, but... to me that
               | is 100% saying that you devalue the employee. If I
               | devalue someone's labor output, I'm devaluing them as an
               | employee - simple. I find this sentence to be a outright
               | contradiction.
               | 
               | Not the person replied to (And I know you said it was a
               | moot point), but in this case I would say I don't value
               | most cashier positions then. I say most, because not all
               | grocery stores are equal. Specifically, I've always had
               | good experiences at Wegmans, but my local grocery store
               | is now a Shoprite. At Wegmans, cashiers quickly and
               | efficiently scanned and bagged the things I purchased.
               | The Shoprite cashiers, on the hand, don't even bag my
               | goods. All they do is take an item off the conveyer, scan
               | it, and slide it down to the end so I can bag it myself.
               | This is less efficient than just doing everything myself.
        
       | melony wrote:
       | If you want more confidence, try electronic engineering. It will
       | make you question the value of your time.
        
         | throwaway81348 wrote:
         | Can you expand on " It will make you question the value of your
         | time." ?
        
         | [deleted]
        
         | koinedad wrote:
         | I would love to learn more in electronic engineering. But
         | you're saying the time necessary to spend can quickly feel not
         | worth the investment?
        
       | electrondood wrote:
       | Got into software engineering for the money, figuring it wouldn't
       | be intolerable.
       | 
       | Benefits I didn't expect:                 * Forced me to confront
       | lifelong imposter syndrome.       * Forced me to slow down and
       | pay attention to details, step through a process sequentially
       | during debugging, etc.       * Forced me to take ownership of
       | finding the answer when I didn't know the answer.       * Forced
       | me to convert theoretical "I solved it in my head" into practical
       | application.       * Forced me to overcome "math anxiety," the
       | fear of not finding the "right" answer.
        
         | koinedad wrote:
         | I second these!
        
       | wpietri wrote:
       | Aww, this is great! I'm all for career-switchers joining in. As
       | this describes, software is a very human pursuit. Outside
       | experiences help bring different skills and perspectives to the
       | work. And as he describes, that goes the other way too.
        
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