[HN Gopher] Why Adventure Games Suck (1989)
___________________________________________________________________
Why Adventure Games Suck (1989)
Author : ZeljkoS
Score : 43 points
Date : 2022-09-22 08:01 UTC (1 days ago)
(HTM) web link (grumpygamer.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (grumpygamer.com)
| cammikebrown wrote:
| What an interesting article. In 2004, I also agreed that
| adventure games were dead, and I was 15 at the time. As it turns
| out, we were both right. I loved the famous ones, like Myst and
| Monkey Island, along with a bunch of random games (does anyone
| remember The Journeyman Project? My absolute favorite! And
| Titanic Adventure Out of Time, and so many other unique
| projects). I also was able to play/replay a lot of classic text
| adventures, like Zork and the Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy
| (which, let's be honest, aren't always the most intuitive games).
|
| However, since 2016, when The Witness came out, I've given them
| another chance, and I really have hope. There are a lot of indie
| games which I hope others can go into detail about, and, most
| exciting of all, I saw that Ron Gilbert (the author of this
| piece) was making Return to Monkey Island, and I'm delighted to
| see that the reviews are great.
|
| PS: It's been awhile, but some of the IF (text adventure) games
| I've seen in the last decade have really been pushing the genre
| to new limits. Check em out!
| JackMorgan wrote:
| "Looks like... nasty weather."
|
| I remember playing Journeyman Project 2 and being so confused
| by it all. Time travel, aliens, disguises? Fascinating game.
| talideon wrote:
| They never died out in Europe, and they were paricularly
| popular in Germany.
|
| Interactive fiction had an underground renaissance, and some of
| the beat work in the genre were produced when it was
| technically a dead one. I agree that people should check out
| the IF Archive, and take a look at the state of tooling for
| creating them, which have made producing games much more
| accessable.
| user3939382 wrote:
| The only game I really enjoyed in the past 15 years was an
| adventure-type interactive fiction game called Vespers.
|
| Everything else might be good enough for a distraction but I
| wouldn't say I was actually intrigued.
| bspammer wrote:
| I would highly recommend Disco Elysium if you want a more
| recent interactive fiction game. My personal game of the decade
| for the 2010s :)
| eloisant wrote:
| I think the situation for point and click adventure games is much
| better now than in 2004.
|
| They rebirthed from their ashes as a healthy indies niche. We've
| have great adventure games in the recent years: Timbleweed Park,
| Deponia, Unavowed, and of course the recent Return of Monkey
| Island.
|
| Yes, they're no longer the dominating AAA genre, probably because
| their main draw have always been to tell a story (and a 2D
| platformer wasn't great for that), but now there are other genres
| that are also very good at telling a story. Basically the
| Action/Adventure/RPG/OpenWorld bucket.
| pteraspidomorph wrote:
| It's interesting how the horror game genre is currently actually
| still making almost all of these mistakes, yielding the same
| predictably frustrating outcomes (and yet people keep making
| them).
| FrankyHollywood wrote:
| I always loved adventure games, with Grim Fandango (1998) being
| one of my favourites.
|
| Nowadays Amanita design still makes great adventure and puzzle
| games, some are point & click. Really enjoyed them, and most are
| without text so my non-English speaking kids also love them
| https://www.amanita-design.net/
| izacus wrote:
| This was written before the best adventure game of all time,
| Disco Elysium, was released.
| quchen wrote:
| You just made me realize it's an adventure game. It's also an
| RPG and choose-your-adventure game and so much else, that I
| filed it as >>Disco Elysium<< without ever thinking about
| genres.
| izacus wrote:
| It's kinda amazing how many wishes from the original post it
| covers isn't it?
|
| I really love the modern evolution of the genre - we have old
| style point-and-click games, new style Telltale games,
| experiments like Disco and Detroit: Become Human. The genre
| has expanded a lot.
| nwellnhof wrote:
| The game is branded as RPG and there are a few "meta"
| dialogues where it's explicitly declared that you're playing
| an RPG, but I found that a bit strange. It always felt like a
| point-and-click adventure to me. But don't get me wrong, the
| RPG elements are excellent and it's one of the most
| innovative games ever.
| bilvar wrote:
| Disco Elysium itself suffers from those problems. Spoilers
| ahead:
|
| From the very first couple hours in the game you know the most
| important thing you should do is visit that 'island' - but the
| game does not give you any option to do so. You have to go
| through a very tedious grind to unlock the option, even though
| there is no real reason you shouldn't be able to. The game just
| doesn't allow you to do so.
|
| Personally, after I managed to get there, I realised the rest
| of the game was pointless.
| revolvingocelot wrote:
| !!! SPOILERS AHEAD !!!
|
| >From the very first couple hours
|
| I disagree. The plot thread you speak of isn't immediately
| apparent -- it takes hours to surface, and the likelihood of
| the island being the correct place to investigate is
| considered by Visual Calculus to be very low. We who have
| beaten it can opine about the ultimate conclusion being
| forgone, but the equally-important non-investigative plot
| threads took, at least in my case, enough time that I didn't
| really "notice" the ludic preventative of denying you a boat
| until endgame.
|
| !!! SPOLIERS END !!!
|
| >Personally, after I managed to get there, I realised the
| rest of the game was pointless
|
| I find this personally astounding. By contrast, I found the
| non-investigative plot threads, few of which have any real
| measureable outcome on the game's conclusion, to be the real
| stars of the show. When you watch police procedurals, do you
| just fast forward to the last ten minutes? Isn't the
| statefulness of the investigating characters interesting?
| elf25 wrote:
| prvc wrote:
| What's the message behind this submission, being so soon after
| the release of an adventure game by this article's author?
| MomoXenosaga wrote:
| Hollywood envy? Pretty funny now that the gaming industry has
| eclipsed Hollywood. Lot has happened since 1989!
| drunkenmagician wrote:
| article from 2004. Title update?
| chrismorgan wrote:
| Hmm, could fairly be labelled 2004 or 1989. Previous
| submissions here have been labelled (1989).
|
| March 19 2020, 150 points, 104 comments:
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22625578
| dang wrote:
| It's a wave-particle, but the bulk of the page is an article
| written in 1989, without which the submission wouldn't be here,
| so we've gone with 1989.
| BlargMcLarg wrote:
| What even is the definition of 'adventure game' used here? Dozens
| of adventure games were released in the 10 years prior to 2004.
| One of the most wellknown series, Legend of Zelda, never stopped
| producing. Is LoZ not considered an adventure series by these
| critics?
| cammikebrown wrote:
| Adventure games have always been a somewhat specific genre.
| Whether through text , 2D, or 3D, they're generally puzzle-
| driven, choose-your-own-adventure style narrative outings.
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adventure_game
| anthk wrote:
| >choose-your-own-adventure style narrative outings.
|
| Not in this context.
| eloisant wrote:
| He is talking about "point and click" adventure games like
| Monkey Island, the Sierra games, etc. Legend of Zelda clearly
| isn't a point and click game.
| ehnto wrote:
| The term Adventure has been overloaded, but it used to be a
| fairly concrete concept. Something like Legend of Zelda has
| adventure game elements in it, but it's much more action,
| combat and movement, something "traditional" adventure games
| don't have.
|
| Text adventure games are really the best example of the
| concepts that an adventure game usually has, even though they
| can also be graphical, like Monkey Island or Full Throttle. A
| more recent game series like Deponia fits the bill as well.
|
| I would say that there are a lot more games with old school
| adventure mechanics coming out than people might realise. A lot
| of them get bundled into the "Walking Simulator" category, but
| are far more Adventure game than anything else.
| vanderZwan wrote:
| I think _Legend of Zelda_ series is considered an " _action_
| -adventure game", not an "adventure game". The former tends to
| occupy the "gameplay space" of an action RPG with little to no
| stats or loot/inventory juggling, optionally with platforming
| (if 3D).
|
| It's a bit tricky because the definition of "action-adventure"
| broadened as LoZ added more gameplay elements, and more games
| became "LoZ adjacent" (although it's not as muddled as the
| definition of "rogue-like", which got all messed up because of
| Spelunky being a surprise hit).
|
| Adventure games are almost always narrative driven and puzzle-
| oriented though, and without RPG elements (because if they had
| strong RPG elements they'd just be called RPGs).
| BlargMcLarg wrote:
| By those standards, it feels like the author blindsided
| themselves immensely. Not only did the genre evolve to be
| more, the old style was picked up by indies. RPG maker games
| in particular (ironically not RPGs most of the time).
| Simultaneously, narrative became far more important in the
| other genres. Bing-bing-wahoo expanded beyond a cake
| invitation.
|
| All of these were true prior to 2004, and other genres
| evolved too.
| vanderZwan wrote:
| Most of article was written in 1989, including the
| headline. Which includes the date it was written. It also
| was written by the design lead of The Secret of Monkey
| Island I and II. It was _made public_ in 2004, and the
| author included this statement in the article:
|
| > _Some people will tell you that Adventure Games aren 't
| really dead, they have just morphed into other forms, or
| that other genres have absorbed Adventure Games. If this is
| true, they've done a pretty bad job of it._
|
| So I don't think it's blindsighted so much as old-man-
| yells-at-cloud disagreeing with you on what a Real
| Adventure Game is. Although in Ron Gilbert's defense, he
| also writes:
|
| > _As I read this some 15 years later, I 'm not sure I
| agree with everything in here anymore. I learned a lot from
| Monkey Island 1 and 2, plus countless kids Adventure Games
| at Humongous Entertainment. At some point in the near
| future, I will do an annotated version of this article,
| talking about things that have changed, or were just plains
| wrong. But in the meantime, there is something interesting
| on TV right now._
|
| So still not so much blindsighted as "never elaborated upon
| what he really thinks of the 1989 article these days".
| grumbel wrote:
| I wouldn't say the genre evolved, it pretty much peaked
| back in the early 90s and hasn't seen any serious
| improvements since. The pie-menus of Curse of Monkey Island
| were about the last lasting improvement I can think of.
| Everything else turned out a short lived gimmick, an
| outright failure (e.g. controls in MI4/Grim) or just a
| watering down (e.g. casual hidden-object games).
|
| And while narrative have become far more important in other
| genres, those style of narratives are completely different
| to what a point&click would offer. Action games are about
| action, you shoot or slash through things. You kill stuff.
| Narrative happens in cut-scenes without player control.
| It's not part of the gameplay. That's what makes
| point&click games special, as the there is no disconnect,
| the narrative is driven by the players the actions.
|
| And while there are certainly some RPGs that cross the
| line, not many do. The mainstream RPG is still obsessed
| with stats, collecting dozens of the same item and stuff
| like that. In a point&click almost everything is unique,
| there are no faceless copy&paste NPCs, no mountains of
| useless items to collect. If you find an item in a
| point&click, it's very likely part of the plot in some
| form.
| chongli wrote:
| _Adventure games are almost always narrative driven and
| puzzle-oriented though, and without RPG elements (because if
| they had strong RPG elements they 'd just be called RPGs)._
|
| The games of the _Quest for Glory_ series [1] are most
| definitely adventure games, not RPGs, despite having some RPG
| elements. They also happen to be my favourite adventure games
| due to the way most puzzles have multiple solutions (intended
| for the different character classes but not strictly required
| by them).
|
| The series is also one of the very few where you have the
| ability to export your character at the end of each game and
| import him into the next, allowing you to play all 5 games
| with the same character. This is made particularly
| interesting by the wildly different settings of each game as
| well as the evolving technology of the series.
|
| Not everyone likes all of the games, however. My personal
| favourite is the 4th game, Shadows of Darkness, which is
| fully voice acted and narrated by John Rhys-Davies. I think
| they're all worth playing through, however, especially by
| taking the same character all the way.
|
| [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quest_for_Glory
| svachalek wrote:
| You're both right, "strong RPG elements" and "some RPG
| elements" are not equivalent phrases.
| lucideer wrote:
| > _Adventure games are almost always narrative driven and
| puzzle-oriented though_
|
| LoZ is highly puzzle-oriented. Not so narrative driven though
| so if both are required, that fits... but:
|
| > _and without RPG elements (because if they had strong RPG
| elements they 'd just be called RPGs)._
|
| What are RPG elements in this context if not narrative?
| ehnto wrote:
| Most RPG's really boil down to point accumulation and skill
| trees that don't affect the plot at all.
|
| Which is a shame, because roles and skills could play a
| huge role in narrative if developers are able to put in the
| time. Some games do, the Fallout series often gives you
| different paths through the story depending on the
| abilities you've acquired.
| lucideer wrote:
| Ah this is all a good point, yeah. I guess I was more
| thinking of the presence of/emphasis on a narrative
| (quantity of dialogue, cut-scenes, character
| personalities, etc.) rather than the direct bearing that
| narrative has on gameplay (you're right that it's often
| relatively little).
|
| I hadn't really thought of Fallout as an RPG, nor e.g.
| Deus Ex, I guess the FP nature makes them seem more
| different. Witcher is more of one, but I guess they all 3
| have commonalities.
| vanderZwan wrote:
| You hit the nail on the head and I should have been more
| clear about that, thanks.
| msh wrote:
| He thinking things like kings quest, monkey island and so on. I
| would not consider zela an adventure game in this genre.
| elondaits wrote:
| I would call Legend of Zelda an action RPG. Although it has
| some puzzles, the main activity is exploring and fighting, your
| equipment and skills improve as you advance (allowing you to
| face against tougher monsters) and part of the challenge is
| administering consumable resources (e.g. healing items).
| There's always been a big overlap between adventures and
| rpgs... but the article talks about issues characteristic of
| the purest examples of the adventure genre (most Infocom text
| adventures, Sierra, Lucasarts, etc)
| dwighttk wrote:
| "I wrote this back in 1989 while I was designing Monkey Island.
| It is now the futuristic year of 2004 and we are all driving
| around in flying cars and wearing sliver jumps suits."
| talideon wrote:
| No, the LoZ series aren't adventure games in the original
| sense, which encompassed text adventures (now termed
| "interactive fiction") and point-and-click adventures.
|
| You also have the extra hint that this is Ron Gilbert's site,
| and if you know anything about him, the context for "adventure
| game" is pretty clear.
|
| Such games are story and puzzle heavy rather than having much
| in the way of action.
| nayroclade wrote:
| As much as I love text and point-and-click adventure games,
| there's always been an inherent contradiction to them. On the
| surface level, they promise nearly infinite freedom, more than
| any platform or first-person shooter game: That you can go
| anywhere, talk to anyone, perform and action on any object, and
| solve problems in whatever way you want. But in practice they're
| incredibly constrained. The world is an exquisitely constructed
| stage, with nothing beyond its margins, and there is only a very
| narrow, winding path to success. Puzzles have a single, usually
| somewhat tortured solution, and alternative approaches that would
| work in the real world are either not considered or declared
| impossible for spurious reasons.
|
| Beating an adventure game is often an exercise not just in
| problem solving, but in building an intuition about how the game
| designer(s) wanted you to approach puzzles. Tuning into the vibe
| of the game world and understanding what interactions and
| approaches are likely to work and which won't. The most you can
| hope for is that the solutions have at least some logic to them.
| It's a bit like learning to solve cryptic crosswords, where you
| need to learn a hidden language to unlock the actual problems.
| This can be an enjoyable and rewarding experience, but it is
| definitely _not_ the infinite freedom that the genre seems to
| offer up front, and I suspect for as many people who fell in love
| with these games, there were many who gave up in frustration at
| their paradoxical constrictiveness.
| JohnFen wrote:
| > On the surface level, they promise nearly infinite freedom,
| more than any platform or first-person shooter game: That you
| can go anywhere, talk to anyone, perform and action on any
| object, and solve problems in whatever way you want.
|
| What? I never thought that was their promise.
| tgv wrote:
| The puzzle conundrum continues to live on, though. Some time
| ago, I bought a game app from the "escape room" variety. It's
| got no relation to escape rooms, it's just how it's
| called/advertised. It consists of a sequence of situations
| where you have to find a final item, which the game recognizes
| as exit, so that's perhaps why.
|
| After the first level, the puzzles were rather convoluted and
| opposite to anything that would happen in real life. The
| "protagonist" decides to go to a bank (i.e., the next level is
| at the bank), and there passwords are hidden on a scrap of
| paper behind a ventilation grating in the toilet or as a bar-
| column in a financial report. Who would ever do that? You open
| a secret area by making sure the folders in two cabinets are in
| the same order. Then, when you find a cheque to the
| protagonist's father, he decides that's all the information the
| bank will reveal, and since he doesn't understand why that
| cheque was written in the first place, the next level obviously
| will be --I bet you already guessed it-- his father's church.
|
| At the church, you find a note taped to the inside of the bell
| in the bell tower. Then you ring the bell a few times, and the
| thing, which is larger than the protagonist, so must weigh
| several tonnes, comes crashing down. It lands in one piece on
| the church floor, and you can access the note. Then you have to
| move the pews in some pattern in order to access something
| else. In real life, it would be obvious that there is a
| mechanism attached to the pews, but the game just makes things
| visible or invisible as long as it keeps the player on the
| happy path.
|
| So yeah, I gave up on that one.
| mikepurvis wrote:
| YouTube game reviewer SkillUp talks frequently about the
| importance of great writing in selling mundane, repetitive
| content to players, particularly when it comes to single-
| objective side quests in open world games. He references The
| Witcher 3 as a game with many great examples (like the famous
| frying pan quest:
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m9-aHUyokr4), but another one
| that is often referenced is the Supideo quest line in AC:
| Odyssey ( https://assassinscreed.fandom.com/wiki/Supideo).
|
| Anyway, I think of this often with respect to real-life
| escape rooms. I've only done a handful, but of those, so many
| seem to be completely bare-bones, with little or no scenery,
| little or no story, basically nothing to justify exactly the
| type of inanity you describe, where numbers of random objects
| turn out to be the digits in combination locks or whatever.
|
| However there was one for me that really broke the mold-- the
| premise was that your long-lost great aunt had recently
| passed away, and you'd gone to recover valuables from her
| house before it got bulldozed to build a new highway. Quite
| apart from the nod to Douglas Adams, this immediately led to
| some terrific justification of otherwise standard game
| elements:
|
| - Getting trapped in the house because of her paranoia and
| multiple locks on all the doors and windows.
|
| - Having a time limit, enhanced and communicated by the
| increasingly loud sounds of construction equipment moving
| around "outside" the house.
|
| - Needing to make random connections, because she was a
| little batty and forgetful, so used random objects in her
| house to help keep track of how to get from room to room.
|
| Obviously the underlying gameplay fundamentals are exactly
| the same as any other low-budget escape room, but this
| particular experience really stuck with me as one that I felt
| far more invested in than usual, due mostly to how much more
| motivating even this threadbare "plot" was relative to others
| I'd seen.
| Zhyl wrote:
| To this end, I really enjoyed "Don't Escape: 4 Days to
| Survive"[1] which was included in the recent Itch bundle for
| Ukraine.
|
| It mixes adventure game with escape room, and whilst there is
| still a puzzle element to the game, it is much more pragmatic
| in its combinations. You find a nail, a boarded up building or
| something that needs building and it's a hammer that will solve
| all of them. You know that you will die of heat at the end of
| the day, so you need to find things that will cool your house
| down.
|
| I think this means that the whimsy and jovial aspect of 90s
| adventure games is lost, but it feels much more satisfying to
| solve a puzzle when the solution _makes sense_. If we wanted an
| adventure games renaissance, I would look to this game as a
| case study in addition to the points outlined in Ron 's
| article.
|
| [1] https://armor-games-studios.itch.io/dont-escape-4-days-to-
| su...
| tobiasSoftware wrote:
| I highly recommend a recent game called Outer Wilds that in my
| opinion takes the adventure game genre to the next level by
| giving it an open world feel. It does this through three ideas.
|
| First, there are no collectible items, the game is about
| seeking information and it uses that information as the keys to
| unlock new areas instead of items. This does make the game very
| spoilerable though, but it removes the "combine item 1 with
| item 2" type of puzzles that are infamous for feeling
| constrained.
|
| Second, it gives you an information map showing if there is any
| information left to find in each area. This gets around the
| problem of "pixel hunting" that early adventure games had where
| you missed something subtle so you had to wander through the
| entire game over again trying to find what you missed.
|
| Third, "late game" areas are accessible at any time but are
| locked behind multiple pieces of information. This means that
| you actually can get to late game areas early on, but most
| people simply won't. This gives the game a sort of "trust the
| player" feel, where instead of putting the game on rails to
| make sure no one goes off the track, the developers remove the
| rails and trust that most players will loosely follow the path
| they planned, even though some will inevitably jump the track
| and go through the game in a weird order.
| Bakary wrote:
| Where are you getting that first part about freedom? Maybe it's
| a generational thing but I can't seem to visualize them as
| anything but constrained from the outset.
|
| The Witness is maybe the 'freest' example I can think of but
| it's still a range of puzzles
| grumbel wrote:
| The freedom in a point&click is in the actions you perform.
| In a point&click there is no limit to your actions, as the
| actions are a combination of the verbs you have, the
| environment and the items you collect along the way. Which
| leaves endless possibilities. The restrictions are just in
| how crazy the narrative wants to get, but not in the
| interface.
|
| Other genres limit you to run, jump, shoot and a few other
| core mechanics, that they than run on repeat. You might get
| bigger guns along the way, but you aren't going to steal a
| pot from a cook to use it as helmet while joining the circus
| as you would in a point&click. When other genres want the
| player character to perform actions outside the core
| mechanics they often have to fall back to non-interactive
| cutscenes. In a point&click in contrast it's all part of the
| core gameplay, cutscenes are reserved to non-player scenes.
|
| Another thing to take into account here is the year, we are
| talking about early 90s here, back when most games were side
| scrollers that allowed you to just walk left and right.
| Point&click adventures were some of the first games with a
| movie-like presentation, you had real 3d scenes you could
| interact with, close ups, cutscenes, etc, not just abstract
| flat side-scrolling worlds. In times of GTAV, a point&click
| might not look all that impressive, but compared to the other
| stuff you had back then they were quite impressive.
| danjoredd wrote:
| I think they might be talking about games like Until Dawn,
| Life is Strange, or Heavy Rain. It feels very free on the
| first playthrough, but in practice they are restrained when
| you replay them.
| saiya-jin wrote:
| Nice summary on how I felt about adventures without realizing
| it. I just couldn't bring myself to play any for any
| significant time anymore. Back when I started with PC in 1993 I
| enjoyed Kyrandia II, and later Broken Sword, but what makes me
| tick are simply different sort of games.
| lmm wrote:
| The makers of _The Last Express_ , the only point-and-click
| adventure game I've played that really worked for me, had an
| interesting interview where they talked about how they chose
| the setting specifically to suit the constraints of the medium
| - it's the nature of an adventure game to be "on rails", and
| putting you onboard a short train was a way to allow you to
| move "freely", without artificial constraints, but without
| exploding the state space.
| aidenn0 wrote:
| The better adventure games anticipated multiple solutions to
| puzzles[1], which improves the sense of immersion, but the
| games in this genre are bounded by the imagination (and hard
| work) of the creator(s).
|
| 1: I recently read a review of the text-parser version of Quest
| For Glory and the reviewer commented on how they made a game
| out of trying to find something sensible to type in that _didn
| 't_ come with a reasonable response from the game. I haven't
| played the game in decades, but I remember trying to talk to a
| tree and getting something like 3 paragraphs of text in
| response...
| RicoElectrico wrote:
| I guess that poorly designed IQ tests often fall into these
| category as well. Some of the patterns you have to match seem
| soooo arbitrary.
|
| In the real world it's easier to reverse engineer someone's
| train of thought, as there's more context than some abstract
| shapes or numbers. In fact, as a programmer or engineer it's a
| necessary skill to develop.
| cainxinth wrote:
| > Puzzles have a single, usually somewhat tortured solution
|
| Potential spoiler alert... the forklift elevator puzzle in Grim
| Fandango springs to mind. It's so unintuitive and a
| disappointing part of what is otherwise an incredible game.
|
| When I play these types of games, I'll only bang my head
| against the wall for so long before I give up and Google the
| answer.
|
| If, upon learning the solution, I realize I should have been
| able to figure it out myself, I'll feel bad for not trying
| longer. But sometimes, I'll read the solution and say: "That's
| what you wanted me to do?!" and be glad I didn't spend all day
| trying to crack their impossible code.
| MomoXenosaga wrote:
| I played Grim Fandango with a guide.
|
| Grim Fandango was one of a few point and click games that has
| a story and world still worth experiencing without the
| puzzles.
| TheFattestNinja wrote:
| Related discussion from Yathzee (an internet-famous videogame
| critic) (possibly NSFW language)
|
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B0gQ0ed8R6A
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(page generated 2022-09-23 23:02 UTC)