[HN Gopher] 'Soleus pushup' fuels metabolism for hours while sit...
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'Soleus pushup' fuels metabolism for hours while sitting
Author : lend000
Score : 180 points
Date : 2022-09-22 19:58 UTC (3 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (stories.uh.edu)
(TXT) w3m dump (stories.uh.edu)
| [deleted]
| swayvil wrote:
| This could be automated via electrical stimulation. A couple of
| battery-powered boxes strapped to your legs. It could be quite
| fashionable.
| wturner wrote:
| The motion seems like it mimics what skateboarders do with their
| front foot when they ollie.
| Tenoke wrote:
| The front foot in an ollie tilts and slides outwards and up. It
| doesn't even face or move the same way as this.
| swamp40 wrote:
| Video of the motion: https://youtu.be/yaK6TThRMdE?t=40
| kenjackson wrote:
| It looks like fidgeting, but what you can't tell is if the
| muscle is exerting on the eccentric or what the intensity is.
| In any case, I'm going back to fidgeting for the afternoon.
| [deleted]
| t-3 wrote:
| Interesting. I wonder if this metabolic response is very
| important to human long-distance running capability or if it's
| just one small optimization among many? Small muscles used mostly
| during extended swimming or climbing might be worth investigation
| if muscle-activated metabolic modes are more common.
| AlexMuir wrote:
| This seems very close to the motion of rapid skipping. Once one
| can skip without jumping like a kangaroo it becomes almost
| effortless but also gets a good sweat on.
| toss1 wrote:
| The article & vid makes the specific point that this is NOT
| like walking or running (although skipping was not mentioned).
| It seems that they are trying to get the muscle to contract
| while NOT under load.
|
| A key seems to be that the muscle normally is setup to resist a
| load and so not change length while activated, and also has an
| unusually high percentage of cells recruited in each activation
| vs other muscles (most strong contractions in human muscles
| recruit like 20% of cells, iirc), so this is to get the full
| contraction effect and not just a resistance effect. (But I'm
| just reading into it...)
| boringg wrote:
| So when's the product release to provide specific soleus pushups
| coming out (as I do my soleus pushups at my desk)?
| kgwxd wrote:
| > When activated correctly...
|
| Any chance they found that it's the same activation you get from
| walking but just kind of left that part out?
|
| Edit: Never mind, watched the video. Apparently it's the exact
| reverse of that internally? Did they test a moonwalk?
| filoeleven wrote:
| > Additional publications are in the works focused on how to
| instruct people to properly learn this singular movement, but
| without the sophisticated laboratory equipment used in this
| latest study.
|
| Since everyone's harping on the previous paragraph and saying
| "they're just trying to sell us stuff!!" I figured I should put
| this quote in a top-level comment as an anti-inflammatory aid.
| _dain_ wrote:
| Since in the not too distant past we walked on all fours,
| wouldn't the analogous muscles in the wrist also have this
| ability as an atavism? Or did we lose it
| RobertRoberts wrote:
| Eat a _lot_ less. Exercise (even just a little). Don't snack late
| into the evening. Be hungry, on a consistent and regular basis.
| Don't over-eat.
|
| No magic, no cost, no special anything.
|
| It's not easy, and most people can't do it, but it works. And
| even if some magic product helps you lose weight, you will still
| need to follow the above rules anyways.
|
| It's like many smokers, they can't quit until they almost die,
| but then they just magically can quit, cause it's life and death.
| No magic product/idea, just time to make a change.
| pawelduda wrote:
| Sounds amazing at a first glance, but I was hoping to at least
| see them attempt to describe how the move is performed.
|
| Seems like a trailer for something that needs to be unlocked with
| money.
| petesergeant wrote:
| > In brief, while seated with feet flat on the floor and
| muscles relaxed, the heel rises while the front of the foot
| stays put. When the heel gets to the top of its range of
| motion, the foot is passively released to come back down. The
| aim is to simultaneously shorten the calf muscle while the
| soleus is naturally activated by its motor neurons.
| pawelduda wrote:
| Fair enough. I'm guilty of skimming the article, but I saw
| this: "The soleus pushup looks simple from the outside, but
| sometimes what we see with our naked eye isn't the whole
| story. It's a very specific movement that right now requires
| wearable technology and experience to optimize the health
| benefits", and some statements that made it sound like
| something requiring specific tech not available to the
| public.
|
| Thank you, gotta say with that description of the move now it
| doesn't sound that hard.
| canucker2016 wrote:
| from looking at pics of the gastrocnemius muscle (at the
| back of the lower leg, main portion from the knee, ending
| about midway down the lower leg, attaches to the achilles
| tendon) and the soleus muscle (underneath the
| gastrocnemius, extending from the knee down to the ankle),
| the gastrocnemius shouldn't activate during the motion.
|
| It seems like you could put your hand on the back of your
| calf, close to the knee, and ensure that the gastrocnemius
| doesn't flex/stays loose during the motion.
| elchief wrote:
| there's a video on the site, but here's the link:
|
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yaK6TThRMdE
| steve_john wrote:
| fefe23 wrote:
| They could have tried a bit harder to not make this sound like
| "DOCTORS HATE THIS TRICK"
| pushcx wrote:
| For all the comments wondering what the particular movement and
| equipment is, see pages 5 and 6 of the supplementary materials:
| https://ars.els-cdn.com/content/image/1-s2.0-S25890042220114...
| The equipment is an electromyography system with realtime
| display. It measures the muscle contraction and is displayed to
| the subject so they can learn to recognize the movement that
| properly activates the muscle. Contrary to the video, you do not
| need to be an academic to buy one, they're fairly common in high-
| end sports coaching/rehab and you can find a cheap arduino-
| compatible system on Amazon if you want to DIY.
|
| If you don't read much exercise science, it's worth noting the
| paper says "It is important to note that volunteers in Experiment
| I (Table S1) were typically sedentary (verified with an objective
| tracking device), and none of them had a high aerobic
| cardiorespiratory fitness (determined by treadmill VO2max or the
| maximal oxygen consumption test)." A common pitfall of exercise
| science is that _almost anything_ works wonderfully on untrained
| sedentary subjects. Wait for replication.
| canucker2016 wrote:
| But sedentary people are the target audience for this exercise.
|
| Athletes worry about having enough energy during their
| exercise.
|
| When many people in developed countries are obese or
| overweight, every technique helps, especially something for
| those who don't like to sweat...
| tylervigen wrote:
| Right but the point is that there may be nothing special
| about this particular exercise.
|
| It's a bit complicated to get the equipment and training to
| learn how to do this; maybe that effort is better allocated
| to just encouraging people to get up and go for a walk every
| once in a while.
| throw101010 wrote:
| > maybe that effort is better allocated to just encouraging
| people to get up and go for a walk every once in a while.
|
| This method has been used for decades and the results on
| the obesity rates do not seem to be very good so far. Maybe
| it's time to try other approaches.
| ravenstine wrote:
| From the article:
|
| _So, how do you perform a soleus pushup?
|
| In brief, while seated with feet flat on the floor and muscles
| relaxed, the heel rises while the front of the foot stays put.
| When the heel gets to the top of its range of motion, the foot is
| passively released to come back down. The aim is to
| simultaneously shorten the calf muscle while the soleus is
| naturally activated by its motor neurons._
| alliao wrote:
| wonder if drummers (who may activate it more than others) have
| statistically significant advantage over others with similar
| sitting down lifestyle and energy output... big claims, great if
| true!
| kwhitefoot wrote:
| The article contains a link to a more scholarly article:
| https://reader.elsevier.com/reader/sd/pii/S2589004222011415?...
| hondo77 wrote:
| In case anyone is wondering: "There were in
| total 25 human volunteers in 2 sequential experiments..."
|
| Broken down, that's 10 in one experiment, 15 in the other. No
| reason to get too excited with such a small sample size.
| earleybird wrote:
| "It's not as simple as simply doing a heel lift or raising your
| legs when you're sitting or shaking your leg or fidgeting. It's a
| very specific movement that's designed where we use some
| technologies that aren't necessarily available to the public
| unless you're a scientist and you know how to use it."
|
| This has a bit of a 'smell' that I can't quite put my finger on.
| Melatonic wrote:
| They also say though that the end goal is to teach people how
| to do the movement with no equipment.
|
| So maybe not so BS
| digdugdirk wrote:
| The actual quote from the article - "The soleus pushup looks
| simple from the outside, but sometimes what we see with our
| naked eye isn't the whole story. It's a very specific movement
| that right now requires wearable technology and experience to
| optimize the health benefits," said Hamilton.
|
| This is a statement around how to activate the soleus itself,
| and its an accurate statement for the majority of the
| population. It's an odd muscle to target, as we're generally
| more used to using our gastrocnemius muscles when plantar-
| flexing our ankle joint. Sitting helps target the soleus (which
| is why you might find a seated calf-raise machine next to a
| standing calf-raise machine at the gym) but it still requires a
| strong mind-muscle connection to activate without having the
| gastrocnemius take over.
|
| Having some electrodes to measure and display specifically
| targeted muscle output would help, and this is likely what he's
| referring to in the article.
| zmgsabst wrote:
| I agree that it would help.
|
| But I'm pretty sure you can just touch the lower, outer part
| of your ankle (where it's documented in the picture) to find
| out if you're flexing the right one. Thinking about pointing
| my toes helped.
|
| I think people are right the difficulty is oversold.
| digdugdirk wrote:
| The trick with the soleus is that its _underneath_ the
| gastroc. And in many people 's musculoskeletal structures,
| its entirely underneath the gastroc - meaning your trick
| won't help. Combine that with some compensatory activation
| of the gastroc during this movement and people won't be
| able to effectively train themselves to get the full effect
| of what the researchers are going for here - prolonged
| duration soleus activation.
|
| I'm not saying they couldn't have done a better job
| explaining how to do this at home, but its a surprisingly
| difficult thing to explain to someone face-to-face when
| you're a personal trainer. Let alone when as a scientist
| when you only get a short blurb to convey information about
| your latest research study.
| petesergeant wrote:
| Also: "It's a very specific movement that right now requires
| wearable technology and experience to optimize the health
| benefits"
|
| Great, sounds patent-able!
| canucker2016 wrote:
| from the YouTube video, you can see the movement (positioned at
| 6 secs into the video):
|
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yaK6TThRMdE&t=6s
|
| Of course, my friend's Chinese grandmother would admonish my
| friend for doing this movement at the table - evidently she
| considered the movement to be an indicator for something that
| shouldn't be mentioned at the dining table.
| dqpb wrote:
| They're saying it's difficult to explain how to isolate the
| muscle. For example, two simple ways to lift only your heel
| from a sitting position are:
|
| 1. Push down with the ball if you foot
|
| 2. Lift up with your hip/quad
|
| They look the same, but are completely different. Do either of
| them activate the Soleus? Do neither of them?
| Someone wrote:
| #2 I would call a pull up or lift up, not a push up, so I
| assume it's more like #1.
| digdugdirk wrote:
| ^ This.
|
| Its not snake oil, its a statement from a scientist who
| attaches musculoskeletal monitoring equipment to people on a
| regular basis and knows exactly how capable the average
| person is at activating specific muscles on command.
| nibbleshifter wrote:
| > and knows exactly how capable the average person is at
| activating specific muscles on command.
|
| "Basically terrible".
|
| It took me a really long time to work out what exactly the
| fuck "activate your core" meant.
|
| Never mind "activate this muscle you have never thought
| about before".
| peppertree wrote:
| In this house we respect the law of thermodynamics!
| NotYourLawyer wrote:
| Smells like bullshit garnished with snake oil.
| canucker2016 wrote:
| Three paragraphs earlier in the article: "So,
| how do you perform a soleus pushup? In brief,
| while seated with feet flat on the floor and muscles relaxed,
| the heel rises while the front of the foot stays put. When the
| heel gets to the top of its range of motion, the foot is
| passively released to come back down. The aim is to
| simultaneously shorten the calf muscle while the soleus is
| naturally activated by its motor neurons."
|
| I think that gives the reader enough to replicate the Soleus
| Pushup - perhaps an indication on where the effort/force is to
| be emphasized/felt would help.
|
| Looking up "heel lift", the Soleus Pushup reads/sounds a lot
| like a seated heel lift. see
| https://www.livestrong.com/article/137423-heel-lift-exercise...
| irrational wrote:
| Yes, this press release reads like one of those "I know the
| secret to weight loss that has been lost since ancient times!
| Just one payment of $29.99 will get you on the path to your
| ideal beach body!" But, then I noticed this was from an actual
| university. Huh. And it doesn't ask for money. And it basically
| gives the "secret" in the article. But it definitely has that
| snake oil smell.
| tyingq wrote:
| Yeah, there's an implied _" and if I identify for you the
| simple way to do this yourself without equipment, my business
| model goes poof...so I'll just identify two or three things
| that don't leverage that muscle"_.
| peregrine wrote:
| raises many questions:
|
| - what movements was this evolved to support? (sprinting? walking
| a different way than was studied? running?)
|
| - Are our shoes causing us to underuse this muscle?
|
| Just from the video and the cadence shown I suspect if you did a
| slightly quick jog running on your forefoot you might hit that
| muscle on the rebound.
| trynewideas wrote:
| See? Don't skip leg day.
| giarc wrote:
| Don't skip ankle day.
| lend000 wrote:
| Curious if anyone here had additional context around this. Do
| calf raises have a similar effect? Do people with a habit of
| bouncing their calves while seated (essentially a soleus pushup
| as described in the article) have higher metabolisms on average?
|
| It makes sense that a part of a calf muscle could have
| exceptional endurance, given the importance of walking in humans,
| but the article seems to say walking doesn't use it enough to
| activate the same effect. Maybe running?
|
| The article makes some big claims and it would be interesting to
| see an independent review.
| notyourday wrote:
| > Do calf raises have a similar effect?
|
| Unlikely as untrained person would have a very hard time doing
| 50 calf raises
| digdugdirk wrote:
| Not sure about the specific differences in glucose utilization
| between the soleus and the gasctroc (the other main calf
| muscle) but in general, yes. Calf raises should have a similar
| effect. The key factor seems to be the soleus doesn't fatigue
| as quickly, allowing this to be sustained to a point where the
| muscle energy source shifts to a more long term type of fuel.
|
| As for people who bounce their calves? Absolutely - this is
| called NEAT (Non Exercise Activity Thermogenesis) in scientific
| research. Its lumped in with general movement - walking,
| climbing stairs, etc. This can account for a few hundred
| calories per day. Here's an overview study that claims up to
| 350 calories per day:
| https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6058072/
| urubu wrote:
| Standing calf raises train the gastrocnemius and the soleus.
| Many gyms also have a seated calf raise machine which is meant
| to isolate the soleus.
|
| I don't think I ever felt anything special after using it.
| digdugdirk wrote:
| You'd know if you had isolated the soleus. It feels weirdly
| (but noticeably) different to activating the gastroc. Much
| deeper and more centralized.
| renewiltord wrote:
| Seems hard to do since your gastrocnemius will just take over.
| Whatever, I'll do random heel lifts anyway. The calves could use
| some strengthening.
| jollyllama wrote:
| So just tap your foot in a weird way and you can keep your
| metabolism high?
| layer8 wrote:
| "How to lose weight with this one weird trick."
| notyourday wrote:
| ... which works as long as one does not consume more calories
| that the total amount of calories one burns (i.e. is in a
| caloric deficit). The real issue is that individuals who suffer
| from excessive weight tend to be in a caloric surplus
| jollyllama wrote:
| It wouldn't be much of a metabolism trick at all if it
| doesn't work in ketosis or fasting. If you can burn fat, it
| should still work.
| notyourday wrote:
| > It wouldn't be much of a metabolism trick at all if it
| doesn't work in ketosis or fasting. If you can burn fat, it
| should still work.
|
| Body will always switch to burning mostly fat after a
| prolonged period of physical activity which studies suggest
| for moderate level of constant physical activity happens
| somewhere around 90 minute mark. There are no magic
| bullets.
| pessimizer wrote:
| > There are no magic bullets.
|
| How would you know this?
| kevin_thibedeau wrote:
| Yes. It's just simulated fidgeting which has been demonstrated
| to burn a meaningful amount of calories.
| jollyllama wrote:
| I'm reminded of those under desk fitness bikes.
| mmastrac wrote:
| I'm curious if this is the same muscle that causes Charlie
| Horses. I can activate it on its own without moving my leg and
| can hold it in tension for a long time but if you flex it too
| hard it knots and is quite painful.
|
| The way that I can flex it:
|
| Lie on your back on the floor with your heels on a couch, knees
| approx 90 degrees
|
| Tip/rotate your foot forward and you'll feel a large muscle
| engage
|
| Try and flex that muscle like you would your bicep or pectorals.
| You'll find that you can hold it for quite some time.
|
| Edit: I managed to hold it for a few minutes and it's a very odd
| feeling afterwards. Almost like I had done a bunch of stairs with
| no cardio.
|
| Edit 2: Standing afterwards wasn't fun - I had to stretch my
| calves out to walk normally.
| outworlder wrote:
| > I'm curious if this is the same muscle that causes Charlie
| Horses.
|
| Not sure what you mean. We can have charlie horses in any
| skeletal muscle.
| mmastrac wrote:
| Oh yeah, but at least in myself, they are primarily in the
| calves.
| ibrahimsow1 wrote:
| I don't understand the physical motion. Simply raising the heel
| whilst sitting?
| ivan_ah wrote:
| See this video at t=34 secs:
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yaK6TThRMdE&t=34s
|
| Seems pretty simple... I guess what is special is (1) you can
| do it while sitting, and (2) the muscle doesn't seem to get
| tired so you can do it all day.
| [deleted]
| lapetitejort wrote:
| I think it's more complicated based on the article:
|
| > "...It's a very specific movement that right now requires
| wearable technology and experience to optimize the health
| benefits."
|
| So it sounds like the performer may have to look at a graph to
| see that the right motion has been achieved? This video
| reinforces the notion:
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yaK6TThRMdE
| grahamplace wrote:
| From the article:
|
| > In brief, while seated with feet flat on the floor and
| muscles relaxed, the heel rises while the front of the foot
| stays put. When the heel gets to the top of its range of
| motion, the foot is passively released to come back down.
| version_five wrote:
| "We never dreamed that this muscle has this type of capacity.
| It's been inside our bodies all along, but no one ever
| investigated how to use it to optimize our health, until now,"
| said Hamilton. "When activated correctly, the soleus muscle can
| raise local oxidative metabolism to high levels for hours, not
| just minutes, and does so by using a different fuel mixture."
|
| I'm can't evaluate the claims, but this kind of language makes me
| suspicious. Is this some whole new phenomenon or are there
| existing, known effects that this somehow parallels?
| digdugdirk wrote:
| There are people who train their entire bodies to function on
| different biochemical processes, generally long distance
| endurance athletes training to perform in a fat adapted state
| for ultramarathons and the like.
|
| The research here just seems to suggest that the soleus muscle
| itself has a lower "barrier to entry" before utilizing
| different energy sources (blood glucose and fat oxidation)
| which allows it to sustain activity for a longer time duration.
| This makes sense, as the soleus is highly involved in walking,
| and humans basically evolved to walk more than we've evolved to
| do anything else.
| soperj wrote:
| I wonder if there is some kind of unintended consequences to
| using that fuel mixture...
| spywaregorilla wrote:
| This is just leg bouncing right? Like sitting in a chair and
| moving your leg up and down? The thing that people yell at you
| for because it's annoying and rumbles the table and the car and
| the chairs?
|
| edit: yes it is. it's shown in the first ten seconds of the
| video.
| croes wrote:
| "The soleus pushup looks simple from the outside, but sometimes
| what we see with our naked eye isn't the whole story. It's a
| very specific movement that right now requires wearable
| technology and experience to optimize the health benefits"
| spywaregorilla wrote:
| This statement applies to pretty much every form of physical
| activity though
| twobitshifter wrote:
| The article says you need special training and it's not just
| fidgeting. I'm not sure what to make of that.
| klyrs wrote:
| Work from home, nobody will know how much your legs are quaking
| if your camera isn't mechanically linked to them...
| spywaregorilla wrote:
| I've been called out for shaking my camera resting on the
| table actually.
| klyrs wrote:
| That counts as mechanical linkage. My camera and monitor
| are attached to the wall, not my desk, for precisely this
| reason.
| revolvingocelot wrote:
| I mean, it's not _just_ leg bouncing in that I can bounce my
| leg in a way that clearly doesn 't activate the soleus in the
| manner shown in the video.
|
| But it also is just leg bouncing in that there's no more
| complicated motion than a certain sort of slow, controlled leg-
| bounce.
| ourmandave wrote:
| Can I get a health app update on my Apple Watch that tracks my
| leg bouncing?
|
| Cause I could break records if I'm in meetings all week.
| jaggs wrote:
| Near the end of the actual paper
| (https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S258900422...)
| -
|
| "Here we have focused on a method of raising slow oxidative
| muscle metabolism to complement (not replace) existing
| approaches."
|
| Maybe less snake oil and more a reasoned hypothesis?
| neilknowsbest wrote:
| As an aside, the web page for this story shows pictures of a
| study participant seated in front of a big monitor displaying
| their vitals. I don't know much about study design, but I feel
| like that would confound results.
| thebeardisred wrote:
| It looked to me as if it was a biofeedback system for the
| purpose of aiding the individual in isolating the correct
| muscle movement(s).
| Jweb_Guru wrote:
| These claims sound pretty suspect and much more selective
| journals than iScience have published completely bogus research
| before. Would like to see this replicated many, many times before
| anyone starts selling a product whose purported benefits are
| demonstrated solely from a single research study from a highly
| conflicted author.
| pessimizer wrote:
| > much more selective journals than iScience have published
| completely bogus research before.
|
| Do you post this under every journal article? Reminding
| everyone that things have been false before in places?
| swamp40 wrote:
| > Instead of breaking down glycogen, the soleus can use other
| types of fuels such as _blood glucose_ and _fats_. Glycogen is
| normally the predominant type of carbohydrate that fuels muscular
| exercise.
|
| > When the SPU was tested, the whole-body effects on blood
| chemistry included a 52% improvement in the excursion of blood
| glucose (sugar) and 60% less insulin requirement over three hours
| after ingesting a glucose drink.
|
| That's amazing if it is true.
| bluGill wrote:
| Most muscles can use a variety of energy sources. Cells have
| had to deal with famine and seasons since long before humans,
| and so needed ways to use whatever energy is available. Sugar
| is by far the easiest to use for energy, but fats are used as
| well.
| debacle wrote:
| Not a biologist, but I would wonder why only this muscle would
| be capable of this. Metabolizing fats is a complex process.
| kiba wrote:
| If you do aerobic exercise, you metabolize fat.
| debacle wrote:
| But _in a muscle_? That seems to be the argument here,
| unless it 's just bad journalism.
| porpoisemonkey wrote:
| Also not a biologist - just an enthusiastic layman.
|
| The Soleus muscle (Soleal pump) is partially responsible for
| helping to return blood from your legs back up to your heart
| while upright. [1] This is a fairly critical process so it
| would make sense that it would be able to metabolize multiple
| energy sources.
|
| [1] https://www.physio-pedia.com/Soleus
| lock-the-spock wrote:
| Interesting. And the logical second conclusion is that this
| is an evolutionarily costly process, otherwise it would be
| common across our muscles. Maybe the muscle has a higher
| risk of injury, degeneration, cancer than othe muscles...?
| swamp40 wrote:
| Might have something to do with the "need for speed". Running
| further than your glycogen alone can take you - increases
| your survival odds.
| cowmoo728 wrote:
| All muscles are capable of metabolizing fat. In cycling (and
| other endurance sports), one of the adaptations observed in
| top athletes is that their muscles become highly efficient at
| metabolizing fat during medium-intensity exercise. A
| professional endurance athlete will metabolize about 70% fat,
| 30% carbs for the majority of a multi-hour event. This
| preserves their muscle glycogen for the high-intensity bits
| where they need to push 400+ watts for 20-30 minutes up a
| final climb, or do a 1200w sprint to the finish line. When
| the intensity level exceeds a threshold, the muscle will
| begin switching to nearly 100% glycogen. Once that glycogen
| is depleted, muscles lose their top-end peak power output.
|
| Sedentary overweight people tend to become very inefficient
| at metabolizing fat. At anything higher than a slow walking
| pace, for example, they will begin the cutover to glycogen
| and turn down fat metabolism.
|
| I believe the press release is saying that the soleus muscle
| is unique in that it does not have a readily accessible store
| of glycogen. So even in sedentary people that are normally
| extremely inefficient at metabolizing fat, exercising the
| soleus will force their body to metabolize blood glucose and
| fat. Normally it takes months or even years of slow and
| steady exercise to make a sedentary overweight person
| effectively metabolize fat while exercising at an intensity
| high enough to trigger serious metabolic improvements. So if
| true, the soleus muscle would be a magic shortcut to this
| process.
| mmastrac wrote:
| In this case, is the body releasing actual fat into the
| bloodstream for use by the muscles, rather than the fat
| stores burning fat directly for ATP?
| cowmoo728 wrote:
| Yes, fatty acids are bound up in TriAcylGlycerol (TAG).
| Exercise triggers the breakdown of TAG in fat reserves,
| sending fatty acids into the blood. These fatty acids go
| through a pretty complicated process to be delivered into
| a muscle cell, and then into the muscle cell
| mitochondria. This transport process cannot keep up with
| energy expenditure during intense exercise, thus the
| cutover to stored muscle glycogen (and at even higher
| peak loads under about 10 seconds, creatine phosphate).
|
| Sedentary people lose the ability to rapidly deliver fat
| into muscle cell mitochondria.
|
| This is a good summary of the current state of the
| research.
|
| https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5766985/
| drivers99 wrote:
| Randomly (by searching) found this. Sounds like the
| former thing you said (where "adipose tissue" is "actual
| fat" you mentioned, releases fatty acids to circulation
| (bloodstream), which are used by the muscles).
|
| > During exercise, triacylglycerols, an energy reservoir
| in adipose tissue, are hydrolyzed to free fatty acids
| (FAs) which are then released to the circulation,
| providing a fuel for working muscles
|
| https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fphys.2019.0
| 002...
| digdugdirk wrote:
| There are a lot of callouts of "This is BS" in regards to this
| article.
|
| Look at it from a different perspective. I would _HIGHLY_ prefer
| this to a short press release blurb that allows pop-science
| clickbait aggregators (or even worse, the "science" sections of
| CBS/CNN and the like) to have first crack at it.
|
| This was produced by the university themselves, and provides a
| concise yet accurate and detailed overview of the biochemistry
| involved, as well as a nice short embedded youtube video
| demonstrating the movement in question and going over the main
| points of the research.
|
| Yes, improvements could be made, and yes, follow up studies will
| need to be performed. But this is head and shoulders above the
| "ONE SMALL TRICK, DIETICIANS HATE HIM" alternative we would have
| gotten otherwise.
| lock-the-spock wrote:
| Exactly. Essentially the trick is not "use this muscle". It
| rather is "do this specific movement with this muscle. I can
| describe it quite simply, but to truly learn it you'll need a
| biofeedback device and you need to know what you're working
| towards."
|
| There are a lot of surprising skills that we could learn if we
| just knew how and put in the effort. See e.g. the blind
| mountainbikers using echolocation to 'see' the path, or method
| of loci/other memory techniques.
| Tenoke wrote:
| >I can describe it quite simply, but to truly learn it you'll
| need a biofeedback device and you need to know what you're
| working towards.
|
| I don't know, some gifs from different angles would sure have
| helped more given our lack of devices (though yes, the video
| does show one important angle).
|
| At any rate the complaints aren't so much in the description
| but in it being yet another simple trick, of which we see
| thousands and few if any pan out especially to the level
| claimed here.
| cardosof wrote:
| So if I activate this tiny muscle in my calf for a while my
| metabolism will be up for hours? And where all that added energy
| will go? I don't know a thing in this area but I know that when
| something looks too good to be true, it probably isn't.
| zaven wrote:
| lostlogin wrote:
| > when something looks too good to be true, it probably isn't.
|
| Is that a typo or are you a very lucky individual?
| anikan_vader wrote:
| >> It probably isn't [true].
| tsimionescu wrote:
| I think they mean, when something looks too good to be true,
| it probably isn't [true] (though that's not how the phrase is
| normally used, of course).
| mikhailyus wrote:
| If the muscle can be activated only by specific equipment, how it
| survived the evolution? Why is it still in our bodies?
| steve_adams_86 wrote:
| The muscle is activated constantly during walking and running
| for example; I once strained mine and it took a long time to
| heal because it fires so frequently.
|
| The point here is that it's non-trivial to activate it on
| command while sitting. The special equipment is likely meant to
| activate the muscle for all users on command, making their
| research far more reliable.
| peanut_worm wrote:
| Wonder if this has anything to do with how some people nervously
| tap their feet
| ravenstine wrote:
| > Hamilton's research suggests the soleus pushup's ability to
| sustain an elevated oxidative metabolism to improve the
| regulation of blood glucose is more effective than any popular
| methods currently touted as a solution including exercise, weight
| loss and intermittent fasting.
|
| I want to believe in this idea, but all I can say is that's quite
| a claim.
|
| I _could_ believe that it 's more effective at glucose regulation
| than exercise, but to say that it's more effective than weight
| loss seems peculiar because loss of _fat mass_ (which I 'm
| assuming is what is meant by weight loss) is a result of
| downregulating how much glucose and fat (insuling being present
| in response to glucose) can enter cells. Maybe there's a logic to
| that statement, but it seems to be comparing a cause to an
| effect. Presumably, if the soleus pushup lives up to its name, it
| would have a negative effect on fat mass. If blood glucose was
| poorly regulated, absent a failure to produce enough insulin, fat
| loss would be a sign of better blood glucose regulation.
|
| > The new approach of keeping the soleus muscle metabolism
| humming is also effective at doubling the normal rate of fat
| metabolism in the fasting period between meals, reducing the
| levels of fat in the blood (VLDL triglyceride).
|
| I'm sure that my confusing here is a result of ignorance, but not
| all fat metabolism is proximal to where it's stored, so I would
| not expect VLDL to be reduced, but the opposite. Also, fat isn't
| just transported by VLDL but by chylomicrons. If the fat being
| metabolized isn't postprandial, maybe it's still getting
| transported another way? I'd think it would have to unless
| something special is going on.
|
| EDIT: Nevermind, I think I had it backwards. Chylomicrons
| transport dietary fat from the intestine.
|
| And too bad my DIY calorimeter has a broken sensor, because I
| would love to test myself and see if such an exercise has a
| measurable effect on RQ.
| wrycoder wrote:
| I believe that the journal article is freely downloadable[0].
|
| [0]
| https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S258900422...
| (pdf)
|
| What is this diy calorimeter?
| ravenstine wrote:
| Oh, you're right. For some reason I thought it was requesting
| I pay.
|
| A calorimeter in a general sense measures heat transference,
| calories being a measure of heat.
|
| More specifically, what I build is an _indirect_ calorimeter
| which uses respiratory gas analysis to not only measure human
| energy expenditure in calories but make an approximation of
| the ratio of glucose to fat being utilized. The reason I
| might fix my calorimeter sooner rather than later is to see
| whether I can witness greater glucose utilization with the
| soleus pushup than with other exercises of the similar energy
| expenditure.
|
| EDIT: In the paper it states that they used an indirect
| calorimeter. It's a very cool device to have access to, but I
| don't recommend anyone build their own like I did. As the
| paper describes, it's really hard to get right with even the
| best equipment. Calibration is very difficult and subtle body
| movements can totally mess with a reading.
|
| > VO2 and VCO2 production were determined using a TrueOne
| 2400 metabolic system from Parvo Medics. The gas analyzers
| and pneumotach were calibrated according to standard
| manufacturer procedures using certified calibration gases.
| Sufficient time to flush out the gas lines and average steady
| state measurements was always confirmed. The measurement
| period was extended when it was deemed helpful (such as if
| there was a fluctuation in VO2 caused by a cough or when
| taking additional time to confirm the precision of the
| result). We were careful to ensure participants were
| positioned when sitting completely relaxed to avoid
| extraneous movement beyond the intended SPU plantarflexion
| movement. This included positioning the chair back rest and
| height for each individual to optimize a restful position.
| wrycoder wrote:
| Do you have a link to your technology?
|
| Why is the indirect method so sensitive to extraneous
| movement? More so than just reflecting the additional
| energy expenditure?
| birdyrooster wrote:
| I am always doing soleus pushups to stim for my ADHD and it
| hasn't kept me from getting fat or tired.
| gitpusher wrote:
| > "Hamilton's research suggests the soleus pushup [...] is more
| effective than any popular methods currently touted as a solution
| [to a sedentary lifestyle] including exercise, weight loss and
| intermittent fasting."
|
| Better than exercise? LOL.
| nibbleshifter wrote:
| Better than exercise in that most people living a sedentary
| lifestyle basically get none, and are shit at sticking with
| exercise regimens.
|
| Better than IF in that IF is a crock of wank.
|
| Better than weight loss in that most people who lose weight
| gain it back rather quick.
|
| Basically they are saying this is low effort and efficient
| enough to be better than those options in the realistic
| scenario of many people being bad at the alternatives
| lock-the-spock wrote:
| The example patient in the video is rather senior and he seems
| to aim at diabetics/age-related issues.
| dang wrote:
| " _Please don 't post shallow dismissals, especially of other
| people's work. A good critical comment teaches us something._"
|
| https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
| Melatonic wrote:
| Learn this one easy but weird trick to COMPLETELY counter the
| effects of a sedentary lifestyle. Personal trainers HATE this!
| cheschire wrote:
| Coincidentally I saw the domain name right after reading that
| sentence.
| notyourday wrote:
| I think this is going to end up being an overblow over-
| editorialized headline.
|
| This looks to be an example of NEAT movements, which engage
| muscles and therefore of course increases energy requirement. The
| effect of NEAT on energy requirements of a body is fairly well
| studies and fairly well known. It would have been far more
| interesting if it lasted for over 4 hours as that would at least
| in theory pass the 2nd level signaling.
|
| If you are interested in this, I highly recommend Huberman's
| podcasts such as https://hubermanlab.com/how-to-lose-fat-with-
| science-based-t...
|
| and
|
| https://hubermanlab.com/dr-andy-galpin-how-to-build-strength...
| jawns wrote:
| I'm a former journalist, and I'd like to touch on some of the
| comments about how this article reads like a dubious infomercial,
| with a lot of outsized claims that are setting off people's B.S.
| detectors.
|
| They set off mine, as well.
|
| But you have to remember that this is not a news article. It is
| not written by someone with any degree of expertise in the
| subject matter. Rather, it's written by a member of the media-
| relations department at the university. The only source for the
| piece appears to be Marc Hamilton, a professor at the university.
|
| So what you're likely perceiving is the author trying to hype up
| something that is inherently pretty boring and technical, and it
| comes off as B.S.
| cycomanic wrote:
| Very likely it's not the professor hyping it, but the uni
| communications office. This reads like a typical uni press
| release. The scientists typically have little influence on it,
| they typically read the text that there is no factual errors,
| but they also leave it to the subject experts (the
| journalists/communicators) to write the text.
| hn_throwaway_99 wrote:
| I agree with all the other comments about this - the whole thing
| stinks of a BS infomercial, for very specific reasons:
|
| 1. Are people supposed to do this contraction _indefinitely_
| while sitting? Good luck with that.
|
| 2. Is this only supposed to be done with an e-stim machine to
| generate the contraction? Again, if so, it may be an interesting
| curiosity, but it's not practical.
|
| FWIW I wouldn't have such a negative reaction if the whole site
| and presentation wasn't in "slick bullshit" form, but instead
| conservatively, and _clearly_ , presented their for findings.
| lock-the-spock wrote:
| It doesn't seem like a stim, rather it's a biofeedback device.
| The YouTube video shows quite clearly how they are working
| toward the right 'curve' of muscle tension.
| jpollock wrote:
| The "Strengthening Exercises" for the soleus muscle would be a
| way to target it? Unless it needs a specific interval to get it
| into some sort of oxygen deficit or something?
|
| (From the linked page[1])
|
| Some exercises to strengthen your soleus may include:
|
| * Bent knee plantar flexion with a resistance band
|
| * Bent knee heel raises (as per the Alfredson protocol[2])
|
| * Seated calf raises
|
| Again, the bent knee position keeps your calf on slack and focus
| the workload on the soleus muscles of your lower legs.
|
| [1] https://www.verywellhealth.com/soleus-muscle-
| anatomy-4684082....
|
| [2] Alfredson Protocol: https://www.verywellhealth.com/the-
| alfredson-protocol-for-ac...
| DoingIsLearning wrote:
| > The "Strengthening Exercises" for the soleus muscle would be
| a way to target it? Unless it needs a specific interval to get
| it into some sort of oxygen deficit or something?
|
| They specifically perform a concentric contraction of the
| soleus _and_ "passive drop" of the heel.
|
| So without more detail of the paper it's difficult to tell but
| it seem that the benefit is in performing concentric
| contractions _without_ eccentric contractions of the soleus.
| elil17 wrote:
| At the end of the video, the researcher says that it's not as
| simple as just tapping your foot, you need some technology to
| isolate the motion. Could anyone with a better understanding of
| anatomy/muscles explain how that works and how they get people to
| perform this motion?
| ilaksh wrote:
| First, they get the university to publish an article making
| their claim seem credible.
|
| They then get an investor to give them $300,000 and make a
| custom order with a factory in China to add another piece of
| plastic and some branding to an existing device.
|
| They wait 3 months and then receive 30,000 "magic" gizmos in
| the mail.
|
| Then, they sell people a $250 electric muscle stimulator that
| you wear while sitting.
|
| Then they buy a really big new house. They live in a city in
| the United States though so after taxes and paying a few other
| people off, it barely even qualifies as a mansion.
|
| Probably aiming for something like this one
| https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/6503-Edloe-St-Houston-TX-...
| which is very nice, but his country club friends who are really
| rich will compare it to their guest houses.
|
| Fortunately they are almost done with the $59.99 app that
| tracks how much fat you are supposedly burning while you sit
| there for hours and your calfs twitch.
|
| I think this will sell very, very well. People are incredibly
| lazy and want to believe that not only do they not need to get
| off their fat ass, they don't need to move anything other than
| their feet and legs a few inches. Not only that, they don't
| even need the willpower to move on their own, and in fact it
| only works if they plug in to a device that does everything for
| them. Lol.
| yread wrote:
| This is very mean! But I did laugh out loud, thank you
| lock-the-spock wrote:
| If appears to be a biofeedback device, to help the individual
| learn the precise motion, rather than just "do something that
| looks like it".
| timothylaurent wrote:
| There's no way that isolating the soleus is somehow mysterious
| and out of reach of the common person.
|
| Just tell us what sort of activation is needed - how long should
| you do the exercise - we can manage to figure out if we're
| working our soleus.
| kazinator wrote:
| I think the soleus helps to pump blood. Flexing the soleus could
| be improving circulation, which is responsible for some of the
| allegedly observed effects.
|
| In Japanese there is a saying "hukurahagihaDi Er noXin Zang "
| (fukurahagi wa, dai-ni no shinzou: the calves are a second
| heart).
|
| Calf-io-vascular workout? Haha.
| gcau wrote:
| Having seen the video, it looks like the natural leg tapping
| motion literally everyone instinctively does when sitting down.
| andyjsong wrote:
| I've been known to pump my leg rapidly like in the video when
| I'm anxious. Maybe it's an involuntary artifact to "keep the
| engine running" just in case my flight senses are triggered.
| gcanyon wrote:
| I definitely don't do that tapping motion instinctively. Unless
| I'm actively _doing_ something, I am naturally still. Ten years
| ago I found out I have Factor V Leiden, which can cause blood
| clots. Since then I 've consciously tried to develop the habit
| of toe-tapping.
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