[HN Gopher] A long-haul flight with no breaks or meals: The godw...
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A long-haul flight with no breaks or meals: The godwit's epic
journey
Author : pseudolus
Score : 65 points
Date : 2022-09-20 20:59 UTC (2 days ago)
(HTM) web link (www.nytimes.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.nytimes.com)
| rwmj wrote:
| https://archive.ph/tJCAB
| robotresearcher wrote:
| > "The more I learn, the more amazing I find them," said Theunis
| Piersma, a professor of global flyway ecology. "They are a total
| evolutionary success."
|
| Amazing animals indeed, but the latter is a strangely
| unscientific thing for any kind of biologist to be quoted saying.
|
| I wonder if this is one of those journo-quotes:
|
| Journo: "Would you say these birds are a total evolutionary
| success?"
|
| Biologist: "Well, I wouldn't put it like that, but yes, they show
| an incredible adaptation ... <etc>"
|
| Journo: "Got it. Total evolutionary success."
| jononomo wrote:
| Yeah, the idea that they are a total evolutionary success only
| makes sense if you start by assuming that they must be a total
| evolutionary success. It makes just as much sense to say they
| are a brilliant example of intelligent design.
| robotresearcher wrote:
| The concept of 'total evolutionary success' doesn't really
| make any sense.
|
| The species is not extinct, but so is every other extant
| species. Maybe gene frequency is your success measure? There
| aren't many of this species around. Some of its genes are
| found in all birds, so those are pretty successful, but small
| beans compared to ant or algae genes. All these things
| probably have some respiration or protein synthesis genes in
| common. Maybe the success is with respect to their ecological
| niche? They fly really far! But everything lives in its own
| niche, and is the same amount of alive in it....
|
| Evolved things are not more or less successful, they just
| are.
| jononomo wrote:
| Shouldn't this be impossible just from the perspective of
| physics? Do these birds lose 90% of their body weight during this
| flight?
| moralestapia wrote:
| Air currents provide most of the flight's energy.
| jononomo wrote:
| Apparently they flap their wings for the entire trip.
|
| Also: "Their internal organs undergo a "strategic
| restructuring" before departure. The gizzards, kidneys,
| livers and guts shrink to lighten the load for the trans-
| Pacific journey. Pectoral muscles grow before takeoff to
| support the constant flapping the trip requires."
| jononomo wrote:
| "Other birds do stay aloft for long periods using a technique
| called "dynamic soaring," while godwits power themselves by
| continuous flapping, which takes far more energy."
| moralestapia wrote:
| Ok but still, air currents provide most of the flight's
| energy. Otherwise, as OP correctly pointed out, the physics
| don't make sense.
| Infernal wrote:
| At one point TFA seems to indicate they lose 50% of their
| weight, dropping from 2lbs to 1lbs.
| svnpenn wrote:
| True, but the AFT says they actually gain weight.
| jononomo wrote:
| Yes, this should be impossible -- scientists have no idea how
| they do it:
|
| "Current models say the birds should conk out after three or
| four days, yet they fly for more than a week. "We can't explain
| the physiology that allows them to do this," Dr. Guglielmo
| said. "We know what the energy costs should be from wind tunnel
| experiments, but when we try to use our models, the energy
| costs we know they used are much lower." The birds use half or
| less of the energy expected."
|
| "Are they going into a suspended animation state when they are
| doing these monster flights?" Dr. Guglielmo asked. "I don't
| think they are in a normal physiological state when they are
| doing this,"
| [deleted]
| frakt0x90 wrote:
| It reminds of that study recently that found dead troutcan
| still "swim" in water currents. Perhaps these birds have
| similarly incredible geometry that allow them to fly without
| exerting energy
|
| https://fyfluiddynamics.com/2018/07/when-i-was-a-child-my-
| fa...
| JTbane wrote:
| Thermals?
| cultofmetatron wrote:
| and here I thought Ryanair was expanding.
| smcin wrote:
| The advantage with the bird is that it doesn't constantly shill
| you duty-free and in-flight shopping.
| dang wrote:
| Related:
|
| _Wonder Bird Flies Thousands of Miles, Non-Stop, as Part of a
| Migration_ - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30054432 - Jan
| 2022 (2 comments)
|
| _The Hudsonian godwit flies thousands of miles, non-stop_ -
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29917581 - Jan 2022 (3
| comments)
|
| _Bar-tailed Godwits regularly travel more than 7,000 miles non-
| stop_ - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29225729 - Nov 2021
| (203 comments)
| hartator wrote:
| I thought for a minute it was new Ryanair product.
| focusedone wrote:
| Didn't know it was a bird - really thought this was going to be
| some epic travelog about the furthest one could fly using short-
| hop-no-snack flights.
| petesergeant wrote:
| If you count direct flights with stops (eg, it stops, but you
| stay on the plane), then the longest on an LCC is French Bee
| that'll take you from Paris to Papeete (Tahiti) via LA. Food
| not included on the Basic Fare, with a scheduled duration of
| 19:55 to fly 15,728 km.
| gambiting wrote:
| Apparently it stops in SF and the duration is 20h50m:
|
| https://www.frenchbee.com/en/destinations/tahiti-islands
| Infernal wrote:
| I'm really curious about the evolutionary path these birds may
| have taken to an adaptation that allows them to fly 8-10 days
| non-stop. A couple ideas, assuming that any change evolution can
| keep up with needs to be gradual/incremental:
|
| Could they have been making this journey since the land masses in
| question were significantly closer together?
|
| Could they have originally migrated between closer locations, but
| as weather warmed post-ice-age they slowly increased the length
| of migration between "temperate northern hemisphere" and
| "temperate southern hemisphere" climates?
|
| Could sea level rises post-ice-age have covered over islands that
| were formerly stopping points, or pushed back shorelines that
| effectively increased the distance required?
|
| Curious to hear what other ideas folks might have.
| jononomo wrote:
| I just asked the same question -- it would be interesting to
| see how long ago these land masses were close enough together
| and the rate at which they moved apart over time.
| freediver wrote:
| These kind of things bring tears to my eyes, not sure why. So
| little we know..
| jononomo wrote:
| How does this behavior evolve? Shrinking your internal organs and
| going into a zombie state for a 9-day flight seems like it would
| require the coordination of dozens of separate processes, and
| making it only 95% of the way means drowning in the ocean.
| Evolution works through tiny incremental changes, but this flight
| sounds like an all-or-nothing scenario.
| nerdponx wrote:
| I wonder if this evolved while ocean levels were lower, and the
| physical distances between chunks of land were shorter. And
| what if there were more islands along the way at some point?
| Also I wonder what % of godwits do actually fail along the way.
| I suspect that many "elderly" birds aren't able to make the
| trip.
| WalterBright wrote:
| Nomadic tribes would just leave behind the elderly who could
| no longer keep up.
| setr wrote:
| >Evolution works through tiny incremental changes, but this
| flight sounds like an all-or-nothing scenario.
|
| I never confirmed one way or the other, but I'm fairly positive
| evolution operates by large sudden changes followed by
| incremental improvements/optimizations -- it's difficult to
| explain many "weird" traits through incremental improvements,
| because most of them would get stuck in local maxima's before
| achieving any real benefit over the prior state.
|
| Like you can't evolve a third arm by slowly iterating towards
| it, from a lump to a stump to a limb to a functional limb; it'd
| be entirely a loss until it becomes fully functional. You have
| to grow a shitty yet complete third arm first, but not so
| shitty that it doesn't offer benefit, and then iteratively
| improve it into a pretty nice arm
| rdtwo wrote:
| Ha I thought it was a new airline
| ilrwbwrkhv wrote:
| Probably Canadian.
| [deleted]
| xwdv wrote:
| I wonder if any small insects have learned to hitch a ride in the
| feathers of these birds in order to reach far away lands. I guess
| their lifespan wouldn't allow for such a long journey unless
| perhaps they went into some kind of hibernation.
| rvba wrote:
| Are the scientists sure that the birds dont catch some fish? (I
| guess salt water cpuld be a problem)
| texaslonghorn5 wrote:
| Cool! Here's a link
| https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/how-migrating-bir...
| explaining the magnetic sensing capabilities of the birds a
| little more in depth!
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(page generated 2022-09-22 23:01 UTC)