[HN Gopher] Of Dharma and Doom: A translation revives the ending...
___________________________________________________________________
Of Dharma and Doom: A translation revives the ending of the
Mahabharata
Author : drdee
Score : 52 points
Date : 2022-09-20 04:40 UTC (1 days ago)
(HTM) web link (theamericanscholar.org)
(TXT) w3m dump (theamericanscholar.org)
| morbidious wrote:
| "By calling the writers of the Vedas as nomads Doniger has shown
| her contempt for the Vedas and the Hindu religion, as she has
| done in many other places in her book."
|
| "She writes that the nomads who wrote the Vedas were immigrants
| from Europe, who brought the Indo-European language Sanskrit with
| them to India"
|
| So-called intellectual.
|
| https://indiafacts.org/wendy-donigers-hindus/
| dang wrote:
| Please don't take HN threads into religious or nationalistic
| flamewar, or any kind of flamewar.
|
| If you want to have a curious conversation about translation
| and scholarship--great. But importing pre-existing flamewar
| talking points into HN threads is definitely not that, and is
| against the site guidelines:
| https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html.
|
| (Needless to say, I have no view on the relative reliability of
| Sanskrit scholars. This is purely about the sort of comment we
| do and don't want on this website.)
| KrishnaShripad wrote:
| That is exactly what I find so inconsistent about the Aryan
| Invasion Theory. If the Aryans did indeed immigrate from Europe
| to India, why did Aryans in India invent the Brahmi numerals
| (which eventually became the Hindu Numeral System, and when
| Arabs came in contact with Indian Mathematicians transported it
| to Europe) while Europe had dumbed down Roman numerals for
| centuries? Why was no Vedic Knowledge or Sanskrit left behind
| by these Steppe nomads? I don't recall even a single instance
| of any migratory group not leaving behind any trace of
| Knowledge of their culture/traditions in their native lands.
| morbidious wrote:
| There's a good video on it: https://youtu.be/UgLXAQWf_EE
| programmer_dude wrote:
| Here's a better video:
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NQX5LlJ7YXg
| morbidious wrote:
| The video says OIT is probable
| programmer_dude wrote:
| I have seen Abhijit's video, it lacks merit. The video I
| linked shows why Abhijit's take on this subject is
| untenable. Yes, this video was created in response to
| Abhijit's video and addresses it directly. OIT is
| improbable.
| bergenty wrote:
| The only thing incorrect here is that Sanskrit is a syncretic
| language created in India through influences from Central Asia
| and the local languages. There are many words even in the rig
| Veda without any central Asian influence.
| N1H1L wrote:
| Read the whole link. Nothing about the article shared here, and
| the points made are really half-baked and highly debatable.
| [deleted]
| swayvil wrote:
| c54 wrote:
| Oddly, the initial image caption in the piece states that there's
| a battle between Arjuna and Krishna. This is a mistake, Arjuna (a
| Pandava) and Krishna (an incarnated form of the god Vishnu)
| fought together against the Kauravas, with Krishna serving as
| Arjuna's charioteer.
|
| I'm sure this is just a mistake on the part of the editor, there
| are a lot of names in the Mahabharat, and we're not really
| exposed to the stories in the west. I'd be really excited to see
| some TV recreations of the Mahabharat. It's really quite an
| astounding story and there's a lot of good content there, so to
| speak.
|
| It's very similar to the Odyssey for those who've read that. Full
| of little parables and stories with archetypal meanings, exactly
| as the article discusses
| itsbits wrote:
| Arjuna and Krishna fought before Mahabharat when Krishna's
| brother Balarama ordered Krishna to do so.
| KrishnaShripad wrote:
| No they did not. Just one of many incorrect translations by
| Western Indologists. Note that I am being very polite in
| calling it "incorrect translations" as it borders malice.
|
| In fact, in the Mahabharata itself, while Lord Krishna
| addresses the dead Parikshit (when he was killed by the
| Brahmastra while being in the womb of Uttara) he states that
| there has never been a conflict/misunderstanding between
| himself and Arjuna (also called Vijaya). Forget a fight. He
| then grants life to Parikshit by saying the following words
| (Sanskrit transliteration and English translation from Kisar
| Mohan Ganguli's Mahabharata):
|
| yathA me dayito dharmo brAhmaNAshcha visheShataH | abhimanyoH
| suto jAto mRRito jIvatvayaM tathA || 20||
|
| yathAhaM nAbhijAnAmi vijayena kadAchana | virodhaM tena
| satyena mRRito jIvatvayaM shishuH || 21||
|
| yathA satyaM cha dharmashcha mayi nityaM pratiShThitau |
| tathA mRRitaH shishurayaM jIvatAmabhimanyujaH || 22||
|
| "Having sat up, the daughter of the king of the Matsyas,
| summoning her patience, joined her hands in reverence and
| touched the earth with her head for saluting Kesava of eyes
| like the petals of the lotus. That foremost of beings,
| hearing those heart-rending lamentations of hers, touched
| water and withdrew the (force of the) Brahma-weapon. That
| hero of unfading glory, belonging to the race of the
| Dasarhas, promised to give the child his life. Then he of
| pure soul, said these words in the hearing of the whole
| universe,--'O Uttara, I never utter an untruth.
|
| My words will prove true. I shall revive this child in the
| presence of all creatures. Never before have I uttered an
| untruth even in jest. Never have I turned back from battle.
| (By the merit of those acts) let this child revive! As
| righteousness is dear to me, as Brahmanas are specially dear
| to me, (by the merit of that disposition of mine) let
| Abhimanyu's son, who is born dead, revive! Never hath a
| misunderstanding arisen between me and my friend Vijaya. Let
| this dead child revive by that truth! As truth and
| righteousness are always established in me, let this dead
| child of Abhimanyu revive (by the merit of these)! As Kansa
| and Kesi have been righteously slain by me, let this child
| revive today by that truth!' After these words were uttered
| by Vasudeva, that child, O foremost one of Bharata's race,
| became animate and began gradually to move, O monarch."
|
| [1]: https://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/m14/m14069.htm
| lioeters wrote:
| User name checks out. :) Joking aside, thank you for the
| correction.
|
| > Never hath a misunderstanding arisen between me and my
| friend Vijaya.
|
| I did learn that there's a 19th-century play called
| Gayopakhyanam, where they _almost_ fight.
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gayopakhyanam
| KrishnaShripad wrote:
| > User name checks out. :) Joking aside, thank you for
| the correction.
|
| Haha no issues!
|
| > I did learn that there's a 19th-century play called
| Gayopakhyanam, where they almost fight.
|
| Yes there are many Sthala Puranas that have their own
| variations/additions to the main storyline. Which is why
| we stick to the oldest manuscripts that are available as
| we do not know if/when distortions happened as this story
| spans multiple thousands of years.
|
| We have sadly also lost scriptures to invasions.
| Especially with the burning of Nalanda University (by
| Muhammad Bakhtiyar Khalji: by some estimates, 9 million
| scriptures were destroyed) and Takshashila University (by
| Persians, Greeks, Parthians, Hephthalites, Shakas and
| Kushanas) though Alexander and future Greeks revived the
| University again in partnership with Chandragupta Maurya.
| Hepthalites were most destructive of the lot. Both these
| Universities contained tomes of Dharmic
| scriptures/manuscripts (both Buddhist and Hindu).
|
| Nalanda supposedly burned for 3 months.
| lioeters wrote:
| Fascinating to learn about Nalanda and Takshashila
| University.
|
| About the latter ("considered to be one of the earliest
| universities in the world") and the revival of the
| university - I recently started reading a book called,
| The Shape of Ancient Thought: Comparative Studies in
| Greek and Indian Philosophies. I'm interested in learning
| about the influence of Buddhism on Greek (and later
| European) philosophy. I know almost nothing about the
| history of India, so it's been a fun educational journey.
|
| The name of Chandragupta Maurya I hadn't heard before,
| but I see he is an important historical figure, the
| grandfather of Ashoka. And they're said to be from the
| Shakya family from which Gautama Buddha descended.
|
| I've enjoyed your other thoughtful comments in this
| thread, even the controversial one criticising the
| "deliberately mistranslated" scriptures. I don't know the
| truth of the matter, but perhaps the translators simply
| lacked understanding? And I can see that some words are
| impossible to translate, with so much meaning lost or
| wrongly transformed in the process.
|
| Anyway, thanks for sharing your knowledge and
| perspective. Especially this comment (
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32929993 ) was very
| thought-provoking, one of my favorite comments ever on
| this forum.
| KrishnaShripad wrote:
| > About the latter ("considered to be one of the earliest
| universities in the world") and the revival of the
| university - I recently started reading a book called,
| The Shape of Ancient Thought: Comparative Studies in
| Greek and Indian Philosophies. I'm interested in learning
| about the influence of Buddhism on Greek (and later
| European) philosophy. I know almost nothing about the
| history of India, so it's been a fun educational journey.
|
| There is a lot of interconnect between Ancient Greek and
| Ancient Indian civilizations. Even when it comes to
| Demigods we have lots of similarities. Mostly because we
| interacted a lot (in spite of the Wars that we fought
| with each other, we eventually began to respect each
| others Civilizations more deeply). But with the fall of
| these Ancient Civilizations much of that relations that
| were built was lost. In a way, Dharmic Religions are the
| oldest surviving Religions... or dare I say oldest
| surviving Ancient Civilizations.
|
| One of my biggest gripes with Western Indologists is that
| they classified Sanatan Dharma/Hinduism as Polytheist.
| Which is actually far from the Truth. We have only 1 God
| (the Brahman of the Vedas -- the Supreme Being) with many
| Demigods (Devatas). Now depending on the school of
| Vedanta one follows, there are multiple interpretations
| of what God is (is God an independent entity --
| Tattvavada/Dvaita, we are all part of one God --
| Vishishtadvaita or I am God -- Advaita). Yet all of it
| just boils down to either Monism or Monotheism. Not
| Polytheism. But as usual, the latter has stuck on due to
| wrong translations and will take a long time for it to be
| fixed.
|
| Buddhism and Jainism on the other hand fall under
| Charvaka Philosophy. Charvakas deny the Supremacy of the
| Vedas as they believe in empirical evidence, direct
| perception alone. So even though we all come under the
| same umbrella term of "Dharmic Religions" there is a
| fundamental difference between both, which goes by the
| terminologies: Astika (Vedic) and Nastika (non-Vedic).
|
| > The name of Chandragupta Maurya I hadn't heard before,
| but I see he is an important historical figure, the
| grandfather of Ashoka. And they're said to be from the
| Shakya family from which Gautama Buddha descended.
|
| Yes you are right. Chandragupta Maurya was the Emperor of
| Ancient India and the founder of the Mauryan Empire.
| Emperor Ashoka is his descendent.
|
| > I don't know the truth of the matter, but perhaps the
| translators simply lacked understanding?
|
| This is a long story but it ties heavily to Evalengelical
| Christian Missionaries and providing them a fodder by
| misinterpreting many of the scriptures incorrectly (many
| Missionaries here use these translated scriptures to fool
| the local populace). It then becomes really easy to coax
| local populace in India (typically the lower castes), who
| due to various unfortunate circumstances (including
| discrimination they were subjected to in the past by
| upper castes, coupled with their own economic
| conditions), weren't versed in Sanskrit, to convert to
| Christianity or other Abrahamic Religions.
|
| I have no issues with people converting as that is their
| individual preference/right but I don't want wrongly
| translated scriptures to be used as fodder for such
| conversions. I am more worried about these translations
| gaining a life of its own and cementing itself as the
| true translations winning over actual translations that
| was passed down through generations by our Ancestors. I
| want to preserve this culture/tradition as I feel it
| holds value to people on Earth and for future generations
| to research/introspect/learn from. Irrespective of
| whether they find value in it or not. Irrespective of
| whether it is perfect, faulty or downright nonsense. It
| should be looked at as preservation of Ancient
| Culture/Traditions and not be lost in the annals of Time.
|
| Also, wrong translations builds animosity between groups.
| People here are converting not out of some profound
| wisdom or philosophical enlightenment but out of a hatred
| for the Religion they belonged to. This sort of
| brainwashing is going on every single day in India.
|
| Very few who bothered to do their own independent
| research and figure out that the translations are wrong
| reconvert back.
|
| This is not healthy for a society IMHO. Especially if
| conversions are forced or happen out of
| misinformation/animosity, it just ends up creating bad
| blood, regrets (once you realize you have been taken for
| a ride) and even divisiveness leading to communal rifts.
|
| So I see it as my moral duty to set things right when I
| see wrong translations. Even if the World is against me.
| And I know I am not alone in this endeavour.
|
| > Especially this comment (
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32929993 ) was very
| thought-provoking, one of my favorite comments ever on
| this forum.
|
| Thank you so much for your kind words! Means a lot!
| jharohit wrote:
| One of the quintessential TV recreations
| https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLa6CHPhFNfadNcnVZRXa6...
| naruvimama wrote:
| b800h wrote:
| I think that used to be on Saturday morning TV in the UK in
| the 80s.
|
| Edit: 1991 apparently.
| seshagiric wrote:
| Mahabharata is an epic story. I really wish someone would
| make a movie with latest CGI.
| DesiLurker wrote:
| I really want George RR Martin (GoT) & HBO to make a modern
| series based on Mahabharat. there are so many interesting
| threads & political clashes in it that it would make an
| awesome watch.
| lordleft wrote:
| It's a truly extraordinary epic, and it propounds fascinating
| philosophical and religious concepts that are worth reckoning
| with. Also, as a non-hindu desi, it's interesting to see how
| many of the conceits of the Gita / Mahabharata subtly shape
| South Asian life.
| drieddust wrote:
| addingadimensio wrote:
| mpreda wrote:
| "Lord of Light" by Roger Zelazny is a Science-Fiction novel using
| Hinduism/Buddhist philosophy as background in an intriguing way.
|
| _His followers called him Mahasamatman and said he was a god. He
| preferred to drop the Maha- and the -atman, however, and called
| himself Sam. He never claimed to be a god, but then he never
| claimed not to be a god._
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lord_of_Light
| nsenifty wrote:
| This article makes it seem that the new translation is novel in
| some way. These are stories (of Krishna's demise and Pandavas
| hike to Meru) I've read in childhood countless times. Mahabharata
| isn't just an epic of absolute good vs. evil, but of countless
| shades of grey ascribing to the real human nature.
|
| In another story, it is said that Yudhishtira's chariot was
| supposed to not touch the ground due to his virtuousness. When he
| lied to his guru Drona to trick him to give up his arm believing
| his son had perished, the chariot sunk back to the ground.
| KrishnaShripad wrote:
| Can we get over the love for Western Indologists who have, time
| and again, deliberately mistranslated our Dharmic scriptures?
|
| In particular: Wendy Doniger, Sheldon Pollock and their ilk. An
| example [1] and the complete talk [2]
|
| [1]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G2ke7Higm-Y
|
| [2]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=olQlPZuEWLY
| Issaclabs wrote:
| Her translations are ignorant at best and malicious at worst.
| Not a serious academic
| https://swarajyamag.com/longform/a-critique-of-wendy-doniger...
| KrishnaShripad wrote:
| Exactly.
| dominotw wrote:
| I went to one of her talks at my yoga studio here in chicago.
| I googled her later to find out how much of a controversial
| figure she was.
| kranner wrote:
| Do you have an example of a specific _deliberate_
| mistranslation by, let's say, Wendy Doniger?
| KrishnaShripad wrote:
| Sure. You can check the article here with translations of few
| stanzas from Shatapatha Brahamana:
| https://indiafacts.org/the-world-of-wendy-donigers-
| translati...
|
| Even the translation by J. Eggeling is not completely
| accurate because Sanskrit has a lot of words that are non-
| translatables because of inherent weakness of English as a
| language (which includes limited vocabulary to describe
| Sanskrit words accurately) [1].
|
| Irrespective of Eggeling's translation not being completely
| accurate, it atleast was a decent attempt. She references him
| but totally twists the translations to make it sexualized in
| a lot of places. The actual scripture is not at all depicting
| what is translated by her in the end.
|
| [1]: To understand why English is not accurate enough to
| describe Sanskrit vocabulary, this video will shed complete
| light: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a7XYCNbLtPQ
| kranner wrote:
| The video cited claims at 8:55 that the English word
| "student" comes from the Sanskrit words "stuti" (a text
| containing learning, according to the video) and "anta"
| (the final goal, according to the video). This is WhatsApp-
| level misinformation. "Student" is related to Latin
| "studere" which means diligent application to a task.
| "Stuti" (from the Proto Indo Aryan root stu-) primarily
| means praise, but can also mean by extension a song
| containing such praise, or a text containing such songs.
| "Student" and "stuti" are not cognates. Student != stuti +
| anta. After this point the video is not worth watching.
|
| Ironically, this video which claims to prove that you can't
| express in English everything that you can express in
| Sanskrit is itself in English. Sanskrit non-translatables
| are a myth. Yes, individual English words don't map 1:1 to
| individual Sanskrit words. This is the case for any two
| lects. That doesn't mean you can't use a sequence of words
| in English to describe all possible connotations of a word
| in Sanskrit, unless English didn't even contain words for
| the _concepts_ underlying the connotations of this Sanskrit
| word. If that had actually been the case, Rajiv Malhotra
| would have had to write his book Sanskrit Non-Translatables
| _in Sanskrit_ , and not in English as he actually did.
| KrishnaShripad wrote:
| > Yes, individual English words don't map 1:1 to
| individual Sanskrit words
|
| That is exactly why words of Sanskrit are "non-
| translatables". Because not all words map 1:1. Please
| look up the meaning of "non-translatables". Whenever
| there is no mapping 1:1 that word is called a "non-
| translatable". It does not mean what you think it means.
| I'll explain below.
|
| > Rajiv Malhotra would have had to write his book
| Sanskrit Non-Translatables in Sanskrit, and not in
| English as he actually did.
|
| "Non-translatables" does not mean the word cannot be
| translated. It means that there is no equivalent word in
| English, necessitating one to provide a lot of extra
| explanations to convey the meaning. For example, let us
| assume that there was no word called "Sun" in the English
| Dictionary. Then to translate "Surya" you would have to
| put extra effort in translating it by saying: "see that
| spherical ball of light that is emanating a glow and
| lighting up the sky? It is a Star which looks different
| from Stars in the night sky due to proximity to our
| Planet as well as the fact that our Planet is revolving
| around it. That object is Surya". Now this is a non-
| translatable as there is no direct 1:1 mapping.
|
| So if the translation of Surya is inaccurate (say the
| translator describes it as a bulb in your room -- which
| is also a shining ball of light) it ruins the entire
| translation.
|
| You can read the definition of non-translatable here [1].
|
| [1]: https://www.trustedtranslations.com/blog/non-
| translatable
|
| As far as the video is concerned, yeah even he gets some
| of it wrong (like in the example you rightly pointed out
| about Stuti/Student). But this was the only video I could
| find that explained in English as I had assumed you are
| an English speaker (from the West). It sort of explained
| why some words cannot be translated.
|
| Like one non-translatable is Aatma. Aatma in rudimentary
| sense is just "Soul". But which "Soul" is this? The
| Abrahamic definition of Soul? Then that is not what Aatma
| is in Sanatan Dharma. Heck, even in Sanatan Dharma, there
| are various interpretations of Aatma based on the school
| of Vedanta you follow (Advaita, Vishishtadvaita,
| Tattvavada/Dvaita etc). In Advaita/Monism, Aatma is
| single entity pervading the entire Creation, both within
| and outside, and the Creation itself is Maya/Illusion
| whereby the Aatman = Brahman (God). So in essence, there
| is no difference between God and you as whatever
| perceived difference you have is an illusion. In
| Vishishtadvaita, Aatma is divided into infinitesimal
| parts with all parts eventually combining to form a
| whole. The Creation is not an Illusion in
| Vishishtadvaita. But since ultimately, all Aatmas combine
| into one Brahman, it becomes Advaita in the end. So it is
| Vishishtadvaita (Qualified Monism). Then you have
| Tattvavada/Dvaita which states that Aatmas are separate
| entities yet completely dependent on the Brahman (God).
| The size of the Aatmas is defined as 1/1000th of 1/1000th
| of the thinnest strand of hair on a horse. Jains have a
| different definition of Aatma: where the size of the
| Aatma is equal to the size of the body that it occupies.
| Buddhists do not believe in Aatma's existence at all. So
| as you can see, each Dharmic school has its own
| interpretation and explanation for what an Aatma is. But
| when we discuss about Aatma within the schools, we
| automatically know what is being talked about: the
| indestructive, immortal part of what makes a inanimate
| object animate. Now this is not equal to the definition
| of Abrahamic soul (from my understanding of Abrahamic
| texts: that God breathed the life-force/soul into
| Creatures). In Sanatan Dharma, God does no such thing.
| The Aatmas are literally immortal with no beginning or
| end. And depending on the school of thought you follow,
| the Aatma is just one entity or many or none at all.
|
| So which definition will you use for translation?
| Invariably, Western Indologists use the rudimentary
| Abrahamic definition "Soul". It is incomplete. And hence
| is non-translatable.
|
| It does not mean you cannot translate at all. It just
| means there is no 1:1 mapping because of lack of
| vocabulary in the language that you are translating the
| word into.
| rajup wrote:
| This link lays out a few (from a comment further below):
| https://swarajyamag.com/longform/a-critique-of-wendy-
| doniger...
| kranner wrote:
| No evidence is presented for the purported mistranslations
| (of pretty subjective things to start with) as
| _deliberate_. You'd have to show that Wendy Doniger knew
| what e.g. the painting actually represented, for a fact,
| and still published information differing from this
| position in some way. It's possible to be sincere but
| misinformed.
| rajup wrote:
| Maybe she was sincere and misinformed but the article
| points out how this might be misinformed, I don't see any
| disagreement?
| drieddust wrote:
| uptownfunk wrote:
| I don't get why you're getting the hate here. This is a known
| issue, and I don't see how censoring you from discussing it is
| going to help. You are not being disrespectful and are
| providing sources and facts to back you up. Meanwhile reddit
| like "funny" comments are left here but having a debate on
| mistranslation by western scholarship is some how deemed to be
| a flamewar. This is a disappointing direction to see HN going
| down.
| KrishnaShripad wrote:
| I'm not even going to argue with Dang as I don't want to get
| banned over this. I'm used to this bias in all social
| platforms. It's not new to me. Cancel culture is the norm. If
| you are a square peg in a round hole you will be cast out.
| Unfortunate reality. Anyways I am happy atleast I have some
| support here from others who see it for what it is.
| uptownfunk wrote:
| We used to be able to have data driven civil conversations.
| Well folks, getting to the truth isn't easy or comfortable
| and sometimes feelings will get hurt. But is that a reason
| to shy away from the truth?
| unmole wrote:
| I don't have any sympathy for Wendy Doniger but Rajiv Malhotra
| is hardly the beacon of truth. The man spins utterly deranged
| conspiracy theories:
| https://www.reddit.com/r/badlinguistics/comments/2t8ze3/a_fe...
| KrishnaShripad wrote:
| There is no conspiracy theory in here. Like let me break
| apart the topic for the lazy ones.
|
| > "FeTNA is a US-based Tamil diaspora organization that
| finances Tamil chair in Berkeley and acted as a vehicle for
| ethno-political separatism, with links to the Tamil Tigers.
| It supports the Christianization of Tamil culture and offers
| a doorway into Indian politics for right-wing evangelican
| American politicians and western geo-political strategists."
|
| > His sources for these claims? His ass.
|
| WTF? FeTNA has advocated for LTTE (Tamil Tigers) many times.
| It is openly pro-LTTE. You can check the FeTNA resolution
| here: http://www.sangam.org/TVOICE/tvFall95.htm#ftna
|
| Let me quote some lines from the resolution:
|
| 1. "D. The Sri Lankan governments propaganda that the Tamil
| freedom fighters (LTTE) unilaterally broke the peace process
| is totally and completely false."
|
| 2. "We say that the Tamil people have the right to determine
| their own future. If any attempt is made to impose an
| arbitrary political settlement on the Tamil people through
| military means, the LTTE will resist it."
|
| Stopped reading after this point. His very first quote that
| FeTNA has no association with LTTE is a big lie.
|
| Another article on FeTNA [3]:
|
| "Also, the coordinator was against converting the convention
| into yet another pro-LTTE forum where India bashing would go
| on unabated as in the past conventions and put his foot down
| that irritated the trio.
|
| Last year, the Government of India abruptly cancelled the
| Indian visa of Dr. Muthuvel Chelliah, a naturalized US
| citizen for his continuous anti-India tirade and support to
| banned anti-Indian organizations that perpetrate violence and
| terrorism. He has filed a case against the Home Ministry in
| the High Court of Madras pleading that his Indian visa be
| restored so that he can meet his aged mother in Tamil Nadu.
| Support to Tamil Eelam and LTTE have been the undeclared
| agenda of Fetna in the past and member associations who do
| not subscribe to its views were either reprimanded or
| removed.
|
| Various pro-Eelam leaders such as New York based Rudra
| Kumaran, "Prime Minister" of Transnational Government of
| Tamil Eelam (TGTE), a government in exile of Tamil Eelams; Dr
| Elyn Shandler, a fiery pro-LTTE speaker and Jewish-American
| rabble rouser who was also denied Indian visa for her anti-
| India rhetoric and Professor Francis Boyle who advocates
| Tamil Eelam were regular speakers every year at Fetna annual
| conventions and prime time were allotted to their fiery
| speeches much against the wishes of Indian Tamils. This year
| the coordinator Balagan wanted to downplay the pro-LTTE image
| of Fetna that did not go well with the pro-Eelam supporters
| who were gunning for his head. Finally Balagan secured
| majority support and those opposed him were forced to quit.
| Vice President Dr Dhandapani Kuppuswamy was chosen as interim
| president and elections were called for to choose new set of
| office bearers."
|
| And as far as forced conversions to Christianity, it is
| extremely rampant in Tamil Nadu [1]. I am from the
| neighboring state of Telangana which is equally affected by
| this malaise [2].
|
| [1]: https://www.firstpost.com/politics/christian-conversion-
| mafi...
|
| [2]: https://www.opindia.com/2022/05/tamil-nadu-hindu-woman-
| tries...
|
| [3]: https://www.thefreelibrary.com/Fetna+President+Pazhani+S
| unda...
| dang wrote:
| Your account has swerved back towards using HN primarily
| for political/ideological/nationalistic/religious battle.
| We ban accounts that do this because it's not what this
| site is for, and it destroys what it is for.
|
| If you keep doing this, we're going to have to ban you
| again--not because we disagree with your positions (I don't
| know what they are, and it doesn't matte) but because
| you're breaking the intended use of the site.
|
| If you'd please review
| https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and stick
| to the rules when posting here, we'd appreciate it.
| dang wrote:
| Please don't take HN threads into religious or nationalistic
| flamewar, or any kind of flamewar.
|
| If you want to have a curious conversation about translation
| and scholarship--great. But importing pre-existing flamewar
| talking points into HN threads is definitely not that, and is
| against the site guidelines:
| https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html.
|
| Needless to say, I have no view on the relative accuracy of
| Mahabharata translations. But I know HN threads and I know
| internet flamebait when I see it. No more of this, please.
|
| Please see https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32927390 also.
| aicaffeinelife wrote:
| I think you're missing the point here. It's a flame war if
| and only if there are two perspectives and it comes down to a
| matter of choice (e.g Vim vs EMacs). The majority of the
| commenters here are pointing out to the fact that some
| Western academics either deliberately or ignorantly
| mistranslate Sanskrit and to a person who has no background
| in this stuff often form an incorrect or incomplete picture
| which then leads to a positive/negative bias in their minds.
| dang wrote:
| It's a flamewar comment when a commenter uses denunciatory
| tropes and ready-to-go polemical links on a classic
| flamewar topic. When an account has a history of
| prosecuting nationalistic and religious flamewar, that goes
| 100x. Sometimes the account is even one in a sequence of
| accounts that we've had to ban for this in the past.
|
| I'm not asking anyone to submit to colonial dogmas here--
| just to abide by the site guidelines when making their
| substantive points.
|
| https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
| rajup wrote:
| I don't quite understand how this is "ideological flamebait".
| The posted article is about translations of Indian epics
| through a Western lens. Op here pointed out possible issues
| with such translations, one I am glad to be informed about
| and will look out for. If this is not curious conversation I
| don't know what is.
| dang wrote:
| I've answered this in another reply:
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32931098.
| rajup wrote:
| Thanks Dan! I do see how the examples you mention in the
| other reply could be problematic and lead to the
| discourse taking an unsavory turn.
| uptownfunk wrote:
| Yes this seems a bit reactive. This wasn't going into a
| flame war. How have we become so soft to react so strongly
| to topics like this. The shortcomings and criticism of
| Western scholarship has a long and storied history - this
| isn't something new.
| dang wrote:
| You guys seem to be under the impression that I'm taking
| a side on this topic. Nothing could be further from the
| case. I know nothing about it, and for all I know you're
| all 100% correct. (Also, lest anyone assume otherwise, I
| have profound respect for India.)
|
| Even if they're 100% correct*, commenters still have to
| follow the site guidelines. Showing up with an obviously
| pre-existing agenda, ready-to-go talking points, and
| denunciatory rhetoric is definitely not curious
| conversation. Moreover, HN has a problem with Indian
| nationalist flamewars (as it does with other nationalist
| flamewars), quite vicious ones in fact, and I
| unfortunately have had to moderate enough of them to
| recognize the pattern when I see it.
|
| * ( _especially_ if they 're 100% correct, since that is
| what everyone feels about their own views in any case)
| KrishnaShripad wrote:
| Dear Dang,
|
| Thanks for the clarification. You are right and I'll try
| to tone it down.
|
| > HN has a problem with Indian nationalist flamewars (as
| it does with other nationalist flamewars), quite vicious
| ones in fact, and I unfortunately have had to moderate
| enough of them to recognize the pattern when I see it.
|
| The reason probably has to do with Indian voices being
| shut down by the Western academia and Western media (both
| play a big role in the conditioning) which ends up with
| Indians like me (and many others like me) who come with
| pitchforks in discussions with people who do not have
| such intentions. I recognize that and will work on it.
|
| So yes you are right that Indians, off late, have become
| extremely passionate about certain causes: be it
| defending Hinduism/Sanatan Dharma or Nationalistic
| viewpoints (India in general). Please understand that
| this is reactionary to what we have witnessed/subjected
| to over years if not decades of being exposed to
| brainwashing by Western academia and media. It was only
| recently that we have started to look into our own
| history without the corrupted lens of the Colonial powers
| that modified/changed/rewrote/distorted many portions of
| our historical past (as they say, Victors write History).
| That anger at being fooled for so long is what is driving
| the under current of Nationalism today.
|
| We are beginning to stand up for what we believe in to be
| right (whether that is accepted by the rest of the World
| or not is immaterial at this point). We have kept quiet
| and not spoken out against misinformation or
| mischaracterization of our people for all these years
| with a hope that it will change. It sadly hasn't
| happened.
|
| However, you are not wrong in that Indians are generally
| extremely passionate (which wasn't the case some 20 years
| back). It will cool down over time I am sure of that. But
| do give us some leeway to express ourselves (even if we
| make mistakes) as sometimes we just need an outlet.
|
| Thanks for your clarification and understanding.
| uptownfunk wrote:
| You implicitly take a side by shutting down discussion
| that criticizes western indological research under the
| pre-tense of "I... recognize the pattern when I see it."
| This may be controversial, but if you don't let others
| voice their views, then you let the predominating opinion
| retain its influence.
|
| I recognize moderation is required but I was genuinely
| engaging with someone's viewpoint curiously. It is not
| frequent you come across someone here that is conversant
| with tattvavAda philosophy of MadhvacArya - doesn't seem
| acceptable to shut them down, especially given the
| history of colonial influence in India and throughout the
| world.
|
| These countries are finally now finding their voice after
| centuries of occupation, and it seems quite harsh to shut
| down that down on the basis of flamewars. Ultimately you
| probably have more experience on this topic so will
| ultimately defer to your judgement and authority but
| wanted to share another POV.
| dang wrote:
| > _You implicitly take a side by shutting down discussion
| that_
|
| By that argument, all moderation is "implicitly taking a
| side", in which case we might as well have no rules at
| all.
| uptownfunk wrote:
| Well that's a bit of a leap, but I still stand by that
| content moderation can lead to a bias in the
| conversation. But judging by the downvote people seem to
| disagree.
| naruvimama wrote:
| dartharva wrote:
| You should also provide links to better or more "authentic"
| translations then, because any curious individual will find
| these first upon rudimentary searching.
| KrishnaShripad wrote:
| You are right that links to better translations are what I
| should link to. However, even here, you should be mindful
| that translations of Dharmic scriptures are tied to
| Philosophical schools of thought (or Schools of Vedanta). So
| if you are asking me to give you a link I would have to give
| you links to Tattvavada (which is the school of Vedanta I
| follow). However, there are translations provided by Advaita
| and Vishishtadvaita (and other sub-schools) that differ
| slightly in their interpretations and I'll be doing
| disservice to them by not linking their work too. So
| eventually you will end up with having to learn under a
| learned Guru anyways. And you won't find Gurus who are well
| versed in their concepts in the Western academia at the very
| least. You will have to travel to India and explore the
| various Mathas (study centers) and figure out which
| Philosophy appeals to you. This is purely because Sanatan
| Dharma is not Dogmatic like Western Religions. Here you have
| the choice to choose your path. You have Monism in the form
| of Shankara's Advaita, Qualified Monism of Ramanuja's
| Vishshitadvaita to Dualism of Madhva's Tattvavada. All 3
| schools (these are primary schools with many sub-schools with
| subtle differences from the main school they branch out from)
| differ in their interpretations significantly when it comes
| to answering few broad philosophical questions:
|
| 1. Who am I? Do I really exist or am I an illusion?
|
| 2. What is this Creation? Is this real or an illusion?
|
| 3. What is Time?
|
| 4. Is there a Creator? Or is there none?
|
| 5. If there is a Creator then what is the relationship
| between me and the Creator?
|
| 6. Are we many individual Aatmas with each having separate,
| distinct reality or one Aatma living in an illusion that it
| is separate, distinct reality?
|
| All these Philosophical questions derive from the Vedic
| scriptures viz: Vedas, Upanishads, Brahma Sutras, Bhagavad
| Gita, Mahabharata, Ramayana and the Puranas. The
| Philosophical Schools (or schools of Vedanta) have spent
| thousands of years researching on these fundamental
| Philosophical questions. To point a link to an authentic
| translation is hence a very difficult task: for one, there
| are very few and far between. Two: it is a mammoth
| undertaking to translate the entire corpus of literature that
| has accumulated in Sanskrit over the past thousands of years.
| Three: most of the English translations from Indian
| Indologists exist only for one school: Advaita. Other schools
| haven't been translated yet (though for Tattvavada there is
| translation now available in the form of 37 Sarvamoola
| Granthas of Madhvacharya -- the founder of the Tattvavada
| school of Vedanta).
|
| The problem also is that Sanskrit has a lot of "non-
| translatable" words. There is no such "authentic" translation
| as when you "translate" you will have to find meanings that
| fit the language you are translating into which eventually
| leads to dumbing down the translation as the vocabulary is
| not sufficient to describe the Sanskrit word.
|
| For example, most Western Indologists wrongly translate Aatma
| as "Soul". However, what is Soul exactly? It has Religious
| connotations attributed and inline with Abrahamic
| interpretations of what a Soul is which is not what Aatma is
| in Sanatan Dharma.
|
| What is Dharma in English? Most Western Indologists
| incorrectly translate it as "Religion" (or some use the
| slightly better term "Righteousness"). But Dharma is not
| Religion at all. It is "Eternal Truth" (hence is called
| Sanatan Dharma) that is based on concepts of "Righteousness"
| and "Duties" tightly interwoven into the "Karmic cycle". It
| is not Dogmatic in any way, shape or form. There are no
| "Commandments".
|
| What is Karma in English? "Every action has an equal and
| opposite reaction"? Nope. That is just rudimentary
| translation of what Karma is. Because in this translation,
| there is an expectation that the Karmic result would happen
| immediately or within a short period of time. However, in
| Sanatan Dharma, Karma spans not just one lifetime but
| infinite lifetimes. The Karmic cycle of the Aatma started
| from the very beginnings of Creation (through the breaking of
| the Hiranyagarbha roughly translated as "Golden womb" or Big
| Bang in modern parlance). So when Sanatan Dharma talks of
| Karma it talks in terms of Cosmic timescale which runs in
| trillions of years. The Age of Brahma (who is the one who
| ushers in the Creation on the command of God - Lord Vishnu),
| according to Sanatan Dharma, is 311 trillion years (this is
| the lifetime of birth and death of Creation itself, before it
| restarts all over again (Big Crunch followed by Big Bang),
| with Lokas (Multiverses) within it). The Karmic cycle starts
| at the very beginning of Creation itself and ends with the
| end of Creation to restart again in a cyclical manner. So how
| do I fit all this in a 1:1 mapping between Karma and an
| English equivalent? There is no such word in English which
| defines Karma in its entirety.
|
| How do you translate Prana in English? "Life force" or "Vital
| principle". Both don't sufficiently describe Prana as Prana
| is closely tied to Vayu (also called Mukhya Prana or the
| controller of the life force). Without explaining Vayu you
| cannot explain Prana as Vayu is the controller and the cause.
| belfalas wrote:
| Mahabharata translation by William Buck is great for Westerners
| like myself with no prior introduction. I liked the Ramayana also
| in William Bucks translation.
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