[HN Gopher] KTM Unveils A Revamped 890 Adventure R for 2023
___________________________________________________________________
KTM Unveils A Revamped 890 Adventure R for 2023
Author : tiew9Vii
Score : 42 points
Date : 2022-09-18 06:13 UTC (16 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.advpulse.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.advpulse.com)
| peterlk wrote:
| Something that often gets overlooked in systems like this what
| happens when there are bugs. Mechanical control systems are often
| designed to be durable, and this gives rise to simplicity. Why
| add all this complexity? What happens when a bug in the software
| of the bike locks me out of functionality I've paid for? This
| approach is so user hostile.
|
| A bike throttle connected to a carburetor is beautifully elegant.
| Twist throttle -> pull wire -> wire pulls open air intake valve.
| If anything ever goes wrong with this system, it's usually a $5
| wire that needs to be replaced (fuel mixture problems are further
| down in the pipeline.
| Swizec wrote:
| I like the drive-by-wire throttle in my bike. The traction
| control it enables has saved me a few times. Like when hitting
| wet leaves or a moist metal grate.
|
| The yellow light blinks, you crap your pants a little, and
| survive the little skid without even a story to tell. Much
| better than scooping yourself off the pavement.
|
| More expensive bikes even have rain and sport modes that modify
| throttle response. All impossible without drive by wire.
| bradlys wrote:
| Having had to rebuild carbs only like 20 times and fiddle with
| fuel mixture a hundred more... I'll take a hard pass on this.
|
| This is heavily romanticized. It's a complete PITA and if you
| are unlucky enough to not have adjustable enough carbs due to
| insufficient part availability that allows for micro-
| adjustments to flow - you'll have an engine that always runs a
| bit off.
|
| I'll take modern FI any day.
| serf wrote:
| >A bike throttle connected to a carburetor is beautifully
| elegant.
|
| it's also inefficient and wasteful.
|
| we've gone through this revolution in cars already; the
| benefits don't need to be constantly stated every time --
| Reduced weight, reduced mechanical wear, greater efficiencies
| across the board. Usually cheaper to produce and easier to
| partially automate production.
|
| Yes -- things are more complicated and sometimes difficult or
| impossible for end users to modify or repair -- the fact of the
| matter is that there are less and less people interested in
| self repair as time goes on, so the manufacturers cater to that
| crowd less and cater to the higher paying crowds more.
|
| The reality is that very few people have the knowledge for
| carburetor self repair -- that also happens to be true for
| firmware debugging and ecm modification. The specialties are
| just shifting.
| beej71 wrote:
| I wouldn't mind a move to fuel injection on small dual sports
| (mine's a DRZ400S). (And some have already made the move.)
| But that's about it. No more computerized anything, if you
| please.
|
| These bikes are fun and useful because they are simple. And
| when they quit running in the middle of nowhere, odds are
| good you can get it going again with the tools you have on
| hand.
|
| It's difficult to overstate how mad I'd be to have to call
| for a tow because of a software fault. :D
| cbm-vic-20 wrote:
| It will be interesting to see what happens if one of the
| "subscription" hardware parts that has been deactivated has a
| problem that renders the rest of the bike unusable. Pretty much
| every motorcycle I have ever owned ends up with some sort of
| electrical problem at some point.
| avalys wrote:
| What's interesting about it? If that occurs past the warranty
| period, you have to pay out of pocket to replace the defective
| part like any other.
|
| The (hypothetical) fact that the defective part provides no
| functionality but could disable the bike is just a bad design.
| There's plenty of examples of bad design in motorcycles.
| tmh88j wrote:
| > What's interesting about it? If that occurs past the
| warranty period, you have to pay out of pocket to replace the
| defective part like any other.
|
| > There's plenty of examples of bad design in motorcycles.
|
| Sure, but you don't have to pay just to use the hardware you
| already own. If a part breaks you're paying 3x for that
| component - Once with the initial purchase, once to "use it",
| and again to replace it if it breaks. Do you work for KTM?
| You've posted numerous times in this thread defending these
| awful practices and every single response has basically been
| "I'm fine with being nickel and dimed because the company
| needs to make money too", which is nonsense because the parts
| are already paid for.
| avalys wrote:
| What "additional fees on top of replacing the part" are you
| talking about?
|
| I don't work for KTM, I work in optical R&D. I've posted
| multiple times in the thread because I find the groupthink
| on this topic ridiculous and I enjoy pointing it out.
|
| Do you think prices should be set by parts cost alone?
|
| What's the parts cost of a copy of Halo?
| tmh88j wrote:
| > What "additional fees on top of replacing the part" are
| you talking about?
|
| At this point I'm not even sure you understand what's
| being discussed, but I thought it was blatantly obvious
|
| > At 1500km/932 miles, the functionality is taken away
| automatically, and you are then software blocked from
| using the full capabilities of a vehicle you purchased
| until you pay for it to be unblocked.
| avalys wrote:
| I think you're the one who's not following the thread
| you're responding to here. Why don't you look at the post
| I immediately responded to - the author mentioned a more
| specific scenario than the post you quoted.
| tmh88j wrote:
| Am I being trolled by a bot right now? It's very obvious
| the comment you responded to is in line with what I've
| been saying.
|
| > It will be interesting to see what happens if one of
| the "subscription" hardware parts that has been
| deactivated has a problem that renders the rest of the
| bike unusable
|
| I don't know how else to make it clear. You've defended
| numerous times paying fees to use hardware that's already
| been paid for. I don't understand how you're so
| enthusiastic about paying twice.
| avalys wrote:
| The comment I was responding to asked:
|
| > what happens if one of the "subscription" hardware
| parts that has been deactivated has a problem that
| renders the rest of the bike unusable.
|
| In this hypothetical scenario (which is quite unlikely in
| the first place), you pay for the hardware once when you
| buy the bike, and again if it were to hypothetically fail
| out of warranty and disable the bike. My point is that
| this is the same as any other out-of-warranty hardware
| component.
|
| You are imagining a different situation, I guess, and
| asking what happens if you are paying for a subscription
| for this functionality and the required hardware fails
| out of warranty. I don't know about that but the article
| doesn't actually talk about a subscription at all.
|
| And regarding being enthusiastic about paying twice: in
| my mind, parts cost for the subsystems we're talking
| about here is just completely inconsequential. And so the
| two groups that are griping here are:
|
| A) People complaining about paying what amounts to $25
| extra for some sensors and electronic components they're
| "not going to use". B) People complaining about paying
| $25 in the base price and $475 in software upgrades,
| rather than $500 as a single line item, for something
| they would have bought anyway.
|
| I think both groups are being silly. And yes, I don't
| really care about "paying twice".
|
| If you think the result here is that the total cost of
| the KTM is too high relative to the competition - well
| that is a really boring complaint. You can always go buy
| another bike.
| aitchnyu wrote:
| Never had to ride regularly at 60+ kph, are round mirrors as good
| as aerodynamic (I assume) rectangular-ish mirrors?
| [deleted]
| 6stringmerc wrote:
| Does that mean they agree not to repossess it after 933 miles
| when I disable payments?
| tiew9Vii wrote:
| Not the usual Hacker News post, but I thought I'd share it as
| it's interesting with the direction of modern automotive software
| and software blocks.
|
| > KTM has also taken advantage of the growing electronic capacity
| of the 890 Adventure R to install a new DEMO MODE, seen for the
| first time on this 2023 model. The new mode will allow riders to
| sample the full electronic rider aids suite of the bike for the
| first 1,500 kilometers (932 miles), before the rider decides
| which pack or features to acquire.
|
| As an owner, you purchase a $25,000 AUD / $15,000 USD motorcycle,
| and all the built-in hardware works for 1500km/932 miles. At
| 1500km/932 miles, the functionality is taken away automatically,
| and you are then software blocked from using the full
| capabilities of a vehicle you purchased until you pay for it to
| be unblocked.
|
| Some of the functionality software blocked is being able to
| adjust traction control when off road...this is a motorcycle
| designed to go off-road, so a big piece of functionality people
| buy this bike for. The other is downshifting with the quick
| shifter. All the hardware is built in. It works for 1500km then
| stops until you pay up.
| martin_a wrote:
| As a motorbike rider myself, I find this terrible. It obviously
| makes the whole bike more expensive as you have to integrate
| all the hardware, which can break down although you might have
| never used it. Isn't BMW going to do something like that with
| its cars, too?
|
| A question that might arise from that: Say I don't use/buy a
| specific feature for the first X years and want to have it
| enabled after that. It then turns out that the hardware
| required for that is broken. Who's liable for that and has to
| pay?
|
| In a classical scenario, I'd have sth. like a two year warranty
| on the newly integrated parts, but as those parts were
| integrated for the X years I've already owned the car/bike and
| the defect has just come up as they were activated now...
| avalys wrote:
| It's not really clear that this makes the whole bike more
| expensive. Most of the expense for features like this is in
| the design and engineering, not raw parts costs.
|
| Shipping all the bikes with the same hardware but enabling
| options in software might actually make the base bike _less
| expensive_ than if they had to design and manufacture two
| different physical configurations.
| martin_a wrote:
| > Most of the expense for features like this is in the
| design and engineering, not raw parts costs. [...] might
| actually make the base bike less expensive
|
| Yeah, I'm not sure about that. BMW wants to integrate
| heated seats in all models and only activate them through a
| subscription, if I remember correctly.
|
| While that might streamline production and therefore lead
| to optimizations, I doubt that those will be passed on to
| the customer. But you now have more servicable parts,
| weight etc. pp. in ALL models with a chance that they
| break...
|
| We've played enough of the capitalism game to know that
| this is not about the customer and a better price for him.
| ce4 wrote:
| I agree with your last sentence - but i doubt that the
| baseline price will be that much higher via added parts
| like heated grips (it's just a flexcable/flexible PCB
| under the rubber hand grip + external wiring). The
| gearshift lever sensor (piezo electric module) should
| also not be too expensive.
|
| The expensive parts are the electronics sourced from 3rd
| party vendors (eg. the 6 axle IMU to enable cornering
| ABS, traction control, anti-wheelie control and so on
| which I guess is mostly sourced from Bosch, or the
| emission control). And of course meeting and proving
| conformance to all the regulation
| martin_a wrote:
| Adding heated grips to a BMW F 850 GS is only possible by
| adding the "Active" package, which comes at 445 Euro.
| That also includes new driving modes and a baseplate for
| luggage, to be fair.
|
| Nevertheless there's a hefty price tag for adding
| anything, before even buying/building the bike. If I was
| a motorbike company I'd not cut my margin on things like
| these.
| avalys wrote:
| Heated seats are a great example. How much does a
| resistive heating element and some connectors cost? What
| are you worried about "breaking" if you're not using the
| heated seats in the first place?
|
| Do you have heated seats in your car right now? Go under
| your seat and and unplug the connector and tell me what
| happens. Nothing...
|
| > We've played enough of the capitalism game to know that
| this is not about the customer and a better price for
| him.
|
| Go drive a Mercedes S-Class from 1992 and a Toyota Camry
| from 2022 and tell me how capitalism isn't resulting in
| lower prices for the customer.
| [deleted]
| martin_a wrote:
| > How much does a resistive heating element and some
| connectors cost?
|
| Probably 25 Euro, but that's not what anybody is paying
| for it. See the other comment, heated grips for a BMW
| motorbike cost 445 Euro and they only come in a nonsense-
| bundle to disguise the actual cost. What do you think
| will happen once cars are changing into "feature as a
| service"-platform? Enabling the car to have heated seats
| via a subscription will surely rise the base price more
| than 25 Euro.
|
| > Go drive a Mercedes S-Class from 1992 and a Toyota
| Camry from 2022 and tell me how capitalism isn't
| resulting in lower prices for the customer.
|
| What kind of shitty comparison is this supposed to be?
| Comparing a 30 year old high-class limousine to a current
| middle-class car? What's next? Comparing the Commodore
| C64 to the latest iPhone and blaming the C64 for its poor
| Bluetooth connectivity?
| ce4 wrote:
| I think it's the other way around.
|
| It makes the bike's base-model cheaper (and KTM hopes that
| everyone checks all the upgrade boxes or they make the
| upgrade sales in the aftermarket e.g. 2nd or 3rd owner
| onwards). Counter example: the KTM 790 Duke for example was
| too cheap (had most upgrades already built-in), and
| subsequently was replaced by the 890. You can see it with
| used-790's prices - the used motorcycle market is nuts anyway
| at the moment (with all the emission requirements, compulsory
| ABS etc adding weight and reducing power on current models.
| While i dont disagree with those regulations, the market
| makes a statement via used motorcycle prices for older
| models).
| jskrablin wrote:
| Other than that all of the extra sensors, wiring and software
| bugs are making new/recent road going (this is off road vehicle
| in the same sense as SUVs are) motorbikes quite unreliable,
| often leaving official service providers scratching their heads
| re why something refuses to work. FI is nice, so is ABS (with a
| switch to turn it off when offroading, which is rare nowadays).
| Everything else is just asking for problems.
| dm319 wrote:
| I can't stand this. If I buy a vehicle I expect to own it, not
| be locked out of hardware that has used the Earth's resources
| to exist, and has been 'paid' for by the consumers as a whole.
| What a waste.
| flyinglizard wrote:
| It's just something to negotiate with the dealer, being that as
| software it's a "zero cost" thing. I'm doing just that on a
| Duke 890R now. "Give me the software for free", and they do
| (I'm not in the US; YMMV. Go buy a Ducati)
| avalys wrote:
| I don't see the problem.
|
| Manufacturers have been selling "options packages" for decades.
| You can either buy the base bike for $15,000, or one with
| "premium package" for $18,000.
|
| It's obvious to everyone that the extra doodads you're buying
| don't actually cost them $3,000 more. It's just a way for them
| to segment the market and charge more for those who are willing
| to pay. The alternative is, they sell a single configuration
| for $17,000.
|
| Now they're just saying, hey, most of this functionality is in
| software anyway. Rather than pretend that the $10 sensor needed
| to enable the quick shifter costs $3,000, they're going to put
| the $10 sensor in all the bikes and charge you for the software
| required to use it. And like most software, you can get a free
| trial before you need to decide if you want it. So what?
|
| It's also quite possible that these extra features actually
| don't require any additional hardware at all. The bike already
| has wheel speed sensors, accelerometers, etc. for the "base"
| ABS functionality and the advanced stuff you're paying for
| might be entirely in software.
| dm319 wrote:
| The bike comes with the hardware required to allow this
| functionality (a quick shifter needs the physical ability to
| reduce the torque to the gearbox to work), what a waste of
| the world's resources to kit out these machines with these
| electronics and technology, and then not allow people who
| have physically bought the device to make use of it.
| ce4 wrote:
| The quickshifter purely makes use of existing hardware
| except for the shift-sensor which is a small piezo-sensor-
| insert in the shift lever.
|
| The existing hardware being:
|
| - ride-by-wire: ability to open/close the throttle
| electronically
|
| - electronic injection control: ability to
| decrease/increase fuel injection
|
| What the quickshifter feature does:
|
| a) shift-up was done by decreasing / stopping fuel
| injection or stopping ignition: torque decreases and for a
| split second there's no/little torque between gears and the
| next gear can be shifted effortlessly
|
| b) shift down needs increasing torque (usually due to
| deceleration torque of the engine when the throttle is
| closed), so this artificially opens the throttle to reverse
| this effect and allow shifting
|
| The magic is all in the software, and there's big
| differences in the smoothness between manufactures, and
| also between model years. This is a pure
| comfort/performance feature, a quickshifter is not needed
| at all and you still need the clutch to get going.
|
| Edit: very old vehicles need a so called double-clutch /
| german "Zwischengas" to make up for the missing
| synchronisation / synchromesh gears. That's what's done in
| software here.
| avalys wrote:
| We're talking about a $15,000 off-road premium European
| motorcycle that burns gasoline for rich young guys to have
| fun tearing through the wilderness. That's a "waste of the
| world's resources". The $10 sensor on the shift lever that
| you're complaining about is inconsequential.
| 10u152 wrote:
| Big adv bikes are generally for older gents. Young guys
| are on 250s and 400s and 500s
| ce4 wrote:
| I own the predecessor bike, the KTM 790 Adventure (non-R though
| because both my wife + me ride it and the R's seat height only
| fits me).
|
| The 790 from 2019 (and the 790 Duke from 2017+) have a TFT and
| upgradable software-packages already, amongst other models.
| That includes ride-modes, up/down quick-shifter and probably
| more. (Heated grips are NOT actually pre-fitted and the control
| box installed only if you order the feature and it is separate
| from the LCD).
|
| I bought every package except rallye-mode. If you need that,
| just shell out the 250EUR or what it actually costs. Not a big
| deal, as the bulk of riders will not use that anyway. As a
| former BMW-motorcycle rider I'm also used to check all the
| extras/upgrades anyway.
|
| What irks me more is the mandatory cloud-based maintenance
| "book", bugs in the firmware (the headlight doesn't switch off
| for "security" reasons if you turn off the bike in motion - and
| it will drain the battery until it's flat. I had a number of
| empty battery situations and one dead battery due to this silly
| feature already and complained but the manufacturer is
| unwilling to fix it). Also the upgradable packages require the
| dealership to acquire a software license directly from KTM, no
| bypassing allowed. So this all follows Tesla more or less, I
| expcect always-on connectivity in a few years. BMW Motorcycles
| already has that for some (?) of it's motorcycle models (if you
| buy the SOS-/"crash-detected-the-bike-calls-911"-feature).
|
| Edit: small typo/grammar corrections + better wording.
| 6c737133 wrote:
| I continue to hope that people will vote with their wallets and
| kill this garbage... but then I remember, look at the current
| state of 'smart TVs' or even the dying industry of residential
| printer ... adware bloated fake-limited trash
|
| Govs at a UN-level need to kill this shit... but sadly,
| capitalism is a core tenant of most UN members, and these
| scummy tactics generate revenue... so.... I've used a lot of
| words to 'fuck. we're fucked.'
|
| :(
| vorador wrote:
| I had to look up the hack people used to do back in the day
| to have their cheap sennheiser basically become a model
| that's $100 more
| (https://hackaday.com/2011/02/12/uncrippling-lower-model-
| spea...). That was 10 years ago! So yeah, this trend is going
| to stay for a while.
| m463 wrote:
| I remember when you could change 24x cdrom drives to the
| 48x version.
| [deleted]
| sjsdaiuasgdia wrote:
| Punching holes in 3.5" floppies to turn 720kb double
| density into 1.44mb high density will remain my favorite
| removable media hack. Saved me so much money as a kid.
| jvilalta wrote:
| Would an equivalent bike with the extra features cost the same
| or more? Am curious if turning off the features makes it less
| expensive to get started with a basic bike.
| digdugdirk wrote:
| It would cost the exact same. The majority of these features
| require hardware aspects (the quickshifter needs to interact
| with throttle/fuel/ignition, traction control systems require
| sensors to monitor wheelslip and engine conditions) that come
| installed from the factory. The subscription service just
| turns the features on/off.
|
| To make a computer analogy - imagine if the every MacBook in
| the lineup was shipped with 32gb of ram soldered in as
| standard, and then Apple disabled 28gb of that via software.
| Sure, they could sell you the "flexibility" to upgrade at any
| time (maybe even on an hourly basis in case you need some
| extra oomph to finish up your compiling!) but we'd all know
| that the reality is they're holding the product that you
| already purchased hostage in exchange for a recurring source
| of revenue.
| pedrocr wrote:
| That computer analogy is exactly how IBM runs their
| mainframe hardware. Over-provision the hardware and then
| unlock it as you pay up. It's a delivery model that didn't
| use to make sense in consumer devices because the
| manufacturer would have to pay for all the hardware even if
| they weren't selling the feature. It seems lately it has
| become profitable to do it. I guess it means you have to
| deal with less SKUs and thus saves enough money in
| manufacturing to compensate for the extra parts/complexity.
| Probably because a lot of the complexity has moved to
| software so the hardware is the same anyway.
| teddyh wrote:
| " _CAUTION. Do not remove the wire from pin 4AB to 7FL in
| the CPU enclosure. This wire is located approximately 7
| inches up from the bottom of the backplane in bay 2 and
| should not be removed by using a GE 112-3 wire unwrapping
| tool, first not removing the wrapping from 4AB, then
| pulling the wire from under the other wiring to its bound
| end at 7FL, followed by not unwrapping the bound end from
| 7FL. Not removing this wire will result in the normal
| clockspeed which is 1.6 times slower than with the wire
| removed and will not cause corresponding increases in
| system throughput._ "
|
| -- https://www.cs.earlham.edu/~skylar/humor/Unix/computer
| .folkl...
| kybernetyk wrote:
| >All the hardware is built in. It works for 1500km then stops
| until you pay up.
|
| Which I think is an improvement. I always used to add features
| to my cars that were available from the factory as an option
| but which I didn't order. Usually the process involved adding
| the hardware (spare parts, etc) and then changing flags in the
| car's system via OBD.
|
| But when the hardware is already there this becomes way
| simpler: Just change the flags in the firmware and you're done.
| aaaaaaaaaaab wrote:
| Unless the firmware is code-signed.
| manaskarekar wrote:
| Is there an option to buy it without the additional hardware?
| martin_a wrote:
| That would defeat the purpose of streamlining production and
| being able to sell the subscription services, so probably no.
|
| But on the other hand, pricing is not yet published, so time
| will tell.
| mring33621 wrote:
| Anyone know how much the 'upgrade' costs, once the trial period
| ends?
|
| It's hard to know how upset to be, without knowing the cost.
|
| Also, will it be one time payment or a recurring charge?
| blutack wrote:
| From https://www.motorcyclenews.com/bike-
| reviews/ktm/890-adventur... for the current model, which has
| the same upgrades thing but doesn't have the demo mode (that's
| the new thing). USD pretty much equals GBP currently.
| Considering the R costs a penny shy of PS12,000 it is a shame
| that KTM have pared back on its standard equipment. If you want
| cruise control (its new buttons are standard fitment) that will
| be an extra PS225.61, the up/down quickshifter is a further
| PS361.51, MSR (engine braking control) PS135.01 and adding
| 'Rally' mode will be PS180.34. Or you can buy the
| 'Tech Pack' for PS769.30 which has them all for a discounted
| price. Heated grips are PS225.66 extra and while the dash has
| connectivity, you need to pay PS7.99 for the KTM MyRide
| Navigation app to add a basic 'turn-by-turn' navigation system.
|
| They do note that it is still reasonable value compared to
| other bikes in the class even with the options added, as
| competitors either don't have these options at all or they are
| only available on higher spec models.
| ramesh31 wrote:
| > Upgraded 5" TFT display with USB connection, reworked intuitive
| graphics, and new Turn-by-Turn + navigation (app needed).
|
| I'm gonna go out on a limb here and guess that the "app" is an
| unusable nightmare.
| ce4 wrote:
| Yep, it's crap. But there's an unofficial 3rd party app that
| reverse engineered the BT connection and enables a number of
| navigation apps:
|
| https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.undingen.m...
|
| The app scrapes your main navigation app's notifications and
| forwards that as text + turn-by-turn arrows to a dedicated area
| in the motorcycle's display.
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