[HN Gopher] Can the American mall survive?
___________________________________________________________________
Can the American mall survive?
Author : 0x54MUR41
Score : 62 points
Date : 2022-09-11 14:46 UTC (1 days ago)
(HTM) web link (newrepublic.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (newrepublic.com)
| fbn79 wrote:
| Some data suggest that USA mall are still (slowing) growing
| https://www.grandviewresearch.com/industry-analysis/shopping...
| quartz wrote:
| Simon is hanging onto something like 93% occupancy despite the
| last few pandemic years which is pretty impressive.
| bombcar wrote:
| I've noticed that at least some of the "buy online" things
| are being shipped from stores. So ordering something from
| Kohl's or Walmart or Home Depot actually has someone in a
| _store_ (not a warehouse) pick and pack it and send it off.
|
| That may help keep the malls alive even as traffic dwindles.
| jamesbfb wrote:
| Whenever I hear about any American mall, I can't help but think
| of Dan Bell's Dead Mall series:
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l5NsVylQBWM&list=PLNz4Un92pG...
|
| Oddly enough, I live in Melbourne, Australia and the humble mall
| AKA shopping centre is well and truly alive.
| jshier wrote:
| Stayed in Melbourne across the street from the giant
| underground mall above the metro station. Quite the place! Has
| a whole bullet factory inside. Also, the open airflow structure
| of many places was so weird coming from the US, and I was there
| in the depth of winter. 32degF, 0degC the day I left.
| m000 wrote:
| Whenever _I_ hear about any American mall, I can 't help but
| think of George Romero's Dawn of the Dead:
| https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0077402/
| caradine wrote:
| I hope not. Malls exist to satisfy people's need to walk around
| in their environment in our otherwise un-walkable cities. Maybe
| without malls, we will start to demand more walkable areas in our
| cities and towns.
| hombre_fatal wrote:
| It sounds funny, but there's something to your comment.
|
| I'm visiting my girlfriend's parents in Monterrey (MX) and we
| have incorporated the nearby mall into our daily 10k-steps
| walking habit. It's air-conditioned in this awful heat. It's
| fun to people-watch. It's more interesting than doing yet
| another stroll around the neighborhood/park in gym clothes.
| Maybe while there we incidentally buy an icecream, coffee, or a
| new t-shirt as a bonus, or maybe not.
|
| We joke (darkly) that when we buy a house, we'll need to be
| sure it's near a mall so that we stay in shape.
|
| I would add that the mall is also a destination to be around
| people, to see and be seen. There aren't a lot of places to do
| that. At the upscale one near me, people dress up. They aren't
| just romping through it to buy some shoes from Macy's and gtfo.
| They are walking with loved ones and lovers. Teens and
| quinceaneras are meeting up in it.
|
| That said, the semi-upscale mall in my hometown in Texas was
| also thriving the last time I was there. Clearly, not all malls
| are doomed. "Why not just use Amazon?" seems to miss something
| that malls have that Amazon.com can never have. Hopefully malls
| build on that.
|
| The mall next to me in Monterrey just built a new section with
| an indoor jungle gym for kids (basically a local park with A/C,
| imagine), a museum, roller-blading, and it has various
| community events. That seems to be the right direction. It's
| people things. We need more people things! I suspect we are
| desperate for it.
| RajT88 wrote:
| Seconded. Walking around without much goal in mind other than
| to walk around where people are is the strong suit of a mall.
|
| It's just a shame in much of NA, there's no malls open late
| night for night owls. I gather it's more of a thing in Asia.
| caradine wrote:
| Yeah, exactly. There aren't many places to just enjoy
| existing and walking around in public in most U.S. cities
| because we've built most of our cities around automobiles.
| U.S. cities consist of islands to hop between in a sea of
| traffic, instead of places to just _be_. Malls satisfy that
| very human need. Dense, walkable, neighborhoods also satisfy
| that need.
| twblalock wrote:
| Westfield seems to have figured out how to make malls profitable.
| Everyone else, not so much.
|
| The secret sauce seems to be high-end luxury stores. Nordstrom
| and Bloomingdales, not Sears or JC Penney.
|
| Around the SF Bay Area, all the non-Westfield malls are dying and
| the Westfield malls are so crowded you can't park on a weekend.
| bsder wrote:
| Westfield is dumping all their North American malls:
| https://spectrumnews1.com/ca/orange-county/business/2022/04/...
|
| That's a sign that they see _something_ in their numbers, and
| it 's not good.
| anonAndOn wrote:
| Keeping Sears out of the mall may be one of the biggest reasons
| why they're doing so well. Sears was poisonous for the Vallco
| Mall in Cupertino and why Westfield bailed on it. [0]
|
| [0]https://www.unitedcupertino.org/single-
| post/2017/06/01/histo...
| shagie wrote:
| I recall watching a program on KQED many, many years ago about
| the mall. This one was focusing on the Metreon. It's premise
| was that that malls needed to be mini-vacations and what we are
| witnessing is a change in what people want from a vacation.
|
| There was a time when going to the Metreon was a mini vacation.
| I recall a Discovery store on the first floor, Sony and
| Microsoft, the Airtight garage with games that you'd never find
| at the arcade, a "how things work" store where I got a
| tensirigitoy, Expandagon Construction System, and other cube
| things that still find their way into the back of my video
| calls. There was that kids area at the top which I believe I
| would have loved if I was in the mid single digits.
|
| But things changed and the vacation feel left. I recall the
| last time I was there there was a pop up store where the
| discovery store was and the comic book store that was in the
| place of the how things work store was struggling. Sony and
| Microsoft had their spat.
|
| The other examples they had were of big outdoor gear stores -
| Bass Pro Shop or similar with in in store aquarium or the REI
| store with rock climbing.
|
| Going to a bunch of stores that are under the same roof and
| scraping by with a flea market like atmosphere isn't the type
| of thing that I enjoy as a vacation. I'm sure some do, but
| that's not what I'm after.
|
| At one time, the malls were something that just having Aladin's
| arcade, KB Toys, a hobby shop (that had model rockets and
| plastic models), a small book store, a few restaurants with
| better than acceptable food (but not a food court), Spencer's
| (with those weird posters that had a different image under a
| black light in the back)... that was enough of a vacation for a
| pre-teen or teenager and a place you asked to go.
| ja27 wrote:
| They dumped all of the malls they own here
| crooked-v wrote:
| Or, much more pithily, "stores with stuff you can't reasonably
| get off Amazon".
| twblalock wrote:
| Not just that -- people like the luxury shopping experience.
| Even if you could buy an LV bag or a Rolex on Amazon, people
| would still do it in person if they could.
| JKCalhoun wrote:
| > The more you try to control the environment, the more stifling
| it becomes. I think this is why I turned on malls after spending
| my formative years inside them. As I got older, I yearned for the
| unpredictability of a less manicured and mass-produced reality,
| one more surprising than what a stop at the Gap or Sbarro could
| offer.
|
| Christ, isn't that the case. I remember as a child visiting
| different places in the U.S. and it was often like visiting
| foreign countries. Increasingly though, so much of the U.S. looks
| so much like the rest in terms of retail/food that I begin to
| feel the entire country is in fact a mall of sorts.
| sidpatil wrote:
| > Increasingly though, so much of the U.S. looks so much like
| the rest in terms of retail/food that I begin to feel the
| entire country is in fact a mall of sorts.
|
| Here's a good video on the subject:
| https://youtu.be/UX4KklvCDmg
| fzeroracer wrote:
| This is one of the reasons why I can't stand being anywhere in
| the Suburban dead zone. Everything is devoid of uniqueness and
| every single one looks just about the same across the US. Both
| rural and urban areas at least retain some semblance of history
| or culture.
| bombcar wrote:
| It's like the NIMBY problem - everyone claims to _want_ the
| variation and difference, but they _act_ so as to make
| everything uniform and identical.
| InCityDreams wrote:
| Similar/ same is happening in Europe. George Carlin gave a
| tirade against the malls of america in the.....70s?
| rootusrootus wrote:
| Of course it can, by evolving with the times. Our local mall
| changed from being a typical indoor American mall to something
| that still has some indoor stores, but now with a lot more anchor
| stores facing outwards, along with newer standalone stores along
| the edges. The popularity of the place -was- declining, but
| nowadays they're doing quite well.
|
| The real problem was probably more about having a bunch of little
| stores that were not by themselves a big draw. The anchor stores
| are really important. I kinda wonder if the decline of the mall
| was more to do with Sears, JC Penny, Mongtomery Ward, and the
| like going out of business, and there was a slump while we
| collectively decided what to replace them with.
| yazaddaruvala wrote:
| The American style mall should end.
|
| We need more superblocks.
|
| Roughly on a 10 city-block sq area - a giant parking lot
| underneath, a floor for public transit (eg train station), 2
| floors of mall (theater, groceries, bars, food, gyms, sports
| centers), with residential living towers the rest of the way up,
| with green space above the mall between the towers.
|
| e.g. https://www.vox.com/platform/amp/energy-and-
| environment/2019...
| Tade0 wrote:
| I'll do you one better. Behold - the communist superblock where
| I spent half of my childhood:
|
| https://www.google.pl/maps/@52.1409132,21.0491488,16z/data=!...
|
| Without going over a single pedestrian crossing you can reach
| a:
|
| -school(grades 1-8, with a soccer and basketball field
| available to the public) and kindergarten
|
| -mini-mart
|
| -clinic
|
| -dentist
|
| -playground
|
| -culture center
|
| -hairdresser/barber
|
| -tire shop/car wash
|
| -mini spa which somehow is still there after 25 years.
|
| Bars and cafes are across the street. The grassy area in the
| northern part is used for festivals and the like in the summer.
|
| Note how almost all the parking spots are around the
| superblock.
|
| All that without being a human pile-up like Barcelona because -
| and I can't stress this enough - that is not a requirement for
| having a decent, walkable neighbourhood.
| sosodev wrote:
| A lot of communist designed spaces seem quite nice. Though
| maybe they just have the potential to be nice like the one
| that you linked but a ton of them in less developed areas are
| falling apart from lack of maintenance.
| foobarian wrote:
| Communist places are nice as long as you can keep your
| people from leaving to EU or America where they are paid
| 20x more than at home and have more freedoms. And once
| those floodgates open it's a nasty negative feedback loop.
| jltsiren wrote:
| I also grew up in areas like that in Finland. They still
| worked as intended when I was a kid in the 80s and early 90s.
| Then most services went away. As living standards increased,
| population density decreased, as people could afford more
| space. And as real wages increased, businesses needed more
| sales per employee to be profitable. Medium-density areas no
| longer had enough people to support local services.
| Tade0 wrote:
| Some of the buildings here were built much later than the
| rest - my take is that that spoiled the original idea
| (removing, among other things, a local farmer's market),
| but they did increase population density considerably.
|
| But yeah, a few corner shops didn't survive.
| lwouis wrote:
| These ways of life and ridiculous scale came with fossil fuel
| and will go away with it, within this century.
|
| The mall of the future is probably something close to a
| farmer's market where people will come to sell goods with
| bikes/animals.
|
| If you think the current lifestyle of developped nations will
| continue its trends, you're in for a surprise, as early as the
| next decades.
| [deleted]
| boatsie wrote:
| Skyscrapers in Tokyo are similar to this. Subway stations
| connected to the basement, retail and restaurants in some
| floors and office or residential above.
| encryptluks2 wrote:
| Industrialization has shown to decrease happiness and create
| more stress and health issues. The United States is huge, with
| the average farm size being approximately 444 acres. Rather
| than further condense society into cages while the entitled own
| the vast amount of resources, why not further distribute
| society into actual green communities that don't require
| massive cement structures everywhere and instead promote self-
| sustaining communities that provide actual practical and fair
| values.
| Sohcahtoa82 wrote:
| Your comment uses so much loaded language that I'm not
| actually sure what you're arguing against or for.
|
| > actual green communities that don't require massive cement
| structures everywhere
|
| I interpret this as meaning more single-family homes rather
| than apartments and condos.
|
| That would mean urban sprawl which is _anything but_ green.
| The lower the population density, the less effective mass
| transit becomes, and more people are driving. Most jobs can
| 't be done from home.
|
| > self-sustaining communities
|
| I interpret this to mean not needing external resources, but
| this would mean your food choices are limited based on the
| whims of the local climate. Live up north? Then you're not
| getting any mangoes or other tropical fruits.
| ok_dad wrote:
| It's more efficient to suck the productivity from the masses
| when they're actually massed up together, yet still separated
| enough from each other not to fight it. Smaller communities
| that are more self-sufficient and connected would upset that,
| because the people wouldn't agree to giving up their
| productivity to some non-local entity. Therefore, our
| overlords ensure that "society" treats that type of
| lifestyle/community as something anti-modern and degrade it
| to "3rd world" status, as if the "3rd world" label was
| anything other than a way to feel superior. This is done
| through their captured communications channels, such as the
| media and various blog platforms they control; if they didn't
| have their fingers on the scale people would probably see
| that some good ideas could come from a different worldview.
| slowmovintarget wrote:
| The bazaar is dead, long live the bazaar!
| [deleted]
| Damogran6 wrote:
| It's not only Malls. We used to go _shopping_...Service
| Merchandise, Sears, Circuit City, La Belles, K-Mart,
| Borders...for better or worse, in a large metro area, you're more
| likely to only have Food (Kroeger), and Boutique Food (Whole
| Foods) as places to go hang out.
|
| Sure, there's the Movie Theatre, but having gone last week when
| they had $3 tickets, people have forgotten how to go to the
| Theatre...likewise, we went to Cirque de Soleil's OVO and it's
| clear we've lost a little in the 'how to entertain' and a lot of
| 'how to behave while being entertained'.
| llbeansandrice wrote:
| I sound like a shill but Alamo Drafthouse is the only theater I
| bother with anymore unless it's IMAX or similar.
| sybercecurity wrote:
| That seems to be the trend in suburbs too - a sort of planned
| development with single family homes and a denser "main street"
| area with commercial on the ground floor and condos or
| professional offices above. Some have apartment buildings
| alongside too. Sometimes there is a movie theater, library, or
| community space mixed in as well.
|
| Most of the commercial space is either restaurants/food or
| service places like hair salons, dry cleaners, etc. Very little
| in the way of retail stores. Mostly as the occasional
| Target/Walmart/etc. big retailer nearby. This seems to be the
| assumption for single professionals/married without kids
| demographic: more dining, but buying things is mostly online or
| big box general retail stores.
| throwthroyaboat wrote:
| I value the small amount of retail in my little downtown main
| street. There is a reasonably sized ace hardware within 5
| minutes walk, and I'm there almost every week to pick up
| lightbulbs, screws, etc. The staff are friendly and helpful.
| It's so much more convenient than driving to a big box store,
| finding parking, walking through 20 isles. Sure, it doesn't
| have whiteware or a lumber yard, but I'll sorely miss it if
| it ever closes. Same thing with the office supply store. Most
| tech stuff they have is the same price as amazon, and they
| offer great printing services.
| jedberg wrote:
| > people have forgotten how to go to the Theatre
|
| I went to see Top Gun a couple weeks ago, it was my first time
| in a theater in years. There were _five_ different ads, the
| gist of all of which were, "Don't forget you're in public, so
| don't talk or pull out your phone or get up if you don't have
| to". One of them literally said, "We know it's been a while
| since you've watched a movie in public, and maybe you've
| forgotten how that works".
|
| It was sort of condescending but at the same time I totally get
| the need.
| Damogran6 wrote:
| And yet some of the audience ignored all that entirely.
| jedberg wrote:
| In my particular theater that didn't happen since my family
| was 60% of the audience (well actually my wife kept getting
| up and doing stuff until I reminded her we were in a
| theater) but yeah I've heard it happens a lot now.
|
| I think if theaters want people to keep coming, they will
| need to make the experience better than home, and that will
| include enforcing no phone/no noise rules.
| Damogran6 wrote:
| We had the usual cadre of Teenaged boys, but we also had
| an Indian Couple behind us, I'm not sure if that one was
| cultural or not.
| chaosbutters314 wrote:
| multi level parking, 2-3 story housing built over existing mall,
| build high rise housing in unnecessary parking areas, put some
| grass/parks in. not sure why this is complicated.
|
| starts with rezoning
| bitlax wrote:
| > not sure why this is complicated.
|
| I wish this made people less inclined to have a strong opinion.
| tablespoon wrote:
| > not sure why this is complicated
|
| IMHO, if you're presenting a solution with the length and
| grammar of a telegram, it's probably more accurate to say,
| "however, this is surely more complicated than I understand."
| hackerlight wrote:
| It's not technically complicated, but it is politically
| complicated, because you're fighting against vested interests
| who desperately and selfishly want to stop you.
| pessimizer wrote:
| > you're fighting against vested interests who desperately
| and selfishly want to stop you.
|
| There are no such vested interests and this is a YIMBY
| fantasy. People would be overjoyed if it were easy to
| convert malls into neighborhoods.
| ratg13 wrote:
| I'm currently looking out the window at a shopping center
| with exactly this format.
|
| It's very nice, and not really any more complex than regular
| zoning and planning.
| tablespoon wrote:
| > I'm currently looking out the window at a shopping center
| with exactly this format.
|
| FWIW, I don't think the op was actually describing a
| shopping center.
| epistasis wrote:
| They're trying to do that with a local mall. One of the main
| objections of the city council is that new residents cost them
| money in terms of necessary services like schools, whereas the
| mall itself is a cash cow because of the sales tax, with
| minimal city services for the mall.
|
| It's taken as a given that housing is generally too expensive
| for the mall workers to live nearby...
| asdff wrote:
| The roof of most malls probably can't hold much more weight
| than AC units. It would probably be cheaper to just demolish
| the entire site and restart.
| tpm wrote:
| That would probably require demolishing or substantially
| remodelling existing buildings. At which point it's probably
| cheaper to build on an empty lot.
| wollsmoth wrote:
| Yeah my local mall is doing this. If they can pull together
| some tasty and healthy-ish options at the food court the mall
| could get a lot of traffic just from lazy people trying to get
| an easy dinner.
| schnevets wrote:
| To start, malls tend to be built on highways removed from a
| municipality's center. Many of the people in this area will
| need certain amenities (for example, schools) and will have
| commutes. The entire surrounding area would have to be
| redesigned before you can plop 2,000 new residents in an empty
| lot.
|
| I'm not saying it can't be done, but making something more
| desirable _is_ more complicated than just rezoning. And making
| something less desirable could be absolutely dystopian.
| jghn wrote:
| In areas I've seen, the older malls are effectively closer in
| due to decades of sprawl. If one converts those, the effect
| isn't as stark.
| epistasis wrote:
| The mall is perfectly suited to adapt to 2000 new residents;
| shift one store to a grocery, one to a daycare, and you're
| 90% of the way to rebuilding a nice little town center that
| lets people live most of their lives without a car.
|
| The real problem is the planning profession, which has taken
| to such micromanagement of central planning that there's no
| way to dynamically adjust spaces to better uses. In my local
| downtown area, there are extremely strict rules about which
| type of retail are allowed where. And how close to which
| corners. It's a disaster.
| slfnflctd wrote:
| > for example, schools
|
| I know of at least two malls near a place I lived a few years
| ago that have been partially converted into schools.
| ardel95 wrote:
| I think they can, but they may need to evolve away from a goods
| marketplace and more towards entertainment centers. Most of the
| times we find ourselves going to a mall it's to do something (eat
| out, watch a movie, engage in some kids activity) rather than to
| buy something.
| omginternets wrote:
| Would anything of value be lost if it didn't? I cannot find it in
| me to cling to shopping malls.
| triceratops wrote:
| I personally don't like shopping malls. But I can't deny that
| they're a social outlet, a "third place", a hangout location
| for a lot of people (senior citizens, teens and children). Not
| everywhere has Northern California climate.
| dilyevsky wrote:
| Malls can certainly be done right. For example, Ikea run ones
| (I mean the rest of the mall not just ikea store) are usually
| pretty nice. It's just that in US they tend to be very low
| quality and there are too many of them and location usually
| sucks. West coast tends to be worse at this too
| hotpotamus wrote:
| It's nice to walk around in South Texas during the summer when
| heat indexes are pushing into the one-teens.
| thewebcount wrote:
| I'm not sure what it's like these days, but when I was in my
| early teens, before I could drive, my mother would drive me and
| maybe a friend to the mall, and we could walk around and hang
| out without our parents. They'd go get something they needed,
| and we'd go to the record store, or the food court, and just
| talk and stuff. It was a place where you could meet kids who
| went to other schools than you. It was basically our first
| taste of freedom from parents and freedom of choice. If we had
| some pocket money we could pick up an album we liked, or buy a
| shirt or poster we thought was cool, or whatever. As mentioned
| in the article, as we got older, it became a place of
| conformity, but from about age 10-15, it was a really nice
| reprieve from family life, and was a relatively safe place to
| have that reprieve.
| tablespoon wrote:
| > Would anything of value be lost if it didn't?
|
| Yeah: online shopping is terrible, especially for clothes. If
| shopping malls die, your options will be online or driving all
| around town between strip malls and the like.
| caradine wrote:
| Or living in a walkable city, or advocating for walkable
| areas in your city/town.
| tablespoon wrote:
| > Or living in a walkable city,
|
| So, basically: be rich or make worse tradeoffs in other
| areas?
|
| > or advocating for walkable areas in your city/town.
|
| Doubt that would happen in any reasonable timeframe, with
| any amount of certainty. In the mean time, I still have to
| buy clothes.
| omginternets wrote:
| The choice isn't between malls and the internet. There are
| plenty of brick-and-mortar stores in, say, town centers.
| rr888 wrote:
| Where I am they're an oasis in a hot humid summer, and freezing
| winter where people can hang out.
| lastofthemojito wrote:
| I generally prefer shopping for clothing in-person over online
| shopping. It's just too hard to get the fit right online
| without some luck and the back-and-forth of returns and re-
| orders. I had to get a dress shirt and pants ASAP for a funeral
| recently when I realized my old ones no longer fit. I went to
| the mall, and I had to go to multiple stores to find something
| that I liked and that fit well, but I found it -- without
| having to drive all over to visit multiple stores, and without
| having to wait for shipping and/or deal with returns.
|
| I don't visit malls often, but I can see some value in having
| them around.
| m000 wrote:
| True. Clothes are perhaps the only thing that can be hard to
| shop online. However, getting the wrong fit when shopping
| online is kind of understandable. The real frustration for me
| comes from brands that fail to size their clothes properly.
| How hard is it to make all jeans models of _your_ brand to
| measure the same waist-wise and length-wise?
| OJFord wrote:
| Pretty hard when they're 'brands' and not actually making
| anything, I imagine.
| Nasrudith wrote:
| The one assertion is rather questionable. In fact I struggle to
| find a context where it makes sense.
|
| > In contemporary "ruin porn" photography, the empty shells of
| malls represent the just deserts of late-stage capitalism.
|
| Put aside the questionable ascribing of meaning to a photographic
| genre that has included everything from abandoned hospitals and
| schools to abandoned factories. Even by the standards of the
| leftist fundamentalist concept of late-stage capitalism
| (implicitly playing prophet declaring doom against foes). A mere
| collection of failures after a profitible heyday is supposed to
| be some sort of just retribution?
| bombcar wrote:
| Yeah, those sets of photos are just as often large projects or
| other "commieblock"-style buildings, so you could say they're
| an inditement of modern socialism or something.
|
| I think it's much simpler, people like looking at ruins.
| lxe wrote:
| Let's not forget the safety factor as well. Mall shootings are a
| thing, especially in the "dying" malls. No matter the strategy,
| families avoid places with violent crime.
| jrnichols wrote:
| This is the #1 problem for our local malls. the gangs that have
| decided the mall is their turf and causing criminal activities
| in and around it. car thefts, catalytic converter thefts,
| strong-arm robberies outside, etc. People don't want to go to
| the mall because they're sitting ducks for the criminal element
| that surrounds it.
| kube-system wrote:
| I have found that (some) malls can be a good place to work
| remote. I can grab some food, a latte, get in a quick walk, and
| do a bit of shopping at the end of my work day. There's a variety
| of places to sit and wifi is generally just fine (and even better
| if there's a Starbucks in the mall).
|
| If I owned a mall right now, I'd be focusing on this angle.
| [deleted]
| zeruch wrote:
| Hopefully no, and good riddance.
|
| As edifices, they are better suited to being campuses for any
| number of other things, and the sooner we get out of the habit of
| creating endless ziggurats for mindless bland LCD consumerism the
| better.
|
| I'm all for the model of town/city planning that actually builds
| communities and neighborhoods; use the building for affordable
| art studios, performing spaces, community centers, small business
| incubation, etc. Pure feckless retail doesn't cut it.
| jotjotzzz wrote:
| Most American malls are so badly designed -- they aren't places
| where people are hanging out but just shopping and leaving. Well,
| most folks shop online nowadays, what's the point of coming to
| the mall? There's no place to sit or talk or create a community.
| kube-system wrote:
| When I was a kid in the US, the mall was _the #1_ place to hang
| out. We could see a movie, grab some food, and browse some
| clothing stores, and our parents knew where to find us.
|
| I suppose this is less of an advantage with cell phones these
| days, and teenagers don't really have much disposable income.
| brigade wrote:
| How long ago? Malls have spent the last two decades
| discouraging or even outright banning teenage loiterers.
| kube-system wrote:
| Yeah, they have. But I still see kids hanging out at malls
| in my area, although well behaved and in not in gigantic
| groups.
| tdumitrescu wrote:
| This past weekend I found myself in a mall in the East Bay
| (Bishop Ranch in San Ramon) and holy carp was it bumping with
| people, like a mall from before the before times. A big open
| central courtyard with families hanging out all over this fake
| grass, kids riding the escalator to gawk at people from the
| second level, I was like "what year is this?" A lot of the shops
| and restaurants were more bougie than those of past malls, there
| was a big Williams Sonoma, eating options included The Slanted
| Door, Mendocino Farms, Delarosa Pizza, so a far cry from the
| Sbarro and Cinnabon style of the classic mall. Maybe that's their
| secret.
| phpthrowaway99 wrote:
| It's the location. San Ramon is a great town. Stick that same
| mall in Modesto, CA and it would be something else entirely.
| hindsightbias wrote:
| You wouldn't know there's a recession at any of the Home
| Depots. Still short of cashiers.
| jkeddo wrote:
| I suspect malls will be more economically viable in developing
| countries than in the first world. Payroll at $15 an hour is a
| high bar to meet for outlet stores which already struggle with
| high rent.
| bcrosby95 wrote:
| It's interesting how much of my childhood is obsolete these days.
| Malls, arcades, and theaters.
| standardUser wrote:
| I'd be hard-pressed to imagine a reason I would ever step foot
| in an old-fashioned indoor mall again. But arcades and
| theaters? They are thriving. Look at the spread of arcade bars
| in every hip American city and college town, and the popularity
| of Alamo Drafthouse and other alternative movie theaters. It's
| not the same as in the 80's and 90's, though I'd argue theater
| and arcade options are actually much better now.
| kube-system wrote:
| Alcohol seems to be the common factor in those thriving
| establishments, and unfortunately for malls, alcohol probably
| doesn't mix well with an indoor mall format.
| usbfingers wrote:
| I assume financially this would probably not be feasible or
| sustainable everywhere but I really wish malls could lean further
| into theme parks rather than shopping hubs
|
| Most of them are half way there with movie theaters, arcades,
| etc. I recently went to one with an attached Medieval Times.
|
| I'm curious how much filling in laser tag, rock climbing, and
| other in person only activities would generate turnout.
| mgkimsal wrote:
| > lean further into theme parks rather than shopping hubs
|
| And yet, it's still 'shopping' in a sense. You're mostly just
| buying experiences vs buying 'stuff'.
| ctur wrote:
| The Decoder Ring podcast did an episode[1] recently about the
| supposed death of the mall. It's a fun listen and covers a lot of
| the history and evolution of the mall as a concept and how it
| shaped, and was shaped by, transportation changes in the US. It
| also goes into the social importance they have had over the years
| and how that has evolved.
|
| [1] - https://slate.com/podcasts/decoder-ring/2022/07/is-the-
| shopp...
| JohnFen wrote:
| If the American mall goes into the dustbin of history, would that
| be a good or bad thing overall? I lean toward "good".
| asdff wrote:
| They seem to do pretty well in the denser parts of socal.
| Glendale even has two across the street from eachother, each with
| a separate apple store. I'm not sure what the secret sauce is for
| southern californian malls. Denser population perhaps?
| Better/unique food options drawing people into the mall just for
| that?
| bilsbie wrote:
| Has anyone else found large indoor spaces just feel kind of
| artificial? I always got a weird vibe from malls. I'm not sure
| how to explain it.
| midislack wrote:
| What's that law where you can answer any headline question with
| "no?"
| askafriend wrote:
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Betteridge%27s_law_of_headline...
| Nasrudith wrote:
| Bertridge's law of headlines. Malls have been doing just fine
| at the high end boutique level though, at least last I checked.
| seanmcdirmid wrote:
| I'm my area we have high end and ethnic malls, both
| approaches do well but ethnic (eg Chinese, Filipino) needs
| much cheaper rent to thrive.
| classified wrote:
| *Betteridge*
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Betteridge's_law_of_headlines
| slothtrop wrote:
| Those are the only variation I see around now. Unless you
| could strip-malls, which do fine owing to
| density/accessibility.
| lampshades wrote:
| We have outdoor malls around Atlanta that are incredibly active.
|
| We also have Lenox where people get shot over shoes on what seems
| like a weekly basis. It's still very pretty active, though.
| honkycat wrote:
| "Hey honey, do you want to go to the giant aircraft hanger filled
| with stores that sells junk we don't want, surrounded by a giant
| parking lot? Maybe we can go to one of the chain restaurants
| inside staffed by people who don't give a shit, and have a
| microwaved slice of pizza!"
|
| Or I can go have a nice hike in the park, go to an actual
| restaurant afterwards, and buy the shit I don't need off of
| amazon.
|
| For me the greatest disdain I have for malls is the lack of green
| space. I spend all day indoors. I don't want to go to a larger,
| more expensive room.
| csdvrx wrote:
| Yes. I love going to the mall and spending a good half day there.
| And I see lots of people now that the pandemic is over. This may
| not be representative of the introvert male FANG coder who lurks
| on HN - it helps I'm not that lol
|
| Also, saying "things will be fine" don't write cool articles for
| the new republic, while doom and gloom certainly does.
| anotherrandom wrote:
| For general commerce? No, malls are dead in that respect. Online
| shopping will dance circles around it in 100 out of 100
| universes.
|
| For purposes like food, entertainment, physical arts, social
| functions, and very niche goods you may not find as much of
| online?
|
| That is where the mall may pivot to survive.
| bluedino wrote:
| Our local mall has been bought, bankrupted, and auctioned off
| every couple years for the last 20.
|
| There's a Macys and a JC Penny as the anchor stores. The old
| Sears was a COVID testing center for a while, now it has been
| turned into a Halloween store for the season.
|
| The food court once had Subway, Panda Express, McDonald's, and
| Taco Bell. They're all long gone, there is a Bourbon Chicken,
| cookie place, and a pizza place where the Sbarro was. They
| flipped the signs around but kept all the pictures and menus.
|
| Inside, it's about half-empty. They've been trying to attract
| smaller mom and pop stores, but it has had the side effect of
| giving the place a "flea market" feel.
|
| The next town over has mall that's doing a lot better. There's a
| Target, Barnes and Noble, Planet Fitness, and a much more vibrant
| food court. There's still only about half occupancy when it comes
| to the stores, but the parking lot doesn't look like there's been
| and earthquake and the bathrooms aren't disgusting.
|
| There was a push to convert the empty anchor stores to office
| space, but with WFH that option is off the table.
| twblalock wrote:
| They should turn them into housing. Charge extra for the unit
| that has the escalator. It would be hilariously fun to live in
| an old mall as long as the walls were good enough that I didn't
| hear my neighbors.
| snarf21 wrote:
| I think we need to re-think and re-zone these. I think the
| anchor stores could be great senior living centers for
| independent and assisted living. The stores could all become
| medical and senior focused stores. You have a nice area for
| walking and being active, etc.
|
| You could also do the same as low-income apartments where
| people have all the stores they would frequent without needing
| public transport or bus/Uber to get the things they need. It
| could also have job training and other services as needed.
| bluedino wrote:
| Putting low income apartments near in or near the mall would
| drive people away and increase crime.
| quartz wrote:
| It's kind of fun to see all the new takes on malls. In/around NYC
| we have a few that I actually use:
|
| - Hudson Yards - a pretty good destination with a small kid on a
| rainy day and easy to get to via the subway. Big and open, has a
| Camp store (with slide and play area), good sit down and take-
| away food options, and surrounded by some fun outdoor city stuff
| (my son LOVES watching the train yard across the street, and the
| highline is right there).
|
| - American Dream in NJ - More like an indoor collection of
| amusement parks, we use the Legoland Experience and the Aquarium
| reasonably often and when my son is a little older we'll likely
| use the Nickelodeon theme park and the indoor water park which
| looks pretty fun. This poor place opened right at the start of
| the pandemic, hope it survives.
|
| - Ridge Hill in Yonkers - Sort of an outdoor mall... has another
| Legoland experience, but also a pretty good mini golf and arcade
| (it's really hard to find a good arcade for little kids in NYC)
| and a trampoline park we might get to try one day.
|
| What really makes these malls work is they have unique and fun
| experiences rather than just the typical department-store-
| anchored "get your daily errands done like it's 1980 and amazon
| doesn't exist" experiences.
|
| I do miss the malls of my youth (RIP South Square [1]), but
| economically most of those stores don't make any sense anymore
| and I don't see why they'd come back. I'm sure not going to start
| driving to a mall to go to a Radio Shack anymore.
|
| [1] https://www.opendurham.org/buildings/south-square
| post_break wrote:
| The American Dream is going to go belly up soon if I had to
| guess: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-3ZcFguYn3U
| quartz wrote:
| It really was constructed strangely (feels like an 80s mall
| in the darker corridors).
|
| I feel like the actual attractions are cool but the
| connections between them are not inviting in a way that makes
| you want to explore our stick around.
| tricolon wrote:
| and then there's the World Trade Center
| spread_love wrote:
| lol no one goes to Hudson Yards. They were banking on tourists
| and (The Vessel is closed) and commercial leases. 36% of office
| space is empty, highest in Midtown [1]. The mall lost Neiman
| Marcus.
|
| pdf
| https://www.avisonyoung.us/documents/92404/1115504/AY+Q2+202...
| mmastrac wrote:
| We visited Hudson Yards a few months back and it was a
| beautiful area. Easy to get to, highly walkable and very
| friendly feeling.
| lokalfarm wrote:
| I grew up going to South Square too. Lots of fond memories.
| I've also been living near Northgate for the last decade or so,
| and that has been a depressing experience. Watching it decay,
| finally shut down, and some of the newer, more attractive
| nearby tenants like Planet Fitness now packing up shop has been
| incredibly saddening. I just hope Randy's Pizza and C&H
| Cafeteria will stick around, but it's more likely the entire
| strip with be torn down to be developed into condos that start
| at $2k/mo.
|
| I would love to see some of these spaces be repurposed for more
| affordable housing, which we desperately need, but it isn't
| "financially feasible" in the eyes of these developers [1].
|
| This recent news clip was almost hilariously blunt in the way
| things have been trending here [2].
|
| [1] https://indyweek.com/news/durham/northgate-mall-durham-
| rezon...
|
| [2] https://www.wral.com/local-business-owners-pushing-back-
| agai...
| alberth wrote:
| It's also been shown that Apple drives so much traffic to malls
| where they are located (incremental 10% higher total mall sales),
| that Apple is able to negotiate cheaper rent.
|
| https://www.businessinsider.in/tech/10-mind-blowing-facts-ab...
| kayodelycaon wrote:
| It's certainly the only reason I've ever gone to the mall
| around here.
| kwanbix wrote:
| Can I ask why? You don't buy things in malls anymore? Why?
| Thanks!
| analog31 wrote:
| I hate the parking and crowds, the filth, and hoping that
| some store will have something I want in my size. I can eat
| better food at home. Shopping in general is a stressful
| experience for me.
| rexf wrote:
| Depending on the mall (Westfield Valley Fair), parking
| can be so bad for many years now that we avoid the mall
| completely. While the parking lot can be near capacity
| (mall is popular), we still avoid it (parking is too hard
| to find).
| kayodelycaon wrote:
| What would I buy? My clothing isn't from any store in the
| mall. I don't wear jewelry. I'm allergic to most food in
| the food court. (Literally anywhere in Cincinnati has
| better food anyway.) IKEA, Target, and Microcenter are in
| easy driving distance. I can get a lot of stuff from
| Amazon.
|
| I do know everything in the mall. It's my backup location
| for walking when going to the park or zoo isn't a viable. I
| might stop by the LEGO store sometime, but would be an
| expensive mistake. Otherwise, there isn't any store that
| interests me.
| jedberg wrote:
| Everything I would ever buy in the mall can be found online
| for the same price or less, and I don't have to leave my
| house and deal with parking.
| ghaff wrote:
| Well are dead-ish to dead malls and then there are malls that
| are doing pretty well and then there are luxury malls. You
| tend to see mall Apple stores in the middle category; even
| though they're not traditional anchor stores they effectively
| are.
|
| Meanwhile, the former category has/had anchor stores like in
| the case of local mall such as it is at this point like
| Sears, JC Penney, and Macys.
| thepasswordis wrote:
| Wow. I just realized the same.
| dasil003 wrote:
| That's impressive, but on reflection it makes sense: these days
| we can buy almost anything we want with a couple taps of our
| phone, unless... our phone is broken.
| mdasen wrote:
| And Apple often does in-store repairs in around an hour. Not
| enough time that you want to go home and come back, but
| enough time that you'll wander around the mall.
| thewebcount wrote:
| Plus, Apple does a bunch of other stuff to attract people
| to their stores. They have in-store classes on all of their
| products. They have the Genius Bar to answer questions.
| There's stuff to do there besides just buying the latest
| thing. You can also learn how to use the thing you bought,
| or the thing you already have. Good luck finding a sales
| clerk at the likes of Best Buy or, back in the day, Sears,
| who can actually tell you how to adjust the
| TV/washer/dryer/microwave/dishwasher/etc. that you
| purchased there. All they're interested in is selling the
| product, getting the sweet add-on of extended warranties
| and getting you out of the store so they can upsell the
| next person.
| GenerocUsername wrote:
| The malls in my area that have died over the last 20 years all
| share 1 thing in common... violence.
|
| I will not go to a mall that has 6 shootings a year.
| bluedino wrote:
| We had way more violence at malls in the 90's when malls were
| far more popular.
| GenerocUsername wrote:
| 'Were'
|
| That's the thing with decline... Something WAS good until it
| wasn't.
| jafo wrote:
| The mall near where I grew up suffered from that problem 50
| years ago, and was shut down by the late 1970s...
| tenebrisalietum wrote:
| And was finally demolished in 2012.
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dixie_Square_Mall
| jafo wrote:
| I'd argue it was actually demolished in 1980[1].
|
| [1]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IIdGxR-aU6o
| kube-system wrote:
| I suspect violence is not the cause of the demise of those
| malls, but one of many symptoms of the root cause.
|
| Malls generally have retailers that are more expensive than big
| box or strip mall alternatives. Lower income neighborhoods have
| both more violence and more residents with a preference for
| value pricing.
| bombcar wrote:
| > I will not go to a mall that has 6 shootings a year.
|
| Agreed, a mall needs to be up around 12 shootings a year to
| even be considered these days.
| GenerocUsername wrote:
| ' const mallsIMightGoTo = mallsInMyArea.filter(mall =>
| mall.shootings_last_year < 6) ... '
| polycaster wrote:
| Funny title. Funny because perspective. In my (European) home
| town people are worried if old-established retail on high street
| can survive now that an (American-style) mall opened gates
| outside the city center recently. So, yes, I can relate somehow.
| kzrdude wrote:
| Sweden's already been through that. Now both malls and the
| inner city shops are dying.
| lotsofpulp wrote:
| If you were to get the standard grouping of
| Costco/Target/Walmart/IKEA/Best Buy/Home
| Depot/Lowes/Staples/Nordstrom Rack stores near that mall, then
| the mall would also be threatened.
|
| Those businesses I listed have optimized delivering the most
| commonly needed items, and then the internet came along and
| provided access to the uncommonly needed items. So the mall is
| not needed for the uncommon items, and they cannot compete on
| margins for the common items at the other stores I mentioned,
| so they have no use.
| bombcar wrote:
| Some malls (the smarter ones?) have integrated those stores
| listed into the malls themselves; I've certainly seen Target,
| Walmart, Best Buy, Staples, Nordstrom Rack, and IKEA built
| into a mall. Even more if you consider "strip malls" to be
| malls.
| tharne wrote:
| The better question is, "Should it?". Malls are awful and in
| their heyday, they decimated downtowns and small businesses. Good
| riddance.
| NickC25 wrote:
| I have no reason to think it can't - but the whole premise of
| malls needs to change. Outside of hyper-specialized, specific
| products (niche hobbyist sort of things) that require hands-on
| use/experience before purchase, it's impossible to compete with
| Amazon on general retail, so malls need to provide an experience.
| However, those same specific products and the like aren't big
| money-makers and can't sustain a large retail operation (for the
| most part - I'm excluding things like Tesla storefronts).
|
| I've seen malls with amusement rides, mini-golf, arcades, rock
| climbing walls, mom-and-pop food halls, etc. Those are the malls
| of the future. Nobody is going to congregate around big-box
| clothing stores or CD/DVD stores, or chain restaurants with
| crappy food.
|
| I would personally love to see a mall built around community
| experiences - think cooking classes, LAN gaming centers,
| woodworking classes, gyms, etc..
| slaymaker1907 wrote:
| I think you really underestimate the value of physical stores.
| For example, browsing for books on Amazon is much more
| inefficient in my experience than just going to a physical
| bookstore. Sure, you can preview the text for books on Amazon,
| but I doubt it's ever going to be as seamless as picking up a
| physical book and reading the first few paragraphs.
| darth_avocado wrote:
| That is exactly the solution. I remember when I used to live in
| a country outside of the US, the first time a mall came to my
| city. It was built around a community experience. It was a
| place where people used to go, just like the park, to hang out.
| There was no obligation to spend any money. We'd hang out after
| school every day for a few years. Sometimes we spent money,
| sometimes we didn't. The time we stopped going, which kind of
| aligned with overall decline of the space, was when they tried
| to turn every square inch of the mall into a revenue generating
| piece of real estate.
|
| The most popular malls had community spaces. There were events
| for kids, there were spaces to hang out, there were sports
| being broadcast on the wall for free, the mall itself was an
| indoor + outdoor experience with plenty of green space, there
| were gyms, an entire lobby of pool tables and other games (you
| had to surrender an id to play, but otherwise it was free). So
| many attractions that would bring people over again and again
| while driving up business naturally.
| irrational wrote:
| Our local mall had a Tesla storefront. It moved out into an
| abandoned Toys R Us on the other side of the freeway. Bad for
| the mall, but good that an abandoned building got a new lease
| on life.
| sleton38234234 wrote:
| Absolutely. something that's missing, is opportunities for
| enrichment. why is there no woodworking classes? or just
| general purpose learning classes for building stuff like houses
| or roofs. i'd love to learn how to set up a well, or build my
| own hand operated water heating tank, etc. Or at least offer a
| downtown vibe with live music, farmers market, and interesting
| cafes and museums. I don't want to see a huge parking area
| filled to brim with cars and heat stroke enducing pavement as
| far as the eye can see.
|
| most malls, all i see is a sea of materialistic nonsense big
| box stores. i'll never visit those: and all conglomerates can
| wonder why no one goes there until the end of time.
| hourago wrote:
| Brand stores also seem very popular, just look at Apple. Maybe
| you will buy your $1K phone on-line but you may want to take a
| look at it somewhere.
|
| Many people goes to a shop to look at products and then buy
| them on-line. That is not sustainable as the shop has the high-
| cost of physical presence but it is losing business to on-line.
|
| Alibaba is not going to open big stores for people to peruse
| around nor is Amazon. So, the only ones interested in showing
| product for free to users are the makers of that products.
|
| Even with very generous return policies is a pain in the ass to
| buy things and return them back again and again because they
| are not exactly what you wanted. To go to the store and browse
| all products in one sit is not only more efficient but many
| people enjoys the experience.
| [deleted]
| throwaway1777 wrote:
| The idea it's impossible to compete with Amazon is a fallacy.
| suoduandao2 wrote:
| Can you share a counterexample?
| jjtheblunt wrote:
| Walmart? Target? Both generally going strong (Target
| stumbled lately) for decades, I think.
| [deleted]
| Tagbert wrote:
| Buying clothing on Amazon is a crap shoot. You don't know what
| the fit is like and, while returns are allowed, it is not a
| simple process. You also don't know much about the quality of
| the item or if it even resembles the item advertised. Things
| are quite as dire as buying clothing from a Facebook advertiser
| but there is still a risk.
|
| Buying from a brick and mortar store will usually let you try
| on the item and you can see and feel if it is what you want.
| Returns are relatively simple, too.
| ryukoposting wrote:
| All of what you said is true, but are American Eagle, Gap,
| Abercrombie, H&M, Uniqlo, and Old Navy sufficiently unique
| from each other as to justify all of them having floor space
| in the same mall? Not really. Two or three of them makes more
| sense.
|
| Your point holds up well for stores with higher-quality
| offerings (e.g. Nordstrom, J.Crew, or Express), where it's
| always worth your time to shop around, see things in-person,
| and try them on.
|
| Of course, some clothing stores have a more narrowly-defined
| target demographic, and thus they are immune from fast-
| fashion redundancy (e.g. Torrid, Hot Topic).
| codegeek wrote:
| You nailed it. Whenever I do visit a Mall especially with my
| younger kids, the attraction is more about the Fun and Social
| stuff than those boring stores. Yes, unless you are big into
| buying things in person or luxury stuff, Amazon has pretty much
| replaced most mundane stuff. Food, there are restaurants and
| Mall is not the right attraction for food.
|
| Mall is more of a social place where we need to bring back the
| "it's cool and fun to hang at the mall" vibe. Whichever mall
| can do that successfully, it is a win.
| witherk wrote:
| God I hope this is the way. I think this is happening to some
| degree, but malls also seem to have grown into the niche of
| selling veblen goods. I swear half of the floorspace seems to
| be jewelry stores.
| ryukoposting wrote:
| I was back in my hometown recently for the first time in years,
| and I was shocked to see that my childhood mall was busier than
| I had ever seen it.
|
| The end-cap Sears carcass has been demolished. Apartments are
| being built in its place, with a private breezeway connecting
| them to the mall.
|
| Two adjacent large stalls are now an enormous arcade and
| bowling alley. A stand-up comedy venue has replaced Ruby
| Tuesday. There's an escape room now, indoor bunjee jumping, and
| a dance studio too. A deaf people's advocacy group has a neat
| little cultural center.
|
| There's a bunch of new, huge sculptures in the large center
| area. Someone finally had the presence of mind to install some
| seating. The big sculptures deaden some of the noise. It's a
| genuinely pleasant place to just sit, socialize, and people
| watch.
|
| The big multi-level carousel is still there. Sadly, they took
| down the huge steel-cable jungle gym, but the one they replaced
| it with looks a lot friendlier to toddlers.
|
| For my entire childhood, half the food court stalls were empty.
| The other half were bland fast food. Today, all the stalls are
| filled, and the available options span many cultures.
|
| Despite all this, a lot of things are pretty much the same. The
| retail is still there, there's just fewer redundant stores.
| Almost every store that remains has an obvious reason for its
| physical existence.
|
| Conceptually, malls still make sense. They will always make
| sense, as long as buildings that share walls with each other
| are cheaper and more energy-efficient. In order to survive, a
| mall must find ways to make people want to visit the mall.
| adam_arthur wrote:
| You already see this a lot with the upscale outdoor malls. e.g.
| the Domain in Austin. These places are always crowded and
| popular... and tend to have more up and coming brands/niche
| stores rather than copy/paste main brands.
|
| Fundamentally, people like to go outside and hang out, even if
| there's not a compelling economic reason for doing so (online
| is cheaper/more practical).
|
| So I don't think the "mall type" experience will ever die, just
| needs to be a higher quality experience, as you said.
|
| Also the rents in these older malls will drop dramatically
| which either leads to repurposing the space (apartment
| conversion) or previously uneconomical business models starting
| to work (big box retail again)
| EricE wrote:
| I grew up going to this mall during it's peak in the 70's and
| early 80's, and I think it's done a fascinating job of
| adapting: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BegXB3d6cqk
|
| The indoor swap meet is what used to be a JC Penny's. The dead
| Sears is now a trade school - the mix of stores in there is
| fascinating and I think the key - focus on unique and local
| stores. Leave the chains to the strip malls.
| Loughla wrote:
| I've spent the last 5 years arguing with one of the colleges
| that I consult with about just that. They are trying to grow
| their adult education/community education (think GED, ESL, and
| 'interest classes' like woodworking, cooking, etc).
|
| I have said for at least 5 years they need to rent (cheap) the
| space in the nearly defunct mall. It's right in the middle of
| town, with multiple bus routes. It's within walking distance of
| the community housing where elderly/low income folks live. It's
| perfect.
|
| But they won't go for it because "the optic of us living in a
| retail space is not good". That's a quote from one of the
| administrators.
|
| I don't get it. Community/junior colleges could absolutely
| saturate that kind of space with community based and
| educational events.
| arkitaip wrote:
| They are probably right about the optics. Who would want to
| take, say, craft classes inside a dying building symbolizing
| the cons of modern life.
| toast0 wrote:
| Someone who is on a bus route that goes to the mall
| (typically, lots of routes will go to the mall, there may
| be a transit center there as well), or wants to take a
| class but not deal with the expense and congestion of
| college parking lots. Mall parking lots can be congested
| too, but when the mall is struggling to get tenants, their
| parking lots are mostly empty and easy to use.
| function_seven wrote:
| The building isn't dying. The businesses that once occupied
| it are.
|
| If you move into it, and have an active student body there
| every day, then it's not dead anymore, right? It's thriving
| with activity.
|
| The people wanting to take craft classes are probably not
| going to ruminate over whether the classroom they're in was
| once a Foot Locker. I mean, as long as you aren't lazy
| about converting the space (i.e. take down the old signage
| and ditch the black and white stripes).
|
| Look at the sibling comment to yours. There's a short video
| about Austin's CC. The place looks great!
| Groxx wrote:
| Personally, and for many family friends who live where I
| grew up, near a smallish mall that has been dead for over a
| decade: tons of people. We'd all love to see the space
| being used, rather than rotting slowly. There was a lot of
| community activity when it temporarily reopened for a few
| events and as an indoor walking space (in between events)
| several years ago.
|
| edit: bulldozing it and putting something else in that
| place would also be fine, but that costs a fair bit. and
| really, even just having _a big indoor walking space_ was
| quite popular, there were several meetups using it, lots of
| elderly walkers and readers, etc. it was nowhere near as
| popular as a Walmart of course, but it transformed into a
| pseudo-public space for a while and it made me realize that
| "indoor parks" are kinda not a thing, but maybe they should
| be. particularly in places with a lot of rain or cold.
|
| that, and a big rotting building in the middle of town is
| rather unambiguously worse optics for the area than even
| small use. it inevitably gets covered in graffiti and
| damage, and even minor use prevents that a lot.
| philwelch wrote:
| > it made me realize that "indoor parks" are kinda not a
| thing, but maybe they should be. particularly in places
| with a lot of rain or cold
|
| Or heat.
| pnutjam wrote:
| A colocation space took over one of ours for a data
| center. It's nice inside, but the outside is still a
| dump, probably worse then before. It's an eyesore and
| there is no investment in the community or the area
| around the data center.
| bee_rider wrote:
| That's interesting. It makes sense of course -- the data
| center isn't selling to customers who come in via foot
| traffic, so why beautify the outside? A data center seems
| a bit interesting from a zoning point of view for that
| reason -- not incentivized to beautify; but not as bad as
| industrial, not a ton of possibly dangerous waste
| products...
|
| I guess a not-actively-damaging source of tax revenue is
| always welcome in a town.
| JohnFen wrote:
| Presumably, they'd fix it up so it's not a dying building
| -- and it wouldn't symbolize the cons of modern life
| anymore. It would symbolize building a future in more ways
| than one.
| robg wrote:
| Sounds like they need to see new optics. How about a field
| trip to malls that have been converted?
| mchristen wrote:
| Austin Community College has done this and it's amazing.
|
| https://www.austincc.edu/campuses/highland-campus
| wbobeirne wrote:
| I think there's a big difference between being in the mall,
| and acquiring a mall and gutting it. I didn't see the
| shopping center it was before, but the ACC building is
| really nice and looks like it was completely renovated from
| what it was previously.
| usefulcat wrote:
| That's correct. The space that ACC acquired previously
| looked exactly like a typical mall, and was probably
| built in the 60s or 70s.
| selimthegrim wrote:
| I went to this mall for a New Year's party when it was in
| the process of closing. Didn't seem any different from
| any other of its age.
| namelessoracle wrote:
| Community colleges in my area have been taking over and
| converting old and dying malls slowly.
|
| The real issue is the issue everyone has these days. The rent
| is too high. What business does enough to justify giving the
| mall it's cut?
| spaghettiToy wrote:
| sleton38234234 wrote:
| and why is the rent so high? because land costs are too
| high (this can be addressed, simply open up more land to be
| developed until the price drops to near zero). as for
| building costs? these can come down too, with the right
| regulations/ and lack thereof, we can make it legal for
| lower cost options to arise.
| babypuncher wrote:
| Just opening up more land for development is not an easy
| solution.
|
| Environmental problems aside, America's car culture is
| rather incompatible with this solution. Endless suburban
| expansion is what lead to the enormous traffic problems
| currently being faced in Los Angeles and Houston. My home
| state is well on its way to having this same unsolvable
| problem by the end of the decade.
| [deleted]
| pstuart wrote:
| Fight the good fight! Other comments are validating you, so
| keep on wearing 'em down.
| throwaway1851 wrote:
| > it's impossible to compete with Amazon on general retail
|
| Uh, I don't know about that. Just not being a weird bazaar
| filled with garbage differentiates a store from Amazon.
|
| My family used to buy everything from Amazon, but after an
| accretion of negative experiences, it's almost nothing.
| Anything that goes on or in the body is out -- can't be
| trusted! I've even stopped buying computer peripherals after
| receiving a spate of counterfeit devices "shipped and sold by
| Amazon". I still use them for things like basic office
| supplies, but that's about it.
| treis wrote:
| They already have. Most new malls (at least in my area) are a
| sort of fake downtown with retail on the first level and
| apartments above. They are more restaurant heavy and have lawns
| and such for events.
| RajT88 wrote:
| The malls out by me which are dying are slowly moving to this
| model.
|
| I think it's a great idea. There are plenty of working
| examples of housing/retail where people never have to leave
| indoors to get all their basic needs taken care of.
|
| There's of course megamalls out by me as well, which are
| doing just fine and don't need to evolve. One is in a wealthy
| suburb, and has a shopping tourism industry which props up
| the local hotels on the weekends when business travel is low.
| bee_rider wrote:
| Is it really a fake downtown? I mean, if people are living
| there and retail is there, it is a real I guess... just,
| intentionally/artificially constructed (we can pick a
| adjective to fit whatever spin we want to put on it).
| usefulcat wrote:
| 'Fake' in the sense of having been designed to be a sort of
| downtown-ish space, as compared to real downtown areas that
| evolved more organically. I've seen what your parent
| commenter is referring to; it looks a lot like like living
| at a mall.
| bee_rider wrote:
| Yeah, I get what you mean, I just think artificial is a
| better word.
|
| Lots of "real" downtowns are also intentional -- they are
| just the product of zoning and lobbying by local
| businesses. That something has been designed doesn't make
| it fake. Places with dense population are attractive for
| shops, places with good shop access are attractive to
| live in, and there's a feedback loop there. The degree to
| which that feedback loop has been spurred on
| intentionally sits on a spectrum.
|
| For example if the apartment were entirely for show (not
| actually lived in) I would call that fake.
| treis wrote:
| Downtowns are usually central and towns organically
| formed around them. These are usually in random places
| and tend to be islands isolated from the rest of the
| city.
| babypuncher wrote:
| One of the malls where I live is making exactly this
| transition. Half the retail stores are already gone, replaced
| with various entertainment venues. A huge swath of the mall is
| now dedicated to restaurants. I don't mean a typical food
| court, but actual table service, bars, and fast-casual places
| with their own dedicated seating. Most of them aren't even
| national chains. The closest thing they do have to a food court
| is a "food hall" with an unusual layout and not a single Orange
| Julius or Panda Express in sight.
|
| The retail stores they seem to be keeping are less conventional
| too. One I spent some money at yesterday as a book and gift
| shop. They have a ton of vintage books and collectibles, and
| art from local artists. This is stuff that is a lot harder to
| buy online, and there is a persistent novelty factor that makes
| walking in the store a unique experience every time.
| spaceflunky wrote:
| I too believe this is the answer.
|
| In San Bruno, CA a portion of the mall there is dedicated to
| small experiences for children (a miniature play town, a bounce
| room, etc). I've taken my toddler there and it was pretty fun.
|
| Pure commoditized retail isn't going to cut it anymore. I think
| another component is that the rent is going to have to be very
| cheap in order to lower the bar to entry and encourage rapid
| innovations in this space. If I were Simon (or a similar
| property group), I might dedicate a certain percentage of my
| mall spaces to "incubate" these new ideas by offer cheap or
| nearly free rent.
| notakio wrote:
| There was a place in North Texas (Frisco or Plano) that had a
| miniature indoor town, where kids could play as various
| professions, from hair stylist to firefighter to banker and
| other things. It struck me as a pretty neat use of what used
| to be a multi-story department store space, though there
| wasn't much geared toward my daughter who was two at the
| time. Still, making use of the fairly-recently built space
| instead of just abandoning it seemed like a decent ethical
| choice, and they seemed to be doing OK, despite the ongoing
| pandemic.
| quantumwannabe wrote:
| Sounds like KidZania:
|
| https://dallas.kidzaniausa.com/
|
| https://g.page/KidZaniaUSA
| spaceflunky wrote:
| KidZania is next level tho. Absolutely insane
| dkasper wrote:
| Tanforan failed so hard it's getting torn down to become
| office space. Not exactly a great example.
| spaceflunky wrote:
| Yeah, it's not super well executed by any means and its
| relegated to a very small section of the mall, but I still
| believe the idea is good and could be successful if
| nurtured correctly.
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