[HN Gopher] Companies are hacking their way around the chip shor...
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Companies are hacking their way around the chip shortage
Author : jacquesm
Score : 70 points
Date : 2022-09-11 01:28 UTC (1 days ago)
(HTM) web link (www.wired.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.wired.com)
| honkycat wrote:
| I follow news from the boutique modular synthesizer space, and it
| has been a BLOODBATH lately.
|
| The legendary OP-1 was recently discontinued. Prices are going
| through the roof. Multiple popular modular synth companies have
| closed up shop recently due to the chip shortage.
|
| What can I say, it sucks!
| kennywinker wrote:
| The OP-1 is a bad example. It was discontinued because they
| replaced it with the OP-1 field - essentially the same thing
| but with a few feature tweaks.
|
| But the bloodbath is real. Companies are shutting down (WMD,
| synthesizers.com), delaying or killing products (bastl,
| dirtywave, behringer), and raising prices (moog).
|
| For the sake of the little guys who can't weather the storm
| much longer, I really hope this lets up asap!
|
| https://www.synthtopia.com/content/2022/07/12/supply-chain-i...
| honkycat wrote:
| Ahh, I see! For some reason I thought the "field" was the
| TX-6.
| NelsonMinar wrote:
| Starlink provides a router with their ISP package. For the last
| year the router comes without an ethernet port. Wireless only.
| They've never said why but I assume it's because of a chip
| shortage. (There is an add-on for ethernet you can order for a
| modest price.)
|
| ResMed started selling a version of their popular AirSense 10
| AutoSet sleep apnea machine without a cellular modem. Normally
| the product uploads treatment data to some cloud service that
| ResMed then resells to your doctor. Again they haven't said
| explicitly but it sounds like they couldn't source the part they
| needed, so did without. (Hilariously the branding for this is
| "Card-to-Cloud", as in "you carry an SD card to your PC and
| upload the data manually to the cloud".)
|
| I guess what bugs me is these companies are selling things with
| important features removed but aren't acknowledging they are
| lesser products.
| dylan604 wrote:
| >some cloud service that ResMed then resells to your doctor.
|
| Why would they resell to the doctor, or why would the doctor be
| buying the info? Seems like the user should be the one charged
| for the data that could then be shared with their doctor. I
| just don't see the business sense for it being purchased by the
| docs unless the docs just turn around and upcharge the patient?
| bluesquared wrote:
| I've commented on this before on HN. I have sleep apnea and a
| ResMed CPAP. A very US-centric response:
|
| Insurance also seems to have access to this data in one way
| or another (not sure if direct with ResMed or via your
| doctor). If you don't hit your "compliance target" for
| treatment, insurance will cease paying 'their share' of the
| cost.
|
| So I found myself in a downward spiral of 0. Struggling to
| sleep with sleep apnea. Tons of ramifications of not getting
| good sleep that I don't need to get into. 1. Struggling to
| adapt to sleeping with this device strapped to my face. I
| would take it off unconsciously.. I would often find the hose
| laying next to me in the morning still "pumping", or be told
| by my wife of belligerent (unconscious) responses to her
| prompting me to put it back on in the middle of the night. 2.
| Losing sleep from constantly waking up throughout the night
| because of the CPAP/from anxiety 3. Anxiety over not meeting
| my compliance target of 4 hours of use per night (as
| interpreted by the CPAP knowing the proper amount of back-
| pressure when in use i.e. not just turned on and not worn).
| 4. Getting charged more because I did not meet my targets for
| enough time 5. Eventually owning the CPAP outright 6.
| Eventually discontinuing therapy and somehow having slightly
| improved levels of sleep that I've never bothered to attempt
| to restart therapy
| NelsonMinar wrote:
| I'm so sorry you've gone through this, that sounds
| miserable. When you feel up for it I hope you can seek
| treatment again.
|
| For context for other readers: the cost of one of these
| machines is about $800. That's a very small amount of
| money, often less than a single month's insurance premium.
| And for that the insurance companies turn medical treatment
| devices into anxiety-inducing spy machines. It's hideous.
| Fiahil wrote:
| > 800 [...] That's a very small amount of money, often
| less than a single month's insurance premium.
|
| Jesus fucking christ, what the fuck ?! How much does
| health insurance cost in the US ?
| missedthecue wrote:
| Is this really the first time on the internet that you've
| encountered a discussion about US healthcare costs?
| sp332 wrote:
| I am American, and that sounds really high.
| NelsonMinar wrote:
| Prices vary widely and many Americans have no idea
| because their employer pays it.
|
| You can shop California's market yourself; try 94114 for
| San Francisco. https://www.coveredca.com/
|
| For a 30 year old it's $400 to $1100 a month depending on
| coverage level. A mediocre "Silver" plan is $400 at age
| 20 to $1060 at age 65, at which point you qualify for
| nationalized healthcare.
| bluesquared wrote:
| I pay ~$500/month for "pretty good" health insurance, and
| my employer pays roughly the same (a "benefit" that the
| employer pays 'half'! /s )
|
| And then you have to pay small fees when you go visit a
| doctor ($25-ish each time), pay for medications
| (expensive). Emergency room swipes your credit card
| before a doctor even sees you ($150 co-pay for my plan).
| Pay thousands for an MRI (that the insurance company has
| graciously negotiated down 95%!)
| bluesquared wrote:
| I have been having enough difficulty I've actually tried
| to restart in recent times. Vicious cycle of allergies
| and sleep deprivation make it hard to continue certain
| times of the year.
|
| It was a lesson to be learned, I was unaware when
| starting treatment that you could buy one outright. Being
| a 60601 medical device I thought I had to just go along
| for the ride...
| GiorgioG wrote:
| It took me weeks to get used to mine, but I find I do sleep
| better with it than without my CPAP machine. With respect
| to insurance, I replaced my original machine without going
| through insurance. It would have cost me more out of pocket
| for the doctor visit and on-site sleep study.
|
| The state of health "insurance" in this country is mind-
| boggling. But we continue to vote for politicians that vote
| against our own best interests. We need more than these two
| f'd up parties.
| alistairSH wrote:
| _We need more than these two f'd up parties._
|
| I've said it in other threads, but these "two f'd up
| parties" are the expected end result of our electoral
| system[1]. While we very occasionally see one of the
| parties replaced with an upstart, the parties eventually
| return to a similar status quo. Grassroots movements to
| implement run-off elections, approval voting, or other
| similar plans are seeing some traction. If you really
| want to see change, searching for these groups locally
| (and volunteering or donating) might be worth the effort.
|
| 1 - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duverger%27s_law
| x3n0ph3n3 wrote:
| If you haven't already, take a look at the Phillips
| Dreamwear. It is the least uncomfortable CPAP mask.
| hackernewds wrote:
| As someone who couldn't hit compliance either, any other
| sleep apnea solutions that have worked for you (or others?)
|
| (apologies about derailing into subthread)
| ianai wrote:
| For me, it's a combination of always ensuring my sinuses
| stay open and proper head placement for the mask to stay
| tight. Google "ayr gel" - I use the gel specifically. In
| dry periods or for congestion, that seems to (often) be
| enough to keep my sinuses open. For my current cpap mask
| I have to lay flat with no pillows for a proper fit. Then
| there's all the sleep hygiene stuff - no lights, proper
| bedroom temperature (cold), etc. (No lights means no
| lights - not even reflections from hall lights or the
| indicator lights from electronics can be tolerated.)
| bluesquared wrote:
| Sorry I can't be more helpful, as I have no good answer.
| I do have good periods and bad periods.
|
| Though not massively overweight (26.5 BMI), better eating
| and fitness habits seemed to have helped. Still working
| on getting to a healthier shape. Depending on the type of
| apnea, this can help a good deal.
|
| Less electronics/screens in the evening. No more
| streaming tv/video games until right before bed. Jury's
| still out on the effects of blue light etc but I really
| try to limit my electronics to a Kindle (Oasis with the
| warm color temp feature) before bed.
|
| I admit I didn't try too hard with different
| masks/setups, that could help. Though I was mostly using
| one of the most comfortable "nasal pillow" interfaces
| already.
|
| I will second another commenter's suggestion of a more
| elevated pillow setup. I use a regular pillow with a
| buckwheat hull pillow on top. Bad for my neck but I've
| slept that way for awhile and have adjusted, it's hard to
| go back to a "more optimal pillow height".
| NelsonMinar wrote:
| There's a couple of sleep apnea forums that might be
| helpful to you; I like http://www.apneaboard.com/
|
| Before I got my CPAP set up the one thing I found that
| really helped me was sleeping on an inclined pillow, up
| about 20 degrees. Not comfortable but helped me breathe.
| There are other treatments for sleep apnea if CPAP isn't
| working for you; some surgical options, oral appliances,
| fancier breathing machines. Worth talking to a sleep
| specialist doctor about.
| abduhl wrote:
| Well I broke up with my long term girlfriend and
| complaints about my sleep apnea stopped. Not sure if this
| approach is viable for you, but it will solve most
| peoples' sleep apnea problem (snoring annoying other
| people).
|
| Other good ideas are to try one of the mouth guards or a
| new pillow that keeps your head/throat area sort of
| tight.
| dylan604 wrote:
| >Well I broke up with my long term girlfriend and
| complaints about my sleep apnea stopped
|
| If we just stop testing people, the number of cases will
| go down.
|
| If you turn up the radio, that weird noise the car is
| making will go away.
| dylan604 wrote:
| >(apologies about derailing into subthread)
|
| this is the natural evolution of a conversation. i feel
| no apology should be necessary. taking a conversation to
| new related directions is often where that Aha! or
| Eureka! moment is found.
|
| personally, i find people that get upset and feel an
| apology is warranted are people i find quite boring to
| have a conversation with
| cagataygurturk wrote:
| Here in Germany, "Mandibular advancement splint"[1] is a
| popular device recommended by doctors for less severe
| apnea cases. I was diagnosed with a light apnea and now I
| am getting this device as my test results showed that a
| CPAP treatment would be overkill but this could help. I
| am afraid I can't share more experiences as I am waiting
| the device to be prepared after 2 hours of dentist visit
| where they took some measurements.
|
| [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mandibular_advancement_
| splint
| mitchdoogle wrote:
| >I just don't see the business sense for it being purchased
| by the docs unless the docs just turn around and upcharge the
| patient?
|
| Seems like you understand perfectly. The doctor is the one
| who can interpret the data, so they can ask their patient to
| come in for regular checkups and make sure everything is
| going great
| NelsonMinar wrote:
| I should clarify I'm talking about the American system.
| Doctors pay for access to ResMed data. It's a convenience;
| otherwise the patient has to carry the SD card into the
| doctor's office and hope they bother to upload and analyze
| it. (Yes, this is stupid.)
|
| While I'm at it, patients really interested in their sleep
| apnea data can use OSCAR or https://sleephq.com/ to analyze
| the data from the ResMed SD card themselves. These don't use
| the cloud service. ResMed also has a limited site for the
| patient themselves to see a limited version of their cloud
| data.
| walrus01 wrote:
| there is no shortage of 1000BaseT PHY and ethernet chips or you
| would see absolute chaos in the market of $50 to $150
| home/small office routers and ethernet switches. The sort of
| all-in-one CPU/RAM/ethernet chip that's built into a small
| router like the starlink one already implements ethernet it
| just needs the PHY to do it
|
| If mikrotik and ubiquiti can still source the chips to build
| $50 routers, which is the case, there is no extreme shortage
| that spacex could not handle through its own ability to find
| manufacturers and vendors.
|
| The starlink v2 terminal coming with a weird proprietary copper
| cable interface and wifi-only-to-clients is for entirely other
| weird spacex related reasons.
|
| edit: here is a photo of the starlink proprietary-connector-
| to-1000BaseT adapter, there is not a whole lot going on here.
|
| https://www.reddit.com/r/Starlink/comments/rxoz16/gen_3_ethe...
| lnsru wrote:
| Well there is shortage of PHY chips. Decent TI chips go for
| 50$ a piece over broker. Minimum order quantity 200 pieces.
| We took ancient Realtek parts for 7$ from broker. Normally
| it's <4$. These are sad news from last 2 months. Regular
| distribution channels have zero stock with funny lead times
| of 1,5 years.
| walrus01 wrote:
| At the quantities and price constraints that spacex is
| manufacturing the low cost home router/poe injector for the
| v2 and v3 standard model starlink terminals, however, i
| don't think they have any difference in purchasing power or
| use of low cost PHY compared to what you'd find in like a
| $50 mikrotik:
|
| https://mikrotik.com/product/hex_s
|
| https://viva-telecom.org/images/MIKROTIK/hex-s_6.jpg
| themanmaran wrote:
| > one large industrial conglomerate had resorted to buying
| washing machines just to scavenge the chips inside them for its
| products
|
| Is this really more efficient than say, contacting the washing
| machine manufacturer and buying up the chips at a premium (i.e.
| above the washing machine cost).
|
| I usually applaud hacky solutions, but this just feels like a ton
| of unnecessary waste. I would prefer scrapping features (like
| Tesla did with the USB ports) over trashing a ton of washing
| machines.
| londons_explore wrote:
| > buying up the chips at a premium (i.e. above the washing
| machine cost).
|
| Industries often act illogically in cases like this. You see it
| with many types of goods ordered a long time in advance.
|
| If there is a sudden shortage, the people who have ordered
| their raw materials a long time in advance (who have
| effectively purchased a future for that commodity) think they
| made a good move and see it as a business advantage that they
| can continue production while their competitors who failed to
| plan cannot.
|
| However, they often fail to see that it is an _even better_
| business move to still shut down production and sell those raw
| materials onwards to someone else who will pay handsomely for
| them.
|
| Basically, the futures market should never determine if a
| factory is operating or not. If it does, then someone has made
| an irrational decision.
| toast0 wrote:
| > However, they often fail to see that it is an even better
| business move to still shut down production and sell those
| raw materials onwards to someone else who will pay handsomely
| for them.
|
| There's also business value in being the washing machine
| company that didn't have to shut down production. If I'm
| building a lot of housing with washing machines, maybe I just
| wait and buy whatever just in time, but maybe I want to do a
| bulk buy direct from the manufacturer with delivery on a
| schedule; having a track record of continuing production
| during supply shortages makes it more likely that the
| deliveries will happen. If production is stopped whenever
| it's better to resale materials, it's hard for buyers to rely
| on scheduled deliveries and those buyers will turn to others.
| axiolite wrote:
| > the futures market should never determine if a factory is
| operating
|
| But what about _washing machine futures_?
|
| Or more realistically, how much is shutting down the factory
| going to cost the washing machine manufacturer in terms of
| employee compensation, lost employees (more hiring and
| training), washing machine brand losses in the market,
| failure to deliver on existing contracts, and similar? They
| can't claim force majeure when they shut down the factory
| merely because they see a way to make slightly more profit
| than normal.
| londons_explore wrote:
| True... but that has to be compared with those same set of
| losses the car factory up the street will suffer if _they_
| don 't get the chips...
|
| If there is only enough chips for one factory to run,
| someone has to shutdown and take those losses. And the
| shutdown factory should be the one with less to lose, not
| the one who didn't buy futures in time.
| floxy wrote:
| >However, they often fail to see that it is an even better
| business move to still shut down production and sell those
| raw materials onwards to someone else who will pay handsomely
| for them.
|
| Isn't this the short-term quarter-to-quarter mindset that
| gets constantly roasted on HN? Isn't there value to your
| brand in being a dependable supplier to your customers? And
| isn't there business value in retaining your workforce,
| instead of having to lay them off, since you shut the factory
| down?
| londons_explore wrote:
| This is one reason I think most contracts for goods for
| future delivery should be public knowledge.
|
| Ie. "Mr Smith purchased 68 tons of steel for delivery in New
| York June next year for $200k".
|
| Then anyone wanting those same goods and willing to pay more
| can contact Mr Smith and make an offer to buy the contract.
|
| I believe such a system would make the economy substantially
| more efficient, at the cost of privacy. More knowledge makes
| a better market. And more knowledge also increases tax
| revenues because under/overdeclaring goods values becomes
| much harder.
| hpkuarg wrote:
| Why would anybody want to trade with Mr. Smith's contract
| in particular when a market for the contract still exists,
| with market makers and other participants providing bids
| and offers that is better what Mr. Smith can do? At least,
| assuming you are talking about a regulated commodities
| futures contracts like those which trade on the CME.
| londons_explore wrote:
| If most buyers buy ahead like Mr Smith, then the
| liquidity in the spot market can dry up, especially in
| times of supply constraint.
|
| Mr Smith and many people like him might happily sell on
| his steel for 10x the price he paid for it to someone
| desperate for some steel.
|
| Yet, as things stand now, whenever there is severe market
| disruption, you frequently find goods aren't available
| _for any price_. Thats simply because Mr Smith and people
| like him continue to take delivery of the steel he
| ordered 6 months ago, and doesn 't actually need right
| now, because he isn't aware of the guy down the street
| who _really_ reeds it right away and will pay a lot.
|
| If all goods are always 'for sale', then goods can be
| allocated efficiently to whoever needs them most.
| bluGill wrote:
| Mr Smith has a real for delivery contract, not a more
| common contract to own for some amount of time but no
| clue who is on either end. As such if you buy from Mr
| Smith you get real goods, while from someone else you may
| discover that you created a short squeeze, and not actual
| material is available: they may have to pay you a ton of
| $$$ to get out of the contract, but you don't actually
| get anything delivered.
|
| If you really want the actual good and not the dollars,
| then you should by buying contracts backed by real goods
| that cannot be shorted. By contrast if you just want to
| make money there is more money in buying the contact that
| is a short with no material behind it. Of course knowing
| when a short squeeze will happen is left as an exercise
| for the reader - meaning I have no idea when this plan
| can work out only that once in a while it does.
| sidewndr46 wrote:
| Somewhere, an executive's bonus pay is based off the number
| of units shipped each year. Not the amount of money saved for
| the company. Under that kind of regime, it actually makes
| less sense to sell the chips at a premium price. For the
| executive.
| AdamJacobMuller wrote:
| It might be more (cost) efficient to buy washing machines.
|
| It's possible if the washing machine manufacturer knew of the
| real value of the chip to the buyer, they might charge
| extortionate pricing.
|
| It's also possible that the total value of selling a washing
| machine exceeds the purchase price (e.g. how much does the
| washing machine manufacturer get from the detergent maker for
| putting a packet of detergent in the box).
| bluGill wrote:
| Buying the machines means that you go to all their dealers
| and buy - thus ensuring that their dealers remain in
| business. When things return to normal their dealers are
| still able to sell to everyone else who wants a washing
| machine and so they don't have to build a new dealer network.
| In short it is probably penny wise, pound foolish to not make
| washing machines even though they could sell the parts for
| more money now.
| MiddleEndian wrote:
| When I tried to build a mattress, I was unable to buy certain
| components directly from companies, no matter which ones I
| contacted. Had to buy mattress toppers and rip the parts out.
| Guess this applies to corporations too lol
| lotsofpulp wrote:
| There is a lot of liability and time cost involved in a
| transaction. It does not necessarily make sense for
| businesses in the business to business space to expend effort
| on business to consumer sales.
| koheripbal wrote:
| Honestly, it's probably easier to get one item for free if
| they are local and you can talk to the right person.
| scld wrote:
| Yeah, in this case the manufacturer probably didn't have any
| extra chips. Also, in my experience, these companies were
| unwilling to go outside their system and charge a markup for
| their own stock.
|
| Instead of giving me the ICs directly, I had to wait for them
| to ship an order of dev boards to Digikey that I'd already
| purchased and they were building to order.
| HeyLaughingBoy wrote:
| Depends.
|
| I posted earlier about orders being held up because parts were
| unavailable. If you have a customer for your $700,000 machine
| that can't be shipped because a $50 module is off the market,
| then you bet it makes sense to buy a washing machine to extract
| that part. The only other alternative is to hope that there's
| enough margin to redesign around another, available part.
|
| We had a client pre-COVID that found themselves in exactly this
| predicament. If we could have found the part they needed
| embedded in another machine, that's exactly the recommendation
| we'd have made.
|
| [edited]
| Melatonic wrote:
| The problem in these cases is not that you can't buy them at a
| premium - it is that you cannot buy them at all. What do you do
| if nobody can supply you the part at any price?
| chrisbrandow wrote:
| This article was May 2022. Apparently things are already
| beginning to change.
| throwaway742 wrote:
| Unfortunately we might not be out of the woods yet. I have an
| acquaintance who works in the defense industry and they told me
| they are having semiconductor supply chain issues because of a
| shortage of noble gases needed for semiconductor production.
| Apparently Ukraine is a huge supplier and the war has really
| constrained supplies.
| xani_ wrote:
| Well the pretty vanilla chip I waited year for last year is now
| only on 48 weeks lead time...
|
| The other a bit less common one is only few months tho,
| compared to year+ so I guess it slowly is. Inflation probably
| helped too
| itsoktocry wrote:
| > _only on 48 weeks lead time..._
|
| Small end-users receiving chips is a lagging indicator of the
| state of the supply chain. Companies are already warning
| about surplus inventory, ie:
|
| https://moneyweek.com/economy/global-
| economy/605232/semicond...
| mindcrime wrote:
| That's encouraging. But we're apparently not out of the
| woods yet. It wasn't very long ago (3 weeks maybe?) that I
| was on Mouser.com (or maybe it was Newark, whatever)
| looking for DSP's and there were basically none to be had.
|
| Hopefully we'll turn the corner soon and availability of
| most IC's will get back to normal. _fingers crossed_
| hef19898 wrote:
| Beware the Bullwhip Effect!
| Arcanum-XIII wrote:
| Honestly, it depends on the kind of component. It's easier
| to get CPU that support android than more lambda one for
| example, and that's without speaking about sub component.
| This lead to strange situations to say the least (partial
| bom delivery for example, so no power, no ethernet, 2G
| instead of 3G/4G modem...).
| ChuckNorris89 wrote:
| Maybe. But getting a raspberry pi is still next to imposible.
| pjc50 wrote:
| This prompted me to look on Ebay, where Pi 4 prices are mad
| (>PS100!) but the previous generations seem to be more
| normal. Wonder if it's worth me digging up any 3s I have and
| selling them.
| throwaway742 wrote:
| I sold my 3B for a price that honestly makes me feel a
| little guilty at the height of the shortage, but to be fair
| it was an auction and I only set the reserve to MSRP. At
| least it went to someone who presumably really needed it
| and it was just sitting on my shelf gathering dust after
| being used for a project.
| dspillett wrote:
| I wanted one for a thing some months ago, and the 4s were
| out of stock most places and silly prices where they were
| available. 3s were in a similar state. I had a 3 spare but
| wanted the extra spec (USB3 and a bit more CPU umpf). I
| ended up getting a 400 instead as they were readily
| available at the time. When the 4s become sensibly
| available I'll swap it out for one and the 400 will become
| a toy for other purposes.
|
| EDIT: sweet Jesus. Just checked the current state on Amazon
| and the 400s are listed at PS117 for just the base unit,
| more than the PS91 I paid for the full kit (the only in-
| stock option at the time) six months ago, the 4Gb 4 is
| PS173 (next day prime) or PS155 (up to two week delivery),
| and the 8Gb is down for a whopping PS290! (next day, no
| cheaper slower options). The only Pi3 showing as in-stock
| ATM is PS100. Maybe I should hunt out my spare 3 and make
| some drinking money from it!
|
| I've not checked other sources.
| wlesieutre wrote:
| What worked for me was installing Twitter to get
| notifications from @rpilocator. Adafruit restocks (IIRC) on
| Wednesday or Thursday afternoons and you have a couple minute
| window before they sell out. Be sure to have two-factor auth
| set up in your Adafruit account in advance, it's required for
| pi orders.
| ChumpTheMasses wrote:
| in rwanda? read the schematic diagram then hack left and
| right
| Varloom wrote:
| This article is out of date. We have chip glut situation right
| now, both Intel and NVIDIA have pushed back their 4nm orders. And
| 7/8nm already produced chips are piling up with no buyer to be
| found (especially GPUs).
| matthews2 wrote:
| There was a bigger problem with chips built on older processes
| (e.g. power ICs and microcontrollers).
| jbverschoor wrote:
| And that will never be fixed because those fabs are a dead
| end. It's just a matter of time before they are gone
| bheadmaster wrote:
| So many smartphones are thrown away in the trash each year. How
| many chips can be scavenged from them?
|
| Perhaps chip shortage will finally put an end to the planned
| obsolesce of the smartphone industry, and bring _some kind_ of
| stability to the whole thing.
| [deleted]
| segfaultbuserr wrote:
| > _So many smartphones are thrown away in the trash each year.
| How many chips can be scavenged from them?_
|
| Zero!? As far as I know, chips are inherently disposable
| products, recyling chips is almost an impossibility in modern
| electronics due to reliability problems. Nearly all chip
| datasheets contain the warning: DO NOT solder more than twice,
| which is the number of passes it takes to reflow-solder the
| front and back side of the PCB. And even this is only possible
| under carefully controlled reflow oven temperature profile, the
| max time interval during peak temperature should be less than
| 10 seconds. Any extra soldering steps or heat voids all
| warranty, since it exposes the chip under additional thermal
| stresses, and may damage the chip or degrade its long-term
| reliability. To recycle a chip, it takes two additional passes,
| first to remove it from the motherboard, next to re-tin or re-
| ball the chips, finally to install it on new boards, by now the
| chip would've experienced 6 thermal-stress events.
|
| Consider the fact that modern surface-mount technology has
| progressed to a point when even reliably assembling circuit
| boards using brand-new chips can be technically challenging for
| high yield - in mass production, it takes lots of tweakings,
| such as solder stencil opening, solder alloy selections,
| solderability test of the tinning on components, reflow oven
| temperature profile, inert gas protection, X-ray inspection,
| and even Scanning Electron Microscopes to perform metallurgical
| analysis for troubleshooting - I fail to see how recycling is
| ever going to work. It adds a huge number of additional
| uncertainties.
|
| Sure, repair shops and R&D labs do it all the time, and it
| works at a small scale. But reliably doing it at an industrial
| scale will be extremely problematic. This is why even a
| functional "counterfeit" chip (salvaged and remarked) is a
| great cause of concern, these components have been heavily
| abused, and nobody should ever trust it in a piece of critical
| equipment. Are you going to trust your life on a car when the
| microcontroller chip in the ECU is a salvaged part? Or pay $700
| for a smartphone if a chip has a time-to-failure of who-knows-
| how-long hours?
|
| Even back in the 80s when all the chips were through-hole
| components, the reliability of reused components was already a
| problem. In the days of QFN, BGA, LGA, CSP and WLP chips, I
| don't see any solution at all. This is the dark side of the
| semiconductor industry - nearly all chips are disposable.
|
| Nevertheless, this is a one-sided perspective from circuit
| board assemblers, which is what I'm familiar with. I don't know
| anything about electronics recycling. Thus, if there's any
| progress and innovation in the field of recycling, I'd love to
| know. Perhaps the manufacturers are overcautious on reliability
| and it's not really that bad?
| akelly wrote:
| This is a whole industry in China. There are buildings in
| Shenzhen with hundreds of vendors selling scavenged storage and
| memory chips, because those are highly standardized. And
| discontinued chips from the 80s and 90s are salvaged and sold
| on ebay and AliExpress so people can repair their old
| electronics. I've even seen broken laptops get their CPUs
| desoldered and turned into desktops with custom adapter boards.
| They're incredibly creative when there's profit to be made.
| kmeisthax wrote:
| Fun fact: this industry also has a habit of fraudulently
| remarking harvested chips (which are usually fine anyway) to
| look like brand-new ones. It caused a bit of a minor scandal
| in the retrocomputing community when this was found out.
| HeyLaughingBoy wrote:
| Early in my EE career at a very small electronics manufacturer,
| "pulls" (cheap components that were removed from equipment)
| were a thing. Lots of vendors in the back pages of the
| Component Shopper (I think that was the name) rag advertised
| them.
|
| As I moved on to companies where supply chain quality was
| important, we didn't do that anymore, but I'd be surprised if
| that marketplace has gone away. _Especially_ for hard to find
| parts. I know of companies where 6-figure orders were being
| held up because of the inability to find a few $5 components.
|
| It's less likely to happen for consumer products that are
| price-sensitive, though. There's a big difference between doing
| that with low-integration DIP parts vs fine-pitch SMT devices
| that have orders of magnitude higher transistor count.
| HereIGoAgain wrote:
| It's time to stop treating hardware like a toy or "the newest
| thing" and start thinking about ways to extend and expand use.
| Not just reuse as intended but different uses. As hardware gets
| more powerful and advanced, it's time software and the OS
| stared getting more versatile as well.
|
| What we really need is advanced work on local asymmetrical
| interconnected systems.
| robotnikman wrote:
| I've wondered this too. Probably wouldn't be too hard to make a
| machine that de-solders them to be reused
|
| The hard part I see is the issue with finding usable drivers
| for them
| joezydeco wrote:
| I can't fault the brokers for doing what they do, but one MCU I
| tried to source the other week had a 40x markup from normal. Yes,
| 4000%.
| snovv_crash wrote:
| I know of certain STM32F7 SKUs being sourced for $600/piece
| instead of $8/piece via shady backstreet Shenzhen suppliers.
| The whole electronics scene really needs a transparent futures
| market.
| joezydeco wrote:
| And what are the odds those STM32s are counterfeit?
| jbverschoor wrote:
| If they were really hacking their way, they'd just move to more
| modern process where there is and will be more capacity.
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