[HN Gopher] FTC proposes rule to ban junk fees, bait-and-switch ...
___________________________________________________________________
FTC proposes rule to ban junk fees, bait-and-switch tactics
plaguing car buyers
Author : ParksNet
Score : 172 points
Date : 2022-09-09 16:10 UTC (6 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.ftc.gov)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.ftc.gov)
| kevincox wrote:
| I think there should be a generic rule for everything that the
| advertised price is something that you can actually pay and get
| the product. No $50 concert tickets with $75 of fees, advertising
| that for less than $125 should be illegal.
|
| Of course I'm sure people will get creative with "optional"
| upsells, the $50 ticket is in the building but highly obstructed,
| but I think this is at least a huge step forward.
| [deleted]
| silvestrov wrote:
| Nederlands has this rule in the law (as far as I know). You
| cannot sell a $50 ticket with a surprise $10 fee.
|
| The product you sell must be fully usable at the advertised
| price.
| 3np wrote:
| Shouldn't the same reasoning apply to search results? It should
| be illegal to claim "500000 results" but require additional
| spending of time, attention, data, and AI training work for
| each additional 200.
| ericd wrote:
| Hear hear, make it include tax and tip, too.
| briffle wrote:
| I live in Oregon (no sales tax), and it boggles my mind when
| travelling out of state that the $10 item at the store is
| suddenly $10.50 once tax is included. Why is it not included
| in the price?
| koofdoof wrote:
| I believe the logic is that it makes taxation something
| explicit that you are forced to notice. The idea being that
| an included tax would be invisible and allow for hidden
| changes and less recognition of the government's role.
| ganoushoreilly wrote:
| State, County, and City taxes all vary wildly in different
| states. It's an annoyance for sure.
| coryrc wrote:
| IIRC you don't have to pay that in Washington, so you
| should still be paying the listed price :). Bit of an edge
| case though
| mikestew wrote:
| Though not exactly a [citation needed], but certainly
| [implementation details needed]. Like, what, you're in a
| Target in Vancouver, WA, you pull out your OR driver
| license, and now they wave the sales tax? Or save the
| receipt and take it off your OR taxes later? In the case
| of the former, okay, I'd do that. For the latter, no, I'm
| not adding a piece of paper to the pile to save $0.50.
| techsupporter wrote:
| This used to be the case, and Target was exactly one of
| the companies that made it exactly like this. You'd show
| your Oregon ID card and the sales tax would be removed
| (the seller could claim against their sales tax due for a
| non-resident sale).
|
| However, this was intended to benefit border cities--
| Vancouver, WA in particular really liked it--but
| Washington State has no income tax and so is heavily
| reliant on sales tax. So, as of July 1 2019, the
| exemption (on state sales tax; local sales tax isn't
| covered here) may only be claimed post-transaction by the
| buyer: https://dor.wa.gov/taxes-rates/retail-sales-
| tax/sales-tax-ex...
| mikestew wrote:
| Lived in WA for over 20 years, and TIL...thanks for a
| quick follow-up.
| kevincox wrote:
| I would definitely try to include those.
| shepherdjerred wrote:
| Nathan is one step ahead of you
|
| https://youtu.be/XbC0-tuYE2o?t=114
| spaghettiToy wrote:
| I'm having our third kid in December and we need a bigger car.
|
| No idea what to do. Wait? Used are the same price as new.
| andrew_ wrote:
| Be patient. There's about to be a glut of available vehicles
| [1] in the near future. The boat market is also showing the
| same signs.
|
| [1] https://www.nbcnews.com/business/consumer/gen-z-
| millennials-...
| greeneggs wrote:
| US new car sales are still more than 2,000,000 fewer per year
| than pre-pandemic (about a 12% drop) [1], mostly because of
| restricted supply. A less than .5 percentage point change in
| default rates is not nearly enough to close this gap.
|
| [1] https://www.goodcarbadcar.net/usa-auto-industry-total-
| sales-...
| lotsofpulp wrote:
| Another article about glut of available boats.
|
| https://www.gizmodo.com.au/2022/09/worlds-largest-cruise-
| shi...
| bdcravens wrote:
| Is there a reasonable chance that the vehicle you want will be
| ready by then? In your shoes I'd try to place the order.
| Otherwise I'd get something a few years old (2018+). In 24
| months it'll be ridiculously messy anyways, and I think a 20k
| mile difference is negligible these days.
| natch wrote:
| If you can afford to risk $250 (non-refundable order fee), then
| put in an order for a Model Y. At least to have the option.
| Then go test drive one. Don't brush this idea off without doing
| an actual test drive. Not a ride. A drive. Orders put in now
| have delivery as soon as December.
| ghaff wrote:
| I bought a new car recently that there was very little haggle
| room on but at least no markup (other than the doc fee, etc.)
| Also took 6 weeks. But I did get a $15K trade-in on a 75K mile,
| 11 yo car with visible body damage. I was shocked. That must
| suggest something about used car prices.
| bdcravens wrote:
| The dealer I bought my 2018 Toyota from has been hassling me
| for the last couple of years trying to buy it back. Only
| recently have they backed off.
| graton wrote:
| Used car prices have been dropping a lot recently. Like almost
| 1% each week in the wholesale market over the last 6-8 weeks.
|
| This YouTube channel discusses it:
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vb8H8sTNiRc
|
| Prices are still too expensive on used cars, but the prices are
| getting better and likely will continue.
| anonAndOn wrote:
| Cast a wide net using the dealerships' Internet Sales desk ONLY
| and expect your search to take longer than pre-COVID times. You
| might be able to find the car you want at a reasonable price...
| a few hundred miles away. And don't be afraid to walk if the
| dealership tries any shenanigans when you show up. If they know
| you drove X hours to get there, they may try to leverage that
| information.
| intrasight wrote:
| For the last couple of new cars that I bought, I emailed the
| "internet sales manager" at three local dealers and asked for a
| quote. I bought the car from the dealer with the lowest quote. I
| paid the quoted amount. This has been the suggested way to buy
| cars for like 20 years. I've not bought a new car in a while.
| Would this approach somehow break down now?
| fshbbdssbbgdd wrote:
| Internet sales is a low-touch, low-margin business. It made
| sense because the internet sales manager could move higher
| volume and still make the dealership money. Now that supply is
| constrained and the dealership has people beating down the
| doors to buy every can they can get their hands on, they don't
| have much reason to play ball. It's a waste of inventory.
| tmpz22 wrote:
| I think it depends on the state you're in and the inventory of
| the car you're buying. Some states have already implemented
| strong consumer protections that would have encouraged this
| style of transaction and eliminate many of the mechanisms where
| it could go wrong.
|
| Further, in the last two years there have been a strong demand
| and low supply for vehicles. Many dealerships were selling out
| of cars months before they were even delivered - meaning
| they're bought sight unseen. Finally they get marked-up 10% or
| more. So even the cheapest bid is still well over the sales
| price established by the manufacturer.
|
| Source: Bought a car in 2021, did a lot of research.
| chucksmash wrote:
| I bought a car in-person in 2020, and tried a "get a quote
| emailed" search earlier this year. 100% prefer the in-person
| experience.
|
| Response to my online quote request came back with "we don't
| have any of that model/year in stock" and then thus far, 15-20
| marketing follow-up emails trying to sell me other cars,
| following up on my experience, etc, in addition of course to
| the modern marketing "guilt trip" emails ("Hi chucksmash, I
| sent you an email the other day with a few other models you
| might be interested in but never heard back, hope everything is
| okay, please let me know" 3x times). When all I did was click
| an "email me a quote" button because the web page didn't show a
| price.
|
| Adding insult to injury, the page for unsubscribing cannot
| process a "+" in an email address.
|
| At least when I walk into a showroom I can also walk out.
| Giving anybody your email address in 2022 is basically
| subscribing to CatFacts.
| intrasight wrote:
| I did indeed get both emails and calls about other models
| available. Still better than wasting time driving to
| dealerships.
| MerelyMortal wrote:
| Put your state's AG's email address in the form :-)
| kube-system wrote:
| I'm sure the SQL query that sees it will be shocked and
| immediately change its ways.
| bombcar wrote:
| Supply is low. Why would the dealer even reply to you when they
| sell their entire allotment instantly and for way over book?
| mwint wrote:
| Well, why wouldn't they reply with $(way over book)+1?
| uoaei wrote:
| Because they are people with high cognitive load in their
| day jobs, not automated auctioning algorithms.
| [deleted]
| mcguirep wrote:
| I've done the same in the past certainly. With the relative
| paucity of new cars available on the market due to supply chain
| issues, getting an actual out the door quote with real numbers
| without being in the dealership has been a lot harder for the
| past year. It's easing up a little bit as demand softens and
| more supply becomes available.
| intrasight wrote:
| I'll try to keep my 2004 on the road for a couple more years,
| and cross my fingers that this supply crunch gets resolved
| soon.
| icelancer wrote:
| That's where I'm at. Was thinking about buying a new car in
| 2020, and then... yeah. Just riding it out until late 2023
| or early 2024 in my projections.
| nradov wrote:
| That approach would break down now if none of the local dealers
| has the car you want in stock and has already pre-sold all of
| the inventory they ordered. It really depends on where you're
| located and which model you want to buy. Good luck getting
| something like a Bronco.
| intrasight wrote:
| I was indeed informed that they didn't have my car in stock.
| yardie wrote:
| I tried to do the same a year ago. None of the dealers
| responded with a quote. All of them required me to come in
| before they would even consider discussing a price.
|
| Dealers have gotten savvy to internet pricing so there isn't as
| much haggling on price as there used to be. You occassionally
| find a good deal online only to find out it was a ruse to get
| you to come in.
| notch656a wrote:
| Yeah I bought during the covid rush. Every vehicle I wanted
| was sold the next day after it listed. Finally I just found
| one I wanted, brought a certified check to the dealership for
| the exact asking price, and paid them on the spot It was the
| only way I could get anything at all. Even had one dealership
| refuse my check ready to hand over because "some other guy
| was already on the way to look at it."
|
| Dealership literally gave no fucks, if you didn't buy it
| someone else would hours later. If you brought the full
| amount in cash you'd probably barely get a 'meh' out of a
| salesman. They could literally sleep all day, wait for a
| bundle of cash on their lap and wake up at the end of the day
| with big commission, and still make out like a bandit.
| yardie wrote:
| They don't even want the cash anymore. I spotted a SUV at a
| good discount. Called in to verify the price, "yes, thats
| the price." Went to the dealership and hello that price is
| only available with dealer financing. The car was $1000
| more if you came with check in hand. So I played their
| game, I financed it to keep the discount. Then I payed the
| balance a week later.
|
| My credit score dropped 60 points because of it! LOL.
| mistrial9 wrote:
| inspector-g wrote:
| One thing that still confuses me is that brokers/agents are very
| common, or practically a requirement, in other areas but not at
| all in vehicle shopping. I would definitely pay a handsome fee to
| a broker to just absorb all the shopping/haggling pain, to cut
| through all the BS, on my behalf.
|
| I have tried this once with one of the very few brokers I could
| find, and it was definitely better but it was obvious there were
| several areas of the experience that could be massively improved.
| I chalked it up at the time to a lack of competition between
| brokers, since there really aren't many.
| joosters wrote:
| None of these proposed bans or guidelines seem specific to cars,
| so why are they being narrowly targetted at them? Bans on bait-
| and-switch, fraudulent fees, junk fees, and requiring upfront
| disclosure of costs and conditions should apply to anything that
| you buy.
| nerdponx wrote:
| It's just like privacy and VCR rentals.
|
| The car dealers in particular lost the "lobbying vs. public
| opinion" battle, but the other constituent business lobbies
| remain protected.
| themitigating wrote:
| What the junk fees actually are must be specifically stated.
| That's why it won't work for all types of products
| kube-system wrote:
| As I understand, many of these practices are generally illegal,
| but this is more of a targeted refinement to address a topical
| pain point.
| [deleted]
| sagarun wrote:
| One of the chair dissented on these rules:
| https://www.ftc.gov/system/files/ftc_gov/pdf/P204800MotorVeh...
|
| Says these rules will stifle innovation and some car makers are
| doing direct sales so rule is not really needed.
| nerdponx wrote:
| "Some people are not doing it anymore" is a ridiculous reason
| to not-ban something that absolutely should be banned.
| encryptluks2 wrote:
| We don't need to make murder illegal anymore because some
| people are not doing it.
| toomuchtodo wrote:
| No surprise based on the bio.
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christine_S._Wilson
| ryeights wrote:
| Excellent news; the nonsense that car dealers have been able to
| get away with since the start of the pandemic is simply
| ridiculous.
|
| Perhaps most frustrating is the complete uselessness of posted
| prices, as many dealerships note in very fine print that their
| advertised prices are only valid for purchases financed through
| the dealership (no doubt at ridiculous APRs.) "Doc fees" are also
| something I would love to see eliminated--sometimes upwards of
| $500 for the dealer to submit some online forms to the DMV...
| woobar wrote:
| Submitting forms to the DMV is a separate line item (Title and
| Registration). Doc fee is just profit in disguise.
| nradov wrote:
| I'm not going to defend deceptive dealership sales practices,
| but as long as you have a good credit rating they often offer
| very good APRs. Most manufacturers have captive finance arms to
| juice their sales numbers and the financing terms can be better
| than what you would get from an independent lender. For
| example, Toyota is offering 2.49% on a 4-year loan which is
| lower than the US Treasury yield so if you do have to buy a car
| then you can literally make a profit by borrowing from them.
| kube-system wrote:
| There are still a number of 0% financing deals out there, if
| you can find the cars they're offered on.
| staringback wrote:
| With the exclusion of the recent unprecedented times, that
| brand new car would depreciate far more rapidly than your
| perceived profit hedging against inflation.
| to11mtm wrote:
| I mean, USUALLY sure. There are exceptions to some extent
| and I've been lucky in this regard [0], but in general I'd
| say the problem is people just don't care. I -do- tend to
| shop on overall depreciation/resale value and try to order
| my cars in a way that while I completely intend to drive it
| into the ground, I will avoid any creature features that
| don't help with long term value or are too rich for my
| blood. [1]
|
| Also while GP is somewhat overstating their case, that
| depreciation hit is gonna happen if you pay cash anyway.
| It's not 'hedging against inflation' so much as 'minimizing
| interest paid on depreciation'.
|
| I will also say there are cases where _perhaps_ it could
| make some level of sense. I 'm kinda an odd duck and fell
| into this boat; My 10 year old car with age and a bad^bad
| oil change gets 18-24MPG for a good part of the year now,
| and only takes 91+. I switched to a Hybrid and the gas
| savings alone covers the majority of my payment.
|
| [0] 3 of the 4 new cars I've bought fell into this range.
| The first was a Saturn I flew to Texas to grab, it had no
| A/C so I got it for a steal. The second was A car I bought
| 10 years ago with ~10% down was only 'underwater' for about
| 6 months of a 72 month loan. The latest _was_ the start of
| this year, but I 'm confident that even after things
| subside it will still hold value fairly well.
|
| [1] Special infotainment systems, upgraded audio and remote
| start come to mind. People don't particularly shop for most
| infotainment systems on used cars. Upgraded audio is likely
| better handled by a trustworthy local shop if you really
| want it. Remote start just seems overpriced by most
| manufacturers, and IMO for most people (barring a medical
| need for the climate to be in a certain state immediately)
| another sign of society's environmental disregard.
| kyleblarson wrote:
| I generally hate treating anyone like a bad person but I
| figured out about 15 years ago that car dealers are only in it
| to extract as much money out of you as possible and there's no
| need to treat them as nice people. I've had success with my
| last few trucks emailing a dealer when I see the truck in stock
| that I want, saying "Attached please see pictures of my trade
| in, here's the VIN, here's the mileage. Please tell me the
| exact amount I will need to bring with me to your dealership in
| a cashier's check to get the new truck. I will only reply to
| one more email with a yes / no response. I will also not do any
| sort of credit check at your dealership so know that going in.
| I will walk away if your finance person claims that I have to
| do one."
| abawany wrote:
| Hopefully they are on their last hurrah after exploiting
| current customers with their nasty markups, including for
| pre-orders, due to the current shortages. Looking forward to
| seeing how Ford executes on its plans to get them out of the
| loop: https://arstechnica.com/cars/2022/06/ford-wants-to-
| sell-evs-... .
| DisjointedHunt wrote:
| When I first came to America, I realized the biggest myth is that
| people believe it is a capitalist nation with free markets.
|
| It is not. Not by a long shot.
|
| From buying a car to getting medical treatment, America has a
| very UNIQUE template of the way people think, talk, behave and
| deal with each industry that is radically different from the rest
| of the world.
|
| "Healthcare"?: They actually mean "Insurance". The term has
| nothing to do with medicine, treatment, personal care or well
| being, but simply refers to this massive series of legislation
| over the decades that has enshrined government protection against
| competition in free markets leading to the extreme inefficiencies
| driving up prices.
|
| "Dealerships"?: They mean Govt protected localized monopolies
| with the mandate to abuse said market power against any known
| free market ideal.
|
| Energy Markets: Same story. Try building a transmission line,
| nuclear plant or any energy infrastructure in America and you'll
| be lucky if you only go bankrupt and lose everything financially.
| Entities with the innovative courage to attempt such projects
| have terrible outcomes.
|
| "Housing": This continues to amaze me with how selective,
| arbitrary, corrupt and inefficient permits, zoning and all the
| other functions run by local governments actually are. Take a
| region as prominent as the SF Bay Area and regardless of your
| position, everyone likely has a strong opinion on inefficiencies
| in the market and how they don't really need to persist in a free
| market.
|
| In short, the biggest opportunity right now is a technological
| revolution in government and a challenge to the traditional form
| of local government that has proven so ineffective in a highly
| networked society.
|
| This will never happen though because of the inherent self
| interest of the present structure in keeping things the way they
| are.
| gamblor956 wrote:
| Some carmakers are dealing with this directly. Subaru, for
| example, requires dealers to sell cars at MSRP...and does not
| allow dealers to mandate "mandatory" add-ons like extended
| warranties or "paint protection packages." Dealers which violate
| these rules get their dealer allotments reduced for desirable
| models/trims. (In the LA area, a dealer that was adding a
| mandatory $3000 protection package to certain 2022 Outback trims
| saw its dealer allotments quartered for those trims for the 2023
| model year.)
| to11mtm wrote:
| > Subaru, for example, requires dealers to sell cars at MSRP
|
| I'm glad they do that now. I know one dealer local to me tried
| to pull a markup on me... _10 years ago_ (when it was easy to
| find another dealer that was able to give me invoice due to a
| TrueCar thing.)
|
| I will say, one of the best things about Saturn was No-Haggle,
| consistent pricing. As relatively pleasant as the dealer I
| bought my WRX from was, it was still a pretty big 'jolt'
| compared to my previous experiences with Saturn.
| 1970-01-01 wrote:
| FTC document:
| https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2022/07/13/2022-14...
| throw10920 wrote:
| It's unclear to me as to whether "Require full upfront disclosure
| of costs and conditions" also applies to subscription services,
| which is something that I'd _really_ like transparency in.
| 1970-01-01 wrote:
| Yes. See SS 463.5(b)(3)
| gmarx wrote:
| Charging customers for nitrogen filled tires that contain no more
| nitrogen than air (hey 78% is a lot!) reminds me of an idea I had
| to market regular salt as "ancient sea salt". I cracked myself up
| with this idea and thinking about the suckers in Whole Foods
| switching to it from their pink Himalayan or whatever regular sea
| salt.
|
| Then I searched and discovered that of course some scumbag was
| actually doing it. Hehe
| jandrewrogers wrote:
| There is a legitimate use case for dry nitrogen in tires, it
| just doesn't apply to the average person's situation.
|
| When the interior of the tire can become very hot, such as due
| to compressive loading in heavy construction equipment, there
| is a risk of accelerated oxidation and weakening of the tire
| material. In more extreme cases, the oxygen can react with
| atomized tire bits inside the tire causing an explosion via the
| same mechanism by which a Diesel engine works. It is
| exceedingly unlikely that the tires on a normal road car will
| ever become hot enough for this to matter.
| wincy wrote:
| I mean Pink Himalayan Salt is funny marketing too. "Pink
| Pakistani Mine Salt" just doesn't have the same ring to it.
| ak217 wrote:
| Where I live, Costco sells potato chips with _salt inspired
| by ancient Himalayan salt_ which cracks me up every time.
| kube-system wrote:
| Yesterday I bought some vegetable chips at the store. It
| contained one vegetable: potato.
| konfusinomicon wrote:
| don't forget about the beet juice used for coloring!
| kube-system wrote:
| These ones didn't even have that!
| andrewia wrote:
| Most of the chips I've seen are guilty of this, from
| Trader Joe's to the popular Veggie Straws. They're
| essentially baked/popped chips with no extra nutritional
| content. "Veggie" is definitely deceptional to the
| average consumer, who expects vitamins and minerals.
| jacobr1 wrote:
| I once saw a big display in my local grocery for "organic salt"
| a few years ago. Which struck me as just fundamentally wrong.
| We are talking about non-organic material. Of course they meant
| "organic certified" which just meant they didn't includes
| additives. But still ... it seems so misleading.
| chasebank wrote:
| We've been selling nutritional supplements online for over a
| decade and I remember reading once about how some dirt on food
| really helps the microbiome. I considered selling dirt pills
| for a while. I think we'd have some success.
| colpabar wrote:
| "Nitrogen. It's what tires crave!"
| tmh88j wrote:
| > Charging customers for nitrogen filled tires that contain no
| more nitrogen than air (hey 78% is a lot!)
|
| Are dealerships claiming to use nitrogen and just pumping in
| regular air, or are you talking about the unnecessary upselling
| of it? It's common in racing to use nitrogen, but yea, totally
| unnecessary for a Camry or whatever. One of my cars displays a
| warning telling me to visit the dealer when the tire pressure
| is low because the manufacturer recommends using nitrogen. I
| laughed the first time I saw the message on my gauge cluster
| before I knew the reason...still a ridiculous thought going to
| the dealer to top off my tire pressure even for nitrogen.
| ska wrote:
| > totally unnecessary for a Camry or whatever.
|
| Forget the Camry, it's hard to construct a road use
| application that actually makes sense. I guess you can be a
| bit more relaxed about checking during seasonal changes....
| tmh88j wrote:
| > Forget the Camry, it's hard to construct a road use
| application that actually makes sense.
|
| For daily driving, sure, but a lot of people track their
| cars. I don't care about nitrogen in my tires because I'm
| hardly a competitive racer or frequent track-goer, but for
| owners of "from the factory" track cars like the ZL1 1LE or
| GT3 RS I'm sure it matters more to them.
| ska wrote:
| As I said, "road use". Applies to most track days too,
| really. Maybe if you are club racer with a dedicated
| (i.e. trailored) track vehicle.
| tmh88j wrote:
| Right, I meant that people often track their street cars.
| I've already said that I don't bother with nitrogen, but
| it takes a special kind of person to run R compound tires
| on the street...
| ska wrote:
| Sure but people that track their street cars are rarely
| seeing any real benefit from nitrogen, either. It's a
| pretty marginal thing.
| gmarx wrote:
| I had forgotten that this was done in racing but can't
| imagine why you would want this for a commuter vehicle. I
| assumed they were just adding a line item to the bill and
| nitrogen made it sound more legit. But now that you mention
| it maybe they were offering to fill the tires with nitrogen
| like in the race cars but then just using regular air because
| really how would the customer know?
| mh8h wrote:
| The argument is that Nitrogen would have lower moisture
| content than air, and that allegedly reduces corrosion in
| the tires and wheels.
|
| Also Nitrogen filled tires lose pressure more slowly,
| because Nitrogen molecules are larger. The difference is
| not significant.
| HeyLaughingBoy wrote:
| > Nitrogen molecules are larger.
|
| That's what they told me at the dealership too. I asked
| "larger than what? Air is a mixture that's already 78%
| nitrogen." Didn't get an answer.
|
| As far as the lower moisture content, couldn't they pass
| the air through an air dryer before filling the tire if
| it was that much of an issue? Regardless, the outside of
| the tires & wheels are exposed to far more corrosive
| materials.
| tmh88j wrote:
| >That's what they told me at the dealership too. I asked
| "larger than what? Air is a mixture that's already 78%
| nitrogen." Didn't get an answer.
|
| No idea about molecule size, but the reason for nitrogen
| is that it expands less than air when heated, so tire
| pressure doesn't change as much when driving hard on a
| track.
|
| > As far as the lower moisture content, couldn't they
| pass the air through an air dryer before filling the tire
| if it was that much of an issue?
|
| Yes, this point is some dealership BS. Pretty much every
| auto shop will have a dedicated air line for filling
| tires, if not the whole system with an air dryer.
| mikestew wrote:
| When I was a pro mechanic, the whole compressed air
| system had moisture removal, because I don't want that
| shit in my air tools, either. I don't know about Costco,
| but of the shops I know of, it's one big compressor for
| tools, tires, etc.
| mister_tee wrote:
| Some bottled water brand had a tagline "no other water hydrates
| better"
|
| in case anyone does want to use nitrogen in their tires, I
| think at least US Costcos with tire centers have free self-
| service nitrogen inflators for members.
| foobarian wrote:
| Speaking of bottled water, guess what Evian is spelled
| backwards...
| Bloating wrote:
| What?
| flavius29663 wrote:
| well, not all liquids hydrate the same. Some even de-hydrate
| (coffee, seltzer water etc.). The water you're drinking is
| not pure, it always has some impurities which affect how much
| you hydrate drinking it. Pure water (distilled) is
| "undrinkable" for humans. I can see how a water with ions and
| whatnot (like a gatorade) can hydrate and replenish your
| electrolytes better.
| kube-system wrote:
| > Some even de-hydrate (coffee, seltzer water etc.)
|
| This is mostly a myth. Water hydrates you regardless of
| whether it's mixed with CO2 or with coffee beans. The thing
| about caffeine is that it is also a diuretic, so some of
| that water will be quickly expelled.
| SilasX wrote:
| But then why do they use saline instead of (relatively)
| pure water in IV bags? I would think it's fair to say
| there's some sweet spot when the goal is hydrating the
| body, though I doubt it's what the slimy advertiser above
| was intending to convey.
| NovemberWhiskey wrote:
| They use saline instead of pure water because it's
| isotonic with respect to serum/plasma. i.e. you're not
| going to go into electrolyte imbalance if a lot of it is
| put into your blood.
|
| Normal saline is about one-quarter the concentration of
| sea water, by the way.
| Bloating wrote:
| here I thought I was saving cash by injecting sea water
| dahfizz wrote:
| They use saline because it goes directly into your blood
| stream. If they used pure water, the osmotic pressure
| would force water into your cells, causing them to burst
| (hypotonic).
|
| You can drink pure water because it "becomes" saline as
| it mixes with the food in your stomach.
|
| Even unfiltered tap water doesn't have very many ions
| compared to blood or saline solution. Most of your ions
| come from your food.
| olyjohn wrote:
| Coffee will hydrate you. The amount that you expel from
| the caffeine is typically less than the amount you have
| taken in.
| amalcon wrote:
| AFAIK the only solution in water that actively dehydrates
| you is a strong salt water (roughly, sea water). Others
| (e.g. coffee) are just not as efficient at hydrating you
| due to diuretic effects or whatever.
| malfist wrote:
| I don't know where you're getting your science from, but
| seltzer water is not dehydrating, and distilled water is
| not undrinkable for humans.
|
| At best you can say that if you consume exclusively
| distilled water for a long time, you might deplete your
| body of some minerals unless they are replenished another
| way.
| __derek__ wrote:
| My local Costco doesn't check for membership at the tire
| pumps. YMMV.
| olyjohn wrote:
| Sometimes you can also sneak in the exit and buy yourself a
| hot dog.
| mikestew wrote:
| There's no sneaking, you can go buy a hot dog without a
| Costco membership.
|
| (Vegetarian here, who also doesn't like cheap-ass pizza,
| so it is possible this has changed in the last few years
| without my knowledge.)
| techsupporter wrote:
| Just before the pandemic blew up in the US, Costco
| changed its rules to require showing a membership card to
| access the food court. (You still don't have to scan a
| membership card to use the food court kiosks, just show
| it to get in the door.)
|
| https://www.latimes.com/food/story/2020-03-03/costco-
| food-co...
| dghlsakjg wrote:
| Don't know about the states, but in Canada, you don't
| have to be a member to use the pharmacy, that gets you in
| for samples and everything.
|
| Plus, their pharmacy is a great deal.
| mister_tee wrote:
| I think this is true in the US as well. And possibly
| liquor in some states (meaning a subset of the states
| that offer it in the first place).
| abawany wrote:
| This is true, but if you run into an officious
| gatekeeper, they will block you 'while they get the
| approval of the manager' before they will allow you to
| proceed. I hate going to Costco stores generally but
| their online operation is generally awesome, including
| prescriptions by mail.
| Gracana wrote:
| I think the point of "nitrogen" is more that it's dry and
| impurity free, vs shop air that can have a lot of moisture and
| other junk in it. Ever drain an air compressor tank off the
| water that accumulated inside? They get _filthy_ with rusty
| water.
| b3morales wrote:
| That's not the pitch that is made for the stuff.
|
| And I'm not sure that I've ever heard of rim failure due to
| filling air moisture being a widespread issue.
| dahfizz wrote:
| > That's not the pitch that is made for the stuff.
|
| I mean, how often do salespeople understand the technical
| details of what they are selling?
| mnahkies wrote:
| That's true, although you should be draining them to remove
| water frequently enough (just to keep it in good health) that
| I wouldn't have thought it'd make much of a difference
| JustSomeNobody wrote:
| True. But you almost never see any significant amount of that
| in tires.
| alphanumeric0 wrote:
| Today, car ownership is a horrible value proposition. The car
| lobby has been all too successful in making America car-centric,
| which is a shame, because cars are great, but they aren't the
| only form of transportation out there.
|
| I've been car-free for at least five years. To be fair, I live in
| a city that is friendly towards alternate transportation. I bike
| or use my own electric scooter. I plan ahead and book a rental
| when I know I'll need a car. So far it's been cheaper than
| owning, and has saved me thousands of dollars.
|
| It's these sorts of shenanigans that I'm glad I don't have to
| deal with. Paying outrageous amounts for insurance is another.
| Not to mention parking headaches, the constant threat of high-
| speed, potentially fatal, accidents, or expensive maintenance.
| HeyLaughingBoy wrote:
| > I live in a city that is friendly towards alternate
| transportation
|
| Good for you. Most of us don't; that's why we buy cars.
| eweise wrote:
| I'm guessing you don't have a family? I easily went without a
| car when single living in SF. Now with a house and kids, two
| cars are used daily.
| notch656a wrote:
| >Today, car ownership is a horrible value proposition
|
| Owning a car was literally the only asset I had that
| appreciated from 2020-2022. Everything else got inflated to
| hell or burst in the stock crash. My new vehicle was worth more
| with 20k on the dash than before I drove it off the lot.
| micromacrofoot wrote:
| it's completely worthless value though, you can sell the car
| now... and then what? buy a car that's also appreciated a
| similar amount
|
| if you continue using the car, the price will come back down
| before end of life
| notch656a wrote:
| I could say that about literally anything. A house, a shoe,
| a radio, a soldering iron, a phone. Everything goes to zero
| sooner or later. My retirement plan includes selling off
| the car and moving to south east asia where I'll buy a
| 125cc moped, so I definitely plan to "cash out" sooner or
| later and not for another car.
| anm89 wrote:
| If we could redirect our populism away from aggressive handouts
| and towards consumer protections, that could be a party I'd
| consider supporting. This is a great move.
| nimbius wrote:
| hoo boy if you car owners think youre getting screwed in the
| recession, its been like this for motorcycles for about 30 years.
| "oh we just sold it" "oh that ones not on our lot" "the price is
| only for financing."
|
| I once had a dealer advertise a two year old but new Yamaha, on
| paper, for six grand less than the wheelbarrow of fees that
| showed up after I asked for a quote in person. The
| "documentation" meeting was nearly an hour of upsells for special
| wax, special accessories, "racing nitrogen" in the tires on a
| touring bike, a 3000 mile care package, you name it. and each
| "document" was literally trying to get me to sign an agreement to
| purchase until the very end where I signed the receipt and state
| title forms.
| colpabar wrote:
| > "oh we just sold it"
|
| Damn. This is exactly what happened to me when I bought my
| current car a few years ago. I found it used on the dealer
| website, it had everything I wanted and had <20k miles. I setup
| an appointment to see it on a friday, called thursday night
| just to make sure, "oh we just sold it, but we have a new one
| you can look at." I never even considered that they could just
| be lying.
|
| Oh well, lesson learned I guess. It's paid off now, but I am
| looking at upgrading, and I'm gonna assume everything anyone at
| the dealership says is a lie until I see paperwork.
| dylan604 wrote:
| Get back at them by going through the whole process, but
| right when they want to sign the actual paperwork, get up and
| leave. Tease them by getting so close to a deal, and then
| just bounce. Tell them you've changed your mind, fake a
| text/call requiring you now, etc. The will fall over
| themselves to not let the sale slip away with the price of
| the car suddenly able to come down to make it happen.
| andrew_ wrote:
| I was looking at purchasing a newer, used Land Rover a few months
| back from a Land Rover dealership (one that had a sterling
| reputation prior to a buy out). The sheet of non-negotiable fees
| was rolled out, which raised the price nearly $5,000. The $1895
| for "Executive Concierge Fee" blew my mind, consisting of your
| basic $150 detail and a slew of additional items that one could
| buy and apply from any Pep Boys for under $100. Funny enough,
| when I got up to walk away I was asked if I would buy the vehicle
| that day if some of those $5,000 of "non-negotiable" fees were
| removed.
|
| I contacted the sales manager to tell him why I'd never be back.
| They couldn't care less. It must mean that enough people fall for
| these scam fees or don't pay attention to the line items that
| they can afford to not care.
|
| It looks like that rule would address this, and I'm for it.
| quickthrowman wrote:
| You were interested in buying a used Land Rover, of course
| they're going to try and soak you. People that are good with
| money generally don't buy used Land Rovers.
| andrew_ wrote:
| I have a used Land Rover, got a great price on it, and it's
| been a very solid vehicle for my needs. Your assertion is
| dripping with bias, overly generalized, stereotyping, and is
| incredibly ignorant.
| guardiangod wrote:
| When I was an intern a fellow intern got a 4 year old Land
| Rover.
|
| In the next 6 months he had to - Check
| engine light on. Checked multiple time. Never went away
| - Replace engine gasket - replace rear diff -
| replace rear axle (did the dealership broke this?)
|
| The forth one happened while he was returning from the
| manufacturer dealership for the 3rd issue, about half way
| to our town (about 90km left)
|
| The worst thing was, he actually bought warranty from the
| car dealership, but they managed to weasel out every single
| item.
|
| Pardon me if I am on the grandparent's side.
| notch656a wrote:
| I've had worse happen on a corolla not much older than
| that. Sadly in my experience if you buy used, it usually
| means someone leaked the fuck out of the oil / coolant or
| grinded the fuck out of the gears, trashed the
| differential or other bullshit and they performed some
| trick to make it undiscoverable for the next 500 miles
| and during the mechanical check. I've bought probably
| half a dozen "gently used low mileage" "reliable brand"
| (toyota/honda) and something critical has shit the bricks
| within a few months every single time.
|
| As the ol saying goes, nobody sells a vehicle they're
| happy with (of course people do, but they're predisposed
| to pawn off a dumpster fire by concealing the smoke with
| bags of tricks). With the used market such a shit-show
| right now it's almost no point to buy used anyway -- I
| finally just bought a new Toyota because the used ones
| with 100k+ miles were selling a few grand under MSRP.
| guardiangod wrote:
| Yes but your Collora's rear diff(heh) doesn't cost $7500
| to replace.
|
| Also, morality aside, the resale-ability of your Collora
| is on the exact opposite end versus a used Land Rover.
| dahfizz wrote:
| This is something I don't think people understand about
| "luxury" cars. You may find a good deal on the sale
| price, but you're still paying the inflated repair bills.
|
| A $30k BMW is _way_ more expensive than a $30k Toyota.
| ska wrote:
| This is a lesson learned again and again buy
| 20-somethings who find a "great" deal on a luxury sedan
| the same age as they are....
| notch656a wrote:
| Luxury make Lexus consistently ranks as one of the most
| reliable vehicle manufacturers. Are you sure luxury means
| you're going to end up with large repair bills?
| ska wrote:
| Relative to a similarly aged reliable economy car?
| Absolutely. All older cars require work, and the work on
| luxury brands is systemically more expensive.
|
| Agree it gets a bit more complicated if you are comparing
| to something cheap that breaks a lot more, but you can
| probably fix it 3:1 or so before you start to break even.
| SilasX wrote:
| You mean the brand specifically, or used cars at all? I'd
| always heard (and acted on) the advice that the sweet spot
| when buying a car is a few years in, when you're no longer
| paying the shiny-and-new premium but it's otherwise reliable
| -- i.e. someone else has eaten the bulk of the depreciation.
|
| They generally segment out the bad-with-money crowd by the
| ridiculous financing/lease surcharges, not new vs used,
| right? (If anything, I'd say the bad-with-money people will
| unnecessarily prefer new over used.)
| ska wrote:
| The sweet spot is a few years in, but also not a luxury
| badge. Reliability and service cost is a significant factor
| too.
|
| Landrover is a double whammy here, as it is a luxury badge
| (which typically puts you firmly in the overpriced parts
| and labor category) and has middling-to-poor reliability...
| robocat wrote:
| Reliable information on future maintenance costs is hard to
| find, but https://www.yourmechanic.com/article/the-most-
| and-least-expe... is an old article which might help.
|
| Per model costs can only be reliably measured for old
| models. New models are usually difficult to predict. I
| think more generally product brands are becoming harder to
| use as predictors of good reliability.
| JeremyNT wrote:
| Similar story here attempting to buy new. I went to a Toyota
| dealership that had the model I wanted to buy in stock. I
| looked up the price online first and it all looked good.
|
| Got in there and they tacked on a bunch of junk that wasn't
| listed. I asked them if they could do anything to get the price
| back to the online price, and they said they couldn't. They did
| suggest that they had a used car on the lot - which came in at
| the same price the new one did on the website, all told. I
| walked away.
|
| Never heard back. I assume that somebody probably came in the
| same week and gladly opened up the wallet.
|
| The experience in general suggested to me that I should hold
| onto my 15 y.o. car as long as it still rolls, rather than
| trying to buy a new one right now. Hopefully it outlasts this
| insanity.
| dghlsakjg wrote:
| My guess is that they don't expect you back since no one is
| masochist enough to buy a Land Rover twice...
| encryptluks2 wrote:
| How about ban mandatory arbitration when buying a new car. Now
| that would actually cause dealerships to think twice before
| screwing over customers.
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