[HN Gopher] Half of Japan's LDP lawmakers had ties with Unificat...
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Half of Japan's LDP lawmakers had ties with Unification Church
Author : rntn
Score : 231 points
Date : 2022-09-08 14:04 UTC (8 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (asia.nikkei.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (asia.nikkei.com)
| Rackedup wrote:
| Since I realized that there was a lie on every U.S. dollar bill,
| I figured that lying was accepted. I still don't do it but I try
| to be less trustful.
| tikkun wrote:
| Here's a GPT-3 written summary of this article:
|
| The article discusses the findings of an internal survey
| conducted by the Liberal Democratic Party of Japan, which found
| that around half of the party's lawmakers had dealings with the
| Unification Church, a controversial religious group believed to
| be behind the fatal shooting of former Prime Minister Shinzo Abe.
| LDP Secretary General Toshimitsu Motegi told reporters that the
| party will take the results of the survey seriously and reflect
| on them, and that lawmakers who do not abide by the party's
| policy of severing ties with the Unification Church will not be
| allowed to participate in party activities. Prime Minister Fumio
| Kishida told reporters that it is difficult to scrutinize Abe's
| past relations with the Unification Church, but pledged to
| implement measures to strengthen internal surveillance on ties
| between his ruling party and the religious group.
| dang wrote:
| Can you please not keep doing this? Predictable patterns are
| off topic in HN comments.
|
| https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&so...
|
| https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&sor...
|
| https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
| tikkun wrote:
| Thanks for letting me know, will stop.
| compyman wrote:
| This really misstates an important point - the Unification
| Church is not "believed to be behind" the assassination, it was
| a man holding a grudge against the Church. Pretty much the
| opposite meaning. I don't think this comment is useful for
| discussion.
| hbarka wrote:
| Isn't this akin to our major politicians having ties to Billy
| Graham/Evangelicals?
| maerF0x0 wrote:
| ELI5: wouldn't a large proportion of USA's lawmaker's have ties
| with a Christian church?
|
| Sorry for being uninformed, but why is this an issue?
| photochemsyn wrote:
| I think a decent historical model would be the relationship
| between Spain's fascist government under Generalisimo Francisco
| Franco and the Opus Dei sect founded by Josemaria Escriva:
|
| > "Many newly published Spanish history textbooks agree that
| the Opus Dei had a strong influence in the Franco regime.
| Moreover, Opus Dei developed itself in its early days during
| the Franco regime. According to these books, Opus Dei was not
| only linked but also tightly interwoven with the power
| structures of the Francoist authoritarian government soon after
| the Spanish Civil War, although its stronger involvement in the
| government came only in the late 1950s. It had at least 8
| ministers during Franco's rule. This was in keeping with the
| organization's aim of influencing the development of society
| indirectly..."
|
| https://www.primidi.com/opus_dei_and_politics/francisco_fran...
| adultSwim wrote:
| A better comparison might be if you discovered many US
| politicians having ties to Wahhabi mosques set up by Saudi
| intelligence.
|
| Note: I do not in any way support anti-Islam sentiment. Just
| making up an example of a newer foreign religious community.
| themaninthedark wrote:
| I was just about to make this analogy but it would be more
| akin to the mosques having ties to Iran, a state with nuclear
| ambitions and leadership that is hostile to the US, as
| opposed to Saudi Arabia where they don't have nuclear
| ambitions(that I know of) and the leadership is at least
| friendly with our leaders even if significant parts of the
| population may not be.
|
| Edit to add the same disclaimer the parent has: Note: I do
| not in any way support anti-Islam sentiment.
| 8note wrote:
| You could spin it around even further to say there's a
| bunch of Canadian politicians with ties to evangelical
| american churches.
|
| America fits the bill as a country with nuclear ambitions,
| and has done plenty of unfavourable trade shenanigans that
| said politicians have let slide
| adultSwim wrote:
| Moonies have had influence in both Korea and Japan. This is a
| big deal as Korea harbors strong anti-Japanese sentiment, due
| to Japan's brutal occupation of Korea. If I was Korean, I could
| imagine feeling that these are pro-Japanese collaborators.
|
| This is also partly why Abe was so controversial. Instead of
| apologizing for Japan's occupation of Korea, he repeatedly
| signaled a desire to return to those times.
| vorpalhex wrote:
| Imagine if 50% of US lawmakers had deep intimate connections
| with the Mormons or Scientologists.
| [deleted]
| 1270018080 wrote:
| I really can't see majors differences between socially
| conservative evangelical Christians and those other groups,
| if we're talking the harm they can cause politically.
| welshwelsh wrote:
| There's no difference, it's just that evangelical cults are
| much bigger and more accepted in the US.
| vorpalhex wrote:
| There's basically a single meaningful Evangelical cult in
| the US and it is mostly genealogical (ergo tiny). They
| also have a big population center in Mexico oddly enough
| (or did a few years ago, but there was a cartel massacre
| of them so they may have left).
| vorpalhex wrote:
| This is the "everyone who disagrees with me is a Nazi"
| problem.
|
| Evangelicals are distinct from cults. You may dislike both,
| in the same way you can dislike peanut butter and
| chocolate, but that doesn't mean they are the same or
| identical.
|
| (There are also Evangelical cults but that is a small
| percentage of Evangelicals)
| jakeinspace wrote:
| Well, in Utah I imagine that's the case.
| pessimizer wrote:
| In Utah that situation would have majority popular support.
| vorpalhex wrote:
| As a politician, it is not desirable to be connected to the
| Mormon church (they want to put their finger on the scales,
| you have to tithe a lot, etc).
|
| You want the credentials but not the cost, or you end up in
| a very hard balancing act with a lot of internal politics.
|
| There are Mormon politicians in Utah - but not as many as
| you would think. It looks like currently three Utah
| districts have Mormon reps.
|
| Locally you may see a lot more Mormons as the political
| balancing act is overall easier.
| warabe wrote:
| 1. they have caused a variety of social problems, including
| dozens of civil and criminal lawsuits
|
| 2. they have close ties to North Korea. When they met with
| North Korean leader Kim, it is estimated that as much as $4.5
| billion was given to North Korea as donations. This means that
| the Unification Church is also part of the source of funds for
| North Korea's nuclear missiles.
|
| 3. The Unification Church's doctrine is very anti-Japanese and
| Korean nationalismistic. For example, according to their dogma,
| Japan, as an Eva country, must devote all of its wealth to
| Korea, and the language of all nations must be unified in
| Korean, etc. Please note that these anti-Japanese doctrine has
| actually caused damage like high donations.
|
| After all, from the Japanese perspective, the Unification
| Church's problem is not just a religious issue, but also a
| security threat.
| chrischen wrote:
| Isn't it odd that a nationalist Japanese politician was
| associated with a nationalist Korean group?
| pasabagi wrote:
| The history is even weirder: check out the story of Kishi
| Nobusuke[0], the class A war crimminal who brought the
| Unification Church into the Japanese political mainstream.
| Also the Yakuza. Also he's Abe's grandad.
|
| [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nobusuke_Kishi
| Apocryphon wrote:
| It made more sense during the Cold War because they were
| all very anti-communist, no idea when and why the
| Unification Church is now supportive of North Korea.
| warabe wrote:
| Sun Myung Moon used fight against communism as a tool to
| establish a close relationship with LDP. Please refer to
| the article by Asahi shinbun.
| https://www.asahi.com/ajw/articles/14693688 Kishi Nobusuke,
| Shinzo Abe's grandfather, and Sun Myung Moon together found
| IFVC(International Federation for Victory over Communism).
|
| Long story short, Japanese politicians should have known
| better.
| kmeisthax wrote:
| Yes and no. It is odd only in the sense that the actions
| contradict the rhetoric. But both parties are still
| achieving their own goals and the cooperation does not
| cancel out that goal.
|
| We often think of nationalism purely as the dark side of
| in-group/out-group dynamics scaled up to the size of an
| entire country. They _are_ , but there's a dark, darker,
| yet darker side to this. The driving force behind those
| dynamics is a desire to purge the in-group of perceived
| weakness. There are plenty of reasons for a Korean person
| to hate Japanese people, or vice versa, but the reason that
| nationalists will consistently pick is that the out-group
| is "inferior". War crimes, national insults, and so on are
| all just window-dressing to that core claim.
|
| This same dynamic also applies to things you would not
| consider to be even in the same postal code as right-wing
| nationalism. Think about how much self-policing and
| internal policing happens in niche subcultures online to
| purge them of perceived weakness, and how many of the
| perpetrators of those purges are not much different from
| their targets. Nationalists care more about punishing their
| own citizens than fighting the enemy.
| stevenwoo wrote:
| I scoured articles trying to understand this, too! Is it
| simply the intersection of money/free volunteer labor and
| politics where money just wins?
|
| On the other hand we have something similar in the USA so
| who am I to judge? :)
|
| One party in our two party system appears to have lots of
| Russian connections now for some reason, and this does not
| bother most of their supporters which has approximately
| 45-50 percent of the population behind it. In past years
| this would have led to claims about treason or something
| similar from the same party, the path from Nixon to now it
| appears the only change has been how public the cooperation
| between the GOP leadership and countries openly
| antagonistic to the USA, i.e. Nixon/Kissinger with North
| Vietnam, Reagan/Bush with Iran and Trump with Russia.
| masterof0 wrote:
| 1. Roe v Wade?
|
| 2. There are many evangelical churches in the US that send
| money to dictatorships, for example, [1], [2] , I can collect
| you a longer list.
|
| 3. This point is clearly very specific to Japan, I can't find
| a bijection within a few minutes.
|
| But, we aren't that different , really.
|
| 1. https://nnoc.org/pastors-for-peace-continue-support-to-
| cuba/
|
| 2. https://juicyecumenism.com/2019/11/13/churches-supporting-
| ve...
|
| Edit: Spacing
| bluepizza wrote:
| The fact that we aren't that different does not negate the
| fact that the problem needs to be solved.
| masterof0 wrote:
| I agree, I was just suggesting is not that different. The
| problem should be addressed in both places.
| endominus wrote:
| The bijection you are looking for might be the evangelical
| groups in the US (including some politicians) who support
| Israel because they believe that if all jews return there,
| the eschaton will begin. Think what you will about their
| goals, it is difficult to reconcile the literal apocalypse
| as "good for America."
| Extra_Leaf wrote:
| >[1] The church is pretty small only making up about 27
| people and was mainly sending medical supply's and food to
| the island not funding what you may call a "dictatorships"
| They were mostly advocating for the us to remove its
| blockade on cube and reestablish relations with the island
|
| >[2] more of the same just church's sending aid to a
| country that's in economic turmoil the article title is
| blatant fear mongering
| masterof0 wrote:
| If you understand how Cuba works, you will get why this
| is the same as funding the government, not the people.
| The blockade in Cuba is more internal than external.
| There is plenty of resources online that shows the human
| rights violations, persecution, murders and
| incarcerations, the Cuban regimen have been doing for
| decades, and continue doing.
| warabe wrote:
| 3. Yes, this is very unique problem in Japan and that's why
| it is difficult to see this issue.
|
| > But, we aren't that different , really.
|
| I am not sure if I understand your point. Both U.S. and
| Japan have relatively loose regulation against cult groups,
| but as a Japanese citizen, I think this situation should be
| changed.
| MomoXenosaga wrote:
| It's easier to make fun of other countries.
|
| If memory serves Jesus said "let he who is without sin cast the
| first stone". Americans in particular should not even be
| allowed to look at stones.
| ziftface wrote:
| It's a cult. I think it would be more akin to a large portion
| of American lawmakers being ties with Scientology.
| YeahNO wrote:
| One person's established religion is just someone else's
| cult. They all engage in indoctrination and belief in magical
| thinking with absolutely no proof in the existence of its
| deity or deities.
| hn_throwaway_99 wrote:
| Semi-agree, but I think there are 2 fundamental differences
| between established religions and cults:
|
| 1. Complete shunning of non-cult members, and even harsher
| shunning of ex-members. This one may be a gray area, as
| certainly many religions identify all members of other
| religions as "going to hell", and I know Mormons who have
| been excommunicated for being gay. Still, the level of
| ostracism in mainstream religions is _nothing_ compared to,
| for example, what happens if you try to leave Scientology.
| Scientologists declare you a "subversive person", stalk
| you, and essentially try to ruin you. I know many folks who
| have left the Catholic church, but in all honestly the
| Catholic church still tries to welcome them back with open
| arms.
|
| 2. Be secretive about the details of the cult before you
| are "bought in". Say what you will about organized
| religion, but it's pretty trivial to get the full text of
| the Bible, Koran, and other religious writings. Meanwhile,
| Scientology requires you to pay thousands and thousands of
| dollars to slowly get access to their screeds, and they
| have gone after ex-members who have attempted to publish
| this information.
| wahnfrieden wrote:
| seems odd to not acknowledge how the non-secretive nature
| of modern christian religion is such a recent
| (technological and social) development and still holds
| some fringe controversy at similar levels as these other
| extreme cults
| pessimizer wrote:
| These have nothing to do with being "established
| religions." As you said, Mormons shun. Many Muslim groups
| advocate _killing_ apostates. It might be trivial to get
| a copy of the Bible, but the vast majority of how e.g.
| the Catholic Church runs is not drawn from the Bible
| using the most obvious interpretation, and is not shared
| with laymen - the Bible is not an IKEA instruction
| manual.
|
| Also Mormonism is not particularly old. Mainstream
| evangelical/charismatic Protestantism was formed
| completely from storefront Pentecostalism in the early
| part of the 20c, making it barely older than Scientology
| or even the Nation of Islam. Scientology isn't bad
| because it's not "established," it's bad because it hurts
| people.
| knodi123 wrote:
| > Still, the level of ostracism in mainstream religions
| is nothing compared to, for example, what happens if you
| try to leave Scientology.
|
| Worldwide, a majority of muslims support the idea of a
| death penalty for apostasy (renouncing the religion).
|
| Defining a cult is a lot harder than it sounds at first
| glance. My personal definition, which is not very useful
| since it's so subjective, is "A cult is a new religion
| formed on purpose by a charismatic person who is
| knowingly lying in order to gain temporal power."
| [deleted]
| the_af wrote:
| Yes in the sense that all religion has a dose of magical
| thinking, but not in the sense that cults are a specific
| set of practices that set them aside from mainstream
| religion.
|
| Shunning of members, cutting ties to non-cult people,
| taking over the finances of their members (and forcing them
| to donate).
|
| There are some gray areas and some mainstream congregations
| can cross into cult-like behavior, but in general, there is
| a demarcation.
| badRNG wrote:
| What exactly separates a "cult" from any other church? It
| seems that the word is often lobbed against minority
| religions that either aren't mainstream (or somehow related
| to mainstream religions), are recent in origin, or are viewed
| as eccentric or peculiar.
|
| There are truly damaging religious groups, but this doesn't
| seem to be what is referenced by the word cult. It seems to
| be used more often to describe religions that are unconnected
| (or less connected) to religions considered "normal" like
| Christianity, Islam, etc.
| singlow wrote:
| I think in this case it would be more similar if all of the
| party members were part of the same minority denomination.
| While most U.S. polititions are Christian, they are members
| of mostly independent churches that are organized into
| separate denominations. That is one reason that we have
| generally been wary of Catholic politicians - because we
| don't want our government to be under the influence of the
| Pope.
| Mountain_Skies wrote:
| While I won't suggest this is society's distinction between
| the two, in my mind it's about what happens if you exert
| independent thought that conflicts with the institution's
| beliefs and what happens if you attempt to leave the group.
| Many ex-Mormons claim their former church is a cult and
| that life in Mormon dominated areas become very difficult
| for those who have left the faith. Same for Jehovah's
| Witness but the impact is smaller because not many areas
| are dominated by them and you don't have to move far to get
| away from it. On the other hand, the worst cults will hunt
| you down across the country (and possibly the Earth) if
| your existence is offensive enough to them, which isn't
| something typically seen when leaving a mainstream
| Christian religion. A Mormon in Alabama leaving the church
| isn't likely to face much social ostracism while a Southern
| Baptist might, especially if they reject Christianity
| entirely, but their life isn't likely to be in danger.
| Beltalowda wrote:
| Lifted from Wikipedia:
|
| _" [H]is mother had given the church about 100 million yen
| (US$720,000), a parcel of land she had inherited from her
| father, and the house where she lived with her three
| children; she subsequently declared bankruptcy in 2002. She
| had continued donating to the church following the
| bankruptcy. A male relative later recalled being contacted
| by Yamagami and his siblings to complain that they had no
| food at home, prompting the relative to deliver meals and
| money for living expenses. [..] Yamagami's older brother,
| who had a longtime struggle with cancer, was not able to
| afford medical treatment; he died by suicide in 2015."_
|
| To me, that sounds quite a bit worse than your average
| Christian church.
|
| There are certainly some predatory Christian hucksters out
| there; people like Kenneth "I need my private jet to spread
| the gospel" Copeland spring to mind, but there are many
| more (as well as many more abusive ones). Religion is often
| a comparatively "easy" target for abuse.
|
| However, the _religion of Christianity_ as a whole isn 't
| centred around the concept of "send me your money". I think
| that's the main difference: is the religion as a whole
| _primarily_ centred around abuse, or is it just various
| groups within the religion that operate like that?
|
| There are plenty of cults within Christianity, but
| Christianity as a whole?
|
| I'm sure there are more formal and academic descriptions,
| and things can become a bit tricky around the edges for
| sure, but I find "is it primarily centred around abuse of
| its members?" to be a reasonably workable every-day
| distinction.
| Algent wrote:
| > What exactly separates a "cult" from any other church?
|
| Usually the difference between a cult and a sect is how
| hard it is to leave it. church more usually define practice
| of the "established religions" or as long as it stay close
| enough to it.
| nradov wrote:
| Islam is usually considered an established religion. And
| yet in some countries run by extremist fundamentalists,
| apostasy is literally punishable by death.
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostasy_in_Islam?wprov=sfl
| a1
| [deleted]
| castrodd wrote:
| I agree with you. But all churches start as cults. Romans
| viewed Christians the same way most Americans view
| Scientologists. Actually, Romans killed Christians, so
| probably they viewed them a tad bit worse.
| colinmhayes wrote:
| The difference is that Christianity has a huge amount of
| buy in among the American people. The unification church
| can't really say the same about the Japanese people, and in
| some ways in antithetical to the LDPs nationalistic
| politics since the church is run by Koreans.
| coliveira wrote:
| Christianity was a cult during the Roman empire. The only
| difference is the reach of these religious entities.
| the_af wrote:
| Agreed about Christianity, disagreed that it's the _only_
| difference.
|
| There is a set of cult-like behavior that distinguishes
| modern cults from mainstream established religions. Those
| practices are an important distinction.
|
| Also, the mindset required to join a fringe or secretive
| cult _today_ that shuns the rest of society, and is shunned
| by society in turn, seems relevant to me.
| pessimizer wrote:
| But plenty of them have connections to weird cults, also, due
| to the US largely being (especially in governance) a
| Protestant country. Protestantism isn't a religion, it's
| thousands of religions, each having between 1 and 100 leaders
| with constituencies between the size of a family or the
| population of a state.
|
| For example, H. Clinton's relationship with _The Family_ http
| ://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Family_(Christian_political...
| or Amy Coney Barrett's _People of Praise_
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People_of_Praise.
|
| American lawmakers are at least as if not more religiously
| bizarre than Japanese ones.
| bnralt wrote:
| It's worth pointing out that American lawmakers also have
| ties with the Unification Church. A couple of decades ago its
| founder, Sun Myung Moon, actually had a coronation in a U.S.
| Senate office building that was attended by numerous U.S.
| Senators and Congressmembers. He was declared humanity's
| messiah in the ceremony:
|
| > Mr. Davis says he held the wife's crown and was ''a bit
| surprised'' by Mr. Moon's Messiah remarks, which were
| delivered in Korean but accompanied by a written translation.
| In them, he said emperors, kings and presidents had
| ''declared to all heaven and earth that Reverend Sun Myung
| Moon is none other than humanity's Savior, Messiah, Returning
| Lord and True Parent.''
|
| > By Wednesday, after news of the event had been reported in
| the online magazine Salon and various newspapers, Capitol
| Hill was in full-blown backpedaling mode, as lawmakers who
| attended but missed the coronation -- or saw it and did not
| think much of it -- struggled to explain themselves.
|
| The Washington Times, a conservative D.C. newspaper that has
| many prominent conservatives on its staff (Tony Blankly,
| Larry Kudlow, Tony Snow) was also founded by Sun Myung Moon
| and owned by the Unification Church[2].
|
| [1] https://www.nytimes.com/2004/06/24/us/a-crowning-at-the-
| capi... [2]
| https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/asia_pacific/sun-
| myung-...
| Rackedup wrote:
| Christianity is kind of a cult too, just more popular.
| encody wrote:
| You're technically correct, but I think that's a different
| definition of the word "cult" from the colloquial, and from
| what is being used above. Wikipedia's definition describes
| a cult as "unusual," "socially deviant," and "novel." I
| don't think Christianity fits that description in America.
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cult
| pessimizer wrote:
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charismatic_Christianity
|
| ususual: a tenth of the world's population, but probably
| a third of the US population.
|
| socially deviant: a matter of opinion.
|
| novel: _I 've got books that are older._
|
| > With traditions of Pentecostalism already developed in
| the 18th century out of Protestant evangelicalism, the
| beginning of the charismatic movement in historic
| Christian Churches came in 1960 at St. Mark's Episcopal
| Church in Van Nuys, California. Dennis Bennett, the
| church's Rector, felt the Holy Spirit within him and
| announced the event to his Anglican church.
|
| > The charismatic movement reached Lutherans and
| Presbyterians in 1962. Among Roman Catholics, it spread
| around 1967. Methodists became involved in the
| charismatic movement in the 1970s.
|
| > Some nondenominational evangelical churches decided to
| follow this movement and take distance from their
| Pentecostal conventions. Calvary Chapel Costa Mesa,
| California is one of the first evangelical neo-
| charismatic churches started in 1965. In the United
| Kingdom, Jesus Army, founded in 1969, is an example of
| the impact outside of the United States. The spread of
| the charismatic movement outside of the US was also
| encouraged by Bennett, who traveled to Vancouver to
| minister there. Many other congregations were established
| in the rest of the world. Modern churches internationally
| have embraced the charismatic movement or adapted their
| own practices to incorporate it. In the United Kingdom,
| the house church movement has grown to include
| charismatic practices. Hillsong Church in Australia is
| another example of a Pentecostal church that incorporates
| the charismatic movement. The neo-charismatic movement,
| also known as the third-wave, has also spread widely
| since 1970; these churches often reject the charismatic
| or Pentecostal label but accept the general practice of
| accepting gifts of the Spirit.
|
| > Some scholars attribute the quick and successful spread
| of charismatic Christianity to its successful use of mass
| media platforms, but also to the physical experience of
| religion that it provides, which creates a personal
| connection to spiritual mediation for believers.
| HereIGoAgain wrote:
| America =/= the rest of the world
|
| That was a pretty underhanded attempt it twisting the
| facts to fit a narrative.
| flanbiscuit wrote:
| In the US we have many people who are 'christian' but they do
| not all go to the same church. What's happening in Japan is
| like saying that a majority of U.S. lawmakers went specifically
| to Joel Olsteen's church.
| zackees wrote:
| throwaway4good wrote:
| Both LDP and the Moonies were setup by the CIA to combat the
| commies.
| erdos4d wrote:
| Sauce please.
| adultSwim wrote:
| You will find more direct evidence and reporting on the
| KCIA's ties. At the time South Korea was a dictatorship
| propped up by the US. Not a big leap to go from the KCIA to
| the CIA.
|
| Wikipedia is a potential starting point.
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unification_Church
|
| Here's a Washington Post article linked by Wikipedia, _House
| Subcommittee 's Report Links Rev. Moon to the KCIA_ (1977) ht
| tps://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/politics/1977/08/05/h...
|
| New York Times covered it too.
| https://www.nytimes.com/1978/03/16/archives/unification-
| chur...
|
| Please post any specific materials you find useful. Apologies
| for not having good links/books at the ready.
|
| Journalist Tim Shorrock posted
| (https://twitter.com/TimothyS/status/1558478761615626241),
| "Speaking of the Unification Church ... has anyone else
| noticed how US media coverage of Abe's assassination stopped
| the instant that the Japanese media began uncovering the
| unsavory ties between LDP, Abe, and the Moonies? Nothing
| about this event in the US press. Zilch."
|
| Sounds like the recent Japanese press might be a good place
| to look.
| [deleted]
| [deleted]
| modernpink wrote:
| LDP links to the CIA are barely a secret. Asking for a source
| there is only to advertise one's ignorance. Not sure about
| the Moonies part however.
| ttctciyf wrote:
| One version of this is in the lobster article I linked in
| my other, longish, comment here.
| Laaas wrote:
| https://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/HL1209/S00029/reverend-
| moon-...
|
| There is a lot if you look around wrt. how the Unification
| Church was supported to disrupt communism.
| [deleted]
| dontlaugh wrote:
| This is a good summary with many references
| https://soundcloud.com/trueanonpod/mooned-in-nara
| throwaway4good wrote:
| It is so established that you can find it on Wikipedia:
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberal_Democratic_Party_(Japa.
| ..
|
| "From the 1950s through the 1970s, the United States Central
| Intelligence Agency spent millions of dollars attempting to
| influence elections in Japan to favor the LDP against more
| leftist parties such as the Socialists and the
| Communists,[24][25] although this was not revealed until the
| mid-1990s when it was exposed by The New York Times.[26]"
|
| Wikipedia only mentions that Moon was promoted by Radio Free
| Asia, here is an article that tells a bit more:
|
| https://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/HL1209/S00029/reverend-
| moon-...
|
| Reverend Moon: Cult leader, CIA asset and Bush family friend
|
| "In 1997, Congressman Donald Fraser launched an investigation
| into Moon's cult. The 444-page Congressional report alleged
| Moonie involvement with bribery, bank fraud, illegal
| kickbacks, and arms sales. The report revealed that Moon's
| 20,000-member Unification Church was a creation of the Korean
| Central Intelligence Agency (KCIA). The Moonies were working
| with KCIA Director Kim Chong Phil as a political instrument
| to influence U.S. foreign policy. The U.S. CIA was the agency
| primarily responsible for founding the KCIA after WW II. The
| Moon organization has denied any link with the U.S.
| intelligence agencies or the Korean government."
|
| I've heard the Moonies described as a "classic tale" on how
| US intelligence operations risk feeding back into US
| politics.
| ttctciyf wrote:
| Anyone pursuing this further might be interested in
| _Lobster_ Magazine 's 1991 piece by Jeffrey M Bale: _The
| Moonies, WACL and the Korean CIA_ (see [1])
|
| Regards Japan, though it's primarily concerned with "the
| links between the UC and the South Korean Central
| Intelligence Agency (KCIA)" and "the intimate connection
| between the UC and the World Anti-Communist League, an
| international umbrella organization encompassing numerous
| extreme right and neo-Nazi groups", the article finds that
| "the real key to the WACL-Moon link probably lies in Japan,
| and I must therefore trace the development of the Japanese
| UC before trying to clarify this link."
|
| And trace it he does, over several dense but fascinating
| paragraphs detailing relationships between UC precursor
| Genri Undo, "kuromaku"[2], Japanese ultranationalists and
| organized crime figures, including Yoshio Kodama [3], whose
| two lieutenants Ryoichi Sasagama and Osami Kuboki "took an
| early interest in [Genri Undo]" with Kuboki becoming
| president of the "World Christian Unification Holy Ghost
| Church", spearheading the UC presence in Japan.
|
| To give a taster, here's Bale on Kodama (the numbers in
| parens are footnotes):
|
| > To cite just one example, he provided 6.5 million yen
| through an intermediary -- ultranationalist gangster Karoku
| Tsuji -- to his Sugamo cellmate Ichiro Hatoyama for the
| purpose of establishing the Minshu To (Democratic Party), a
| new conservative party controlled by depurged prewar
| rightist politicians who were unable to obtain a dominant
| position in Prime Minister Shigeru Yoshida's bureaucrat-
| controlled Jiyu To (Liberal Party). (212)
|
| > Following the election of Hatoyama as Prime Minister, the
| two parties merged in 1955 to become the Jiyuminshu To
| (Liberal Democratic Party or LDP), the highly conservative
| pro-American party which has almost single-handedly ruled
| Japan up to the present day.
|
| > Since then, Kodama has often brought decisive pressure to
| bear on the factional struggles within the LDP, including
| arranging for the reelection of Nobusuke Kishi, another
| Sugamo cellmate, in 1959, as well as helping Eisaku Sato
| become Prime Minister in 1964. He also maintained close
| relations with other LDP politicians, such as the yakusa-
| connected LDP Vice President Bamboku Ono, (213) and his
| influence did not suffer a major setback until he was
| identified as the key 'fixer' in the Lockheed Corporation
| bribery scandal. (214)
|
| > In addition to these political activities and his
| 'legitimate' business operations, Kodama also became
| involved with numerous postwar ultranationalist and yakuza
| organisations, including the Matsuba Kai (Pine Needles
| Society), the Kokusiu Kai (National Essence Society), and
| the Gijin To (Righteous Men's or Martyrs' Party). (215) He
| served as an advisor to the predominantly Korean yakuza
| group led by Hisayuki Machii (born Gon-Yong Chong), the
| Tosei Kai (Eastern Voice Society), and organized the Kofu
| Kurabu (Friendly Relations Club) in 1965. (216)
|
| 1: http://www.8bitmode.com/rogerdog/lobster/lobster21.pdf
|
| 2: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/kuromaku
|
| 3: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yoshio_Kodama
| missedthecue wrote:
| "Set up" and "supported" are extremely different things in
| my mind. I donate to organisations, but I do not take
| credit for founding them.
| pessimizer wrote:
| Imagine I start a cult and accumulate 20 members, then
| get millions in funding from a state benefactor who only
| requires that we advocate for them, then expand to a
| million members over the next decade, although sometime
| in the fifth year I was deposed and replaced by a
| successor hand-picked by the state benefactor.
|
| There's definitely an extreme difference between what
| I've done here and what the state benefactor did, but the
| difference is that I was far less important than the
| benefactor. If anything, the state benefactor "set up" a
| political organization, and used my glorified yoga class
| as a "support."
| [deleted]
| cdavid wrote:
| I don't know about the unification church side of things, but
| it is well documented that the USA supported heavily the LDP
| inthe 50ies, including sinister politicians like Kishi, to
| advance their interest and fight communism.
|
| Kishi happened to be Abe's grand father.
| warabe wrote:
| It is so crazy that someone like Kishi, who largely
| responsible for WW2, became politician again after WW2,
| then his grandson, Shinzo Abe, was also prime minister. I
| really don't understand why people support these
| politicians. I don't think the way Japanese people think of
| their politicians have changed before and after WW2. I just
| feel sad to see the current situation of this country.
|
| More than half of People never vote. Things will never be
| changed. I feel so powerless.
| coliveira wrote:
| It is not the people supporting these politicians. They
| are put there by higher powers (people with property,
| money, and international connections).
| pessimizer wrote:
| Nazis continued to run West Germany after WWII, too. The
| US preferred that.
| lucozade wrote:
| https://twitter.com/mooniespeppa
| twright wrote:
| A good analogy is that it was a bit like Operation Gladio[1]
| but for Japan. A short article from the LA Times (1994):
| https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-
| xpm-1994-10-09-mn-48400-... A longer article from NYT (1994):
| https://www.nytimes.com/1994/10/09/world/cia-spent-
| millions-...
|
| [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Gladio
| hollywood_court wrote:
| I don't know about the LDP part but I do know that my father
| was told to "drop it" when he discovered that the flower
| children's passports were being withheld and sent to Korea. He
| was told that by a police chief though and not the CIA.
| adultSwim wrote:
| Not sure why this fact is downvoted
| trynumber9 wrote:
| The CIA supported political parties that opposed communism all
| over the world. Even socialist parties in Europe. The CIA
| didn't setup the LDP anymore than it setup the Portuguese
| Socialist Party.
| https://www.nytimes.com/1976/01/07/archives/cia-funding-in-e...
| concinds wrote:
| > The CIA didn't setup the LDP anymore than it setup the
| Portuguese Socialist Party
|
| Yeah, it setup and ran both equally.
|
| > The most crucial interaction between the CIA and the
| Liberal Democratic Party was the exchange of information for
| money. It was used to support the party and to recruit
| informers within it. The Americans established paid
| relationships with promising young men who became, a
| generation later, members of parliament, ministers, and elder
| statesmen. Together they promoted the LDP and subverted
| Japan's Socialist Party and labor unions. [...]
|
| > The Japanese came to describe the political system created
| with the CIA's support as kozo oshoku--"structural
| corruption." The CIA's payoffs went on into the 1970s. The
| structural corruption of the political life of Japan
| continued long thereafter.
|
| > "We ran Japan during the occupation, and we ran it a
| different way in these years after the occupation," said the
| CIA's Horace Feldman, who served as station chief in Tokyo.
| "General MacArthur had his ways. We had ours."
|
| From the book _Legacy of Ashes: The History of the CIA_
| (https://www.amazon.com/Legacy-Ashes-History-Tim-
| Weiner/dp/03...).
| lern_too_spel wrote:
| The LDP was helped by the CIA. The Moonies were not. They were
| helped by the KCIA and then by the GOP, who they trade favors
| with in the US. The only link to the CIA is George H. W. Bush.
| https://www.nytimes.com/1978/03/16/archives/unification-chur...
| realce wrote:
| This feels a lot like that "witches coven" from SK a few years
| ago. Are cults really that influential in Asia?
| [deleted]
| eunos wrote:
| East Asian society somehow went almost uncontrollable with
| cults. Yellow turban, Taiping, Aum Shinrikyo and now this.
| purim wrote:
| Think you are tad exaggerating things for sensationalism
| here, there is nowhere near the level of cult behaviour you
| describe. Aum Shinrikyo was a small group. There are other
| religious groups but they aren't extremists. I would argue
| that there are far more Christian sect groups in the States
| who are armed.
| Apocryphon wrote:
| Also both the Yellow Turban and Taiping Tianguo are
| millenarian groups that arise during bad times. They're not
| all that different from political movements that seek to
| rebel against the state, just with less rational-seeming
| ideologies. But to the discontented, it's very rational.
|
| Also, those groups existed hundreds of years apart from
| each other, let alone from Aum Shinrikyo.
| purim wrote:
| Well if we are gonna travel that far back in time we
| should also be discussing the numerous cults that formed
| out of Europe and rosicrucianism still going strong
| eunos wrote:
| They don't gas major Subway
| purim wrote:
| SpaceManNabs wrote:
| qanon is getting a good run with. same cult-political nexus
| too.
| yongjik wrote:
| Umm, the yellow turban rebellion happened in 184 AD. It's
| like saying West Europe can't control cultists and citing
| Celtic druids.
| thematrixturtle wrote:
| Yes, they are. The LDP (Japan's ruling party) is quite openly
| in coalition with Komeito, the political wing of Soka Gakkai, a
| prominent Buddhist-ish cult.
| PaulHoule wrote:
| Japan had a cult crisis circa 1990. This was the most famous
| example
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aum_Shinrikyo
|
| however as the bubble economy popped there was a moral panic
| over financially exploitative cults and closely related
| multilevel marketing scams.
| pessimizer wrote:
| Japan and Korea _have_ a cult crisis, a lot of them
| Christian:
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_new_religions
| https://www.france24.com/en/20181122-mission-god-south-
| korea... https://thediplomat.com/2014/06/the-cults-of-
| south-korea/
| deepdriver wrote:
| For those skimming, Aum Shinrikyo is the cult responsible
| for the Tokyo subway sarin attack. What's often overlooked
| is that the cult _synthesized the sarin gas themselves_ in
| a self-made sophisticated chemical weapons lab:
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tokyo_subway_sarin_attack#Che
| m...
|
| When their headquarters were raided, police found enough
| weaponry to fight a small war:
|
| >Over the next week, the full scale of Aum's activities was
| revealed for the first time. At the cult's headquarters in
| Kamikuishiki on the foot of Mount Fuji, police found
| explosives, chemical weapons, and a Russian Mil Mi-17
| military helicopter. While the finding of biological
| warfare agents such as anthrax and Ebola cultures was
| reported, those claims now appear to have been widely
| exaggerated.[52] There were stockpiles of chemicals that
| could be used for producing enough sarin to kill four
| million people.[53]
|
| They bought a sheep farm in Australia to mine uranium in
| order to enrich it and build nuclear weapons:
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banjawarn_Station#Aum_Shinrik
| y...
|
| Had they not been caught, I have little doubt they'd have
| eventually succeeded.
| Mountain_Skies wrote:
| One downside of having an industrialized high technology
| society with a good education system is that radicals
| will tend to have the skills and knowledge required to
| create harm on a large scale.
| JHer wrote:
| Murakami wrote a non-fiction book about the Sarin attacks
| and the Aum cult, Underworld. I'm not sure if it's
| accurate (he's a fiction writer, afterall) but it's very
| fascinating and sent many chills down my spine.
| pessimizer wrote:
| Best way to understand Aum Shinrikyo is to watch the two
| ungooglable documentaries about it:
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_(1998_Japanese_film) and
| A2.
|
| No different than other cults. A bunch of once aimless
| people who found purpose by subsuming their existences to
| the will of a venerated man (who teaches yoga in his
| apartment.)
| KaoruAoiShiho wrote:
| God damn someone has a god complex.
| deepdriver wrote:
| Yes, the cult leader declared himself Christ:
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shoko_Asahara
| zumu wrote:
| I lived in a Soka Gakkai heavy neighborhood in Tokyo. They
| tried to recruit me a few times. I've been to their services
| and social events. It's big thing. They even have offices
| world-wide, with a few in Cali.
|
| Generally while it's pretty culty, it doesn't do any of that
| cut-ties with non-culters and its beliefs are derived from
| Nichiren Buddhism which is pretty standard in Japan. As a
| result it peacefully exists out in the open for the most
| part. Not defending it, but it walks a fine line between
| religion and culty cooporation more so than the normal
| "cult".
| moses55 wrote:
| aikinai wrote:
| Japanese cults are absolutely nothing like Freemasons.
| Larrikin wrote:
| Generalizing Asian countries is usually as useful as
| generalizing Canada, the US, and Mexico as just North American
| countries. There are some extremely high level things you can
| point out, but it's often useless to try and come to
| conclusions about the group as a whole.
| purim wrote:
| Mountain_Skies wrote:
| The show 'Silicon Valley' really hit the nail on the head
| in the episode where a character was horrified to have been
| outed as being Christian. Maybe only Donald Trump unites
| more of the tech community in their hatred.
| purim wrote:
| The other day I was reading a thread about how certain
| ethnic group ages far slower and make great wives. Then
| the person mentioned he lived around the US base in
| Japan. Yet the population of mixed race children who will
| never see their Western dad in Japan is exploding.
| Der_Einzige wrote:
| Take mexico out and add the other anglos and you've got
| yourself a good an acceptable generalization!
| earthboundkid wrote:
| Generalizing North America is a totally worthwhile thing to
| do. Why would it not be? They all have legacies of
| colonialism, racism, Western education, etc. Obviously,
| Mexico is more like the rest of Central America than the US
| and Canada, but so what? Japan is more like the Koreas than
| it is like Cambodia.
| o_1 wrote:
| Yes generalizations are the real solution. Wait weren't
| those the things that started racism and colonialism...?
| the things you seemed to be concerned about?
| vorpalhex wrote:
| I'm very offended you are generalizing the distinct five
| regions of Mexico.
|
| Or should I be offended you are generalizing Oaxaca as a
| singular region?
|
| When does a pile of sand become a beach?
| hollywood_court wrote:
| My adoptive father was an LEO who spent most of his 40+ year long
| career between the Bay Area and Alabama. He had plenty of stories
| to tell about the Moonies. He spent 10 years as basically the
| right hand man and enforcer for the police chief in a very well
| know southern city. He would literally run folks out of town on
| the request of the chief and/or the mayor. Sometimes he'd use
| violence and other times he'd use intel.
|
| Mostly harmless stuff like running out the Dixie Mafia when they
| setup up porn shops or illegal gambling dens. He spent 3 years
| under cover in the KKK and helped ruin their credibility in the
| Central Alabama area.
|
| And then some questionable stuff like breaking into a Nation of
| Islam church and spending multiple days camped out in their attic
| until he was able to take photos of the leader of that church
| engaging in extra marital affairs with the wives of church
| members. He used those photos to cause quite a bit of mayhem and
| violence amongst the church members until the church was no more.
|
| But his most interesting story is when he claims to have
| discovered (I have never been able to verify this like I have the
| other stories) that the Moonies from Europe had their passports
| withheld and then those passports were sent to Korea in order to
| get their operatives into the country.
|
| I have no idea if that was true, but every single time we saw
| someone selling a flower somewhere he would share that story.
| [deleted]
| yborg wrote:
| How would having a European passport be useful to insert
| Koreans into the US? A Korean named 'Hans Schmidt' would
| presumably arouse some suspicion with INS, especially if he
| didn't look anything like the photo.
| hollywood_court wrote:
| I was led to believe that the passports themselves could be
| altered.
|
| Again I was never able to verify this like the other stories.
| I saw the pictures from the klan rallies and the Nation of
| Islam church. I've heard numerous people tell me how folks
| used to scatter whenever my father was walking toward them on
| the street or sidewalk.
|
| But all I have is his word in regards to the Moonies and
| passports.
| alex_sf wrote:
| > And then some questionable stuff like breaking into a Nation
| of Islam church ...
|
| I'm not sure why that should be more controversial than ruining
| the KKK. Change a couple words and the doctrines aren't much
| different.
| pessimizer wrote:
| > Change a couple words and the doctrines aren't much
| different.
|
| Saying this is just a declaration that you know nothing about
| either the KKK or The Nation of Islam. The KKK are aging
| race-terrorists, and the NoI are almost Scientologists. The
| KKK murders people, the NoI thinks that white people were
| created by evil alien scientists.
| hollywood_court wrote:
| He was welcomed into the KKK as a member. He didn't do
| anything illegal. They gladly posed for photos for him. They
| used his land for gatherings.
|
| Breaking into the church and spending days there was illegal.
| trackflak wrote:
| Directly infiltrating one of these groups is easier than
| the other, depending on your skin colour. And I'm not
| certain it can be called illegal if it is an agent of the
| law acting under legal authorisation.
| hollywood_court wrote:
| A police officer can't legally commit B&E without a
| warrant.
|
| That's why he just made sure the photos got into the
| hands of other members of the Nation. He effectively
| allowed the problem to solve itself.
|
| Edit: I just realized that you may not be from the US or
| be familiar with how the law works here. You need a
| warrant to do what my father did to the Nation of Islam.
| None of the photos his took or any of the other evidence
| would have been admissible in court. He broke the law
| when he broke into the church.
| trackflak wrote:
| I wasn't fully aware of how the US law would apply in
| that situation. Thanks for the clarity.
|
| I don't think the ability for the state to act
| arbitrarily is a good thing either. It is a morally ropey
| area when you're law enforcement engaging with groups
| that threaten the freedom and stability of wider society.
| But I suppose that's why warrants and such safeguards
| exist.
| pessimizer wrote:
| > I don't think the ability for the state to act
| arbitrarily is a good thing either.
|
| I don't believe this is true if you give even individual
| representatives of law enforcement the latitude to decide
| whether religious groups threaten the freedom and
| stability of wider society (and especially if you think
| that the Nation of Islam, an inwardly-focused group that
| I'm not aware of either imprisoning or destabilizing
| society, meets that bar.) Not only that, but even
| assuming that they would have the latitude, as
| individuals, to _act against them._
|
| Is "not liking white people for outer space reasons" or
| "being anti-Semitic, but not hurting Jews" enough of a
| reason for you to actually support improvised state-
| supported aggression by individual cops? Is that the
| model case in your mind where the state acting
| arbitrarily is for the good?
| Kukumber wrote:
| ilegal_migrant wrote:
| thematrixturtle wrote:
| I'm continually amazed that Abe's assassin appears to have
| successfully turned the media spotlight exactly where he wanted
| it to be, and so successfully turned public sentiment against Abe
| that a vast majority of the population now opposes a state
| funeral for him.
| [deleted]
| skhr0680 wrote:
| I'd question if public sentiment was ever pro-Abe; he regularly
| antagonized and taxed the middle class while doing little or
| nothing to help them, even during the COVID pandemic. His
| connection to the Moonies is just the icing on the cake.
| Everyone has a relative or knows someone who lost all their
| money to a cult.
| yorwba wrote:
| The Abe cabinet had approval ratings above 60% in 2013, but
| the trend from then on was mostly downwards, with disapproval
| at times exceeding approval.
| https://www.nhk.or.jp/senkyo/shijiritsu/ Approval is red,
| disapproval blue; Abe is An Bei
| maybelsyrup wrote:
| Don't forget his strong family ties to psychotic Japanese
| fascism and racism [1,2], and his personal affinity for
| heinous war crimes and human experimentation in Imperial
| Japan [3].
|
| Imagine your next door neighbor going out in public wearing a
| Dr. Mengele t-shirt and you start to get Abe's vibe. Complete
| ghoul.
|
| I know the Japanese aren't exactly excited to take
| responsibility for their role in WW2, but good for them all
| the same for seeing through this guy's bullshit. Every now
| and then these lone nuts get it right, I guess?
|
| [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shintaro_Abe
|
| [2] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nobusuke_Kishi
|
| [3] https://koreajoongangdaily.joins.com/news/article/article
| .as...
| Laaas wrote:
| I don't think these ties make him as unpopular as you
| think. The third link is also from a heavily biased source.
| throwaway123989 wrote:
| > The third link is also from a heavily biased source.
|
| The link referred to: https://koreajoongangdaily.joins.co
| m/news/article/article.as...
|
| Wow, "biased source", what a word!
|
| I think aside from the universal "China is bad" theme,
| the other theme closely related in Asian political
| discussion in HN, is that "Japan already did her part for
| their WWII and imperialism war crimes"...
|
| Unfortunately, no.
|
| Japan has never addressed the issue with any nations that
| they invaded in WWII. Literally, each and every suffered
| from Japanese imperialism invasion still have deep and
| broad hostility towards Japan whenever the topic start to
| divert to WWII and the era.
|
| I have no idea was it Japan government intentionally
| doing this inadequate job, or are they simply incompetent
| on this matter.
|
| But to call this website "heavily biased"... Bravo, this
| is borderline racism towards the people living in the
| nations suffered from Japanese invasions.
| lostlogin wrote:
| Can you explain this further? That article is pretty
| damming and includes a photo.
| yongjik wrote:
| Not commenting on the article itself, but in general
| Joong-ang Ilbo is right in the center of conservative,
| pro-chaebol, pro-trade political section. It's owned by
| members of Samsung's royal family.
|
| If anything, I'd expect Joong-ang Ilbo to be biased
| _toward_ Japan.
| maybelsyrup wrote:
| > The third link is also from a heavily biased source.
|
| Say what you mean.
| mrcheesebreeze wrote:
| he means its obviously biased, a korean publication will
| clearly try their best to portray the events as they see
| it.
|
| South korea is very anti-japan, not that I blame them,
| but its bad enough that I wouldn't trust news from it
| unless it has proved itsself to be particularly
| trustworthy.
|
| This goes the other way around too, to this day koreans
| in japan are mistreated and japan is always putting
| propaganda especially in relation to disputed areas like
| dokdo.
|
| from the recent japan olympics we see they are okay with
| pissing off all their neighbors as well as being two
| faced regarding these disputes.
|
| korean and japanese news don't act unbiased at all in
| relation to eachother.
| pessimizer wrote:
| So it's purely that the source is Korean, and nothing
| specific about the source or its reputation. No need for
| all the verbiage. The paper can't be trusted due to the
| nationality of the people who publish it.
| maybelsyrup wrote:
| Assuming this is what they meant by "biased", it doesn't
| actually say anything.
|
| > a korean publication will clearly try their best to
| portray the events as they see it.
|
| This is true of anyone, anywhere, ever.
|
| > South korea is very anti-japan, not that I blame them,
| but its bad enough that I wouldn't trust news from it
| unless it has proved itsself to be particularly
| trustworthy.
|
| So South Korea has reasons for being not too keen on
| Japan, which you understand, but you also wouldn't trust
| them to talk about that? Does anyone with any grievance
| deserve trust, in your eyes?
|
| Also, your issue is that ... a South Korean newspaper
| exists, and publishes things?
|
| > korean and japanese news don't act unbiased at all in
| relation to eachother.
|
| First, why should they? You've just given plenty of
| reason for each side to be biased. Second, the hidden
| expectation that people _ought_ to act "unbiased",
| whatever that means, is trying (and failing) to do a lot
| of heavy lifting here. It says "I want more ____ before I
| believe the claim", but you don't say what that is, and I
| get the impression that nothing would be enough.
|
| All you need to do here is look at the photo.
| numpad0 wrote:
| I think the expression he opted not to use is that SK-
| Japan relationship is toxic. There is a misunderstanding
| that SK and Japan are in good terms as strategic partners
| with similarly developed societies, more like a divorced
| couple after couple 911 calls and court visits.
| viridian wrote:
| Should I trust the Russian press on the topic of Ukraine
| or NATO?
|
| i.e.
|
| "So Russia has reasons for being not too keen on Ukraine
| and NATO, which you understand, but you also wouldn't
| trust them to talk about that? Does anyone with any
| grievance deserve trust, in your eyes?"
|
| In my view, no, I would not trust or give much positive
| weight to Russia's opinions on Ukraine and NATO.
| watwut wrote:
| The reason Russian press should not be treated is that it
| lies awful lot and that journalis who don't lie end up
| being closed or imprisoned.
|
| Should you trust what Jews write about Nazi? Should you
| trust what Ukrainians say about Russians soldiers in
| Bucha or their analysis of Russia?
|
| The rule was never that you can't trust anything a
| country writes about another country.
| least wrote:
| > So South Korea has reasons for being not too keen on
| Japan, which you understand, but you also wouldn't trust
| them to talk about that? Does anyone with any grievance
| deserve trust, in your eyes?
|
| Trust in the matter that they've grievances with? Not
| really. It's already a chore trying to discern biases in
| media and cross check facts across multiple sources. I
| don't think it's particularly useful to spend time giving
| much credence to a source that you know is biased. It's
| like getting all my news about Joe Biden from Fox News
| and the Daily Caller. Why waste my time?
| watwut wrote:
| > Trust in the matter that they've grievances with? Not
| really.
|
| Does this automatox mistrust applies to all victims of
| aggression/imperialism/genocide like Yazidi, Jews, etc?
|
| As in, this logic means that you are determined not to
| trust victims of something, purely because they are
| victims and talk about it.
| least wrote:
| Trust is earned; it should not be given freely. As I've
| already said, it's already a gigantic burden to try to
| corroborate claims and distill biases from all media, so
| there's little reason to spend time doing so from sources
| I already know are biased, especially if there are other
| sources available.
|
| > Does this automatox mistrust applies to all victims of
| aggression/imperialism/genocide like Yazidi, Jews, etc?
|
| It applies to any party that is making assertions about
| something where there's a clear conflict of interest. It
| is not saying what is being said is false, just that it
| is not automatically true and requires more scrutiny
| because it's from a biased source. I think Ukrainians are
| victims of a Russian invasion but that does not mean that
| I think that Ukrainian news sources are particularly
| reliable with regards to reports on the war. That isn't
| asserting that they are lying either, just that those
| claims require _more_ verification.
|
| > As in, this logic means that you are determined not to
| trust victims of something, purely because they are
| victims and talk about it.
|
| Determined to not trust implies that I'm actively going
| out of my way to think that anything coming out of a
| victim's mouth is a lie or deceitful. I'm not saying that
| at all.
| pessimizer wrote:
| No, it's more like getting all of your news about Joe
| Biden from any US source, not just the ones that you
| don't like.
| actually_a_dog wrote:
| Be careful saying things like "psychotic Japanese fascism"
| here. You can expect @dang to slap your hand for spreading
| "nationalistic flamebait." Why they don't put something
| like this in the guidelines is beyond me.
| maybelsyrup wrote:
| No thanks. I trust dang to function in the way he sees
| fit. And because I meant what I said, and chose those
| words carefully, I'll trust myself to do the same.
| oxff wrote:
| Someone over at Twitter called it the most successful robloxing
| in a while for this exact reason.
| deepdriver wrote:
| Is "Robloxing" the new "but in Minecraft?"
|
| https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/in-minecraft
| ajay-d wrote:
| It really astounding how much of a success it was. Related
| article and discussions:
|
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32571989
| Kukumber wrote:
| I don't know why do you push this foreign view on their country
| (i kind of know, i'm just trying to be playful, hopefully you
| got the reference), maybe you have a specific agenda, i won't
| comment on it
|
| However i'll remind you that for the majority of Japanese, Abe
| is a 'traitor' (their word) [1]
|
| [1] - https://www.straitstimes.com/asia/east-asia/abe-ignores-
| cont...
| yorwba wrote:
| Seems like you linked the wrong article.
| Kukumber wrote:
| No, it's the proper article, journalist covering an
| information, up to various investigators to figure out the
| links
|
| As for the traitor thing, it's what the population is
| saying, try to get in touch with students, it's what
| contributed to the assassination of Abe and the current
| events (majority of the population against a national
| funeral, why? it was their prime minister, such figure this
| disliked?)
|
| My personal opinion: You don't assassinate your prime
| minister over a donation to a religious group, you do it
| because you are a nationalist and you punish act of treason
| PaulHoule wrote:
| Japan is a strange place. Polls show very low trust in the
| government, but the LDP has been in power since WWII almost
| continuously. A low faction of Japanese people claim to
| "believe in God" but Japanese participate in religious rituals
| at a high rate.
|
| Abe was controversial because he wanted to amend Japan's
| pacifist contribution which is a huge can of worms. Because
| Japan is so culturally homogeneous I think they'd have a very
| easy time picking an outgroup to blame for problems.
| supercheetah wrote:
| Is it that unusual? LDP is a conservative party that holds a
| majority with the voting public, and the opposition to
| conservatives everywhere is often much more fractured.
| krapp wrote:
| Seeing it from the outside, the LDP seems like Japan's
| Republican party, Komeito is the Evangelical Christian
| bloc, and Abe is your basic Conservative running on
| American exceptionalism and traditional cultural values.
|
| The biggest obvious difference is the failure of the LDP to
| successfully repeal Article 9, but as I understand it, that
| doesn't have nearly as much popular support in Japan as war
| posturing does in the US.
| PaulHoule wrote:
| Britain lurched to the right after Margaret Thatcher but
| that didn't keep Labor from being in power for a few years
| (by co-opting the Tory program the same way Clinton co-
| opted Reagan) Germany, Israel, France, and numerous
| countries with parliamentary systems have power alternate
| between parties.
|
| As for "opposition to conservatives everywhere is often
| much more fractured" that makes me think of an observation
| I've had which is that conservatives in the US are united
| by the idea that there is a way that things are "spozed" to
| be whereas what passes for the left in the US are a groups
| of people who perceive themselves to either be outgroups or
| be supportive of outgroups. The problem is that
| racial/ethnic groups such as blacks or latinos don't
| automatically support, say, transsexual maximalism.
| Environmentalism is still perceived as a "white thing" even
| though blacks are worse off when it comes to exposure to
| toxics. "Environmental racism" as an issue just hasn't
| sold.
| bamboozled wrote:
| No real opposition.
|
| Just factions within the LDP.
| SenHeng wrote:
| As is often mentioned in motorsport: "To finish first,
| first you must finish".
|
| The Japanese can be pragmatic to a fault. Being in the LDP
| more or less guarantees that you'll 'finish'. You may then
| focus your efforts on implementing the changes you're able
| to.
| beebmam wrote:
| >Because Japan is so culturally homogeneous I think they'd
| have a very easy time picking an outgroup to blame for
| problems.
|
| The US is the opposite, and its diversity doesn't stop them
| from doing it. Often, fully justified too, like in the case
| of the Soviet Union or Communist China. So I'm not very
| persuaded by this reasoning.
| boxed wrote:
| > very low trust in the government, but the LDP has been in
| power since WWII almost continuously
|
| US Congress has an almost 80% (!!!) disapproval rating.
| https://www.statista.com/statistics/207579/public-
| approval-r... yet people are basically lifers in there. The
| Japanese system was largely modeled after the US, so seems
| logical...
| kadoban wrote:
| > A low faction of Japanese people claim to "believe in God"
| but Japanese participate in religious rituals at a high rate.
|
| Wouldn't both a Buddhist and a believer in Shintoism tend to
| answer no to "belief in God"?
|
| Also my impression is that the Japanese are generally just
| into rituals, they don't seem to need much excuse.
| frellus wrote:
| > Wouldn't both a Buddhist and a believer in Shintoism tend
| to answer no to "belief in God"?
|
| Shintoism == believe in many "gods" or spirits, but not one
| singular "God".
|
| +1 on the "superstition" points here.
|
| Source: my wife is Japanese. Also, I've seen "Spirited
| Away" more times than I care to say.
| astrange wrote:
| I'm not sure Shinto involves "beliefs" (though I never
| asked), it's more like a set of cultural rituals like
| Christmas.
| PaulHoule wrote:
| To the point, Christianity has very little market
| penetration in Japan. People there don't feel the need.
| mrcheesebreeze wrote:
| buddhists do believe in GOD, just not the same way
| christians do.
|
| Anyone who claims its athiest is mistaken and hasn't done
| enough research into it.
|
| Can't speak on real shintoism, I don't know anything about
| it, but the meiji era state-shintoism held the emperor as
| their deity.
| boxed wrote:
| The basic tenets of "faith" of buddhism are literally
|
| 1. nothing is permanent (not even gods) 2. there is no
| soul (literally "atma" which can also mean god) 3.
| because humans don't accept 1 and 2, we are unsatisfied
|
| The three marks are the bedrock of buddhism.
|
| Now, buddhisTS, meaning people who call themselves
| buddhists often do believe in gods or god. Just like here
| in Sweden most people who call themselves Christians
| don't believe in the Trinity, the virgin birth, the
| divinity of Jesus, or any other of things many christians
| would think are mandatory for the faith.
|
| You need to keep your terms separate. Buddhism is
| _agnostic_ , it says that if there are gods then they
| also are subject to the natural laws. Buddhists can
| believe anything.
| someperson wrote:
| The word is superstitious. Other parts of Asia (like China)
| often claim no religious belief but are _very_
| superstitious too.
| jaldhar wrote:
| It's "superstitious" from a Christian (particularly
| Protestant) point of view but this is what religion has
| historically been for most people. Even in rural England
| in the 1970s I saw the farmers had all kinds of
| observances related to saints, seasons etc. that didn't
| involve the church. I like to joke that the low belief in
| Christianity in England is because most Englishmen are
| actually druids!
| eloisius wrote:
| I think some Chinese (I don't want to extend it to
| "Eastern" because I don't know) ways of thinking are
| "superstitious" from any rational standpoint. Even in
| non-religious contexts, it's common to believe in things
| like being careful not to accidentally invite a ghost to
| stay at your house during ghost month. Or take something
| like blood types, a Western medical discovery. Many
| people In Taiwan and Japan believe blood types can say
| something about your temperament or use it for match
| making.
| numpad0 wrote:
| I think a huge source of confusion around East Asian
| cultures and rituals/religions is that this religion-
| culture has no formal names, definitions, structures and
| boundaries. There is no church or a verse responsible for
| the upside down Fu on a wall of a downtown Chinese
| restaurant, but there is it, and the only word applicable
| is superstitions. On the other hand there are _Christ_
| -mas cakes with a smiling figurine of a Saint standing on
| it.
| kurthr wrote:
| See fan death in Korea:
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fan_death
|
| Belief in fan death is still common even among successful
| educated people in their 30s-60s. Don't argue, it won't
| get you anywhere that a flat earther won't take you.
| easywood wrote:
| It's a euphemism for suicide.
| kurthr wrote:
| Preserving family honor may be why fan death caught on,
| but the media surrounding it has created an entirely
| different and sustaining belief.
| naniwaduni wrote:
| The thing about polling people about superstition is that
| people _generally believe their own beliefs_ , so you're
| only going to conclude that other people are
| superstitious when they believe things _different from
| you_. So at best you have a noisy metric of ~religious
| tolerance.
| babypuncher wrote:
| Religion is basically just organized superstition
| kadoban wrote:
| I have noticed, anecdotally, that the non-religious tend
| to be more superstitious, but no that's not really what I
| mean.
|
| Japan just has a lot of rituals that people do daily and
| ~seasonally, and they tend to be well attended. The few
| people I've talked to about it didn't seem to have some
| superstitious or religious reason to do them, it's just a
| thing to do.
| xenadu02 wrote:
| > Japan just has a lot of rituals that people do daily
| and ~seasonally
|
| We have the same thing in western societies, it just
| isn't often as homogeneous. Taking the USA for example we
| don't call them rituals, they're just "how we do things"
| and the like.
|
| Honestly I find it similar to the formal system of
| addressing people in Japanese and other languages with
| lots of words or modifiers for expressing your
| relationship to another person. We do the same thing in
| English, just less formally and with more variation among
| groups and regions. For example even if I am familiar
| enough to address my boss by first name I wouldn't
| address them a nickname: shortening names or nicknames
| tend to flow down or across the hierarchy in English,
| rarely up. The exceptions themselves are usually
| expressions of an extremely close relationship. Obviously
| this doesn't apply to people who are so far removed from
| the speaker that it isn't a relationship at all... that's
| another unwritten informal rule: if we grunts have a
| nickname for the CEO it would be extremely rude to use it
| in a meeting where the CEO is present, even if not
| addressing them directly.
| rgrieselhuber wrote:
| Superstition and Gnosticism go hand in hand in many ways,
| chiefly in the belief that matter or identifiable bits of
| matter are or can be corrupted on an essential level. In
| Japanese, the word "Wu re" has this nuance and you see it
| reflected also in any societies built on caste
| structures.
| boxed wrote:
| The level of confusion and arrogance to call other
| religions than your own "superstition" is mind boggling.
| Especially since one of those religions is Buddhism which
| quite literally doesn't even believe in gods!
| adastra22 wrote:
| This is a cultural difference I think. Asking if you
| believe in God in the west is generally inclusive of such
| superstition.
| vorpalhex wrote:
| It's not just superstition. Rituals play an important
| part for the human mind even in the absence of
| supernatural belief.
| sangnoir wrote:
| Reciting the Pledge of Allegiance at school, or singing
| national anthems at non-national events come to mind as
| rituals not affiliated with the supernatural[1]
|
| I hazard a majority of Americans (religious or not)
| voluntarily partake in those rituals.
|
| 1. I suppose rituals require venerated objects/subjects,
| and this is often religious, but does not have to be
| vorpalhex wrote:
| This is addendum, not correction.
|
| Rituals have a few distinct elements:
|
| + Repetition both in the ritual and of the ritual itself.
|
| + Assigned time or place. Eg praying before dinner, or
| Christmas mass.
|
| + Fetish. Some kind of object or words, a "solidification
| of intent". This can be a garment or some specific
| movement too.
|
| So yes, an anthem is absolutely a ritual, as is a
| specific cheer for a sports team, under this framework.
|
| Rituals serve several purposes including fostering group
| identity (the family praying before dinner together),
| marking something as special (the anthem before a sports
| game) and demarcation (Christmas mass). Obviously a
| ritual can fulfill some or a blend of these objectives.
|
| Rituals, I believe, matter for the subconcious and non-
| rational parts of the human psyche. I think intentional,
| religious or non-religious, rituals are a useful tool.
| Retric wrote:
| Sort of, the pledge includes a "One nation under God" bit
| but few take it in a religious context.
| vorpalhex wrote:
| That also came much later and if we take it in the same
| sense many of the founding fathers used the word "God",
| it would not be compatible with mainstream Christian
| theology.
| bell-cot wrote:
| >..."believe in God"...
|
| In context (modern Japanese, capital-G "God"), I suspect that
| phrase would generally be interpreted to mean "believe in the
| monotheistic God of Christianity and other Western/Middle
| Eastern Abrahamic religions".
| coliveira wrote:
| Belief in gods and participation in rituals are different
| things. Japanese people are very traditional, they like to
| maintain the rituals of their predecessors. However, this
| doesn't imply that they believe in traditional gods. This may
| be strange for people that grew up on Christianity, but it is
| natural once you stop believing in supernatural beings.
| vorpalhex wrote:
| Plenty of religions were happy to add Jesus to their
| pantheon too.
| [deleted]
| thanhhaimai wrote:
| > A low faction of Japanese people claim to "believe in God"
| but Japanese participate in religious rituals at a high rate
|
| This is similar to what we have in Vietnam.
|
| A very large portion of the country, last estimated about
| 80%, consider themselves atheists. They don't believe God
| exists, and they are superstitious only in a joking way.
|
| However, most of us also go to the temple for "religious
| activities". It's not because people truly believe in God,
| but because many traditional activities like Tet holidays
| (Lunar New Year), funerals, or anniversaries have usually
| associated with them. Also, people don't mind going to the
| temples even when they don't believe in God because the
| temples are much more relax (chill/zen). When I was young, I
| visit the temple myself just to chill and enjoy the scenery
| despite having no association with Buddhism.
| 082349872349872 wrote:
| > _...but the LDP has been in power since WWII almost
| continuously._
|
| My impression is that gerrymandering initially associated
| with the Reverse Course[0] has much to do with those
| electoral results.
|
| (But maybe not? A cursory search turns up an article[1]
| complaining that voters in a rural district had --only--
| twice the voting power of urban voters, which certainly
| sounds inferior to the extent of US practise)
|
| [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reverse_Course
|
| [1] https://www.eastasiaforum.org/2022/04/29/fixing-japans-
| gerry...
| staringback wrote:
| Rural districts having more "voting power" is not
| gerrymandering.
| HereIGoAgain wrote:
| This!
|
| It's not a good mentality to have in this regard anyway..
| Not unless you like growing your on food etc. lol
| blowski wrote:
| > A low faction of Japanese people claim to "believe in God"
| but Japanese participate in religious rituals at a high rate.
|
| Most people in the UK celebrate Christmas, including
| atheists.
| themaninthedark wrote:
| The religious rituals they participate in are things like
| going to the shrine at New Years to pray, paying money to
| the local shrine for blessings for birth, new house, etc.
|
| Not something like putting up a Christmas tree and giving
| presents, maybe more like going to Christmas Eve and Easter
| sermons.
| Hamuko wrote:
| Giving my mom a pair of headphones doesn't feel that
| religious to me.
| nindalf wrote:
| Paying my respects to my ancestors doesn't feel religious
| to me - those folks, maybe.
| baby wrote:
| Don't you set up a tree and listen to Christmas music
| soperj wrote:
| Christmas tree has it's roots in Pagan traditions.
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yule
| vorpalhex wrote:
| That is still religious.
| bialpio wrote:
| Doing something that has religious roots doesn't
| automatically make it religious. The question is: what
| are you getting out of it? We're setting up a (now fake)
| tree during holidays, but treat it as tradition and a
| nice decoration for winter. Another example: Halloween.
| baby wrote:
| > Doing something that has religious roots doesn't
| automatically make it religious
|
| That's our point right
| Teever wrote:
| Christmas Trees are something coopted by Christianity and
| are pagan in origin.
|
| Also there's very little about baby Jesus in 'Here comes
| Santa Claus' or 'Frosty the Snowman'
| Hamuko wrote:
| I mean, I hear Christmas music if I go outside, but I
| don't actively do it. And I can't remember the last time
| we've had a Christmas tree.
|
| To me, Christmas is mostly about giving gifts, eating
| (especially chocolates) and watching TV.
| baby wrote:
| Oh noes :( you should get a christmas tree next time!
| lern_too_spel wrote:
| GP's point is that you don't have to be superstitious to
| perform religious rituals. Many Japanese people are
| superstitious though, just not in the pray to a deity
| form that we are used to in the West.
| yunohn wrote:
| Indeed, most religious-origin festivals are celebrated by
| atheists as well.
|
| As an atheist, I enjoy the culture and tradition associated
| with such events. Asian festivals have lots of lights and
| colors and rituals have dancing, singing, and art forms
| alongside. All of these come with tasty and nutritious
| food.
|
| In some ways, I feel we've lost this beautiful richness in
| our modern non-religious lifestyles.
| nemo44x wrote:
| > In some ways, I feel we've lost this beautiful richness
| in our modern non-religious lifestyles.
|
| Well, the celebrations are spiritually meaningless when
| actual, sincere theological views of the world are
| discarded for essentially material things. That the
| supernatural meaning of life has been replaced by
| "progress" in Western societies (we are continuously
| advancing towards better and better things) reflects this
| - we can build a paradise on Earth rather than have our
| spirits ascend to heaven when we are gone from Earth.
|
| So yeah, the celebrations are basically just another get
| together with a dead tree nearby and the exchange of
| material things we've been lured into buying "on-sale",
| etc. If anything, it's even worse because of all the
| obligations and because of the lack of shared belief of a
| super natural thing, there's nothing that really brings
| us closer to each other.
| xboxnolifes wrote:
| I feel sorry to those who need to believe in ghosts to
| socialize with other people.
| nemo44x wrote:
| I don't think that's what I was saying. It was a comment
| on how when a religious celebration is still celebrated
| but the religious part has been hollowed out, you can't
| really find true meaning it anymore. Today it's just a
| commercial event where we stand around a dead tree and
| exchange presents for some reason. We are acting out the
| celebration of Christmas but we aren't actually
| celebrating it. It's a completely inauthentic event and
| at best a pastiche of the actual thing.
|
| I think it's why I like Thanksgiving and the 4th of July
| more - it's essentially the same thing without the
| artificial Christmas obligations around it.
| the_af wrote:
| Christmas as "celebrated" by atheists is not a religious
| ritual. We gather (sometimes), eat, drink, and give
| presents to kids. Just like in birthdays (also not
| religious).
|
| Any party or celebration is in some sense a ritual, just
| not necessarily a religious ritual.
| coliveira wrote:
| Modern Christmas is essentially a non-religious
| celebration, unless if you go to church. It is mostly about
| family gathering and gift giving, so even atheists have no
| problem with that.
| notart666 wrote:
| Christmas itself has its roots in "pagan" tradition not
| Christian. More aptly Old Norse. During the conversion of
| Scandinavia is when this change occured. Though it appears
| in every cultural group similarly as the winter solstice
| which is not religious.
| blowski wrote:
| Pagan gods are still gods.
| wl wrote:
| The pagan origin of Christmas is a myth.
|
| Something that specifically deals with alleged Northern
| European origins:
| http://kiwihellenist.blogspot.com/2018/12/concerning-
| yule.ht...
| butterknife wrote:
| Would you not classify Saturnalia as pagan?
|
| I understand it's not related to the currently hip Nordic
| paganism.
| wl wrote:
| Christmas as rebranded Saturnalia is also a myth:
|
| https://talesoftimesforgotten.com/2019/12/08/just-how-
| pagan-...
| butterknife wrote:
| Counter opinion piece:
|
| https://www.academuseducation.co.uk/post/how-saturnalia-
| beca...
| wl wrote:
| That piece just uncritically reiterates the precise
| things the McDaniel piece I linked rebuts.
|
| Specifically:
|
| * The similarities in how western Christians celebrate
| Christmas and Saturnalia was celebrated aren't that
| numerous. In addition, the Christmas traditions that do
| have Saturnalia parallels seem to have arisen
| independently relatively recently, long after Saturnalia
| ceased to be celebrated.
|
| * The date of Saturnalia, while close to Christmas, never
| coincided with it.
|
| * December 25th as Christmas seems to have an origin
| independent of Saturnalia.
|
| * The celebration of _Dies Natalis Solis Invicti_ on
| December 25th seems to postdate Christmas.
|
| Additionally, the piece you linked does not deal with
| Alexander Hislop's work, which seems to be the origin of
| the alleged "pagan" origins of Christmas, Easter, etc.
| rthomas6 wrote:
| OP's point exactly. Christmas is a set of rituals.
| baryphonic wrote:
| Christmas celebrations far predate the conversion of
| Scandinavia. The early Christians in the Roman Empire
| were celebrating Christmas on December 25 since the
| second century or so. It was officially marked on the
| church calendar in the fourth century after Christianity
| became the state religion of Rome.
|
| There isn't much evidence that the solstice involves
| major celebrations predating Christmas. Whatever small
| celebrations did happen may have been appropriated by
| Christians, which makes sense given the persecution they
| faced.
|
| I'm all likelihood, the date December 25 (winter
| solstice) was chosen as being nine months after the
| celebration of the Annunciation on March 25 (spring
| equinox) where the Virgin Mary was told she would give
| birth to Christ.
|
| Throughout the history of Christianity, Christians have
| incorporated local traditions into our rituals and
| festivals, but placed into their proper framing and order
| (i.e. the one God is the source of all creation and is
| goodness). When Christianity came to Northern Europe, the
| church incorporated Yule festivities, placed into the
| proper order with Christ at the center and not the old
| Norse pantheon.
|
| The arguments about Christians _actually_ celebrating
| pagan holidays are from certain (usually) Calvinist
| reformers who had a revisionist interpretation of various
| Christian traditions, and felt they had debased Christ 's
| church. The Puritans in England, for example, banned
| Christmas after they took power in the English Civil War,
| which suppressed the holiday (at first legally, then
| culturally) until Charles Dickens essentially revived it
| in the 19th century. Today, atheists have simply
| appropriated the Calvinist arguments for themselves.
| wahnfrieden wrote:
| less strange, more that you are projecting when you say a
| country with behaviors that appear like unfamiliar paradoxes
| to yourself is itself a strange place, instead of it being
| yourself that is the stranger
| wahnfrieden wrote:
| An adjacent mental leap is to recognize how much power workers
| and the poor can have over corporate and politician behaviors
| (doesn't have to be violent assassination like this, that's
| besides the point - what was effective came from the resulting
| widespread awareness of the subject matter brought to
| attention). Hopefully LDP isn't able to whitewash it through
| mild reform.
| HereIGoAgain wrote:
| A just over 50% approval rating, in a vote largely based along
| political party lines, does not a vast majority of opposition
| make.
|
| What I find most interesting is that among younger generations,
| the approval goes past 65%. Though that might have something to
| do with younger people not having the luxury of ignoring
| potential future threats, with respect to defense, energy and
| such.
| MomoXenosaga wrote:
| Abe was always controversial for Japanese. Most people only
| know his foreign policy but he was socially ultra conservative-
| even by Japan standards.
| tjpnz wrote:
| I've lived here for close to a decade and was stunned by the
| reaction from the press. Even the NHK (which is a well known
| LDP mouthpiece) started covering the Unification Church angle
| early on. People like to bash the state of journalism here but
| I think this shows it to be worthy of more credit.
| Sin2x wrote:
| This speed implies they knew about the state of affairs a
| long time ago but couldn't speak then, so that's not much of
| a credit to the country.
| lostlogin wrote:
| Covering it after 60-70 years?
|
| At least they got there I suppose.
| mdtrooper wrote:
| In Spain, because fifty year ago we had a right-Catholic
| dictatorship (there is a article in spanish wikipedia about this:
| https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nacionalismo_cat%C3%B3lico ).
|
| Now, we have a lot of lawyers who are in christian/catholic
| dangerous/psychopaths sects such as Opus Dei
| (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opus_Dei), Kikos
| (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neocatechumenal_Way), Yunque
| (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/El_Yunque_(organization)) and
| other far right christian sects.
|
| It is a serious situation for the Human Rights in Spain.
| pfortuny wrote:
| Just in case, you should be careful with the use adjectives:
| they tend to deform your point of view.
|
| Saying that this is a serious situation for the Human Rights in
| Spain is a bit, just a tiny bit, of an hyperbole.
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