[HN Gopher] Toyota patents plans for EV with manual transmission...
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Toyota patents plans for EV with manual transmission and clutch
Author : aruanavekar
Score : 128 points
Date : 2022-09-05 13:10 UTC (9 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (insideevs.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (insideevs.com)
| [deleted]
| albertopv wrote:
| I don't want a fake clutch.
| GnarfGnarf wrote:
| As a clutch enthusiast, I would welcome this innovation if it
| actually improved EV motor performance. If its only purpose is to
| simulate the ICE experience, I'm not interested.
| culopatin wrote:
| The only thing the clutch is good for is to get the tires loose
| with a clutch kick or to detach the engine drag from the wheels
| if one so desired.
| spookthesunset wrote:
| Wouldn't a motor be able to chirp the tires all by itself?
|
| Dunno how much drag the motor would create if allowed to spin
| freely...
| culopatin wrote:
| You need a peak in torque on the wheels usually. Some can
| depending on how much power they make.
| projektfu wrote:
| Based on my experience with the Volt, which already needed
| traction control to keep the tires from spinning, it probably
| will offer slighlty different driving modes. Torquey, smooth,
| low-rev/low-heat highway mode.
| smileysteve wrote:
| There are multiple types of electronic traction control,
| active brakes and active power; in a high torque situation,
| active power manipulation is required. Electronic throttle
| has allowed better ramping of ice motors since the early
| 2000s. In high power sports cars it was bettered to be called
| launch control.
|
| There's little downside to active power control unless you
| want the effect of not having it.
|
| Side note to locking and viscous differentials (and for
| automatic transmissions, the "slushbox" torque converter),
| which have been providing passive traction control in cars
| for 70 years.
| givemeethekeys wrote:
| Maybe this will drive more ICE to electric conversions.
| nabilhat wrote:
| This is a neat example though of how arbitrary EV drivetrains
| are. A Toyota marketing exec's (just guessing) FUD about imagined
| consumer FUD turns into, why don't we just ramp down torque in
| notches in relation to road speed increments? Of course anyone
| who buys this is going to try it once then leave it in all-the-
| torque-all-the-time mode, but that's not the point. I can't say
| I've met a single three pedal afficionado who bemoaned the lack
| of shifting after experiencing the mild concussion inducing
| levels of acceleration of some of these new EV's. If roadgoing
| gas cars had that kind of torque, they wouldn't shift either,
| just like the fastest drag cars. There's no point.
| gpt5 wrote:
| The counter argument is that European vehicles are vastly using
| manual gear, despite the fact that except for a small minority,
| no one cares about the potential difference in torque.
|
| There is just a lot of people that are used the a certain
| solution and are resistant to change.
| spellboots wrote:
| There are economic and regulatory factors involved, it is
| more complex than people being resistant to change which no
| doubt makes up part of it.
|
| In the UK, for example, automatic cars are more expensive to
| buy and insure [1]. They also tend to be more expensive to
| learn how to drive as instructors mostly have manual cars to
| teach with.
|
| This incentivises new drivers towards manual cars, especially
| as younger drivers are more likely to be in lower-paying jobs
| and therefore more price conscious.
|
| There is also a separate license category for automatic cars.
| If you have this license you are not allowed to drive manual
| cars, whereas the manual license entitles the holder to drive
| both. Therefore most new drivers opt to learn manual for the
| flexibility and the cost reasons.
|
| 1: https://www.moneysupermarket.com/car-insurance/automatic-
| car...
| michaelt wrote:
| Somewhat surprisingly, in the UK Autotrader lists 230k
| manual cars and 195k automatics
|
| So the fraction of manual-transmission cars in the UK is
| much lower than I would have expected.
| yywwbbn wrote:
| I find it hard to imagine it would take significantly more
| than 15 minutes for most people to 'learn' how to drive an
| automatic car even if they only drove a manual before.
| robryk wrote:
| The UK authorities agree with you: if you pass the exam
| with a manual car you can use both, but if you pass it
| with an automatic one, you can only drive automatic ones.
| xxs wrote:
| It's the entirety of Europe - manual=both,
| automatic=automatic only.
| robryk wrote:
| Switzerland had that, but abandoned the distinction in
| 2019: now there are no transmission restrictions on Swiss
| licenses.
|
| Source: https://www.admin.ch/gov/de/start/dokumentation/m
| edienmittei..., grep for Automateneintrag
| falcolas wrote:
| Muscle memory is a bitch. Two things I've done going from
| a manual to an automatic, sometimes a year after:
|
| Slam on the brake as if you're using the clutch.
| Automatic brake pedals are more than wide enough to
| accommodate two feet, and attempting to upshift and
| slamming on the brake instead can really rattle your
| brain bucket.
|
| Throw the automatic into park. Less of an issue these
| days, but it used to attempt to actually go into park,
| with the shenanigans you'd imagine there would be as the
| parking pin attempted to engage with the forcefully
| spinning gears.
| LorenPechtel wrote:
| I've never pulled that one but I've done a couple of very
| hard stops coming off the freeway. Long drive, tired, I
| hear the engine RPMs dropping and my foot comes down on
| the "clutch" as my hand goes for the gearshift. I learned
| on a car with a very stiff clutch, I catch the brake
| pedal and it's going to the floor. (My father had a bad
| habit of riding the clutch while going through the gears.
| A mechanic friend deliberately put in a stiffer spring to
| minimize the damage.)
|
| Smoothly operating a manual has to be muscle memory and
| whenever you're dealing with muscle memory there's the
| issue of unintended capture. It doesn't take much to
| reprogram things like learning the actual working range
| of *this* clutch but skipping it entirely takes a lot
| more learning.
| drewg123 wrote:
| Moving from manual to power brakes is also a recipe for
| slamming on the brakes..
|
| In high school, I drove a really old car with manual
| everything (including brakes). Our drivers ed class was
| taught on 80s american sedans, with overboosted power
| steering and brakes where you could probably just touch
| them with a single toe to stop. Coming from the manual
| brakes in my car where I needed to stand on them to stop,
| I'd inadvertently slam on the brakes early in my turn at
| the wheel and throw everyone against the seatbelt
| tensioners..
| icoder wrote:
| I'm not saying it's hard (I had to, given the automatic
| rental when visiting the US), but it's not just about
| learning how to do it, it's also about reflexes, which
| you don't unlearn in 15 minutes. Sure you can learn to
| consciously suppress them, but the habit of finding a
| pedal with your left foot when accelerating/decelerating
| lures behind it for a lot longer.
| [deleted]
| qikInNdOutReply wrote:
| The actual reason for having gears even with EVs in european
| vehicles, is mostly the "one plattform" approach which
| carmakers here afraid to go all in on EVs. Hybrids,
| traditional combustion and EVs are expected to share as many
| parts as possible - which of course as all engineering
| compromises go means you become 2nd best in all areas.
| detaro wrote:
| Any examples of cars where that's the case?
| lokedhs wrote:
| The Kia Niro is available in three models: Petrol, Hybrid
| and EV. Now, I have the EV and it doesn't have any gears,
| but I'm pretty sure there is a lot of things shared
| between these cars.
| detaro wrote:
| For new cars that's not true anymore.
| aaronbrethorst wrote:
| _no one cares about the potential difference in torque_
|
| This stops being true the first time you depress the
| accelerator on an EV. My _Kia_ has a 0-60 time comparable to
| a low-end Porsche.
| SECProto wrote:
| Are you saying that like it's an obvious and irrefutable
| benefit? Having driven two EVs, I can safely say that 0-60
| times specifically, and acceleration in general, are
| totally irrelevant to me. As long as the vehicle has no
| issues accelerating on the on-ramp (so most cars from the
| last 30years), everything extra is useless.
| Hexcles wrote:
| You're over generalizing. Not all enthusiasts value the same
| point. For some including myself, it's not about acceleration
| or speed. Automatic (DCT and the new ZF8) has long surpassed
| manual transmission in almost all aspects of performance. It's
| similar to how some people like manual espresso machines, film
| cameras, etc. It's a hobby and you enjoy the process. See how
| the newest Koenigsegg goes great length to make this weird
| automatic manual.
| ehnto wrote:
| I am absolutely a manual gearbox fan for driving experience,
| and that's in Aus where it's not really idolized like it is in
| America. A lot more manuals here. But you are dead right. I
| think because it lacks all of the mechanical apparatus anyway,
| it's not like driving a regular car in automatic, it's like
| driving a different kind of vehicle. So you don't miss the
| gearbox.
|
| All that said, I do appreciate the tendency for Japanese car
| companies to take care with the act of doing in their cars. I
| know Porsche gets the trophy for wholistic driving experiences,
| but Japan is doing a great job of bringing some of that back
| from the 90s bubble era cars.
| russellbeattie wrote:
| It's not idolization it's identification. Americans have a
| tendency to identify with what they like. You don't just like
| surfing, you're a surfer. This leads to odd statements like,
| "I drive a manual, but I'm not a manual driver or anything."
| After my fellow American identifies with something, then its
| obvious superiority comes next. It's a complex. See our
| current political environment for extreme examples.
| manholio wrote:
| Electric engines are capable of insane torque, but prolonged
| operation in such a mode is far from efficient, cool and
| preferable from a reliability standpoint. Two seconds at the
| green light - yes, plowing your field with a Tesla - no.
|
| So I can see it making sense for vehicles that have have two
| modes of operation, for example a tractor or all-terain vehicle
| that also need to work on public roads at relatively high
| speeds. A manual gear box is ideal in such a setting, because
| you seldom need to use it and it's very simple, cost effective
| and reliable. In any case, only useful for an extreme niche of
| applications.
| [deleted]
| [deleted]
| robryk wrote:
| In snowy conditions you don't actually want all the torque
| available: then you'd want to control the torque applied
| instead of the power delivered when starting to move (similar
| to placing a restriction on the top torque by shifting into
| second gear on manual shift cars).
| jpollock wrote:
| I'm curious on the relative performance of traction control?
|
| Isn't the goal of traction control to limit the power to the
| wheel?
|
| Reading on how TCS works [1], it seems it applies the brake
| and may limit power from the engine?
|
| [1] https://www.scienceabc.com/innovation/what-is-a-traction-
| con...
| davewritescode wrote:
| Traction control has all sorts of tricks it can use to get
| you pointed in the right direction. Traction control
| systems can brake individual wheels to apply rotational
| torque to counter excessive yaw like when the back tires
| come loose and the back swings out, the car can induce
| rotation in the opposite direction to sort things out
| before they get too dangerous.
|
| The other common case is when taking off in a straight
| line, the car can limit power in excess of what the wheels
| are capable of putting down. This is usually accomplished
| with a combination of limiting power and in some cases
| braking individual wheels as they lose traction to simulate
| the effects of having a differential.
|
| Electric cars do better much in the latter case because of
| how quickly they can limit power compared to an engine.
| It's one of the reasons electric cars dominate 0-60 tests
| because they can adjust power hundreds of times a second
| whereas that's simply not possible with a gas engine.
| jpollock wrote:
| The argument was that the addition of a transmission
| would allow more control in snow. Is that only in
| situations where there isn't traction control, or where
| it is disabled?
|
| Would traction control be expected to outperform a human
| on snow? Is the higher weight of an EV going to make it
| handle poorly anyways?
| bearjaws wrote:
| At least in a Tesla it will automatically dial torque down
| when slip is detected. It accomplishes this via lowering
| amperage to the motor, it also can adjust wheel spin using
| individual wheel braking.
|
| All of this is already working fine with no transmission...
| Adding one to a consumer EV for snowy conditions is a step
| backwards in terms of more stuff to break and maintain.
|
| I believe this makes more sense for heavy equipment and
| freight trucks. You wouldn't want to have the gear ratio for
| heavy load all the time, as it would require the motor to
| spin at high RPMs (inefficient) to maintain highway speeds
| even when the amount of torque required is low.
| tyfon wrote:
| From driving quite a bit on ice tracks here in Norway,
| tesla is by far the best there is when it comes to safety
| on snow/ice.
|
| Not the most fun though unless you enable track mode or
| disconnect the traction control sensors.
| falcolas wrote:
| Agreed, and I'd go so far to say you don't want all the
| torque on anything but a clean racetrack. Rain, oil, gravel,
| animal carcasses... there's plenty of road conditions where a
| lead foot plus extreme torque will carry you violently off
| the road.
| snovv_crash wrote:
| Limiting torque is as simple as running the motor in
| current-control mode
| ReactiveJelly wrote:
| And it might be a good trade-off to pair a motor with a
| peaky torque curve with a 2-speed or 3-speed gearbox.
|
| But if your _only_ goal is to limit torque, you could
| simulate that by re-mapping the pedal.
|
| Say, by hitting "Eco" mode on a Prius.
| falcolas wrote:
| My comment is more about why torque should be limitable,
| not a critique on electric cars.
| teknopaul wrote:
| Most cars have traction control AFAIK. Instead of
| limiting max torque, they notice when it's spinning the
| wheels.
|
| Same in reverse for breaks and abs.
|
| On my car you can turn it off if you want some fun on
| dirt tracks.
| falcolas wrote:
| Once the wheels are spinning, its often too late. At
| least in my experience. Its best used to accelerate with
| minimal spin, and is mediocre - at best - at preventing
| traction loss in turns of any kind.
| kaitai wrote:
| That's why I stick with a manual transmission -- far better
| handling in snow. Have not asked my EV peers how it's working
| for them.
| analog31 wrote:
| Do you have snow tires? Living in a snowy region, I've
| learned that nothing makes as big a difference as snow
| tires -- whether the car has stick, automatic, AWD,
| whatever.
|
| Admittedly, it's hard for me to directly compare stick and
| automatic because the cars with automatic were also much
| heavier -- a minivan and a SUV.
| xxs wrote:
| North Europe, snow tires are mandatory. That's that - so
| effectively changing tires twice a year Apr/May and Nov
| poutine wrote:
| As a former driver of many Audi quattros and a Canadian who
| lives on top of a hill with a AWD Tesla 3 I can say it's
| the best handling car in snow that I've driven (given
| clearance limits of a sedan).
|
| The instant reaction speed of its electric traction control
| to slippage will vastly outperform any manual transmission.
| You can drive like an idiot with the pedal to the floor and
| the car sorts itself out.
| davewritescode wrote:
| The real problem with electric cars and modern cars in
| general in the snow is the sheer weight of the vehicles
| makes it harder to stop in an emergency.
|
| Most of the crummy AWD systems they throw in the majority
| of cars these days can get you unstuck or up a hill so
| that's not a major advantage.
|
| Also, car makers tend to throw on low friction tires on
| electric cars to increase range which invites another set
| of problems.
| LorenPechtel wrote:
| I haven't encountered snow since my last manual died but
| that's my understanding of electronic traction control--
| give the job to the computer that can do a far better job
| than any human.
|
| When the computer can outperform a human let the computer
| do it! Only give control of things where at least some
| drivers can outperform the computer. And, while not
| relevant to driving, if there's a grey area let the
| operator hit an override to use it. (Boeing--the plane
| does what you tell it even if you go outside the
| envelope. Airbus--the plane stays in the envelope no
| matter what you tell it to do. The first makes for broken
| birds, the second means the pilot in trouble can't decide
| to risk breaking the bird if that's what's needed. If you
| need 4g to clear terrain you do it even if the bird is
| only rated for 3g.)
| robryk wrote:
| If the human is doing the traction control job, they know
| how far from the edge of the envelope they are (because
| the difficulty changes). If it's a computer doing that,
| it's hard to communicate that to the human (iiuc we don't
| even try). Unless this is improved, this means that
| sometimes it's better to leave a human in control of both
| strategy and tactics even if the computer would
| outperform on tactics.
| olivermarks wrote:
| Interesting. I have fanatical Tesla fanboy friends in
| Denver Colorado who don't drive their teslas much in
| winter because they handle poorly in the snow on steep
| inclines and declines. The door lock issues and cold
| weather battery energy life and charging issues were
| their other problems
| poutine wrote:
| The RWD is a bit of a different beast than the AWD. It's
| much easier to get stuck on that one due to its weight
| when reversing up a hill.
| olivermarks wrote:
| ah that explains it, thanks!
| Someone1234 wrote:
| Seems very similar to paddle shifters in a gas CVT. There's no
| mechanical connection between the "clutch peddle" and "shifter"
| to the actual transmission, it is all just fed into a computer
| and a simulation is created to give the driver a warm fizzy
| feeling.
|
| If this makes people feel better during the transitional phase, I
| guess that counts for something, but this is a manual car
| simulation only.
| jonathanlydall wrote:
| I don't see the point for EVs, but I actually somewhat
| regularly use the "gear down" paddle on my Honda Jazz (AKA Fit
| in other countries) CVT, but not for a "warm fizzy feeling".
|
| It actually "locks" the gears to a particular ratio which
| allows me to use the engine to keep the car from exceeding a
| particular speed when coasting down a hill. When I start using
| the accelerator after, it very quickly switches itself back to
| automatic as soon as the "locked in" gear ratio is clearly non-
| optimal.
|
| I've never bothered using them for any other scenario though, I
| don't see the point as the CVT (at least on my car) very
| intuitively adjusts gear ratio based on how far I've pushed in
| the accelerator, it's such a pleasure to drive.
| LorenPechtel wrote:
| Yup, I've used a paddle shifter in a rental for this very
| purpose--using the engine as a brake while going downhill.
|
| My Corolla only has two possible downshifts and neither is
| all that good for holding speed on a downhill but the cruise
| control is integrated into the system--I can set a speed and
| the computer will do a pretty good job of using the engine to
| keep from exceeding it too much and since it's adaptive it
| will always avoid the car in front even if otherwise it
| doesn't hold the speed that perfectly. Since I found that out
| I've never touched the downshifts.
| consp wrote:
| My Current car does this when the the petrol engine kicks in
| (Hybrid with CVT), it does a tiny bit of "gear simulation" with
| the engine if you floor it and it uses the petrol engine
| together with the electric one and it adds a bit more of fake
| engine sound though the speakers to make it more obvious.
|
| Strange thing is they chose to only have "three gears", no
| matter at what speed you do it the max is two shifts.
|
| Not that it matters a lot, the shift in revs is not too much
| and if it gets petrol loving people into hybrid vehicles I'm OK
| with that.
| kQq9oHeAz6wLLS wrote:
| Nissan does this with their CVTs as well. Apparently they
| found that people didn't really like the "all one gear" feel,
| so they programmed in "gear changes" where the CVT changes
| ratio like an automatic. You still get the CVT advantage when
| going up a hill or stomping on the accelerator, though.
|
| They've been phasing out their CVTs in favor of traditional
| automatics, though.
| SoftTalker wrote:
| Automatics now routinely have 7 or more gears. That's
| essentially a CVT for all practical purposes.
| csunbird wrote:
| My automatic (non DCT) car has 8 gears and I usually
| don't even feel the shifts after 3rd gear at all.
| davewritescode wrote:
| They're phasing them out because they're total junk. The
| Jatco CVT is so unreliable it's been known to die at 30k
| miles and has cost Nissan a fortune in lawsuits and
| recalls.
| dieselgate wrote:
| This is awesome, not having a manual transmission is one of the
| biggest drawbacks of modern cars for myself and presumably many
| others Edit: I do have questions about efficiency because I was
| assume an EV manual may actually be less efficient than an
| automatic or single speed trans
| crawsome wrote:
| mhb wrote:
| No worse than Subaru's ICE CVT with fake shift points?
| analog31 wrote:
| I don't even notice the stepped shifting when I drive my
| Soobie. In fact I wondered why it worked that way, and assumed
| it had something to do with minimizing wear and tear on the
| shift mechanism.
|
| It's the closest thing to "get in and drive" of any car I've
| had. I especially love the adaptive cruise control.
| mhb wrote:
| Yes. I also think it works great including the lane change
| warnings. It is maddening that there is no way to prevent the
| radio from turning on every time the car does, though.
| iancmceachern wrote:
| I called this! It's in a HN comment I placed a few weeks ago.
| nottorp wrote:
| Funny that it's coming from the same Toyota that puts CVTs with
| no discrete gear steps in their gas cars and doesn't try to hide
| it...
| ohgodplsno wrote:
| It's also the same Toyota that did the Yaris GR, so they know a
| thing or two about manuals. They've always done what just
| works, for the target car.
|
| Hell, the CVT in the Yaris can actually feel good, it's
| relatively responsive and gives a linear push (when the
| electric engine is charged, going on pure ICE is hell). You
| just have to enjoy the BRRRRRRRRRAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
| AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
| AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
| dylan604 wrote:
| I had a 2015 model car without a CVT, but it was replaced with
| a next year model with a CVT after the non-CVT was totaled in a
| wreck. The 2 cars drove/felt completely different. It took some
| time to understand why (I'm not a grease monkey), but I'm not
| really sure I ever liked the CVT model.
| viraptor wrote:
| Why would you expect them to hide it? It works great. I think
| the CVVT text was included right under the model name on my
| Toyota too.
| ReactiveJelly wrote:
| I thought that some early CVT cars hid it by having the ECU
| fake small shifts
| DwnVoteHoneyPot wrote:
| Same company that puts in fake hood scoops too
| ramesh31 wrote:
| >Funny that it's coming from the same Toyota that puts CVTs
| with no discrete gear steps in their gas cars and doesn't try
| to hide it...
|
| CVT is, theoretically, infinitely superior to a traditional
| geared automatic transmission. They got a bad wrap at first
| (just like traditional automatics) when they were introduced,
| but the tech has matured and they are extremely reliable now.
| _fat_santa wrote:
| Toyota also makes the iMT transmission, which is possibly the
| most user friendly manual transmission ever made.
| rossmohax wrote:
| It is not the first time when product simulates imperfections of
| the past technology to make product more authentic in customers
| eyes.
|
| Film color,lenses defects, lots of "analog" audio effects and now
| cars.
| kitd wrote:
| It reminds me of the times I've had to make code "bug-
| compatible" with previous releases to fit in with how the
| outside world as adapted our systems.
| checkyoursudo wrote:
| I think it is kind of funny to come across video games that
| have crazy lens flare. I assume that is to give them cinematic
| feel rather than some nostalgic anachronism, but this reminds
| me of that too?
| WithinReason wrote:
| The movie frame rate of 24 fps...
| falcor84 wrote:
| On a sidenote, here's a controversial opinion - electrically-
| powered analog clocks are silly and we should discontinue
| making them.
| PointlessLogin wrote:
| ultrarunner wrote:
| AC clocks can sync their motors to the grid frequency, making
| it another perfectly valid mechanism of counting time. The
| grid frequency is very consistent.
| bob1029 wrote:
| The operators can even intentionally speed up or slow down
| the grid by small amounts to re-align the # of expected
| cycles over periods of time.
|
| Some prior discussion:
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24602162
| xxs wrote:
| >The grid frequency is very consistent.
|
| This is not true. It does change a bit under heavy load and
| the req. to keep it constant are far from perfect. There
| are timers that use the AC freq. but they are far from
| precise compared to a quartz crystal oscillator ones. A low
| effort [0] stackexchange search.
|
| [0]:
| https://electronics.stackexchange.com/questions/57878/how-
| pr...
| LorenPechtel wrote:
| I can read an analog clock at a greater range than I can read
| a digital of the same size. Usually not that big a deal for
| me but without my glasses the difference is substantial.
| aidenn0 wrote:
| As someone with zero sense of time, analog clocks let me use
| my spatial reasoning to reason about time. I am much more
| aware of how much time I'm spending on something with an
| analog clock
| falcor84 wrote:
| You piqued my curiousity here - do you mean you would think
| to yourself something along the lines of "I have until the
| minute hand goes 60 degrees further than it is now" as
| opposed to "I have 10 more minutes"?
| claudiawerner wrote:
| As someone who shares this perception, for me it's not
| nearly as analytical. I can physically see how much is
| left; I don't think in terms of the numbers. It's sort of
| like judging the distance between your workplace and the
| coffee shop down the street, in which if asked you'd make
| some heuristics to estimate how long it takes you to get
| there, but by default you just 'know' it is where it is,
| even if you don't think of the distance in meters.
|
| So it's more like "I have <image of clock> left" because
| I intuitively know what the clock will look like when the
| time is up.
| aidenn0 wrote:
| Pretty much what claudiawerner said in the sibling
| comment.
|
| When I used to drink coffee, I took sugar in it. Sugar in
| diners often came in a dispenser[1]. I could tell when I
| had the right amount of sugar poured in from one of these
| even though it might clump on a humid day and pour freely
| on a dry day. With an analog watch, I can do this for
| time, but with a digital I cannot.
|
| A digital watch requires much more conscious thought; if
| I log all my activities and make a spreadsheet &c. I can
| calculate a range of time it will take me for all my
| tasks, but with an analog watch I can just intuit it. To
| some personality types doing all of this seems to be
| enjoyable, but it's quite painful for me.
|
| 1: Like this: https://rapidswholesale.com/browne-
| halco-12-oz-sugar-pourer....
| black_knight wrote:
| I would think think this is rather common for people with
| a strong spatial intuition. When planning a task in steps
| I mentally see where the hands on the clock will be at
| the start of each task.
|
| I also have an image for the year in my head when long
| term planning. It is dynamic and I see it from "today"
| wherever that is, and I approach upcoming events. It is
| cyclic in years but there is a difference between looking
| back on January which was and looking forward to the next
| January.
| Denvercoder9 wrote:
| Analog clocks use much less power than digital clocks, by
| virtue of not having to continually emit light. That property
| may also be desirable for other reasons.
| xxs wrote:
| Pretty much - only LCD (no backlight/etc) can rival them.
|
| In my opinion wall clocks that run on a battery are a lot
| better than any digital clocks perception wise. They are
| also super cheap to make nowadays. Recently I had to fix
| one by disassembling it, clear the plastic gears/cogs, and
| silicone spraying them. Nifty little machines. My only
| regret would be not having solar battery as a frame. That
| would extend its battery life immensely, adding a tiny
| LiFEO4 would make run for decades.
| Kaibeezy wrote:
| Graphs and charts are silly. You have CSV.
| [deleted]
| ayemiller wrote:
| When the power goes out, what happens to an "electrically-
| powered analog clock?"
| falcor84 wrote:
| That's a good point. Assuming physical dials, it'll still
| show the correct time twice a day, which is twice more than
| an unpowered digital clock ;)
| Kaibeezy wrote:
| Continues to run for years on a 1.5V primary C cell.
| jancsika wrote:
| "View Source" on modern web browsers, Rust's "unsafe," human
| logins for HN's GPT-3 sandbox... it's like we're addicted to
| the past.
|
| Union protectionism and crony capitalism at its best if you ask
| me, YMMV.
| Kaibeezy wrote:
| The feeling of controlling a machine = "imperfections"
|
| What I would expect a machine to say. I, for one, do not
| welcome our new robot overlords.
| SilverBirch wrote:
| It's not about control. Transmissions in cars existed because
| internal combustion engines have a torque curve - the amount
| of torque you can get out of an engine varies with the engine
| speed, and so in order to maximize the torque at any given
| road speed you need to match the current road speed with the
| engine speed that produces peak torque. Now, there were
| different ways of doing this - manual transmissions vs semi-
| auto vs fully-auto and they did genuinely have pros and cons.
| For an ICE car there is genuinely a trade-off of how much
| control you have over the transmission.
|
| BUT that's entirely untrue of electric cars, electric motors
| produce maximum torque at 0 engine speed and eventually drop
| at high speed. So there's simply no reason to be using a
| transmission at all. There is no decision to be made about
| gearing, you either have enough torque or you don't.
| flyingfences wrote:
| It is about the feeling of control now. The reason people
| who still choose manuals do so isn't because of the torque
| curves -- automatics are now better at handling that --
| it's because they like the feeling.
| [deleted]
| Kaibeezy wrote:
| It's because I want to _choose_. Even your fancy
| Doppelkupplungsgetriebe (in auto mode) doesn 't know or
| care what I _want_ to do.
| bryanlarsen wrote:
| When you're used to a manual, an automatic feels mushy.
| An EV is directly coupled, so adding a manual
| transmission makes it more must, rather than less.
| LorenPechtel wrote:
| Disagree--I used to have that objection with automatics,
| but the modern ones are good enough I no longer feel that
| way. Never have I felt my Corolla made the wrong choice
| about gears.
| bryanlarsen wrote:
| It's the lag on the accelerator pedal that I think of
| when I think of mush.
| spookthesunset wrote:
| I mean an EV will have a different feeling. No need to
| attempt to simulate legacy stuff. Learn to work with the new
| stuff.
|
| The interesting thing is with an EV you can customize the
| crap out of how the thing feels. You can (theoretically)
| tweak all the rates used by the controls to make it feel any
| way you want.
| superchroma wrote:
| I can't decide whether this is dumber than Dodge making a huge
| deal about how their new EV Dodge Charger (car not car-charger,
| oh my god, what a branding screw up) makes authentic loud V8
| noises, but they're definitely both stupid. Can we just fast
| forward to the future where EVs glide around silently and people
| look both ways before crossing the road?
| chiefalchemist wrote:
| It's not all about pedestrians. Take Harley Davidson
| motorcycles for example. The sound is the brand. It's what
| people buy (into).
|
| Not saying that's right or wrong. Only that it's not strictly a
| pedestrian thing.
|
| Since in EVs it's more or less simulated, it would make since
| to have more than one setting and one of those to be off.
|
| p.s. The Dodge Charger has been ine of Dodge's most successful
| model. Gazillions of recognition has been invested in that
| model. They're not going to abandon that. In fact, the name
| makes more sense as an EV.
| lm28469 wrote:
| > It's not all about pedestrians.
|
| > and one of those to be off.
|
| It definitely is, Europe wouldn't pass a law mandating slow
| speed EV artificial noise if it was just a matter of branding
| chiefalchemist wrote:
| Because a know all government knows best? And has never
| overreached?
|
| That said, it doesn't mean a manufacturer can't use sound
| to their benefit, regardless of what regulations says.
|
| In fact, I believe in Norman's "The Design of Everyday
| Things" he sites an example (or two) where sound was part
| of the design of a product.
| mistersquid wrote:
| > Take Harley Davidson motorcycles for example. The sound is
| the brand.
|
| When a significant part of your brand is noise pollution,
| your brand needs updating. [0]
|
| [0] According to Autoweek, "Loud pipes save lives" is false
| https://www.autoweek.com/news/industry-
| news/a35952569/loud-p...
| cnasc wrote:
| > makes authentic loud V8 noises
|
| Doesn't it make an obnoxiously amplified EV high pitched whir?
| That was the impression I got from the unveiling
| lm28469 wrote:
| > Can we just fast forward to the future where EVs glide around
| silently and people look both ways before crossing the road?
|
| Getting rid of 50% of your car detecting senses doesn't seem
| like a good idea
| badcppdev wrote:
| Or imagine if you're blind. Trying to listen for tire noise.
| mumblemumble wrote:
| Or imagine if you're a kid and it's physically impossible
| for you to see around an SUV parked adjacently to the
| crosswalk without actually sticking your head out into the
| street.
|
| That said, the "cars make noise go vroom" argument hasn't
| really worked for decades now. Modern mufflers mean most
| unmodified cars aren't loud enough to be clearly heard over
| background noise in an area with lots of cars. Pedestrian
| safety is absolutely a problem that's worsening, but I
| don't think that "make cars noisier" is the solution.
|
| Barring the ideal (to me) solution of fewer cars in the
| first place, what seems most promising to me is making the
| infrastructure itself more pedestrian-friendly. I was
| impressed to see what Amsterdam's city center did with
| encouraging cars out onto the thoroughfares and out of the
| places where people are walking. They didn't seem to have
| the same "Waze addicts blowing through stop signs on
| residential streets" problem that we have in North America.
| Nor did they have the same problem with stroads and their
| obnoxious traffic patterns that set everyone who uses the
| on edge. It seemed to make transportation both safer _and
| more pleasant_ for everyone involved.
| aequitas wrote:
| > That said, the "cars make noise go vroom" argument
| hasn't really worked for decades now.
|
| Tires often make more noise than car engines nowadays. I
| live along a busy street and often I can't audibly
| distinct a Tesla from an ICE except for a faint hum. They
| are both as loud when passing by.
| bryanlarsen wrote:
| An EV going faster than 15mph is quite audible and one
| going slower than that can stop on a dime. If you can't
| hear anything it should be safe to cross.
|
| There's a significant gap between theory and reality, but
| I'm not sure noise pollution is the answer.
| guenthert wrote:
| Even with regular gas powered cars, the tyre noise
| dominates for a long time already, except at very low
| speed. A Tesla isn't much more quiet than any other modern
| sedan (thanks to wide tyres with soft rubbers). It's really
| just (wannabe) sports cars, old trucks and god damn Harleys
| where it's different.
| mistersquid wrote:
| > Or imagine if you're blind. Trying to listen for tire
| noise.
|
| When vehicles past a certain volume (which are not
| aggressively streamlined to shatter human-powered landspeed
| records) move faster than 25 kph (15 mph) they displace
| enough air that they are quite loud.
|
| An automobile-sized vehicle isn't some kind of terrestrial
| ninja when its engine doesn't make noise. Depending on
| make, model and speed, the volume of displaced air is
| significantly louder than the engine running at constant
| velocity.
| trasz wrote:
| Is this still a problem now that we have auto braking?
| kube-system wrote:
| Auto braking only mitigates crash impact in some scenarios,
| and prevents impacts in even fewer scenarios.
| trasz wrote:
| I wonder if we could have radio beacons for pedestrians,
| in addition to the current braking systems which use
| radio waves reflected from electronically passive
| pedestrians.
|
| It might not even require GPS or anything complicated;
| just respond to car's radar squawks, so that it can
| measure the distance and relative speed from the delay
| and Doppler shift. You'd need to use frequency that
| bounces around nicely, to "get around" other cars
| blocking the line of sight. We can't do that with passive
| pedestrians, because we can't tell the echo from
| pedestrian from the (also moving, like other cars)
| background. This could work more reliably and at much
| higher distances.
|
| Of course someone must have tested that already; I'd be
| grateful for a link :-)
| kube-system wrote:
| It's a neat idea, but adoption would likely be enough of
| a challenge to undermine the efficacy.
| falcolas wrote:
| A human walking has a much shorter stopping distance than
| any vehicle out there.
| ninkendo wrote:
| Yes.
| YorickPeterse wrote:
| This is only a problem when there are other loud vehicles
| around. If all vehicles are more quiet, you'll still be able
| to hear them, it just won't be as loud as it is today.
| kQq9oHeAz6wLLS wrote:
| > EV Dodge Charger (car not car-charger, oh my god, what a
| branding screw up)
|
| To be fair, the Charger name was created long before it meant
| "thing you use to plug into an electric device", and the
| Charger is a very popular vehicle in the Dodge lineup. And you
| don't abandon popular models without generating negative PR. So
| Dodge didn't really have a choice.
|
| Plus, they can use the pun in witty commercials.
| superchroma wrote:
| I know, they could have chosen the Dart or stuck with the
| Challenger. Or, wild idea, go for the Coronet, Plymouth Cuda,
| Roadrunner or GTX. I guess they're going to go with the joke,
| anyway.
| kQq9oHeAz6wLLS wrote:
| Going with the joke is kinda Dodge's schtick these days.
| Sets them apart.
| bluejekyll wrote:
| They killed the Charger brand in 1987, then reintroduced it
| in 2006.
|
| Fast cars are dangerous on our streets and responsible for a
| significant number of deaths on the road. It wouldn't be bad
| if they killed the brand for society.
|
| It's too bad that "car that gets you great mileage and helps
| protect kids in driveways and crosswalks" doesn't sell.
| bcrosby95 wrote:
| > It's too bad that "car that gets you great mileage and
| helps protect kids in driveways and crosswalks" doesn't
| sell.
|
| We lost that battle 20+ years ago, when SUVs and giant
| trucks became so popular.
| kQq9oHeAz6wLLS wrote:
| Every car - including Tesla - meets your definition of
| "fast car." The "most boring car in the world," the Toyota
| Camry, will blow the doors off supercars of 20 years ago,
| and is about as fast in a straight line than many so-called
| "fast" cars.
|
| It also gets great mileage and helps protect kids in
| driveways and crosswalks, and sells rather well.
| dylan604 wrote:
| The Dodge Charger has been around _a lot_ longer than EVs. It
| is has also recently been announced they are discontinuing the
| Charger as an ICE model.
| pwg wrote:
| > The Dodge Charger has been around a lot longer than EVs.
|
| Per Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dodge_Charger)
| the name has been around for 56 years (since 1966). Or 58
| years for the "show car" version of 1964.
| ForHackernews wrote:
| Technically EVs predate all petrol cars, let alone the Dodge
| Charger
| https://www.caranddriver.com/features/g15378765/worth-the-
| wa...
|
| > Electrobat! Is that not a great name? It belongs to the
| first commercially viable EV effort. Philadelphians Pedro
| Salom and Henry G. Morris adapted technology from battery-
| electric street cars and boats and got a patent in 1894. At
| first very heavy and slow (like a trolley car, with steel
| "tires" and 1600 pounds of batteries onboard), their
| Electrobat [at left] evolved to employ pneumatic tires and
| lighter materials so that, by 1896, their rear-steer
| carriages used two 1.1-kW motors to move 25 miles at a top
| speed of 20 mph. Electrobats and another electric by Riker
| won a series of five-mile sprint races against gasoline
| Duryea automobiles in 1896.
| garyfirestorm wrote:
| Just the V8 ICE is going away
| foepys wrote:
| I wish EVs were actually silent. In reality they are just as
| loud as a normal ICE vehicle above 20mph/30kph.
|
| The reason for this are the tires which have gotten so wide
| over the past decades that they are now the sole noise you hear
| from a normal car.
| garyfirestorm wrote:
| There's a regulatory requirement that specifies how much
| minimum noise should be emitted in each frequency band. All
| BEVs need this pedestrian alert system. It takes into account
| that partially deaf people may not be able to hear certain
| frequencies say tire noise band.
| jillesvangurp wrote:
| There are a few models of ice cars that basically are very
| quiet when they drive slowly. Nobody ever complains about
| how quiet they are. It's not a problem. And it was never a
| problem in the past. It's only a problem when EV's are
| concerned. Or rather it's a problem people imagine is real
| because other people who also did not do their homework say
| it is so based on what they've heard.
| dekhn wrote:
| Uh, no. I have a hybrid and the difference in noise between a
| gas engine and electric is highly noticeable at all speeds,
| in cabin or outside.
| kube-system wrote:
| Tires have gotten quieter over recent history, not louder, as
| a result of better tread design. You are noticing tire noise
| now because drivetrains have become quieter even more so.
|
| BEVs are not running tires that are any different sizes than
| similar positioned gas cars. The model 3 is running similar
| tire sizes to the German sports sedans of similar
| positioning. The leaf is running similar sizes to other
| hatchbacks. Etc.
|
| In general, cars are running larger tires in every dimension,
| but cars are also larger in every dimension.
| davemp wrote:
| You should hear the folks that gun it a couple streets over
| with their modded mufflers at 2am in my neighborhood.
| jackmott wrote:
| schuke wrote:
| If Charger is a name too mundane for the digital world, perhaps
| Super Charger would up the game a little bit ? Oh wait...
| Fiahil wrote:
| > makes authentic loud V8 noises
|
| I'm so glad this monstrosity is not cleared for European roads.
| sokoloff wrote:
| Above about 20 mph, EVs naturally make plenty of noise for
| people to realize they're there and moving. It's only at low
| speed that they're overly quiet for pedestrian awareness.
| DoughnutHole wrote:
| Getting hit at 18mph is still not a very good time. Sure it's
| better than being squished at 40mph, but that's still a lot
| of momentum in a couple tonnes of SUV.
|
| If the silence of the vehicles increases the likelihood of
| lower speed collisions then that's potentially a problem.
| CalChris wrote:
| The first time I ever saw an EV was in San Francisco, an EV1,
| somewhere around 2000. It literally was silent at slow speeds.
| My own first EV was a Leaf which has a noise maker which starts
| audible and decreases with speed and cuts out at about 20. I
| don't think my S does this. It should. This sound is a little
| annoying for the driver but is necessary for pedestrians,
| particularly blind people.
|
| BTW, this clutch idea is really really dumb.
| mannykannot wrote:
| The acquisition of a patent by a major corporation is not much
| evidence that it will ever be implemented; it amounts to a
| relatively cheap option on being able to do so.
|
| Personally, this one seems about as appealing as bringing back
| the manual ignition advance on gas-engined cars.
| dpatterbee wrote:
| > Can we just fast forward to the future where EVs glide around
| silently and people look both ways before crossing the road?
|
| The future looks bleaker with each passing day
| sokoloff wrote:
| My uncle has a country place, that no-one knows about
| He says it used to be a farm, before the Motor Law
| Sundays I elude the 'Eyes', and hop the Turbine Freight
| To far outside the Wire, where my white-haired uncle waits
| Jump to the ground As the Turbo slows to cross the
| borderline Run like the wind As excitement
| shivers up and down my spine Down in his barn My
| uncle preserved for me an old machine - For fifty-odd
| years To keep it as new has been his dearest dream
| I strip away the old debris, that hides a shining car A
| brilliant red Barchetta, from a better, vanished time
| Fire up the willing engine, responding with a roar!
| Tires spitting gravel, I commit my weekly crime...
| Wind in my hair - Shifting and drifting -
| Mechanical music Adrenalin surge - Well-
| weathered leather Hot metal and oil The scented
| country air Sunlight on chrome The blur of the
| landscape Every nerve aware ...
|
| _Red Barchetta_ - Rush - Moving Pictures - 1981
| [deleted]
| datavirtue wrote:
| In the future pedestrians are first class citizens, and the
| cars refuse to run over them.
| guenthert wrote:
| And I thought Toyota had a winner with the Prius. I really like
| mine (2nd generation, >100kmi, still going strong). I'm a big fan
| of their "power sharing device" (PSD -- otherwise known as
| planetary gears). Aside the economics and (fairly) eco-
| friendliness, it drives quite nice, very smooth. Under the right
| conditions (flat, smooth road), it feels like gliding. I ride
| motorcycles too and I learned to drive on a stick shift, but in a
| car, it's just silly. You want what from me? Selecting the proper
| gear? What next, adjusting oil pressure?
| nielsbot wrote:
| Setting the choke properly... if anyone remembers those.
| snshn wrote:
| People naturally seem to crave struggle. Probably part of the
| mating game, can't find any other easy explanation.
| gambiting wrote:
| That already exists - in China . They made a vehicle like this
| for driving lessons - so you can pass your test in a "manual"
| vehicle.
| netsharc wrote:
| I wonder if it simulates the juddery stall when you stop in
| gear...
| gambiting wrote:
| Yes it does apparently.
|
| https://www.google.com/amp/s/jalopnik.com/this-chinese-
| elect...
| [deleted]
| hbarka wrote:
| Hyundai, Kia, and Audi EVs have paddle shifters which controls
| the level of regeneration braking and feels very much like
| downshifting. One paddle (+) steps up the regen to the point
| where the "drag" gets progressively stronger. The other paddle
| (-) steps down regen to 0 where the car can coast and there is no
| regen drag whatsoever. Note this is not the same as Neutral. The
| car is always in Drive. The function only affects what happens
| when letting off the power pedal.
|
| The nice thing about the regen paddle mechanical control is the
| no-look ability at your fingertips to change the car's response
| depending on driving context. There are moments when you don't
| want the car to tip into a regeneration drag when letting off the
| power pedal and sometimes you feel the need for the "engine
| braking" to engage right away.
|
| All the other EVs just have strong regen (B setting) or low regen
| and the selection is a preset you have to choose either on the
| screen or somewhere near the shift cluster and isn't exactly a
| no-look control you can change on the fly. The older VW Golf EV
| used to have a stick where you can tap up and down two levels of
| regen on the fly and that was also a great experience but now
| buttons have replaced the stick. (Sigh, it was nice while you had
| it, VW!) The Chevy Bolt has one paddle but it's designed like a
| brake-with-your-hands lever when depressed. Not quite the effect
| of stepping up or down.
|
| In sum, the feeling of downshifting, such as into a turn, can be
| controlled. On the other hand, there is no need for "upshifting"
| if the EV had adequate power to get to a high speed. Tesla's
| power and torque band is already covering high and low speeds
| with one gear, although an additional top gear would probably get
| them to a really insane top speed. I think Toyota's goal is to
| eke out more range because they want to use less powerful motors
| where the power and torque bands would benefit from gearing. My
| dream is for Tesla to add mechanical paddle shifters and do what
| Hyundai does.
| Animats wrote:
| > Tesla's power and torque band is already covering high and
| low speeds with one gear, although an additional top gear would
| probably get them to a really insane top speed.
|
| Tesla tried that in their original Roadster. It had a two-speed
| transmission. The lurch when the transmission shifted during
| launch was too hard on the transmission, and many of them broke
| under warranty. Tesla had to replace many transmissions. It was
| easier to fix the problem on the electric side than the gear
| side.
|
| There's something to be said for a paddle shifter, but mostly
| for better control at low speed. For parking and off-road use,
| it can be helpful to map more pedal angle to a range of low
| speeds. This is more like the high/low range lever found on
| off-road vehicles and tractors than like a stick shift.
|
| Mode switches are undesirable because they lead to "wrong mode"
| accidents. This is an ongoing problem with aircraft automation.
|
| Behavior with zero accelerator and brake is an interesting
| question. Should the vehicle creep slowly forward? That's a
| classic feature, or bug, of automatic transmissions. Some
| automatic transmissions had anti-creep mechanisms to prevent
| this. If the vehicle comes to a full stop, should releasing the
| brake initiate creep? Should the vehicle roll back if on a
| hill? Some cars have "hill holders" to prevent that. For an
| electric car, those are all design decisions - the power train
| has no inherent behavior.
| LorenPechtel wrote:
| Yeah, I can definitely see merit to having a control that
| alters the responsiveness of the go pedal. I have near zero
| experience behind the wheel of an electric but back in the
| days of stick I appreciated having a low gear to creep around
| in and would actually have liked a lower gear occasionally.
| kayodelycaon wrote:
| Wrong mode accidents don't need to happen. My Prius has three
| modes for acceleration curves: Eco, Normal, and Power. If you
| push the pedal down all the way, you get full power in any
| mode.
|
| Note: power mode does not increase power, it just waits
| longer to turn off the ICE in order to improve throttle
| response
| Taniwha wrote:
| Leaf's switch in and out of the B regen by shifting into
| drive a 2nd time - however they also have an "eco mode"
| switch on the steering wheel - if you normally drive with it
| on then pressing it does feel a lot like a shift up
| Goz3rr wrote:
| > The lurch when the transmission shifted during launch was
| too hard on the transmission, and many of them broke under
| warranty. Tesla had to replace many transmissions. It was
| easier to fix the problem on the electric side than the gear
| side.
|
| Seems to me this was more a problem with Teslas build quality
| or design, because the Porsche Taycan and Audi e-tron GT have
| a two speed gearbox. From when I drove the e-tron GT this
| shifting was almost completely imperceptible, no lurching of
| any kind even when launching it in sport mode. If you're
| driving in anything other than sport mode the car will spend
| most of its time in second gear anyways, not even using it
| from a standstill.
| theluketaylor wrote:
| Only using first gear for hard launches helps, as does the
| fact they are using dog clutches in addition to traditional
| friction plates.
|
| The coolest part is the rear motor can be completely
| mechanically decoupled from the axel so it can just coast.
| Most other EV just shut of power to the motor, but Taycan
| can freewheel on the rear axle.
|
| Jalopnik did a huge in depth on the whole powertrain that
| is really interesting.
|
| https://jalopnik.com/an-extremely-detailed-look-at-the-
| porsc...
| timc3 wrote:
| I can feel it on my Taycan (it's one of the most powerful
| models) but it's not bad at all.
|
| Porsche has a lot of experience with gearboxes which
| probably explains why they can build a reliable one when
| dealing with the power and torque.
| olivermuty wrote:
| How is the maintenance aspect of this? One of things I
| like about my EV (Tesla) is that mechanical maintenance
| is essentially zero, whereas I had to pay 1000 eur every
| second year to service my Mercedes automatic
| transmission...
| jjtheblunt wrote:
| Is it coincidence that so many designs first seen in Audi seem
| to show up in Hyundia/Kia at a short delay?
| xanathar wrote:
| The Audi e-Tron debuted on 17 September 2018. The Kia e-Niro
| debuted on 18 September 2018. The Hyundai Kona was selling in
| the USA on November 2017.
|
| Are you referring to a different model? Because if we
| consider the e-Tron... it doesn't seem to be where this
| design was first seen.
| [deleted]
| dangrossman wrote:
| The first vehicle with a regen steering wheel paddle was the
| 2014 Cadillac ELR, followed by the Chevy Volt and Chevy Bolt
| in 2016.
| hbarka wrote:
| Their implementation of the paddle shifter was not the
| shiftable kind [1]. It was a lever you had to continually
| press to hold regen. Imagine your hand cramping up trying
| to keep it engaged. To this day GM has this odd
| implementation.
|
| [1] https://youtu.be/6NqfESCfSUM
| baybal2 wrote:
| lokedhs wrote:
| I have the Niro EV, and it was my first EV. The paddle shifters
| are amazing, and you get used to them very quickly. I recently
| rented another EV and I was surprised it wasn't there.
|
| Most of the time I can drive without even touching the brake
| pedal, since you can hold the left paddle and it will engage
| maximum engine braking, which it quite powerful. This helps
| with battery as well since there is less energy loss when
| braking.
| LorenPechtel wrote:
| I thought anything other than really hard braking didn't
| actually happen anyway, it was actually done with regen.
| kvark wrote:
| When would you actually need to not have the max regen braking?
| You can always just push the drive pedal slightly to let the
| car know you aren't slowing down, instead.
| hbarka wrote:
| Yes but constantly feathering like this causes foot fatigue.
| terrio wrote:
| I have an L button in my EV car and two settings are way
| enough.
|
| Fine-tuning this doesn't really add any value
| [deleted]
| micromacrofoot wrote:
| why would anyone ever pay for this? the simplicity of going from
| a ICE to an EV is a huge benefit
| Salgat wrote:
| For some context, the first Tesla Roadster also had a
| transmission, but Tesla quickly realized that it's far better to
| simply scale up the motor so that the torque curve is high enough
| at higher RPMs, electronically cap the torque at low RPM, and
| remove the transmission altogether. Considering transmissions are
| one of the most expensive and common major parts to repair in a
| vehicle, it is astounding that anyone would try to bring it back.
| ChuckNorris89 wrote:
| You're assuming in your argument that scaling up the motor is
| somehow free and that's why the cost of a transmission is
| stupid. Well it's not free, that's why transmissions exist.
| throwaway787544 wrote:
| I like the idea, but I'd rather an ICE conversion with a real
| drivetrain and transmission and an EV motor. I'll build it myself
| if no manufacturers will.
| topspin wrote:
| This is already widespread. You can buy a electric crate engine
| from Ford for about $4000. That is, when they are not sold out.
| rthomas6 wrote:
| I suppose I'm not the target market for this. To me this is just
| added complexity that increases cost and likelihood of something
| breaking. I'm still waiting for someone to make a "battery on
| wheels", an electric car with no extra bells and whistles. I
| think it could end up being so cheap to own, and also extremely
| reliable, since electric cars need no transmissions, and almost
| no maintenance of any kind for that matter. My Leaf needs tires,
| and... that's about it until 100k miles.
| ytdytvhxgydvhh wrote:
| > I'm still waiting for someone to make a "battery on wheels",
| an electric car with no extra bells and whistles.
|
| Didn't you already find it with the Leaf? Or is a base-model
| Leaf still full of lots of unnecessary farkle?
| rthomas6 wrote:
| Yes. But they stopped making it like that. The new Leaf base
| models are $28k minimum, have lane assist, auto braking, high
| beam assist, smartphone integration, 8" multi touch display,
| voice recognition, and more. I paid around $12k in 2017 for a
| used 2015 Leaf. You can't do that anymore.
| mint2 wrote:
| > auto braking, high beam assist
|
| Many of those bells and whistles you don't want are
| designed to protect other road users as much or more than
| yourself.
|
| Not wanting the bells and whistles that only effect the
| driver and not others is fine, but it's a bit selfish to
| discard the others.
|
| And yeah Some people will be like "I am responsible and
| don't need those" but 50% of those will be the ones that
| need them most and it's hard to tell who is who.
| rthomas6 wrote:
| What about the people who can't afford a car because of
| these features?
| mint2 wrote:
| What about the people who can't afford cars due to the
| expensive catalytic converters? Are those bad too?
| rthomas6 wrote:
| I understand your point, the features _are_ useful and
| they _do_ save lives. It 's just... where do you draw the
| line? You can't practically prioritize life infinitely
| above every other concern. If you did, the solution would
| be to not drive at all.
|
| Like, maybe we can defray the costs of safety in a
| different way, such that cars, which are unfortunately a
| need for a lot of Americans, aren't outpacing inflation
| so badly. Such as increase licensing restrictions and
| make drivers' tests more comprehensive. Or lowering speed
| limits and enforcing them more strictly. These solutions
| do not have the effect of adding $10k to the cost of
| cars, which harms poorer Americans much more than
| wealthier Americans.
| pjc50 wrote:
| > an electric car with no extra bells and whistles
|
| You can have this, but you have to import it from China, and
| the minimum level of bells and whistles required to legally
| operate it on the roads in the US is incredibly high.
| willis936 wrote:
| This comes up in every HN EV thread.
|
| Why not convert a mid 20th century car to EV?
| goethes_kind wrote:
| For one, safety issues. Conversions only make sense when you
| want to have some kind of exotic classic, and then make it
| even more exotic with your custom powertrain.
| LBJsPNS wrote:
| No air bags, seat belts, crumple zones, etc...
| willis936 wrote:
| Not exactly a battery on wheels. I don't see the middle
| ground between "no smarts" and "enough smarts to keep me
| safe". If you want a backup camera, blindspot radar,
| rollover protection, and A-pillar airbags then you could
| just buy a new EV. Is a touchscreen you don't need to touch
| an issue?
| rthomas6 wrote:
| Cars from the 2000s had all of this and were much cheaper
| than cars now.
| formerly_proven wrote:
| A skateboard-style BEV sees significant benefits in crash
| performance from the battery, that's not something you get
| with hybrid platforms ("ICE and also BEV on the same
| platform") or conversions. Crash performance in cars has in
| general massively benefited from the trifecta of more
| stringent requirements, better processes and more compute in
| the last two or so decades.
| [deleted]
| dragontamer wrote:
| I have to imagine that a smaller torqueband but more gears would
| make for a more efficient electric vehicle.
|
| The torque from 1000lbs of Li-ion cannot be denied, but are there
| other options here? Less torque, fewer batteries, less range but
| still the acceptable acceleration and cruising speeds?
|
| The high end Porches Tycan proved that two gears is a good
| design, even at the highest end of performance, for example.
| Lower performance vehicles probably have more opportunity to use
| gears?
| fred256 wrote:
| As an owner of both a manual transmission car and an EV, I enjoy
| driving them both, but I don't want the manual transmission
| experience with an EV power train.
| zcw100 wrote:
| I love driving manual transmission cars but I really don't like
| this. It's like cosplay for cars. The simulated experience makes
| it very uncool. I'd rather just let the manual transmission have
| one last dignified drive into the sunset.
| csw-001 wrote:
| If the artificial version is so life like you can't tell it's
| not a "real" transmission does it pass the "touring test"?
| hello639 wrote:
| Damn you. Here, take my upvote.
| itronitron wrote:
| why should manual transmissions be limited to only petroleum
| powered engine? Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
| Analemma_ wrote:
| Electric motors don't need manual (or indeed, any)
| transmissions because they have a basically-flat torque curve
| across their entire RPM range. The only options for an
| electric motor are fake transmission or no transmission, and
| the parent is arguing for the latter and against
| "transmission cosplay". A real manual transmission on an
| electric car would have no point.
| dkjaudyeqooe wrote:
| Torque isn't the only consideration, there's also
| efficiency and acceleration. Transmission aren't a
| necessity like they are in ICE cars, but they can improve
| the experience.
|
| For instance the Porsche Taycan:
|
| "Having a multispeed transmission in an EV provides the
| same benefits that it does in a gasoline-powered car:
| improved low-speed acceleration and increased efficiency at
| high velocity by lowering the rotating speed of the power
| source."
|
| https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a28903274/porsche-
| taycan-t...
| [deleted]
| SoftTalker wrote:
| Electric motors draw more current when starting up and when
| delivering high torque. It's conceivable that with a
| transmission, maximum current draw could be lowered,
| perhaps leading to longer-lived batteries or lower demand
| for battery cooling, smaller gauge wiring, smaller motors,
| or other cost savings. Don't know for sure on any of this,
| but it seems plausible. On the other hand, if it really
| made a difference, why aren't the EV makers already doing
| it?
| xanathar wrote:
| I remember reading somewhere that the estimated
| efficiency gain of having 2 gears on the Taycan is 5%. On
| a typical 60kWh battery car, that's 3kWh... hardly worth
| the effort nor the cost. On the Taycan it makes sense
| because top speed. For any "normal" EV where top speed is
| not a concern, it's probably not a choice that makes
| sense.
| davewritescode wrote:
| I suspect it makes a big difference in range at higher
| speeds that Germans and Americans drive at on the
| highway. One of the most disappointing things about the
| Model3 is how quickly the range starts to dip at left
| lane traffic speeds here in the Northeast. There's large
| stretches of the drive between NYC and Boston that have
| middle and left lane traffic moving at 80 MPH and what's
| an easy task for a gas car means adding a recharge stop
| for anything except the Model3 Long Range.
| kcexn wrote:
| Constant speeds on the highway should be the most
| efficient forms of driving. The only force the motors
| need to generate is the force required to overcome air
| resistance, this is going to be true of both ICE and
| electric.
|
| The range dip may instead be because of lower battery
| temperatures (from all of the wind). Better battery
| thermal management at high speeds might help.
|
| Higher energy density batteries will also comfortably
| overcome this problem. In the future I can see EV's that
| advertise fixed ranges, so that you don't get arbitrary
| range dips. They'll do this by over dimensioning the
| batteries and using better battery management software to
| make sure that more than 95-99% of your drives will be
| able to go at least the advertised range
| dangrossman wrote:
| A more complicated gearbox means more friction which
| lowers the fuel efficiency of the vehicle. Since the
| battery is the most expensive part of a BEV, maximizing
| fuel efficiency is always a priority. It determines the
| cost and the range for the car.
|
| EVs with multiple gear ratios do exist though, the first
| of which was the 2020 Porsche Taycan. The first gear lets
| it maximize torque at low speeds (up to 62 MPH) so it can
| set 0-60 records, then the second gear lets it maintain a
| more economical motor speed for highway driving.
| kevin_thibedeau wrote:
| Three cylinder engines have a flat torque curve. They still
| benefit from a transmission.
| hprotagonist wrote:
| (street triple checking in) _mostly_ flat.
| terrio wrote:
| They do have transmission. I checked it a year ago because
| I thought they don't.
|
| But it's fixed.
| salmo wrote:
| It all depends on the clutch to me. My ADHD is so satisfied by
| a manual. I'm engaged in the machine. It's fun and you don't
| need a real sports car.
|
| But paddle shifters do nothing for me. There's no feel to it.
| It's more like 3 on the tree.
|
| If the clutch gives it feel and control, I'm in.
|
| Sadly, finding a real manual is hard these days. Most cars
| don't offer them. My Honda is stuck in 1 package with a
| mid-2000s style dash. Still fun to drive.
|
| I should look and see if I could retrofit an Apple Car Play/
| Android Auto system in it...
| thatfrenchguy wrote:
| As a ADHD person, driving an EV is even more engaging, as you
| can precisely get the speed you want with your right foot.
| It's amazing.
| bl_valance wrote:
| I'm the target audience for this. I know it makes no sense, to
| make the car slower "shifting" through the gears, but for many of
| us it's the feel of full control over the car's mechanics. It's
| similar to the appeal of motorcycles, we ride them because every
| body input you make matters to the control of it. With all this
| said, there will still be a market for ICE manual cars for many
| years to come, it'll sure become more expensive to own one but I
| guess that'll be the price we'll have to pay. I also don't think
| the desire to continue driving manual will die off, anecdotally,
| I was talking to my 10-year old nephew and he seemed enamored
| with the idea of driving manual especially interested in early
| 2000s JDM cars, this was a really shock to me tbh I would of
| never thought this will be relevant with today's youth.
| psychomugs wrote:
| As a driver of a manual Miata older than I am, I was somewhat
| pleasantly surprised by this idea. I find this similar to the
| Fujifilm line of digital cameras with analog-style exposure dials
| and optical viewfinders; the affordances are objectively worse
| and largely unnecessary compared to the PASM mode selectors found
| in almost every other line of camera today, but they make all the
| difference between the feel of shooting a computer with a lens
| versus a proper dedicated camera.
|
| I'm glad someone is trying to save the manual transmission baby
| from the ICE bathwater.
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