[HN Gopher] Cannabis legalization decreases stock market value o...
___________________________________________________________________
Cannabis legalization decreases stock market value of major
pharmaceutical firms
Author : DocFeind
Score : 241 points
Date : 2022-09-02 16:03 UTC (6 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (news.unm.edu)
(TXT) w3m dump (news.unm.edu)
| swayvil wrote:
| Here in Illinois they charge huge $ for a license to grow.
|
| And they suppress opiates. And promote weed.
|
| And the dispensaries are all owned by the usual billionaires.
| That includes our governor.
|
| Weed legalization is a cash-channeling strategy.
| maxbond wrote:
| Capitalists will always hop on the bandwagon during the last
| mile, when the risk has been largely eliminated and the rewards
| are huge. This is their usual playbook; externalize costs and
| risk while reaping the rewards.
|
| But what made weed legalization happen is decades of activism,
| not business interests.
| pm90 wrote:
| This is simply how markets work.
|
| Currently the US has so much wealth disparity that billionaires
| will simply move from monopolizing one industry to another,
| whenever it becomes legal and lucrative. Ideally, we would have
| mechanisms that prevent this kind of consolidation to make the
| market work better.
| swayvil wrote:
| Yeah, but when you tweak the laws to favor certain
| investments that ain't quite "how markets work" anymore.
| jessaustin wrote:
| Thank goodness we had this whole covid thing to prop up these
| poor pharma companies, a subset of whose yearly profit of $35B
| dwarfs the _revenue_ of entire sectors of our economy. (Cable
| news: less than $6B revenue.)
|
| https://www.oxfam.org/en/press-releases/pfizer-biontech-and-...
| gruez wrote:
| >a subset of whose yearly profit of $35B dwarfs the revenue of
| entire sectors of our economy. (Cable news: less than $6B
| revenue.)
|
| Is that supposed to be a problem? You can argue that pharama
| companies are extracting too much profit for what they do, but
| they certainly deliver more value to society in my mind than
| cable news.
| suoduandao2 wrote:
| Cable news may be a bad example if we're talking about
| positive value delivered to society. But how much of the
| health benefits from modern sanitation are modern
| pharmaceuticals taking credit for? It seems an unreliable
| value proposition, particularly given how many new
| medications study-shop when comparing against existing ones.
| [deleted]
| jessaustin wrote:
| I'm more concerned with the practical effects of the number
| than with its moral weight. There is a whiff of corruption
| about USA's response to covid, among other health challenges.
| I refer not to covid's murky origin, although more
| investigation of that is probably warranted. I refer to the
| fact that although we spend more on healthcare than anyone
| else, our covid performance was the worst in the world,
| except for Peru, Brazil, and portions of Eastern Europe.
| There isn't only one reason for this, but "more spending for
| worse results" is a strong indicator of corruption.
|
| Why has e.g. Nigeria had fourteen covid deaths per million
| population while we have had 3100? Differences in reporting
| probably explain some of that. Some would blame the stingy
| level of primary care that our government provides to the
| poor. Others, including expensive private physicians who care
| for the rich, have noticed how common ivermectin use is in
| Nigeria. It is possible that ivermectin is of no use against
| covid (which is a virus not a living protostome), but we
| don't _know_ that.
|
| Not only has research been throttled, but mere discussion of
| such research has been throttled on most popular corporate
| media. What was so terrible about ivermectin, that not only
| could we not discuss it, but the little discussion that did
| occur inspired extreme and fairly dishonest official
| reactions like the many weeks of "You're not a horse!" media
| campaigns we endured? It's simple. Ivermectin is a cheap,
| widely-available drug with decades of safe human use. If it
| had been found to treat covid, there would have been less
| justification for novel mRNA vaccines with exceptionally
| curtailed safety tests (the details of which were to be kept
| under wraps for 75 years). That justification would have
| seemed even thinner after it became clear that the disease-
| preventing performance these "vaccines" required a
| redefinition of the word. If we had an open society that
| welcomed honest discussion of various possible covid
| treatments, vaccination could have been concentrated on the
| elderly and obese, and these firms might have seen e.g. $20B
| profits rather than $35B.
|
| Now forget about ivermectin (...vitamin D, etc.), and
| consider the similar treatment received by the Great
| Barrington Declaration and its signatories, who in retrospect
| were absolutely right in every respect. Did these experts'
| message ever show up on cable news? Hmm... why _did_ I
| mention their yearly revenue? Deluded "unicorn" fans might
| sniff at $35B (the important number, revenue, is about twice
| that; more competitive industries see larger such multipliers
| than _two_ ), but it is large enough to totally swamp the
| self-interest of other industries, such as cable news,
| politics, and others who influence opinions and governance.
| Have you ever watched CNN in USA for twenty minutes (yeah, I
| know) and _not_ seen multiple advertisements for
| pharmaceuticals? (A similar analysis obtains for the
| military-industrial complex.)
| confidantlake wrote:
| They gave me 60 vicodin when I got my wisdom teeth taken out. I
| took one and chucked the bottle after. I feel like I dodged a
| bullet there.
| kosyblysk666 wrote:
| iroh2727 wrote:
| We don't need silly statistics to show this. It's just common
| sense.
|
| I mean, if alcohol were banned, that would send pharmaceutical
| sales through the roof since we'd lose our most common medication
| for anxiety, depression, burnout, and general this-hustle-
| culture-is-fucking-people-up disorder (GTD is the technical
| term).
| encryptluks2 wrote:
| > I mean, if alcohol were banned, that would send
| pharmaceutical sales through the roof since we'd lose our most
| common medication for anxiety, depression, burnout, and general
| this-hustle-culture-is-fucking-people-up disorder (GTD is the
| technical term).
|
| I actually get the opposite impression.
| drspock11 wrote:
| Correlation is not causation. The fact that drug companies stocks
| declined may have something to do with cannabis legalization or
| nothing to do with cannabis legalization.
| [deleted]
| suoduandao2 wrote:
| Do you have an alternate theory to explain the correlation?
| dec0dedab0de wrote:
| Maybe people sold stock to buy weed legally?
|
| I was joking, but now I'm curious how many people selling one
| share would be enough to influence the price.
| aqme28 wrote:
| These researchers published their findings and your comment is
| just "that might not be true."
|
| Please, add some substance.
| drummer wrote:
| Cannabis oil will put big pharma out of business. It even cures
| cancer.
| tartoran wrote:
| You forgor the /sarcasm
| smm11 wrote:
| States where marijuana is legal have lower incidence of opioid
| use.
| spookthesunset wrote:
| Not sure that is entirely true. A hell of a lot of cities on
| the west coast have absolutely massive opioid addiction
| problems. Street Fentanyl is doing a number on people.
|
| I really don't understand fentanyl addiction either. Ain't that
| the shit they give you when you have surgery and stuff? All I
| know is that stuff knocks me the hell out when I had it for
| some wisdom tooth operation.
|
| Plus the difference between an appropriate dose and an serious
| overdose is razor thin (from my understanding).
| [deleted]
| lotsofpulp wrote:
| I wonder what the data is on changes in alcohol sales and/or
| alcohol revenue at bars/restaurants.
| notch656a wrote:
| I think a lot more people would switch to weed if:
|
| 1) You couldn't get a DUI at T+1-2 days after smoking. Many
| states including my own, merely need to show marijuana
| metabolites in your blood to convict for DUI.
|
| 2) Gun rights. You're staring down the barrel of 5+ years in
| jail of the feds find you in possession of weed with a
| firearm, even if pot is legal in your state.
|
| Until those two things are fixed, anyone who depends on
| driving to keep their job or a firearm to protect their
| family should have some serious reservations about trading
| the bar for the dispensary.
| scarface74 wrote:
| It's even worse cops can arrest you if they think you are
| impaired. There are specially trained "drug whisperers".
| She was sober, no drugs in her system. But she was still
| arrested.
|
| Before you look at the article, take a wild guess what
| color she was...
|
| https://www.11alive.com/article/news/investigations/the-
| drug...
| WastingMyTime89 wrote:
| 1 is a serious problem. 2 is self inflicted. As no one
| depends on a firearm to protect their family, the solution
| is simple. Just don't own a firearm.
| scarface74 wrote:
| I'm far away from a gun nut. I don't see the need to
| carry and I am more worried about getting shot by the
| police because I both "fit the description" and "don't
| look like I belong" in my own neighborhood than I am a
| criminal shooting me. But I very much believe in gun
| ownership in the home - especially properly secured.
|
| If someone breaks into my home, they prima facie mean me
| harm. They will get shot without a second thought or
| ounce of remorse. What am I suppose to do? Wait on the
| police to show up?
| WastingMyTime89 wrote:
| Yes, that's exactly what you should do.
|
| Breaking in followed by violence are mostly an imaginary
| problem anyway. You are far more likely to mistakenly
| shoot someone who incorrectly thought was breaking in
| than ever having to defend yourself.
| scarface74 wrote:
| So I'm suppose to ask someone who broke in my house "do
| you mean me harm"? There are only two other people who
| should come in my house unannounced and as soon as they
| come in the alarm will sound and they know how to turn it
| off. One of those people sleep next to me.
|
| If you're breaking in, I'm assuming violence.
|
| The odds of burglary is 1/36
|
| https://policyadvice.net/insurance/insights/burglary-
| statist...
| WastingMyTime89 wrote:
| scarface74 wrote:
| What exactly should I do when an armed invader come into
| my house while I'm there? Are the police going to get
| there in time? Is the person just going to say "my bad"
| and peacefully leave? Are we going to sit down and have a
| beer together?
| loudmax wrote:
| I wouldn't paint with such a broad brush. I'm in favor
| regulating access to firearms just as we regulate access
| to driving, but it depends a lot on your circumstances. A
| lot of people who buy a gun to protect their family are
| probably protecting their own egos more than anything
| else. But there are circumstances where responsible
| ownership of a firearm for self defense is perfectly
| reasonable.
|
| Of course, none of this has anything to do with cannabis.
| It makes no sense say possession of firearms and alcohol
| is okay, but firearms and cannabis isn't.
| WastingMyTime89 wrote:
| > But there are circumstances where responsible ownership
| of a firearm for self defense is perfectly reasonable.
|
| No. That's where we deeply disagree and that's why I
| never actually feel safe when I have to visit the USA.
| notch656a wrote:
| You're not a US resident but you know that no person in
| the US has depended on a firearm to protect their family?
| oaththrowaway wrote:
| What a terribly privileged thing to say
| notch656a wrote:
| This person is not a US resident and is spitballing based
| on whatever view they got from visiting, which apparently
| they very much dislike.
| nichch wrote:
| I wonder how open and shut those DUI cases really are. In
| Michigan, they've recently discovered their THC test would
| return positive with the presence of CBD.
|
| https://www.mlive.com/public-interest/2022/08/michigan-
| polic...
| throwaway0a5e wrote:
| 1 is only an issue because moral panic gave legislators a
| blank check to write DUI laws that are so immensely broad
| they would be opposed in any other context.
|
| 2 is only an issue because drugs were a moral panic and
| people hated weed enough to not argue much when it got tied
| to their gun rights
|
| Everyone loses when we cater to lemmings going off half
| cocked about the moral panic of the minute.
| oaththrowaway wrote:
| This is the dilemma for everyone I know who is interested
| in switching to cannabis.
| galangalalgol wrote:
| I know several who switched from social alcohol usage to
| hallucinogenic mushrooms instead and reported positive
| health outcomes. The legality issue is probably worse not
| better. But my understanding is that the testing
| situation is less of a concern.
| sianemo wrote:
| You're correct about the testing not being a concern.
| Testing for psilocybin is very expensive and unreliable.
| Really only one major drug testing lab in the country
| will even try to test for psilocybin, and that's because
| you can, for the right price, try to get them to test for
| just about anything in a mass spec sample. I won't go so
| far as to say that nobody can ever successfully test you
| for psilocybin, but it's about as close to never as you
| can get.
| giantg2 wrote:
| And if you have any record of use, even a medical marijuana
| card, you are prohibited from purchasing a firearm.
| rascul wrote:
| That varies by state
| giantg2 wrote:
| Incorrect, the prohibition is federal.
|
| https://www.atf.gov/firearms/docs/open-letter/all-ffls-
| sept2...
| rascul wrote:
| Yes, it's prohibited at the federal level, but the state
| laws on that vary, and the states are generally the ones
| doing the enforcement. An example, in Mississippi (http:/
| /billstatus.ls.state.ms.us/documents/2022/pdf/SB/2001-...
| ):
|
| > A registered qualifying patient or registered
| designated caregiver shall not be denied the right to
| own, purchase or possess a firearm, firearm accessory or
| ammunition based solely on his or her status as a
| registered qualifying patient or registered designated
| caregiver. No state or local agency, municipal or county
| governing authority shall restrict, revoke, suspend or
| otherwise infringe upon the right of a person to own,
| purchase or possess a firearm, firearm accessory or
| ammunition or any related firearms license or
| certification based solely on his or her status as a
| registered qualifying patient or registered designated
| caregiver.
|
| Edit: By enforcement, I mean that it's not going to be
| the FBI or the ATF that knocks on your door if it's
| discovered you have purchased a firearm with a medical
| marijuana card but the state, county, or municipal
| police. The feds might go after the store, though.
| giantg2 wrote:
| No, the ATF will absolutely go after the individual if
| you lied on the federal form.
| rascul wrote:
| The ATF isn't investigating every form to determine if
| you lied. Nor are the forms always used for firearm
| purchases.
| giantg2 wrote:
| They don't investigate every form. But there's still a
| chance. Especially since they're copying books wholesale
| these days.
| spookthesunset wrote:
| You just lie when filling that form out. Nobody will do
| anything because if it got turned into a case that made
| it to the Supreme Court, it would most likely be the end
| of a large bit of that background check. A lot of that
| stuff has very questionable constitutionality.
|
| And before the downvotes or flames... let's be completely
| honest here. Anybody in a recreational state who owns a
| gun and filled out that forum lied. I mean technically
| you aren't supposed to smoke pot in federal land like a
| national park or forest yet it happens all the time and
| nobody cares. Not all laws get enforced.
| scarface74 wrote:
| Yes because your case has any likelihood of making it to
| the Supreme Court where you have an overzealous
| prosecutor and an overworked public defender.
| spookthesunset wrote:
| The odds of lying about marijuana use on that form coming
| back to haunt me is effectively 0%. I'm not loosing any
| sleep over it!
| scarface74 wrote:
| Let's say you got pulled over for "fitting the
| description" or because you "looked suspicious" and let's
| say that it's one of the cops "specially trained to
| detect being under the influence" [1]. Let's also say
| that you are legally allowed to carry.
|
| Do you really think there is a non zero chance that cops
| won't use any excuse to make an arrest seem legit?
|
| https://www.11alive.com/article/news/investigations/the-
| drug...
|
| I choose not to trust that the justice system will ever
| veer in my favor.
| giantg2 wrote:
| The justice system isn't about justice, it's about
| control, power, and winning.
| giantg2 wrote:
| Unless you have a _documented_ use, like a card. Then the
| risk goes way up because it 's easy for them to search.
| scarface74 wrote:
| I think you give the government too much credit still. In
| Florida for instance, ex-convicts registered to vote at
| the county office and were told they could based on a new
| law. The county clerks gave them bad information and they
| were still arrested.
| giantg2 wrote:
| I'm not sure what you're talking about...
| scarface74 wrote:
| It doesn't matter how much "documentation" you have, if
| the criminal justice system wants to target you it will.
| quercusa wrote:
| ATF 4473 21.e:
|
| _Are you an unlawful user of, or addicted to, marijuana
| or any depressant, stimulant, narcotic drug, or any other
| controlled substance?_
|
| _Warning: The use or possession of marijuana remains
| unlawful under Federal law regardless of whether it has
| been legalized or decriminalized for medicinal or
| recreational purposes in the state where you reside._
| rpvnwnkl wrote:
| Are you sure this is true? I was under the impression you
| can buy firearms legally without background checks at all
| in much of the USA
| floren wrote:
| If you buy person-to-person, yes, in most states.
| However, just because a felon (or a marijuana user, both
| are prohibited from owning guns) _can_ buy a gun like
| that, doesn 't mean they won't get in trouble for it if
| they ever get caught.
|
| Edit: form 4473 question 11e asks if you are an unlawful
| user of drugs such as marijuana and reminds you that it
| is still federally illegal. You will fill out this form
| if you purchase a gun from a licensed dealer. Lying on
| this form is itself a felony.
| giantg2 wrote:
| "I was under the impression you can buy firearms legally
| without background checks at all in much of the USA"
|
| I'm not sure if this is legitimate or if you're trolling.
| The regulations on background checks can vary depending
| on the state. Even in states where private sales are
| legal, you would still be prohibited.
|
| Granted enforcing that prohibition comes down to people
| following the laws, and there's nothing physically
| forcing them to do so (whether requiring a background
| check or not), merely punishment after the fact.
| lotsofpulp wrote:
| Interesting, thanks for the additional information. I
| assume it will take 60 votes in the US Senate to get moving
| on #2, so alcohol businesses have no reason to worry.
| notch656a wrote:
| IANAL, but I think DEA can remove cannabis from
| scheduling without congress.
| giobox wrote:
| While those are of course valid concerns, I don't think it
| even enters into the decision making process for most when
| considering booze vs weed in a state with legal
| dispensaries. The likelihood of either of these happening
| in states like CA or WA is just so incredibly low that I
| don't think either of them is stopping all that many who
| might consider it today. I think there are far stronger
| cultural forces at play in terms of why people drink or
| smoke weed rather than concerns about the above.
|
| You also still can't buy and consume weed in a bar/cafe
| style setting as you can booze either anywhere in the US
| AFAIK, which will also play a large part in this. Drinking
| alcohol can be a social activity in a bar, and of course
| booze can be bought in supermarkets etc etc.
| beebmam wrote:
| Correlation is not causation. There are many, many reasons why
| opioids are used.
| giantg2 wrote:
| On top of that, this is speculative correlation - they're
| studying that that stock dropped 1-2% after a legalization
| event because traders are speculating that there will be
| lower returns.
| spaetzleesser wrote:
| You never find clear causation for social issues. Legalizing
| marijuana seems a no brainer to me. Less people in prison and
| hopefully less opioid use.
| filoleg wrote:
| Is it actually the case for major coastal cities/states?
|
| I accept that this might be true, but living in Seattle it
| surely doesn't feel like it (as long as you count fentanyl as
| an opioid, because it is one).
| [deleted]
| notch656a wrote:
| Cannabis products are a pharmaceutical. You're putting drugs in
| your body, just a different one.
| cantSpellSober wrote:
| Exactly, a _different_ one. This article is more about stock
| prices, linked to a study that concludes cannabis is as a new
| competitor in drug markets.
|
| https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal...
| staticassertion wrote:
| `Of or relating to pharmacy or pharmacists.`
|
| You probably aren't getting marijuana from a pharmacy and no
| pharmaceutical company has a patent on marijuana, which I think
| both technically and colloquially puts it well outside of the
| realm of pharmaceuticals.
| spaetzleesser wrote:
| By that definition everything you eat is a pharmaceutical.
| Everything you eat has some effect on you.
| Z_Z wrote:
| it's true though, everything you can consume has an effect on
| you not unlike pharmaceuticals. we just classify them
| differently. and as a corollary, anyone that can make money
| off of that effect, will
| huetius wrote:
| This is obscurantism. If there's no difference between
| marijuana and food, what's with all the excitement and
| advocacy?
|
| OP's point seems to be pretty reasonable to me. If marijuana
| is outcompeting established anodynes it implies they are in
| the same category.
| joemazerino wrote:
| Its easier to get opioids than it is to buy weed in some States.
| I wonder why?
| bobthepanda wrote:
| Weed is a plant that can rot. This makes its transport more
| finicky, and more bulky.
|
| Pills are much easier to transport, particularly fentanyl with
| its small dosing amount. And one of the most dangerous things
| is meth, since recently it's now being developed from shelf-
| stable chemicals.
| https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2021/11/the-new...
| barbazoo wrote:
| THC/CBD containing edibles, oils and capsules come to mind.
| tingol wrote:
| That's silly. Weed is exactly that, a WEED, it grows freaking
| everywhere why the need for transport?
| ceejayoz wrote:
| Salad grows pretty much everywhere, but we still transport
| most of it from Mexico or California, with a pretty hefty
| set of infrastructure components from farms to hordes of
| pickers to refridgerated trains to grocery stores.
|
| (It's also not a weed, really, just like it's not a pot.)
| bobthepanda wrote:
| There are definitely economies of scale when it comes to
| farming and weed is no exception. That, and taking
| advantage of cheaper labor costs elsewhere (like Mexico)
|
| That, and it may be easier to grow in a laxer jurisdiction
| and transport it to a stricter one, than just trying to
| grow it in a strict one.
| ceejayoz wrote:
| Because they're legal?
| oblak wrote:
| Wasn't that joemazerino's point?
| base698 wrote:
| Because pharma is 70% of the ad spend on Television news and
| one of the top lobbying industries?
| spookthesunset wrote:
| Sure but it isn't the generics doing any ad spend. Unless
| there is some hip new opioid I'm not aware of (street
| fentanyl?) all the opioids are generic at this point. "Bob &
| Dave's Pill Company" sure as heck isn't pimping their generic
| hydrocodone on TV nor are they taking doctors out to golf.
| ceejayoz wrote:
| Don't worry, they know how to fight that scenario. Drug
| companies have gotten _really_ good at fighting
| /delaying/squashing generics.
|
| https://www.npr.org/sections/health-
| shots/2013/04/17/1776023...
|
| > In 2010, Purdue Pharma LP replaced the original OxyContin
| with an abuse-resistant form, in an effort to reduce deaths
| and overdoses caused by the powerful pain medication, which
| was licensed in 1995.
|
| > The new version of OxyContin includes an ingredient, a
| polymer, that makes it harder to crush and snort or inject
| to get a quick, heroin-like high. When the new version was
| introduced, Purdue pulled the original OxyContin off the
| market. The patent on the new version runs until 2025.
|
| > On Tuesday, the FDA said that it won't approve generic
| versions of the original formulation of OxyContin, a long-
| acting narcotic pain medication, which went off patent that
| day.
| 2OEH8eoCRo0 wrote:
| Then why do the few weed stonks that I have only go down?
| JackMorgan wrote:
| A serious answer: many people overvalued weed stocks when they
| were new, and reality did not match up. The stocks were priced
| far higher than they should have been had they been priced only
| on raw business fundamentals.
|
| Lots of people bought weed stocks because they love weed, which
| doesn't mean that particular company will be able to turn a
| profit high enough to match the stock price they paid.
| ehnto wrote:
| Probably because it's still a really volatile environment for
| the companies operating in it, both through regulation and in
| practice, getting cooperation from banks and payment providers
| still sucks.
|
| It also has it's own little venture capital boom and bust cycle
| going on. It should really be a straight forward business
| proposition, but there's a lot of people trying to innovate on
| the idea with the help of VC cash.
| purim wrote:
| I don't think the impact is as great as they say. Pharma firms
| collude to create very strong lobby and special interest groups
| that keeps people elected. Cannabis legalization created a lot
| more fragmented cannabilizing groups.
|
| Just take a look at Canadian legal market. The grey market always
| outperforms it and many have begun shunning the expensive legal
| weed.
|
| Lot's of weird actors in this space, especially these
| psychedellic therapy groups who are self-licensed and have
| history of misconduct.
|
| I find these one off studies to be highly sensational and
| idealizing a very tough market to break into. The impact of
| marijuana is still not known 100%.
|
| There is reason why some countries like Singapore have been extra
| careful to adopt these western libertarian ideas. While probably
| an overreaction, the impact of marijuana needs to be observed
| over a very long period of time and this is where pharmaceuticals
| shine.
| nimih wrote:
| > I don't think the impact is as great as they say.
|
| Can you expand on this? I'm not particularly familiar with the
| style of financial analysis they're doing in the study, but the
| authors claim the methods and variables they are using are
| standard and well-understood, and their numerical results seem
| to support the study's conclusion pretty well, at least to this
| layperson's eyes. I'd be interested to know what I'm missing in
| terms of the study's weaknesses, either in terms of statistical
| methods, or other limitations not discussed by the authors.
| qazwse_ wrote:
| _Just take a look at Canadian legal market. The grey market
| always outperforms it and many have begun shunning the
| expensive legal weed._
|
| This is not true, the opposite is happening. Illegal market
| share continues to decline, with 63% of people reporting buying
| from legal outfits in 2021, versus 43% in 2019.
|
| https://www.ccsa.ca/sites/default/files/2022-06/CCSA-Cannabi...
| purim wrote:
| LordDragonfang wrote:
| And this is precisely what you'd expect, right? Initially,
| almost every regular smoker already has a cheaper grey/black
| market hookup, because that was the only way to get it, and
| gradually that withers away.
| RappingBoomer wrote:
| that gets me right here (slaps chest with fist)
| bern4444 wrote:
| What I always fail to understand about these situations is why an
| incumbent firm wouldn't latch on to this to beat out their
| competitors.
|
| You can see this in energy companies' hesitation to accept and
| invest in renewable energy. Until the last few years they all
| stayed far far away from it.
|
| Perhaps this is all the result of their existing vested interests
| - but I'm constantly surprised just how little these massive
| incumbents resist new ideas that really can instead give them a
| competitive advantage against their peers.
| juanani wrote:
| andsoitis wrote:
| Just wait to see the impact of psychedelics on pharma...
| meroes wrote:
| Yay. Recreational marijauna user here and opioids scare the crap
| out of me. Had to take 10 oxycodone after a surgery and if they
| can hand those out they can hand out marijauna capsules or
| whatever. It's really that simple.
| Zagill wrote:
| It's still crazy to me that I was just given hydros when I got
| my wisdom teeth out at 18. I didn't even need them, I was
| barely sore.
| mod wrote:
| I was about 21, they prescribed 24 pills I think?
|
| I used one, and really just a preemptive use before I went to
| work (I only took a half day off).
|
| The weird thing is, though, I felt very normal at work. I had
| never tried a drug, so I wasn't sure what to look for, but I
| just felt normal. No pain, no other effects.
|
| I have some from a dentist thing last year, too, and I would
| say similar now, but with a mild high.
|
| I was never tempted to take extra. I threw them away before I
| moved countries.
| Zagill wrote:
| Yeah that was basically my experience. I took a few of them
| but nothing noticeable happened so I just didn't bother
| taking more. Funny enough that was also true when I tried a
| couple ADHD meds. Didn't feel a difference, not even
| withdrawal symptoms from going cold turkey after a few
| months.
|
| Maybe I'm just weird...
| mod wrote:
| Same--tried adderall twice, couldn't tell the difference.
|
| I'm not high-caffeine intake or anything either. Nothing
| that should mask it.
| munificent wrote:
| _> I just felt normal. No pain, no other effects._
|
| Reminds me of this excellent comment from Reddit about what
| heroin is like:
|
| ---
|
| Actually this is an obvious question but it's not what you
| might think. Let me explain it to you, I've been an opiate
| addict for a long time and tried many drugs. Drugs that are
| 'uppers' have the most 'obvious' euphoria. For example if
| you take adderall/coke/meth/speed/MDMA you will get this
| shining bright euphoria, self confidence, energy, and other
| drug-specific feelings (for meth like you are king or for
| MDMA like you love everyone). However, you owe these drugs
| back what they delivered to you. After a meth binge, or
| lots of MDMA use, or staying up all night on coke you will
| feel like shit. To an extent this aspect is similar to an
| alcoholic hangover.
|
| On the other hand, for many people who experiment with
| heroin they are underwhelmed (not including IV usage, but
| most experimenters rarely ever IV first time). They just
| feel good, chill, happy, but they feel like this spooky
| drug 'heroin' hasn't delivered. They are just mellow. Oh
| obviously it has all been a lie they will think. Heroin
| isn't spooky, it's chill. It's not addictive like everyone
| else thinks. It doesn't make you do stupid shit or stay up
| all day and hallucinate like amphetamines or coke. It
| doesn't empty your serotonin like MDMA or give you a
| hangover like alcohol. People tend to just think oh, what a
| nice drug.
|
| So the next day they wake up and everything is normal. No
| headache or shitty feeling--just a slight afterglow of that
| nice feeling. Oh it was cheap as well! It only cost $10 for
| a whole night of being high! I thought people said heroin
| was expensive? And then next weekend comes... There are all
| these drugs I could do but I liked heroin. It didn't 'fuck
| me up,' I could still think clearly. No hangover. No
| feeling like shit later. I still was awake. It just made me
| happy and content with life. Oh and it's only $10! Well, I
| should get some more for the whole weekend. This is great!
| I will use Heroin on the weekends now!
|
| Now let's say this person works and has responsibilities.
| He knows he can't go into work drunk, or on MDMA, or high.
| So he doesn't. It's actually simple. But heroin... Well the
| user might actually find they do better work on heroin.
| Instead of being sad or grumpy or depressed with his job...
| he is just... happy. Mellow. Content. Everything is fine
| and the world is beautiful. It's raining, it's dark, I woke
| up at 5:30AM, I'm commuting in traffic. I would have had a
| headache, I would have been miserable, I would have
| wondered how my life took me to this point. This point I'm
| at right now. But no, no, everything is fine. Life is
| beautiful. The rain drops are just falling and in each one
| I see the reflection of every persons life around me.
| Humanity is beautiful. In this still frame shot of traffic
| on this crowded bus I just found love and peace. Heroin is
| a wonder drug. Heroin is better than everything else.
| Heroin makes me who I wish I was. Heroin makes life worth
| living. Heroin is better than everything else. Heroin
| builds up a tolerance fast. Heroin starts to cost more
| money. I need heroin to feel normal. I don't love anymore.
| Now I'm sick. I can't afford the heroin that I need. How
| did $10 used to get me high? Now I need $100. That guy that
| let me try a few lines the first time doesn't actually
| deal. Oh I need to find a real dealer? This guy is a felon
| and carries a gun--he can sell me the drug that lets me
| find love in the world. No this isn't working, I need to
| quit.
|
| ---
|
| https://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/wnj2d/iama_heroin_ad
| d...
| noptd wrote:
| Honestly that reads like a creative writing exercise
| given the amount of inaccuracies in that rose-colored
| description.
|
| I'd recommend anyone reading take that with a large grain
| of salt.
| heavyset_go wrote:
| Found it incredibly accurate myself.
| MontyCarloHall wrote:
| So if you are miserable, opiates will make you feel
| content. Not euphoric, but merely content, normal. But if
| you already feel content, opiates will not make you feel
| much different.
|
| That's sad if true. Opiate users are not chasing a high,
| they're merely chasing a normal.
| nvrspyx wrote:
| That's what research is starting to suggest for at least
| some opiate addicts.
|
| Opiates have a very strong anti-depressant effect, that
| also tends to make the depression worse after coming
| down. Well, really it's the activation of "opioid"
| receptors (becoming a bit of misnomer) that have a very
| strong anti-depressant effect, which is the same
| mechanism that the anti-depressant effects of ketamine
| derive from despite not being an opioid (anti-depressant
| effect is almost entirely negated if taken with naloxone,
| aka NARCAN, to inhibit the opioid receptors).
|
| This worsening of depression symptoms after coming down
| from opiates causes a vicious, psychological feedback
| loop in addition to the physical dependency. This also
| may be why ketamine has higher risk of addiction than
| other psychedelics like psilocybin.
| heavyset_go wrote:
| Dissociatives seem to be in their own class when it comes
| to addiction, and I wouldn't compare them with your
| classic psychedelics that work at 5HT2A on that metric. A
| lot of people get addicted to dissociatives like DXM
| where you don't that kind of dependence and abuse with
| most 5HT2A agonists.
|
| Many dissociatives also inhibit dopamine and
| norepinephrine transport, or induce their release, which
| can have rewarding and addictive results on their own.
| nvrspyx wrote:
| I agree, it wasn't a great comparison. I didn't want to
| get too into the weeds on specifics since I figured the
| average person would lump them all under "psychedelics"
| or "hallucinogens". I just wanted to point out that the
| activation of opioid systems may be a contributor in its
| more addictive nature, but it's certainly not the only
| factor in its addictive potential. Especially so since
| those dissociatives that activate dopamine or opioid
| systems tends to be more addictive than their more
| selective counterparts.
| freedomben wrote:
| I'm really glad for you, but I don't know how I would have
| survived my wisdom teeth removal without them. Even with the
| pills the pain was still excruciating. I lost a lot of weight
| from inability to eat or even drink.
|
| In my opinion, giving somebody pills who doesn't need them
| (what used to be the norm) isn't great but the vast majority
| of people don't suddenly become junkies. Most people are
| perfectly fine. You yourself is evidence of this.
|
| But not giving somebody pills who does need them (which is
| now the norm) is literal torture, and the practice disgusts
| me. I'm really glad you were fine, but not everybody is so
| lucky, and the number of people who say as you do but also
| have the power to enforce their views on everyone else have
| literally been responsible for torturing others. The only
| thing worse than sitting in pain and misery is knowing that
| the means to relieve some of that pain is readily available,
| but some person decided you shouldn't have them so you get to
| suffer.
| munk-a wrote:
| The problem with talking about "giving somebody pills" is
| that it's extremely imprecise. A coworker of mine was once
| given a two week script for oxy after they injured their
| arm, they had two days of serious pain and then just mild
| soreness - this was an insane over prescription and my
| friend knew it.
|
| They used cannabis to manage their pain for two days and
| never filled the script. I think a script for two or even
| three days would have been perfectly reasonable with a
| "Call me back if the pain is too much after that period".
| dwringer wrote:
| I think one problem is people have vastly different
| thresholds of pain. Somebody else having the same injury
| might be calling their doctor back begging for a refill
| because they can barely function. Of course determining
| how much of that is a medical need versus how much is
| "the pills talking" is never going to be easy.
| munk-a wrote:
| That's one of the beautiful things about Cannabis
| legalization - it provides a non-addictive pain
| management solution where the pills will talk much less.
| freedomben wrote:
| I fully agree with you on Cannabis, but I don't think
| that's an argument for restricting opioid pills. I think
| we can and should make Cannabis widely available, and
| should absolutely encourage people to give it a try
| first, but if it doesn't work for them I think they
| should have the option of trying the pills.
| nobody9999 wrote:
| >fully agree with you on Cannabis, but I don't think
| that's an argument for restricting opioid pills. I think
| we can and should make Cannabis widely available, and
| should absolutely encourage people to give it a try
| first, but if it doesn't work for them I think they
| should have the option of trying the pills.
|
| I'd go further and say that all "drugs" should be easily
| available and the tiny percentage of folks who develop
| dependency issues should be provided treatment and
| support.
|
| Not only would this reduce suffering and provide a wider
| range of pain management strategies, it would also
| significantly reduce the societal costs of substance
| prohibitions in terms of reduced economic impact in the
| following (not a complete list) ways:
|
| 1. Interdiction/enforcement is hugely expensive, and
| providing treatment to those who require it would cost a
| fraction of that;
|
| 2. Criminalization of substance use stigmatizes those who
| are caught in that particular net and, at least in the
| US, limits their ability (because many folks won't hire
| you if you have a criminal conviction) to increase
| economic activity/output;
|
| 3. Because of (2), many communities as well as the
| economy as a whole are negatively impacted both
| economically and socially;
|
| For some reason, when it comes to "substance" use issues,
| we tend to examine the possible alternatives to address
| them, then choose the least effective, most harmful one.
|
| I hope that changes, but I doubt I'll live to see it.
|
| Edit: Clarified that the impacts I mention are not _all_
| of the impacts that drug prohibition has on society.
| freedomben wrote:
| I don't understand what the problem is with the
| imprecision in your story. Did your coworker abuse the
| extra pills? Did he become an addict? If not, then why is
| it so bad for him to have gotten more in case he needed
| them? Don't you think needing them and _not_ having them
| is worse than the situation your friend was in where he
| needed to throw them away?
| munk-a wrote:
| He was a trained pharmacologist who knew that being on a
| constant dosage for that long can be habit forming so he
| didn't take them - a decent portion of people are handed
| a bottle of pain meds "Here's a two week supply" and
| assume they're supposed to take them at the prescribed
| rate continuously. It takes an active personal decision
| to decide not to take the meds prescribed for you and
| that you've already paid for.
| Zagill wrote:
| I certainly wasn't advocating that no one should get
| opioids because I have a high pain tolerance, rather that
| we maybe shouldn't be prescribing them by default for
| everything.
|
| In the same vein, I think a lot of research ought to be
| done into non-addictive painkillers. Then the risk would
| basically be zero and everybody's happy (except for pharma
| companies that make bank off of opioid addicts, of course)
| freedomben wrote:
| > _I certainly wasn 't advocating that no one should get
| opioids because I have a high pain tolerance, rather that
| we maybe shouldn't be prescribing them by default for
| everything._
|
| Many, many people assume that if the doctor doesn't offer
| pain medicine, then it's because they don't need it. Once
| you've left the office and the pain gets bad and you
| realize you should have asked for them, it's too late.
| But also, a ton of doctors won't prescribe them anymore
| ever because of the extreme risk of losing their career
| to the DEA if they make a bad call in favor of
| prescribing. There's virtually zero risk for under
| prescribing, so human nature for self-preservation makes
| this decision a no-brainer for the doctor.
|
| > _In the same vein, I think a lot of research ought to
| be done into non-addictive painkillers. Then the risk
| would basically be zero and everybody 's happy (except
| for pharma companies that make bank off of opioid
| addicts, of course)_
|
| I agree completely
| dieselgate wrote:
| For real, I was surprised to get Vicodin at 14 when I had
| mono. Only took it once and assume my parents just chucked it
| ethbr0 wrote:
| That's changed a lot. I had hydrocodone prescribed after mine
| (~15 years ago?).
|
| On the other hand, my son just had his out and got 800mg
| ibuprofen and 625mg tylenol alternating. Seemed to do okay as
| long as he kept on the schedule.
| Zagill wrote:
| This happened about 4 years ago, people were definitely
| aware of the opioid problem at that time
| delecti wrote:
| It never feels good using them either, I always stick to half
| doses and even that leaves me feeling uncomfortably out of it.
| BoxOfRain wrote:
| I'm a medical cannabis patient in the UK (medical cannabis was
| quietly legalised in 2018, there's only 10-20k private patients
| and virtually none on the NHS so even a fair few police
| officers don't know it's a thing yet!) and opiates scare me
| too. Anecdotal I know but I was given a box of codeine after
| having my appendix out recently and didn't even need a quarter
| of them so I could definitely see cannabis displacing the less
| powerful opiates to some extent in the future.
|
| I guess it depends on the type of pain but I find cannabis more
| effective than codeine for the neurological pain I'm prescribed
| it for anyway.
| wanderr wrote:
| They gave me opiods after an invasive surgery that had me on
| crutches for a month. That stuff was strong enough that I could
| not safely crutch to the bathroom, I was too dizzy. Switched to
| low dose edibles and had no problem falling asleep, they didn't
| make it impossible to get to the bathroom safely, and I didn't
| have to worry about addiction.
| davidw wrote:
| I got sent home with opioids after a collapsed lung surgery
| many years ago. I was in a lot of pain, so I took one, felt
| _great_ for a half an hour and then things started to spin
| and I felt nauseous for like 4 hours where I just stared at
| the ceiling. Even a sneeze hurt like hell where I 'd been
| stitched up - I really did not want to barf.
|
| After that, I took over the counter painkillers and just kind
| of dealt with the pain, as it was better than feeling all
| wobbly and dizzy.
| throwayyy479087 wrote:
| I have kidney stones from time to time. NSAIDs + "deal with
| it" are an underappreciated pain approach - it's ok to be
| in pain. It's not OK to be in so much pain you're going to
| blind and writhing, but those are totally different things.
| mikeyouse wrote:
| Unfortunately, there are a ton of incentives from
| insurance companies and Medicare for patients to be pain-
| free. Part of your hospital and surgeon's reimbursement
| is determined by their patient satisfaction score, and
| uncomfortable patients provide low scores so docs
| overprescribe and steer clear of uncomfortable topics
| like behavioral changes, etc;
|
| https://www.cms.gov/Research-Statistics-Data-and-
| Systems/Res...
| eurasiantiger wrote:
| Really, the problem is prescriptions that say "take 2
| pills every four hours" instead of "take max 2 pills
| every four hours as needed for pain"
| egl2021 wrote:
| It can get worse than a bad satisfaction score. Look up
| "Saint Francis Health System shooting".
| jnovek wrote:
| I had to take oxycodone + NSAIDs every 6 hours when I had
| my stone, but I had complications that required a stent
| and I did not react well to it. In fact, on both
| medications I was _still_ in so much pain that it was
| barely manageable.
|
| I can imagine a stone being less painful, I don't think
| my experience represents the mean. It definitely makes me
| a bit shy of being anti-opioid, though. As miserable as
| they are, it would've been absolute torture without.
| 2OEH8eoCRo0 wrote:
| The last time I was prescribed an opioid I never had it filled.
| yamtaddle wrote:
| I've had pain killers prescribed maybe a half-dozen times and
| the only one for which pot wouldn't have been _at least_ as
| good was the time I had fairly serious abdominal surgery--and
| even in that case, I 'm not 100% sure weed wouldn't have done
| the job. Plus, they usually prescribe me way more than I want
| or need--I may take one or two pills, and they prescribe me six
| or eight or ten--which inflates sales for these companies while
| doing no actual good.
|
| For most of those cases (plus some times when I don't/can't get
| a prescription but still feel really bad--which makes weed a
| super-hero because I don't have to do the "will I still feel
| bad enough in 24 hours that it's worth losing 3 miserable hours
| to driving and waiting rooms and lines, trying to get a
| prescription?" gamble, I just already have some on hand or can
| go out and get it in like 30 minutes, guaranteed) I really just
| need something that can let me sleep at night. Weed does that
| just fine unless the pain or discomfort is _really_ extreme.
| meroes wrote:
| I didn't mean to make the point weed should be substituted
| for opioids. But all of weed's symptoms are a proper subset
| of all of opioid's. Less powerful but less addicting and
| harmful to simplify.
|
| And that alone means we should be able to prescribe weed
| where appropriate.
| tastyfreeze wrote:
| After minor abdominal surgery I found that the prescribed
| opiates made the pain go away to where I felt like I could do
| everything I normally did. So, instead of resting like I
| should have I would try to do things and be in serious pain
| when the opiates wore off. Cannabis, on the other hand, I
| could still feel the pain but I could put it in the back of
| my mind. This allowed me to be aware that I needed to rest
| and heal and not be completely focused on the pain. I stopped
| taking the opiates after the first day.
| colechristensen wrote:
| Are opioids really making that much money?
|
| Most of what is prescribed are generics and they're not
| expensive.
| bsedlm wrote:
| that's just how cheap they're to make (once you have the
| factory setup; which isn't cheap)
| encoderer wrote:
| Don't worry they are literally prescribing billions of them.
| It adds up to enough money for everybody (at the top).
| colechristensen wrote:
| But 30 generic percoset, for example, looks to cost about
| $14 locally where one struggles to pay less than that at
| lunch outside McDonalds. Doesn't really seem like a cash
| cow.
| staticassertion wrote:
| Is that before or after insurance? Some quick googling
| and all I can find is anywhere from 100s of millions to
| 10s of billions.
| encoderer wrote:
| At scale it probably costs pennies to make a Percocet. If
| the drug maker gets $7 for a prescription that costs them
| $0.50 to manufacture, and they do that 150 million times
| in America in a year, that's a billion dollars in gross
| margin.
| projektfu wrote:
| They're available from the distributor at around 10C/
| each. So $3 goes to the manufacturer and distributor and
| $4 goes to the pharmacy.
|
| Incidentally, the huge difference between street price
| and wholesale price is the reason why diversion is a
| problem. If the drugs were sold at $10/pill but with
| instant rebates to the recipients of $9.90 then they'd
| probably be kept very strictly controlled, even without
| the DEA involved...
| swatcoder wrote:
| Pretty sure Netflix and Spotify do alright with less than
| that.
|
| And it's not even accounting for those premium tier
| subscriptions that come with trendy new formulations not
| yet acknowledged as dangerous.
| lotsofpulp wrote:
| You are saying that selling something for $14 per month
| with no information about cost of goods sold or sales
| volume is sufficient to conclude one is doing "alright"?
|
| FYI, Spotify has only ever lost money:
|
| https://www.macrotrends.net/stocks/charts/SPOT/spotify-
| techn...
| swatcoder wrote:
| That was precisely the point I was making to the
| commenter I replied to (unit price doesn't determine
| business scale on its own), but interesting info on
| Spotify regardless.
| sleepymoose wrote:
| This also fails to account for those that demand a
| specific brand of pill, and will gladly pay more for it.
| You'd be suprised how large the difference is to an
| addict when comparing a yellow pill to a white one.
| ceejayoz wrote:
| https://www.npr.org/2022/03/03/1084163626/purdue-sacklers-
| ox...
|
| > Court filings show the [Sackler] family took in $10 billion
| in profits from OxyContin...
|
| https://www.nytimes.com/2020/05/27/health/opioids-
| pharmacy-c...
|
| > From 2006 through 2014, the Rite Aid in Painesville, Ohio,
| a town with a population of 19,524, sold over 4.2 million
| doses of oxycodone and hydrocodone. The national retailer
| offered bonuses to stores with the highest productivity.
|
| https://www.pbs.org/newshour/economy/judge-says-
| pharmacies-o...
|
| > Roughly 80 million prescription painkillers were dispensed
| in Trumbull County alone between 2012 and 2016 -- equivalent
| to 400 for every resident. In Lake County, some 61 million
| pills were distributed during that period.
|
| It's clearly quite profitable.
| jnovek wrote:
| They're not completely useless, but I agree that we
| overprescribe them.
|
| I had a kidney stone with complications that required three
| procedures to take care of. The only thing that would touch
| that pain was opioids.
|
| It was a miserable experience and, thanks to the opioids, I
| essentially have a four-month hole in my memory. They made me
| nauseous, dizzy and cognitively useless. I had to titrate off
| of them because I had developed some degree of dependence.
|
| Still, in that situation I would take them again, the pain was
| unreal.
| nobody9999 wrote:
| >The only thing that would touch that pain was opioids.
|
| I had a similar experience, albeit (and thankfully so) much
| more short term. I had spine surgery (lumbar laminotomy[0])
| to address spinal stenosis[1] that significantly weakened my
| right leg and was prescribed oxycodone after the surgery.
|
| I had prepared for this by acquiring significant amounts of
| cannabis (concentrate, butter and flower) to address the
| pain, but for four or five days, cannabis was insufficient to
| address the pain.
|
| After the first two days I reduced the dosage and frequency
| of taking the oxycodone as I was concerned about dependency.
|
| I will say that the first two days (full doses at four hour
| intervals) made me understand why some folks end up dependent
| on opioids.
|
| My takeaway was that short-term use for acute (vs. chronic)
| pain, opioids are _very_ effective.
|
| For lesser pain levels, cannabis is also useful, with the
| caveat that cannabis doesn't actually get rid of the pain,
| you just don't care.
|
| Your experience (and mine as well as that of many others)
| make it quite clear that (at least in the US -- elsewhere
| too, but legal regimes are different elsewhere and I'm not
| necessarily familiar with those) cannabis should be removed
| from schedule I (and potentially moved to schedule IV or
| removed completely) of the Controlled Substances Act[2],
| which would allow more widespread research into pain
| management and other medical uses.
|
| I hope you don't find yourself in that situation again.
|
| [0] https://adrspine.com/treatments/lumbar-laminotomy
|
| [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spinal_stenosis
|
| [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Controlled_Substances_Act
| yodsanklai wrote:
| > cannabis was insufficient to address the pain.
|
| Not only cannabis isn't a good painkiller, but it comes
| with very strong side-effects: it makes you totally unable
| to do any activity. This is fine for a recreational usage,
| but for a therapeutic usage, it's a serious problem.
| Especially when alternatives exist.
| thebigjewbowski wrote:
| I'm always curious about using ketamine for situations like
| this.
|
| I've found that with medical marijuana you still feel the
| pain but you just don't care because you're stoned, granted I
| haven't had pain such as yours.
|
| With ketamine, at low doses you get a disassociated effect
| without much cognitive load but I haven't taken it when I was
| in pain and unfortunately don't have ready access to it
| anymore.
|
| I'd taken Vicodin for 2 days after a surgery and quit it
| immediately because I couldn't think clearly, nausea, etc and
| didn't want anything to do with it.
| treeman79 wrote:
| Have a mix of nerve pain and a number of kidney stones.
|
| A bad kidney stone will leave you suicidal after awhile.
| Tramadol was only thing that go me through those.
|
| Nerve pain is harder as it's long term. Never as bad as a
| kidney stone. But it is it something you can live with
| indefinitely. Tramadol works. But then you get long term
| addiction. I would stop for a month every few months just to
| detox some.
|
| Eventually I discovered LDN. Which got pain under control.
| Plus side you can't take opioids.
|
| Was a nightmare finding a doctor that would prescribe it
| though.
| avgDev wrote:
| I have some nerve pain. I tried LDN for maybe a month and
| it did nothing for me. What dosage are you and how long
| have you been taking it before seeing an improvement?
| SmileyJames wrote:
| https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Low-dose_naltrexone
| cmrdporcupine wrote:
| Surely I'm not the only person for who cannabis just makes pain
| far worse. In fact I know I'm not I've heard it from other
| people.
|
| Opiates are spooky, but ... they work really well.
| mod wrote:
| I have both experiences. Sometimes it dulls the pain, sometimes
| I think it focuses my mind on it.
|
| Particularly intense pain seems to be amplified.
| freedomben wrote:
| You're not the only one - it does me as well. But
| unfortunately, the people who make the rules don't care about
| our suffering.
| bittercynic wrote:
| One more here. I'm very glad that I experimented with
| cannabis while healthy, and not when needing relief from
| acute pain.
| [deleted]
| throwayyy479087 wrote:
| When you deal with large populations there's a _guarantee_ a
| solution won't work for everyone. Addressing the opioid
| epidemic is very difficult and you have to take what wins you
| can get.
| wayvey wrote:
| Unsure why but when I read this I had Jimmy Car narrating the
| comment in my head. Not taking sides or voicing opinions.
| Best regards Joe Wilkinson
| Taywee wrote:
| Me too. I enjoyed weed recreationally for a long time, but I
| had to quit because it caused full-body muscle aches (and I
| experimented with many strains, CBD/THC amounts and ratios,
| edibles, the works). Any pain I have is more acute, muscle
| soreness in my back, hands, abs, shoulders and jaw that last
| for days after use, nasal congestion, and long-lasting anxiety
| and sleep problems. All regardless of strain and CBD content.
|
| I appreciate the positives of legalization and how well it
| works medicinally for some people, but proponents often act
| like it's a no-brainer panacea that is universally applicable,
| and that's just not the case. In my experience, it affects a
| lot of people extremely differently, and for some people it's
| effectively not a real option.
| ryandvm wrote:
| No, you're not the only one. Whenever I've taken THC for pain
| it actually makes it, not worse, but more noticeable. I feel
| like it's a perception thing and it really just heightens my
| awareness of whatever pain I was dealing with.
| loudmax wrote:
| I imagine it has a lot to do with the type of pain. I don't
| think I'd want canniboids for a sharp pain, and certainly not
| for anything intense. But for a chronic pain or some kind of
| ache where you're taking medication over a long term, a daily
| dose of cannabis has got to be much better than any kind of
| opiate.
| cmrdporcupine wrote:
| Nah, I have chronic pain. Muscle stuff (back, hips). And
| arthritis.
|
| They're insantly worse the moment I consume.
|
| I know it's hard for those who enjoy cannabis to understand
| this. But for me it's a highly unpleasant drug. Maybe the
| most unpleasant of the various recreational substances I've
| taken over the year. For me it's pain and paranoia.
|
| In the milieux I was in in my 20s it was constantly around,
| and wow, was I ever happier once I just stopped trying it.
|
| When it became legal here I tried it again. Nope, still
| sucks.
| hn8305823 wrote:
| I don't know if this will help you but:
|
| Cannabis tends to amplify whatever you are thinking about.
| If you are mentally focused on the pain that will almost
| certainly be counter productive.
|
| For paranoia, a trick that works for me is to
| mentally/consciously call out the paranoia and acknowledge
| that it is exaggerated/not real and instead caused by the
| cannabis. As soon as I do that it disappears.
| encryptluks2 wrote:
| I used to be a frequent user, and began to have the same
| issue where it would make my pain feel worse. I took a long
| break and recently tried again and actually noticed quite a
| bit of relief from pain. I think there are a lot of factors
| at play here including how it is consumed, strain, mental
| state, etc.
| newguynewphone wrote:
| after a bad knee injury i was given the 512 variant of
| percocet, after a month, i was so hooked to the point of
| constipation and needing medical intervention.
|
| At my worst point after switching to medical cannabis, the
| worst i have had is a groggy day.
|
| Opiates work well, too well i would say.
| jmyeet wrote:
| Years ago before the cannabis legalization wave of the last
| decade I read an article about how the War on Drugs had resulted
| in black tar heroin being cheaper than cannabis.
|
| The War on Drugs will go down as an inhumane, horrific failure.
| We should never forget its origins as a reactionary wave against
| counterculturalism (ie hippies) and black people. Cannabis
| remains a Schedule I drug (meaning no medical uses despite all
| evidence to the contrary). There have been vast disparities in
| sentencing guidelines between crack and powder cocaine (eg 5g of
| crack vs 500g of powder for trafficking [1]).
|
| We have a pipeline here of the overprescription of opiates by US
| doctors to a level no other country does. IIRC I read once that
| if you're still taking opiates 2 weeks after you're prescribed
| them there's a 50% chance you'll be taking them in a year.
|
| Illegal opiate pills are expensive. Heroin (including black tar
| heroin) is cheap. A lot of heroin addicts started with a legal
| opiate prescription [2]. The likes of Purdue and the Sacklers
| were complicit in lies about Oxycontin and profited on creating
| opiate addiction. In a fairer world, Purdue would be seized by
| the government, the assets of the Sacklers would be seized and
| those most responsible would be executed (and the rest get to
| spend their lives in jail).
|
| It is utterly no surprise cannabis reduces the demand for opiates
| (and thus the stock price of pharama companies). Just how much
| evidence do we need to legalize cannabis at the Federal level?
|
| The president doesn't seem to have unliteral powder to legalize
| cannabis [3] but could trigger a reclassification and he could
| change how the DEA treats and prosecutes cannabis offences. Over
| a third of people now live in states where recreational cannabis
| usage is either legal or soon will be. It's really time to demand
| change.
|
| [1]:
| https://www.usnews.com/news/national/articles/2007/10/01/cra...
|
| [2]: https://nida.nih.gov/publications/research-
| reports/prescript...
|
| [3]: https://www.jdsupra.com/legalnews/can-president-biden-
| legali...
| PartiallyTyped wrote:
| Something something more competition is good for the market
| something something.
| Animats wrote:
| From the actual paper: _" The difference is about 1.5-2%,
| statistically significant, and persists during the 20 business
| days following the (legalization) event."_[1]
|
| This is more like a useful hint for short-term traders, not a
| long-term effect.
|
| [1]
| https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal...
| cantSpellSober wrote:
| Do people replace opioids with cannabis?
| bobthepanda wrote:
| It's mostly used more for chronic pain, I thought. Particularly
| where pain starts suppressing appetite, weed induced munchies
| are a great way to keep things down.
| barbazoo wrote:
| Very much so. Here's just a few resources on this from
| Vancouver:
|
| https://www.vice.com/en/article/ne45vd/more-vancouver-opioid...
|
| https://mugglehead.com/vancouver-cannabis-harm-reduction-pro...
| cantSpellSober wrote:
| Thanks, a replacement for methadone though? I'm skeptical:
|
| "...no consensus among studies that cannabis use is
| associated with reduced opioid use or longer treatment
| retention when used during methadone maintenance therapy"
|
| https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/31744904/
| bitxbitxbitcoin wrote:
| Yes. In fact, it seems that when legalization happens - opioid
| use/overdoses in neighboring states goes down too.[0]
|
| [0] https://thehighestcritic.com/news/recreational-marijuana-
| leg...
| GeekyBear wrote:
| >States with medical marijuana laws had a 24.8 percent lower
| average annual opioid overdose death rate compared to states
| without such laws. In 2010, that translated to about 1,729
| fewer deaths than expected. The years after implementation of
| medical marijuana laws also were associated with lower overdose
| death rates that generally got stronger over time: year 1
| (-19.9 percent), year 2 (-25.2 percent), year 3 (-23.6
| percent), year 4 (-20.2 percent), year 5 (-33.7 percent) and
| year 6 (-33.3 percent).
|
| https://media.jamanetwork.com/news-item/lower-opioid-overdos...
| cantSpellSober wrote:
| Yes but "the reason why is not clear" and "a direct causal
| link cannot be established"
| pmoleri wrote:
| Sarcasm, right?
| cantSpellSober wrote:
| Worthless comment, right? If you'd read the link you'd
| know I'm quoting directly. It cites studies, like this
| one:
| https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4392651/
|
| ...which declares other correlations: "cannabis use has
| been linked with increased use of other drugs, including
| opioids" again adding "however, a causal relationship has
| not been established." Should we assume the _bad_ stuff
| is causal, too? I don 't believe we should.
| bobthepanda wrote:
| Is that from people switching from opioids to marijuana, or
| from less new people starting with opioids?
| girishso wrote:
| > They found that stock market returns were 1.5-2% lower at 10
| days following a cannabis legalization event
|
| 10 days? That only affects short term "traders", can be used as a
| trading opportunity at most.
|
| I'm interested in long term effects, has legalization affected
| sales of medicines over 2/3 years?
| yowayb wrote:
| The power/problem of cannabis is that it's not as
| addictive/strong as opium. Make no mistake, this is a business
| problem. Just like disposable razors, the (stock) market always
| rewards the high that doesn't last, or leaves you wanting more.
|
| The one thing that both of these drugs get right is an ingredient
| that Katt Williams called "f* it".
|
| It is the idea that maybe you're sweating the small stuff a bit
| too much and maybe you should just let the power bill go and
| light those candles that have been sitting around forever.
|
| But the market won't let a good-enough solution alone. The market
| will always demand something a little better, a little stronger,
| and before you know it, you're hooked.
___________________________________________________________________
(page generated 2022-09-02 23:00 UTC)