[HN Gopher] Driver Monitoring Raises Complexity, Adds Privacy Co...
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Driver Monitoring Raises Complexity, Adds Privacy Concerns
Author : PaulHoule
Score : 40 points
Date : 2022-09-02 13:19 UTC (9 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (semiengineering.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (semiengineering.com)
| bmismyname wrote:
| Can we please just have high quality public transit, including
| high-speed inter-city rail?
| treeman79 wrote:
| Most of the country is low density.
|
| Local buses were shut down for almost 2 years from Covid. Tons
| of businesses shut down for sole reason that people couldn't
| get to work. Not having a car is insane.
| hayst4ck wrote:
| The first time you go to a city that has incredible public
| transportation you will have a very transformative
| experience. Go spend a month in Seoul or Taipei.
|
| Cars are poison. They poison walk-ability, they poison
| commuting, they damage health from their exhaust, deprivation
| of walking, and crashes, they require attention to operate
| and thus literally steal your life hours. Cars require
| parking and parking spaces. Cars require wide roads which
| reduces density. Cars require surface level roads. Cars
| create traffic. Cars spit in the face of economies of scale.
|
| When I lived in the center of a city, I could run my finger
| across my window seal and it would come up black from all the
| car exhaust that had settled on it. That is going into our
| lungs.
|
| Structuring the operations of life around cars is insane.
|
| Density is a policy choice.
| bmismyname wrote:
| This is a tired old argument that doesn't stand up to
| scrutiny. The majority of people live in cities, not rural
| homesteads.
|
| Once upon a time we didn't have the interstate system, but
| FDR created the New Deal, and with that the federal
| government created the interstate highway system we have
| today. We can do the same for rail, but the automobile
| lobbyists won't allow it.
|
| I'd argue that the interstate highway system is probably the
| USA's greatest accomplishment, and one of the greatest public
| works projects. FDR sold it by framing it as a national
| defense initiative.
|
| Maybe we need to use some of that national defense budget for
| public transit? Sadly, I don't think we'll ever have a
| politician with the kind of gumption necessary to save
| ourselves from ourselves.
| treeman79 wrote:
| Low density cities. Few places are like Chicago or New
| York.
|
| The interstate highway system was actually for defense.
| Moving things from coast to coast was far to difficult.
|
| FDR saw the German Highway system during the war and was
| rightfully jealous.
| bmismyname wrote:
| Let's say you're right, and cities are low density. So
| what? What precludes them from having good public
| transit? Roads exist, why can't they be rail lines
| instead?
|
| Roads are quite expensive, and there are many internet
| resources with tons of evidence and arguments about this:
| strong towns, not just bikes, climate town, etc.
| toast0 wrote:
| Roads are much easier to interconnect than rails because
| road vehicles can make much sharper turns and handle
| steeper grades.
|
| Point to point navigation has high utility and is
| difficult to acheive with rail.
|
| Minimum viable roads are actually quite inexpensive:
| clear large vegetation from the path and there's a usable
| road. You can incrementally improve with path markers,
| grading, gravel, pavement, etc. Minimum viable rail is a
| much higher standard, which needs grading, railbed
| preparation, laying the rail, signalling and operations.
| briandear wrote:
| Until a transit strike paralyzes it. Or until a storm shuts it
| down. Or until government decides to shut it down Covid-style.
| Or until the trains turn into homeless shelters with meth-
| overdosing zombies. Last thing in the world I want to do is
| spend time with "the public." Or have to haul kids and
| groceries via train. Or have to get to a doctors appointment on
| one side of town and then another event on the other side of
| town and minimal time to connect those dots. I also don't want
| to walk multiple blocks during heat waves, storms, or snow.
| hayst4ck wrote:
| > Until a transit strike paralyzes it.
|
| People have had protests in the middle of a free way, so
| human action resulting in paralyzed transportation isn't
| novel. Storms, car crashes etc have "paralyzed" roads.
| Bridges have fallen into water ways paralyzing transit. https
| ://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I-5_Skagit_River_bridge_collap...
|
| > Or until government decides to shut it down Covid-style...
|
| If you have widely used public transportation, then it can't
| be shut down. The public won't allow it. It goes from
| infrastructure to critical infrastructure. You would probably
| see enforced mask mandates.
|
| If you have public transportation used by the middle or upper
| class, the tolerance for homeless and drugs will decrease.
|
| > Last thing in the world...
|
| And this is the fundamental selfishness. You want to rob
| cities of economies of scale so they can subsidize your posh
| suburban life style. Meanwhile, there's a whole bunch of
| people just like you, and the end result is hour long
| commutes for 20 minute's of distance or 10 lane freeways that
| somehow seem to be some of the most clogged in the nation.
| You have bad experiences with American "public
| transportation" but probably haven't experienced functional
| transportation. Your point to point trip in a city could be
| unencumbered by the spectre of traffic.
|
| > I also don't want to walk multiple blocks during heat
| waves, storms, or snow.
|
| If you travel to Asia, you will find that functional
| transportation often comes with sprawling subterranean
| complexes or covered walkways. Even when it doesn't there are
| umbrellas for sale everywhere.
|
| You still have to park and travel from your parking to your
| destination. I don't know about you, but that's frequently
| been blocks of walking for me in any city.
|
| American public transportation is bad. It's not reasonable to
| point to our bad transportation and say public transportation
| as an idea is bad. It is a vastly more pleasant experience in
| other places.
| cgearhart wrote:
| I realize that everyone involved has the best of intentions, and
| that some of these things will save lives. Still, I don't
| actually trust that the technology (like the Gaize test device,
| AutoPilot, etc.) actually _work_ reliably and without bias. I
| feel overwhelmingly certain that we need _more_ data privacy
| guarantees, not more private companies like insurance groups and
| car manufacturers slurping up ever more data. This all sounds so
| boringly dystopian.
| xapata wrote:
| Once the data is spreads past a certain minimum availability,
| it's better to make it widely available instead of restricted.
| For example, my Social Security Number has been leaked every
| few years over the last decade or so. Yet, its partial
| restriction makes knowledge of it appear to be useful for
| authentication.
|
| Similarly, if a trace of my location is only known to my mobile
| network provider and government surveillance, then if I get
| swept up by some mistaken dragnet, I'd be disappeared. If it
| were published to all my friends, family, and neighbors, they'd
| at least be able to see when and where I was taken, and maybe
| be able to fight for my release. Ideally, the security camera
| video of my capture would have been live-streamed to the public
| as well. We can't rely on individuals to be present and taking
| out their cameras. The public needs its own surveillance to
| protect itself from the state.
| trinsic2 wrote:
| Privacy concerns aside regarding how this information in a
| negative way. I want my alertness to be monitored. One of the
| smart cars I was driving recently poped up a recommendation on
| the console that I should pull over and take a short break, or
| something to that effect. I realized that I was tired and groggy
| and I thought that was a good idea. So I pulled over and rested
| for about 20mins then got back on the road and I was more alert.
| I think these prompts are great because sometimes I don't realize
| that my lack of alertness can be dangerous. Having that reminder
| is a great plus in my experience.
| hitpointdrew wrote:
| I think the solution should be to be more self-aware, not to
| jam highly invasive technology into vehicles. I don't want my
| car to have any sense of my "alertness" at all, ever, I don't
| care if it keeps that data local, it should never ever be
| recording/monitoring it in the first place.
| mistrial9 wrote:
| when I was taught to drive by a professional driver,
| alertness, eye movement, passenger safety and control of the
| vehicle are part of the driving. After thirty years of safe
| driving, it is stunning to see people voting to include
| "alertness monitoring" .. you want that ?!? It seems like
| mental illness to me, to want that in your car, when you
| cannot turn it off.. Secondly I have posted about NO being
| tracked at all times, and gotten downvotes for that .. really
| honestly, what are you asking for voters?
| csours wrote:
| The problem with losing alertness is that you also lose your
| ability to monitor alertness.
| thfuran wrote:
| Yeah, and we can rip out all those pointless and expensive
| seatbelts and crumple zones and airbags and replace them with
| just a bit more unerringness.
| PaulHoule wrote:
| It's been an active research topic for big truck and military
| aircraft operators since the 1980s with a reputation of being a
| very challenging problem.
| Schroedingersat wrote:
| Sounds like a great use case for a train.
| briandear wrote:
| Is there a train to Aspen?
| hooverd wrote:
| There should be.
| fma wrote:
| The Rav4 has an aggressive driving indicator too I believe. One
| day my wife was out and we had an argument over the phone (my
| fault, of course...) She drove back in an emotional state of
| mind snd the car suggested her to pull over.
|
| I don't see why driver monitoring data needs to go to the
| cloud. If the car senses swerving and large fluctuation in
| acceleration then the driver should take a rest.
| Wohlf wrote:
| The pull of the lane assist alone helps me realize when I'm
| not paying enough attention to the road.
| Swenrekcah wrote:
| That is very interesting. Do you know what the system used to
| determine your alertness?
| Bancakes wrote:
| And there you go. Self driving cars won't take over because AI
| is as good as humans, rather because humans regress below AI.
| ulnarkressty wrote:
| Driver and occupant monitoring will save lives, at least until we
| get high level autonomy. E.g. monitoring driver attentiveness and
| sleepiness or pet / child detection in hot cars (the latter will
| get points soon in EuroNCAP testing [0]).
|
| There are already cameras monitoring humans inside rental cars
| and nobody seems to mind. If privacy concerns really become
| paramount there's always lidar/radar that offers relatively high
| anonymity.
|
| [0]
| https://unece.org/sites/default/files/2021-12/GRSP-70-30e.pd...
| giobox wrote:
| > There are already cameras monitoring humans inside rental
| cars and nobody seems to mind
|
| While i'm fully aware my rental can often have GPS tracking etc
| for the rental company, I have never, ever seen a rental with a
| camera filming the occupants, and I've rented _a lot_ of cars
| around the world. I cant find any evidence of this online
| either.
|
| The one example I can find where a lens was present in the
| cabin from Hertz appears to be part of a navigation system
| feature that was never used, and Hertz even then had to handle
| public backlash for the disabled camera. The public
| backlash/reputation damage of filming private occupants in the
| cabin solely for the security benefit of the rental agency
| would be pretty significant too, to the extent I can't imagine
| this happening in most Western nations.
| staringback wrote:
| Dear god 38 fatalities a year in a country of over 300 million,
| we must scramble to deploy this new technology in all vehicles
| with no delay!
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(page generated 2022-09-02 23:01 UTC)