[HN Gopher] Folk Interfaces
___________________________________________________________________
Folk Interfaces
Author : lysergia
Score : 192 points
Date : 2022-09-02 09:34 UTC (13 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (maggieappleton.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (maggieappleton.com)
| austinsharp wrote:
| I was surprised to see no mention of automation tools like IFTTT
| and Tasker. These sorts of overarching automation oriented tools
| let people solve a lot of problems by stitching together things
| that aren't designed to work together.
|
| I would actually put Excel in this original category. Part of
| Excel's utility is that it is really good at enabling building of
| dashboards, applications, whatever. While Excel's builders didn't
| have D&D character sheets in mind, they definitely expect users
| to do unanticipated things with the software, just as much as
| IFTTT or Tasker would.
|
| In some ways this is a "platform" type of perspective. "Here's a
| bunch of building blocks, go do whatever you think you need" is
| really powerful once the network effect of building blocks gets
| big enough. Any tool with a built-in DSL or workflow builder type
| of UI is probably in this category.
| jessejjohnson wrote:
| The theme/presentation of this site is top tier. Nice work.
| avg_dev wrote:
| I found the post interesting. It provoked me to think about the
| low-code, no-code movements, and of the concept of folk
| interfaces. It is a nice term and I will try keep it with me in
| my future thinking. I found the 9c radio particularly appealing.
| It also made me consider how I ended up where I am now, and one
| thing that struck me is that when I was learning to program, I
| tried learning from textbooks about programming and they
| intimidated me and felt impenetrable. I didn't know how to get
| into them at all. Then by stroke of fortune I came across the
| first programming book that really took me. It was called C for
| Dummies, by Dan Gookin. It was filled with humor and encouraged
| experimentation, and above all it was empowering. It made me feel
| good and it inspired me: I sent a couple of busted but well-
| intentioned input routines off to a friend who was further along
| in the process than I was and he introduced me to the off-by-one-
| error. I never became a good C programmer, but I learned how to
| make the computer do my bidding in small ways, and it wasn't long
| before I picked up another book, on Perl and CGI.pm, and I wrote
| my first "web applications". Eventually I went on to do a
| computer science degree. Today, by HN standards, I'm maybe
| nothing to write home about, but I make a very comfortable living
| and I enjoy writing code at work. I enjoy learning about tech in
| my spare time, even now.
|
| I guess what I'm trying to get at is that I wish to see learning
| to code, per se, easily accessible for all. I'm not talking about
| cheap or even free boot camps that promise entry into a lucrative
| job market. I'm talking about a kid, or a parent, or an auntie or
| uncle or cousin or sister or brother, about whoever, who just
| sees something they want to make happen and they literally do
| because they can. I read through the comments and I re-read the
| wonderful article by Robin Sloan linked below ("An app can be a
| home-cooked meal" -- look through this comment thread, and you'll
| see it, alongside my first observation of the term "OA", one that
| took me some time to decipher -- another thing that will stick
| with me).
|
| I believe that programming is and always will be for the masses.
| I believe in development best practices when they are called for.
| But for learning, for discovering the beauty of computing and the
| joy of software, of writing one's first programs, I wish the
| barriers were less!
| sgt wrote:
| On the etymology of "folk", saying that it the word comes from
| Old English folc is true, although a vast over-simplification. A
| lot of languages share this word.
|
| This is actually an ancient word, you can trace it back to proto-
| Germanic "fulka", and further to Proto-Indo-European "plh-gos"
| (presumably pronounced something like phulgos or pholgos, close
| enough to folk).
| Mappleton wrote:
| OA here. Thanks for the expanded etymology. I was using
| https://www.etymonline.com/word/folk as my source which goes
| into more historical detail. But didn't want to get too carried
| away in the opener on etymology.
| talideon wrote:
| If you want its direct ancestor, then it's perfectly true. The
| etymology further back than that would be irrelevant, and also
| unattested.
| avgcorrection wrote:
| Folksy: people doing good or neutral stuff
|
| Vulgar, populist: people doing naughty or debased stuff
| thegabriele wrote:
| ...and then from phulgos to the latin "vulgus"?
| bombcar wrote:
| Where "vulgate" and "vulgar" come from, the common.
| lrpe wrote:
| I build fictional worlds as a hobby, and sometimes I need to make
| a map of a globe and find myself in need of a program that can
| draw vector shapes onto a globe and project it onto a 2D map
| afterwards. The simplest way I've found to do that which fits my
| workflow is a program called GPlates. A program that simulates
| plate tectonics. I've never touched the simulation part, although
| it might be useful in my worldbuilding at some point. All I use
| it for is drawing colored shapes.
| uhoh-itsmaciek wrote:
| Folk interfaces are a natural consequence of the focus on
| building applications for millions of users and the dearth of
| situated software [1]. They're also a clever way of claiming no-
| code or low-code platforms in unexpected places.
|
| [1]: https://www.gwern.net/docs/technology/2004-03-30-shirky-
| situ...
| mikewarot wrote:
| Random folk practice that _drove me nuts_ , Outlook "Deleted
| Items Folder" as storage, never actually deleted, ever.
|
| 20+ Gigabyte mailboxes, which were actually a threaded,
| searchable, rich content database. (Exchange's superpower (when
| it works) is a almost perfect online/offline sync able database
| -- You can send an email in your offline client, when you go
| online it'll get sent, your calendar updates will sync, etc)
| yuchi wrote:
| This argument is very similar to what I usually, probably
| inappropriately, refer to "malleability" of a software, interface
| or system in general: it's ability to be used way beyond the
| initial use cases, and hopefully be good at it.
| rileyphone wrote:
| This is referred to in the literature as 'appropriation' [0],
| though perhaps that term has gained too much cultural baggage
| recently to be useful.
|
| [0]
| https://www.scienceopen.com/document_file/cbe110a4-c761-4afe...
| dan-g wrote:
| One of my favorite creative uses of Excel comes from !!Con 2017,
| where Kevin Chen used spreadsheet to implement HDR imaging[1].
| It's also just an incredibly well-crafted presentation.
|
| [1] https://kevinchen.co/projects/excel-hdr/
| mikewarot wrote:
| Using Virtual Machines as capability based security is something
| I've come to accept.
|
| Windows and Linux are vulnerable to the confused deputy problem,
| so you separate your concerns into separate VMs and give each
| "machine" a set of resources (capabilities)
|
| IBM and Digital machines have done this since the 1960s.
| tikwidd wrote:
| Some random folk practices I've come across:
|
| * Blocking, stacking and pulling creep camps in DOTA. Unintended
| behaviours that became core game mechanics.
|
| * Comments in the tag section of Tumblr posts, to avoid the
| comments appearing in a reblog ("Why do people use tags on tumblr
| instead of comments?" [1])
|
| * The appropriation of switching MOSFETs such as the IRF510,
| designed for low frequencies, in homebrew amateur radio QRP power
| amplifiers. "In talking to International Rectifier, they were
| floored to find out QRPers were using them at 7MHz or higher."
| [2]
|
| [1]
| https://www.reddit.com/r/NoStupidQuestions/comments/nu4vpa/w...
|
| [2] http://www.iw3sgt.it/IW3SGT_PRJ/IW3SGT_AMP_LF/ClassDEF1.pdf
| dietmtnview wrote:
| Since we're talking about DOTA. Defense of the Ancients was a
| custom map game in Warcraft III. I don't know if this is still
| a thing, but custom map games on Starcraft and Warcraft III
| absolutely ruled. There was freeze tag, capture the flag, tower
| defense, a zombie defense like game based on Starship Troopers.
| Absolute golden age of gaming for me as a kid.
| salmo wrote:
| Distortion, overdrive, and the 808 are all examples off the top
| of my head of folk analog audio.
|
| The former two tend to use the imperfection of diodes leaking
| to create varying degrees of fuzz (really clipping) based on
| placement. It fakes pushing an amp past it's thresholds.
|
| The latter abused chips that failed QA as the source of noise.
| They can't make "real" ones anymore, since the chip is out of
| production. This one's from my memory and the description may
| be flawed.
|
| In both cases, abusing electronics' imperfections is the goal.
|
| Now with pedals, you get magical beliefs about "original"
| parts, but that's another story.
|
| So many guitar effects are based on accidents and
| replication/reduction of them. It's both technically and
| historically fascinating to me. "This sucks, but sounds cool.
| How can I make a smaller box that does it?"
| kanar1e wrote:
| I believe another term related to these phenomena is Elephant
| Paths. Named after the trails that pedestrians leave behind
| when they choose a shorter path over grass in favor of the
| official paved paths.
| pjc50 wrote:
| Twitter's "retweet" and "hashtag" were both folk innovations
| that became product features. People used to write 'RT @user
| "comment"' to retweet.
| Cthulhu_ wrote:
| I found that a really interesting development, and they
| embraced it. Probably the best example of "go with where your
| users are going" I can think of.
|
| And it's silly as well, because anyone with a few weeks of
| software development knowledge could probably hack a Twitter-
| like together. Not that at that scale, admittedly, but still,
| prototype-twitter was nothing fancy.
| pimlottc wrote:
| There's a term for this: "desire path"
|
| Like when you see a worn path in the grass where hundreds
| of people took the same shortcuts instead of using the
| proper planned-out pathways.
|
| https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desire_path
| amadeuspagel wrote:
| The quote RT is another example. People used to take
| screenshots of tweets to quote RT.
| jonahx wrote:
| This is like the interface version of Hyrum's law:
| With a sufficient number of users of an API, it does not
| matter what you promise in the contract: all observable
| behaviors of your system will be depended on by somebody.
| VyseofArcadia wrote:
| Obligatory xkcd: https://xkcd.com/1172/
| SamBam wrote:
| Orthogonal to the main point of the article, I was interested in
| the mention of Victor Papanek's tin can radio receiver, which
| apparently cost 9c to make (presumably the cost of the
| transistor, since everything else was recycled), and could be
| fueled by burning wax or dung.
|
| I haven't been able to find a simple guide for how to make one
| myself.
| password4321 wrote:
| Not super useful without a tuner, receiving every frequency at
| once.
|
| Perhaps the next step up:
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foxhole_radio
| failrate wrote:
| It sounds similar to a trench radio, in which case it is
| entirely passive (like a cat's whisker radio), and used a flame
| source to treat the surface of a razor blade upon which the
| needle was sat.
| mikewarot wrote:
| Odds are that 9 cents is the production cost in massive
| quantity. A single unit might be days of work and a few dollars
| of parts. (Inflation)
| ChrisMarshallNY wrote:
| The biggest issue that I come across, is users of my software,
| developing mental models of the software that I would never, in a
| million years, have developed, myself.
|
| They often work with the software, based on their "strange"
| mental model, and can have very weird workflows.
|
| In some cases, this is excellent, and it is worth it for me to
| learn the new model, and maybe add affordances for it.
| leokennis wrote:
| One example for me is iMovie on macOS. They dedicate 50% of the
| screen to a sort of "project media library" where you put all
| videos and audio you want to use in your project and that also
| holds all titles, transitions etc. you can add.
|
| Literally everyone I ever see using this software drags videos
| directly from the finder onto the timeline, then pick a
| transition once and then just copy/paste it within the
| timeline. So 50% of the screen is wasted real estate for a lot
| of the users.
| PoignardAzur wrote:
| I'm not sure I understand what you mean.
|
| Are you saying that this is wrong because picking "assets"
| (rushes, transitions) is done once at the beginning of the
| edit process, so the screen space is wasted the rest of the
| time?
| xsmasher wrote:
| Not the poster you replied to, but I think I understand.
|
| * instead of using a two step process (add to library, then
| drag from library to timeline) users just drag media to the
| timeline. Makes sense. How often do you re-use the same
| clip?
|
| * instead of dragging in a transition and having to re-set
| the values from the defaults to the value you want, users
| drag in once, set the values, and then copy-paste it
| around.
|
| In both cases the users are doing the most efficient thing.
| With the real workflow in mind, having the media library
| take up so much screen space is a huge waste.
| leokennis wrote:
| Yep, exactly!
|
| This is the interface:
|
| https://kennis.cc/public_uploads/c39f8aab.jpeg
|
| The entire yellow part is basically a poor approximation
| of the Finder, and you can see how little space that
| leaves for the video preview.
|
| Either that or I genuinely misunderstand some brilliant
| concept from Apple.
| lopis wrote:
| My favourite XKCD "Workflow" [0] is very relevant here.
|
| Unfortunately, because people function that way, there's a lot
| of pain ahead for those to learn to rely of obscure uses of
| software. Sooner or later those pathways are dropped, if for no
| other reason than cutting down on maintenance costs.
|
| https://xkcd.com/1172/
| uhoh-itsmaciek wrote:
| Could you talk about some concrete examples?
| ChrisMarshallNY wrote:
| Gimme a bit. I'm going to have to come up with examples that
| don't compromise any proprietary information. Most of the
| examples are from my work for a photography equipment
| manufacturer, and they wouldn't want me to talk about it.
| bombcar wrote:
| Git is a pile of patches!
| ThePadawan wrote:
| Not parent, but here's an example from a past project.
|
| Customer: "Could you make the 'name' field of this entity
| longer? We need to add longer names."
|
| Me: "Why?"
|
| Customer: "Well, we want to name the entity '2022 - Spring -
| $500k - Contoso Inc. - Presale stage' so we can find it more
| easily."
|
| Me: "So what you actually want is to be able to filter/search
| for entities by all those values, and you're just using the
| name as a workaround because it's all you have."
|
| Customer: "Well that's how we do it in Excel."
| pradn wrote:
| This is why listings on Amazon are a million words long.
| They do an adequate job pulling important attributes into
| the metadata so you can filter on them, for some
| categories. For example, the size and type of TVs. But it's
| not really possible to do that for all product categories.
| Moreover, users can't easily see the attributes in the
| search page, so it's best to just put it all in the title.
| For things like motherboards, they get super dense with
| jargon.
| ThePadawan wrote:
| I worked at Switzerland's biggest online retailer whose
| USP was that it actually did strongly typed attributes
| really really well.
|
| To date, it's still incredibly searchable. Want to find a
| 5.5" phone running Android 10+ and at least a 12MP back-
| facing camera for below $350? You can filter for it.
|
| It was an absolute nightmare on the (normalized, backend)
| technical level, but a real pleasure to consume on the
| denormalized, frontend level.
| leokennis wrote:
| https://tweakers.net/pricewatch/ is also a great example
| of this. No idea how they do it.
| [deleted]
| leokennis wrote:
| Worst part is, even if the fields are there (let's say in
| JIRA) there will still be a soulless bureaucrat middle
| manager who'll regularly remind everyone by e-mail to use
| the "JIRA task title template guidelines" so you end up
| with stories like "[PRD][Feature X][XL][Development][JAVA]
| Bugfix for calling API Y with empty order ID [Prio
| 4][Impact 2][2022Q3-sprint5]"
| bombcar wrote:
| This SO MUCH!
|
| It doesn't matter that you can add any fields you want in
| Salesforce, and we do, nobody will use them and continue to
| encode all the information in the title of the object.
| ThePadawan wrote:
| Funnily enough - I was building this application ...to
| replace Salesforce (for this business process, not
| company-wide).
|
| Because the person managing Salesforce approved all
| requests to add any field, there were just 400 instead of
| the 5 I mentioned, and none had any validation - so no
| one knew which ones to fill with data, which ones to keep
| updated, and which ones absolutely to never touch because
| you would accidentally commit fraud because you falsified
| sales figures.
| bo0tzz wrote:
| Another article in a similar vein, that I thoroughly enjoyed
| yesterday: https://www.robinsloan.com/notes/home-cooked-app/
| shanusmagnus wrote:
| Thank you so much for surfacing this! I've never heard of Robin
| Sloan, but I loved this article to a disturbing degree. How
| beautiful, how true.
| Mappleton wrote:
| OA here. Loved this piece as well, and it certainly got me
| thinking about a set of themes that led to this essay. Robin is
| an exceptional thinker in this space.
| nicbou wrote:
| I frequently use this metaphor. This article had a profound
| impact on what I work on. It's well worth a read.
| amadeuspagel wrote:
| A lot of people use gmail or whatsapp for notes.
| inasmuch wrote:
| Whenever I need to explain to laypeople what I do as a software
| designer, I tell them that most of my job is figuring out new
| ways to visualize and connect outlines and spreadsheets.
| mikewarot wrote:
| I use Hugin[1] to manually align images and combine them into
| virtual focus.[2] I started doing this after learning of the
| Stanford Multi-Camera array[3], and wanting to replicate the
| ability to see through things[4].
|
| I didn't have the budget, so I used one camera and a cluster of
| photos from slightly varying locations. I got there
| eventually.[5]
|
| [1] https://hugin.sourceforge.io/
|
| [2]
| https://www.flickr.com/photos/---mike---/albums/721577185851...
|
| [3] http://graphics.stanford.edu/projects/array/
|
| [4]
| http://graphics.stanford.edu/projects/array/videos/crowd0-sa...
|
| [5]
| https://www.flickr.com/photos/---mike---/51018992733/in/albu...
| benjaminjosephw wrote:
| > No matter how much well-intentioned user research these
| companies invest in, they'll never be able to produce software
| that fully meets the needs of individual users and culturally
| distant communities.
|
| Domain experts being able to solve their own problems sounds is a
| worthwhile objective for software tools but innovation in this
| space has been surprisingly sparce.
|
| I've been searching for other examples of end-user programmmable
| tools beyond spreadsheets for inspiration. Anyone have
| suggestions of some other places these kinds of "folk interfaces"
| show up?
| pbronez wrote:
| The entire Low Code / No Code and RPA / IPA markets exist for
| this. Airtable, App Smith, etc are a modern, web-based take on
| Access.
|
| The more generic a tool is, the more creative people get with
| it. For example, emailing a file or note to yourself is a folk
| interface. Using a Facebook group to role play is a folk
| interface.
|
| Nothing has come close to matching spreadsheets though.
| msmenardi wrote:
| Not quite what you're asking for since it's designed to be
| hackable, but the Vim alternative text editor Kakoune:
|
| https://zork.net/~st/jottings/kakoune-a-punk-rock-text-edito...
| RunSet wrote:
| People using notepad to subtitle screen-captured tutorials on
| Youtube.
| Joker_vD wrote:
| As cringey as that looks, what are other options there?
| Windows' desktop (and neither Linux's IIRC) doesn't have a
| built-in "stick-it note" functionality -- which is kind of a
| shame if you really think about it.
| bee_rider wrote:
| There are a couple sticky notes programs that appear to be
| in the Ubuntu repos at least. I guess it isn't "built in"
| in the sense that it comes pre-installed on install disk,
| but it would be installed in the same way as any other
| first-party software.
| astrobe_ wrote:
| Browsers used to be. They used to let the user apply their own
| CSS sheets to websites, and some extensions still allow tem to
| manipulate pages ("user scripts").
|
| Web technologies were designed to let the user do what they
| want with the document they receive. But "the web" then evolved
| in a different direction.
|
| Case in point: TFA, like many other sites, is unusable without
| Javascript. And it's not even "because CDN". Why do I have to
| execute code on a page that could be 1:1 replicated in pure
| HTML ?
| slaymaker1907 wrote:
| It's very explicitly intended to be reprogrammed, but
| Tiddlywiki is a pretty good one. It is a great platform since
| it gives you data storage, advanced queries, and rendering.
| mikewarot wrote:
| Wait a minute... it's meant to be reprogrammed?
|
| SO THAT'S WHY I was pushed to try to use it (but didn't see
| the point after a few minutes) It's self contained AND
| REPROGRAMMABLE????? Holy cow!
| agentultra wrote:
| Corel's office suite has a scripting language if I recall. My
| grandfather in law learned enough of it to develop a few
| systems for managing family finances, gifting (it's a large
| family), etc.
|
| Emacs is notable. It requires learning a bit of elisp
| programming but, like a browser, is basically a development
| environment that gives you access to a windowing system, input
| from the user, image rendering, text buffers, etc. Plenty of
| people write their own tools to manage particular workflows.
|
| _Update_
|
| Examples of emacs as folk interface:
|
| - https://bofh.org.uk/2019/02/25/baking-with-emacs/
| Cthulhu_ wrote:
| Minecraft comes to mind, if you want to think out of the box.
| lioeters wrote:
| In that case, I'd say Conway's Game of Life evolved into an
| unintended end-user programmable tool, or folk interface,
| where people figured out how to build logic circuits, Turing-
| complete programs, and eventually the Game of Life itself.
|
| These examples seem to show that there's a kind of wisdom and
| creativity of the crowd, the folk, collective behavior.
| nonoesp wrote:
| Visual programming tools, such as Grasshopper 3d, have created
| a microworld of custom-made plugins and user interfaces, mostly
| to generate 2d and 3d geometry, but often used to achieve other
| programming feats.
|
| There are even explicit plugins that let users create UI
| components to control and visualize program inputs and outputs.
| account-5 wrote:
| MS Access databases.
| EvanAnderson wrote:
| Microsoft Power Automate[0].
|
| This tool scares the hell out of me, as a sysadmin, with end
| users who have no education re: software engineering (and
| potentially really wonky mental models about software)
| developing potentially business-critical tools/processes out of
| the IT equivalent of "glue and tape".
|
| This is especially scary to me because building on "evergreen"
| platforms like Office 365 means that critical emergencies and
| downtime could occur at the whim of platform owners making
| changes to the underlying platform. Spacebar heating.. all
| that... >sigh< (And I'll be expected to fix it when it breaks
| and the user who made it has left...)
|
| [0] https://powerautomate.microsoft.com/en-us/
| eyelidlessness wrote:
| One I haven't seen mentioned: Max/MSP[1]. Technically it is a
| visual programming _language_ but I don't know how many users
| realize that.
|
| 1: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Max_(software)
| obliquely wrote:
| Hypercard was this and generated really rich "folk" artefacts.
| Filemaker (https://www.claris.com) is sort of this still. A
| modern example is Coda (https://coda.io) which is seeks to be
| spreadsheet like in terms of inviting folk (end users) to play
| and create while making database and scripting easy enough to
| discover and wrangle.
| andrepd wrote:
| > Large California-based companies produce monolithic apps and
| interfaces for a global audience. They're designing for the
| broadest, generic use cases to make things work for the greatest
| number of people.
|
| Hah! If only! Actually they often (but not always) seem to design
| it for an SV audience with the latest-gen phone/computer, fast
| uninterrupted internet, familiarity with the latest "UX" fads,
| perfect eyesight, etc. Anybody that falls outside that narrow
| group can get shafted.
| hprotagonist wrote:
| and when you start from the premise that folk interfaces are not
| only good but should be actively encouraged, you get something
| like emacs.
| Joker_vD wrote:
| > chairs as doorstoppers,
|
| Wait, there are actual things, called "doorstoppers", that are
| designed to work exactly as door stoppers and have no other
| discernible function? Do they by any chance look anything like
| paperweights?
| al2o3cr wrote:
| There are, and they'd make fairly poor paperweights because
| they aren't typically very heavy - the intent is to use
| friction with the ground to keep the door from moving, rather
| than just weight. For instance:
|
| https://www.homedepot.com/p/Everbilt-Heavy-Duty-Walnut-Brown...
| bombcar wrote:
| There are heavy ones (cast iron doorstop will find some) and
| they work better in certain cases.
|
| You can also use a doorstop to wedge a door _slightly_ open
| so it won 't close and auto-lock.
| mikewarot wrote:
| If the door has a deadbolt as well as a lock, you can use
| the deadbolt to ensure that the door _doesn 't_ auto lock
| by locking it with the door open.
| jussion_zoonist wrote:
| They are wedge shaped and usually made of rubber. You stick it
| under the door, hold it in place, then pull the door to get it
| stuck on the doorstop. Some doors also have built in door stops
| that are different- more like a kickstand on a bike.
| dwringer wrote:
| There's also the folk tradition of just cutting off an angled
| piece of scrap lumber to use.
| zach_garwood wrote:
| I suppose another folk solution is removing the pin in the arm
| of the device that automatically pulls the door closed. I had a
| high school teacher who did that.
| timw4mail wrote:
| Generally they are just a wedge-shape that gives enough
| friction at the bottom of the door so that the weight of the
| door or strength of the closing mechanism can't overcome that
| friction.
| agentultra wrote:
| If this is an interesting idea to you, check out:
| https://screenl.es
| pradn wrote:
| There's also the Indian cultural concept of `jugaad`, which
| refers to folksy hacking. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jugaad
| nuc1e0n wrote:
| I approve of this, but its hardly novel. Web browsers were
| originally intended to view flat html documents with hyperlinks
| between them. The concept of a web app is itself a 'folk'
| repurposing of technology.
|
| Another might be the way blocks in minecraft are repurposed to
| make all sorts of elaborate redstone machines such as automatic
| farms.
| mikewarot wrote:
| Also, Minecraft and other games have been used as covert
| communications channels.
| ExtraE wrote:
| Please write concisely.
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