[HN Gopher] John A Phillips
       ___________________________________________________________________
        
       John A Phillips
        
       Author : barry-cotter
       Score  : 155 points
       Date   : 2022-09-02 07:38 UTC (15 hours ago)
        
 (HTM) web link (nuclearprinceton.princeton.edu)
 (TXT) w3m dump (nuclearprinceton.princeton.edu)
        
       | ackbar03 wrote:
       | What a badass. He even has Aristotle as his middle name and his
       | company's name
        
         | jiggywiggy wrote:
         | Just shame he ends up dedicating his time to data
        
           | jamesrom wrote:
           | ... instead of nuclear bombs?
        
             | jiggywiggy wrote:
             | We have so many data companies. He clearly show ability to
             | build some "real" world applications.
        
             | capableweb wrote:
             | Instead of safety devices ("slowly moved away from creating
             | nuclear things and invented a motorcycle air bag").
             | 
             | Surely that would have a better impact on the world instead
             | of aiding political campaigns with machine learning, ads
             | and data.
             | 
             | Edit: Yeah, reading his Wikipedia page, I'm 100% sure he
             | could have spent his time better.
             | 
             | > The experience he had gained during his campaigns
             | obtaining the voter list from the state and using it for
             | campaign purposes led him [...] to found Aristotle, Inc.
             | [...] a consulting firm for political campaigns [...] It
             | specializes in combining voter lists with personal data
             | from other sources (such as income, gun ownership or church
             | attendance) and data-mining, to assist with micro-targeting
             | of specific voter groups; as of 2007, its database
             | contained detailed information about ca. 175 million U.S.
             | voters and it had about 100 employees.
        
       | danbruc wrote:
       | ... if you happen to have a critical mass of enriched Uranium [1]
       | laying around in your garage.
       | 
       | [1] Preferably not in a single lump.
        
         | m_mueller wrote:
         | isn't getting the weapons grade Uranium (or Plutonium) what is
         | most difficult about making a bomb anyways? My assumption is,
         | once a terrorist group has achieved that, and has transported /
         | smuggled it to their target, it's game over anyways. Harbor
         | towns must be particularly vulnerable to this, considering the
         | amount of shipping containers going through there...
        
           | tsimionescu wrote:
           | No, making a true atomic bomb is extremely difficult science
           | and engineering.
           | 
           | Now, a dirty bomb, which is just a conventional explosive
           | together with radioactive material - designed to spread
           | radioactive material instead of releasing the fission energy
           | into one giant explosion - is easy to create, but not that
           | much more effective than just a conventional bomb. It would
           | trigger a massive cleanup effort, and it would surely give
           | some people cancer later down the line, but it wouldn't be
           | that spectacular.
        
             | danbruc wrote:
             | No, it is not that difficult, at least if you are fine with
             | not having the most efficient weapon. You take a metal
             | pipe, put a lump of Uranium and some explosive at each end
             | and to a first approximation you are done. The USA did not
             | even test their gun type design before dropping it onto
             | Hiroshima because it was so simple that they were confident
             | that it will just work.
        
           | danbruc wrote:
           | For a simple bomb you want Uranium, Plutonium emits too many
           | neutrons which are likely to cause a small chain reaction
           | while your critical mass is in the process of forming and
           | this predetonation can then blow everything apart before a
           | proper critical mass has been formed. A gun type design where
           | you just smash two subcritical lumps of metal into each other
           | is, as I remember, nearly impossible to achieve with
           | Plutonium you can realistically produce.
           | 
           | EDIT: Interestingly another commenter says that this actually
           | was a Plutonium design.
        
           | gonzo41 wrote:
           | Extracting u238 from 235 is a hard process. Using flourine
           | gas, it requires you to turn an ore, to a metal, then to gas
           | and then back to metal. If terrorists can get that done they
           | should quit terrorism and just open a chemical plant
        
             | GTP wrote:
             | But they would not, as terrorism isn't about making money.
        
               | SideburnsOfDoom wrote:
               | Terrorism isn't about solving extremely hard chemical
               | engineering scaled process problem either.
        
               | throwaway0a5e wrote:
               | It's not about becoming a commercial pilot or truck
               | driver either but those are a means to an end.
        
               | SideburnsOfDoom wrote:
               | I'm not aware of any terrorist who actually became a
               | commercial pilot, merely those who took a few lessons
               | (1). And I think that's at the upper end of the lengths
               | that terrorists will go to: Past a certain point the low-
               | tech approaches are just way more "bang for the buck", so
               | to speak. And past a certain specialisation of skills,
               | it's way more effective to get that high-paying job and
               | donate to political causes.
               | 
               | 1) https://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/lifestyle/people/
               | sdut-g...
        
         | ddalex wrote:
         | I feel(*) it's not about the critical mass, but the critical
         | density - that's why you need strong compression (either
         | chemical explosives, or xrays from a smaller nuclear bomb) to
         | trigger the explosion (exponential runoff chain reaction).
         | 
         | So this guy figured out how to create the critical density for
         | 2k USD worth of components, which is actually the "hard" part
         | of building a bomb.
         | 
         | (*) not a nuclear physicist
        
           | nine_k wrote:
           | You need to compress not the solid chunks of metal, but the
           | gaseous / plasmatic plutonium after a few microseconds past
           | the critical point. The problem is that it emits neutrons too
           | quickly, and the thermal runaway of the critical mass happens
           | too quickly. If you do not hold the plutonium together, it
           | will just fly in all directions before enough of it has
           | reacted.
           | 
           | No static casing us string enough; a dynamic caring made of
           | highly compressed results of a conventional explosion works.
        
           | danbruc wrote:
           | You don't have to compress the material if you have enough
           | but if you can compress it, then you can achieve detonation
           | with less material.
        
             | thombat wrote:
             | But it's a plutonium design, which according to common
             | wisdom is too fissile for slow assembly but needs both
             | compression and enough inertia to stop it from exploding
             | with a very low yield.
        
               | danbruc wrote:
               | I meant in general, for Plutonium you realistically need
               | an implosion type design, but I think theoretically you
               | could even have a gun type Plutonium bomb, just making
               | clean enough Plutonium is totally uneconomical.
        
               | consp wrote:
               | And you still need a looooong barrel and a fast moving
               | plutonium part (see the thin man design on wikipedia and
               | then extrapolate from there) even creating near close
               | enough pure plutonium since economically you won't have
               | pure.
        
               | bayouborne wrote:
               | "Parsons' first order of business was the plutonium gun.
               | Because it needed a muzzle velocity of at least 3,000
               | feet per second it would have to be 17 feet long. It
               | should weigh no more than a ton, a fifth of the usual
               | weight of a gun that size, which meant it would have to
               | be machined from strong high-alloy steel. It would not
               | require rifling but needed three independently operated
               | primers to make sure it fired. Parsons arranged for the
               | Navy's gun-design section to engineer it."
               | 
               | - Richard Rhodes - The Making of the Atomic Bomb
        
               | wnkrshm wrote:
               | Can you rotate a plutonium "carousel" fast enough and
               | then make all the pieces crash into a wall, onto each
               | other...
               | 
               | Edit: Idk, something about flywheels, they can store a
               | huge amount of energy and release it very quickly.
        
               | danbruc wrote:
               | Probably not, we are talking really short timescales
               | here. The nuclear explosion is over before you can even
               | see the first crack in the housing of your bomb.
        
         | [deleted]
        
         | [deleted]
        
         | adastra22 wrote:
         | It's not hard to get uranium. You can buy it on Amazon. It is
         | enriched uranium that is hard to come by. I'm guessing the low
         | cost for this project is that he found a way for low enriched
         | uranium to go supercritical.
        
           | danbruc wrote:
           | Enriched Uranium was of course implied but I edited the
           | comment now. Another commenter mentioned that it was a
           | Plutonium design, in which case the Plutonium was almost
           | certainly not part of the bill.
        
         | thombat wrote:
         | Apparently it's a plutonium design, which is interesting
         | because if it's using implosion then the detonation timing and
         | quality of the explosives is commonly thought to be critical
         | (notably the "Fat Man" plutonium bomb was tested before being
         | dropped on Hiroshima, whereas the uranium bomb design wasn't
         | all-up tested before Nagasaki as it was held to be obviously
         | reliable)
        
           | mjfl wrote:
           | I mean if you are starting from plutonium and assuming it's
           | gonna cost $2k you are lying to yourself. I can only
           | imagine... "Step 1. buy 5 kg of plutonium for $1k".... I
           | think plutonium is 4 mil per kilogram according to google.
        
           | narag wrote:
           | It seems you have the names and cities reversed.
        
             | danbruc wrote:
             | Hiroshima / 1945-08-06 / Little Boy / gun type Uranium /
             | untested
             | 
             | Nagasaki / 1945-08-09 / Fat Man / implosion type Plutonium
             | / tested with Trinity 1945-07-16
        
           | dilyevsky wrote:
           | which means that's even harder to come by bc unlike uranium
           | there's no naturally occurring plutonium on Earth
        
           | topynate wrote:
           | I imagine that between the '40s and '70s many of the really
           | hard problems became a lot easier. E.g. using solid-state
           | electronics for the timing, modelling shaped charges as a
           | textbook exercise rather than a research problem, etc. What
           | surprises me is that he managed to get a dirt-cheap
           | initiator.
        
             | alfiedotwtf wrote:
             | > using solid-state electronics for the timing
             | 
             | Curious... is timing actually that big of a deal when
             | you've already got critical mass? What would happen if you
             | just dropped one half critical mass from 1m above to the
             | other half?
        
               | MertsA wrote:
               | With an implosion type bomb you need to make sure that
               | the shockwave from the explosives hits the plutonium pit
               | all around it almost simultaneously. If there was a
               | portion where the explosive shockwave was delayed then
               | the forces on the rest of the pit are going to tend to
               | "squish" it out towards the portion where the explosion
               | hasn't hit it yet. This asymmetrical compression means
               | now you don't get the ideal compressed sphere so now
               | while it's still going to reach criticality, it's going
               | to be blasted apart with much less of the fissile
               | material being fissioned. A great real world example of
               | why timing is so critical is the first North Korean
               | nuclear bomb test.
               | 
               | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_North_Korean_nuclear_t
               | est...
               | 
               | They had a yield of less than a kiloton. Obviously way
               | greater than conventional explosives but it should have
               | been an order of magnitude more powerful.
               | 
               | In order for the explosives to form that crucial
               | explosive lense you need detonation across numerous
               | points on the outside simultaneously so you need a
               | detonator that's extremely consistent on timing so a
               | simple resistive detonator with some primary explosives
               | packed around a filament is not going to be effective.
               | The method of choice is an exploding bridgewire design.
               | Basically you have a thin wire and you pass enough
               | current through it to vaporize the wire so quickly that
               | the wire itself generates the initial shockwave as it
               | gets turned into plasma. The rest of the explosive lense
               | is just two different types of explosive with different
               | propagation velocities. The two are combined with a
               | parabolic (or hyperbolic, I forget off the top of my
               | head) face between the two layers so that the explosion
               | that started from a single point goes from convex to
               | concave so it hits the outside of the pit all at the same
               | time.
               | 
               | If you simply dropped a half-critical mass onto another
               | and it was prompt critical then yes, it would explode,
               | but with not nearly as much energy being released as a
               | proper nuclear weapon.
        
               | smilespray wrote:
               | It would preignite and fizzle. No nuclear yield, but a
               | pile of radioactive stuff.
        
               | alfiedotwtf wrote:
               | ah, ok thanks for that.
               | 
               | Even though OP had their research taken away, I wonder
               | how long it will be before you could simply ask GPT-3 how
               | to make a nuke for under $2k
        
             | manholio wrote:
             | Maybe he designed a geometry that can achieve the required
             | implosion speeds with slow, easily available explosives ex.
             | AN, KN, AP etc. The size of the device (a container) seems
             | to suggest this.
             | 
             | The actual initiation is the easy part and would have been
             | easy in the 70s, exploding wires that are subjected to a
             | number of kilo Ameperes by some kind of avalanche, solid
             | state switch.
        
               | topynate wrote:
               | I meant a modulated neutron initiator, not the explosive
               | detonator. India was still using vapour deposition of
               | polonium to make theirs, around the same time. I'm no
               | engineer but that sounds like it costs a lot more than
               | $2000.
        
               | Xx25 wrote:
               | HN never ceases to surprise! I am really curious how you
               | happen to know such details about India's nuclear bomb.
        
               | danbruc wrote:
               | The internet probably. [1]
               | 
               | [1]
               | https://nuclearweaponarchive.org/India/IndiaSmiling.html
        
               | baybal2 wrote:
        
               | [deleted]
        
             | atemerev wrote:
             | The cheap initiator is a solved problem since 1989.
        
               | topynate wrote:
               | Yeah, we've got better at making neutrons since 1970.
               | Mostly this is a good thing!
        
               | thombat wrote:
               | Since his design dates from 1976, you reckon it would be
               | cheaper now?
        
         | madaxe_again wrote:
         | Or you can just buy a (literal) boatload of smoke detectors
         | (americium) and medical waste (curium) and make an americium
         | bomb - or use a neutron gun to transmute your americium into
         | plutonium via curium.
        
           | danbruc wrote:
           | The last time someone was going down that road it did not end
           | too well.
        
         | oxfordmale wrote:
         | ....and you don't mind being lifted out of bed at 3am by the
         | security services in your country, face a lengthy interrogation
         | and a potential prison sentence.
        
       | bluelightning2k wrote:
       | We need ctrl+Z for inventions.
        
         | m_mueller wrote:
         | Consider the potential unintended consequences of de-inventing
         | the bomb. The cold war would probably have been hot in this
         | case.
        
           | hackerlight wrote:
           | Missing the point. If lone wolf terrorists have access to
           | engineered viruses or atomic bombs, that's bad in a unique
           | way, because there's probably going to be >= 1 unhinged
           | people who will use it, and all you need is 1.
           | 
           | If we're dealing with a world where only _states_ can access
           | the tech, the probability that  >= 1 state will be
           | sufficiently unhinged to use it is far lower.
           | 
           | We will eventually need a metaphorical CTRL+Z on tech,
           | probably through government power and maybe world government.
           | The fragility of us as organisms is about constant, but tech
           | is going to keep getting better and cheaper.
        
             | schiffern wrote:
             | Lone wolf terrorists wouldn't result in annihilating ~every
             | city on Earth, but state actors might.
             | 
             | One nuclear bombing is bad. 1,000 nuclear bombings is
             | worse. Risk = probability x outcome.
             | 
             | It's not a choice between only state actors having access
             | vs only lone wolf terrorists. The issue of nuclear
             | disarmament is choosing between states + terrorists (the
             | status quo) vs only terrorists.
        
               | hackerlight wrote:
               | Correct when it comes to present day nukes, maybe not if
               | we're talking engineered viruses or some as yet
               | undiscovered weapon. Anyway, I think the point stands
               | that there's significant novel risks posed if individuals
               | of the future are capable of destroying cities if they
               | feel like it, and there will unfortunately need to be a
               | paradigm shift around privacy and government involvement
               | if that day comes.
        
               | schiffern wrote:
               | Perhaps the Great Filter is, "are you smart enough, _as a
               | species_ , to put the (various) genies back in the
               | (various) bottles?"
               | 
               | Different genies call for different bottles, naturally.
        
             | nine_k wrote:
             | We don't have a Ctrl-Z, but we have a sort of a pause
             | button. Non-proliferation agreements, IEAE inspections,
             | bans on selling certain products that are key enablers of
             | production of atomic weapons.
             | 
             | With viruses, it's a bit harder, medical work us hard to
             | distinguish from weapons work.
        
               | hackerlight wrote:
               | This is again referring to the current state of affairs
               | and therefore misses the point. These controls work for
               | now because such tech is expensive and difficult. A
               | future where that's not the case isn't so unlikely.
        
         | amelius wrote:
         | It's either that or ctrl+Z for humanity.
        
         | LargoLasskhyfv wrote:
         | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invention_Secrecy_Act
         | 
         | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Born_secret
        
         | quickthrower2 wrote:
         | Well
         | 
         | > Phillip's work was confiscated by the FBI
         | 
         | But that is probably more of a ctrl+Z in the sense of "pause
         | process"
        
       | NavinF wrote:
       | >Phillip's professor has said that the design would likely work,
       | but his design was not actually built
       | 
       | Ok so it's not really $2k nor is it an atom bomb.
        
         | highwaylights wrote:
         | err... good?
        
         | imdsm wrote:
         | I'm not sure if I follow. It was a design for an A bomb that
         | would cost $2k, ergo, a $2k A bomb. Obviously have to adjust
         | for time and inflation.
        
           | thombat wrote:
           | It's like a $5 meal kit for a "BBQ meat feast" that has the
           | recipe, spices, but doesn't include the meat. So once you've
           | visited the specialist butcher and spent a lot more money,
           | now you have the $5 feast.
        
             | blackoil wrote:
             | The research was not sold for 2k. It was expected BOM for
             | ingredients listed in the recipe.
        
               | thombat wrote:
               | If this paper (that none of us can ever see) really
               | included the plutonium in that BOM then it would be
               | interesting to know how he derived a price for it, since
               | it's not really a openly traded commodity.
        
               | topynate wrote:
               | Funny enough, Pu-238 was on the market at one point (with
               | plenty of restrictions). It was used to power pacemakers.
               | It's still used for spacecraft.
               | 
               | I'm not sure how expensive it was in the '70s but it is
               | very expensive now. American production is supposed to be
               | scaling up, but only to about 1.5 kg a year.
        
               | bookofjoe wrote:
               | https://osrp.lanl.gov/pacemakers.shtml
        
               | thombat wrote:
               | But Pu-239 is presumably the stuff for this hobby
               | project? The one-click price for that is hard to find,
               | even if you bring your own take-out container.
        
               | topynate wrote:
               | Yes, I was looking for a point of comparison. Pu-239 is
               | probably also quite expensive, as both isotopes are
               | prepared by using a reactor to irradiate stuff. Only way
               | I can see a "$2k" cost as relevant is if it's the cost to
               | someone who's already acquired the nuclear material.
        
           | arethuza wrote:
           | I'd love to see the BOM for that.
        
             | LightG wrote:
             | Badam tsk.
        
       | LightG wrote:
       | So I can cosplay as Raven out of Snowcrash ... for real!?
        
       | deepstack wrote:
       | The real question is every human being have ability to have
       | create these kind of bomb, I can see civilisation can be wiped
       | out in an instance at our current level of
       | mental/psychological/spiritual maturity.
        
       | atemerev wrote:
       | Nuclear simulations are my hobby, and I have a few pet projects
       | in the area. It is impossible to build a bona fide nuclear device
       | for $2k (it is possible to build a dirty bomb with this budget,
       | but it is not interesting in any way).
       | 
       | To achieve sustainable prompt criticality, you need high-quality
       | starting material with low spontaneous fission, and a fast
       | assembly (microseconds). "Gun-type" assembly is not used anymore
       | even by new nuclear programs, as it is very inefficient (and
       | still requires quite a lot of precision engineering). With
       | implosion assembly, you need to learn quite a lot about shock
       | compression, numerical simulations of detonations, and again it
       | requires some precise engineering. "A nuclear bomb is like a
       | half-ton Swiss watch", as somebody have said.
       | 
       | I believe it is possible to build a nuclear device from scratch,
       | but you need a few years, explosion testing rigs and radiography
       | equipment, a team of engineers and physicists, and a few millions
       | budget. If you don't have starting material, it will be much more
       | expensive.
        
         | varjag wrote:
         | $2k in 1978 money. More like 15k now!
        
           | floodle wrote:
           | I get $9,088.22 on an online inflation calculator. Although I
           | do wonder whether uranium is included in the consumer price
           | inflation index!
        
             | varjag wrote:
             | I prefer to compare it to other industrial products.
             | 
             |  _1973 Ford F-100 (Sixth Generation): $2,889 - $17,387.85_
             | 
             | https://www.thedrive.com/news/34333/heres-how-much-the-
             | ford-...
             | 
             | Tho of course the end of decade added up to the inflation..
        
               | the_gipsy wrote:
               | So would we also get an H-bomb then? Because a 2022 car
               | is much, much more technologically advanced than a 1973
               | one.
        
               | atemerev wrote:
               | Thermonuclear devices require complicated X-ray
               | reflection modeling, ablation modeling, and some other
               | very specialized stuff which barely even have open source
               | libraries for this. There are some, still.
        
         | Nokinside wrote:
         | The only step that takes time and space is creating enough
         | highly enriched uranium for the bomb. You need few hundred or
         | thousand centrifuges running a some time.
         | 
         | I have a friend who is nuclear physicist working for the
         | nuclear proliferation issues in international organization.
         | According to him, every country would do modern boosted fission
         | weapon as their first nuke, and it can take less than year when
         | you have easy access to experts and modern machines. Few
         | subcritical tests (easy to hide) are needed to verify that
         | everything works, numerical simulations do the rest.
         | 
         | Boosted fission weapon is still considered a fission weapon,
         | but it uses fusion to boost the yield. You need a breeder
         | reactor or small particle accelerator to make the necessary
         | tritium but basically anyone can do it. Including North Korea.
        
           | atemerev wrote:
           | More like a few tens of thousands (if not hundreds of
           | thousands) centrifuges. Anyway, states like Iran go for the
           | uranium way only because enrichment plants can be hidden and
           | work underground, unlike plutonium production facilities
           | which require open space and a lot of running water.
        
         | dTal wrote:
         | >"Gun-type" assembly is not used anymore even by new nuclear
         | programs
         | 
         | How can you assert this with such confidence?
        
           | atemerev wrote:
           | Because A.Q. Khan and other practitioners have shown that
           | even if you have weapon-grade enriched uranium, it is better
           | to work out a (relatively) crude implosion device, and it
           | will still work better than gun-type.
        
           | boomboomsubban wrote:
           | From Wikipedia
           | 
           | >There are currently no known gun-type weapons in service:
           | advanced nuclear weapon states tended to abandon the design
           | in favor of the implosion-type weapons, boosted fission
           | weapons, and thermonuclear weapons
           | 
           | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun-type_fission_weapon
           | 
           | It seems like clearly the inferior method, the USSR never
           | even bothered with them.
        
           | smilespray wrote:
           | Not OP. Gun-type assemblies use uranium and are very wasteful
           | in terms of fissile material. State-run nuclear programs have
           | all gone for implosion designs, even North Korea.
        
       | rawoke083600 wrote:
       | Somewhere / everywhere in the basements of governments, there are
       | a lot of "topic/word filters" alarms going off :D
        
       | eterevsky wrote:
       | Is it actually possible to buy or produce enough fissile material
       | with just $2k? What would it be? Uranium-235?
        
       | etiam wrote:
       | I've been trying occasionally for years to recover a piece of
       | interview where the interviewee was musing on the consequences
       | and handling of someone inventing an atomic bomb well within
       | reach of possession for common citizens.
       | 
       | The comment was roughly that it would be an outstanding technical
       | achievement and probably worthy of major awards, but of course
       | that's not what we'd do. More likely we'd burn the designs, lock
       | the inventor up and throw away the key.
       | 
       | It seems, given this post, that it was not literally accurate,
       | but I still find it a wonderful illustration of how much
       | technology is _not_ morally neutral and can lend itself more or
       | less readily to constructive or destructive purposes.
       | 
       | Really wish I could find it again, or at least attribute
       | properly.
        
         | swarnie wrote:
         | > More likely we'd burn the designs, lock the inventor up and
         | throw away the key.
         | 
         | Which is depressing since nuclear armed nations dont get
         | invaded or subjugated. Arguably the inventor should be given
         | the noble peace prize every year going forwards.
        
           | etiam wrote:
           | Well, some sort of Nobel prize may have been mentioned in the
           | awards reasoning, but the premise in this case is more in the
           | spirit of '640 kilotons ought to be enough for anybody'...
           | 
           | Nuclear armed private citizens may not get invaded or
           | subjugated either, yet it's hard to see that the home atomics
           | revolution would make us collectively safer on the whole.
        
         | midoridensha wrote:
         | >but of course that's not what we'd do. More likely we'd burn
         | the designs, lock the inventor up and throw away the key.
         | 
         | Which is exactly what we _should_ do (in fact, the inventor
         | shouldn 't be locked up, he should be "disappeared"), if we
         | want to avoid horrible destruction.
         | 
         | I really think this kind of thing might be the answer to the
         | Fermi Paradox: Just imagine if any idiot could easily construct
         | not just any bomb, but a doomsday bomb that destroys the whole
         | planet. The planet wouldn't last long, because sooner or later
         | some mentally ill person is going to build one and set it off.
        
           | checkyoursudo wrote:
           | You could just offer (with the alternatives maybe making it a
           | "can't refuse") to put the inventor to work doing something
           | more benign and pay them for their skills. You could even let
           | them do side projects like these at the lab so they get to
           | scratch that itch.
           | 
           | Not everyone needs to be disappeared.
        
           | sawyna wrote:
           | If we carefully think about it, someone is going to do it
           | judging from the fact that the person did it purely from
           | textbook based information. I'd rather think it's better to
           | identify ways to build such things and prevent wide scale
           | adoption in a reasonable way. Locking up people and burying
           | the evidence is a short term solution. Building ways of
           | resilience and to be able to thwart or diffuse such bombs or
           | to make laws which make it harder to extract raw materials
           | seems a good long term solution to think about.
        
             | midoridensha wrote:
             | >I'd rather think it's better to identify ways to build
             | such things and prevent wide scale adoption in a reasonable
             | way.
             | 
             | But how do you do that? Suppose some new physics are
             | discovered, and this makes it trivially easy to build a
             | doomsday bomb using readily-available materials that simply
             | can't be restricted.
             | 
             | >Locking up people and burying the evidence is a short term
             | solution.
             | 
             | Unfortunately, yes: if it gets to my scenario above, it's
             | probably just a matter of time.
             | 
             | >Building ways of resilience and to be able to thwart or
             | diffuse such bombs or to make laws which make it harder to
             | extract raw materials seems a good long term solution to
             | think about.
             | 
             | Again, in my scenario, anyone with half a brain can easily
             | build the doomsday bomb using stuff from the grocery store.
             | We're not talking about plutonium here, we're talking about
             | very common materials. How do you stop the world from being
             | destroyed?
        
           | 0x_rs wrote:
           | You could deal with them that way, sure. But every other
           | person after them will learn not to divulge it and take the
           | best offer from other countries (submission mentions offers
           | from France and Pakistan for Phillips) and give it to them,
           | because you're not going to reach a worldwide consensus on
           | "let's get rid of every person that develops X theoretical
           | doomsday device" and others will want that edge. This seems
           | so shortsighted it'd do well together with the vitrum flexile
           | story. Just like engineers after WWII, during and after the
           | Cold War, you'd want to give them a comfortable position
           | using their talent for something more productive than
           | developing military-purposes missiles. I'd be more worried
           | about biochemical warfare anyway, I'm surprised there hasn't
           | been any major attack with water supply as a vector.
        
             | Xx25 wrote:
             | Why bother with water supply when you can use the air flow
             | :(
        
         | danbruc wrote:
         | I think I also remember that interview or maybe a YouTube video
         | about it. Something like what would we do if someone discovered
         | that you can put sand and magnets into a microwave with the
         | plate rotating counterclockwise and it goes gigantic boom. Have
         | a look at the Veritasium YouTube channel, I have very vague
         | memories that it might have been there. Or maybe Vsouce or
         | Kurzgesagt.
         | 
         | EDIT: The Vulnerable World Hypothesis [1] with the Easy Nukes
         | thought experiment. And this a TED talk with the author [2] and
         | probably what I watched.
         | 
         | [1] https://nickbostrom.com/papers/vulnerable.pdf
         | 
         | [2] https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=JrjjOGI6YB4
        
           | bmacho wrote:
           | I am afraid that current AI models _are_ the black balls. For
           | example it is now close to impossible to verify anything,
           | even that whether the Russians nuked half of the country or
           | not. (It is somehow doable with trusted chains, but can you
           | _really_ trust them?)
           | 
           | Also I suspect that hacking AI will be much more powerful
           | than any hacking with hand soon.
        
             | bob1029 wrote:
             | I wouldn't argue the _current_ models are, but we are
             | definitely up to our elbow in cookie jar at the moment.
        
       | nathias wrote:
       | too bad, he could have build one for himself and drive it around
       | on a motorcycle and become a sovereign individual
        
       | temptemptemp111 wrote:
        
       | thomasjudge wrote:
       | I remember reading his book when I was a kid. Amusing read, but
       | he & his roomie/coauthor come across a little tech-bro-y
       | 
       | https://www.amazon.com/Mushroom-bomb-John-Aristotle-Phillips...
        
         | throwaway81523 wrote:
         | I also read that book and thought it was pretty good (a few
         | small parts were cringy). Tech bros weren't really a thing
         | then, or at any rate I didn't mind it at the time. The linked
         | page, which I hadn't seen before and is about what he is doing
         | now: well THAT seems bro-y. Oh well.
        
       | klabb3 wrote:
       | > Phillip's work was confiscated by the FBI
       | 
       | Typical government overreach. If you live in a rural area you
       | can't rely on the government for nuclear defense. How are they
       | supposed to defend themselves without nukes of their own?
        
         | philshem wrote:
         | I get it. Thank you.
        
       | janmo wrote:
       | The real nuclear terrorist threat comes from nuclear power
       | plants, they are way less secure than governments want you to
       | believe they are.
       | 
       | As we now know that they go boom once there is no more cooling,
       | which occurs if there is a power outage (with failure of the
       | backup diesel generators) or if there is a leak in the
       | waterpipes.
        
         | junon wrote:
         | This is a complete oversimplification and dismissal of the feat
         | of engineering that goes into nuclear power plants.
        
           | titoCA321 wrote:
           | These plants also have armed security and other physical and
           | electronic deterrents along with engineering personnel to
           | respond to different crisis.
        
       | agmz wrote:
       | Another example indicating that The Great Filter is likely
       | technological - I reckon most species have the technological
       | capability for a few rogue individual to wipe them out completely
       | before they have the capability to become truly multiplanetary,
       | and therefore hedged
        
       | bjarneh wrote:
       | > and was even approached by both France and Pakistan making
       | offers to buy his research
       | 
       | Probably quite a few others as well...
        
         | thombat wrote:
         | Those were the countries offering to buy. In his position I'd
         | be fearing offers of "non-financial inducements"
        
           | tsimionescu wrote:
           | Given the topic, you could almost call it "payment in
           | kind"...
        
       | alkonaut wrote:
       | If you just want a bad atomic bomb, isn't it enough to put 2
       | chunks of fissile (enough) material at either end of a very thick
       | steel tube and shoot them together using explosives? The question
       | is how you use $2k to buy or produce the fissile material,
       | because if the BOM was really $2k including "weapons grade"
       | fissile material then the interesting question is how to get the
       | fissile material that cheaply.
       | 
       | If the BOM is $2k _excluding_ the fissile material then... is
       | that really surprising? I thought crude bomb designs were pretty
       | easy to create if you have no interest in maximizing yield or
       | minimizing how dirty the bomb gets?
        
         | rich_sasha wrote:
         | No expert here; apparently this requires more / more enriched
         | uranium. Since enriching uranium seems to be the bottleneck,
         | this is suboptimal. This is why the Hiroshima bomb worked like
         | this, but the second one, in Nagasaki, worked by compressing
         | plutonium with explosives instead.
         | 
         | There's also the question of "compactness". If you want to
         | carry the bomb by plane, say, it has to be light-ish and
         | compact-ish, which this design lends itself less to. If you
         | want to shoot it up in a rocket, this is even more important.
        
           | hackernewds wrote:
           | The article states it was the size of a U-Haul. Nothing
           | flight-worthy
        
             | ascar wrote:
             | No it mentions "the actual bomb would fit in the size of a
             | U-haul trailer".
        
             | ok_dad wrote:
             | Fat Man was 20k pounds, and about the size of a large
             | automobile.
        
             | HeyLaughingBoy wrote:
             | Depends on the airplane you drive it into.
        
         | mikkom wrote:
         | Note that the paper is from 1976. $2000 at 1976 is totally
         | different in value than it's today.
        
         | Bakary wrote:
         | I've noticed that HN is very critical of young prodigies. It's
         | hilarious that we are doing something similar here but this
         | time with nuclear weapons insteasd of regular science fair
         | fare.
        
         | mannykannot wrote:
         | This would not work with plutonium, which is what Philip's
         | "Nagasaki-like" (Wikipedia) design apparently used. The gun
         | design does not create the critical configuration fast enough
         | to prevent it 'fizzling' - the assembly blowing itself apart
         | before the chain reaction has progressed far enough for a
         | nuclear-scale explosion. Instead, you need an implosion device.
         | This is much more challenging, requiring explosive lenses
         | (precisely-shaped charges), multiple precisely-timed
         | detonators, and an initiator that will produce a burst of
         | neutrons just as the explosive's shock waves reach the center
         | of the fissile assembly.
         | 
         | I am sure you are right, though, that the bill of materials did
         | not include the fissile material.
         | 
         | Anyone surprised by Phillip's result was perhaps assuming that
         | it would take something like the Manhattan Project to
         | independently design a bomb.
        
           | xhkkffbf wrote:
           | >> perhaps assuming that it would take something like the
           | Manhattan Project to independently design a bomb.
           | 
           | It's always easier to replicate someone else's work,
           | especially when no one knew if it could be done in the first
           | place.
        
         | dynm wrote:
         | Yeah, probably the most difficult part of the entire process of
         | making a bomb is enrichment. The uranium in uranium ore is
         | 99.3% (useless) U-238 and only 0.7% (useful) U-235. These are
         | chemically identical, so the only thing you have to go on is
         | the slight difference in weight, thus the _extremely_ difficult
         | methods like centrifuges. (You need to build a giant "cascade"
         | of them refining at different levels.) I'd say it's basically
         | impossible that he figured out a way to refine uranium for
         | $2000.
        
           | throwaway0a5e wrote:
           | > I'd say it's basically impossible that he figured out a way
           | to refine uranium for $2000.
           | 
           | I'm sure you could get the cost way down if you traded
           | throughput/time. Tub grinder vs homeowner wood chipper.
        
         | randcraw wrote:
         | According to Phillips' book, his main innovation was designing
         | the shaped charges that brought the halves of uranium/plutonium
         | together at the right rate.
         | 
         | This he achieved by calling around at Dupont (IIRC) until he
         | found someone with the knowledge, which was willingly shared.
         | (Presumably this critical info was made inaccessible after the
         | paper was graded.)
         | 
         | Freeman Dyson (who worked on the Manhattan Project and later at
         | at IAS Princeton) reviewed Phillips' design, confiding to the
         | course's professor, "Yes, this should work." Phillips' term
         | paper was promptly classified. His only other feedback was to
         | receive an A in the course.
        
         | lr1970 wrote:
         | > If you just want a bad atomic bomb, isn't it enough to put 2
         | chunks of fissile (enough) material at either end of a very
         | thick steel tube and shoot them together using explosives?
         | 
         | Linear (gun-type) fission design was tried at Los Alamos in
         | early days of Manhattan project and was abandoned in favor of
         | spherical implosion device [0].
         | 
         | [0]
         | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_weapon#Fission_weapons
        
       ___________________________________________________________________
       (page generated 2022-09-02 23:02 UTC)