[HN Gopher] The rise of 'stealerships' and the shady economics o...
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The rise of 'stealerships' and the shady economics of car buying
Author : senthil_rajasek
Score : 63 points
Date : 2022-08-30 13:19 UTC (2 days ago)
(HTM) web link (www.npr.org)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.npr.org)
| germinalphrase wrote:
| Craigslist. Facebook marketplace. Where else do people look for
| used car listings?
| everdrive wrote:
| I've been buying cars second-hand from private parties for my
| last three cars. It's been a great experience. Everyone's been
| honest so far, and I've never had unreasonable problems with any
| of the cars.
|
| I'm not sure I'd ever go to a dealership again. They make things
| so painful, and wring as much money and stress out of you as
| possible. There seems to be zero benefit for the consumer.
| toomanyrichies wrote:
| I anticipate moving to Los Angeles within the next 12 months
| and am absolutely dreading the inevitability of needing to buy
| a car. I haven't needed a car since 2007 since I've lived in a
| series of major cities with excellent train/bus/subway systems.
| Every single day, I've said a silent prayer of thanks that I
| haven't had to pay for gas or insurance / sit in traffic / deal
| with road rage (mine or that of others) / worry about someone
| keying my car or stealing my catalytic converter.
|
| Reading the comments here about peoples' experiences at
| dealerships, I kept thinking "Do I really need to move to LA?
| Is there any other way I can accomplish my goals?" I'm glad to
| see you've had success dealing with private parties. This is
| absolutely the way I will go when it comes time for me to bite
| the bullet and buy a car.
| gamblor956 wrote:
| Depending on where you live in LA, and your interests, you
| may not need a car. LA's public rail system can get you to
| Downtown, Pasadena, Long Beach, Inglewood, Redondo/Manhattan
| Beach, Santa Monica, Culver City, and Hollywood/Universal
| City. The bus system can get you to 95% of the county. The
| commuter rail system can get you out to Ventura, San
| Bernardino, Riverside, and Orange County.
|
| I know a number of NYC and Chicago transplants who moved to
| LA without cars and get along fine. Pre-COVID I commuted to
| work by rail for several years, and occasionally take the
| rail to work now.
| mxuribe wrote:
| Well, LA has some nice weather...Have you considered maybe
| looking into a three-wheeler like a Can Am Spyder
| [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Can-Am_motorcycles]? (As
| someone who is a big fan of motorcycles, I used to recommend
| folks to consider the wonderful life of 2 wheels, but i
| understand not everyone would be into it...plus LA traffic
| might make conventional motorcycles risky for new riders.) Of
| course, I'm assuming that an alternative like that a three-
| wheeler might be cheaper, or more obtainable (either new or
| used). Then again, if your job is not far from where you will
| live, could a bicycle fit the need - either electric or
| conventional?
| kylehotchkiss wrote:
| Buy the car before you move. Southern California dealers are
| greedy.
|
| You'll probably have to pay the difference between sales tax
| in your current state and CA tax when you register it in CA
| though.
| defterGoose wrote:
| LA has one of the best (if not _the_ best) used car markets
| in the world. Prices are admittedly high for any vehicle
| right now, but if you do your research and are ready to jump
| when things pop up on CL, you can never overpay for a car
| again here.
| 14 wrote:
| The only benefit to the consumer is you can go to a location
| and see several different car models at the same place. If
| buying used you need to go to some person's house at a time
| that works for the seller and then hope the car is insured and
| if a big purchase price hope that they are not currently
| driving it so that you can take it to your mechanic to have it
| checked out. But other then that the dealerships have no
| benefits in my opinion. The multi point inspections they do are
| basically a joke. The person doing it is some 10 month
| mechanical school graduate tasked with the jobs that don't make
| the company any money but that they are forced to do like
| warranty work and inspections. You would be much better off
| taking it to a mechanic that knows what he is doing and is
| being paid by you to find issues. I am very thankful I am a
| backyard mechanic and can buy used with much more confidence
| then the average buyer. I can also buy cars with known issues
| and fix them. The last time I was at a dealership was with a
| friend and she was so set on a used car from them. I tried to
| convince her to buy elsewhere but she just had to have it that
| day. As you can guess they knew this and took advantage of it.
| jandrese wrote:
| My last two car purchases were off of Craigslist. So far they
| have both been good. But I did have to walk away from a few bum
| deals to get those cars. That said, the last time I tried to
| use a dealership they weren't exactly honest[1] so it's just
| part of the process of buying a used car.
|
| [1] They insisted the car was in perfect shape and passed their
| 87 point inspection even though it was listed as totaled due to
| flood damage when I ran the Carfax. Plus it had this weird
| thing where it was listed as garaged in New York but titled in
| Florida and it seemed like nothing on the report matched up.
| That and the VIN was obscured by the black goop they used to
| glue the windshield on when someone replaced it, I had to use
| the VIN from the door. This was back around 2006-2007, so maybe
| the situation has improved, but I kind of doubt it.
| tehwebguy wrote:
| This is the way!
|
| When buying used from a private seller you really can find
| almost anything you want at a substantial discount if your
| timeline is not urgent.
| Ekaros wrote:
| Here I think it makes sense for newish cars. Just check that
| there is some warranty left and it has full service history.
|
| I would personally avoid private for cheap cars or those that
| transact often. As you might end up dealing with "jobbers" that
| is unofficial resellers.
| BeetleB wrote:
| On the contrary, I only buy older used cars - the savings on
| a car with some warranty isn't near as much. I've always had
| good luck with merely taking a car I'm considering to a
| mechanic to get it checked out. One day the luck will run
| out, but whatever that will cost will come nowhere near the
| amount I've saved over the years.
| jandrese wrote:
| The term I learned was "curbstoners". Learning how to spot
| them is important when buying off of Craigslist or the like.
| cycomanic wrote:
| During my studies when I was overseas we had a seminar on how to
| buy a car in NZ. The guy was absolutely awesome, he told us about
| a lot of the tricks employed by dealers from subtle things like
| mirrors where you are supposed to park the car (you see yourself
| in the mirror) to things like working you with two people (it's
| much harder to resist 2 people arguing with you, also why you
| should never go by yourself). He also gave some good tips: go at
| certain days of the month when they are about to get new stock
| in, try to find the underperforming salesperson (they get away
| with worse deals, because the others feel sorry for them), give
| the impression you are planning to buy for much less than you
| really want, because they always try to get you over your budget.
|
| I managed to use those tricks when I bought my first car. Managed
| to get it at about 40% of the sticker price (used car). Haven't
| been as successful since though.
| fleddr wrote:
| This is why when you buy a car, you go in with a person that
| knows cars. Or consult them whilst you browse online.
|
| Be frugal with options/extras. Don't show excitement. If you're
| poor at negotiating, try the brute force approach of an exit.
| Doesn't matter what the offer is, just laugh, mumble something,
| and exit the venue. They'll normally stop you. Don't bite at the
| second offer either, they were already taking that into account.
| Hassle some more.
|
| This assumes a market where the seller has a very strong
| incentive to sell, so not when there's lots of buyers.
|
| Have bullet proof facts ready, like prices for the same car
| elsewhere. In short, come prepared.
| chrisseaton wrote:
| Why engage in a back-and-forth with these people? Configure the
| car you want on the manufacturer website, note the list price,
| then send the configuration you want to a few dealers in your
| area and ask them to quote for delivering you that car. Accept
| the best quote. If they want to debate you about it, ask them to
| either quote you or forget it. There are even apps which enforce
| this - they get to quote you but can't communicate otherwise.
| criddell wrote:
| I did this in 2017 and none of the dealers I contacted would
| play ball. Every one of them told me I would need to come in.
| When I went in, they couldn't tell me the final price until
| they knew if I would buy a service contract, if I would be
| financing through them and if so, what my credit score was,
| etc...
|
| I ended up leaving with the car I wanted and paid about $500
| more than I wanted to but they wore me down.
|
| I think if you buy through Costco you can avoid some of the
| bullshit, but you do pay more than you probably have to. It
| might be worth it though just to have an easier experience.
| groby_b wrote:
| The words "Meh, if you can't do this, I'm probably fine with
| a used one. CarMax doesn't haggle. Can you make a quote, or
| am I leaving" usually get them to move.
|
| Right now, some might balk. But you know what? That
| salesperson cares about their quota, and if your purchases
| pushes them over today's goal number, they twitch. Because
| the inevitable next buyer tomorrow isn't going to get them
| over the quota they need to meet today.
|
| And if your dealership really plays hardball? Move on to the
| next one. Or buy used from a place that doesn't haggle.
|
| The way to lose this is if you want a specific
| year/make/model - they'll get you. If your entire attitude is
| "anything within that set of parameters", it's much harder
| for them.
| crazygringo wrote:
| Seriously. If they have a glut of the model they can't sell
| enough of then they'll probably play along -- but otherwise
| they know you know what you're doing and they'll make very
| little money on you, and they'd prefer to make more money
| with somebody else. They're maximizing profit, not number of
| cars sold, and for many cars it's supply that is the limiting
| factor, not demand.
| [deleted]
| techsupporter wrote:
| > but otherwise they know you know what you're doing and
| they'll make very little money on you
|
| This has the air of "That One Weird Trick" that used to
| work in the early 2010s before everyone had heard of it.
| But now that it's the lead paragraph in every single "how
| to buy the exact car you want, for so much less money"
| blogspam, of course it no longer works.
|
| I'm not sure why people expected it to continue when the
| entire business model of car dealerships is to turn suckers
| into money.
|
| "Having to interact with a dealership" is around number 4
| or 5 on my list of why I will never buy a car again, after
| years of not having one.
| chrisseaton wrote:
| I don't mind a market price - that's actually what I'm
| seeking they can quote me as much as they think they'll
| get from the people who haggle - I just want to avoid the
| haggle.
| qzw wrote:
| Costco seems to have suspended their car buying program. I
| tried to use it a few months ago and couldn't even get
| started. Probably no dealers near me are even participating
| in the program in such a seller's market.
| supernovae wrote:
| I purchased my Jeep Wrangler in 2018. I found the color I
| wanted Online. Pre-qualified with my bank. Contacted the
| internet sales address, told them I wanted the car and I'd be
| by at 6 to pick it up and they had it ready.
|
| My best car buying experience has been Tesla though. Ordered
| on the app. Put 500 down. Got a build date. Got a
| notification when it was in delivery. Added my payment info.
| Got a time to pickup car. Drove home.
| pkrotich wrote:
| I did exactly what you mentioned - many didn't play ball but
| one made an appointment with confirmed inventory. Drove 2 hours
| only to be told car I wanted "just" sold and by the way we add
| $10k to MSRP - classic bait and switch.
| pwinnski wrote:
| That's a great approach, and when there's a glut of cars
| sitting on dealer lots, you might even get responses. Right
| now, when most cars are selling for more than sticker, you
| won't. If you don't buy a car, that's fine, there are others
| who will.
| chrisseaton wrote:
| You'll get responses, just with quote that's higher - and
| that fine it's a market.
| aliqot wrote:
| This has a finite window of viability.
| qzw wrote:
| Of course, and I really look forward to the eventual auto
| dealer winter, but if you actually need a car right now
| it's a serious pain in the ass.
| aliqot wrote:
| I empathize, I hope it works out for you.
| qzw wrote:
| I appreciate it, but it's actually not bad for me
| personally. My wife wants a new car rather than need one.
| We can afford to wait but can also afford to buy now, and
| I wanted her to be happy. But I know many others are
| definitely not so fortunate.
| toss1 wrote:
| Yup, last time, I just started looking for a particular few
| cars, got by parameters down (desired trim levels, cost
| limits, etc.) and emailed requesting quotes. Most wouldn't
| play, but I found one who was just "yup, this is what we've
| got, this is how we can configure it... cost is $xyz". After
| a few rounds of email, maybe a couple tel calls, I had a
| deal, went there for the first time to pick it up. When my
| wife needed a new car in the next year or two, guess who we
| called first? Same no-hassle deal.
|
| It's a bit of a drive to get there in the adjacent state, but
| totally worth it.
|
| Edit: Also, we made deals for vehicles they had in stock, not
| custom-configured from mfgr.
| andrewmcwatters wrote:
| People said this at the height of the used car shortage. It
| still wasn't true. In my experience, suckers were buying
| Corollas at 25%+(!) over MSRP. All I had to do was go to
| another dealership.
|
| Let me put it this way: you've got the entire continental US
| you can buy a car from and shipping a vehicle coast-to-coast
| usually costs under $2,000.
|
| So, what do you think is truer? Is the market excruciatingly
| tight, or are there just a lot of people making bad purchases
| out there?
| jancsika wrote:
| > So, what do you think is truer? Is the market
| excruciatingly tight, or are there just a lot of people
| making bad purchases out there?
|
| At least for the Prius Prime someone wrote a script to grab
| the data which you can peruse[1].
|
| E.g., for 6/30/22 there were 113 LEs, 99 XLEs, and 18
| Limiteds that weren't listed as presold on that
| spreadsheet.
|
| I spot checked both by enumerating through Toyota's list of
| dealerships and emailing roughly 50 dealerships. Based on
| the response I'd say even in July only 10% of those numbers
| were actually available. And cut that in half once I let
| them know I was inquiring out of state.
|
| Average markup _over_ MSRP was probably 5k. (Outlier was
| 20k "market adjustment" :)
|
| So regardless of whether people are making bad purchases,
| the market is exceedingly tight.
|
| https://www.reddit.com/r/PriusPrime/comments/vcajy9/2022_pr
| i...
| tehwebguy wrote:
| Make sure to triple check the paperwork at the end, someone
| went viral yesterday for accidentally paying $6k over what they
| believed they were for their Toyota Corolla.
| pc86 wrote:
| You really have to _try_ not to read what you 're signing for
| something like that to happen. My fiance bought a car less
| than a year ago and the final loan price was everywhere, even
| highlighted. I've bought cars in two other states and it was
| never exactly hidden.
| analyst74 wrote:
| I also had the experience where I placed an order on ford
| website, routed it to a dealer who agreed to honor the online
| price. 5 months later, when the car was delivered onto the
| dealer lot, they wanted 10k more.
| bombcar wrote:
| Be sure to report that to Ford; they're not happy with that
| happening.
| qzw wrote:
| Until they put some teeth into their "unhappiness", forgive
| me for taking it as merely low effort PR noise. For $10k
| per car (or 30-50k on some models like the F-150
| Lightning), a dealer would be willing to incur all kinds of
| unhappiness. But if those allocations actually start
| getting cut off, they'll fall in line real fast. But Ford
| wouldn't do that because the average dealer is far more
| important to them than the average customer.
| bombcar wrote:
| Just copy your local media station, nightly news loves
| running muck-raking things about stealerships.
| qzw wrote:
| Dealerships run a lot of ads during my nightly local
| news, just saying. And if all the dealers are doing the
| same thing, it then becomes a non-story.
| kube-system wrote:
| Did you have it in writing? I would have politely reminded
| them that my state's consumer protection laws require them to
| honor it.
| awad wrote:
| Interesting - do you have the names of any of those apps?
| chrisseaton wrote:
| In the UK there is Carwow. You may not like the prices you
| get these days, but it's a market, and at least it's a take-
| it-or-leave-it price.
| qzw wrote:
| TrueCar used to be a pretty good one, and was the service
| behind Sam's Club and USAA's auto buying programs. But it's
| pretty much no longer worth the bother now. Don't know of
| anything newer that's better. Keep in mind that no app can
| work miracles in a crazy market. They all ultimately depend
| on dealers competing with each other to deliver any value,
| but dealers just haven't needed to compete in the last couple
| of years.
| qzw wrote:
| That's how it used to work (and still does for some less in
| demand/in short supply models), but if you're after something
| that's even moderately popular (most SUVs and EVs), you'll
| hardly see any replies nowadays. That was the case when trying
| to get my wife a new crossover recently. We ended up placing an
| order in person with a dealer that "only" charged MSRP without
| a bunch of crazy add-ons, albeit with an additional dealer fee
| (pure profit) of $800. But when the car showed up 3 months
| later it was missing power seats due to a supply shortage. We
| walked from the deal and are now shopping again. Fun times.
| fhrow4484 wrote:
| Just like mortgage brokers are obligated to send you an
| official, standardized "loan estimate" when you ask about a
| mortgage, dealership should have something similar with cars.
|
| Specifically: the car is only the first part, then there's
| extra warranties from dealership, financing, etc.
|
| A standardized quote that gives you the price of these optional
| items would go a long way in making the experience smooth.
|
| Private companies can solve the issues themselves (Carvana),
| but that's coming at a significant $ premium so far.
|
| The FTC rule mentioned in the article mentions this:
|
| > Require full upfront disclosure of costs and conditions: The
| proposal would require dealers to make key disclosures to
| consumers, including providing a true "offering price" for a
| vehicle that would be full price a consumer would pay,
| excluding only taxes and government fees. It would also require
| dealers to make disclosures about optional add-on fees,
| including their price and the fact that they are not required
| as a condition of purchasing or leasing the vehicle, along with
| disclosures to consumers with key information about financing
| terms.
| sidewndr46 wrote:
| If we're talking about the US, why layer on even more
| regulation to an already unnecessary industry? Just eliminate
| the dealership model & allow people to order directly from
| the manufacturer.
| LatteLazy wrote:
| In the UK, you have 28 days to change your mind and arrange
| your own financing. So for informed buyers, a common tactic
| is to agree to whatever shitty high interest loan they're
| selling to keep the sticker price down, then just call the
| loan company and cancel and pay it off with cash from the
| loan/savings you actually want to use.
| kube-system wrote:
| The same can be done in the US -- just pay it off before it
| accrues any interest.
| MerelyMortal wrote:
| Just make sure there's no prepayment fees.
| jeffwask wrote:
| I know Carvana has issues but this is why I love using it. I have
| bought and sold without all the slime of entering a dealership
| creaghpatr wrote:
| I had a wild experience on Carvana. Bought the car (used, with
| 14k miles), they were going to ship it to my local Carvana
| pickup and the day before I get a message to effect of, "Hey we
| just tried to start your car and it's not starting so we don't
| recommend you buy this car" . All fees refunded, I was confused
| but grateful, no one followed up to try and get me to buy
| another car (other than garden variety email list marketing).
| Ended up buying a friend of a friends old car for way less two
| weeks later.
| qzw wrote:
| They may have sold your car for more money to another buyer
| locally.
| bombcar wrote:
| This is exactly what happened. Or some employee decided
| they wanted it themselves.
|
| If you still had the VIN you could probably search what
| happened, heh.
| kube-system wrote:
| I don't personally understand the appeal. While some
| dealerships are certainly sketchy, I've found high-volume
| traditional dealerships to be pretty straightforward. They
| price them to sell, you pay the price that's posted on the
| sticker/website.
| oangemangut wrote:
| for me it's the archaic 'sales practices' they go through.
| The bait and switching in advertising, the us vs them dynamic
| they try to create with the sale managers, finalizing a price
| with sales and then having finance try to wring more out of
| you, or saying the price isn't possible unless x y z. I'll
| never go through that again.
| kube-system wrote:
| I've never had an issue with an a dealer honoring an ad. I
| always print it out and bring it with me. It's pretty
| illegal if they don't.
|
| Financing is financing. It's not the car. If you show up
| without knowing how you're going to pay for the car,
| well... you showed up without knowing how you're going to
| pay for the car.
|
| Yeah, they'll ask about extended warranties and such, but
| it's just a matter of saying "no" a couple of times while
| signing paperwork.
| lastofthemojito wrote:
| I know some people have had good experiences with Carvana
| (especially when they already know what they want, and said car
| that is configured just-so is halfway across the country) - but
| I hate the idea of online shopping for the test-drive phase of
| car shopping. Seeing a panoramic view of the car's interior
| isn't enough, I need to feel it.
|
| "Oh, don't worry, Carvana has a 7-day money back guarantee" -
| yeah, I don't want to have to unwind a major transaction just
| to test-drive a car. Especially if I'm trading in a car as part
| of the transaction - from what I've read if you trade in a car
| to Carvana and then decide to return the car you've purchased,
| they don't bring your old car back.
|
| I wish there was a service where you could give them say a
| hundred bucks and they'd deliver maybe your top 5 cars to your
| house to poke around and test drive. The Zappos experience
| (they encourage people to order multiple sizes to try on and
| make the returns easy) but for cars instead of shoes.
| jeffwask wrote:
| Oh... I used dealerships for the test drives. I had a price
| from Carvana on each of the models I wanted to try and I went
| around and tried them. Once, I landed on make and model. I
| gave the sales guy a chance to beat the Carvana price he
| didn't.
| jeffwask wrote:
| Additionally, if the old car is paid off and you don't need
| it for down payment you could hold on to it for the break
| in period where you can return the purchased car then just
| sell the old one on Carvana and they will just come pick it
| up.
| culturestate wrote:
| _> I wish there was a service where you could give them say a
| hundred bucks and they 'd deliver maybe your top 5 cars to
| your house to poke around and test drive._
|
| Trying to imagine the logistics of getting this done -
| profitably - within a Carvana-like model for anything _close_
| to $100 just broke my brain.
| bombcar wrote:
| Hertz has (or used to have) a "rent to own" deal with cars.
|
| You go to their lot of used cars, you poke and prod them,
| then you rent one you think you'll like for a week for a
| couple bills.
|
| If you decide to keep it, the rental cost is put against
| the purchase and you keep the car, if you don't like it you
| return and try again.
| kylehotchkiss wrote:
| The problem with buying from Hertz or any rental car
| dealership is that many people (myself included) take
| rental cars on the highway and immediately press the
| pedal to the floor to see what it can do (or how loud it
| gets). People have zero incentive to drive rental cars
| nicely and Hertz has no incentive than to do the bare
| minimum of maintenance to keep the car on the road.
| They're gonna wear out faster than a privately owned car.
|
| See Jeremy Clarkson of former Top Gear glory describe it:
| https://youtu.be/NYt9DO5WXr8?t=65
| toomanyrichies wrote:
| Is this what you're referring to?
|
| https://www.hertzcarsales.com/rent2buy.htm
| bombcar wrote:
| Yep, that's the one! Seems it's 3 days now, or 2 hours
| free.
|
| Not all locations offered it, however, but it can be
| nice.
|
| Even if you don't use it, renting the car or type of car
| you're thinking of buying can be a good strategy.
| ghaff wrote:
| They'll tend to be low-end trim models but a lot of what
| you're evaluating in a test drive isn't how the heated
| seats work. I informally did that before my recent
| purchase but mostly in terms of what I didn't what to
| buy. One vehicle I knew I didn't care much for. And
| another, which was the same as I owned, I got hadn't
| really improved in 11 years, infotainment unit
| notwithstanding.
| lastofthemojito wrote:
| I live fairly close to the cluster of car dealerships in my
| area so maybe my perception is skewed, but it doesn't seem
| crazy to me that 2 sales guys from the Honda dealer would
| drive 5 minutes to my house to drop off an Accord (and then
| go back in 1 car), 2 sales guys from the Toyota dealer
| would drive 5 minutes to my house to drop off a Camry,
| etc... Seems like they're constantly making little trips to
| pick up cars from satellite lots, drop off cars for
| maintenance, fuel up cars, etc.
|
| This might only work for dealerships within a certain
| distance of course.
|
| But right, the part about doing it profitably would
| probably require a dealership that gets a successful sales
| lead to pay a fee to such a service.
| CamperBob2 wrote:
| _I wish there was a service where you could give them say a
| hundred bucks and they 'd deliver maybe your top 5 cars to
| your house to poke around and test drive. The Zappos
| experience (they encourage people to order multiple sizes to
| try on and make the returns easy) but for cars instead of
| shoes._
|
| I think a lot of people end up using Turo for evaluation
| purposes. I'm a little surprised that no one has attempted to
| disintermediate/democratize car sales as well as rentals. If
| I had the option to buy the car I rent on Turo, that would
| scratch the itch you're referring to, wouldn't it... at least
| for the used market?
| lastofthemojito wrote:
| That's not a bad idea. I've used lensrentals.com to rent
| camera gear before, and they generally also have a price to
| keep the particular item you're renting:
| https://www.lensrentals.com/keeper
|
| That'd be a neat option on Turo - "ok, I'm looking at
| buying a Jeep - I want to test-drive one to validate this
| desire, but ideally one I could buy if I fall in love
| with".
| simonebrunozzi wrote:
| Which issues have you experienced, or know about?
| Kon-Peki wrote:
| Here's one(two?)
|
| https://www.autoblog.com/2022/07/20/carvana-illinois-
| license...
|
| PS - they've been reinstated again. Maybe.
| jeffwask wrote:
| https://seekingalpha.com/instablog/767332-clastic/5659699-ca.
| ..
| tehwebguy wrote:
| Wish they would stop clogging all the local Craigslist boards
| but at least they correctly mark them as "by dealer," making
| them easy to filter out
| roberthahn wrote:
| I purchased my current vehicle through an auto broker - for a
| fee, a description of the model/trim level, and the name of the
| dealership I want to pick the car up at (anywhere in Canada),
| they would negotiate on my behalf. Once they have a final price I
| sign off on it, and would be told the date to pick it up and make
| payment.
|
| It was a stress-free experience and I would definitely recommend
| you look into that if you really hate the idea of buying a car.
| jandrese wrote:
| I feel like car buying can always be relatively low stress if
| you're willing to just pay the sticker price. It's the haggling
| that sucks. But that means paying more for the car than you
| really need to.
|
| Some dealerships offer no-haggle pricing around here. Their
| sticker price is typically slightly lower than comparable cars
| in other dealerships, but people spend on average more for
| every car purchased at them, I think it amounted to around a
| thousand dollars or so. But that study was also from over a
| decade ago.
| Cupertino95014 wrote:
| Who goes to a dealership to buy a car anymore? In 1991 I bought
| my Miata online (I think. Maybe it was over the phone), and they
| delivered it to a dealer near me, where I just picked it up.
| Alternatives to dealers have been around forever.
| sidewndr46 wrote:
| Was this before or after Al Gore invented the internet?
| encryptluks2 wrote:
| People that can't wait 6+ months for a new car.
| guywithahat wrote:
| Well you just bought from a dealership, and what's more is that
| dealership was under no real obligation to sell to you. They
| could have accepted the car from Mazda and sold it to someone
| else.
|
| The issue this article really looks into is that we invited
| government into auto sales for some reason who required
| dealerships (among other things) be mandatory and independent,
| so when Ford released the Bronco or Maverick and they turned
| out to be popular, Ford might say "this Maverick is worth 25k"
| and then the dealership would mark it up to 40k and there was
| nothing the buyer could do about it, even if you ordered from
| Ford. Dealerships would accept your vehicle, say you need to
| pay an additional 10k, and if you don't they won't let you
| leave with the car
| Cupertino95014 wrote:
| Yeah, but that didn't happen. Those were normal times. These
| are not. Do you have some evidence that it does, nowadays?
|
| I've heard of it happening with an electric car, but those
| are in such insane demand that normal rules don't apply.
| jeffbee wrote:
| Why do people get all worked up over a difference +- a few
| hundred dollars on a very expensive purchase? When I want to buy
| a car, which I admit rarely happens, I look at the advertised
| price and if I'm willing to pay that price then I call the dealer
| and if I'm not, I don't. If the paperwork shows up with a
| different number on it then I tell them to leave, and it's their
| time, not mine, that was wasted.
|
| I just really don't get the whole haggling thing. If you want a
| lower price, wait until one is being advertised, or substitute a
| different model, or get a bicycle.
| jwilber wrote:
| It sounds like you don't purchase cars much if you think the
| price difference is only a few hundred dollars.
|
| I went to look for a car recently and, ignoring the Covid
| shortage fee increase, they added a mandatory $1200 for some bs
| paint protection and an additional $1400 for some gps anti-
| theft that would, "pay for itself with insurance savings"
| (lol).
|
| That's an additional $2600 on every car ignoring all the other
| bs they try to sneak in.
|
| Here's something fun: go look up the reviews for all
| dealerships nearby and read for yourself how many talk about
| price bait-and-switches, mandatory fees, etc.
| AnimalMuppet wrote:
| I don't like being ripped off. I don't like it whether it's a
| mugger, or a car dealership, or a bank.
|
| I also don't like being lied to. I don't like being told the
| deal is X for $Y, and finding out later that it's X for $Y +
| $Z. In fact, one of my major rules is that I don't do business
| with people who lie to me.
| gfdsgfdsf wrote:
| ive gotten 8k off of MSRP from haggling. haggling via email is
| very easy (this was in late 2020 before the car situation got
| crazy though)
| yamtaddle wrote:
| There aren't a lot of other contexts in which I can effectively
| make $500-2000 for being willing to talk to an annoying, but
| harmless, person for an hour while saying "no" a lot.
| defen wrote:
| > Why do people get all worked up over a difference +- a few
| hundred dollars on a very expensive purchase
|
| The size of the purchase shouldn't affect how worked up you get
| about a few hundred dollars of overcharge, only the regularity
| with which you make the purchase. For example let's say you buy
| a new TV and a new car every 5 years. Let's say the TV "should"
| cost $500 and the car "should" cost $25,000. Why would you be
| ok with paying $25,500 for the car but not with paying $1,000
| for the TV (or, maybe you're ok with both?)
| jeffbee wrote:
| Yes, the difference absolutely does not matter. Most people
| who own cars have experienced a big exogenous shock in
| operating costs due to fuel recently, that would have more
| than wiped out the average advantage from negotiating.
| Furthermore, the unforeseeable supply shortage greatly
| benefited existing car owners, again much more than any
| reasonable amount of haggling could have done. And other
| exogenous factors such as housing costs will have been far
| more important to the lives of car purchasers than the
| nominal prices of cars. I mean, have you ever tried to buy a
| house? That shit is crazy.
|
| The one and only way to save money on cars is to not buy
| them. The true cost of car ownership is massively, woefully
| underestimated by virtually all drivers. 1% or 2% difference
| on the nominal purchase price amounts to nothing in the big
| picture.
| BeetleB wrote:
| > Most people who own cars have experienced a big exogenous
| shock in operating costs due to fuel recently, that would
| have more than wiped out the average advantage from
| negotiating.
|
| This is a ... weird way to look at it.
|
| The increase in fuel costs affects you roughly equally
| whether you negotiated or not - so it's not at all a factor
| in the decision making process (unless simply not owning a
| car is an option). I mean, the price of goods went up a lot
| too due to rising fuel costs, but we don't consider those
| when buying a car, right?
|
| > The one and only way to save money on cars is to not buy
| them.
|
| Ah, your reasoning makes sense now. Unfortunately, not
| buying a car is not an option for many.
|
| > 1% or 2% difference on the nominal purchase price amounts
| to nothing in the big picture.
|
| I would strongly recommend taking a course (or reading a
| textbook) on engineering economics. Your way of thinking is
| precisely what they caution against. If anything, the fact
| that things have gotten quite expensive makes it more
| important to cut costs where you can.
| jeffbee wrote:
| I might agree with your last sentence but not the rest of
| it. Car owners systematically underestimate the total
| cost of ownership by ~50% (i.e. the true cost is ~2x the
| perceived cost). Under those conditions it is completely
| bizarre that buyers agonize over 1-2% of the purchase
| price. It would make sense to micromanage that purchase
| price if, and only if, the rest of your expenses are
| known and managed to very unusual accuracy.
|
| https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-020-01118-w
| BeetleB wrote:
| > Car owners systematically underestimate the total cost
| of ownership by ~50% (i.e. the true cost is ~2x the
| perceived cost).
|
| Fortunately, that's not me. I've been keeping all
| financial records for all non-cash transactions for over
| 15 years, and so I know exactly what I've spent on my car
| - fuel, repairs, addons, everything. I've posted
| breakdowns far down in my comment history (perhaps in the
| last year - not sure).
|
| What I can say: It's not even close to whatever Edmund's
| TCO calculator reports - so I'm a bit wary of these
| estimates. I'm not frugal, and I'm not a car guy, and I
| do whatever the mechanic suggests.
| ghaff wrote:
| That's one of the many biases explored by behavioral
| economics. People absolutely look at percentage premiums even
| though it's the absolute numbers that "should" matter--issues
| like fairness aside.
| BeetleB wrote:
| > Why do people get all worked up over a difference +- a few
| hundred dollars on a very expensive purchase?
|
| Because $500 lets you buy $500 worth of goods whether you are
| spending $1000 or $30000.
|
| Also, the difference can be a lot more than $500. I've known
| people to save a few thousand dollars.
|
| > I just really don't get the whole haggling thing. If you want
| a lower price, wait until one is being advertised
|
| I waited till too long to learn how to negotiate, and once I
| started doing it, I understood why your strategy is quite
| suboptimal. With dealers, it's simple: If you don't haggle, you
| will always pay more. The price you can get with successful
| haggling is often lower than the price will ever be advertised,
| in any nearby dealership.
|
| Also, while haggling seems like a pain, it can actually save
| time. A friend was once buying a used BMW, and he wanted a
| price a few thousand dollars less than the dealer was offering.
| Just asking for that lower price didn't help. So he told the
| dealer he had found a dealer with the price he was looking for,
| but it was all the way in a nearby town and he would rather
| just by it locally. The dealer then agreed.
|
| There was no dealer in another town selling at that price. I
| wondered why the local dealer didn't ask for proof. The likely
| reason: It wasn't an _unreasonable_ price, and the local dealer
| knew that if the buyer could afford to wait, he _will_ find a
| dealer somewhere selling at that price. There was utility in
| him getting rid of this car rather than wait for another buyer.
|
| Haggling can save you a lot of time. The only reason I go to
| private party for used car is you'll almost always get better
| deals there. But I do pay a price: I have to wait a lot longer
| on average.
| matwood wrote:
| I agree. It's why Carmax did well even pre-internet delivery
| companies. Were they the cheapest? No, but the prices were
| fine, you could shop online, and no one did any hard sales job.
| bitsnbytes wrote:
| I hate the dealership experience and games they play and have
| always wanted to buy from carmax.
|
| However , I have yet purchased a car from carmax, because
| they have been typically over $3.5K+ overpriced , for the
| same year ,model, and equivalent condition that I can get it
| at the scummy dealers.
|
| Typical car shopping experience. Now this has to be modified
| a little depending if its a buyers or sellers market. However
| for the most part
|
| 1. Determine the car ,model,year, and condition of the car I
| want.
|
| 2. Browse carmax and set that as my highest price.
|
| 3. Email and go to local dealers and offer $3.5K- below
| carmax asking price than add tax and title to submit your
| offer as and out the door price.
|
| 4. Some don't responded but some do .
|
| 5. Go to dealerships ones that said they can do it at near
| the end of the month.
|
| 6. Then expect for them to do the bait and switch and send
| you to the backend manager who plays online games on his
| laptop for about an hour pretending to do something when they
| are really just trying to break you down. So when the manager
| comes into play I typically say great just give me a call or
| I come back after a couple of hours. so I don't wait there
| for no reason.
|
| 7. Manager plays the if he sold me the car for what I asked
| then they would be out of business. Then I say why did you
| agree to it and either I stay firm on my original offer or go
| up 500 bucks. they typically still don't approve at this
| stage which is expected and fine so I walk knowing they
| already have my contact information.
|
| 8. Play the wait game . Typically 1 or 2 weeks later I get a
| call back. They Agree for my original counter offer.
|
| 9. I go back in to sign the paperwork
|
| 10. The carsalesman is all giddy and sends me back to the
| manager and financier to close on the deal.
|
| 11. I get back and I see additional charges such as dealer
| fees and other bs which I say thank you but no thank you and
| the offer I submitted was out the door price. Sometimes I
| walk out again or they remove the charges .
|
| fun stuff but like I said playing the stupid game has saved
| me $3.5K most times. The key is willing and having the time
| to play the stupid game with them, willing to walk, and not
| have an immediate need for a car.
|
| There have been also times where I have been less willing to
| haggle on the price but even then I can typically get the car
| 1.5K below car max with little effort. When I buy new its a
| little trickier but I never pay anywhere near the msrp.
| kube-system wrote:
| The buying experience really varies depending on what end of
| the market you're at. A high volume Honda dealer will almost
| certainly have a very different buying experience than a low
| volume corner buy-here-pay-here lot, and a different revenue
| model. The former often _won 't_ haggle with you, and the
| latter is trying to pay their bills via margin off a small
| number of purchases by customers who don't have much ability to
| shop around.
| qw3rty01 wrote:
| The article answered that question:
|
| > I found some trucks that were literally priced
| $10,000-$15,000 over MSRP, and I encountered many of the shady
| business practices that the FTC is now trying to ban.
|
| because it's not +- a few hundred dollars, it's thousands of
| dollars, and claiming online that it's one price and charging a
| lot more once you get there
| jeffbee wrote:
| Charging over MSRP for cars that are in high demand and short
| supply is not "shady" or even slightly odd.
| gfdsgfdsf wrote:
| MBCook wrote:
| It's not always a few hundred. On popular models it can be many
| thousands.
| RunSet wrote:
| > To be fair to dealerships, they do provide important services.
| They offer a distribution and service network, which is vital to
| both manufacturers and car buyers.
|
| Until they don't. Throwback to that time "the world's largest
| Chevrolet dealer"[0] went under like Jacques Cousteau[1].
|
| [0]
| https://web.archive.org/web/20070202025849/http://www.billhe...
|
| [1]
| https://web.archive.org/web/20170901203212/http://www.tbo.co...
| WalterBright wrote:
| "And it's simply because there's high demand, low inventory, and
| they can do it."
|
| Supply & Demand. It's the law.
| encryptluks2 wrote:
| I find it strange that dealerships can be so scammy, and the
| manufacturer acts like it has no impact on how people view their
| brand.
| kurupt213 wrote:
| Subaru cares. They'll take away the cars
| encryptluks2 wrote:
| From the vehicle owner or dealership? I had the worst
| experience with Toyota. I don't think I'd ever buy a Toyota
| again. The manufacturer was like... We only make the cars and
| don't care what happens at the dealership.
|
| Also what is up with dealerships and mandatory arbitration
| agreements? So you can't buy a car now without signing an
| arbitration agreement?
| kube-system wrote:
| Manufacturers know it has an impact on their brand, but they're
| legally compelled to put up with it.
| dymk wrote:
| > At least some automakers know this. Earlier this year,
| Hyundai Motor Company sent a letter to its dealerships urging
| them to end deceptive practices, such as advertising a low
| price online and then charging a much higher price when
| customers go into the store. The company complained that sky-
| high markups were "damaging our brands' long-term ability to
| capture new customers and retain loyal ones."
| 650REDHAIR wrote:
| Here's my Stealership experience:
|
| I bought a car from Shift.com and it was an absolute nightmare.
|
| Originally I had decided on a Tesla that was in Oakland and put
| down my deposit. The rates Shift gave me were laughable so I
| contacted my credit union. Shift put every roadblock up trying to
| convince me to go with their financing and refinance at a later
| date. I declined and shortly after my car was sold to someone
| else. If I remember correctly it was within like 24hrs. They
| apologized profusely and told me that it shouldn't have been
| possible for that to happen, but it did.
|
| I found another car in San Diego and put down another deposit. I
| was contacted about shipping and told if I did it by a certain
| time they would ship the next day. I did. It took something like
| a week to arrive in Oakland and sat for a few days before they
| could inspect and schedule a delivery.
|
| The delivery was a parking spot on a major street with a rushed
| employee. I mention that because I didn't notice anything major
| with cars flying past me.
|
| I immediately drive to a parking lot and start examining the car.
| The trunk alignment seems off and there was no mention of damage
| so I take some photographs. Maybe it happened in shipping? I take
| it to a car wash because it was filthy. The trunk has a leak.
| It's gross and musky in there.
|
| Shift blew me off so I emailed their CEO, legal, PR, etc until
| someone reached out to me. They paid for an inspection and I
| choose the Toyota dealership. Dealership was shocked that the
| damage wasn't spotted during Shift's initial inspection. There
| was a huge hit in the rear and the repair work was subpar at
| best. The body panel was leaking water and the advanced sensors
| weren't working because the rear left one was broken. The initial
| quote was ~$10k.
|
| Shift was provided the report and after some time they scheduled
| a pickup to have their team preform their own inspection.
|
| Fast forward 8 weeks of very little communication I am informed
| they have fixed the car. I pressed for more info and they said
| they sent my car to a DETAILER. Not a mechanic. Not a body shop.
| Their detailer said the Toyota dealership was wrong. No leak.
| Sensors work.
|
| Somehow they decided that my front bumper was the problem and
| "painted it", or at least that's what Shift told me. Turns out
| they lied about that too. Original paint that they buffed, but
| left compound everywhere and fucked up my headlights and Toyota
| badge.
|
| When confronted with all of this, with photo evidence, Shift
| offered me $250.
|
| That's it. $250 after keeping my car for nearly 10 weeks and then
| not fixing it. During the time they had it the avg MPG dropped to
| 21 mpg (typically 40) and managed to break a bunch of fasteners
| in the trunk.
|
| Now my car has a major accident on the carfax and I'll be out at
| least $10k to fix it. Fuck Shift.com
| 10000truths wrote:
| Sounds like it's time for small claims court?
| 650REDHAIR wrote:
| Yes, I'm filing next week.
|
| I wanted to give them an opportunity to fix it.
| akshayB wrote:
| I recently went through a car buying process and it was extremely
| brutal. You signup paying for Doc fee ($600), even gas, other
| hidden fees, and outrageous charges. Another issue I noticed was
| you are forced into buying overprized accessories like first aid
| kit ($150), car mats and even cargo nets. After all this we ended
| up buying from craigslist as to my surprise some of these charges
| cannot be even waved, you don't stand a chance as people are
| willing to pay for these things and dealership just move to next
| customer.
| kylehotchkiss wrote:
| Is the doc fees just the DMV paperwork? That's always a fee
| when you buy.
| BeetleB wrote:
| Every one I know hates car dealerships. Yet 90% of them refuse to
| buy a used car from a private party.
|
| While it's true they have a lobby and have twisted the arms of
| legislators, it's also true that people prefer buying from them.
| And when they don't buy from them, they buy from CarMax which,
| for used cars, is even worse than buying from a dealer (pre-
| pandemic).
|
| What keeps people from buying from private parties?
|
| Unwillingness to plan and save money (i.e. refuse to buy car
| without financing). Even for under $10K
|
| Being scared of getting a lemon because they lack knowledge about
| cars. I too lack that knowledge, which is why I get a trusted
| mechanic to check out any car I buy. Hasn't failed me in 20
| years. Used car warranties are useless - they don't last long.
| And the last time I went car shopping, _every_ used car from the
| dealer that seemed like a good price had serious problems when I
| took it to the mechanic. Never get a used car from a dealer if
| they don 't let you take it to a mechanic.
|
| Quicker process: It may take a while finding a good used car via
| Private Party. OTOH, there are plenty of dealers one can walk
| into. However, once you find a car you like, the process is much
| smoother with private party. You either agree on a price or you
| don't. No hidden fees. You know exactly what you're getting.
|
| _Edit_ : I just want to be clear: I'm not trying to convince
| anyone to buy private party. If you're happy with avoiding the
| "hassle", that's fine. My point is that for all the complaints
| about dealers, the reality is people prefer them.
| Retric wrote:
| Don't forget about transaction costs.
|
| IMO, buying an economic new car and then keeping for most of
| the vehicles lifetime is close to optimal. No need to stress
| about comparing a bunch of specific cars just a few models you
| can research online. It's low stress because you have a lot of
| leverage at the dealership as you can get the same thing down
| the street or in 3 months if you chose to walk out the door.
| BeetleB wrote:
| > IMO, buying an economic new car and then keeping for most
| of the vehicles lifetime is close to optimal.
|
| It sounds like you're adding the time searching, etc to your
| model (which is fine).
|
| From a purely financial perspective, I do wonder. I think the
| key phrase is "keeping it for most of the vehicle's
| lifetime". If I look at the used cars I've bought, the total
| I've paid is $17000 in today's dollars over the last 19
| years.[1] If you throw in various repairs, it adds a few
| thousand more (I'm too lazy to look up the actual numbers,
| but you can find it if you dig deep in my comment history).
| And that number includes routine maintenance everyone has to
| do (oil changes, replace brakes, etc).
|
| A comparable new car today would cost more, but you get the
| benefit of having a modern car instead of old cars that I've
| driven. The down side is you're stuck with that car for a
| long time, whereas you can keep getting newer model used card
| every so many years.
|
| [1] I didn't get lucky or find fantastic deals. These numbers
| are representative if you follow a few simple rules of used
| car buying.
| [deleted]
| qzw wrote:
| People don't have trusted mechanics or know how to get one. For
| the majority of people, the dealer where they got the car is
| their "(somewhat) trusted mechanic". That's why they go to
| dealers or CarMax and pay a huge premium, just for the
| psychological comfort. And for certain premium brands, a
| certified preowned car that comes with an extended warranty
| might not even be that bad of a deal, at least during normal
| market conditions.
| eikenberry wrote:
| I buy at CarMax because... a) I hate bartering. b) I want to
| visit a website, look at the cars available, go test drive a
| few, buy the one I like best. IE. Convenience. My time is
| worth the few thousand extra I pay that would be spent
| tracking down private owners, driving around to all of them
| to test drive, getting a mechanic to check it over, dealing
| with all those people, etc.
| BeetleB wrote:
| > My time is worth the few thousand extra I pay that would
| be spent tracking down private owners, driving around to
| all of them to test drive, getting a mechanic to check it
| over, dealing with all those people, etc.
|
| This is a common refrain, and while you can afford it, I
| doubt many people I know can really afford that cost of a
| few thousand dollars. If I offered a $1500 fee for doing
| the leg work for them, would they pay me the money? If not,
| then "convenience of saving time" is not the reason.
| qzw wrote:
| The convenience is a factor for some, but perceived
| safety is probably the primary factor for most. They may
| not be able to afford to pay thousands extra, but they
| can even less afford to be scammed or buy a lemon. So
| they will compromise on the model or age or mileage of
| the vehicle and get a little less car for their budget.
| eikenberry wrote:
| If there was a trustworthy service I could pay to buy me
| a car that, with their fee, would cost around the same as
| CarMax (or maybe even a bit more) I'd 100% try it. I love
| the concierge type services and take advantage of them
| whenever possible. There just aren't many of them to use.
| BeetleB wrote:
| I could talk to each of these points, but at the end of the
| day, you're agreeing with me: As much as people complain
| about it, they _prefer_ dealers, or options even more
| expensive than dealers (e.g. CarMax) even if for very poor
| reasons.
|
| All the problems you list are not difficult to overcome when
| it comes to private party. People do not want to overcome it
| - they would rather pay a few thousand dollars more.
| qzw wrote:
| I don't disagree with you that serious money can be saved
| if one knows the correct way to buy from a private party.
| But psychological comfort also has real value for a lot of,
| maybe even most, people. It may seem like a poor reason to
| you, but for them it's worth it. Plus, you should be happy
| to have fewer people competing with you to buy from private
| sellers, thereby further lowering your price.
| 121789 wrote:
| It's a big purchase and risk and most people don't have a
| trusted mechanic. You know you're getting a little scammed at
| the dealership, but the risk of a complete lemon feels much
| lower (and you have someone to complain to post-sale if things
| don't go well). Interesting idea for a revenue stream for
| mechanics though (used car assessments for a fee).
| BeetleB wrote:
| > You know you're getting a little scammed at the dealership,
| but the risk of a complete lemon feels much lower (and you
| have someone to complain to post-sale if things don't go
| well).
|
| But that's my point. It's only a _feeling_ , and likely not
| reflective of reality. And in most cases, no: You have no one
| to complain to. A lot of used cars have fairly low warranties
| (a few months, maybe?). Most problems will not occur in that
| short window.
| [deleted]
| dillutedfixer wrote:
| Dealing with a dealership is all about psychology. They are
| playing a psychological mind game with you when they make you
| wait for so long while they're in the back doing "paperwork".
| They want you to get antsy so you make bad decisions.
|
| The trick to making this interaction go your way is to not play
| their game. If they seat you at a table and make you wait, just
| get up and walk away. Go start looking at another car. This will
| freak them the F out. My last interaction with a car dealer was
| hilarious. When I started playing mind games with them (walking
| away while they made me wait, fake-scrolling through ads on my
| phone, wondering out loud about the dealer across the street)
| they literally bent over backwards. They lowered the price on the
| car I wanted significantly. They offered me more than KBB trade-
| in value for my old car. They even offered to buy my wife and I
| lunch because we acted like we were going to go think it over
| while we ate.
|
| It's all mind games. Don't play theirs. The dealerships tactics
| are not very effective if you take control. They just get a lot
| of practice and they know that new-car-smell is addictive.
| ISL wrote:
| The only winning move with the manipulative is not to play.
| Their games tend to waste your time and resources.
|
| Somewhere, somebody interested in delivering customer value
| will sell you a quality car at a price that is respectful to
| all parties. Buy that one. Do note that a respectful price
| preserves a margin for the dealer.
| michaelwww wrote:
| This is good advice. I discovered by accident a really good
| technique. Just tell them you don't make any big decisions
| without sleeping on it. Then don't budge. Once they know they
| can't get you to sign that day, a lot of the tension goes out
| of the process. They have to switch gears and be respectful to
| entice you back tomorrow.
| dillutedfixer wrote:
| Anything that throws them off their very-well rehearsed
| script puts the power back in your hands!
| zachshefska wrote:
| Disclaimer; I run a popular youtube channel educating consumers
| on car buying.
|
| Greg did a good job documenting the challenges of buying a car in
| today's market. Fortunately, we are starting to see a softening
| in consumer demand which has led to used car prices to begin to
| drop in some areas and for certain types of vehicles.
|
| We expect that as automakers increase production we'll go away
| from markups. The timeline for that is tricky since Asian brands
| (Toyota and Honda especially) are struggling MUCH more than
| American automakers. MSRPs are rising fast too, so while dealer
| markups may disappear as demand weakens and supply increases,
| don't be surprised if you see MSRPs that are 5-10% higher year
| over year.
|
| Wait times right now for hybrid vehicles are over a year. The
| push to PHEV and BEV will continue to be delayed due to
| ridiculous prices. The average transaction price for a new EV
| last month was north of $66,000. Not affordable.
|
| Great insights in Greg's article. I wish we could have helped him
| before he embarked on the journey.
| sremani wrote:
| Hey Zack, I was about to plug your channel. Good work bro!
| germinalphrase wrote:
| Are Japanese manufactures supply constrained due to chip
| shortages in particular?
| ghaff wrote:
| The current supply shortages made the process less bothersome
| for me in some ways because I didn't really expect to have much
| luck haggling. Wasn't perfect. "In transit" meant it wasn't
| built yet and I was in a bit of a hurry. (Had car but car had
| problems.) Doc fee was high. A couple of 50% BS sets of
| "factory installed options." (Though got price tacked onto my
| pretty generous trade-in.) Some annoying attempts to upsell but
| "no" worked fine. Didn't need financing.
|
| But overall, it was a couple of visits and a few hours and I
| got the vehicle (Honda) in six weeks.
| twblalock wrote:
| I hope the example of Tesla's successful direct sales model, and
| Ford and GM's current frustration with dealers marking up popular
| EVs, will result in the large auto companies lobbying to remove
| the protectionist laws that force the dealership model on
| consumers.
| ISL wrote:
| Unlikely -- Saturn had consumer-friendly no-hassle pricing (and
| vehicles) in the 1990s. That model hasn't returned.
|
| (Also, the superlative owners' manual for my wife's Saturn was
| a user-friendly document designed with the end-user in mind.
| Never seen anything like it before or since.)
| pkrotich wrote:
| I couldn't agree more with the author. It's my exact experience.
|
| I'm in the market to get a car for my 16 year old daughter. Found
| a car she wanted online, made an appointment (after they
| confirmed the inventory with the dealership) - we drove 2 hours
| only to be told the car we wanted just got moved to sister
| dealership a few miles away... asked them if we could go see or
| buy it only to be told it sold (after a minute of "checking") and
| by the way all cars are marked $10k above MSRP in the name of
| market adjustment!
|
| I guess technically it's not false advertising since the
| advertised car we wanted "sold". What infuriated me is not even
| time wasted - with confirmation I started financing process!! Now
| I have an inquiry on my credit report for nothing.
|
| It's such an outdated sales model based on trickery and I hope
| dealerships go by way of malls in my lifetime!
| matttb wrote:
| > I guess technically it's not false advertising since the
| advertised car we wanted "sold".
|
| I worked at a car dealership and they absolutely lied about
| this stuff. They would say that the law lets them do it as long
| as it was sold within 24 hours, but they also kept advertising
| cars that had been sold weeks ago. Every time someone came in
| and asked they'd give the "Sorry it was sold within the past 24
| hours" lie.
| kurupt213 wrote:
| Subaru dealerships are supposed to stick to MSRP. They got a
| nasty gram from corporate at the beginning of the year during the
| big supply crunch
| gamblor956 wrote:
| Some Subaru dealers in LA have been adding mandatory add-ons to
| goose the price (which is otherwise at MSRP). Glendale, for
| example, has a mandatory $3000 "protection package" on higher-
| trim Outbacks.
| JediPig wrote:
| Nah, dealers are hiding inventory. NPR didn't bother checking in
| the back.
| thrill wrote:
| Dealerships make it unbelievably painful as a matter of course. I
| bought my most recent car coming off lease. Even though I
| arranged all this online and arrived with a certified check, it
| still took me 3 hours to get the paperwork done when I showed up
| there - talk about captured. It was ridiculous.
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