[HN Gopher] Germany's EUR9 train tickets scheme 'saved 1.8m tons...
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Germany's EUR9 train tickets scheme 'saved 1.8m tons of CO2
emissions'
Author : andrew_eit
Score : 55 points
Date : 2022-08-30 16:59 UTC (6 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.theguardian.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.theguardian.com)
| rad_gruchalski wrote:
| Where can one find the actual method used to come up with this
| number?
|
| Is it the difference in tickets sold during EUR9 and prior to
| EUR9 * statistical distance travelled by a statistical German
| assuming that every surplus ticket sold was bought to substitute
| a car travel?
|
| Subsequently, it would be great to have that number put in
| context right next to a graph showing gasoline and diesel sales
| in the same time period. Those were also cheaper for the same
| time period.
| belter wrote:
| Savings will be quickly offset by increased car usage with the
| new prices...
|
| "End of German 9-euro public transport ticket to be followed by
| even higher fares" - https://www.cleanenergywire.org/news/end-
| german-9-euro-publi...
| insane_dreamer wrote:
| Why not make public transportation free as part of the
| government's investment in combatting climate change (and lots of
| other benefits)
| Tiktaalik wrote:
| Generally the barrier to using public transit is not price, but
| rather deficiencies in the network, so the best way to increase
| transit use is to invest money in expanding the network or
| improving frequency and consistency of transit.
|
| This is definitely the case in North America, but still likely
| the case in Germany despite Germany having a much more robust
| transit system.
| insane_dreamer wrote:
| I'd say the barrier in N.America is both deficient networks
| in most cities, and price (it's actually quite expensive
| because there's such low usage). If it were free, or close-
| to-free, it would ostensibly increase ridership which would
| increase the impetus for further expansion (which right now
| is hard to advocate for when so few people use it; it's just
| not worth the cost even if you charge people for it).
| desindol wrote:
| This is only true if you can afford other options. There is a
| reason why the CDU wants refugees in the more rural areas.
| With no means of transportation they are stuck and out of the
| way of most if not all cities. This is obviously boring asf
| so crime rates go up which leads to anti refugee sentiment
| and plays into their agenda. This is a trend across most of
| Europe and free public transport would 100% ease the
| situation for the refugees and the people in the area.
| pwdisswordfish0 wrote:
| Yeah no, it's definitely the price and the hassle of getting
| a ticket. I probably live in the best developed area in
| Germany, public transit wise. I could be in the next big city
| center in 10 minutes by train, but without the EUR9 ticket I
| frequently took the car (which I have to have for rural
| reasons), because apparently rather than paying EUR12.40 I
| preferred driving 30 minutes, finding and paying for parking,
| and not drinking. Because it's not just paying 12.40, it's
| figuring out what ticket to get, being shocked by the price,
| calculating a thousand and one fare options to try and penny-
| pinch myself to a clean conscience, dealing with their
| fucking ticket machines or their fucking app, begrudgingly
| committing to a time and a train... Hating every part of it
| and feeling hated back by Deutsche Bahn at every step of the
| way, knowing they'll readily fuck me over if they find the
| tiniest excuse.
|
| The EUR9 ticket got you around without playing stupid games.
| The same freedom is either unavailable otherwise, or comes at
| absolutely unjustifiable prices.
| iggldiggl wrote:
| Only relatively recently some smaller scale experiments in
| that direction were done in a few German cities, and service
| improvements were indeed found more effective in gaining
| additional passengers.
| mytailorisrich wrote:
| Because it's expensive but not necessarily effective.
|
| It also only benefits city-dwellers (see political impact of
| this by looking at, for instance, the yellow vest protests in
| France).
| valenterry wrote:
| I don't think it only benefits city-dwellers. Sure, on the
| countryside the service is much worse, but on the other hand,
| the money spent per person might even be higher in the
| countryside.
| asdajksah2123 wrote:
| Making public transportation free would reduce demand for
| oil/gas in cities and would lower prices people in rural
| areas would pay relative to it not being free.
|
| Of course, this assumes that public transportation is only
| available in cities, but that's not true at all. Many
| European countries have extremely effective rural public
| transportation.
| ipaddr wrote:
| Taxes raise in rural areas to pay for these systems.
| desindol wrote:
| The costs are negligible to every corp bailouts in the
| last 50 years or the cumex scandal. With the money corps
| extracted through illegal means with cumex we would have
| free transportation for the next 30 years.
| insane_dreamer wrote:
| it benefits city-dwellers more, but some (many?) European
| countries have rural rail/bus networks that are highly
| effective
| ramblezeus wrote:
| There was a recent discussion on the topic "Should Public
| Transit Be Free?" on Freakonomics Podcast
|
| https://freakonomics.com/podcast/should-public-transit-be-fr...
| valenterry wrote:
| There's pros and cons.
|
| On the con side:
|
| - When people get something for free, they often don't value it
| as much and treat it worse. E.g. more pollution.
|
| - public transportation being free also means that it will be
| used even in cases where it is both economically and
| ecologically a suboptimal solution. This is a problem because
| more usage means higher costs. E.g. someone now might take a
| bus instead of cycling.
|
| - Less competition. This point is tricky, but essentially,
| other solutions such as private long-distance busses (which
| have a comparibly good ecological footprint) might go out of
| business. In general, market might develop suboptimal.
|
| There are a lot of good points too, which makes it a difficult
| decision. But since you asked, those can be named as reasons I
| suppose.
| atwood22 wrote:
| > - public transportation being free also means that it will
| be used even in cases where it is both economically and
| ecologically a suboptimal solution. This is a problem because
| more usage means higher costs. E.g. someone now might take a
| bus instead of cycling.
|
| That's really reaching. Presumably people would do the thing
| that bear fits their circumstances after weighing the costs
| and benefits.
| lgrapenthin wrote:
| Wrong. It flooded the network with vacationers who normally could
| not afford travelling at all, while workers had to resort to
| their cars again to reach their jobs in time.
|
| Counting everyone who "would not have travelled by train",
| meaning "likely not at all" as saved emission is not very
| convincing.
| baohwang wrote:
| hedora wrote:
| According to the article, the study accounts for this.
|
| Do you have some evidence that it does not?
| rad_gruchalski wrote:
| > According to the article, the study accounts for this.
|
| Can you please point out the part of the article supporting
| this claim?
| cgeier wrote:
| > The Association of German Transport Companies (VDV),
| which carried out the research, said the number of people
| who switched from cars to public transport as a result of
| the EUR9 ticket was behind the saving in emissions.
| [deleted]
| rurban wrote:
| I know nobody who had to switch to their car to come to work in
| time.
|
| On the hand, most coworkers tried the bus in the morning, or
| switched to bycicles, with the occasional bus trip when it
| rained. It was a huge success, people flooded the trains.
| ellareen wrote:
| I actually did borrow my parents car because the commute got
| so bad. I commute from Aachen to Cologne. After 2 trips there
| and back which would usually take me about 4 hours total, I
| had accumulated over 8 hours of total travel time and kinda
| had enough. Was very glad i was able to WFH.
| netsharc wrote:
| Huh, why did the 9 Euro ticket double your travel time? Did
| the trains get slower? Did they cancel the fast trains?
| Were the trains so full you had to wait 2 hours to find
| space in one?
| MildlySerious wrote:
| I am assuming a large part of that influx was from people who
| made extensive use of it because of its limited nature. If a
| similar option was always available, there would be a lot less
| pressure to squeeze every opportunity into such a short time
| frame.
|
| If the 69EUR ticket came to pass, it would still be more
| expensive than, or in the same ballpark as most one-off trips.
| People would make use of it, but the urge to take advantage of
| it while it lasts would be gone.
| dunefox wrote:
| Good thing it won't be continued then, because if there's one
| thing Germany hates it's improvements.
| junon wrote:
| I want to downvote this, but unfortunately it's true. Living
| here, people have lost hope that the government will improve
| anything.
| Akronymus wrote:
| But clearly, accelerating the shutdown of nuclear is the best
| way to combat climate change.
| throw827474737 wrote:
| Not everything needs to be "climate" now as we ignored it
| anyway for too long..lol. It is also about not using finite
| resources, waste, risk, economics.. lately looking at
| France's and China's heat waves, didn't we all learn that
| all our coal/gas and first of these nuclear plants will
| fail more and more and not be a reliable power source
| during increasing heat and drought waves and the near
| future? And then there it is also good to have that
| Ukrainian example... conflucts & war will now also only
| increase, that is for sure.
|
| Worst of all I cannot get rid of the feeling that everybody
| shouting "nuclear now" was denying or at least ignoring
| clinate change for the last 30 years... slowly realizing
| that climate change is a thing and longing for the laziest
| worst second option. No, that's not enough, and even all
| that aside would never suffice, barely help now. Be happy
| in your nuclear focused states and fantasies but leave this
| at rest here at least ..
| hedora wrote:
| I've been shouting "nuclear now" and "climate change" for
| about 30 years. I not the only one.
| kioleanu wrote:
| As an insider point of view, although it may not seem so, I
| am optimistic we'll see a lot of changes in the near future.
|
| The main reason is that there were many measures taken to
| make the government be a desirable employer and I am seeing
| many capable people entering the public service
| hedora wrote:
| They're considering replacing it with at 69 euro ticket, which
| seems pretty reasonable:
|
| https://www.cnn.com/travel/article/germany-9-euro-ticket-end...
|
| It's still pretty hard to defend them though; for some reason
| the bureaucracy is incapable of adding the new ticket in time
| to address this winter's energy crisis.
| cliZX81 wrote:
| That's roughly one percent of Germany's CO2 emissions.
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