[HN Gopher] Programming on 34 Keys
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Programming on 34 Keys
Author : mmazzarolo
Score : 72 points
Date : 2022-08-30 09:13 UTC (13 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (peppe.rs)
(TXT) w3m dump (peppe.rs)
| RistrettoMike wrote:
| I recently pared back my own layout to something similar, and
| it's been surprisingly comfortable. I had learned to type on a
| split board for the first time a few months ago, and going from a
| more "full" split layout to something where you've essentially
| shoved all non-alpha inputs down into other layers was actually
| surprisingly intuitive.
|
| I'm still memorizing some inputs; ones that require holding a
| layer key, then holding a homerow mod on one hand, and finally
| hitting the intended character key are proving especially tricky.
|
| (eg: hold thumb key to switch to symbol layer, hold down homerow
| mod for shift, press desired symbol for shifted version -- poor
| example, but all the same.)
|
| More folks should give this sort of thing a try! Provided you're
| not also re-learning the alpha-key locations at the same time,
| it's really not so bad a transition. A day or two architecting
| your layout, a few days tweaking with use, some dedicated
| practice, and normal use from there on out should get one
| comfortable. :)
| AndrewOMartin wrote:
| Not sure if relevant XKCD: https://xkcd.com/1806/
| dhosek wrote:
| I remember seeing the half keyboard back in 2001
| (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00006IZIL/donhosek) and
| being intrigued with it (I was contemplating it for use with my
| Palm Pilot) but the price was prohibitive for something that I
| might not like. Ultimately, the fact that I have to move between
| computers periodically has kept me from doing anything but a
| traditional qwerty keyboard for anything.
| wishinghand wrote:
| I've always been of the opinion that 36 is too few, but this does
| a good job of converting me. I already do similar stuff with
| layers ie: one layer for a right hand numpad, another for home
| row arrows and some common programmer symbols.
|
| One of these days I'll try out something other than QWERTY.
| js2 wrote:
| I worked with someone years ago who tried to teach himself to use
| a pair of corded bat keyboards:
|
| https://www.infogrip.com/bat-keyboard.html
|
| His plan was to mount them to the sides of his chair so he could
| type with his arms hanging at his sides. I don't recall if ever
| got past using just one of them, and actually, I'm not sure why
| he needed two in the first place. Now I'm doubting my memory.
| Anyway, more on this innovative keyboard:
|
| https://hackaday.com/2020/08/18/inputs-of-interest-the-infog...
| memco wrote:
| That looks quite a bit more spartan than these chara corder
| keyboards I saw in use recently: https://www.charachorder.com/.
| They have a QWERTY keyboard with chording firmware (and a chip
| for custom keyboards) to try corded input for those who want to
| experiment without going all in.
| insane_dreamer wrote:
| I've found using Dvorak on a standard keyboard (until split
| keyboards became available) is quite efficient -- haven't found
| the need to switch to anything smaller. Back in the day built a
| mechanical foot pedal that would activate the control key for
| programs that required a lot of Control-key combinations (like
| WordStar), but fell out of use over time. Been using this setup
| for 35 years now.
| SuperCuber wrote:
| Correction: s/to move $ to the left of ^/to move $ to the right
| of ^
|
| Good post, although I find homerow mods kinda annoying so I
| personally don't use them (ergodox ez). I think the perfect
| layout for me would be something like a Sofle :)
| ZeroGravitas wrote:
| This is roughly what I do too. I've found it pretty good.
|
| Minor differences:
|
| I use Dvorak as the base setup.
|
| I use the same system on Mac laptops, so the two inner thumb keys
| are both 'space' because when on the laptop rather than a split
| keyboard I use the spacebar to toggle into the num/symbol layer
| if held (I believe you can actually use thumb on the trackpad as
| extra keys if you want and your laptop layout works, but never
| got around to trying it).
|
| Command keys on Mac laptop (either side of the spacebar) are set
| to backspace and enter if used individually.
|
| I didn't go full home row mods after trying it. I use two keys at
| once for ctrl (sd or kl on a qwerty layout), and two keys at once
| for shift (cv or m, on qwerty).
|
| A few other double key shortcuts e.g. xc as ":" for vim stuff,
| and cv in querty (jk in dvorak) as escape.
|
| I have a 36 key keyboard but I guess due to the double space it's
| a 35 key layout. Don't use the other button (option) for much,
| just arrow keys with vim hjkl so could possibly live without it
| as a 33 key layout.
| pkamb wrote:
| What application do you use to set this up on a Mac?
| ZeroGravitas wrote:
| Karabiner does the actual remapping.
|
| https://karabiner-elements.pqrs.org/
|
| and
|
| https://github.com/yqrashawn/GokuRakuJoudo
|
| lets you write your keymappings in a text editor and
| translate it into the weird XML/JSON syntax so you don't have
| to use the GUI editor.
| falcolas wrote:
| I've tried to use smaller keyboards with layers, but unless I'm
| using them everywhere I will forget what buttons to hit. And
| ultimately, my desk space is not at such a premium that a full-
| sized keyboard is unwelcome in that space.
|
| I do also enjoy (full sized) split keyboards though.
| aendruk wrote:
| Yeah the trick is to actually use the small layout everywhere,
| not just for consistency but to continue getting the benefits
| of reduced finger strain and hand motion.
|
| I reproduced most of a small keyboard's layout on my laptop
| using KMonad and now don't even touch about 20 keys even though
| they're available. It's that realization that makes one dream
| of just omitting the unused hardware.
| ZeroGravitas wrote:
| When learning my 36 key layout, I needed to disable the other
| keys on my full size keyboards, to force myself to use the
| subset. Once I'd learned that, I could turn them back on
| without being tempted to fall back to them instead of learning.
| Once I learned it, I prefered it even on the keyboards with
| many more keys available, like my Kinesis Advantage.
| yewenjie wrote:
| I have found the Miryoku layout extremely well-thought and easy
| to use - https://github.com/manna-harbour/miryoku
|
| It has six or seven layers, and aggressively uses home-row mods.
| 100011_100001 wrote:
| I have to share my story, because I read the comments here and
| the post and I fell into a similar trap about a year ago.
|
| It all sounds good. Compact keyboard has always appealed to me,
| so did ergonomics, I bought a split keyboard (36 keys) with
| Miryoku layout and went to town. I lasted about 1 month and quit.
|
| What happens is the amount of keys you have to type concurrently
| increases forcing your fingers in weird positions.
|
| For example, typing the following 48 characters
| if (needle in [a, b, c]) { println('found it') }
|
| In a standard keyboard you have to press 53 key presses
| (parenthesis is Shift+9 so that's two keys for a single
| parenthesis etc)
|
| In a Miroyoku layout it's 59 key presses. This might not sound
| like a lot but it's a ~10% increase.
|
| It also doesn't account for a very big problem, arrow key
| navigation for non VIM users. Since pressing the arrow keys
| requires two button presses in smaller keyboards, and done
| repetitively it's a huge slow down in navigating text. Now there
| are solution to this, most IDEs can support VIM keybinds, or have
| their own hot keys to skip words etc. To me the arrow key
| navigation is what got to me long term and I opt4ed out of it.
| chrisBob wrote:
| It is interesting that you think arrow keys are a likely
| blocker. I have a Kinesis Freestyle Pro and my favorite feature
| is having the arrow keys on the second layer as vim style HJKL.
| I also have backspace, esc and del on the second layer with the
| right half of the space bar as the layer shift key. Moving
| these common keys made a huge difference to me, and was an easy
| transition since I exercise them so much.
|
| The reason I couldn't move to a much smaller keyboard is that
| the less common keys that I use a few times a day like `{}\<>?
| feel like they would be so much harder to retrain. Similarly I
| am only passable at touch typing my number row, and I don't
| think I could survive without the labels for the symbols that
| are usually over the numbers.
| guidoism wrote:
| I'm at 48 keys right now, but I would like to counter that it's
| not just key presses you should care about, but also movement
| of the hands. My setup definitely isn't perfect but your
| example is exactly the kind of key sequence I have optimized
| for. Having parenthesis and the various brackets on the home
| row or very close is super awesome for programming.
|
| Honestly, you don't need to go down to so few keys, just
| program your keyboard to have one more layer that puts those
| special characters into a better place for you and I think
| you'll get 90% of the benefit of the OP's keyboard.
| ZeroGravitas wrote:
| What actually tipped me over to doing this 'layers' thing,
| was exactly these keys being in different places on different
| keyboards.
|
| Having (){}[]-+ in the same place and easily touch-typable
| was much better than having them in different places
| depending on what I was typing on (dvorak already has < and
| >, ' and " period and comma in a sensible place).
| feifan wrote:
| I'd love to see the opposite -- bigger keyboards, with more keys
| dedicated to domain-specific functions (something like this[0]).
| I think that would mean less cognitive overhead in general as you
| do a particular job.
|
| [^0]:
| https://twitter.com/mwichary/status/1537631208414191616?s=21...
| kitsunesoba wrote:
| For my usage I've found the happy spot to be somewhere in the
| realm of HHKB/Tsangan/60%. 65% can be OK too assuming it's using
| the HHKB Backspace placement (where the pipe key is on typical
| ANSI boards) and Control is in the Caps Lock position.
|
| The F-keys just don't get enough usage to justify dedicated keys,
| and while dedicated arrows aren't bad the reduced hand movement
| of layered arrows with the HHKB layout is nice. Numpads are
| useful occasionally but not often enough that I want one
| permanently integrated into my keyboard eating up desk space and
| being unmovable, so I have a standalone numpad that sits to the
| _left_ of my keyboard when it's needed so I can mouse around and
| use the numpad at the same time.
|
| These layouts are also similar enough to typical laptop keyboard
| layouts that I can still use those without much trouble, so I
| don't need to tote around a keyboard.
| donio wrote:
| Overloading Space, Tab and Enter to be used as a modifier when
| held means that you can't get auto-repeat on these keys and they
| are activated on-release instead of on-press, correct?
| rgoulter wrote:
| I get auto-repeat on space by doing tap-then-hold of the key.
| Apparently not for tab/return. - I presume the behaviour is
| configurable if that's something that suits you.
| chaorace wrote:
| QMK firmware has a handy feature for this called Tapping Force
| Hold[1]. If you hold the key normally, it modifies the layout,
| but if you tap it once (or more) and then hold, you'll get the
| normal repeating behavior.
|
| _Example A_ :
|
| Hold Backspace => Activates layer overlay
|
| _Example B_ :
|
| Tap Backspace => Input backspace
|
| Hold Backspace => Input held backspace => OS handles repeating
| as configured
|
| [1]: https://docs.qmk.fm/#/tap_hold?id=tapping-force-hold
| memco wrote:
| I believe so. You also lose repeat on the home row keys because
| they become modifiers when held. It's a trade off, but one that
| many people make since repeated key presses is not as useful as
| the mod keys. Same is true for people who remap caps lock: they
| give up a lesser used feature for something more useful for
| their specific preference. Of course once you get into keyboard
| customization you can start doing things like map caps lock to
| escape when pressed alone, control when pressed in combination
| with another key and maybe make shift + caps lock activate caps
| lock. Depends on what you need and what you're trying to
| accomplish.
| fowlie wrote:
| Miryoku user here. Nice post!
|
| Symbols in a mirrored numpad shape to fix $ and ^ seems
| brilliant, I might have to try that! And the caps word feature,
| holy crap thats awesome.
|
| Where are your \, ` and F keys, you don't use them? And why stock
| colemak not mod-dk?
| immigrantheart wrote:
| Do you retain standard qwerty staggered layout muscle memory?
|
| I heard using colemak and stagger column makes your muscle memory
| confused because it is similar with staggered row qwerty.
| jweather wrote:
| I've typed Dvorak for years on staggered rows, and retained my
| ability to switch back to Qwerty at ~70% of the speed. I just
| switched to staggered column 58-key Dvorak though, and I have
| noticed it takes me a minute to go back to staggered row on my
| laptop keyboard in either layout. I think it has more to do
| with the key positions than the layout.
| thomastjeffery wrote:
| I learned the Workman layout before getting an ortholinear
| keyboard.
|
| It was _slightly_ more difficult for me to switch back to
| qwerty when I was still using a traditional staggered keyboard
| to type workman, especially when I was still getting
| comfortable with workman.
|
| I wasn't really _worse_ at qwerty than before: I just felt
| extra uncomfortable with the context switching.
|
| Now that I'm exclusively using an ortholinear keyboard to type
| workman, I'm back to my original comfort level typing qwerty on
| traditional staggered keyboards. I don't enjoy it, but I don't
| really think about it either. Context switching went from a
| mild nuisance to completely effortless.
| rgoulter wrote:
| > Do you retain standard qwerty staggered layout muscle memory?
|
| Yes, though I use a laptop's keyboard from time to time, which
| will help.
|
| I use row-stagger QWERTY, and use Dvorak on small, weird
| keyboards like this.
|
| I think learning a second layout on the same keyboard would be
| confusing (row-staggered or otherwise).
| flyingfences wrote:
| I can't speak to the particular 34-key board in the OP, but
| I've been using a Colemak 60% (HHKB) at home and a full-size
| QWERTY at work for a few years (after using Colemak almost
| exclusively for a few years before that) and I can jump back
| and forth with no trouble at all. It was a little awkward at
| first, but that was when I was just learning Colemak and had
| never properly learned to ten-finger-touch-type QWERTY.
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