[HN Gopher] The Next Mainstream Programming Language: A Game Dev...
___________________________________________________________________
The Next Mainstream Programming Language: A Game Developer's
Perspective (2005) [pdf]
Author : Tomte
Score : 80 points
Date : 2022-08-26 10:42 UTC (12 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.st.cs.uni-saarland.de)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.st.cs.uni-saarland.de)
| richardjam73 wrote:
| So a functional modula 3 perhaps?
| PainfullyNormal wrote:
| Epic hired Simon-Peyton Jones to work on it (Verse), so I'm
| guessing more like Haskell.
|
| https://discourse.haskell.org/t/an-epic-future-for-spj/3573
| bluedino wrote:
| Resources: - ~10 programmers - ~20 artists
| - ~24 month development cycle - ~$10M budget
|
| $166,666 per person a year? Does that include office space,
| computers, tools, software? Seems very low.
| justinlloyd wrote:
| In 2022, in a HCOL, $150K base for an exceptionally senior/lead
| developer with 10 to 15+ years of experience, writing hard-core
| C++ and multiple shipped AAA titles, in the games industry,
| working on console or PC or mobile, with a BSc, that isn't
| connected to blockchain/web3/nfts/crypto, is actually on the
| high side. If the developer is pure Unity (even if they are
| writing C++/HLSL every day), you can cut another $20K off of
| the price. Senior developers sit around $100K to $120K. Mid-
| levels below that. I am specifically talking HCOL US wages. I
| got a "generous" offer last year where the company struggled to
| get to $160K base for the Los Angeles area. There's a reason
| that Roblox, Amazon, Microsoft, Google can slurp up pretty much
| any software developer in the games industry.
|
| Artists and designers will rarely break $100k. There will also
| be project management (director & producer), and QA. Though
| depending on how the studio is set up, QA might be a shared
| resource and only get line items towards the end of
| development.
|
| Tool & software budgets in the games industry are miniscule.
| Training and continuing education are non-existent. Bonuses
| hardly exist. You might get a $40 "special sale" office chair
| that at least four other people have had before you. Unless you
| buy your own or get really lucky, that keyboard and mouse
| you're given has been there since the company was founded and
| are now considered religious artifacts.
|
| A fully loaded team of 10 developers is going to be one lead,
| two or three senior SMEs, 50% mid-levels (if you're lucky), and
| the rest are juniors or developers who are (non-visual)
| scripters building visual (UI, effects, game play) in Lua or
| some other scripting language.
|
| We can argue the numbers back and forth in endless pedantry,
| but my salary numbers are going to be pretty close to reality,
| with $5k to $10k here and there based on current industry
| trends. I keep my finger on the pulse of the industry pretty
| closely. In 22+ years, high-end salary of $100K in 2001 has
| slowly crept up to $130K-ish in 2022. Over my 40 year career
| I've spent a good two decades doing AAA development, have been
| senior/lead/tech director and CTO, and run my own studio, built
| multiple teams and managed large projects and have hired a lot
| of game developers over the years.
| meheleventyone wrote:
| Like all budgets it's wildly optimistic. I'm pretty sure
| precisely zero games Epic have made fit.
| wizofaus wrote:
| For 2005 though?
| aliqot wrote:
| Even in 2022, this is a Noble's wage where I live.
| loudthing wrote:
| Not when you factor in equipment, travel, keeping the
| lights on, etc.
| aliqot wrote:
| You'd be surprised.
| gervwyk wrote:
| What would a reasonable rate be in today's terms?
| makapuf wrote:
| Wow unreal engine in 100kloc of c++ ! Should be a dozen millions
| now.
| debacle wrote:
| I wonder what the author would think of C# now. Seems he's very
| much a fan of C++ over C#/Java, which may have changed in the
| intervening 15+ years.
|
| Personally, I think continuing to use C++ for game dev (it is
| still the lingua franca) is more about momentum than it being the
| best choice (in most instances).
|
| His predictions on what computing power will look like "in the
| future" (e.g. now) are interesting as well. Some have played out,
| others haven't.
| smallstepforman wrote:
| The author is Tim Sweeney, creator of the Unreal Engine.
| agluszak wrote:
| I'm looking forward to Rust's adoption in popular game
| development engines. There's https://bevyengine.org/ in the
| meanwhile
| kriro wrote:
| I find it interesting that one of the go to "let's learn Rust"
| books (Hand on Rust) is cantered around building a rogue like
| game. I feel like this will have a subtle but noticable (long
| tail) impact because many people who start learning Rust will
| do so on gamedev examples. The next logical step for a couple
| of them will be "all right now I'll build my own cool game".
| Maybe it'll be a tiny fraction but I feel there will be more
| good people moving into the Rust-Gamedev area than if that book
| was about building a web server.
| maxbond wrote:
| Also worth noting that you can write Godot native plugins (I
| don't think that's the correct terminology - forgive me, I'm
| not a Godot developer) with Rust, and wire them up with
| GDScript. This seems super promising to me as far as Rust in
| game dev.
|
| https://godot-rust.github.io/
| Thaxll wrote:
| Rust will be nowhere in the next 10years for gamedev, not even
| sure it will be used at any point. The only one I know using it
| to some extend is Embark but they have a very good engineering
| culture ( ex DICE / SEED ).
|
| For people not working there, it's kind of a blackbox in term
| of tooling / pipeline etc ... when you work in webservices you
| have a ton of opensource knowledge / tools available, videogame
| are kind of different they re-invent a lot of the stuff in-
| house.
| steveklabnik wrote:
| One interesting development in this space: "Treyarch has been
| gradually integrating Rust into our tools and pipeline since
| 2018."
|
| https://research.activision.com/publications/2021/09/the-
| rus...
|
| Not in the actual games themselves yet that we know of, but
| still very cool!
| mustache_kimono wrote:
| I think this is sadly true. If you follow Game Devs with
| Large, Fragile Egos Twitter (I'm not naming names!), you'll
| hear a lot of "I hate (but secretly also love) C++ (because I
| know it intimately)" and "Rust isn't the answer" because they
| can't iterate fast enough.
|
| My guess is that's probably a function of them thinking they
| can learn Rust in a weekend, because they are 10x-ers,
| instead of any inherent problem with the language. There is
| also a machismo aspect to C/C++, especially in game dev ("I
| eff with raw pointers all the time!").
|
| But, if you read the article, Tim Sweeney seems to be saying
| "I want a fast functional language" which Rust is. One thing
| I am less clear on is whether Rust is better re: modularity
| and extensibility.
| eska wrote:
| Your first paragraph sounds so unprofessionally dismissive
| that I doubt anyone reads the second.
| ben0x539 wrote:
| As a data point, I read the second paragraph.
| mustache_kimono wrote:
| Are you saying you've never encountered an engineer with
| a large, fragile ego? Because lucky you.
|
| I guess I'd also say there is another, more mature side
| that takes Rust much more seriously, even on Twitter,
| such as John Carmack. I didn't know this needed to be
| said but _not all game devs have fragile egos_ , but,
| wow, some certainly do.
| generichuman wrote:
| > Tim Sweeney seems to be saying "I want a fast functional
| language" which Rust is.
|
| He also wants a garbage collector (pg. 57) and Pascal / ML
| family syntax (pg. 58). He clearly wants https://nim-
| lang.org/.
| fprotthetarball wrote:
| > He clearly wants https://nim-lang.org/
|
| I think a lot of people want Nim, but either don't know
| about it, or some language feature turned them off. There
| are a few polarizing language design choices, but every
| language has something. Perhaps it just needs a killer
| app using it in some visible fashion (e.g., Lua in Neovim
| and Hammerspoon).
| mustache_kimono wrote:
| > He also wants a garbage collector (pg. 57) and Pascal /
| ML family syntax (pg. 58). He clearly wants https://nim-
| lang.org/.
|
| Since this was written in 2005, Rust/the Rust model
| didn't exist, so maybe Rust is memory managed/ML enough?
| But I am interested in looking at Nim. Had no idea it was
| ML influenced.
|
| And I think I read in another comment Sweeney hired an
| engineer to write a new language called Verse.
| generichuman wrote:
| > Rust/the Rust model didn't exist
|
| FYI Nim also follows the Rust model with sink/lent
| annotations[0] + optimizes the (not yet default)
| automatic reference counting with static analysis so that
| RC overhead is minimized. Nim is like something between
| Pascal / Rust / Python, not sure why it is not more
| widely used.
|
| > Sweeney hired an engineer to write a new language
| called Verse.
|
| Not just an engineer, Simon Peyton Jones:
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simon_Peyton_Jones
|
| [0] https://nim-lang.org/docs/destructors.html
| adamrezich wrote:
| why would a preference for the use of raw pointers indicate
| "machismo"?
|
| do you think there's any possible other reason why game
| developers would choose to not use rust aside from some
| hypothetical jerkbag strawman that exists in your mind? is
| it possible that there's any practical reasons you haven't
| considered?
| mustache_kimono wrote:
| > why would a preference for the use of raw pointers
| indicate "machismo"?
|
| Ugh. That's not what I meant/said. What I meant was that
| there can exist a certain belief that there is only one
| way of doing things, when in fact there may be several.
| And there can be a belief that, because one has
| experience dealing with the most unsafe and bug ridden
| things, that experience is somehow necessary everywhere
| and all the time.
|
| Perhaps you might try to address the question at hand, is
| there a certain amount of machismo re: C/C++ in game dev?
| Heck, everywhere?
|
| > do you think there's any possible other reason why game
| developers would choose to not use rust aside from some
| hypothetical jerkbag strawman that exists in your mind?
|
| Oh, totally. I'm reading the comments and looking for
| exactly these sorts of serious, interesting criticisms.
|
| However, from what I've seen, some game dev criticisms
| have been pretty shallow _from certain segments of that
| community_. In another comment, I explain there are some
| game devs that have gone really deep on Rust and have
| really interesting things to say about it. My fear is
| simply that the more shallow sentiments of these high
| profile enfants terrible will take hold, because they
| often do.
| adamrezich wrote:
| if you're actually interested in learning different
| perspectives from people who have done significant work
| in the field and you're willing to stomach someone who I
| have to presume is one of these "large fragile egos" or
| whatever other vague terms you want to use about vague
| people vaguely (this passive-aggression is rather
| unbecoming), I personally found this comment, and the
| rest of the thread, to be very enlightening with regards
| to how I think about memory management in video game
| development and why rust's lifetimes maybe aren't the
| best solution for the problem domain
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26443768#26451692
| (specifically the numbered list of memory usage patterns
| and the ensuing discussion about them)
| mustache_kimono wrote:
| I hadn't seen this, and I will read it.
|
| FTR, I'm not talking about jblow. I acknowledge his
| criticisms are superficially similar to what I wrote. At
| the very least jblow is seriously engaging with the
| arguments re: Rust, like in this thread. As to whether
| he's actually seriously tried to learn Rust, I'm unsure.
| I hope he does.
|
| And I'm not naming names not to be passive aggressive,
| but for self preservation. I don't know if you noticed,
| but games can have a really toxic fandom.
| psyc wrote:
| I thought about this for a bit, because at first I
| thought you were making up a rather insulting caricature
| that could only detract from your case, or at least from
| anyone wanting to engage with you. I've been in C++ game
| dev for something like 25 years, and I'm sure I have
| never encountered a programmer who acted like using
| pointers was any more impressive than using the alphabet.
| That goes for any daily-use language feature not
| including all the optional C++ esoterica. We don't even
| talk about using pointers, we just use them. We no
| kidding talk more about how to use curly braces than how
| to use pointers. But then it occurred to me that perhaps
| that's only true amongst ourselves, where we don't have
| as much to feel defensive about. It's just silently
| understood that pointers are basic. But maybe if a C++
| programmer were talking to a Rust programmer or any other
| language with a higher level memory paradigm, and if it
| was a conversation about whose language was best for
| what, then maybe they would feel defensive and need to
| act a bit superior.
|
| Or, perhaps when you say they act big about using
| pointers, do you mean that they act big about using
| pointers _safely_? Because that is different. That 's a
| conversation I began declining to have because I no
| longer believe it's possible for a person who is trying
| to use C++ for a task, and has already decided it is the
| best available tool for that task, to have that
| conversation with pretty much anybody without it
| devolving into a pissing match.
| mustache_kimono wrote:
| > But maybe if a C++ programmer were talking to a Rust
| programmer or any other language with a higher level
| memory paradigm, and if it was a conversation about whose
| language was best for what, then maybe they would feel
| defensive and need to act a bit superior.
|
| There is a reason "I will never be able to get the
| control I need (but _I don 't know_)" or "I'll have to
| use unsafe everywhere (but _I haven 't tried_)" are anti-
| Rust tropes. It's possible for certain game dev patterns
| to be awkward in Rust (really interested in hearing more
| about these!), but these other criticisms smell less like
| highly relevant informed criticism, and more like one
| hasn't tried Rust, as much as surface-level, mole hill
| criticism of hypothetical or pathological instances of
| bad syntax do.
|
| It isn't that one uses raw pointers. It's much more an
| attitude I've witnessed in younger programmers that if
| they're not doing it in C/C++, they're not doing _the
| thing_. It 's about vibes as much as anything else, and I
| think, when their heros use their own vibe-level
| criticisms, they only reinforce that perspective.
|
| > Or, perhaps when you say they act big about using
| pointers, do you mean that they act big about using
| pointers safely?
|
| No, I wasn't thinking of that, but that's another part of
| it. And now that you mention it, " _My code_ doesn 't
| have any of these issues" can be yet another defensive
| tact.
| adamrezich wrote:
| really? "anti-Rust tropes"?
| mustache_kimono wrote:
| If you don't actually know, and haven't actually tried
| Rust? _Yeah, maybe_.
|
| Do you have something you'd like to offer the discussion?
| adamrezich wrote:
| it's just that the specific phrasing of "anti-_______
| tropes" is usually reserved for something much more
| severe than criticizing a programming language...
| mustache_kimono wrote:
| Gosh, if I knew I'd be dealing with the your-specific-
| phrasing-makes-me-uncomfortable police today, I would
| have worn pants.
| munk-a wrote:
| A lot of game development happens under the pressure of
| _constant_ crunch and low budgets. I 'm not just talking
| about EA and their constant penny pinching but small studio
| releases are a huge gamble with a steep upfront cost (Sean
| Murray, the face of Hello Games that released No Man's Sky,
| famously took out a large personal mortgage against his
| house to keep the studio afloat) and no guarantees of
| success after release - games can fail for the most absurd
| reasons.
|
| I think a lot of game programmers will keep an iron grip on
| using C/C++ for a while simply because they don't have the
| luxury of exploring other options. That said, I think Rust
| is exceedingly well designed to supplant C/C++ - game
| development really wants to minimize runtime failure cases
| and push more errors onto the compiler and static analysis
| due to the size and complexity of the project and Rust
| manages to deliver that without compromising on the
| performance needs - Go was a similar hopeful for a while
| but the lack of exception throws even under controlled
| situations is very difficult to deal with (I know you can
| panic and catch panics but it is a very rudimentary
| system).
| mustache_kimono wrote:
| > I think Rust is exceedingly well designed to supplant
| C/C++ - game development really wants to minimize runtime
| failure cases and push more errors onto the compiler and
| static analysis due to the size and complexity of the
| project and Rust manages to deliver that without
| compromising on the performance needs
|
| I hope so!
| summerlight wrote:
| Not so sure about this, it may take quite a time. It's not
| because of language's strength or weakness but simply because
| the upfront cost of building a modern game engine from scratch
| is getting more expensive and expensive. It's going to take a
| decade to build a competitive ecosystem against Unity or
| Unreal, assuming the best scenario.
| speed_spread wrote:
| I love Rust, but it's "righteous" nature might go against the
| grain in many game shops where quick and dirty is not only
| accepted practice but where anything more rigid than C is
| deemed necessarily inferior. Something like Zig might have a
| better chance in that space.
| msmenardi wrote:
| You can always use "unsafe" code in Rust. At that point
| you're basically writing a block of code in C++ with the
| guarantee that it'll interface correctly with all your other
| "safe" code.
| Jensson wrote:
| Have you ever tried writing significant amounts of unsafe
| rust? It isn't like C++ at all, you get the worst of both
| worlds.
| generichuman wrote:
| Zig also tries to block quick-and-dirty stuff, unused
| variables are errors for example. There are formatting
| related things too.
|
| This is obviously not as "righteous" as Rust as you put it,
| but when you look at the source of some shipped games, you'll
| see that some programming best practices are ignored.
|
| None of this will block Zig from being used in games, of
| course, but I wish they had a "let me work in peace until I
| get this working and then we can worry about that small
| stuff" mode in the compiler.
| zaphar wrote:
| I think the reasons languages like Zig choose not to make
| this configurable is because other than the odd exception
| occasionally very few shops bother to turn on the stricter
| mode or are actively hostile to the stricter mode.
|
| And when you rely on other libraries that sort of less
| strict mode tends to start leaking out everywhere since
| that one critical library you really don't want to rewrite
| won't compile when you use strict and you don't want to
| carry a bunch of patches for it either.
|
| The net result is if you don't start out enforcing
| cleanliness your community of users will unintentionally
| devolve into unclean over time.
| generichuman wrote:
| > The net result is if you don't start out enforcing
| cleanliness your community of users will unintentionally
| devolve into unclean over time.
|
| Well since the package manager will be integrated to the
| compiler, I think they could enforce the cleanliness for
| people who want to publish their libraries.
| adamdusty wrote:
| Why not just enforce it in release configuration?
| runevault wrote:
| There are at least some studios using Rust. Chucklefish did
| for a while though they ended up stopping. Ready at Dawn was
| using Rust at one point but not sure if they still are.
| Embark still is so far as I can tell.
|
| It certainly isn't a language for every gamedev shop but some
| seem to be taking it seriously.
| littlestymaar wrote:
| Are there game studios out there still using C? From what
| I've heard the majority is using C++, so switching Rust just
| makes your life easier without changing too much (C++ devs
| already uses templates, smart pointers, RAII, etc. which Rust
| has too, but with a better design (a stronger type system,
| and also hindsight from 30 years of C++)).
|
| From what I've seen on HN, Zig seams to appeal people who
| like the "simplicity" of C and find Rust too complex, but I
| don't think anyone coming from C++ could find Rust "too
| complex" (a bit different, with a learning curve indeed, but
| not "too complex").
| z3phyr wrote:
| > C++ devs already uses templates, smart pointers, RAII,
| etc.
|
| These are frowned upon in the game industry circles. Most
| of the game code is C style C++ with occasional function
| overloading and classes.
| ska wrote:
| I don't know much at all about game development circles,
| but have a fair appreciation of others areas using c or c++
| for combinations of high performance, low level, bare
| metal, etc. I've found some shops that very specifically
| use c, but other that use "c++" but that means "pretty
| c-like, with a few c++ features but don't you dare do
| x,y,z". Some of these variants are pretty simple, but it's
| enforced by code/design review (and sometimes tooling) not
| the language.
| junon wrote:
| I'm writing a kernel in Rust, having a great time. I'm not
| sure what all the arguments here about it not being suitable
| for game dev are but I would imagine it works perfectly for
| game dev.
| throwawaymaths wrote:
| Suppose you wrote a kernel in rust. Now there has been a
| CPU regression and you have to implement a retpoline.
| Obviously you don't want to implement it in places where
| you don't have to. Would this be easy? Or hard?
| dxuh wrote:
| I am sure it will happen, but (in my opinion) there is no way
| that it will gain significant popularity. It's just too high
| friction and in game development being low friction is imho one
| of the most important attributes of a programming language.
| cardanome wrote:
| Rust itself is high friction but the Bevy Engine is offering
| a ECS System with delightful ergonomics.
|
| So while I share the general sentiment, who knows, it might
| actually work out. Maybe Rust can be tamed.
| wly_cdgr wrote:
| Cool. So, C++ it is, then, for our next real game
| danschuller wrote:
| I'd be interested to see some non-text super-IDE integrated
| programming languages. Maybe even hosted in the webbroswer. I
| think that's interesting territory that can unlock a lot of
| value. Simple instant variable renaming, far better commenting
| and interactive debugging that can all be stripped from a
| compiled final version etc.
| runevault wrote:
| Have you looked at visual scripting which is popular in games?
| It may or may not be what you want but it is non-textual way of
| creating logic. UE has Blueprints, Unity has Bolt (as well as
| 3rd party ones available on their asset store, but Bolt is the
| one Unity purchased). Godot had one though it is being taken
| out of the core engine in 4.0
| dang wrote:
| Related:
|
| _The Next Mainstream Programming Language: A Game Developer's
| Perspective (2005) [pdf]_ -
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30139794 - Jan 2022 (1
| comment)
|
| _The Next Mainstream Programming Language: A Game Developer 's
| Perspective_ - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2802897 -
| July 2011 (1 comment)
|
| _The Next Mainstream Programming Language: A Game Developer 's
| Perspective (2006)_ -
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2044261 - Dec 2010 (18
| comments)
|
| _The Next Mainstream Programming Language: a game developer 's
| perspective_ - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1296608 -
| April 2010 (22 comments)
|
| _The Next Mainstream Programming Language: A Game Developer's
| Perspective_ - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1029820 - Jan
| 2010 (14 comments)
| [deleted]
| rnk wrote:
| That slide deck is pretty interesting just to see the 10k foot
| vision of a game. I'm working at that level in infrastructure
| software and the vision of what comes together for the game
| development and design is fun to see.
| pelagicAustral wrote:
| Jonathan Blow has been working for ages on a new programming
| language that seemed pretty cool last time I checked. Joi, i
| think it was called.
|
| Overall just looked like a more comfy C++ designed specifically
| for game development.
|
| Correction: the language is called Jai https://inductive.no/jai/
| Joi is Ana de Armas AI version.
| generichuman wrote:
| The community library wiki will probably be more useful to
| people who don't want to watch a bunch of videos:
| https://github.com/Jai-Community/Jai-Community-Library/wiki
| [deleted]
| doodpants wrote:
| Just to be pedantic: the command is jai.exe, and the source
| file extension is .jai, so everyone calls the language Jai.
| Except Jonathan Blow, who only ever refers to it as "the
| language" in his videos. I vaguely recall him saying in an
| interview that he doesn't want to commit to a name just yet.
| pelagicAustral wrote:
| Ah! thats pretty cool. I wasn't aware of that.
| SleepyMyroslav wrote:
| Its funny how nothing of that actually got implemented.
|
| Instead we have visual scripting to allow people that cannot
| program at all to contribute.
|
| There are no near future improvements that fit game development
| people. All people who could have been creating and using new
| languages are not even going to go to job interviews. Because
| ads, fin-tech and web are paying a lot more.
| silvestrov wrote:
| > All dereference and array accesses must be statically
| verifyable, rather than causing sequenced exceptions
|
| This is such a pipe dream. In so many cases you will not be able
| to verify array index statically except by having the programmer
| write assert statements which the compiler could do automatically
| when it can't prove correctness (like the java JIT which can lift
| out bounds checking from loops).
| mcagri wrote:
| that font...
| Tomte wrote:
| Yeah, isn't it great?
|
| Oh, and see what SPJ has to say about quirky fonts:
| https://graphicdesign.stackexchange.com/questions/38226/what...
| [deleted]
| barrysteve wrote:
| It isn't 'just fashion'. I agree with SPJ that what we are
| all here for, is the content of the education, not how it's
| presented. The problem is that a good font makes it easier
| for people to relate to the content.
|
| Having a comedy font for a dead-serious funeral company
| technically communicates the required information, yet it's
| going to limit your audience to those that can tolerate the
| conflicting tones and the people who will choose to relate to
| what you're trying to say.
|
| It's really so difficult to press CTRL-A and select a
| different font? Would it cost him so much to relate a little
| closer to the tried and true methods?
| [deleted]
| willyt wrote:
| I agree, it's like clothes, sometimes it is appropriate to
| dress up if you want people to view what you are saying
| through a certain lens, wether that is wearing gold
| cufflinks to your job as a banker or wearing a hoodie to
| your job at Facebook it all signals something. Computer
| games are a visual medium, where aesthetics is very
| important, I'm not sure I would want to signal that I don't
| care about aesthetics to my audience, presumably quite a
| few of whom will be designer/programmer/artists type people
| (whatever you call front end in game dev).
| Tomte wrote:
| Tim Sweeney is a game development legend. He could put
| handwriting on these slides and people would read it.
|
| Did HN's reverence for John Carmack drop because he
| dabbled in rockets, instead of doing "proper
| programming"? Stars can afford to be eccentric.
|
| I wouldn't recommend slides like these to a normal game
| developer giving a speech. But it's preposterous to claim
| that it might hurt Tim Sweeney in any way.
| opyate wrote:
| Nothing is more "proper" to me than working on an AGI :)
|
| https://uk.news.yahoo.com/john-carmacks-agi-startup-
| raises-2...
| Tomte wrote:
| There is no readability argument here with just short
| phrases and bullet points, so your stance is purely
| middlebrow gatekeeping.
|
| SPJ and Tim Sweeney don't care about people who are only
| willing to listen when the other one does it "the right
| way". They put something out and if you don't like it, you
| can leave it unread.
|
| I like good fonts, I have bought several "serious fonts"
| for private use that cost serious money. I would never use
| Comic Sans in larger texts. I wouldn't probably use it
| myself anywhere.
|
| But this here is whimsical, and cool, and fun.
| barrysteve wrote:
| I agree no readability argument. The relatability and
| tone argument is what I wrote.
|
| SPJ and TS don't have to relate to me, or anyone if they
| so wish. Just making the point SPJ's argument is quite
| poor, whatever "brow-level" it exists at.
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