[HN Gopher] I Love My PinePhone
___________________________________________________________________
I Love My PinePhone
Author : todsacerdoti
Score : 151 points
Date : 2022-08-26 10:40 UTC (12 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (jakob.space)
(TXT) w3m dump (jakob.space)
| chriswarbo wrote:
| I've had quite a similar experience; having a Pinephone for about
| 18 months. As the article mentions, many things are nice and
| familiar when we have a normal Linux stack, like cron jobs, bash
| scripting, SSH, etc.
|
| I can't actually relate to e.g. the Android comparisons, since
| prior to my PinePhone I was running Debian on an OpenMoko
| Freerunner (since 2008, before Android was released!).
|
| The article mentions the "convergence" dongle and keyboard case,
| both of which I have:
|
| The convergence dongle is a great idea, but I can't quite get it
| to work. In particular, I can't get power at the same time as
| peripherals; so any time I'm using a keyboard+mouse+monitor the
| phone's battery is quickly draining. The USBC connection is also
| annoyingly loose, compared to another dongle I've got (although
| that doesn't have power passthrough at all).
|
| The keyboard case is certainly bulky, but I don't mind; and the
| extra battery life would consistently last all day unplugged.
| Unfortunately, it stopped charging a while ago, and I'm not sure
| why; maybe a software update, maybe I blew the charging circuitry
| by connecting the wrong port (the manual warns not to do this!)
|
| The keyboard is pretty pleasant to use, either hand-held with two
| thumbs, or "properly" on a flat surface. I've completely disabled
| the on-screen keyboard, so using the phone feels less
| claustrophobic. I can't imagine using Emacs with an on-screen
| keyboard, but with the keyboard case it's great.
|
| The keyboard provides an extra USBC port for charging, which
| could solve my issue with the convergence dongle: have power
| plugged into the keyboard, and the dongle+peripherals into the
| phone. Unfortunately, they don't both work at the same time.
| Hopefully this could be hacked around in software, but
| kernel/firmware hacking is still a bit beyond me :(
|
| As for OS: I've been using the supplied Manjaro. I've managed to
| boot NixOS Mobile on an SD card, but only as far as the TTY login
| prompt ;)
| csydas wrote:
| The biggest surprise for me from this article is that the author
| didn't like Newpipe, which is surprising for me. I know that it
| breaks every couple of weeks when Youtube changes something to
| mess with youtube-dl/newpipe/other systems, but usually within a
| few hours someone has a dev-build out with the fix, and the main
| branch gets the fix within a day or two, if that even. I actually
| think their choice of FDroid is what made the experience painful
| as it does lag behind I've noticed and I guess it conditions you
| to wait for the update instead of check the issues and pull a
| temporary apk. (I like newpipe so much that as a reluctant
| android user, I have second thoughts on going back to iOS since
| I'm not aware of any newpipe equivalent (happy to be shown
| otherwise!))
|
| Overall based on the author's commentary I get why they might
| like something like the PinePhone as it's less about what it is
| and more what it represents. Hopefully these phones get to a more
| stable space in some years.
| the_pwner224 wrote:
| There's a NewPipe repository which you can add to F-Droid. That
| gets updates as soon as they are released.
| agluszak wrote:
| I hope some day we'll be able to get rid of Apple-Google
| smartphone duopoly. Free and open-source, privacy-respecting,
| hacker-oriented software on PCs has been around basically
| forever, whereas the situation with (mainstream) smartphones is
| getting worse and worse each year.
|
| Remember being excited with new AOSP features[1], not the "AI-
| powered", proprietary nonsense Google has been cranking out
| recently[2]? Remember rooting?
|
| [1] - https://www.androidpolice.com/google-io-2022/ [2] -
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Android_version_history
| hbn wrote:
| I went into this with an open mind, like maybe breaking yourself
| off your typical smartphone goto's of Apple/Samsung/Google is a
| more doable experience these days. But I'm a few paragraphs into
| this and it's already highlighting how everything just seems like
| hell.
|
| - Lost his SD card with the photos he took the day he got the
| phone. I haven't lost a photo since I started auto-backing them
| up with Google Photos in 2014
|
| - Photo of the leaflet which I assume was taken with the
| PinePhone looks like it's from a 2008 smartphone
|
| - Seemingly case options are so limited he went straight to 3D
| printing one? Perhaps that was just for fun
|
| - Had to use a glass screen protector made for an iPhone that
| works good enough but doesn't fit exactly
|
| - The phone shuts down on impact(!!!)
|
| I can't imagine putting up with this for a day before giving up
| and buying a normal smartphone. I guess if you're really into
| tinkering and you view these issues as fun problems to be solved
| it's fine, but I want to think about my phone as little as
| possible. Someone texts me, I read it, reply, and shut it back
| down. I don't want to potentially wait through a reboot because I
| bumped it wrong, or concern myself about photo backups.
| godshatter wrote:
| The downside to your solution of saving photos is that Google
| has all of your photos. I'm guessing a lot of people buying a
| PinePhone don't want that. Here's hoping you never run afoul of
| a random Google account cancellation.
|
| The PinePhone isn't popular enough for an after-market case and
| screen protector industry to pop up yet.
|
| But, yes, if all you want is a rock-solid experience with a
| smart phone, the PinePhone is not (yet?) for you.
| kop316 wrote:
| > - Lost his SD card with the photos he took the day he got the
| phone. I haven't lost a photo since I started auto-backing them
| up with Google Photos in 2014
|
| There are plenty of ways to back up your photos? Syncthing,
| Nextcloud, rclone, GNOME Online Accounts (Supports Google and
| Nextcloud). I personally use rclone and it works very well.
|
| > - Photo of the leaflet which I assume was taken with the
| PinePhone looks like it's from a 2008 smartphone
|
| ok and?
|
| > - Seemingly case options are so limited he went straight to
| 3D printing one? Perhaps that was just for fun
|
| https://pine64.com/product-category/smartphone-accessories/
|
| https://pine64.com/product/pinephone-soft-tpu-protective-cas...
|
| https://pine64.com/product/pinephone-hard-protective-case/
|
| https://pine64.com/product/pinephone-back-cover/
|
| > - Had to use a glass screen protector made for an iPhone that
| works good enough but doesn't fit exactly
|
| https://pine64.com/product/pinephone-tempered-glass-screen-p...
|
| I seem to recall I got a glass protector with my PP, but I
| can't recall for sure.
|
| > - The phone shuts down on impact(!!!)
|
| I had a Pixel 3a that hard broke and would no longer turn on
| after I dropped it. I know someone else that even with gently
| handling, the Pixel 3a's display just broke. I on the other
| hand have dropped my PP a few times with only scratches on the
| surface.
| randomusr00 wrote:
| I am happy to see efforts in developing alternative platforms for
| mobile phones, specially focused on the free philosophy of
| GNU/Linux but I wish these kind of posts were a bit more down to
| earth.
|
| I understand that the author is quite happy to have a Linux phone
| but all of the good parts (even the killer feature emacs) could
| have been achieved with a LineageOS phone with no Google Apps.
|
| Saying "I am really happy with this purchase!" and then in the
| same breath mentioning that the battery life is quite bad,
| connectivity is flaky at best, the phone doesn't wake up from
| suspend and suspend prevents the alarm from working... it's quite
| disingenuous.
| linmob wrote:
| Different priorities don't make OP disingenuous. If you want to
| run a mostly free software stack and Emacs, LineageOS is
| definitely way worse than PinePhone [1].
|
| Alarms do work, OP just missed the apps that make it possible:
| https://linuxphoneapps.org/categories/alarm-clock/
|
| Regarding connectivity: This really seems to depend on the
| hardware revision (OP's braveheart edition was the first
| available to the general public), the proprietary bits of the
| modem firmware, your carrier and maybe a bit luck: I am having
| less connectivity issues on my PinePhone than on my iPhone 13
| mini. Seriously.
|
| [1]: See https://mainline.space and contrast it with
| https://not.mainline.space
| LanternLight83 wrote:
| I'm setting up a static site, looking for inspirations, and was
| just looking at this blog yesterday to get a feel for it's Haunt
| theme! It's unique and gorgeous. Interesting comment system too.
| OTOH, the text is small on mobile and FF Reader Mode doesn't
| select the main context accurately, missing a portion of the
| article.
| ElCheapo wrote:
| On the other hand, I hate mine.
|
| Worse connectivity than the first cell phones from the 90s, worse
| applications than the first feature phones from the early 2000s,
| worse performance than the first smartphones from the late 2000s.
|
| As of today there is nothing really redeeming about it. Sure,
| some tech enthusiast can hack together a GTK application that
| shows his FOSS conference's schedule, but that's like having a
| spork in the middle of the amazon forest.
| hatware wrote:
| What phones in the 90's had 4G? 3G wasn't even around then was
| it?
| sylens wrote:
| Yeah, I am reminded of that scene in the Sorkin Steve Jobs
| movie, where Wozniak is excited to show Jobs his Nixie tube
| watch until Jobs points out that it looks like a detonator for
| a bomb
| [deleted]
| kaba0 wrote:
| I honestly don't understand how it can be slower than those
| feature phones, and yet it is. Sure, bigger screen resolution
| doesn't help, but those ran some interpreted Java..
|
| Does pinephones perhaps have some scheduling issues? That's the
| only thing I can think of, it either has way too many processes
| and/or the switching is way too frequent. But linux itself
| manages it quite well in my experience even on low-end devices
| so I honestly don't know.
|
| EDIT: I assume parent does as well, but I definitely meant the
| non-pro pinephone here. I don't have the pro one, but that
| presumably performs better.
| weberer wrote:
| The original Pinephone has an extremely weak processor. I
| wouldn't suggest getting the non-pro model.
| tpxl wrote:
| I still have and use a 2012 era phone and the interface is
| way smoother. The problem is the software, not the hardware
| :/
| rjsw wrote:
| I have a Pinebook, with the same CPU as the PinePhone, it
| doesn't seem all that slow when running at the highest
| frequency, would be interested to know what frequency the
| PinePhone typically runs at.
| linmob wrote:
| I have both (Book & Phone), and AFAIK they both run at 1.15
| GHz. I agree that they aren't slow if you adjust workloads
| and maybe expectations, but seemingly many commenters here
| (but also on, e.g., YouTube) aren't willing to do that.
| kaba0 wrote:
| I don't know, my android phone 2 devices before (sony
| _ericcson_ xperia x10 mini from 2010) was orders of
| magnitude smoother and faster (with 256MB of RAM!), and
| it didn't get scorching hot from simply being turned on.
|
| Honestly, try browsing the web for a few minutes and it
| gets uncomfortably hot. Actually, I wouldn't be surprised
| if some devices (mine included) have buggy hardware more
| so than the one you got, because I would expect much
| worse overall opinions otherwise.
|
| And arm is not a new compilation target, so I don't buy
| software differences being entirely the culprit, either.
| Worse battery life? Sure, that would explain it. But
| having trouble running a terminal and opening settings in
| 45 seconds is just criminal.
| linmob wrote:
| > Honestly, try browsing the web for a few minutes and it
| gets uncomfortably hot.
|
| I really haven't had that experience in quite a while. I
| am mostly running DanctNIX or postmarketOS 22.06 with
| Phosh and browse with Firefox (with uBlock Origin - I
| also have a second Firefox profile that has NoScript
| installed for sites that just have too much janky
| JavaScript) or Epiphany.
|
| It may help that the south of Germany is not super hot
| (just hot) and that I use Biktorgj's Modem firmware.
|
| Edit, example: I am writing this in Firefox on
| postmarketOS while having 4 other tabs open and also two
| more apps (Tootle and Secrets), and the phone isn't even
| slightly warm.
| peaslock wrote:
| How long does the battery last for you browsing like
| that?
| linmob wrote:
| That's something I really should try to measure. I would
| guess that it lasts a bit longer than two hours;
| definitely way longer than my PinePhone Pro. Battery life
| totally could be better (one coukld also see it as a
| feature to not mindlessly be on the phone all day), like
| OP I really hope for a battery case that's not as bulky
| as the keyboard case.
| megous wrote:
| It's a SW optimization issue. Pinephone can give smooth
| experience with optimized software (for example
| libreELEC/Kodi https://xnux.eu/log/videos/libreelec6.mp4).
| Typical GNOME desktop is just not optimized for ARM HW from 7
| years ago or so. It got better with GTK4, I think.
| kayodelycaon wrote:
| The casual mention of having to patch the on screen keyboard is
| rather amusing.
| linmob wrote:
| Might be a hardware issue. I only have later revision
| PinePhones and am typing this reply with Squeekboard just fine.
| incomingpain wrote:
| On my pinebook pro I had to flash the firmware on the keyboard
| and trackpad. Odd problem.
| incomingpain wrote:
| https://www.pine64.org/pinephonepro/
|
| 13MP camera is nice. Specs are certainly much improved. Probably
| enough for daily driver.
|
| My next phone though:
|
| Next battery tech, solid state?
|
| 88mp front cam as this is the threshold for beating film.
|
| depth cam that can 3d scan things for me.
|
| Sure sounds like iphone will get there first, pine could beat
| them to it.
| oneplane wrote:
| Doesn't matter how good the hardware is if the software can't
| make it useful for users, which is largely the problem here.
|
| Most of those 'high MP' cameras are also not really useful
| anymore without an ISP and those aren't available open-source
| (except perhaps with camera emulation and a fake CSI interface
| to the application processor cores).
| megous wrote:
| Some ISPs are opensource. Pinephone Pro's is, so this is not
| a problem for Pine64.
| oneplane wrote:
| The RK3399 does have a rather limited ISP, not something
| you'd want to pump 88M in. If you were to use only 1 camera
| and combine the two ISP nodes it has you'd have a maximum
| of 26M. This is also why they used a IMX258 as anything
| better would require to use the second interface for that
| single camera too.
|
| But to clarify: it's not really as much about "any ISP" as
| it is about a good ISP that can do multi-camera
| composition. The ISP in the RockChip SoC can't even do one,
| it mostly just does basic cropping/rotation/resizing and
| controls the PHY. While technically an ISP, it's more like
| an interface driver at this stage. The driver is open
| source, but the hardware isn't. That's not always a bad
| thing, as in this case the hardware doesn't run on any RT
| blob, it's mostly just a bunch of registers for (image)
| stream processing.
|
| I think in the android rom hacking world, most ISPs are
| used with their binary blobs (both firmware and kernel
| modules) but without the configuration and user land blobs,
| resulting in working cameras (at high pixel counts) but
| really bad image quality.
| megous wrote:
| RK3399 ISP does much more than cropping/resizing. (It
| can't do rotation, btw - if it can, I wanna know where
| you're getting your details from, because that would be
| _very_ useful :))
|
| It's still a bit basic, I'd like more, but there much
| more color and image correction controls than you're
| acknowledging
| https://www.kernel.org/doc/html/latest/userspace-
| api/media/v...
|
| There's also no firmware. It can be used as is without
| one.
|
| Lack of documentation is also not a huge issue, since
| rockchip manuals for all/most parameters of the ISP are
| findable on the net.
|
| What's missing are calibration tools. But those can be
| re-created from scratch. It's not terribly difficult.
|
| Just saying that there are FOSS supported ISPs available.
| RKISP10 is fully supported in mainline Linux. You can
| just use it via v4l2.
| oneplane wrote:
| IIRC the other operations are only supported on the other
| linux media framework (of which I can't remember the name
| - but it's the newer one than v4l2), and most examples I
| saw (a while back with a RK3399 dev board) were using
| libcamera at the time.
|
| It does indeed not need firmware, but higher end IPS
| blocks often do, especially when you get much higher
| bandwidth sensors per CSI channel.
|
| What I am wondering now about those calibration tools is
| if however they are built or reverse-engineered, they
| could read the pre-existing calibration payload.
| megous wrote:
| Whole of ISP uses v4l2. You communicate with ISP by
| sending specially formatted buffers (C structs docs I
| posted) via v4l2 buffers (the same interface you'd get
| image data, too).
|
| Preexisting calibration data are just XML files with
| params to load to the ISP and params to use to determine
| which set of params to load based on statistics collected
| from ISP (like after detecting what kind of light the
| scene has, you have to load params calibrated for that
| light type).
|
| (I do rotation via RGA, so maybe you mean that? That's a
| separate HW block, not part of ISP.)
| Jackim wrote:
| 88MP camera? I don't know if phone cameras will ever get there.
|
| edit: wow, did not realise how far phone cameras had come!
| fullstop wrote:
| There are quite a few phones available today which exceed
| that. Samsung Galaxy S22 Ultra, Huawei Nova SE 9, realme 8
| Pro, etc.
|
| The upcoming Moto X30 Pro has a 200 MP camera in it.
|
| edit: these are all rear cameras
| Jackim wrote:
| Wow! Thanks for the info.
| fullstop wrote:
| Of course! It's bonkers how far phone cameras have come
| over the last few years.
| ge96 wrote:
| But is it actually "good". Take a 40MP photo from a Lumia
| 1040 compare it with an A7R3 not really the same picture.
| fullstop wrote:
| A lot of the higher MP cameras are gimmicks. Lots of MP
| with a tiny sensor.
| gabi32 wrote:
| There are already phones with 108MP cameras [1], and my
| current ~200 EUR phone has a 64MP camera.
|
| [1]: https://www.smartprix.com/bytes/best-108mp-camera-
| phones/
| Jackim wrote:
| Pretty amazing, thanks for the link.
| incomingpain wrote:
| Samsung Galaxy S22 Ultra 5G is 108 mp.
|
| Motorola Moto X30 Pro is 200 mp.
| ben-schaaf wrote:
| > Sure sounds like iphone will get there first, pine could beat
| them to it.
|
| Pine64 doesn't make any of those components. High end
| components are also generally from manufacturers that don't
| share documentation, so entirely useless for Pine64's goals.
| fbanon wrote:
| Lol! You're pretty unhinged.
| incomingpain wrote:
| I was well downvoted.
|
| Could you explain to me why I'm unhinged? I didn't feel like
| I had posted anything controversial or whatever.
| em-bee wrote:
| having unrealistic expectations may be considered unhinged
| by some. we are still a bit far from having 3d scanners
| that fit on your pocket.
| incomingpain wrote:
| >having unrealistic expectations may be considered
| unhinged by some.
|
| I feel like I wasn't being unrealistic at all.
|
| solid state batteries exist today and can be bought.
| Obviously early in the commercialization but they do
| exist. Still unclear how safe they are.
|
| 88mp camera is less than what I can go buy from costco
| right now.
|
| 3d scanners totally fit in your pocket. I don't mean
| photogrammetry neither. The newer iphones have lidar that
| can scan. Newer androids have depth sensors or TOF
| sensors.
|
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r26OhSxBUXM
|
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_3UXeJWmEn8
| em-bee wrote:
| interesting, i had no idea. thanks!
| fbanon wrote:
| PinePhone couldn't even create a phone that can make voice
| calls properly like a Nokia 3310, yet you're envisioning
| them beating Apple (!) with rolling out some futuristic
| technologies.
| incomingpain wrote:
| >PinePhone couldn't even create a phone that can make
| voice calls properly like a Nokia 3310, yet you're
| envisioning them beating Apple (!) with rolling out some
| futuristic technologies.
|
| I believe I understand why you feel I am unhinged.
|
| I said, "Sure sounds like iphone will get there first,
| pine could beat them to it."
|
| Obviously I said iphone will win, I optimistically or
| enthusiastically said pine could put in the work and get
| there first.
|
| You feel I am unhinged because of optimism?
| robertlf wrote:
| (ROFLMAO) Given how dismally user-unfriendly most Linux versions
| are, you couldn't pay me to have a phone that runs on Linux.
| superdug wrote:
| You should probably avoid any phone that isn't an iphone
| then...
| nihilius wrote:
| https://archive.ph/HcmWG
| [deleted]
| 3np wrote:
| In a similar position as OP and recognize most of what they're
| saying.
|
| > Modem: Frequent disconnects, not receiving calls
|
| Something I believe to be observing is that the phone can stay
| consistently connected for days if stationary but as soon as I
| take it out for a drive or longer walk I immediately start
| getting the disconnects, which I so far have only been able to
| resolve by a full reboot[0). This seems to indicate that
| switching towers and/or disconnecting triggers it.
|
| > Bluetooth Audio
|
| At this point I'm realizing OP may have a masochistic leaning.
| But props for pushing and no kink shaming :)
|
| Aside from the modem dying, my biggest pain-point is absent in
| the post, despite running a fundamentally similar software stack.
| Ranfomly, audio will not work in calls. Sometimes it's flawless.
| Sometetimes I can not hear the other side. Sometimes the other
| side can not hear me. It happens often enough that it's barely
| worth the hassle to make phone calls if I can avoid it.
|
| Regarding TOTP apps:
| https://github.com/grumlimited/authenticator-rs is very close to
| being a nice experience. It's already functional and stable,
| needs what seems to be mostly a couple of simple UI tweaks.
|
| [0]: There are some pointers that I was not aware of tho,
| especially the state of baseband firmware; thanks!)
| kop316 wrote:
| For TOTP Apps, I recommend:
| https://sr.ht/~martijnbraam/numberstation/
| Kab1r wrote:
| I bought a PineTime, but a month after the warranty expired, it's
| accelerometer stopped working. It's a shame since I really enjoy
| having a custom watchface I wrote in c++.
| guywithahat wrote:
| I got one and had a terrible experience.
|
| They ship it from Hong Kong with no packaging foam, so it arrived
| with a broken screen. I contacted them about it and they gave me
| some trouble shooting things which didn't work and then told me I
| could pay to ship it to their service center, even though it
| shipped to me broken. They referred me to their return policy
| which at the time basically says the buyer assumes risk for the
| product if they ship it broken (which is a violation of Visa and
| Mastercard's seller's terms of service)
|
| I then had to fight them for months to get my chargeback, the
| whole time they were threatening me in childish ways and only
| after I won (because obviously, I don't know why they thought
| they had a chance) did they politely offer to pay for a return
| label.
|
| Horribly run company, if you order from them be sure to use a
| credit card or something with a chargeback capability
| Bakary wrote:
| In an ethical, commercial and legal sense, you are definitely
| entitled to a refund in these circumstances.
|
| But in a philosophical and aesthetic sense, if you can't fix
| the screen yourself, you might not be the target audience for
| this product.
| [deleted]
| omni wrote:
| I'll bite: how am I supposed to fix at shattered screen, at
| no additional cost to myself?
| Bakary wrote:
| You can't. That's why I made the distinction between the
| ethical and aesthetic aspect, and concluded that the GP was
| most definitely entitled to a refund. Since the legal and
| financial framework supports this logic as I do, they were
| able to turn that refund into a reality.
|
| A decent comparison would be wild, ad-hoc music festivals
| or raves. Nobody deserves to have painful experiences, and
| such experiences certainly do not have to be a fundamental
| part of these events. Nor should people be shamed for
| complaining after the fact. That said, it's also true that
| you have to approach these things with a certain mindset
| that's conducive to making the most of it. The comments I'm
| seeing here don't reflect that, even if I don't disagree
| with their arguments regarding commercial responsibility.
| tomxor wrote:
| You don't.
|
| These devices are sold close to cost price. Ethically the
| disclaimer still makes sense even if shipping killed your
| screen and not manufacturing.
|
| Although I'm surprised it's not possible to get the
| shipping company to foot the bill.
| vinaypai wrote:
| Shipping companies have pretty explicit limits on
| liablility unless you declare a higher value (and pay a
| fee). Of course they won't accept high value fragile
| items for shipment if they're not packaged adequately,
| which seems to be the case here.
| fzfaa wrote:
| As far as I know pinephone is a phone for software tinkerers.
| dannyw wrote:
| That experience is frustrating for sure, but for what it's
| worth, they basically sell these at cost with very little mark
| up.
|
| It's a store for hackers; it's not meant to be a consumer shop.
| I think they even warn you to not buy if you expect returns or
| customer service.
| paulcole wrote:
| > but for what it's worth, they basically sell these at cost
| with very little mark up.
|
| That's worth nothing.
|
| > it's not meant to be a consumer shop. I think they even
| warn you to not buy if you expect returns or customer
| service.
|
| Reminds me of: https://www.penny-
| arcade.com/comic/2004/03/24/the-adventures...
|
| "Wow! I didn't know you could even do that."
| JohnClark1337 wrote:
| michaelmrose wrote:
| The problem is that this amounts to a fantasy they wish were
| a thing. You aren't legally allowed to ship products to
| consumers broken and keep their money.
| cf141q5325 wrote:
| They have a bright red notice on the product page begging
| consumers not to order it. Doing it regardless and
| demanding it to be treated like an ordinary customer
| interaction makes sure that this approach will be less
| likely to be repeated in the future.
|
| I do not understand why somebody would do such a thing
| consciously. We have the situation that somebody wants to
| distribute the hardware at cost for development. And a big
| group of people who want exactly this deal. Why is there a
| need on a personal level to basically sabotage this? Or
| what am i missing that doesnt make this behavior really
| dickish?
|
| edit: And again, i am not talking about people who
| misunderstood what exactly was offered here. That absolutly
| shouldnt happen. I just dont understand why somebody would
| do this consciously.
| woojoo666 wrote:
| I think the idea is to create a minimum standard of
| service, so people have the same base expecations. If
| businesses started selling a lower-priced with zero-
| guarantees model (which is essentially gambling), it will
| become a race to the bottom with an abundance of
| scammers. It would be hard for users to tell if a certain
| price point means 20% chance of dead-on-arrival, or 80%.
|
| But these issues only occur at scale. As long as
| PinePhone is able to keep their zero-guarantees model
| under the radar, maybe it's fine
| cf141q5325 wrote:
| I absolutely understand the argument when it comes to
| ordinary commercial interactions. This isnt supposed to
| be one though. Its the solution to the problem how you
| can get hardware to developers as cheap as possible. I do
| not understand why anyone would insert themselves into
| this interaction.
| em-bee wrote:
| even if what you say is true, it should have been
| possible to properly wrap the package so that the phone
| inside doesn't get damaged. that doesn't cost to much.
| and if they can't cover the risk of damage with money
| back, they could offer insurance for that instead. i'd
| gladly pay a bit extra.
| cf141q5325 wrote:
| Not going to argue on that. I am just very confused by
| the sentiment of people ordering something as if it was a
| consumer product despite knowing the only reason they can
| get one is because they are using the mechanism for
| developers to get hardware at cost. Which means the
| obvious solution is stricter screening of who can get
| one.
| pdmccormick wrote:
| So add a very little bit more mark up to ship it correctly
| and to account for some percentage of returns due to shipping
| damage.
| walrus01 wrote:
| selling things at-cost or whatever is no excuse for shoddy
| packing methods
| lostgame wrote:
| That's not an excuse. In fact, smaller hacker shops more
| often than not provide a _better_ experience than most
| 'consumer' shops; and certainly better than the average
| massive corporation.
|
| It's the kind of place you can maybe talk to an actual human.
|
| It's not the kind of place where you break your Credit Card
| Merchant's rules and refuse refunds on items poorly packaged
| and broken on arrival.
|
| After reading OP's comment, I will never be ordering from
| this company, and I was highly considering it.
| cf141q5325 wrote:
| Why did you order it if you didnt agree with that policy? They
| warn you on the product page with giant red lettering. Did you
| not understand it? Or that it is not a consumer product?
| Analemma_ wrote:
| You can't disclaim responsibility for shipping a broken
| device no matter how many labels you stick on the site.
| cf141q5325 wrote:
| I understand the frustration if you got into this not
| understanding what was going on. In which case even more
| effort needs to be made to make sure such misunderstandings
| dont occur again. Thats why i am asking where exactly the
| problem stemmed from.
|
| If i personally send you a prototype at cost and you demand
| it to be treated like a normal customer interaction the
| result will be that i wont be sending out prototypes at
| cost to just anyone any longer. Thats quite the bummer for
| people who wanted one.
|
| So the question is how can we connect group A
| (manufacturer) and B(eager testers) without group
| C(Consumers) getting caught in the whole thing?
|
| edit: Not saying what Pine is doing is good or bad, but the
| core problem isnt specific to Pine and many tinkerers might
| end up in this situation one day. And charging above cost
| is extremely counterproductive in some situations because
| it locks out some developers.
| Analemma_ wrote:
| Again, you're missing the point: there is _no_ amount of
| clever verbiage that makes it ok to charge someone money
| to ship them a phone with a broken screen and make that
| person eat the cost. It doesn 't matter if you call it a
| "prototype" and say "you're not a consumer". It is not ok
| no matter what language you use.
|
| If you genuinely want people to be prototype/beta
| testers, give them the phone for free and then ask for it
| back at the end of the beta period. But the transaction
| occurring here is, fundamentally, a consumer transaction
| no matter what Pine wants to call it, and that comes with
| certain responsibilities which cannot be disclaimed,
| period.
| cf141q5325 wrote:
| I am not arguing that you dont have the rights as a
| consumer. You obviously have.
|
| I confused why somebody would claim them despite knowing
| that the only reason they can get a device in the first
| place is because they are ordering something that is not
| meant to be ordered by consumers. They arent priced in.
| You involved yourself into an interaction you werent
| supposed to be in. Because the fix for the problem at
| hand is no longer allowing just anyone to get a devkit.
| Because the whole point is to get the device to
| developers as cheap as possible.
| catskul2 wrote:
| There are so many boilerplate disclaimers that are
| meaningless, how can you possibly ask this question?
|
| If you stuck to "didn't you agree with that policy"
| perspective, you'd never get in a car, on a plane, or buy
| anything.
| chunk_waffle wrote:
| I ordered one a couple of months ago along with the keyboard
| case.
|
| The phone arrived in a week or two but the keyboard case was the
| big selling factor for me so I've barely used it while I await
| the keyboard.
|
| It shipped in June and still hasn't arrived. I contacted support
| and they said it seems to be wedged in US customs. The tracking
| number I have only shows China Post info and so I can't really
| confirm or deny that info. Rather unfortunate...
| nicoco wrote:
| The article mentions using chatty for SMSes which also happens to
| be an XMPP client, then a few workarounds to get discord and
| signal on their phone. It's shameless plug time for me, as I'm
| developing XMPP gateways for both these chat networks as part of
| my slidge[1] project. The only other user besides me was
| precisely interested in getting signal support on their
| pinephone.
|
| [1] https://sr.ht/~nicoco/slidge/
| benlower wrote:
| 2023 is the year of Linux on the phone!? :)
| thebetatester wrote:
| We seem to have HN hugged it.
| https://web.archive.org/web/20220826103546/https://jakob.spa...
| nivenkos wrote:
| It's a cool idea and I'd love to be able to use my phone as a
| full Linux desktop like the Steam Deck.
|
| But ultimately I mainly use my phone for the following:
|
| - Banking and government authentication - e.g. with BankID and
| Kivra in Sweden. This is necessary to send money, make payments,
| file taxes, etc. There's no way around it unless you want to deal
| with going to the few remaining bank branches in person and
| sending letters. Same for buying and using train + metro tickets.
|
| - WhatsApp - it's massively popular in Europe for communication
| and even some services. That said it is slowly losing ground to
| Telegram (and to a lesser extent Signal and Matrix).
|
| - As a camera. Most high-end smartphones have incredible cameras
| which means you never need to carry a camera with you for most
| things, this is pretty indisposable too.
|
| And unfortunately none of the GNU/Linux phones come close to
| solving those use-cases. Desktop convergence is great, but it's
| not worth giving up all of those. And if I have to carry an
| Android anyway, then I may as well just use my Steam Deck for the
| convergence (and gaming).
| dvdkon wrote:
| I agree about the picture quality, it's just too convenient to
| have a good-enough camera in my pocket, and I'll suffer with
| proprietary drivers if that's what it takes right now. I have
| to ask about banking and government apps, though.
|
| Here most (all?) banks still allow web access with 2FA through
| SMS or a physical key. Has that been phased out in Sweden? Our
| e-government services likewise have multiple authentication
| options, with a phone app, smartcard, USB key or other
| proprietary dongle serving as the second factor. I'm pretty
| sure this is implemented according to some EU standards, is
| this not the case elsewhere?
|
| I actually got a free USB and NFC FIDO 2-certified key as part
| of a promo, which I use for government services. I know it's
| not a panacea, but I trust it more than my smartphone.
| olau wrote:
| I wouldn't know about the situation in Sweden, but in other
| Nordic countries, you can get a little hardware TOTP device for
| bank and government authentication since they're not
| comfortable requiring everyone to have a computerized phone.
| You press a button and it spits out a 6 digit key that you
| enter.
|
| I realize this may seem backwards to some people, but I think
| using a hardware key is actually on the forefront of future
| best security practices. More complicated devices are simply
| too easy to hack.
| mxuribe wrote:
| > ...That said it is slowly losing ground to Telegram (and to a
| lesser extent Signal and Matrix)...
|
| As an admitted fanboy of matrix, I sure hope it gains more
| popularity. Not just because i like the protocol and associated
| technologies, but also because it can represent usage of
| something not propriatray for citizens. The more big
| insitutions like banks and gov. services that allow for use of
| non-propriatary tech stacks means that maybe more people can
| leverage them for engaging in more digital (and safe) ways.
| Further, i looke at the wechat model in China, where so much is
| done over that platform. Now, imagine as much can be done over
| an open, secure protocol..which if implemented optimally can
| perhaps in the future allow for phones/mobile devcices to be
| built still performant but lower cost allowiong for more folks
| on other side of digital divide to be able to buy and use
| them...to engage with orgs/insititutions/gov. for their
| benefit. (Clearly, my wishes here have lots of "ifs" and
| dependencies...but, hey, i can dream, right?)
| kop316 wrote:
| Depending on how motivated you are, Element One/Element Home is
| a good solution for WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal:
| https://element.io/element-one
|
| You can bridge all of those to a Matrix account and use a
| Matrix client.
| stiray wrote:
| I am reading the comments complaining about pinephone.
|
| Why dont you get yourself one of supported sailfish os phones and
| install sailfish?
|
| It works for me without issues for 2 years now and I can run
| android apps in lxc container (without them having access to any
| relevant data).
|
| https://sailfishos.org/
| ElCheapo wrote:
| Why are you suggesting proprietary software when talking about
| a device that exists mainly to run FOSS?
| mpol wrote:
| Different things for different people. You could want a FOSS
| phone. Or better privacy. Or a Linux experience with an ssh
| shell. Or all three.
|
| Sailfish gives a Linux experience. It is mostly, but not
| completely, FOSS. It is more privacy oriented than both main
| platforms from Google and Apple. For me it is a good
| compromise for now. For you, that might be different.
| stiray wrote:
| As i thought this is a question of having a linux on phone,
| not a political question. My answer is not adequate for
| political agenda (even if sailfish os is mostly FOSS), but it
| more than satisfies the technical (having linux on phone).
|
| Actually from all my experience, as a long time rom cooker,
| who was running angstrom on blueangel, before the android
| existed, sailfish is our best bet to dethrone google and
| apple. A small one, but there is at least a chance.
|
| Everything else is lagging too far behind on the verge of
| useless, as PinePhone has demonstrated.
|
| Just an example, my xperia 10 II phone is running sailfish
| without any hardware deficiencies, f.i.: bluetooth and
| fingerprint reader are running fine, working as expected.
| Battery life is excellent. There are maybe a few android ROM
| projects that can brag about that and quite frankly they are
| not very far from the AOSP.
| psanford wrote:
| I bought a PinePhone to use just as an SMS gateway++. My
| requirements is about as minimal as they come: it needs to stay
| connected to the cell network, wakeup when a new SMS comes in,
| and run my little gateway server that is listening for dbus
| messages. It often fails to do this simple task.
|
| It seems to not do a great job of staying connected to the cell
| network. And it also often doesn't wakeup for new SMS messages.
|
| I thought buying dedicated hardware that is designed to send and
| receive SMS would be better than buying a raspberry pi and an lte
| dongle, but I now regret that decision.
|
| I've not tried to use the PhinePhone as an actual phone, but from
| the little time I've been forced to interact with it, the UI is
| basically unusable. Its incredibly slow and unresponsive. Often
| times it will just lock up for no apparent reason. SSH'ing into
| the phone has been the only reliable way of interacting with it.
|
| ++ For the handful of services that refuse to work with Google
| Voice.
| linmob wrote:
| Which OS are you using? Did you try biktorgj's Modem Firmware
| (and additionally, the various proprietary releases, to see
| which one works best with your carrier)?
| krageon wrote:
| This person doesn't need the core features of a modern
| smartphone: consistent alarms and reliable connectivity. As such,
| it is no wonder they love the pinephone: it is essentially a tiny
| laptop!
|
| That said, I don't find this very compelling: I am in fact called
| by people and I don't think having to implement a hack around the
| system's sleep state is acceptable (especially given that it may
| still not be reliable, what with the dependability profile of the
| connectivity chipset). It may be more accurate to call this a
| Pine: Not much of a phone to be found.
| lostgame wrote:
| I've found a watch to be way more effective than any phone or
| other device I've ever tried at keeping a reliable alarm.
|
| And no; not a smartwatch that needs charging every day - or
| ever...just a timex that might need it's battery replaced every
| year or two.
|
| As far as reliable connectivity, dumbphones are way more rock
| solid than any smartphone could pretty much ever hope to be.
| chriswarbo wrote:
| I've not had OP's connectivity issues, so it works pretty well
| as a phone. Certainly better than my OpenMoko, which kept
| having audio issues requiring fiddling in /etc/alsa.conf
|
| I agree about alarms; but like OP, I only use them when the
| phone's plugged in overnight, and hence not suspended. For ad-
| hoc alarms on the move, I just use my digital watch.
| aa-jv wrote:
| Same here, no problems with connectivity on my PinePhones'
| (first edition and pro).
|
| Perfectly functional phones with the added advantage of
| hardly any spyware or other garbage, plus - if I wanna - I
| can leave it anywhere for an instant reverse tunnel. Handy
| for many, many things ..
| megous wrote:
| > That said, I don't find this very compelling: I am in fact
| called by people and I don't think having to implement a hack
| around the system's sleep state is acceptable
|
| Nobody has to implement hacks. There's a proper solution on
| Pinephone that can wake/power it on alarm. OP just doesn't know
| how to do it.
| simonh wrote:
| A proper solution would be that it just works.
| wartijn_ wrote:
| That's an unrealistic expectation of this phone. If you
| want thinks to just work you shouldn't buy a PinePhone and
| they make that really clear on their website.
|
| The sale page of the PinePhone says this in red letters[0]:
| "Beta Limited Edition PinePhones are aimed solely at early
| adopters. More specifically, only intend for these units to
| find their way into the hands of users with extensive Linux
| experience."
|
| And their wiki has this to say[1]:
|
| "Bear in mind that the software for these smartphones is
| very early, with most of the software being in alpha or
| beta state. That's especially also the case for scalability
| of applications, their availability and practicability, any
| hardware function implementations and the firmware. The
| software is provided as is. There is no warranty for the
| software, not even for merchantability or fitness for a
| particular purpose."
|
| [0] https://pine64.com/product/pinephone-beta-edition-
| linux-smar... [1]
| https://wiki.pine64.org/index.php/PinePhone
| megous wrote:
| It just works for me. It may not just work for you if you
| load your phone with some software that doesn't use the
| available features fully. But that's not really the problem
| of the HW itself.
| 0xedd wrote:
| Disable sleep state. Problem solved. I daily it as a simple
| phone and telegram.
| ge96 wrote:
| Yeah I like it for this too. What Samsung Dex was except not a
| $2K phone.
|
| The reliability on HDMI out is flaky though in my experience. I
| have both versions of Pinephone eg. Pro.
| immibis wrote:
| You could describe it as a Phone- _shaped_ Pine. Which is
| pretty cool all on its own.
|
| If I'd bought a PinePhone expecting a working phone, I'd be
| pissed. But as a hackable phone-shaped Linux platform, it's
| totally cool.
| [deleted]
| Inhibit wrote:
| Agreed. In addition my Pine phone needed a heatsink to handle
| 95+ degree weather. That's in the open air... when sitting in
| the pocket it radiated a scary amount of heat.
|
| They are a neat gadget. But I don't think they're more or less
| of a neat gadget than any other Quectel 25(?) based iot device.
| The phone form factor, for me, was rendered useless.
| Arnavion wrote:
| If you don't use WiFi, try turning the dip switch off. In my
| case it makes the phone 7-10 deg C cooler (~39 -> ~31). It'll
| also make your screen brighter; I can lower brightness from
| 25% to 0% for indoor lighting.
|
| (This is regardless of whether you're connected to a WiFi
| network or not. ie just disconnecting from a network isn't
| enough; you have to turn the dip switch off.)
| nousermane wrote:
| > core features of a modern smartphone: consistent alarms
|
| For me personally, this is one thing _missing_ from a modern
| smartphone. Many old-school GSM phones, when completely turned
| off (but battery still inside), if there is an alarm
| programmed, will turn on automatically few seconds before the
| programmed alarm, just in time to sound on the dot.
|
| Very useful, and exactly what I want, when I go to sleep. You
| can sort of approximate that with "do not disturb" mode, but
| that drains a bit of battery (and traffic in cell data plan)
| uselessly.
| nequo wrote:
| > You can sort of approximate that with "do not disturb"
| mode, but that drains a bit of battery (and traffic in cell
| data plan) uselessly.
|
| Airplane mode helps too I find.
| phh wrote:
| Most smartphones do that, it's part of all SoC vendors' base
| code. However Google Pixels don't do that (which leads to no
| standard Android API available for that...)
| bestouff wrote:
| Did you know that this works on some modern smartphones ? At
| least my OnePlus 7TPro does wake up from an alarm when it's
| totally powered down.
| megous wrote:
| This works on pinephone and pinephone pro, too.
|
| On Pinephone, the RTC(has alarm support) is in the SoC and is
| always powered by PMIC even when the phone is off. PMIC can
| be configured to power up on interrupt signal, and SoC can be
| configured to pulldown the interrupt line on RTC alarm.
|
| On Pro RTC is inside PMIC directly.
|
| HW can do it. Alarm app just has to use the HW correctly.
| julienpalard wrote:
| True. There's a demo prooving it: https://wiki.mobian-
| project.org/doku.php?id=wake-mobile
|
| (Tested on my PinePhone on Mobian: it works!)
| megous wrote:
| Yep, all the alarm clock program really needs to do for
| this to work, is to setup a timerfd with
| CLOCK_REALTIME_ALARM flag set.
|
| Then timer firing will wake the system.
|
| That's pretty much it. Standard Linux feature across all
| systems that support system suspend and RTC wakeup.
|
| man timerfd_create
| Arnavion wrote:
| And for non-systemd systems like postmarketOS, there's
| waked that writes directly to the RTC dev node directly
| for the same effect. pmos also patches gnome-clocks to
| use waked.
| megous wrote:
| That's an "interesting" solution, since exactly what
| waked does is already done by kernel internally if you
| use timerfd, without the need for any special daemon. Any
| app that wants to be woken up at certain time can just
| register a timer for that time with the kernel.
|
| I wonder if waked writing directly to RTC doesn't break
| the kernel alarm functionality used by timerfd, but
| hopefully not https://gitlab.com/seath1/waked/-/blob/mast
| er/src/main.cpp#L...
|
| But why not, it's FOSS. :)
| londons_explore wrote:
| I'm pretty sure the chipsets in a modern phone still support
| waking up at a given time even from 'off' state.
|
| Just no OS exposes an API allowing that to userspace.
| BrandoElFollito wrote:
| This is the case for Xiaomi and I think for Samsung (I use
| both)
| responsible wrote:
| amelius wrote:
| We need something like WineHQ that can run iOS apps inside Linux.
|
| Many online applications are increasingly available only as
| native apps for the iOS/Android systems. Even governments are
| guilty of this.
|
| Without the ability to run my banking app or do basic
| interactions with postal services and government institutions,
| using a Linux phone is a no-go.
| Freak_NL wrote:
| Then you would want to be able to run Android apps surely? IOS
| apps are hyper-focused on a limited set of specific hardware
| produced by a single vendor. Not to mention that Apple sucks to
| develop for without actually having Apple hardware and Apple
| operating systems available.
| amelius wrote:
| I just want to be able to do basic things like banking
| without adware/spyware looking over my shoulders, which I'm
| guessing rules out Android?
| Freak_NL wrote:
| Whatever adware Google is shovelling isn't part of the app
| your bank provides, so it wouldn't be an issue in the wine-
| like layer you want. But as other commenters point out,
| lots of banking apps don't like running in an emulated
| device.
|
| If you want to use a banking app without Google or Apple
| dominating your device, look at something which defangs
| Android like GrapheneOS or LineageOS.
| immibis wrote:
| You're out of luck. The banking app is checking for your
| phone having a TPM signed by someone like Google or
| Samsung.
| weberer wrote:
| >Without the ability to run my banking app or do basic
| interactions with postal services and government institutions
|
| You can already do this with a web browser (in Linux, no less)
| babypuncher wrote:
| They mentioned that some services lacking a web interface and
| only offering iOS and Android apps.
| StingyJelly wrote:
| Android apps work quite well already using waydroid.
| Unfortunate thing about some banking apps is how they go out of
| their way not to run without play services and safetynet.
| linmob wrote:
| For those not familiar with PinePhone things: This blog post is
| about an early hardware revision, the Braveheart edition, which
| has quite a few hardware flaws that have been fixed since (see
| [1] for details). In particular, I've never seen that Squeekboard
| issue on my v1.2 and v1.2a revision PinePhones.
|
| Edit: Also, if you want to follow the topic of GNU-like Linux on
| mobile hardware, you may like my blog https://linmob.net
|
| If you wonder about apps for postmarketOS, Mobian etc.: I am also
| maintaining a project that attempts to list them all (and that
| needs your contribution): https://linuxphoneapps.org
|
| [1]:
| https://wiki.pine64.org/index.php/PinePhone#Hardware_revisio...
| ge96 wrote:
| If they could fix the wake problem on Pinephone Pro that's be
| great.
|
| Also not sure if Megous's work on the camera will make it to
| mainline (?) Or at least be installable anytime soon.
| jarbus wrote:
| I got a PinePhone, and I am a major advocate of FOSS. I purchased
| the phone primarily to monitor linux mobile development as it
| progresses.
|
| As someone who needs to use maps a lot, this phone is not daily
| driver ready. It's also a terrible experience for web-browsing
| and taking photos.
|
| That being said, I love the pinephone, not because of it's
| usability, but because of potential. SSHing into my phone and
| having my familiar linux filesystems and programs is a dream come
| true. It's truly incredible how far they've come with development
| on the hardware and driver side. The hardest problems are largely
| solved, and they are shipping devices to the community in hopes
| of fostering people to work on the remaining software problems
| and improving performance on the software side. I think Pine64
| and the Pinephone's contributions to Linux on mobile are
| enormous, even if they aren't perfect, and we are better off for
| having them.
| arberx wrote:
| Completely agree, this phone is not ready.
|
| The manjaro distribution is probably the most usable, but still
| needs a ton of work.
|
| Super fun to play with though.
| megous wrote:
| Software is not ready. But free software is never "ready". :)
| pdx6 wrote:
| I bought a PinePhone hoping to have some sort of freedom from iOS
| and at the time the threat of scanning all iCloud uploads.
|
| I played with the PinePhone for a few days, but it really is
| still a development phone. It has promise but it'll be sitting in
| a box until the ecosystem matures. I'm really hoping more serious
| work gets done in making it a daily driver for someone like me,
| who is very technical but doesn't have the time to figure out why
| the screen stays dim or how to load in a game that works.
| fsflover wrote:
| Most people who daily drive their Pinephones use Mobian Phosh,
| whereas the device comes with Manjaro KDE. You may want to try
| installing Mobian (and it's really simple).
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