[HN Gopher] IFixit: Self Repair Program makes M1 MacBooks less r...
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IFixit: Self Repair Program makes M1 MacBooks less repairable
Author : mikece
Score : 151 points
Date : 2022-08-24 15:41 UTC (7 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (9to5mac.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (9to5mac.com)
| srvmshr wrote:
| I glanced through the manual linked in answers elsewhere. The
| Apple manual is very detailed and lays out the risks you could
| potentially get into - and thats a good thing. At this point,
| iFixit criticism looks more like a rant. FWIW, Apple must be
| going through this process - its not like they have shortcuts
| they arent willing to part with.
| mensetmanusman wrote:
| 162 pages to replace the one degradable component. Apple sets the
| environment back by making this a hurdle, but it definitely helps
| their shareholders.
| cyral wrote:
| It's the repair manual for the entire machine, not just the
| battery.
| pilgrimfff wrote:
| Apple's self repair program exists for one reason - to mitigate
| regulatory scrutiny. They have no incentive to make it effective.
| rocket_surgeron wrote:
| >This time, along with the manuals, Apple is presenting DIY
| repairers with a excruciating gauntlet of hurdles: read 162 pages
| of documentation without getting intimidated
|
| I read the PDF.
|
| https://manuals.info.apple.com/MANUALS/2000/MA2083/en_US/mac...
|
| It seems highly likely to me that anyone claiming this document
| is intimidating either has not read it or is lying for some
| reason.
|
| In many respects, the Apple document is vastly superior to the
| iFixit guides.
|
| An example of that is that the Apple guide has more descriptive
| language to ensure that the user feels the correct sensations
| when performing a step.
|
| Here's the iFixit guide for replacing the antenna module:
| https://www.ifixit.com/Guide/MacBook+Air+13-Inch+Late+2020+A...
|
| iFixit: Pivot the spudger against the hinge to pry up the end of
| the antenna bar.
|
| Apple: Gently slide the flat end of the black stick below one of
| the four screw holes (1) to loosen the antenna module from the
| tape on the top case. Then rotate the black stick until you feel
| a click (2).
|
| Apple's instructions also include steps to perform if an action
| isn't "easy":
|
| iFixit: The antenna bar is secured with some adhesive and may
| require some force to dislodge.
|
| Apple: If the antenna module doesn't release from the tape,
| slowly and gently slide the black stick under the module to
| loosen it.
| mmastrac wrote:
| Apple: If the adhesive strip breaks, attempt to retrieve the
| rest of the strip with ESD-safe tweezers. If you can't retrieve
| the rest of the strip, replace the top case
|
| Jesus. This is not what I'd consider "repairable". And that's
| not the only place in the manual where Apple just says "toss
| the whole top case out".
| matt_s wrote:
| I replaced a screen on an iPhone 4 or 5 with a kit from
| iFixit. It was painful with the very basic tools provided and
| no magnifying glasses or understanding of what success was
| supposed to feel like. The parts aren't small, they are tiny,
| like 3mm screws, tiny bits of adhesive, things that are very
| fragile, etc. It took me like 3 hours. Experiences like that
| make me nope out of some DIY things.
| wiredfool wrote:
| I replaced the keyboard on a unibody era MBP. (2011 ish,
| the one with the dvd drive that needed to have the hard
| drive cable replaced every few years because it would wear
| at a corner and short against the case).
|
| It had 50+ absolutely tiny screws, requiring a 000 Phillips
| head, probably about the size of the little ones in iPhone
| 6s, but all about 2mm long.
| ectocardia wrote:
| I, too, suffered through this ordeal in the name of self-
| repair. The worst of it was having to, every now and
| then, file a slot into a tiny screw I'd stripped (#%!*)
| so I could continue with a flathead screwdriver.
| tpmoney wrote:
| Anyone who's ever repaired a car has encountered one form or
| another of a fastener or hose that breaks or drops and can't
| be easily removed because it's in a bad place, and leaving it
| where it is won't cause any harm. Does it really surprise us
| that small space computers would have their own version of
| this?
| josephcsible wrote:
| > leaving it where it is won't cause any harm
|
| But that's apparently not the case here:
|
| > If you can't retrieve the rest of the strip, replace the
| top case
| tpmoney wrote:
| Ah misunderstood the context here, I thought it was
| referring to cleaning up the adhesive after repair. Even
| still, there are plenty of bolts on a car that if you
| don't do the right things to remove them, you can shear
| them off. Fasteners of all kinds can be broken, if you
| break them beyond the ability of your tools, the manual
| is going to tell you to take it to a shop. You can break
| out the screw extractor from harbor freight, or weld a
| new head onto the stub. But it's unlikely the official
| repair manual is going to suggest that to you.
| kube-system wrote:
| Their lawyers probably didn't like:
|
| > If you can't retrieve the rest of the strip, forcefully
| remove the battery by jamming a pry tool under it.
|
| This is what other people do when those strips break.
| This is a service manual, not a binding contract. You can
| choose to service your device differently if you feel
| inclined to do so.
| borski wrote:
| True, though you may void the warranty depending on your
| chosen fix. :)
| alistairSH wrote:
| Sure, but rarely does the stuck fastener require the
| replacement of a car's major subsystem. Stuck bolt =
| replace engine? That's so rare it's hardly worth
| discussing. But with a Mac, stuck glue strip = replace half
| the laptop.
| tpmoney wrote:
| Depends on the car. There's an infamous bolt on the
| transmission of 6 speed 2nd gen Miata's. If you remove
| that bolt accidentally instead of the fill plug near it
| when replacing your transmission fluid, you will need a
| transmission rebuild/replacement. Likewise I would
| imagine if you shear off the crank bolt on a car while
| removing the crank pulley to do replace a water pump or a
| seal, you're probably in for a heck of a tear down, and
| depending on how bad it is to get it removed, maybe a
| bottom end rebuild to replace damaged parts.
|
| Heck we still live in a world where some cars with
| interference engines use timing belts instead of chains.
| Repair that 20 belt wrong and you will indeed need a
| whole engine, and that assumes your got to it before it
| broke and ruined your engine for you.
| michaelmrose wrote:
| There was a notable case where road debris hit fitting on
| a 2 psi coolant line in a Tesla and the owner was told
| they would have to pay $16,000 for a new battery pack to
| deal with damage to a flange on the line out of pocket
| because no insurer would pay to replace a $16,000 battery
| for want of a 5 dollar piece of plastic.
|
| The solution was a slightly more expensive $15 piece of
| metal and $700 in labor.
|
| If you look at how new appliances are made with difficult
| to replace electronics which ought to be trivially
| replaceable for cheap if you weren't getting bent over by
| the manufacturer you might begin to notice a pattern.
|
| Manufacturers are saving their pennies at the expense of
| hardware that fails outside of warranty and makes them
| $100 bills for their trouble of doing a bad job in the
| first place.
|
| Their is little reason to build to last when bad work
| pays dividends in the long run.
|
| The Tesla story for those who didn't catch it originally.
|
| https://www.thedrive.com/news/41493/teslas-16000-quote-
| for-a...
| reaperducer wrote:
| _Anyone who's ever repaired a car has encountered one form
| or another of a fastener or hose that breaks or drops and
| can't be easily removed because it's in a bad place_
|
| Can confirm. I ended up bringing a car to the dealer to
| replace a certain light bulb because it was not possible
| for me to put my man-sized hand through the metal hole to
| reach the bulb area. Fortunately, the dealer did it for
| free.
| kube-system wrote:
| People asked for Apple's repair manual, and they provided
| their repair manual.
|
| Apple isn't going to recommend you forcefully remove a LiPo,
| but you're free to do so if you want to do that instead.
| josephcsible wrote:
| If a car service manual said "replace the engine" (along
| with detailed instructions on how to do so) when a spark
| plug went bad, would you consider that acceptable just
| because the manual were released?
| alphabettsy wrote:
| A more apt analogy is the spark plug is stuck, stripped
| or broken.
|
| In that case should they provided detailed instructions
| on removal where that risks destroying the engine or at
| least the heads?
| josephcsible wrote:
| I'd definitely risk destroying an engine if the
| alternative were throwing it away and replacing it while
| there was still a chance it was fixable. Who wouldn't?
| kube-system wrote:
| There are many service manuals for cars that recommend
| procedures that independent auto shops and shade-tree
| mechanics do not follow.
|
| Get a short in a wiring harness? The service manual for
| your car will almost certainly recommend replacing the
| entire harness which is a very labor intensive and
| expensive procedure. Will mechanics do this? Depends on
| which shop you're at and who is paying.
|
| If there are multiple ways to solve a problem, an
| official service manual will typically list the safest
| and most repeatable solution. Rarely do they list any
| alternatives to this.
| smoldesu wrote:
| Well, part of me wishes this particular "car" wasn't
| separated into two replaceable pieces. A fender-bender or
| bad battery shouldn't warrant replacing _half of my car_!
| Not only is it ridiculously expensive, but it 's
| _insanely wasteful_ if the half it 's replacing isn't
| being salvaged for components.
|
| Apple has the resources to fix this. They _choose_ to
| actively neglect it, since they have a very successful
| side-business dedicated to replacing your iDevices at-
| cost.
| kube-system wrote:
| That's a fair criticism of the design of the device, but
| I fail to understand iFixit's argument that this is the
| repair program's fault.
| pilgrimfff wrote:
| > iFixit praises the M1 MacBook Air service manuals by saying
| "they're in-depth, mostly logical, and well worth an additional
| repairability point,"
|
| This is the service manual you're referencing. The one they're
| complaining about it is the M1 MacBook Pro.
|
| Here's the actual manual referenced:
| https://manuals.info.apple.com/MANUALS/2000/MA2085/en_US/mac...
|
| And here's iFixIt's actual complaint:
|
| > it's not 162 pages because Apple has changed where batteries
| sit in the MacBook Pro. It's that long because the manual says
| that to replace the battery, you've got to replace the entire
| top case. At the time of writing, Apple will not sell you a
| replacement MacBook Pro battery. They sell you a "Top Case with
| Battery and Keyboard."
| dkonofalski wrote:
| So it's a temporary situation to do it this way until they
| can get enough stock and work their supply chain to provide
| additional batteries? What a non-story.
| smoldesu wrote:
| What's your source for Apple planning to provide individual
| batteries?
| dkonofalski wrote:
| I know that you're a weird anti-Apple contrarian but it
| literally says this in the article that we're discussing
| here.
| wlesieutre wrote:
| I don't see anything to suggest that this policy will
| change in the future, they probably don't want to risk
| someone burning their house down while trying to remove a
| glued in pouch battery and then blaming Apple for it.
|
| Incidentally on the flip side of this, I got a free new
| battery out of the keyboard replacement program because
| they replace this whole top case assembly for keyboard
| replacements as well.
|
| I hoped that whole keyboard warranty extension fiasco would
| encourage Apple to stop gluing everything together so much
| and design for individual components to be replaced again,
| but I guess not.
| robmccoll wrote:
| I replaced the glued-down baggie-cell batteries in the
| laptop I'm currently using. It was a giant PITA, and I
| was very wary of burning my house down the entire time.
| It would absolutely be worth the cost difference to
| secure and protect the batteries in any other way.
| ezfe wrote:
| They do say on the website they're planning on selling
| the batteries individually in the future.
| wlesieutre wrote:
| Whoops, so they do. That's a repair I wouldn't want to
| touch by myself but good luck to anybody who does!
|
| The last Mac laptop I did repairs on was a snapped hinge
| and man that a painful process. Similar boat with having
| to take the entire computer apart (including the screen
| assembly). These days I'd be much happier to pay someone
| to deal with that, but doing it yourself is certainly the
| affordable solution and I'm glad that self repair
| continues to be an option.
| tomxor wrote:
| It doesn't have to be hard if they design it reasonably.
| XPS is similarly "thin" and you only have to undo 4
| screws to replace the battery.
| chris_wot wrote:
| They sell the top case and battery already. What supply
| chain issues are you referring to?
| mdoms wrote:
| vimy wrote:
| It's always been like that. Bring your macbook to an Apple
| store for a battery replacement and they will replace the top
| case.
| rainbowzootsuit wrote:
| It's similar to the "Replace Engine Soon" light in a BMW.
| jagger27 wrote:
| Well, it wasn't _always_ like this. Apple used to have
| unibody MacBooks with user replaceable batteries without
| even needing a screw driver.
| olliej wrote:
| The laptops were also bigger, heavier, and had less
| battery life. Everything is trade offs.
|
| The
| https://everymac.com/systems/apple/macbook_pro/macbook-
| pro-u...: 2008 15" unibody [last one that didn't need at
| a least a screwdriver] 1" thick, 5.4lbs, 5 hours of
| browsing
|
| https://www.tomsguide.com/reviews/macbook-pro-m1:M1
| MacBook Pro, 0.625" thick, 3.5 lbs, 16 hours of browsing.
|
| Obviously technology has improved (there's a 6 hour
| increase in battery life going from last intel laptop to
| an m1), but it also probably helps that that smaller
| light modern MacBook has a 100 watt hour battery, while
| the one you're referring to had a 45WHr battery.
| avisser wrote:
| I purchased a battery (just a battery) for my 2013 MBP. It
| was a pain to replace, but I replaced it with the help of
| an iFixIt guide.
|
| I believe it's that kind of guide people expected Apple to
| publish.
|
| So you may be right that it's always been Apple's policy,
| but the point was that the self-repair program is falling
| short of expectations. iFixIt set a standard and Apple has
| fallen short.
| tpmoney wrote:
| Why would anyone expect the self service process setup by
| Apple to be anything other than the same processes they
| have for their own repair people though? I don't expect a
| car manufacturer to release parts and instructions they
| wouldn't have their own service people follow. It's
| reasonable to debate the merits of having the battery
| tied to the top case on the whole, but if it's what Apple
| directs their own repair personnel to do, that's what I
| would expect their self service to do too.
| Spooky23 wrote:
| Modern flat lithium batteries are fairly hazardous and Apple
| is very conservative in their approach to handing them.
|
| They never want a Samsung like situation where the airport
| announcer says "No MacBook Pro 14" on the plane".
| Additionally, because it's Apple, there would be a media
| shitstorm if that happened.
| meragrin_ wrote:
| They'll sell you just a "modern flat lithium battery" for
| one model but not another. It isn't about the hazardousness
| of the batteries.
| jm_l wrote:
| I think they make a totally fair critique. The quote you pulled
| out is specifically about the fact that battery replacement
| alone takes 162 pages to get through.
|
| They also describe the manual as " they're in-depth, mostly
| logical, and well worth an additional repairability point"
| higher up in the article.
| rocket_surgeron wrote:
| >The quote you pulled out is specifically about the fact that
| battery replacement alone takes 162 pages to get through.
|
| But that's not true. The table of contents has links to the
| small subset of pages needed to be read to replace the
| battery.
|
| There are over a dozen chapters and the page count includes
| parts lists, safety and regulatory notices, and information
| about tools.
|
| My Webster's Unabridged Dictionary has 2,129 pages before it
| gets to the back matter. If I want to look up a word I don't
| open it to page 1 and start reading.
|
| Same for replacing a battery.
|
| 1. Open PDF 2. Scroll to table of contents 3. Click on
| "Battery" 4. Read 14 pages, each with 1-2 steps, about how to
| replace the battery
|
| Not 162.
|
| Besides, with the text density of those pages, they should be
| thought of more as "slides". A 162-slide presentation that
| covers the tools, part numbers, safety information, and step-
| by-step procedures for replacing parts that you can skip
| around in is not intimidating.
|
| Of course, my perspective may be skewed. My expectation is
| for comprehensive documentation with the hundred page
| behemoths that Sun used to produce back in the Sparc era for
| replacing a frame buffer card being the bare minimum
| acceptable level of documentation.
| mminer237 wrote:
| You must be reading a different manual than what they're
| talking about.
|
| https://manuals.info.apple.com/MANUALS/2000/MA2085/en_US/ma
| c...
|
| You'll note that at the beginning of the three-page battery
| section, it says that you must have already removed every
| other part from the other 159 pages. The battery section is
| basically just "whatever's left doesn't come apart, so
| replace all that for a new battery". I think saying it
| takes a 162-page manual is fair.
| kelsolaar wrote:
| There are ~25 pages about how to change keyboard keys
| before even touching the bottom case.
|
| Most of the pages are very much slide-like, extremely
| well done and don't have the density one would expect
| from a typical electronic device manual. The statement is
| not fair at all.
| wildzzz wrote:
| I looked up Apple's "black stick" because I was curious what it
| was. Turns out I use these all the time at work. We call them
| green sticks for some reason despite being black.
| "Plastic/nylon soldering tool" is a common name from vendors
| but I'm not exactly sure how useful it is for soldering since
| it's made out of plastic and would quickly melt. We mostly use
| them as a spudger or pry bar, anywhere you'd normally use a
| screwdriver to pry something off but don't want to mar any
| delicate surfaces. We also have "orange sticks" which aren't
| really orange but are just thin wooden dowels with an angled
| cut at the end you can use for situations where plastic can
| scratch a surface.
| suetoniusp91 wrote:
| Why in every story about Apple are their contrarian head
| burying. No other company would get this amount of support for
| finally after 20 years allowing a supposed owner of the product
| to change the battery
| scarface74 wrote:
| Or you could just let Apple do it for $129.
| amluto wrote:
| I once replaced an iPhone display with an iFixit kit, following
| the iFixit instructions:
|
| https://www.ifixit.com/Guide/iPhone+SE+Screen+Replacement/61...
|
| The instructions for reassembly are, in their entirety:
|
| > CONCLUSION
|
| > To reassemble your device, follow these instructions in
| reverse order.
|
| Thanks. I would have loved to see actual instructions. It is
| distinctly nontrivial to get the display back in, especially if
| the case is even slightly damaged.
|
| On top of this, I have never encountered a non-OEM aftermarket
| iPhone display that wasn't linearly polarized. If you wear
| polarized sunglasses, a non-polarized or circularly polarized
| display is an important feature.
|
| So I consider the Apple program to be a big improvement.
| reaperducer wrote:
| _It seems highly likely to me that anyone claiming this
| document is intimidating either has not read it or is lying for
| some reason._
|
| I used to be a fan of iFixIt, and have even bought one of its
| larger tool kits, but have lost respect for it in the last few
| years.
|
| In part, because any time Apple does _anything_ , iFixIt is
| there with a snarky criticism. Like it just really really
| really needs the clicks. I don't mind people being critical of
| Apple, but what comes out of iFixIt these days is mostly very
| solidly in whiny baby/grumpy old man territory.
|
| Second, because I've tried four times to repair items using
| iFixIt guides, and in every case the guide was incomplete,
| inaccurate, or the steps just sort of ended without finishing
| the job. Twice I was able to finish the repairs on my own.
| Twice, the device was ruined.
|
| Many iFixIt guides seem to start out well-written and
| documented, but eventually get all hand-wavey. More often than
| not, when I've looked up a guide, it ends with "Reverse the
| steps to reassemble," which is not reassuring, considering the
| complexity with which modern electronics are built, and because
| some of the parts were destroyed (adhesive strips, for example)
| on the way.
| jks wrote:
| I've changed parts on several Apple laptops and one Mac Mini
| using iFixit manuals. In every case, it was really useful to
| read all the comments left by readers. Sometimes the comments
| tell you that you can skip several steps, in some cases they
| point out when you need to be extra careful or when the
| iFixit photos were misleading.
| suetoniusp91 wrote:
| Every single person related to repairing devices hates apple.
| For decades they have been at the forefront "you should not
| be able to fix/change your device". The have created billions
| of lbs of trash and psyop'd millions of people through these
| policies, and yet their unpaid shills still come out to
| defend them. Disgusting
| lttlrck wrote:
| It's dishonest to ignore the longevity of well made
| products. Even if they are hard to repair.
| filmgirlcw wrote:
| I was going to say, this is a really terrific manual. Yes, many
| people will be better served watching a video (especially if
| they are new to repairs, and if that's the case, I personally
| don't recommend starting your DIY repair journey on a current-
| gen Apple laptop, but that's just me), and many of the iFixit
| guides are quite good, but this service manual is
| comprehensive, well-written and easy to follow.
|
| I also read the 162-page thing, along with a claim you had to
| read that just to replace the battery. And that's not the case?
| The entire manual is 162 pages, not just the instructions for
| relaxing the top case and battery.
|
| Yes, I think it's insane that you (right now) have to replace
| the entire top case to replace the battery. It's genuinely
| absurd. Apple says they'll sell the batteries separately at
| some point, so that's good. But that's still insane.
|
| That said, I'm not really here for exaggerations about what is
| an incredibly well-written manual. It's not like this is going
| to cut into iFixit's guide or tool business because I don't see
| Apple trying to game the SEO for MacBook repair guide; Apple
| would rather you take your MacBook to an Apple Store.
| oefrha wrote:
| > Our 14'' MacBook Pro battery replacement guide is 26 steps.
| That might not seem like a very speedy guide, but the Surface Pro
| 6 is twice that long, and iPad guides can be upwards of a hundred
| steps. In the scheme of things, 26 steps is pretty good. Imagine
| our surprise when we found that Apple's official MacBook Pro
| battery replacement method clocks in at 162 pages.
|
| 162 pages is the entire damn manual[1], not just battery
| replacement, and the manual is very detailed, what is one step in
| the iFixit guide (which often includes multiple images in a
| carousel) could be multiple pages in the manual.
|
| While it's not great that Apple deems the battery a non-removable
| part of the top case, this complaint about complexity is
| misleading FUD.
|
| Disclosure: I've made quite a few purchases at iFixit over the
| years.
|
| [1]
| https://manuals.info.apple.com/MANUALS/2000/MA2085/en_US/mac...
| pzo wrote:
| in your linked PDF the process of removing battery is explained
| in 2 slide that links to dozen (literally) other steps below:
|
| ``` Bottom case
|
| * Battery management unit flex cable
|
| * Lid angle sensor
|
| * Trackpad and trackpad flex cable
|
| * Vent/antenna module
|
| * Logic board
|
| * Display hinge covers
|
| * Display
|
| * Audio board
|
| * Fans
|
| * MagSafe 3 board
|
| * USB-C boards
|
| * Touch ID board
|
| Remove the following parts
|
| before you begin:
|
| * No tools are required for this procedure. Tools ```
|
| The reassembly is just 1 slide that tells links to dozen
| (literally) links below:
|
| ``` Reassembly * Touch ID board
|
| * USB-C boards
|
| * MagSafe 3 board
|
| * Fans
|
| * Audio board
|
| * Display
|
| * Display hinge covers
|
| * Logic board
|
| * Vent/antenna module
|
| * Trackpad and trackpad flex cable
|
| * Lid angle sensor
|
| * Battery management unit flex cable
|
| * Bottom case ```
|
| I wouldn't say that removing dozen of components to just remove
| battery (something) is user friendly.
| mminer237 wrote:
| You'll note that at the beginning of the three-page battery
| section, it says that you must have already removed every other
| part from the other 159 pages. The battery section is basically
| just "whatever's left doesn't come apart, so replace all that
| for a new battery". I think saying it takes a 162-page manual
| is fair.
| oefrha wrote:
| If you follow everything religiously you start at p.47. You
| definitely don't need the 25 pages for replacing keys. And
| all those pages include reassembly, which is missing from the
| 26-step iFixit guide, which stops at "remove the battery".
| shuntress wrote:
| Apple's self-repair program is very obviously malicious
| compliance.
|
| Every rational person will tell you that shipping rented hardware
| back-and-forth with strict exchange of exactly one broken part
| for exactly one new part individually for every repair is a bad
| idea.
|
| Parts and equipment need to be available for purchase with no
| strings attached so they can be stocked on shelves in repair
| shops.
| msoad wrote:
| Apple has to do this. Imagine if the repair kit was not up to the
| standards they had. Lawsuits will be filed the day the release
| those kits.
|
| iFixit and similar companies can offer cheaper alternatives
| because they are not Apple.
| falcolas wrote:
| This isn't about the cost of the repair kit, it's about the
| cost of the replacement item, which includes many pieces which
| are not the battery.
| andix wrote:
| Just don't buy products where you can't replace the battery with
| a reasonable effort.
|
| I replaced multiple iPhone batteries, it was always possible in
| less then 30 minutes with just simple tools.
|
| I opened up multiple laptops (mostly HP and Lenovo), no problem
| to replace things there either.
|
| People still replace their devices, because the battery is weak.
| This is stupid, just replace the battery and use it for another
| 1, 2 or more years.
| tempnow987 wrote:
| What a stupid take as is increasingly the case with ifixit.
|
| How does adding manuals and parts make something LESS repairable?
| At worst you are no better off than you started.
|
| And for all the crap apple gets for things like their batteries,
| I used to do fleet battery stuff on dell machines using a third
| party providers and the rate at which these machines BURNED
| through batteries was insane. THis was a while back, and not sure
| if it was the chargers, or how they were used (plugged in a lot
| of deep drained a lot), but for whatever reason apple's battery
| management tech really seems to get some life out of their
| batteries.
|
| Also, once they started validating batteries so ifixit type
| places couldn't drop bad batteries into phones, a lot of the
| trouble there went away as well.
|
| Anyways, a screen replacement under apple care is $29. I'll
| report back how "terrible" the process is (first time in years
| that I've broken my screen).
| ericmay wrote:
| Pretty soon they'll be against right-to-repair legislation.
| Just watch.
| TehCorwiz wrote:
| If you read the article you'd see that Apple will not sell you
| a battery. They will ONLY sell you a "Top case with battery and
| keyboard" which requires removing every single part of the
| laptop in order to replace. This is more invasive, more
| expensive, and less approachable from a repair standpoint if
| you go with their process.
| dkonofalski wrote:
| >If you read the article you'd see that Apple will not sell
| you a battery.
|
| _YET_. The manual and the article itself acknowledge that
| this repair is only possible with a top case replacement and
| that battery-only parts will be available soon.
| kemayo wrote:
| That doesn't make the laptop _less repairable_ than it was
| before they launched this program, though, which is what the
| headline claims.
|
| It's less repairable than a hypothetical version of the
| repair program which sells you _just_ the component you need
| to replace, sure, but you can still perform any-and-all
| actions that you 'd have taken to replace a battery before
| Apple's official program existed.
| vonseel wrote:
| Applecare screen replacement is a breeze, if you live near an
| Apple store. Walk into scheduled appointment, hand them your
| phone and sign your name on their little iPad granting them the
| permission to repair or replace your device and dealing with
| payment, and they tell you to come back an hour or two later
| and pick up your device. I always buy Applecare and have had to
| replace each of my last iPhones at least once this way, but
| it's really a no-biggie because it only takes maybe an hour
| total to drop it off and pick it up, including driving time,
| once the appointment is scheduled.
| lisper wrote:
| This is a clickjack link. The original is here:
|
| https://www.ifixit.com/News/64072/apples-self-repair-program...
| tarentel wrote:
| This is a slightly better headline than the one they changed it
| to which makes no sense.
| lisper wrote:
| Huh??? All three headlines (the original iFixit, the 9to5Mac
| clickjack, and the HN version) are essentially identical:
|
| iFixit: Self Repair Program actually makes M1 MacBooks less
| repairable (9to5Mac)
|
| IFixit: Self Repair Program makes M1 MacBooks less repairable
| (HN)
|
| Apple's Self-Repair Program Manages to Make MacBooks Seem
| Less Repairable (iFixit)
| bombcar wrote:
| The lack of "seem" changes the title entirely.
|
| Anyone _anyone_ who has read "official repair manuals"
| knows that they're _always_ more detailed and have more
| steps than you actually need to perform, because they cover
| every possible situation and assume you have perfect tools
| and training and are following all possible safety
| protocols.
|
| I remember reading the Chilton manual for my car vs the
| factory repair manual, and the Chilton would mention "the
| repair manual says to remove the front bumper, but with a
| bit of a squeeze and some care, you can do the replacement
| without that step" kind of thing all the time.
| kemayo wrote:
| There's also iFixit's <title>, "Apple Seems to Make
| MacBooks Less Repairable"... which is an entirely
| different implication from their heading. The former
| implies an absolute less-repairable state, the latter
| implies Apple's making repairs more intimidating.
| tarentel wrote:
| They're all terrible. But "seem less repairable" and
| "actually make _ less repairable" have two different
| meanings. The latter makes it sound as if having the tools
| and instructions somehow make doing something harder than
| by not having them.
| josephcsible wrote:
| How is this link clickjacking?
| lisper wrote:
| Clickjack may have been the wrong word to use. I was
| referring to this from the HN guidelines [1]:
|
| "Please submit the original source. If a post reports on
| something found on another site, submit the latter."
|
| [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
| rgoulter wrote:
| Related: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32550717 Apple
| expands Self Service Repair to Mac notebooks (apple.com), 482
| comments.
| tarentel wrote:
| No it doesn't. Ya, it's a 162 page manual and a huge pain and
| likely not worth it but the program doesn't make it less
| repairable. It was designed in such a way that makes repairing it
| a pain in the ass. Having the tooling and manual to do the repair
| doesn't make it less repairable.
|
| This headline makes no sense.
| woojoo666 wrote:
| The actual ifixit article title is "Apple's Self-Repair Program
| Manages to Make MacBooks Seem Less Repairable".
|
| The "seem" here is important, and was excluded in the 9to5mac
| article title
| falcolas wrote:
| 162 pages indicates that the item was not made to be repaired
| or replaced. 162 pages indicates that you're going to have to
| work around Apple's repair-hostile design to do a repair.
| acomjean wrote:
| I replaced my laptop fan after it was grinding. The full
| disassemble/upgrade manual was like 30 pages. It is a system
| 76 machine which is just a clevo machine.
|
| edit (30 pages). (they post they're own manuals on github..)
|
| https://github.com/system76/docs/blob/gh-pages/service-
| manua...
| MrFoof wrote:
| The official workshop manual from the manufacturer for my car
| (which includes full engine assembly!) -- _the same one used
| by all of its dealer techs_ - is over 6400 pages. It is
| loaded with an absurd number of detailed diagrams, torque
| specifications, required tools, checklists, etc.
|
| Does that make my car less repairable? Or does it provide all
| the information necessary for someone to correctly perform
| repair or maintenance, including all required pre- and post-
| processes related to the affected area?
| [deleted]
| falcolas wrote:
| Does your car repair manual dictate that replacing the
| battery and alternator includes also replacing the unibody
| (including the driver controls, though not the seats) with
| a unit provided only by the car manufacturer?
|
| Having used a few workshop manuals, I do get your point.
| But those manuals provide the advantage of actually letting
| you repair cars without having to replace the entire
| unibody when you change an oil filter (though you'll often
| have to disassemble vast portions of the car to get at
| simple consumables these days).
| tpmoney wrote:
| I imagine the replacement process for an EVs battery pack
| also is involved and requires a lot of work. I also
| imagine the official replacement process will not involve
| individual cell replacement and will likely be an entire
| pack that may also include BMS units or other components.
| smoldesu wrote:
| > I also imagine the official replacement process will
| not involve individual cell replacement
|
| Since when _has_ it involved that? Even back when
| cellphones were repairable, trying to fix a broken
| battery by manipulating the cells is a suicide mission. I
| get that you 're trying to illustrate that "density has a
| repairability cost", but I think that's entirely
| redundant, since:
|
| - Apple can throw money at this issue and fix it. No
| private interest on the planet has even remotely as much
| research funding as Apple. If companies like Framework
| can manage it, then so can Apple.
|
| - Apple's devices are getting larger, and their SOCs are
| getting more dense. There's more room inside the Macbook
| Pro than ever before, which leaves plenty of space to
| reinforce the device and improve it's disassembly
| process.
|
| - Making repairable/sustainable technology doesn't seem
| to impede any of Apple's goals. Adding an M.2 slot on the
| Macbook would have no perceivable downside. Removing the
| internal adhesive could help improve the device's
| lifespan _and_ make it possible to reassemble without
| additional components. Offering a matte /plastic display
| option would also give users the option to own a Macbook
| that doesn't break when it falls from waist height.
|
| So, I don't really buy this. When people come forward and
| speculate on Apple's behalf, I feel like they're
| forgetting that we're talking about the most powerful
| company on Earth. Apple can move mountains, and you're
| trying to justify why they can't offer more granular
| repair options? This is the _exact same_ supply-chain
| pettiness that people used to applaud Apple for, and now
| that everyone feels the impact of it, why do we still
| defend them for abusing capitalism and hurting _everyone_
| in the process?
| smoldesu wrote:
| > Or does it provide all the information necessary for
| someone to correctly perform repair or maintenance
|
| Well, that's the problem. Apple _doesn 't_ provide all of
| the necessary information to safely perform board repairs
| or fix mechanical failure. If you break your car's window,
| you can go get it replaced in an afternoon. If you break
| your Macbook's display, your options are to take it to an
| Apple Store and let them quote you a repair, or buy their
| $500 topcase "do it yourself" replacement kit. All roads
| lead back to Apple, and Apple deliberately destroys all
| roads to repairing your computer. This is clearly evidenced
| by their unbelievably coarse selection of replacement
| parts, forcing their customers to buy replacements for
| components they don't need.
|
| In other words, it's like breaking your windshield and
| being told to get a new car or replace the entire chassis.
| Apple can fix this, and quite easily at that, but why would
| they? They have a direct financial incentive to keep
| letting Macbooks break in unfortunate ways. The most common
| damage (screen/display, logic board) also happens to be the
| most expensive, and their price is entirely artificial.
| tarentel wrote:
| I definitely agree with you there. But the headline says it
| makes it "less repairable." If your car manufacturers changes
| all the bolts on your tires to use specialized tools and
| require you to read a book to understand it that makes your
| car less repairable. If they provide those tools and manual
| that doesn't make your car less repairable than it already
| was.
|
| My point is the title of this makes no sense.
| falcolas wrote:
| Titles rarely do. And sadly, if you want to thrive by
| producing content, you need to juice up the title a little.
| Yeah, I hate it too.
|
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S2xHZPH5Sng
|
| But on topic, Apple's official stance, as provided by this
| repair manual, is that replacing a battery requires you to
| replace vast portions of the final product.
|
| Car analogy time: Got bad seals on your block? Send us the
| engine; who knows what kind of damage those bad seals have
| done. Oh, and only we, your car manufacturer can get you
| the tools and an authorized engine replacement.
|
| Can the battery be replaced without the assembly? iFixit
| says yes. Is this how Apple does it? Sure, but it's
| generating a lot of cost and waste. They can write both of.
| Can you?
| dkonofalski wrote:
| The article and manual everyone is talking about
| explicitly say that the top case situation is _temporary_
| and that Apple will offer battery-only parts in the
| future. Stop making mountains out of molehills. They 're
| attempting to cover as many repairs with the same parts
| as possible. This is a supply chain issue not an
| intentional requirement to force people to replace parts
| that don't need replacement.
| renewiltord wrote:
| This is why I argue that code should not have documentation.
| The more documentation and comments you have, the less
| modifiable the code is. If you have 162 pages of
| documentation, your code must be crap. If you have one page
| of documentation and it reads like it was sent through
| Translation Party, your code must be awesome.
| pdntspa wrote:
| Yeah, 162 pages because the repair guide is extremely detailed
| and we are working with heavily miniaturized parts
| fzfaa wrote:
| Any screenshot?
| [deleted]
| mikece wrote:
| Feedback from iFixit is nice and all, but has Louis Rossmann
| weighed in on this topic yet? All feedback prior to Louis getting
| loose on YouTube is just the opening act.
|
| UPDATE: Louis Rossmann has published his opinion:
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32581896 (TL;DR: 90% useless
| for him but an improvement from 100% useless like Apple's
| previous program)
| dillutedfixer wrote:
| I've had my 16" MBP since early April and I only have 30 cycles
| on the battery. At my usage rate, I charge this thing about once
| or twice a week on average. At this rate, the battery is going to
| last longer than any laptop battery I've ever owned. And then
| when it finally degrades to the point that I need to replace it,
| I would happily pay $199 to Apple for a new one rather than save
| a few dollars and do it myself. Plus I'd rather have someone to
| blame other than myself if it f's up.
| vonseel wrote:
| My 2020 (purchased Sept. 2021) M1 MBA is at 100% health with 61
| cycles. Rated for 1000 cycles. Health
| Information: Cycle Count: 61 Condition: Normal
| Maximum Capacity: 100%
|
| I use it pretty regularly several hours per day in 2022, maybe
| didn't use it as much in 2021. But still, seems to be holding
| up very well.
| rahkiin wrote:
| My battery severely degraded without the cycles. I had 150
| cycles after 4 years with 78% capacity. I am now at 239 cycles
| at 64% capacity.
| alphabettsy wrote:
| The older batteries were rated for 500 cycles so that doesn't
| seem unusual.
| rahkiin wrote:
| Except 80% is regarded as pretty much EOL, and this is a
| 2017 model.
| memco wrote:
| I have a disassembled laptop in my garage after a failed
| attempt to replace the battery on my 8 year old MacBook. Apple
| no longer offers repairs nor is there anyone else in the area I
| could find to do it. I replaced my wife's (10 year old) battery
| a few months prior to attempting mine: hers required a few
| screws and was done in about 5 minutes. Mine required
| disassembling the whole computer dissolving the adhesive on the
| old battery and replacing then reassembling. If you're going to
| plan on having apple fix your battery do it 5 or 6 years from
| now regardless of the condition and then pray you have some
| repair option when Apple stops providing support.
| dillutedfixer wrote:
| Good advice, thanks. I've replaced the battery on my wifes
| 2013 MBA and it was incredibly easy.
|
| My MBP is maxed out and was quite an investment so I want to
| keep it around for as long as possible. I'll probably just be
| safe and have Apple replace the battery around 5 years
| assuming it stays usable for that long.
| anonymouse008 wrote:
| The audacity is sky high.
|
| Just check the attention to detail and care put into these
| manuals. The gradient blue arrows are masked by glass and alter
| _in arrow_ opacities to make abundantly clear how the device is
| supposed to react to the force applied.
|
| You all should have been there in the original iPhone days. I
| apologize to my early customers as to achieve anything close to a
| 'repair' meant losing a few back clips and figuring things out as
| you went.
|
| iFixit is under existential threat, and it shows.
| suetoniusp91 wrote:
| Apple has never and will never be the main Target of companies
| like Ifixit because the vast majority of Apple users are tech
| illiterate NPCs. Stop shilling for a trillion dollar company
| for free. At least get payed for it
| falcolas wrote:
| Yes, providing well detailed manuals on how to work around
| Apple's hostility to repairing is a good thing. A $500
| replacement part to replace a battery is not a good thing.
|
| I'd also say that your average end user is probably still going
| to be breaking tabs. Applying proper force requires physical
| calibration; calibration takes practice.
| dewey wrote:
| > I'd also say that your average end user is probably still
| going to be breaking tabs
|
| The average end user is not going to do the repair
| themselves.
| falcolas wrote:
| Which is a relatively new phenomenon when it comes to
| batteries. It's only been a handful of year since I could
| swap them out with a couple of latches.
| dewey wrote:
| To be fair, batteries back then lasted a lot shorter than
| they do now. For my first MBP I had to buy multiple
| replacement batteries, for my newer ones I didn't have to
| do that a single time while using them much more.
| smitty1110 wrote:
| Don't forget that they also had significant wear after
| only a few months. HP sucked so much money out of me with
| replacement batteries before I switched to an MBP in
| 2015. I haven't bought anything from HP since, and good
| riddance.
| Symbiote wrote:
| Even today, replacing the batteries on a laptop from a
| competing manufacturer is a 10 minute job with an
| ordinary screwdriver. Many people can do it themselves,
| and if not, a computer/phone repair shop will do it for
| $10 (or free, if you buy the battery from them).
|
| Example: https://www.ifixit.com/Guide/Dell+Latitude+7480+
| +Battery+Rep...
| olliej wrote:
| Yes, they were also physically bulkier, weighed more, and
| substantially lower battery capacity. The last non-
| screwdriver replaceable MacBook Pro was 50% heavier, 50%
| thicker, and had a battery that was less than 50% the
| capacity. That difference in battery capacity matches
| almost exactly the user experienced battery life from the
| last screwdriver-free replaceable battery MacBook and the
| last intel laptop.
| msgilligan wrote:
| The iFixIt headline is actually "Apple's Self-Repair Program
| Manages to Make MacBooks Seem Less Repairable".
|
| The word _seem_ is important here. 9to5Mac should change their
| headline accordingly and so Hacker News should maybe change the
| link.
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