[HN Gopher] Is there hope for Linux on smartphones? [video]
___________________________________________________________________
Is there hope for Linux on smartphones? [video]
Author : McSinyx
Score : 64 points
Date : 2022-08-23 17:53 UTC (5 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (media.ccc.de)
(TXT) w3m dump (media.ccc.de)
| NuSkooler wrote:
| It's mentioned already, but: Android.
|
| Discounting Android as "Not Linux" enough is a mind boggle to me.
| Perhaps not "GNU" enough, but certainly the spirit of Linux --
| customized for the particular needs, stable, fast, works on a
| plethora of hardware, etc.
| nivenkos wrote:
| When I think of a Linux phone, I really want something that
| supports a full GNU/Linux desktop as convergence.
|
| The Steam Deck does this perfectly!
| Teever wrote:
| Damn, you got me thinking now, that Valve of all people could
| probably put out a Linux phone.
|
| The Steam Phone could be a game changer.
| Bilal_io wrote:
| I would buy a Steam Phone, and I'd want a big Valve logo on
| its back, and an easter egg that says "half-life 3 is not
| coming"
| hrbf wrote:
| For a niche market, possibly. However, I just don't see
| Valve as a company being interested in becoming a phone
| manufacturer. What would realistically be in for them? It's
| strategically mostly irrelevant to their core business,
| with the sole exception of the Steam Store. But to create,
| develop and support a whole phone platform (hard- and
| software) just to sell mobile games? I don't see it.
| jnwatson wrote:
| You underestimate the size of the opportunity. The mobile
| game market was $119 billion in 2021.
| hrbf wrote:
| Given the complexities involved in such an endeavor, I'm
| still confident in my assessment, especially when
| confronted with a one-liner just throwing a large number
| against the wall. If Microsoft couldn't get a mobile OS
| off the ground, despite trying, I don't see what the
| opportunity size has anything to do with it. Focusing on
| (even casual) gamers with specialized hardware works for
| a gaming-focused company, whereas a general-purpose
| device would not. Compare Nintendo Switch and Steam Deck.
| Strictly speaking this is part of mobile gaming, with
| significantly higher margins.
| nivenkos wrote:
| Yeah, I think the main issue is getting support for
| WhatsApp and banking and ID services (that usually block
| even just rooted Android phones).
|
| I'm literally writing this comment from my Steam Deck.
| coffee_beqn wrote:
| I don't believe that can happen. The steam deck kind of
| works because they pack in a bunch of peripherals that
| won't fit into a phone. The touchscreen experience on it is
| miserable. 99% of steam games with touchscreen controls
| would be totally a sad experience.
|
| What it is is a laptop in a funny case.
| saidinesh5 wrote:
| You may actually be onto something here!
|
| Especially if the smaller steam deck clones like Aya neo
| Air Pro ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kw-0ngNgGC0 ) can
| support voice calls and a decent camera (the only other
| things my "mobile gamer" friends care about in a phone), I
| think there will be a niche market around it. Nokia N-Gage
| reborn!
|
| We already have decent enough android apps support on linux
| using anbox / waydroid. For the edge case android apps.
| notmyaccountt wrote:
| Google created an Android userspace that requires Google
| services to do anything meaningful. This violates everything
| Linux stands for.
| colordrops wrote:
| Not great, agreed, but they did at least architect the OS so
| that they are decoupled and you can build without them very
| easily. In fact the largest custom ROM doesn't bundle with
| them by default (LineageOS). What do you need Google services
| for?
| est31 wrote:
| I think it's better to come up with replacements for those
| Google services and apps instead of rewriting the entire
| operating system. You need to solve the same problems on a
| linux smartphone as well, so Android gave you a lot of time
| savings, and I doubt the app sandboxing is even remotely as
| good on those non-Android linuxes. For Google Play for
| example there is F-droid, for push messages/FCM there is
| UnifiedPush, for Google Maps there is Osmand.
| cma wrote:
| When mapping shared memory or checking for the right broadcast
| subnet requires calling into Java code... it isn't Linux on the
| user side so much anymore.
| humanwhosits wrote:
| fuchsia (+starnix for legacy) might make android much less
| linux-y over the long term
| OJFord wrote:
| I suppose it depends what you mean/want by 'Linux'? In a
| nutshell I suppose I want systemd & config files.
| kitsunesoba wrote:
| Vanilla Android or AOSP might kinda have "Linux Spirit" but I'm
| not sure what gets shipped on most consumer devices does...
| lots of random things locked down (including boot loader,
| sometimes), crapware all over the place, drivers and kernel
| changes that aren't upstreamed making it difficult to install
| anything but carrier/manufacturer-flavored Android, etc.
|
| I think most people rooting for "smartphone Linux" are looking
| to be able to swap and customize OSes on their phones and
| tablets as easily as they do on their x86 PCs without futzing
| around with device specific ROMs and the like.
| colordrops wrote:
| Android has something called GSIs (Generic System Images)
| that will run on any device that supports Android 9 and
| above. They don't always support custom hardware, but this
| isn't really any different from pure Linux. Instead of
| building a mobile ecosystem from scratch, why not build a
| community around submitting drivers to a build based on GSI?
| zozbot234 wrote:
| Even AOSP is running something quite far from a mainline
| kernel, although they've been gradually reducing the delta
| with Linux proper. It really is a fork.
| azinman2 wrote:
| But why is a fork still not Linux? Every major distributor
| runs a fork.
| calvinmorrison wrote:
| My pixel broke (was running CalyxOS, lineage before that),
| and I had to get a quick burner phone to make work calls. Got
| a $200 dollar used samsung. I didn't realize what utter trash
| nonsense is loaded onto normal phones. It's absolutely
| bonkers what Samsung did to destroy Android with no value
| add.
| sleepymoose wrote:
| >including boot loader, sometimes
|
| Perhaps in the past, but it feels like more and more this is
| shifting toward the expectation, rather than the exception.
| water-your-self wrote:
| The android operating system is not open soruce.
| CharlesW wrote:
| https://source.android.com/docs/setup/start/licenses
| realusername wrote:
| Unfortunately there's not a single device on earth that
| runs AOSP to my knowledge, even the emulator does not.
| colordrops wrote:
| Are GSI images not built off of AOSP?
| blendergeek wrote:
| That is the license for the Android Open Source Project.
| Unfortunately, Google has spent the last fifteen years
| moving many parts of the stack and almost (if not) all the
| core apps to Google Proprietary versions. Most apps in AOSP
| no longer receive updates at all.
|
| The dream is here is not just that we would be running "an
| open source stack" but that the active development would be
| on the open source stack. Sure, there are new releases of
| AOSP. But take a look at the core apps: Contacts, Calendar,
| Camera, Email, Location services. These are _all_
| proprietary now.
|
| Android is open source in the same sort of way that MacOS
| is open source. There are some open source bits in there.
| colordrops wrote:
| Who cares about the google user space apps? There are
| viable open source alternatives for all of them. It's
| like saying Linux is not open source because Redhat
| bundles proprietary software with their distro.
| bhedgeoser wrote:
| What they're referring to as linux is actually gnu/linux, or as
| I like to call it, gnu+linux.
| lrvick wrote:
| Android is Linux but it has nowhere close to the fully open
| source freedom of a traditional Linux workstation. This is why
| I carry a tiny linux laptop.
| CharlesW wrote:
| Phones are not PCs/general-purpose computers. Do you want
| your TV to be a general purpose computer as well? (Having put
| my family through a Media Center PC and TV remotes with
| keyboards/trackpads for several years, I don't recommend it.)
| realusername wrote:
| > Phones are not PCs/general-purpose computers.
|
| That's just the opinion of the manufacturer, we don't have
| to agree.
|
| Phones have banking and government apps, they are general
| purpose computers from their usage alread
| bitwize wrote:
| Bankers and governments don't _want_ your phone to be a
| general purpose computer. That 's why you can't run your
| banking app on a rooted phone. From a security
| standpoint, "general purpose computing" is really just
| "arbitrary code execution" -- generally a _bad_ thing.
|
| We are approaching the sunset of general purpose
| computing in the consumer space. There's nothing you can
| do. Accept it and move on.
| kube-system wrote:
| "General purpose computing" does not imply any particular
| security model, it refers to a device with a variety of
| end user purposes.
|
| It is in contrast to a special purpose computer, which
| smartphones clearly are not.
| megous wrote:
| You missed quite a lot of history then. Smartphones are
| general purpose computers for the last 12 years or so.
| cma wrote:
| I run termux on mine and wish termux wasn't so restricted
| by google/android.
| nivenkos wrote:
| What do you use a small laptop? Seems there's nothing
| ultralight and small like the Asus Eee and Acer Aspire One
| these days (even though you'd think it'd be easier with ARM
| now).
| zozbot234 wrote:
| > What do you use a small laptop? Seems there's nothing
| ultralight and small like the Asus Eee and Acer Aspire One
| these days
|
| They're called "Ultrabooks" now. Buy an older one on the
| used market if you don't care about top performance.
| nfriedly wrote:
| Not the OP, but you should take a look at
| https://www.gpd.hk/ they have a handful of small devices
| targeted at different niches.
| jcynix wrote:
| I'm quite happy with Termux on Android. Allows me to rsync my
| data for backup or imports, I can ssh into real Linux
| machines, process images with ImageMagick, etc. Sharing
| documents from inside other apps works too (you can set up
| scripts in Termux as receivers). Sure, full control of a
| device would be great, but I'm better off with Android after
| I migrated from IOS.
| not2b wrote:
| Yes, articles like this illustrate that RMS had a point, as
| annoying as he can be about it. Android is obviously Linux.
| What's missing is all of the things GNU and BSD brought to the
| party.
| hrbf wrote:
| Simple answer: no. Apart from Android that is. Non-specialized
| Linux will never be supported by manufacturers because there's
| simply no economic incentive to do so.
| [deleted]
| mayoi wrote:
| Android works just fine on my smartphone.
| yyyk wrote:
| There isn't any hope for Linux on the smartphone, at least not
| Linux as actually intended in the talk.
|
| A proper solution needs to run perfectly on users' existing
| hardware or it won't be run at all. There are a lot of old
| unupdated devices which should be ripe for the picking. The only
| solution close to matching the OSS community's resources is the
| Android kernel for all of its problems. The Linux smartphone
| community is way too ideological (far more than even RMS was back
| when OSS started) to do it - they won't use Android, and their
| hardware would also be way behind for similar reasons.
|
| So irrelevance it is, unless some rich sugar daddy company
| decides to make an entrance to the smartphone market, but I don't
| see any plausible contenders.
| orangepurple wrote:
| Arch Linux ARM can be installed on Android with Termux
|
| I run scipy and numpy on my phone with it. A bit painful because
| I can only see about six lines of code at a time but I wrote a
| few thousand lines of ML code with vim on my cell phone in the
| last two months.
|
| https://github.com/SDRausty/termux-archlinux/
| dredmorbius wrote:
| Termux is a godsend on Android, and remains The Only App Which
| Does Not Specifically and Precisely Suck (though EinkBro is
| giving it a good run for its money).
|
| Termux _still_ has a host of limitations and weaknesses _which
| are imposed by the Android environment itself_ , including
| being capriciously killed by the OS, lack of multiple users,
| blocked access to most of the filesystem, and a relatively
| limited (though impressively growing, I have to admit) set of
| utilities. At last check, this includes X11 utilities and at
| least some of TeX, both quite formidable.
| orangepurple wrote:
| Termux is awesome but the native environment is suffocating.
| I didn't even bother with Termux utilities after one hour of
| messing around. I went straight for the Arch Linux ARM proot
| environment and it contains ALL of the Arch Linux utilities.
| For example you will never get scipy to compile in normal
| Termux because you can't reasonably get a compatible Fortran
| compiler built and configured. Arch Linux ARM is the best
| "distro" within Termux and the installation script is
| seamless and supports multiple users!
| dredmorbius wrote:
| Suffocating for lack of packages?
|
| I'll note that Termux has about 1/3 the package count of
| RHEL / CentOS. It's not everything, but for a mobile
| distro, it's quite good.
|
| That said:
|
| 1. Thanks for the Arch suggestion. I'll take a look at
| that. Root required?
|
| 2. _Even with a full-fledged distro installed_ , if you're
| running unrooted Android you're still grossly crippled by
| the overarching (so to speak) Android system in terms of
| filesystem and process management and interference.
| MartijnBraam wrote:
| I think this talk does a great job of explaining why AOSP is not
| a solution
| [deleted]
| jqpabc123 wrote:
| Hardware manufacturers have no incentive to support it.
| rbanffy wrote:
| Erm... Android is Linux.
| JCWasmx86 wrote:
| Just the kernel is Linux, but with the "Linux" that is meant
| here, it has basically nothing in common, be it e.g. in the
| userland or "the spirit".
|
| The Linux from "Linux Smartphones" e.g. fosters an open,
| user-first ecosystem, as opposed to the often very closed and
| locked Android Smartphones. Another examples are e.g.
| Safetynet or the Google Play Integrity API. Those primarily
| don't server the users. Or apps that either complain or even
| stop working on rooted phones. We have admin/root on normal
| PCs and nobody is complaining there.
| 3836293648 wrote:
| Just the kernel is linux, but isn't basically all of the
| hardware support we need in the kernel?
|
| Sure, we're still out of luck with trying to run mainline
| kernels, but what's stopping us from running normal GNU
| userland on top of a working Android kernel?
| mmsnberbar66 wrote:
| > We have admin/root on normal PCs and nobody is
| complaining there.
|
| That's true.
| mulmen wrote:
| Linux is _only_ a kernel. What most people mean when they
| say "Linux" is actually "Linux _distribution_ " which is
| the Linux kernel plus some userland like GNU or Android.
| matrix12 wrote:
| I think they conflate GNU with Linux kernel.
| what-imright wrote:
| Why is the title "Is there hope for linux on smartphones?"?
|
| If it said "Is there hope for GNU on smartphones?" the
| answer would be a resounding no, because the community is
| fractured and politicized to the degree the products are
| uncompetitive. Pinephone is an example. Then there was the
| Ubuntu effort.
|
| Android, being partly closed as the GPL2 allows for, is
| proof that Linux can be highly successful without the GNU
| crowd. And perhaps they should stop taking credit for
| software they didn't write. They made the license.
|
| For all the complaining, the free software community hasn't
| designed from the ground up and released one single
| production class handset alternative at a time when the
| culture consumes in the billions. That's says a lot. The
| infighting and utopian idealistic virtue signaling is in
| sharp contrast to the reality of the platforms the GNU
| crowd has built.
| tingletech wrote:
| most of the user space tools originated from GNU (such as
| gcc), linux really just brought the kernel.
| what-imright wrote:
| Just? It's 28 million lines of code, the world's largest
| software project
| neverrroot wrote:
| Guess it depends on what your standards are. You can have it
| everywhere from today to likely never. Want just basic stuff, no
| apps store, no good camera, no good runtime on battery? Today, go
| get one. Value security more than anything else? Available today.
| Want a high end smart phone with proper open source
| Linux/Software and apps store, great camera, fast and great
| battery runtime? Likely never. Linux won't get the required
| investment, nor will the hardware manufacturers provide the
| required support (no incentives). Even the Linux Desktop
| experience can't properly get there in 2022.
|
| But a proper Linux phone, say something like a PinePhone is great
| as a second phone.
| lynndotpy wrote:
| I think it's time we take a descriptivist view of "Linux",
| because there _is_ some hard-to-describe way that Android isn 't
| "Linuxy". If a good mobile graphical BSD OS appeared from nowhere
| , we might consider it "Linuxy-er" than Android.
|
| The presentation does a good job of explaining what is missing
| for a good "Linux smartphone ".
| elagost wrote:
| If anyone actually watched the talk Guido addresses Android at
| about 2 minutes in, and why it's not a actually what Linux users
| want.
| z3t4 wrote:
| Nokia had Linux on their smartphone until Microsoft bought them
| and stopped everything, they even shut down the app store. The OS
| was called MeeGo. Part of the Nokia team however started their
| own company called Jolla and still produce smartphones running
| Linux, they call their OS Sailfish. (ignoring the fact that
| Android also uses the Linux kernel).
|
| The problem with alternative phone OS:es is that in the country I
| live you must have either an iPhone or and Android phone because
| the ID monopoly and Payment monopoly refuse to support other
| operating systems...
| anthonyhn wrote:
| >Nokia had Linux on their smartphone until Microsoft bought
| them and stopped everything, they even shut down the app store.
| The OS was called MeeGo.
|
| There is a fork called Maemo Leste [0][1] that is actually
| still around and updated. I have it running on a droid 4, and
| it works pretty well. The UI is still the same Hildon UI.
| Definitely a fun OS and device to play around with, and
| interesting in that it's the only mobile OS I'm aware of that
| is running Devaun.
|
| [0] https://maemo-leste.github.io/
|
| [1] Technically a fork of Maemo, the predecessor to MeeGo.
| sgc wrote:
| I could get by with only using banking websites in the browser.
| But Why does Jolla not yet support any Pixel phones? I have
| wanted to try it out for years, but not to the point of trying
| to make things work on my own.
| zamadatix wrote:
| Even just unlocking an Android device causes most to stop
| working. I can't even log into PayPal app, which I assume is
| mostly just a WebView, because my phone is unlocked. At the
| same time it is apparently fineI do the same thing from the
| browser on my phone?
| yosito wrote:
| I used an Android phone with CalyxOS and microG for a year
| and never had this problem. There were a few apps I had a
| hard time getting APKs for without the Play Store, but even
| those I found I could side load from other devices that had
| the Play Store.
| cloudymeatballs wrote:
| rvz wrote:
| > while we're picky about free software on our laptops, desktops
| and servers lots of us have a truck load full of proprietary
| software in their pocket every day. Does it have to be that way?
|
| It doesn't have to be like this, but it is also not 'early days'
| anymore and we have given this idea lots of time to gain any
| meaningful traction and it's very clear that there is almost no
| interest from the wider industry.
|
| Thus, as demonstrated for many years of failed alternatives,
| unfortunately buzzwords like 'privacy', 'non-free software' and
| 'Linux' have little to no use to gaining traction and selling to
| mass market in a comparable manner against the existing duopoly.
|
| And before you say 'Android', it is has tons of closed source
| userland software and subsystems and will get even worse once it
| moves over to Fuchsia OS. Therefore 'Android' as a free software
| example is disqualified.
|
| We are talking about Linux distros designed to run on phones with
| 'free software'.
| usrusr wrote:
| But how many man-months of development on the GPL subset of the
| Android stack are funded by the mostly closed product, each
| day? From _some_ angles, I 'd say that it's not a failure at
| all (from others it certainly is), more like working as
| intended.
| jrockway wrote:
| Is this the one time people should be calling it GNU/Linux?
| matrix12 wrote:
| Very fine point. GNU runs on many operating systems, and so
| to conflate GNU and Linux seems absurd.
| cassianoleal wrote:
| GNU runs on many kernels. GNU is part of the operating
| systems where it runs.
| matrix12 wrote:
| GNU is not a boolean value. One can use portions of it
| without throwing away everything they use.
| cassianoleal wrote:
| Fair point, but I was responding to "GNU runs on many
| OSs", saying that GNU is actually part of the OSs (and
| not something that runs on top of it), regardless of how
| much GNU there is in any particular OS.
| amelius wrote:
| Perhaps if someone makes WineHQ but for iOS apps instead of
| Windows applications.
| makz wrote:
| Before answering that question I'd ask: why would we want that?
|
| My answer is no, it didn't work on the desktop, it won't work on
| the smartphone, for more or less the same reasons.
|
| As much as I like Linux and FOSS, Linux is just a bad OS for the
| average consumer.
|
| For hackers, makers, DYI enthusiasts, etc. Linux is wonderful,
| however, what's the market size for a Linux smart phone for this
| people? I bet it's tiny.
| Bilal_io wrote:
| Maybe we can do it backwards this time, take the Chrome
| approach with Linux, build a UI launcher for mobile that is as
| simple as possible and once it's complex and has a healthy
| touch-friendly apps translate it to desktop.
|
| Look at Steam Deck and what they've done. They could use the
| same approach to launch a Phone OS.
| aquaduck wrote:
| Didn't work on the desktop? I've been running Linux exclusively
| on my desktops for 15 years. Desktop Linux is better today than
| it's ever been.
|
| Why does every OS need to be suitable for average consumers?
| Librem and Pine64 are doing great work in the mobile Linux
| space on the hardware side, and projects like PostmarketOS are
| doing great work on the software side. These are niche products
| for motivated enthusiasts, as they should be. They'll never
| grow to billions of users, nor should they. The tech industry's
| "grow massive or the product is worthless" mindset is
| pathological, in my opinion.
| sgc wrote:
| Why is it 'just bad'? I have installed Linux (either Debian or
| Ubuntu) for several non-tech-savvy family members, and they
| have used them for years without incident. I once talked to my
| mom about Linux and she mentioned that her Windows worked great
| for everything, she would never change. I told her to look at
| the splash screen when she booted up ;)! She had been on Linux
| for a good 10 years without noticing.
| usrusrusrusr wrote:
| ddevault wrote:
| I'm typing this comment from a Poco F1 I set up with postmarketOS
| and Phosh earlier this week and so far it's very promising. Will
| write up a proper review next week. Much better than the
| Pinephone so far.
| nextos wrote:
| This sounds very interesting. Can you elaborate a bit further?
| saidinesh5 wrote:
| Not the Op, but Poco F1 has Snapdragon 845, which is like the
| flagship soc 3 years ago, and can boot mainline kernel:
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KtfTJbLiYfg .
|
| Iirc they even got Windows 10 booting on that phone.
| asdfqwertzxcv wrote:
| Looking forward to your review!
| branon wrote:
| This is interesting. Communities like postmarketOS put in a lot
| of effort to adapt their distribution to hardware that would
| otherwise be running Android.
|
| Perhaps targeting commodity hardware is a more viable strategy
| than contending with newer platforms like Pinephone. Sure the
| device is more open, but most of the software support falls on
| the same community of developers. Lord knows they have enough
| build targets to maintain already.
|
| I'm sure there will always be a place for custom hardware like
| Pinephone, Librem 5, but repurposing a flagship Android device
| is going to be a better value proposition for most people.
|
| I own a first-gen Pinephone and it seemed really promising for
| a while. As things got fixed and the state of affairs improved,
| I think everybody's expectations shifted whether they realized
| it or not. Phone calls and SMS work perfectly, but after that
| started working, now I want it to do GPS and navigation. Doing
| this is possible, but pushes the poor Pinephone's hardware to
| its limit.
|
| I think offloading progressively more tasks to a computer is
| perfectly natural, but ultimately (for me at least) this killed
| the Pinephone's viability. I wound up hitting a glass ceiling
| way too soon for comfort.
|
| It's one thing if software support for specific tasks is
| nonexistent - this is a solvable problem, the community marches
| forward and fixes this as a matter of course.
|
| But what do you do when you have the software support, but it
| just doesn't run on your Allwinner A64?
|
| Maybe things have improved yet more since the last time I
| tried. I'll have to check out Pure Maps again.
| linmob wrote:
| Things keep improving, slowly but surely. BTW: Mepo is a
| mapping app that performs great on the PinePhone:
| https://sr.ht/~mil/Mepo/
| zozbot234 wrote:
| > Perhaps targeting commodity hardware is a more viable
| strategy than contending with newer platforms like Pinephone.
|
| It depends on the hardware. If it can be properly supported
| on the mainline kernel, then sure. Otherwise, you're not
| gaining all that much compared to just running a "cooked"
| Android-based ROM.
| [deleted]
| Havoc wrote:
| Inclined to say no - mainly because of the camera. The gap
| between ability to mechanically take a pic and what the flagships
| are doing with AI driven post processing seems not only big but
| growing.
|
| Short of die hard linux/FOSS fans noticably worse pics is going
| to be an absolute show stopper
| mixmastamyk wrote:
| Shoot raw then import into darktable. This seems like the
| simplest way to get there until more infrastructure is
| developed.
| __d wrote:
| If that's the simplest way to get a decent photo, then Linux
| phones are going to have a _very_ limited audience.
| zekica wrote:
| Look at what Intel is doing with MIPI IPU6 webcams. The
| solution already exists.
| johndough wrote:
| The problem is not AI - many of the best "AI" publications are
| open source after all. The problem is that hardware vendors do
| not provide access to their signal processing chip's internals.
| It is damn near impossible to even make a phone call these days
| without some obscure binary blob or magic chips that nobody
| knows what they do but are able to control every aspect of a
| phone.
| michaelt wrote:
| _> many of the best "AI" publications are open source after
| all._
|
| In my experience there's also very little _detailed_
| documentation about what cutting-edge phone cameras are
| doing.
|
| You can get some vague descriptions (focus stacking? exposure
| stacking? ISO stacking? ML bokeh? Special handling of faces
| in multiracial groups? Shake compensation? Super-resolution?)
| which is all very well shooting from a tripod - yet modern
| phone cameras do their magic at 4k 60fps even while moving?
| All while running on battery?
| megous wrote:
| Some do. Pinephone Pro's ISP has some public docs and
| mainline Linux support.
| [deleted]
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(page generated 2022-08-23 23:00 UTC)