[HN Gopher] H1B rejected - builds unicorn back home
___________________________________________________________________
H1B rejected - builds unicorn back home
Author : kumarm
Score : 205 points
Date : 2022-08-23 12:35 UTC (10 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (twitter.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (twitter.com)
| throwawsy wrote:
| Most of the top talented engineers i met at meetups are commited
| to build companies in India. Defence, Infra, Fintech, Medical,
| Space and Drug sectors are the ones most popular. we are going
| see future unicorns from these sectors.
| dudul wrote:
| How do you identify a "top talented engineer" at a meet up? It
| could be a useful trick for interview.
| martin1975 wrote:
| Don't fret. You're probably better off in the nicely developed
| parts in India as an engineer than anywhere in the USA.
| aleem wrote:
| Three worst addictions: Heroine, Carbohydrates and a monthly
| salary - Nassim Taleb
|
| It's more common for people who are in-between jobs to take
| things that would be otherwise compromise their monthly salary
| income. It's less common for someone to quit a high paying job
| and take on a risky endeavour.
|
| Relatedly, the Tarzan strategy is another way to mitigate this
| risk (side projects or finding your next gig before just quitting
| the current), etc. Called Tarzan because you hang on to the next
| rope before letting go of the current one.
| datpuz wrote:
| I would think alcohol would be worse than carbohydrates
| quickthrower2 wrote:
| I take Heroin here to really mean all narcotics including
| alcohol. I think crystal meth would be worse than heroin
| anyway, but have no direct or indirect experience.
|
| Low carb diet is and giving up alcohol completely: I
| recommend people try.
|
| Taleb forgot workaholism.
| c2xlZXB5Cg wrote:
| alcohol is a carbohydrate with a twist.
| NovemberWhiskey wrote:
| That's neither chemically nor biochemically accurate.
| vaidhy wrote:
| You twist carbohydrate and you get hydrocarbons. It is
| just linguistically accurate :)
| manuelabeledo wrote:
| > Three worst addictions: Heroine, Carbohydrates and a monthly
| salary - Nassim Taleb
|
| Nassim Taleb is a bit of a wack.
|
| This sentence doesn't make sense. I really hope it was taken
| out of context, because otherwise, there's absolutely no value
| to it other than glorifying risk for the sake of it. May as
| well be talking about gambling money away.
| geodel wrote:
| Huh, just a couple of centuries back maybe 90% of world
| population was self employed. It was not the greatest risk
| but simply a way of life.
| dahfizz wrote:
| Being a subsistence farmer was incredibly risky. One bad
| year and your whole family starves to death. People only
| did that because there was no alternative. As soon as the
| industrial revolution came, people left their "self
| employment" en masse to work at a company.
| delusional wrote:
| Not even "work at a company". Most of the dairy farmers
| here where I'm from are part of a collective called Arla
| where the independent dairy farmers collaborate,
| effectively building their own safety net with an
| organization that could support them if they had a bad
| year.
|
| Companies are not required, but social safety nets are
| hugely important for modern systems of production.
| manmal wrote:
| Self employed in the sense of being part of the gig economy
| (serfdom), working all day for a modest living under Uber
| (local ruler of the day). The risk was dying when the next
| war broke out or it stopped raining for a year.
| NovemberWhiskey wrote:
| A couple of centuries back, wasn't most of the world
| population subsistence farming in conditions broadly
| described as serfdom?
| trhway wrote:
| yes, describing the serfdom as "self-employment" reminds
| how some in US describe the slaves brought here back then
| as "immigrants" or "labor migrants".
| pessimizer wrote:
| That's because it wasn't risky to get a job as a helper to
| a working professional, learn their trade while doing the
| worst/easiest part of the work, transition to doing skilled
| work while having your helpers do the crapwork and the
| professional did inspection and finishing, then either
| taking over the shop from the professional, partnering with
| the professional, or opening your own shop with your
| already established customers.
|
| So completely unrelated to the modern world.
| Temporary_31337 wrote:
| Can anyone point me to how much the guy had actually earned? I
| feel that if he'd stayed in the US and earned Microsoft stock
| options he'd be much better off financially
| renewiltord wrote:
| Absolutely impossible that MS stock options as a Software
| Engineer in 2007 gave you $200m plus today.
| xtreme wrote:
| There is more to life than chasing TC.
| coding123 wrote:
| Is that all that matters to people these days?
| short_sells_poo wrote:
| No but if we want to quantify whether a decision was a net
| win or not, a valid approach is to express it in monetary
| terms. There are other approaches, some more objective some
| less, but money is simple.
|
| E.g. if I worked at MS and over 10 years built a capital of
| $1mln, vs having worked in India and built a capital of
| $300k, there may be other considerations, but in purely
| monetary terms the MS approach would've been much better.
| Further compound interest will make the $1mln wealth run away
| much faster than $300k.
| techenthusiast1 wrote:
| The latest news I can find shows the company he founded was
| planning to IPO at a valuation of $2.5billion. If one were to
| assume the founder owns 10% of the company (reasonable at IPO
| based on what I know), he would have made about $250 million in
| equity. [https://www.business-
| standard.com/article/companies/snapdeal...]
|
| This is in addition to about $650k annual salary in India.
| [https://www.zeebiz.com/companies/news-snapdeal-co-
| founders-k...]
|
| This would be pretty much impossible even with a very
| successful career at Microsoft, short of becoming an SVP or the
| CEO.
| Ar-Curunir wrote:
| Err, even disregarding the fact that there's more to life than
| the money you earn, staying in the US wasn't even an option for
| him.
| paulgb wrote:
| Since it's not mentioned in the tweet, the unicorn in question is
| Snapdeal. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snapdeal
| erichocean wrote:
| An enormous loss for America, no doubt.
| keepquestioning wrote:
| This must be sarcastic because this seems like Amazon.
| xwdv wrote:
| It's not a public company so there's no reason to care
| about this. You cannot invest in it. You cannot benefit
| from it. You can merely use it, but as you said, it's just
| a shittier version of Amazon, so why bother?
| erichocean wrote:
| Snapdeal revenue (not profit, just top-line revenue) in
| 2021 (after 11 years in business): $64 million USD
|
| Is that _Amazon_ -like? Amazon was founded in 1994 and AWS
| was created in 2006, 12 years later. Did Snapdeal launch
| their own Indian AWS competitor in 2022? How's their
| revenue growth holding up compared to Amazon?
|
| For comparison, my own 4 person e-commerce startup had
| ~$6.4 million in revenue in 2021 with gross margins around
| 30%. Of course, we've only been in business since 2018, not
| 2010 like Snapdeal. If we take Softbank money (2014,
| Snapdeal), will we also be an _Amazon_ -like "unicorn" in
| seven years with mediocre revenue?
| keepquestioning wrote:
| Are you converting currency?
| [deleted]
| unknownaccount wrote:
| I wouldnt want this unprofessional person working for me. Look at
| how he lazily half-censored the names of his co-workers at
| Microsoft that sent/cc the email, in such a way that you can
| easily read it.
| going_ham wrote:
| Does it mean it costed the US of potential opportunities? I don't
| think it made any difference in the US. But it surely helped in
| his home country.
|
| While we are at it, what do you think of current visa issue in
| the USA? For a long time, I thought it was difficult only to
| people of Asian countries to migrate to US, but turns out it is
| equally difficult for any other nations.
|
| In the long term, does it make a difference in US if it doesn't
| bring talent across the world? Of course, there are a lot of
| talent and there is always someone willing to move to US. So it
| shouldn't be an issue, should it?
| strikelaserclaw wrote:
| agree, since India is like 5-10 years behind USA in the tech
| space, most unicorns in India are just companies that already
| exist in some form in USA. In India, the execution of a
| business is the hard part by far, and not the novelty of the
| idea.
| factorialboy wrote:
| > since India is like 5-10 years behind USA in the tech
| space, most unicorns in India are just companies that already
| exist in some form in USA.
|
| There are some areas where India has leapfrogged ahead of
| United States and China. Look at digital payments for
| instance.
|
| Since the 90's we have seen countless examples of how US /
| western products and services cannot be sold as-is.
|
| Like all markets, India is unique. It also happens to be
| significant in size and companies homegrown and global focus
| on addressing local needs.
| zht wrote:
| sorry in what way has India's digital payments space
| leapfrogged China's? Do you know what WeChat/Alipay are?
| ignoramous wrote:
| > _...since India is like 5-10 years behind USA in the tech
| space_
|
| The fact that the tech scene in the West (which is the
| place where most things _happen_ ) is white-male dominated
| and likely outranks Indians by a factor of 10x (?), which
| means, as a group, they're likely to accomplish 10x in a
| lot of metrics.
|
| Also, India is roughly 5x / 10x behind the US in tech
| salaries too (amidst high inflation and weakening
| currency), resulting in the infamous brain drain to the
| West (where they then make things _happen_ , if they catch
| a break).
| sbmthakur wrote:
| How exactly? In certain sectors like payments, India appears
| to be ahead of the US by certain years thanks to UPI.
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unified_Payments_Interface
| adamsmith143 wrote:
| This is true all over the world. Some of the most valuable
| companies in Asia or South America are just Uber or Doordash
| clones for example.
| aldebran wrote:
| This is just categorically false. Shopping / delivery /
| payments are a few categories where startups in India are
| doing much better.
| manishsharan wrote:
| >>India is like 5-10 years behind USA in the tech space
|
| I don't quite understand this. Do you mean that they are
| still using Internet Explorer , Java 5 , Windows 7 and
| Myspace?
|
| Please explain.
| DiggyJohnson wrote:
| This idiom is referring to the maturity of their tech
| industry at a high level, not their tooling (though that
| could be a minor part of it).
|
| As an example, a country with paper-only tax filing might
| be said to be a decade behind a country with easy online
| e-file. It's referring to the difference in technical
| capabilities, capacity, and/or innovation.
| TomVDB wrote:
| Putting a check in the mail (or pressing some button on a
| web form to make it so) is one of the things that comes
| to mind.
| 22c wrote:
| I guess they're trying to say that things like Uber,
| Amazon, Door Dash, AirBNB, Venmo etc. have a strong
| foothold in USA, but in India there's a lot of "home grown"
| alternatives that have beaten the US big tech to adapt to
| the Indian market. eg. Ola, Flipkart, Paytm, etc.
| deadcoder0904 wrote:
| dude no. most foreign apps won't work in india bcz we don't
| like to pay for apps.
|
| "people come to india for dau, not arpu" ~ kunal shah on the
| knowledge project [0]
|
| tiktok executed perfectly bcz they were optimizing for dau
| but even flipkart is doing better than amazon here. many apps
| just won't work bcz they don't understand. see how netflix
| lost by asking to pay?
|
| people don't understand india as much as they think they do
| so i'd suggest you to watch the video below as it covers
| actual india from an actual indian who understands it.
|
| [0]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nl1PIagzgUo
| madmax108 wrote:
| I feel that a reason for this is the cheap human labor
| available in India, which naturally allows manual-powered
| processes to scale much more easily in India compared to tech
| solutions. Also, given the sheer size of the market, even
| building CRUD apps backed by manual labor for more and more
| niche use-cases can still garner a lot of users (but revenue
| per user is still quite low). And note that there is nearly
| no upside to actually replace the manual component or build
| state of the art tech solutions because labor costs are
| relatively small and non-prohibitive
|
| Related recent thread on Twitter which discussed some of
| these ideas: https://twitter.com/championswimmer/status/15339
| 066147383910...
| kshacker wrote:
| > Does it mean it costed the US of potential opportunities? I
| don't think it made any difference in the US. But it surely
| helped in his home country.
|
| Our immigration service hands out N visas a year. You reject
| one, someone else will pick up that slot. On an average it
| should not make a difference either for US or the other country
| unless they are so small their number of visas doubled or
| something because of this one reject.
|
| > In the long term, does it make a difference in US if it
| doesn't bring talent across the world?
|
| Yes it does make a difference, but fixing that has other
| impacts. In the 90s when the H1 visa regime started (or got
| big), if someone in Ceylon wanted to write software for an
| American company, they probably could not do it, at least in
| the early 90s. They did not have too many other options so US
| not acquiring an available talent did not impact them. Nowadays
| such un-acquired talent can do anything - set up a company,
| work for Russia (or choose any other name who you would rather
| not have acquire talent, maybe an oil company). However, the
| fix is not so simple. To acquire all the talent pool would
| require upping our immigration intake many fold, and that is
| not going to happen for various reasons (politics, cost, limits
| to how much immigration can you absorb).
| davidw wrote:
| > N visas a year
|
| That number is pretty clearly a number pulled out of
| someone's ass, rather than anything 'scientific'. It's a nice
| round number that sounded good to someone, but is pretty
| completely disconnected from reality.
| petilon wrote:
| > _In the long term, does it make a difference in US if it
| doesn 't bring talent across the world?_
|
| Of course, it does! The only reason the standard of living in
| the US is higher than anywhere else in the world is because the
| US makes stuff the rest of the world covets.
|
| America is the leading economy in the world today not because
| it has the most number of people, but because it has the best
| and the brightest, gathered from around the world. We have the
| smartest people not because the smartest people of the world
| were all born here, but because smart people born elsewhere
| have been immigrating to the United States. Stopping this is
| not the path to creating jobs.
|
| US tech exports in 2018 was $338 billion. Tech is our biggest
| export by far. Think of the US tech industry as a siphon that
| sucks in wealth from foreign countries. Would you want to make
| that siphon bigger or smaller? If you want to make that siphon
| bigger -- and more competitive -- how would you do it? By
| limiting the people that can work in tech to whoever you can
| find locally, or by bringing in the smartest people from around
| the world?
|
| Keep in mind that the money this siphon brings in is not only
| benefiting tech workers and tech shareholders. When the money
| is spent it turns the wheels of our economy, which leads to
| prosperity for all Americans, not just the few that work in
| tech.
|
| Think of the tech industry as a way to suck money from foreign
| countries and pump it into the economy of our country. The
| beneficiaries include all Americans, including those who work
| in restaurants, retail, healthcare, insurance, education,
| housing, transportation, entertainment and so on.
|
| Limiting tech industry to whoever companies can find locally
| will hurt its global competitiveness. Such a move will not just
| hurt the few would-be tech immigrants that are prevented from
| immigrating, but American prosperity in general.
| ALittleLight wrote:
| I think there are several countries, across North and Western
| Europe, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, perhaps Singapore and
| Hong Kong, that could compete with the US for "standard of
| living". These countries don't have similar immigration
| policies or histories compared to the US.
|
| If you think of a person who builds a unicorn as a national
| level resource, which makes sense because they create jobs,
| capabilities, and wealth, then you seem to be saying that it
| is good for the US to drain the national resources of other,
| poorer countries. Why isn't a good thing for Indian
| entrepreneurs to create Indian unicorns in India?
| FredPret wrote:
| I'm an engineer that moved to Canada. Let me tell you, I am
| here because they made it easy (or at least do-able) to
| come, and the people made it extremely pleasant to stay.
|
| In America, you also get the mostly immigrant-friendly
| culture, but it's orders of magnitude harder and more
| involved to get there. So it's not even on my radar.
| MichaelCollins wrote:
| Judging by the high quantity and quality of Canadian
| engineers I've worked with in America, I think Canada
| welcomes foreign engineers because all their domestic
| engineers already left for America.
| ALittleLight wrote:
| Canada's immigration system favors engineers and skilled
| professionals. As the comment I was replying to put it
| this is a way for rich countries, like Canada, to drain
| the resources of poorer countries. This process benefits
| you, because you prefer to live in Canada compared to
| your home country, and it benefits Canada, because they
| get more professionals, but it hurts your home country
| who loses professionals.
| FredPret wrote:
| What do Canada, and I, owe my home country?
|
| Arguing I should stay there because I was born there is
| not even just nativism, it implies countries own their
| citizens as property. This idea would set the whole world
| back.
|
| If they wanted me to stay, they could have tried harder
| to create a nice environment for smart people there.
| ALittleLight wrote:
| This is simply an improved version of colonization - rich
| countries extracting resources from the poor. Only now,
| the rich countries don't have to bother with the
| maintenance of the poor countries - they just drain the
| valuable citizens and leave the rest.
|
| As to what you, or Canada, owe your home country - this
| is a nonsense question. Either there are moral
| obligations between people or there aren't. If there are,
| then the rich taking from the poor (Canada importing
| professionals) or the relatively well off abandoning
| their poor countrymen (professionals departing their
| homeland for better lives in rich countries) are likely
| failing those moral obligations. If there are no moral
| obligations you owe nothing but neither is anyone else
| obliged to not point out the resource extraction.
| FredPret wrote:
| Where are the lines of obligation drawn? Do I owe
| allegiance to my home country, which is a political
| entity with arbitrary borders? If so, why? Or do I owe my
| efforts and talents to the poorest people? Again, why? Or
| to all humanity? To my family, to like-minded
| individuals?
|
| If you think it's wrong for me to have emigrated for a
| better life, well, off you go then, you go save the
| people of Africa.
| petilon wrote:
| Australia takes in twice as many immigrants per year,
| compared to the US, as a percentage of their population.
| Canada almost 4 times as many. Singapore, New Zealand and
| Hong Kong too take in more immigrants than the US.
| ALittleLight wrote:
| Canada and Australia both use a points based immigration
| system. Both countries are isolated from land borders
| that can be easily crossed. Contrast this with the non-
| points based immigration system in the US and tens of
| millions of immigrants from South and Central America. As
| I wrote - different immigration systems.
| [deleted]
| pyb wrote:
| All of the countries you cited have a lot of immigrants.
| 62951413 wrote:
| Shouldn't the government do more to promote equality? The
| current approach makes possible to arbitrage at scale when
| the government can
|
| * bring in a large number of already educated (for free or
| _much_ cheaper) foreigners
|
| * often from an upper middle class background in their home
| countries
|
| * progressively lower the bar on the secondary education for
| Americans to jeopardize their chances of competing with
| foreigners for STEM majors and eventually jobs in high-tech.
| Which hits the disappearing [lower] middle class the hardest.
|
| * keep college education significantly more expensive than it
| is for the very same foreigners
| bobthepanda wrote:
| * part of the problem is that education is not funded much
| federally but mostly by cash strapped states and
| localities, and there are many reasons why politicians and
| parents may not want local control or funding to be
| loosened.
|
| * part of the problem is that there are huge segments of
| politicians who are not interested in or do not want
| equality, and to that end even actively try to destroy
| education
| slt2021 wrote:
| americans can do the same - move to Europe for college and
| get higher education for a fraction of cost/almost free.
|
| then come back debt free with great education.
|
| I dont understand why Americans are not taking advantage of
| these arbitrage opportunities. You don't need government to
| do anything for you, just take your destiny in your own
| hands
| topspin wrote:
| > But it surely helped in his home country.
|
| Likely. The absorption of young, motivated people by the US is
| a major loss for their origin nations. Why this never seems to
| be a concern for anyone involved is the proverbial gorilla in
| the room.
| manuelabeledo wrote:
| > While we are at it, what do you think of current visa issue
| in the USA? For a long time, I thought it was difficult only to
| people of Asian countries to migrate to US, but turns out it is
| equally difficult for any other nations.
|
| I suffered the consequences of the ongoing visa mayhem myself,
| losing my job in early 2022. Luckily, I received my green card
| soon afterwards.
|
| The US immigration policies, especially for work and talent
| related visas, are incredibly disconnected from reality. There
| is still no mechanism in place to curb the abuse by IT
| consultancy companies, aka "visa mills". Instead, we have
| brilliant people rejected because of their nationality, not
| their achievements. Even worse, people with 5, 10, 15 years in
| the country, high earners and taxpayers, may see themselves
| kicked out because bureaucracy is just slow.
|
| > Of course, there are a lot of talent and there is always
| someone willing to move to US. So it shouldn't be an issue,
| should it?
|
| It is. At some point, money won't justify the looming feeling
| of insecurity, and people will be less willing to leave their
| home countries and come to the US.
|
| Even now, immigrating to the US is prohibitively expensive. The
| talent pool is being reduced to those who can either afford it,
| or are sponsored by their companies, and this doesn't guarantee
| that the best and brightest are the ones arriving anyway.
| geodel wrote:
| I guess happy ending for every one. US got enough H1Bs that's why
| rejected excess applications. Indian govt get to crow about
| thriving startup ecosystem. And Indians got some cheap deals on
| fashion and other household goods. As a result of all this, this
| guy got to be billionaire or some such.
| yardie wrote:
| Note this was in 2007, during the height of the H1B body shop
| scams. The USCIS visa system was overwhelmed by companies like
| Infosys and Tata just submitting 1000s of applications for
| clearly underqualified, yet cheap candidates for jobs that didn't
| exist. This writer probably got their visa rejected over a less
| qualified candidate because of the quota limits for H1b.
| kioleanu wrote:
| Why is this getting downvoted? It seems to provide a bit of
| context. The situation is never black and white
| the_svd_doctor wrote:
| It's much much harder today than it ever was in the past, see
| https://redbus2us.com/h1b-visa-cap-reach-dates-history-graph...
|
| FY 2008/2009 were indeed a bit of outliers at the time, but
| since 2014/2015 it's getting worst and worst. FY 2023 had
| 483,000 applications for ~85k total slots.
| SloopJon wrote:
| I don't know what Kunal's temporary work authorization was, but
| note also that the STEM extension for the OPT program has been
| tweaked in recent years, so that you can typically get three
| bites at the H-1B apple while you're still on an F-1 visa.
| aldebran wrote:
| This is unfortunately still the case. H1B lottery is still a
| thing. I had to lose a team member and the person saw a similar
| email in their inbox. Sucks!
| tablespoon wrote:
| > This is unfortunately still the case. H1B lottery is still
| a thing. I had to lose a team member and the person saw a
| similar email in their inbox. Sucks!
|
| The lottery is still a thing, but I vaguely recall that a few
| years ago they slapped down some of the foreign outsourcing
| companies that were abusing the system. I'm I remembering
| correctly?
| didip wrote:
| The lottery is still a thing but not for India and China.
| sauravjain wrote:
| wdym by this? it most definitely is still a lottery
| [deleted]
| iLoveOncall wrote:
| I think you are talking about the Green Card lottery which
| doesn't allow certains countries that have had too many
| immigrants in the past 7 (I think) years. The H1-B lottery
| doesn't have country limitations.
| paxys wrote:
| 2007-2012 was actually the easiest period to get an H-1B visa.
| It has become significantly harder since then.
| hibikir wrote:
| It was in no way the easiest: For that you have to go back to
| 2001-2003, where there were 195k available visas every year,
| instead of the current 85k. Visas would still run out, but
| the big race to submit on the first day, which eventually
| gave us the lottery, came later.
|
| It wasn't all easy though: All those extra H-1s didn't come
| with extra green card slots, so even an EB2 from Europe had a
| very long wait.
| diogenescynic wrote:
| Simple solution is to give visas to the applicants with the
| highest salaries instead of just giving these out at random.
| slt2021 wrote:
| US will lose most nurses and other non-tech, but essential
| talent
| diogenescynic wrote:
| Pay them more if they are so vital then. Or would the
| business really rather just go out of business instead of
| raising wages? And if the business can't operate without
| raising wages, maybe it's not a sustainable business anyways.
| hibikir wrote:
| A variety of other non-software jobs also rely on H-1Bs: See,
| for instance, lab technicians. A change to highest salaries,
| while probably way better for the software industry, and
| applicants in general, would wipe out other sectors.
|
| The system definitely needs fixing, but simple solutions often
| have all kinds of negative side effects.
| diogenescynic wrote:
| The simple solution is to pay them more if they are so vital.
| Their value is directly related to their pay.
|
| The issue often isn't that talent can't be found... it's that
| talent can't be found at the price the corporation wants to
| pay. We need to encourage corporations to pay more which
| should correspond to the most essential positions needed, not
| just find the cheapest worker.
| MichaelCollins wrote:
| This is obviously the answer. Rank the H1B applicants by salary
| and let the most valuable in first. This will force companies
| to consider how much a worker is _actually_ worth.
| colinmhayes wrote:
| Or just give out more visas to educated workers?
| Something1234 wrote:
| Wouldn't that be unfair to any potential start ups that needed
| an H1B for some complex subject matter?
| diogenescynic wrote:
| If your startup is already H-1B dependent, then I don't feel
| super bad. Raise more and find local talent at the market
| rate or go out of business--but startups aren't entitled to a
| pool of cheap, foreign labor via H-1Bs.
| zb1plus wrote:
| avasylev wrote:
| Curious if you have example of racist US visa/immigration
| policy? There's a lot deserved criticism of current system, but
| can't think of anything specifically racist.
| giobox wrote:
| Green card quotas are based entirely on your country of
| birth.
|
| For example, a UK citizen can obtain a green card far, far
| faster than an Indian citizen. If a UK citizen and Indian
| citizen on an H1B visa start the Green Card process at the
| same time, the UK citizen will obtain permanent residency
| typically in 9-18 months. For the Indian applicant, who
| applied on same day with same visa and process, it will
| likely be over 10 years before they have security of
| permanent residence.
|
| Where you were born is built into the foundations of how the
| USA allocates Green Cards to many visa holders, regardless of
| who you are, how much you contribute to the USA or earn etc
| etc.
|
| There are attempts to fix this too:
|
| > https://www.fwd.us/news/per-country-cap-reform-priority-
| bill...
| alibarber wrote:
| The UK is an interesting example given that it's,
| effectively, the only country in Europe that cannot take
| part in the annual GC lottery. And even then, Northern
| Ireland is exempt from that.
|
| This has got something to do with the amount of British
| people who are already in the US, and I expect in the case
| of your example, that might also have something to do with
| the number of Indian H1B holders.
| zb1plus wrote:
| Exactly, H1B visas should be entirely blind to country of
| origin since to do otherwise would amount to de facto
| racism due to the racial demographics of many countries.
| _-david-_ wrote:
| Nationality and race are not intrinsically linked so I am
| not sure how that is racism?
| noufalibrahim wrote:
| This is definitely an inspiring story but isn't it an isolated
| data point?
|
| On average, the US has a lot of things going for it for a young
| software professional if he or she can navigate the immigration
| maze and is reasonably lucky. Might not be for everyone but for
| the _average_ person, getting a cushy job in a large company
| might be better for stability and long term satisfaction that
| risking it on an attempt to create a unicorn (which is rarely
| successful).
| anukin wrote:
| Its an extremely isolated data point. He was born rich. Had the
| money and privilege to do coaching to go to an elite Indian
| engineering college. Went to US from there. When he came back
| his buddies from college where VCs. They funded him. His
| startup collapsed terribly even after so much of luck,
| privilege and funding. So now he gives outdated gyaan(wisdom)
| in Twitter.
| jitix wrote:
| This is true everywhere tbh. Bill Gates, Mark Zuckerberg,
| Jeff Bezos all came from families that were upper-middle
| class or rich.
|
| It's not a bad thing imo since families should strive to
| improve their situation with every generation, but it's
| important to highlight that rags-to-riches stories are
| extremely rare.
|
| There are probably many who also got their visa rejected and
| were stuck with huge loans for their studies and an Indian
| salary, or had to move to EU/CANZUK countries as a second
| option.
| redox99 wrote:
| Doesn't that make his point stronger? If you are well
| connected, rich, and went to an elite college, it would make
| even more sense for the US to give you the visa.
| quickthrower2 wrote:
| If you are that rich maybe go there on an investment type
| of visa. Buy a farm, then do tech.
| abc_lisper wrote:
| That's the thing with all the interesting stories though. I'm
| in no way criticizing you, just thought about this for a while.
| If we let ourselves guided by interesting(and thus rare)
| stories, we are obviously setting ourselves for failure,
| because that's not playing the game that needs to be played.
| throw0821374 wrote:
| .
| abc_lisper wrote:
| They also make choices and compromises people in US don't.
| Every interaction in India is loaded with suspicion.
| Dishonesty is the baseline. Disrespect is the norm.
| Xenophobia is common. Insecurity is the guiding North Star.
| Entitlement is prevalent. Hard work is looked down. Rules are
| for fools and loyalty (however earned/enforced) is
| everything. I love my country, but those are the facts.
| [deleted]
| dxbydt wrote:
| In the early 1990s when I came here, the prevailing wisdom was
| that its categorically better to immigrate to the US from India
| if you get a chance. India was too far back in the tech space,
| too much bureaucracy, corruption, red-tape etc etc...
|
| In the 2020s, the consensus is quite mixed. A lot of people I
| personally worked with, who successfully got their visas and
| green cards, have given it all up and gone straight back to India
| because that's where the action is. It was quite baffling to me
| because it takes a _lot of work_ to get these documents. But
| after a few trips to India, I must say it makes a lot of sense.
| The startup funding situation, tech jobs hiring scenario, cost of
| living, telecom, healthcare, no prevalence of gun culture...every
| aspect is much better in India _currently_ than the US. If you
| have high 6 low 7 figure USD saved up, and not too deeply tied to
| the US, you should consider moving back if you want to tap into a
| potential windfall. That said, if you only have 5 figure USD,
| coming to the US is the better option if you can swing it. If you
| 're already here on a visa, stay frugal & grow that nest egg.
| Going back with a 5 figure sum is quite risky unless you have
| some solid contacts in the startup space or are ok with the
| Indian job scene. Interviews over there are _insanely_
| competitive. 500+ LC. Kids just stay at home grinding LC all day.
| There are dedicated youtube channels in Hindi & other regional
| lang telling you how to dynamic program, backtrack, div &
| conquer, two pointer....its a whole different scene.
| cyanydeez wrote:
| Aside from the same far right nationalists making headway in
| authoritarian, it probably would be great
| candiodari wrote:
| What's "LC" ?
| [deleted]
| advisedwang wrote:
| LeetCode I think
| cercatrova wrote:
| One reason not to go back to India: climate change and heat.
| People are basically burning alive there and due to the high
| population, many people will starve in the coming decades as
| droughts cause crop failures. This will cause food and water
| wars as rising instability of the subcontinent means many
| people will need asylum. The area will not be geopolitically,
| financially, or otherwise stable in such a time. If I were a
| betting person, I'd move as close to the poles as possible in
| the coming future.
| frontman1988 wrote:
| Not to forget the air pollution. The PM 2.5 levels are
| morbidly high. Millions of deaths are linked to air
| pollution. People in their 40s,50s are increasingly dying of
| cardiac arrest, more and more kids have asthama and other
| lung diseases. Delhi is literally a gas chamber, even
| Bangalore air is mostly at unhealthy level. Given the
| population density and increasing industrialization, this
| problem is only going to increase in the next 10-15 years.
| YetAnotherNick wrote:
| > People are basically burning alive there and due to the
| high population
|
| This is only true for poor people. It might sound bad, but
| average Indian live much worse life than someone who could
| afford/have skills to visit US.
| cercatrova wrote:
| Yes, however due to there being significantly more poor
| people than rich people, especially tech workers, there
| will be antagonizing behavior in the future. There will be
| country-wide instability, and even if you're rich, a
| comparatively rich country like in Europe or the US will be
| substantially more stable than one with a higher degree of
| income inequality.
| LZ_Khan wrote:
| Is that why my LeetCode ranking is always so depressingly
| abysmal? My solutions are always bottom 25% of speed and space
| usage, and the pass rate for some of their questions are way
| higher than my average.
| sremani wrote:
| People are making an error based on the past 20 years of debt
| binge and capital flooding that took over the world.
|
| When the FDI dries up, India is a very weird place. The energy
| costs will put a number in Asia and Europe in the next decade
| with dramatic food security challenges.
|
| Overall, at macro level, US beats India, but are there positive
| offshoots in some niches.. perhaps!
| naravara wrote:
| The US may beat India in macro level economic factors for
| quite a while to come, but for a more senior professional
| with a marketable resume I think it's not too hard to find
| the positive niches.
|
| Honestly the main thing that keeps me from moving back is
| quality of life concerns with traffic, air quality, and noise
| pollution.
| radicaldreamer wrote:
| I think the pollution, weather, water quality, noise, dust,
| and overall lack of high quality public spaces is a big
| deal.
|
| India is amazing and dynamic in a lot of ways, but there
| are major intangibles to account for (like how much one
| values a quiet evening walk in fresh air).
| Ar-Curunir wrote:
| You don't have to live in a Delhi or a Mumbai or a
| Bangalore. Cities like Dehradun, Ranchi, and more provide
| many of these amenities.
| jitix wrote:
| I grew up in a state capital and lived in 2 metro cities
| and honestly the infrastructure was better in my home
| city in terms of electricity, water and flooding. But
| there are very few tech jobs, which gives the 2-3
| employers there huge leverage due to the lack of job
| mobility.
|
| Hopefully between fibre penetration and WFH culture
| things will improve.
| sremani wrote:
| The most important amenity is Employment. Only a small
| portion of people would move to tier-2 seconds and that
| too because of familial ties not some over whelming
| amenities.
|
| By and large NRIs moving back from US end up in the usual
| metros at least in the beginning.
| rakejake wrote:
| Not all countries are blessed with the nature's bounty that
| the US is blessed with. I agree Energy is something India
| will be working on furiously in the coming decade. I presume
| both nuclear and renewable will be expanded rapidly. In the
| interim, India does have good relationships with most energy
| producing countries (Russia, Saudi).
|
| What food security challenges does India have? India has been
| much poorer in the past and hasn't had any food security
| issues in a long time.
| jamal-kumar wrote:
| I remember when the price of onions went from well under a
| dollar for a single large onion to about a dollar or more
| for a large one when there was an enormous amount of
| flooding in india around 2019-2020, ruining their crops.
| Apparently the onion is a huge staple out there compared to
| the Americas and so they needed to source onions from
| pretty much everywhere else.
|
| It sounds like a trivial price increase maybe to some
| people in more affluent countries but some in Latin
| America, it was a pretty challenging price increase.
|
| My personal groceries bill is about 25$usd per week, meat
| vegetables and a bit of cereal goods. Used to be less
| within a decade ago, but hey what can you do - North
| America I was paying closer to 100
| eldaisfish wrote:
| India is entirely dependent on the monsoon for fresh water.
| When combined with a warming climate, this is a disaster
| waiting to happen. I am 100% confident that we will live to
| see the days when food scarcity returns to India. Mind you,
| indian soils are some of the most fertile in the world so
| this really is an alarming scenario.
|
| India's past issues with food scarcity were due to a
| combination of mismanagement and theft. Partly the british
| empire and partly the lack of skills in India. Widespread
| crop failures haven't been a thing for a while now.
| wowokay wrote:
| I feel like a good relationship with Russia is not a plus
| for India right now.
| vkou wrote:
| Why? They treat eachother like partners, not like vassal
| states, and the rest of the world is _not_ treating India
| like a pariah, despite its relationship with Russia.
|
| It's a win-win for India.
| weatherlite wrote:
| India is getting Russian oil pretty cheap now as far as I
| know, and most likely Iran as well. The U.S is not immune to
| the energy problem btw, Shale oil is getting more expensive
| because all the easy spots were already used.
| frontman1988 wrote:
| India imports more than 90% of it's oil.India hardly has
| any natural energy reserves good enough for it's huge
| population. It's definitely going to be tough to fullfill
| the aspirations of 1.5 billion people who will have
| increasing energy demands while supply will be perennially
| limited. If per capita consumption of India even has to
| reach China levels, it's going to be a massive challenge
| even with renewables involved. Energy security of India
| doesn't look good unless they try doing something like the
| good old introducing democracy in the middle east.
| sremani wrote:
| I cannot argue here. What would go wrong, if Russian Oil
| and Gas are foundational to your Energy Security.
|
| Let me call Angela Merkel.
| weatherlite wrote:
| It's very unlikely Russia will do anything to mess up
| what they have going with China and India...because they
| don't have much other alternatives. I am not talking
| morals here ... I am calling it as it is. This has
| nothing to do with morals.
| bluGill wrote:
| If Russia did reasonable things they wouldn't have
| attacked Ukraine. Since we are talking about a Russia
| willing to do stupid things there is no reason to believe
| they won't mess with India or China.
| hello_moto wrote:
| > 500+ LC. Kids just stay at home grinding LC all day. There
| are dedicated youtube channels in Hindi & other regional lang
| telling you how to dynamic program, backtrack, div & conquer,
| two pointer....its a whole different scene.
|
| That's because it is a deeply rooted culture/attitude of the
| people in India (or other developing countries): intellectual
| one-upmanship (i.e.: my "brain" is bigger than yours).
|
| Nobody wants to be perceived to acquire something (a job, a
| house, anything) easily; people want to have a sense of the
| greatest achievement after a tough grind.
| Dracophoenix wrote:
| > That's because it is a deeply rooted culture/attitude of
| the people in India (or other developing countries):
| intellectual one-upmanship (i.e.: my "brain" is bigger than
| yours).
|
| > Nobody wants to be perceived to acquire something (a job, a
| house, anything) easily; people want to have a sense of the
| greatest achievement after a tough grind.
|
| We have intellectual oneupmanship and hustle & grind culture
| in the United States as well too. And contrary, it's not new,
| as Tocqueville and Weber had made note of it during their
| days.
| jitix wrote:
| This is something that is really concerning to me. If
| everybody is pushed towards a STEM job the market becomes
| saturated affecting salaries (and the associated "prestige"
| in Indian society). And to top it off young children are
| forced to give up their childhood to pursue Byjus and other
| scams that prey on the parents' emotions. I grew up in the
| professional class in India and a lot of thinking is plain
| irrational and just driven by a herd mentality and
| superiority complex. Just toxicity all around tbh.
|
| If someone wants to become a travel photographer and is happy
| with the job and the lifestyle why push them towards a soul
| sucking STEM job where they may not even excel? But somehow
| having a low paying "engineer" job is somewhat better than a
| higher paying "artist" job in their eyes.
|
| And to those reading from outside of India: WITCH company
| jobs are actually considered prestigious in India. Maybe not
| by those who frequent HN (bubbles everywhere) but the vast
| majority of STEM graduates and their communities.
| dxbydt wrote:
| How exactly does an American keep up with this level of
| intellectual one-upmanship ? This was on my linkedin timeline
| today - https://imgur.com/a/dLpo9G7
| yieldcrv wrote:
| May I ask, how fast are the exits if I was to invest in India
| companies?
|
| One thing that turned me off from US venture capital was the
| culture of delaying exits to the stock market, compared to the
| 90s when Microsoft/Netscape/Amazon all IPO'd at like $30
| million market caps and rallied and there was so much upside
| and liquidity. Is there a culture like that in India right now,
| or something similar?
|
| I really like how the Matic/Polygon team achieved "unicorn"
| status while in India and stayed in the scene (I heard they
| moved to UAE since). I don't care that its crypto, I care that
| its tech and moving fast.
|
| Is the action just in Bangalore or is it all over or a few
| other tech hubs?
| pastor_bob wrote:
| > Interviews over there are insanely competitive.
|
| Why is it then that it's common understanding that Indian teams
| are usually bad? Why are they so difficult to deal with and why
| do they produce bad code?
| bluGill wrote:
| There a over a billion people in India, and tech is where the
| young have been going for a while. In any large population
| you willhave good and bad people. In the US the bad move to
| something else, but in India there isn't a something else
| better than working for a place that will hire you cheap to
| produce bad code.
|
| There are a lot of bad engineers in India, but if you can
| weed through them and are willing to pay there are a lot of
| great ones too.
| isbvhodnvemrwvn wrote:
| Body/team leasing is nearly always shit quality, doesn't
| matter if it's from India or not. You can try to pay folk in
| India much less than you can get away with in e.g. Europe
| though.
| 8ytecoder wrote:
| I've had some good experience hiring contractors. It all
| depends on what the goal is. If the goal is high quality
| work there are shops for that and if the goal is for a big
| enterprise to manage costs and de-risk themselves by hiring
| contractors as easy-to-let-go resources, you get exactly
| that. I've dealt with both and the latter is just extremely
| frustrating made infinitely worse by dealing with the
| timezone.
|
| If you've seen job placements in top tier colleges in
| India, it's obvious that none of the body shops ever get
| even a small percentage of graduates wanting to join.
| They're always the last choice even for the less
| academically inclined. It has been the case since at least
| 2005. Until then these companies still had some sway and
| were hiring some good candidates. Now they're coasting on
| their "account winning" architects who then transfer all
| day-to-day stuff to some of the most tough to deal with
| engineers.
| harshalizee wrote:
| Because you get what you pay for.
|
| A significant number of engineers that FAANGM and a lot of
| others brings into the US from their Indian offices are top-
| notch. The salaries they pay in India are in the $60k-130k
| range which is incredibly good there. Same with a lot of good
| startups and core engineering firms. The off-shore
| consultancies you might be familiar with are sweat shops that
| are a dime a dozen with engineers coming and going a
| revolving door. They're optimized to make a quick buck with
| as cheap labor as possible. Just like the US firms that hires
| them.
| eldaisfish wrote:
| be careful generalising india because anything that one can
| claim, the opposite is also true.
|
| A major reason countries like the USA and the UK flourish is
| stability. Stability is not something india has and that is a
| very difficult thing to put a price on. Indian capital markets
| are not transparent though that is less of an issue for
| startups. What should be telling is the number of "Indian"
| startups that are registered in places like Singapore.
|
| I have to rain on your parade but there are many aspects of
| life in India that money cannot solve. I am no fan of the USA
| either but the "gun culture" thing is a strawman that doesn't
| affect daily life in the cities. It is certainly a problem but
| not a problem that many make it out to be. Be careful with the
| healthcare argument too. India's legal and police systems are a
| joke and their healthcare system is cheap but kills millions
| every year due to medical negligence. The US healthcare system
| - for all its flaws - has some of the best outcomes provided
| you have enough money to access it.
| pm90 wrote:
| > I have to rain on your parade but there are many aspects of
| life in India that money cannot solve. I am no fan of the USA
| either but the "gun culture" thing is a strawman that doesn't
| affect daily life in the cities. It is certainly a problem
| but not a problem that many make it out to be. Be careful
| with the healthcare argument too. India's legal and police
| systems are a joke and their healthcare system is cheap but
| kills millions every year due to medical negligence. The US
| healthcare system - for all its flaws - has some of the best
| outcomes provided you have enough money to access it.
|
| I think its interesting that you manage to both minimize the
| impact of firearms in the US and ding the healthcare system
| of India in the same comment.
|
| I have to disagree with both. Guns are a constant threat,
| even in the bluest of cities since there are Red States just
| a few hours of drive away (if you're not already a Blue City
| in a Red State which is extremely common). The threat of
| school shooting is very real. Kids have to go through bs
| "active shooter drills"... this is not the sign of a healthy
| society.
|
| Indian healthcare system certainly has flaws but it manages
| to provide basic healthcare to all citizens. There are lots
| of fantastic doctors trained every year in India.
|
| The legal and police systems, I buy that argument. The
| mainstream media, totally under the control of the
| authoritarian right wing Government. Modi. Those are legit
| criticisms.
| wowokay wrote:
| The threat of a school shooting is real everywhere, I don't
| think the news does justice to showcase how often gun
| violence could have been avoided if the individuals in the
| kids life payed attention.
| drekipus wrote:
| > even in the bluest of cities since there are Red States
| just a few hours of drive away
|
| I remember reading somewhere that the statistics and
| likelihood of innocents being shot were more closely tied
| to "blue" and gun-free cities and states.
|
| Is that not the case?
| brianwawok wrote:
| > I have to disagree with both. Guns are a constant threat,
| even in the bluest of cities since there are Red States
| just a few hours of drive away (if you're not already a
| Blue City in a Red State which is extremely common). The
| threat of school shooting is very real. Kids have to go
| through bs "active shooter drills"... this is not the sign
| of a healthy society.
|
| Sorry you are buying far too much into the news. I suspect
| more people are burned alive in housefires from shoddy
| construction in India, than die in the US to guns.
| pm90 wrote:
| If you're gonna wildly speculate then by all means go
| ahead and make up the most wildest shit imaginable.
| ivalm wrote:
| It's actually surprisingly close in absolute numbers.
| About 20k not-self inflicted gun deaths in the us, and
| 17k deaths by fire in India. Ofc per capita gun
| deaths>>fires.
| bombcar wrote:
| The non-self inflicted is huge though, most gun deaths
| are suicides.
| calculatte wrote:
| > even in the bluest of cities
|
| Are you telling me there is ACTUALLY gun violence in
| Chicago, Detroit, and New York? Well, knock me down with a
| feather!
|
| BTW Someone needs to tell India to get a handle on their
| vehicle death culture. It is a constant threat. Children
| are being absolutely slaughtered in the streets by these
| assault vehicles and the numbers are only rising.
| weatherlite wrote:
| The U.S has stability? Mmm not really.
| wowokay wrote:
| It has been stable since I have been here? In fact all the
| issues that make the most $$$, gun violence, abortion, race
| relations, these are not a problem at the macro level. If
| anything it should be commended that our media and
| leadership has the luxury to complain about these "issues"
| that affect less then 5% of the population.
| weatherlite wrote:
| Stable for who, and how do you define stability? For you
| it feels stable, for some factory worker it's not great.
| But I was getting more at American politics - that feel
| to me like they've reached rock bottom (at least compared
| to the last 2-3 decades). Eventually a crippled political
| system will bring down the economy. It's very possible
| all things considered, and relative to Europe (or China,
| India, whatever), the U.S is doing good. But that's not
| gonna matter much to the average American citizen.
| There's no way Americans won't feel the political and
| economic mayhem that's coming the coming decade or two.
| jeromegv wrote:
| Surely a man would say that abortion is not a problem at
| the macro level and only impact 5% of the population.
|
| Doesn't impact you so of course you don't care, but it
| does impact a lot more than 5%. Same for race relations,
| lots of people having to spend their life being put all
| kind of barriers in front of them.
| splintercell wrote:
| Bro good luck on the upcoming Hindu-Muslim civil war, and
| then subsequent South Indian secession movement.
|
| PS: I know what you're going to tell me, that I don't
| know what I am talking about, but believe me, I do.
| amf12 wrote:
| > their healthcare system is cheap but kills millions every
| year due to medical negligence.
|
| This is a problem money can solve though. If you have the
| money, you can get pretty good medical care in India. "cheap
| but kills millions" isn't really a problem faced by most
| people who have the money to afford it.
|
| > The US healthcare system - for all its flaws - has some of
| the best outcomes provided you have enough money to access
| it.
|
| > Exactly. You need the money in the US to just be able to
| afford healthcare here. There are millions of people who
| don't have insurance (private, medicare), or have expensive
| deductibles to make healthcare out of reach for some.
| frontman1988 wrote:
| Healthcare in India also has one very negative aspect which
| is that more than half of the doctors have qualified due to
| some form of caste based affirmative action. More than 50%
| seats in Indian Medical colleges are reserved for "lower
| castes." It's much easier for a less hard working/bright
| student to get into the college if he belongs to the lower
| caste which reduces the quality of doctors so much that a
| lot of people refuse to get treated by doctors who have
| lower caste surnames. Atleast in America you are guaranteed
| you have mostly competent folks treating you, hard to do
| that in India without doing background checks on the caste
| of the doctor as well.
| Judgmentality wrote:
| How is this any different from saying you would avoid a
| black/Hispanic/minority doctor in the United States? The
| US also has affirmative action for medical schools. If
| anything this problem would be worse in the US, since
| it's harder to determine race by name here.
|
| Your comment reads as thinly veiled casteism/racism.
| wowokay wrote:
| No this is not true, you can't be denied medical treatment
| in the US even if you don't have the ability to pay it.
| lotsofpulp wrote:
| Emergency medical treatment, right?
| bombcar wrote:
| Yes, but if you "look like you can pay" you can get much
| more than that.
| WWLink wrote:
| Right. Anything beyond that nobody is obligated to
| provide. However, if you're in that level of dire straits
| there's almost always a way to get it covered. In most
| states, anyway.
| okasaki wrote:
| The UK isn't thriving - 18% inflation, low salaries (except
| in the money laundering industry), bad and very expensive
| housing, no infrastructure investment, etc.
| cromka wrote:
| > no infrastructure investment
|
| I think one could say anything about UK these days, but
| lack of infrastructure investment? Seriously? UK compared
| to the US, it's like 50 years of difference. And I'd argue
| it's still ahead of most of the old EU, too.
| throw0821374 wrote:
| .
| ralphmelish wrote:
| Get a license for what? I don't really understand the
| relationship between bureaucracy and buying a book... You
| can buy anything you like from anywhere in the world, pay
| your duty online, and have it delivered to your door. I
| did it a couple of times with DHL, Royal Mail, and never
| had any issues.
| [deleted]
| ralphmelish wrote:
| UK doesn't have 18% inflation, that is just a projection
| from Citigroup [0] (if gas prices continue to grow it will
| probably get there, like the rest of Europe). Inflation is
| at 10.1%.
|
| I'm not sure why you say 'low salaries'. Adjusted by cost
| of living, salaries are not that low [1]. Median (removes
| those salaries from 'money laundering industries') salary
| in London is almost PS39.7k [2]. Adjust that by cost of
| living, and it is higher than median income in San
| Francisco or NYC [3].
|
| Infrastructure is miles better than the US. Public
| transport, while expensive, works quite well. The US has
| virtually no public transport whatsoever.
|
| Housing and renting is expensive in every major city, it is
| not a problem exclusive to the UK.
|
| [0] https://www.theguardian.com/business/2022/aug/22/uk-
| inflatio...
|
| [1] https://neilkakkar.com/salary-calculator-by-city.html
|
| [2] https://www.statista.com/statistics/416139/full-time-
| annual-...
|
| [3] https://www.census.gov/quickfacts/fact/table/sanfrancis
| cocit...
|
| Edit: format
| prvit wrote:
| >bad and very expensive housing
|
| Are you kidding? London has the highest quality apartment
| buildings in Europe. Well designed new builds with good
| services are abundant. This stuff hardly even exists in
| countries like France, Germany or Spain.
| anukin wrote:
| Even though it can be agreed that coming back to India is a
| good option for most many Indians, it is also to be noted that
| Indian political games within Indian orgs make it super hard to
| do anything. IMO the only reason to go back to India should be
| to start on your own with your trusted friends. If you think
| you can work in India and contribute positively think again.
| jitix wrote:
| I worked in the US and felt that H1B status was very insecure
| so I tried to start my own company in India in 2020, and also
| explored the job and housing market. I agree 100% with all the
| great financial and work-related competitive points you've
| highlighted but I believe it misses the human and quality of
| life factors.
|
| Things that really affected my mental health in India during
| that time:
|
| 1. Food: Lack of variety in food and food ingredients. I like
| to eat out and cook different cuisines (Japanese to Korean to
| Middle eastern to French to Northern European). Beef is a major
| issue in India and fresh sushi can be a hit or miss even in
| Balgalore. And nothing is available if you're outside of the
| major metro cities.
|
| 2. Prices: If you're in Bangalore you do get a wide variety of
| food including beef dishes but equivalent quality restaurants
| and bars in India have the similar range prices as the US (I
| used to live in the south so it might not be apples to apples).
| Same goes for food ingredients - e.g. Almond milk and cheddar
| cheese costs the same in India as in the US.
|
| 3. Traffic and honking: Even sitting in an Uber for 30 mins can
| be maddening for me. Not to mention people actually yell
| obscenities at each other in traffic jams.
|
| 4. Interruptions: India still has power cuts, water supply and
| flooding issues and the bigger the city (with more
| opportunities) the worse these problems are. The gated
| communities in the metros alleviate many of these issues but
| then you're paying $1000 or more per month in rent or purchase
| for $600-700K. So same as most developed countries.
|
| My conclusion was that if you got somewhat acclimated to the
| having a better QoL in the west (which is different than
| standard of living) you really need to try living there for a
| few months and see if it makes financial sense, because you'll
| be paying western prices on a Indian salary. As always YMMV
| depending on your preferences. I myself ended up moving to
| Canada.
|
| edit: fixed typo
| stainforth wrote:
| Sounds like those points are all ripe opportunities for
| startups of their own no? Just a matter of identifying market
| gaps, I'm sure that's why US companies have hired so many
| Indians, just simple filling of needs and not some other
| mechanic as to way the world works.
| fn-mote wrote:
| Pretty sure you forgot the /s but just in case: a startup
| to fix "power cuts, water supply and flooding issues"? Like
| "startup government". I guess that's what the gated
| communities are?
| int_19h wrote:
| "Snow Crash" described the logical conclusion of such a
| development:
|
| "Have to bulldoze lots of neighborhoods to do it, but
| those seventies and eighties developments exist to be
| bulldozed, right? No sidewalks, no schools, no nothing.
| Don't have their own police force -- no immigration
| control -- undesirables can walk right in without being
| frisked or even harassed. Now a Burbclave, that's the
| place to live. A city-state with its own constitution, a
| border, laws, cops, everything."
|
| "MetaCops Unlimited is the official peacekeeping force of
| White Columns, and also of The Mews at Windsor Heights,
| The Heights at Bear Run, Cinnamon Grove, and The Farms of
| Cloverdelle. They also enforce traffic regulations on all
| highways and byways operated by Fairlanes, Inc. ...
| MetaCops' main competitor, WorldBeat Security, handles
| all roads belonging to Cruiseways, plus has worldwide
| contracts with Dixie Traditionals, Pickett's Plantation,
| Rainbow Heights (check it out--two apartheid Burbclaves
| and one for black suits), Meadowvale on the [insert name
| of river] and Brickyard Station."
| paxys wrote:
| US immigration policies for Indian and Chinese nationals has been
| a blessing for their home grown tech ecosystem. There is no path
| to a green card or citizenship for anyone who immigrated in the
| last ~15 years, and the top 5% talent that used to come over by
| default is now working at or founding companies at home instead.
| This is directly correlated to the number of tech unicorns in
| these countries growing exponentially in the same time period (0
| in India before 2010, 100+ in 2022).
| SloopJon wrote:
| > There is no path to a green card or citizenship for anyone
| who immigrated in the last ~15 years
|
| I'm no expert, but I don't think this is quite right. For an
| applicant with a bachelor's degree, the cutoff date is February
| 2012 for India, and April 2018 for China:
|
| https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/legal/visa-law0/v...
|
| With an advanced degree, it's December 2014 for India and April
| 2019 for China.
|
| Please correct me if my understanding is incorrect.
| xuki wrote:
| I don't know about India, but China's policy to block US big
| techs is the reason why China have the tech companies they have
| today.
| yardie wrote:
| Yes, block big US tech companies and steal as much IP as you
| can get away with.
| tenpies wrote:
| Given the political state of US tech, has this not proven to
| be an incredibly wise decision?
| dixie_land wrote:
| Thanks to "consulting" companies' abuse of H1B.
|
| We should've just have a stack ranking of H1B candidates, based
| on income (and severe penalties for regression in comp, so you
| can't just do it for the visa). This would immediately break
| companies like Infosys that simply spams the lottery system
| with bogus applications.
| 8note wrote:
| It'd be better to have a dedicated tech visa -- h1b handles a
| wide variety of roles that have different salary ranges
| paxys wrote:
| The current system is in place only because all of the US
| companies that benefit from cheap labor provided by the likes
| of Infosys have lobbied for it.
| manuelabeledo wrote:
| I doubt it is cheaper at all.
|
| H-1B applications must pass the prevailing wage test, i.e.
| applicants cannot earn less than the prevailing wage for
| their position at the chosen employment location.
|
| Companies like Tata, Infosys, WiPro, etc. _need_ to
| maintain a part of their workforce in the US for certain
| projects anyway, so they slave away these applicants with
| draconian contracts. It 's not that they pay them
| significantly less than any other, but the fact that they
| can guarantee a 3 to 5 year headcount for their larger US
| based projects, with a larger talent pool to choose from,
| if needed.
| geebee wrote:
| A shortage at a certain wage level probably indicates
| that the prevailing wage is too low. So targeted visa
| programs designed to provide more workers at the
| prevailing wage can suppress wage growth, which, over
| time, really is no different from a reduction in wages.
|
| This is why a lot of people, like me, favor high levels
| of general immigration but don't support targeted visas
| like the H1B. I'm especially opposed to visas that are
| controlled by the employer and restrict the personal and
| economic freedom and mobility of immigrant workers in the
| US. If employers are lobbying for visas that allow
| someone to work in the US only on the condition that they
| remain in a specific role at a specific company at a
| specific salary, that should raise all kinds of red
| flags. You're allowed to be a software developer in the
| valley, but you'll be deported if you try to open a small
| business or enter a different profession or even change
| employers without new "sponsorship"? I find it remarkable
| that so many people don't see the egregious problem here.
| kiratp wrote:
| I only see one role here that is even ballpark for a SWE
| in SF.
|
| https://h1bdata.info/index.php?em=&job=software+developer
| &ci...
|
| The prevailing wage test fails to account for stock and
| bonuses and is basically a joke.
| mattnewton wrote:
| How could it not be cheaper- H1B applicants have to
| perform their jobs virtually under threat of deportation.
| How are they negotiating for regular raises or stock
| refreshers in that situation? How often are they changing
| jobs due to poor working conditions or personal growth if
| their sponsorship could be jeopardized?
| diebeforei485 wrote:
| The previous administration wanted to do this, but it was way
| too late and they ran out of time to implement it properly -
| https://insights.dice.com/2021/07/07/trump-h-1b-rule-
| could-h...
|
| Soviet-style labor lotteries are not a good system. Those
| "consulting" companies know how to abuse that system.
| spangry wrote:
| Why doesn't the government auction H1B visas? If H1B numbers
| are capped then they are a scarce resource that should be
| price-rationed so they are allocated to their most productive
| use (i.e. to companies that are willing to pay the most). It
| would also mean more of the gain from bringing over H1B
| workers would accrue to the public instead of private
| companies, which would increase public support for
| immigration.
| amf12 wrote:
| > Thanks to "consulting" companies' abuse of H1B.
|
| They found the "loopholes". Given that the system is being
| abused, the government hasn't made much effort in fixing it.
| time_to_smile wrote:
| > There is no path to a green card or citizenship for anyone
| who immigrated
|
| One thing I find really strange as an American, is that while
| our immigration system could be improved, in both China and
| India there is _absolutely_ no way for a US Citizen to get
| permanent residency.
|
| Not "it's really hard" or "takes a long time", but short of
| maybe being a billionaire or world famous athlete, a non-
| Chinese/Indian simply cannot permanently immigrate to these
| countries. It doesn't matter if you marry someone who is a
| Chinese/Indian citizen, doesn't matter if you have kids with
| them, etc there is zero possibly you will be able to immigrate
| to these countries.
| triceratops wrote:
| That doesn't seem to be true for India, at least.[1]
|
| People legally resident for 12 years can apply to naturalize.
| And spouses can just register to get citizenship.
|
| 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_nationality_law#Volun
| ta...
| thatfrenchguy wrote:
| There is a path though, you can marry someone who is from any
| other country but India (even if they are not going for a
| EB-2/EB-3, have a green card, or are a US citizen). You can
| cross charge your employment green card to your spouse, some of
| my Indian colleagues have done this, it's super rare because of
| cultural expectations though.
| screye wrote:
| Yeah sure, let's go ahead and facilitate the 2nd biggest
| decision of your life (country you work in) by compromising
| on the biggest decision (marriage) of your life.
|
| While dating across cultural groups to find the one, is
| rewarding in its own right , being that materialistic with
| your choice in partner is probably going to make for shaky
| foundations of a relationship.
| thatfrenchguy wrote:
| > by compromising on the biggest decision (marriage) of
| your life.
|
| I don't see how that's a compromise though? The cultural
| expectations are just different for folks from India: no
| parent from France is expecting their kid who decided to
| move to another country to be with a French person, and 90%
| of immigrants from India end up marrying another immigrant
| from India, even if they more to the US in their early
| twenties.
| margalabargala wrote:
| Frankly, at the end of the day, this is better for Humanity as
| a whole.
|
| People are coming to the US, learning about technologies, and
| bringing those back to other countries with plenty of people
| willing to use them. In the longer term, this will result in
| more, better technology, all over the world.
|
| There will be more net good than if all such technology were
| concentrated in the US, though the US will have less domestic
| benefit than it would have otherwise.
| aprdm wrote:
| And for Canada
| Traubenfuchs wrote:
| Over 99.99% of rejected H1B applicants do not build unicorns back
| home.
|
| What is the point here? Let them all in in case one of them makes
| a unicorn?
|
| This is rock people thinking on the level of "every aborted baby
| could have become the next Mozart".
| spoonjim wrote:
| Maybe shut down the southern border and instead admit more
| H1Bs? And use some judgment instead of a lottery. Someone who's
| been a manager at Microsoft is obviously a better bet than a
| TCS bodyshopper.
| immigrantheart wrote:
| This is amazing! I think a lot of immigrants should really use
| their talents back home, building their own country. It will be
| good for everyone, for the world as well.
| game_the0ry wrote:
| Arguably, Asian industry (India specifically), has much more room
| to grow - the west is is where things _happened_ , Asia is where
| things are _happening_.
|
| But East and South Asians immigration will continue. Being
| "westernized" (usually western education and green card) is
| valuable as a source of social prestige - having a US masters
| degree makes you attractive in the marriage market and in social
| circles.[1]
|
| [1] I am South Asian.
| yosito wrote:
| As an American from an immigrant family, I think the US is really
| losing here. We should be giving visas out liberally to any
| skilled professional who wants one. Immigration is the only thing
| that ever truly made the US stand out.
|
| On the other hand, as a global citizen with multiple passports
| who hasn't lived in the US for some time, maybe this is a good
| thing for the rest of the world. Spreading innovation out a bit
| and allowing other countries to thrive. Growing up in an
| immigrant family, I always had a sense of diversity being
| America's strength. But the last decade or so the US seems to
| have lost sight of the value of diversity. Not completely, but in
| many ways, partially thanks to US hegemony and the export of the
| English language, Europe is currently the cultural melting pot I
| idealized the US as growing up.
|
| I think the world would truly be a more peaceful and thriving
| place if every country were more culturally integrated.
|
| Anyway, I'm rambling now... </soapbox>
| 2OEH8eoCRo0 wrote:
| What is stopping people from becoming citizens?
| Taniwha wrote:
| These days an H1B is the first step towards getting a green
| card, which in turn is the step towards citizenship
| User23 wrote:
| That's not actually true. H-1B is a non-immigrant visa. The
| confusion is somewhat understandable though. The reason why
| is that the H-1B program allows a migrant who does not
| currently qualify for an immigrant visa to work in the USA
| while they try to get one rather than having to wait at
| home.
|
| It's kind of like hanging out in a fancy restaurant's bar
| in hopes that they'll be able to get you a table.
| dudul wrote:
| It is possible to petition for a green card without an h1b.
| Actually I wonder why in this story, Microsoft didn't
| sponsor an employment based GC.
| raitom wrote:
| Because sponsoring an employment based GC takes
| considerably more time than filling for an H1B. We're
| talking at best less than a year for an H1B (filling in
| April and you receive it in October of the same year) vs
| 18 months minimum for an European (10+ years for an
| Indian).
|
| I actually got my H1B at my 2nd try. I did not get pick
| at my 1st try and had to wait until next year but it went
| quite smoothly. However for my GC, it took 4 years
| between the initial conversation with my employer and
| getting it in my hands. The actual process itself, from
| the moment the lawyers received all the documents, took 2
| years.
| yosito wrote:
| Via which path?
| deepdriver wrote:
| As an American from a non-immigrant family, I think stamping
| visas is easier than fixing a broken education system, so
| that's what corporate leaders would rather do. We have over 330
| million Americans in this country, many seeking good jobs and
| salaries like those found in tech, yet we struggle to produce
| enough qualified STEM grads and resort to importing other
| countries' elites. The programming and computer science
| education in most high schools is near zero. It's a national
| embarrassment. And frankly, the more US companies are helmed by
| new arrivals with strong ties to the mother country, the less
| they feel a kinship to the majority of Americans and the less
| likely they are to invest in those Americans' futures. I've
| seen this preference play out firsthand inside Google and other
| places.
| [deleted]
| hunterb123 wrote:
| The US allows more immigrants than any other country. What
| exactly is the criticism?
| hocuspocus wrote:
| Mostly through family reunion which is completely irrelevant
| to the issue discussed here.
|
| The US has the most nonsensical immigration laws for skilled
| workers of the developed world. Even Japan or Korea are
| pretty straightforward in comparison.
| curious_cat_163 wrote:
| I don't think absolute numbers tell the story. Also, it is
| not a complaint, really.
|
| I think the citizens in the US have a right to decide as a
| polity how they want to structure their immigration policies.
| However, in order to make a good decision, it is important to
| start with the full context. Here are some facts:
|
| US has 46.6 million in foreign born population and a total
| population of 333 million. [1][2] That makes about 13.9% of
| the total population to be foreign born.
|
| Australia has 29.1% of its population that is foreign born.
| [3]
|
| A little over 20% of the population of Canada is foreign born
| and it is projected to grow. [4]
|
| [1] https://cis.org/Camarota/ForeignBorn-Population-Hits-
| Record-...
|
| [2] https://www.census.gov/popclock/
|
| [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign-
| born_population_of_Aus...
|
| [4]
| https://www.statcan.gc.ca/en/dai/btd/othervisuals/other006
| manuelabeledo wrote:
| Discounting non immigrant visas, I'm not sure that this is
| true.
| lotsofpulp wrote:
| The criticism is tying visa status to employer. No reason to
| do that unless you want to suppress wages for US residents.
| ROTMetro wrote:
| That is why there are other visa types. You are talking
| about a type of visa specifically intended as a mechanism
| to fill a specific seat at a specific company. For other
| forms of immigration, there are other types of visas.
| isatty wrote:
| Like what? I went over the USCIS page and Wikipedia and
| there does not seem to be very many options for skilled
| workers besides H and L, both of which are tied to
| employers.
| fooker wrote:
| O1 visas are for skilled workers without getting tied to
| a company. But you have to be really skilled!
| kareemsabri wrote:
| You don't have to be all that skilled (depending on the
| field). You do need the money to self-petition though.
| Many pretty average people use the O-1.
| nine_zeros wrote:
| > The US allows more immigrants than any other country. What
| exactly is the criticism?
|
| The system is unbelievably cruel. People die (or see their
| loved ones die) before they get greencards.
|
| It is not a numbers game. If you can attract the best, you
| need to let them thrive instead of enslaving them.
| [deleted]
| outside1234 wrote:
| Are you referring to the 7% cap on the number of people
| that can get a green card from any one country in a
| calendar year?
| nine_zeros wrote:
| > Are you referring to the 7% cap on the number of people
| that can get a green card from any one country in a
| calendar year?
|
| No. I am talking about the constant asking for paperwork,
| processing times that vary from 2 months to over 2 years
| and preventing people from traveling to their home
| countries, lest they get locked out.
|
| This is how criminals are treated.
| hunterb123 wrote:
| What is the processing time for European countries?
|
| What would your ideal processing time be that wouldn't be
| "criminal"?
| nine_zeros wrote:
| > What is the processing time for European countries?
|
| EU is not one country. Some countries have better
| timelines than others.
|
| > What would your ideal processing time be that wouldn't
| be "criminal"?
|
| My ideal would be asap. Make the decision quick. If you
| want to deny most applications, deny it. But do it quick.
| kylehotchkiss wrote:
| Slow denials is a feature not a bug of immigration
| systems. Fast denials with systems that allow retries
| just quickly get backlogs of people applying again after
| finding a quick fix to the rejection reason, which makes
| it harder to give proper time to new applicants who may
| be more eligible.
| hunterb123 wrote:
| My point was to compare European countries as they were
| suggested by the GP to be better.
|
| Go ahead and choose one or so and come back with numbers
| to compare. You'll find the US is very good in
| comparison.
| manuelabeledo wrote:
| Germany offers a shorter and significantly cheaper path
| to citizenship, for instance.
| hocuspocus wrote:
| Plus incredibly easier paths to immigration on a skilled
| work permit and access to permanent residence. Like most
| EU countries.
| [deleted]
| hunterb123 wrote:
| > The system is unbelievably cruel. People die (or see
| their loved ones die) before they get greencards.
|
| People die before many things, that's not really relevant
| and it's just an emotional statement. Compare the length
| and rate to other countries for an actual assessment.
|
| A lot countries I've looked into take 5-10 years for
| citizenship, the US is 14.5 months on average.
|
| I'm talking about the amount of immigrants taken in vs
| other countries. Yes the US is large and can take in a lot
| of immigrants, and we do, by far.
| darth_avocado wrote:
| >14.5 months on average
|
| The system is different for everyone. It depends on visa
| types, country of origin and a bunch of other factors.
|
| Also, the 14.5 months on average is just the time it
| takes for USCIS to process the N400 application for
| naturalization. The actual time it takes for the
| naturalization is 18-24 months. And the biggest part that
| comes before you apply for naturalization for most
| immigrants is to obtain a Greencard, which takes the
| longest time, in some cases more than a few decades.
| bialpio wrote:
| I'm not sure where you got the 14.5 months from. This is
| roughly how much time it took for my citizenship
| application to get processed, but it does not include the
| 5 year period of being a permanent resident (and applying
| for it also took ~1.5 years). Total time from setting my
| foot in the US on H-1B to getting citizenship was roughly
| 8.5 years.
| lemiant wrote:
| This shows a shocking level of ignorance about the US
| immigration system.
|
| Just straight off the bat you need to be a resident for 5
| years before you can even apply for citizenship (
| https://www.uscis.gov/forms/explore-my-options/become-a-
| us-c... ).
|
| The full process is the better part of a decade in the
| best case (e.g. expensive lawyers, STEM degree,
| immigrating from an easy country like Canada). If you're
| from a country like China or India where lots of other
| people are also applying for those slots - or if anything
| else is less than optimal - you're looking at between a
| decade+ and never.
| shard wrote:
| You can shorten the time you need to be a resident to 3
| years by marrying a US citizen:
| https://www.uscis.gov/citizenship/learn-about-
| citizenship/ci...
| kylehotchkiss wrote:
| Yes, US citizens can sponsor foreign nationals both
| within and outside the USA for green cards through
| marriage. The process itself (current status or no
| status) to green card easily takes 2 years. Once that
| person arrives, they can get citizenship (not residency)
| within 3 years.
|
| The sentence structure though seems to imply marrying
| solely for status, which is fraud, and reflects very
| poorly on both applicant and petitioner. This kind of
| thing definitely happens which is why it takes 2 years
| for the honest applicants to get though, as the
| immigration system doesn't do a sufficient job filtering
| out fraud at the beginning stages of the petition and
| leaves too much of that work at the end of the petition
| stage (interview) which is where the biggest bottleneck
| is.
|
| source: personal experience as petitioner
| shard wrote:
| No implication to promote the commitment of fraud, simply
| stating a fact to correct the previous comment.
| UncleMeat wrote:
| And for an Indian citizen, you might wait for 50 years
| for a green card.
| manuelabeledo wrote:
| > A lot countries I've looked into take 5-10 years for
| citizenship, the US is 14.5 months on average.
|
| Year 6 here in the US, need to wait another 5 for the
| chance of becoming a citizen.
|
| What's that path you are talking about?
| nine_zeros wrote:
| > Most countries I've looked into take up to 10 years.
|
| The set of countries you want to compare with are the
| countries that claim they want to welcome immigrants. You
| don't want to compare with countries that you like but
| are hostile.
|
| America claims to be immigrant friendly but compared to
| other immigrant friendly nations, the process is brutal
| and eats away entire lives.
|
| > A lot countries I've looked into take 5-10 years for
| citizenship, the US is 14.5 months on average.
|
| This is misinformation as citizenship petition N-400 is
| merely the last step. This does not count the time for
| green card before this. Getting a green card could take
| 3-10 years. Then, they'd need to remain a permanent
| resident for 5 years before they can even apply for
| citizenship.
| hunterb123 wrote:
| No 14.5 months is the average for naturalization.
|
| https://www.boundless.com/immigration-resources/how-long-
| doe...
|
| Total time is 18.5-24 months to wrap up everything, but
| the 14.5 months you're able to be in the US which is what
| matters.
|
| How does that compare to other countries? What's your
| ideal country that has the best immigration times?
|
| - edit -
|
| Green card from nil is also just a year or so on average,
| in which case you are living in the US and able to work.
|
| These numbers are very comparable and much better than
| most countries. Please provide your ideal country so we
| can compare numbers.
| ra7 wrote:
| Green card to naturalization is not the same as going
| from visa to green card.
| qaq wrote:
| You have to reside for 5 years on GC first. It can take
| years for GC to get processed so overall at present it
| can be close to 10 years.
| cardine wrote:
| The parent tweet is someone from India.
|
| Current green card wait times are approximately 10
| years[1] right now. Given the length of the green card
| wait time you usually need some other visa (such as H1B)
| that will allow you to still live in the USA before you
| can actually apply for green card.
|
| Currently the H1B lottery approves less than half of the
| people who apply.
|
| So if you are trying to immigrate from India you are
| looking at: H1B (1-4 years depending lottery luck) Green
| Card (10+ years) Time to become US citizen (1-2 years
| from what you posted)
|
| So as a highly skilled advanced degree holder from India
| (the case of this Tweet) the overall time is 12-16 years
| and that is still no guarantee due to H1B being a
| lottery.
|
| [1] https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-
| rankings/green-car... (See EB-2 and EB-3)
| thisoneworks wrote:
| Better source:
|
| 54 years for eb2/eb3. And that was 2019 backlog. Covid
| should've added half a decade more
|
| https://www.cato.org/publications/policy-
| analysis/immigratio...
| z2 wrote:
| Here's a better, more holistic overview, in case you want
| to see what starting "from nil" actually entails (hint:
| you don't just step off a plane and tell Uncle Sam that
| you want to be a citizen):
|
| https://immigrationroad.com/green-card/immigration-
| flowchart...
|
| > The time it takes to become a permanent resident varies
| dramatically, affected by many factors such as USCIS
| processing, visa availability, labor
| certification/background check delays, the applicant's
| qualifications, nationality, residence, profession, luck,
| and so on. Most people are probably looking at 5 - 15
| years. Some also spent several years in a nonimmigrant
| status prior to starting the immigration process. After
| green card, add roughly 5 - 7 years towards citizenship
|
| In addition to the time, as others said there's a high
| probability the path will fail for most. The process
| starts with winning a visa that allows you to immigrate
| (tourist/business/student visas don't count). I say "win"
| because you need to find a company willing to pay and
| apply for that on your behalf, go through a lottery based
| on degree to see if you even get the opportunity to
| apply, and then hope the application isn't rejected on
| the grounds of the job being something a U.S. citizen can
| do. if you studied in the U.S., you get 1-2 more years to
| work under your student visa on what's called "Optional
| Practical Training" to convince your employer you're
| worth the hassle of sponsoring an immigration visa. Once
| you have that visa (e.g., an H-1B visa), you have 3 years
| to try rise to a senior position and convince your
| employer that you are valuable enough to splurge on a
| green card application. If that fails, you can apply for
| a 3 year extension and try again. If that also fails, you
| must leave the country for at least a year, and start
| over. If you succeed, you wait some number of years
| depending on your birth country and quotas imposed on
| each before you get the chance to start applying for a
| green card and get this process rolling. Hence 10-22
| years, for those lucky few who didn't get rejected at any
| of the aforementioned points.
| aidenn0 wrote:
| What always boggled my mind is we allow students to come study
| in the University system, but then when they graduate send them
| away. I suspect a platform of "We will train foreigners to
| enrich their homelands" wouldn't get much popular support, but
| it's the de-facto rule we live under.
| 2OEH8eoCRo0 wrote:
| What do you mean we send them away? Should we hold them
| against their will? If they want to stay there are ways to
| stay.
| dataexporter wrote:
| I am not sure if you are responding with actual information
| or just anecdata. There are hundreds of thousands of
| students who actually want to work in the US but are unable
| to (and are sent back) because of H1B Visa lotteries and
| archaic green card processes.
| 2OEH8eoCRo0 wrote:
| I'm not saying the US immigration system is perfect but
| there were apparently 855,000 new naturalized citizens in
| 2021. Somebody is figuring it out.
|
| Also- the US doesn't owe everybody a citizenship.
| thisoneworks wrote:
| Majority of them are family based as opposed to
| employment based, so your point is invalid
| 2OEH8eoCRo0 wrote:
| How much of a majority?
| modriano wrote:
| As a citizen of the US, I like having a vibrant tech economy
| here in the US and I love working with brilliant people, so I
| would like it if everyone educated in our world class
| universities could stay here if they wanted. Also as a
| citizen of the US who likes stability in the US, I like that
| the children of elites all over the world come to the US for
| university and many return to their native countries with a
| fondness for the US from their time in our universities.
|
| As a citizen of the world, I think there's tremendous value
| in distributing knowledge and our best ideals all over the
| world.
| innagadadavida wrote:
| Even more confusing is why we then have 100k immigrants that
| are randomly selected with unknown skills from all over the
| world to come here and take up things like driving taxis. All
| the while we have labor shortages for basic things like
| nannies and baby sitters.
| bruceb wrote:
| How many families are going to leave their child with a
| uber driver?
| solveit wrote:
| The mental model many people seem to have is "foreigners will
| pay us exorbitant amounts of tuition for a prestigious
| diploma, and education isn't actually valuable so we might as
| well send them back home".
|
| And it's only mildly surprising people think this way. The
| median American does seem to go through an educational system
| that takes all their money and gives them a diploma without
| actually providing valuable expertise in anything. But the
| experience is exactly the opposite for the best immigrants,
| who only sometimes pay much tuition (PhDs in STEM in
| particular very rarely pay with anything other than their
| labor as teaching/research assistants), and gain enormously
| valuable expertise. It's completely asinine, but perhaps not
| so surprising.
| sokoloff wrote:
| The median American 25 or older has less than an associates
| (2-year) degree.
|
| https://www.census.gov/newsroom/press-
| releases/2022/educatio...
| yuppiepuppie wrote:
| What's funny is that my (foreign) wife got her masters at a
| state school in the US with a US scholarship and was sent
| back after she graduated.
| ipaddr wrote:
| Many US scholarship comes from private money. So having a
| scholarship doesn't automatically grant citizenship or
| people would abuse the system and limits would need to be
| placed on students studying.
| cinntaile wrote:
| I don't think there is any country in the world that
| gives citizenship based on a grant. These people just
| want a chance at finding a relevant job in the US using
| their newly earned skills.
| bcrosby95 wrote:
| This is a weird take considering most states offer tuition
| breaks for people that live in that state. If this is
| really how people felt about these schools you would think
| they would be boycotting their mere existence considering
| they cost a lot of state tax dollars to fund.
| jldugger wrote:
| I mean, its a complicated and slow process. State funding
| of colleges has been on decline for ages -- every time a
| recession hits the university system gets another budget
| cut but its rare to see the cuts restored when the
| economy recovers.
|
| Meanwhile the median voter is probably more excited about
| college sports than college degrees.
| beckingz wrote:
| University system is an export. We can't export it if they
| stay.
| thechao wrote:
| This is _precisely_ what the Fulbright scholarship program is
| for:
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fulbright_Program
| newsclues wrote:
| If developed nations with top tier education systems attract
| the best talent from the developing world and retain them
| all, who is going to develop and grow the economy, workforce
| and consumer markets of the developing world?
| thehappypm wrote:
| It's tough because many of our societal problems are only
| exacerbated by population growth, especially in the areas where
| these types of workers tend to congregate. Highly skilled
| workers don't go to the Midwest or the deep south. They go and
| drive up rental prices in New York and San Francisco, where the
| jobs are. Well the first order effects of having a more skilled
| in competitive work for us are good, the second order effects
| can be very very negative and we got to be careful about that
| jedberg wrote:
| I work with a bunch of highly skilled immigrants. They live
| in Texas, Kentucky, Colorado, and a bunch of other places.
| Now that remote work is prevalent, people are moving to all
| sorts of places.
| jimmaswell wrote:
| > Highly skilled workers don't go to the Midwest or the deep
| south.
|
| This is certainly changing. I myself am moving to a rural
| area to work remotely and farm.
| thehappypm wrote:
| The statistics don't really bear that it's happening at
| scale, but it's great for you to make that change.
| bluGill wrote:
| There are enough immigrants in Des Moines to have a Hindi
| temple. Immigrants go everywhere, nnot just your little
| corner
| sngz wrote:
| as another American from an immigrant family. I think getting
| an H1-B should be easier, not tied to a company, and require
| companies to pay them more than a citizen. This prevents a lot
| of the abuse I see right now to people on H1-B's, staying with
| jobs that they hate, and prevents wage suppression in the
| industry for others.
| digianarchist wrote:
| Why would a H1-B stay in a job they hate? The visa is
| actually portable unlike TN, E3 or L1.
| js2 wrote:
| > As an American from an immigrant family, I think the US is
| really losing here. We should be giving visas out liberally to
| any skilled professional who wants one.
|
| As an American whose great-grandparents immigrated here from
| Eastern Europe, I agree the US is really losing here. We should
| be giving visas out liberally to anyone who wants one. No need
| to restrict it to skilled professionals.
| jimmaswell wrote:
| Alternate viewpoint, we have more than enough students
| graduating in Computer Science and other STEM fields, many of
| whom have a hard time finding a job because most companies
| don't want to invest in training anyone up anymore, and they're
| enabled by the H1B program. If we incentivized/forced companies
| to build people up from basic college graduate again, it would
| be even better than finding skilled immigrants.
| nxmnxm99 wrote:
| The average H1B is more talented than the average American
| STEM graduate. That's why they're having trouble getting
| jobs.
| KerrAvon wrote:
| You're basing that assertion on what data? If that's really
| the case, our schools need to do a better job of
| prioritizing entrants into STEM classes -- talk to a
| prospective CS student at Stanford or Berkeley and ask them
| how easy it is to get into the program, for example.
| mywittyname wrote:
| H1B employees cost a lot more to employ than fresh grads. On
| top of having to pay above average wage, companies have to
| employ lawyers to handle a lot of paperwork.
|
| > most companies don't want to invest in training anyone up
| anymore
|
| The past four companies I've worked for had training programs
| for new employees and internship programs to funnel college
| students into jobs after graduation. Maybe bad experience on
| your part?
| atwood22 wrote:
| Do H1Bs really earn above average wage? Haven't seen that.
| Overall, H1Bs increase the labor supply, which decreases
| the price of labor.
| soniman wrote:
| So brain drain is bad (when it happens to Russia) but good (when
| the US does it to India)? India is a desperately poor country
| that needs Indian entrepreneurs. It's ridiculous to frame this as
| a loss to the US. It is a loss to the world if the desperately
| poor in India are never lifted out of poverty by their own best
| and brightest. The US should encourage them to stay in India.
| xiaodai wrote:
| it's a bit sad to lose talent like this. Wonder how we can
| attract talents like this to Australia? I guess the market isn't
| big enough but selling software is easily an international
| business so in Aus we have some powerhouse software companiest
| too like Atlassian and Canva
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