[HN Gopher] Ask HN: Anyone working 4 day week here, as an employee?
___________________________________________________________________
Ask HN: Anyone working 4 day week here, as an employee?
This is a question for salaried employees (or those who charge by
the hour, but are expected to work full 40 hours for an employer).
Where/How did you find your job? If you started at 40 hours per
week, how did you negotiate it to 32?
Author : akudha
Score : 75 points
Date : 2022-08-21 20:54 UTC (2 hours ago)
| [deleted]
| jokethrowaway wrote:
| Fairly common among contractors.
|
| You just negotiate how many days you want to work on that client.
|
| Plenty of coworkers from Italy do it to avoid paying higher
| taxes: they increase their hourly rate until they hit the 65k pa
| limit and then they just start dropping days. If they were to
| earn even 66k, they would start paying way more taxes and they
| would need to earn ~30k more to get the same salary after taxes.
| i_like_robots wrote:
| I work four days in my current role and will continue doing so in
| my next one. I don't have much choice in the matter so I always
| raise it at the earliest opportunity and have even added it to my
| CV to make sure I don't waste anybody's time.
|
| I've found the majority of the companies I've spoken to over the
| last few years (in the UK) have been open to me working 4 days a
| week but I've also had the frustrating experiencing of being told
| this isn't an option after interviewing successfully.
|
| At the moment people with my experience are in huge demand so
| having this leverage must be a big help and I'm happy to take
| advantage of it while it lasts.
| StevenWaterman wrote:
| Just accepted a 32hr week job. Was advertised as, and applied for
| it, as 40hrs. After having an offer from them, I got another
| offer elsewhere at a much higher salary.
|
| I knew the first was a better cultural fit, so went back and
| asked them to work with me. No room to negotiate on salary, so
| they offered 32hr weeks and I jumped at it.
| runnerup wrote:
| Did it come with a pro-rated lower pay or same pay as the
| initially negotiated 40hr week?
| StevenWaterman wrote:
| Pay and holidays stayed the same as the original offer, not
| pro-rata. It was a case of "not enough money in the budget"
| rather than "you're not worth more"
| Marazan wrote:
| Well done.
| nameless912 wrote:
| My company has pretty flexible PTO (though most of the work is
| client driven so our deadlines are pretty firm). My partner and I
| are expecting a baby in January, and my partner has one day off
| of work per week (they work 10's at a hospital). I basically just
| _told_ my boss that I'm dropping to 32 hours to accommodate for
| my family's needs, and he more or less accepted it. It helps that
| I'm a staff engineer and I've always gotten my work in on time,
| and after a couple weeks of adjustment I'm right back up to my
| normal productivity.
|
| So, I guess what I have to say is: - have a good reason (and your
| own mental health/WLB is a good enough reason, but you need to
| have one for people to take you seriously) - show you're capable
| of getting the work done - accept that not everyone will be
| accommodating, and figure out how valuable this accommodation is
| for you.
| aeze wrote:
| We made the change company-wide a few months ago. No reduction in
| pay, employees are able to choose their 32-hour schedule based on
| their needs. Some people take off Mondays, some Fridays, some
| work 5 days but shorter hours. We're just expected to coordinate
| with our coworkers which has worked out fine so far.
|
| As someone who has historically worked long hours, I wasn't
| expecting to enjoy the change so much. It will be very hard to
| move back if/when I move companies in the future.
| oddeyed wrote:
| I have negotiated a four day week twice. I would recommend a four
| day week to anyone who can afford it. Don't forget that because
| of tax bands the effective pay cut is less than 20%.
|
| The first time I just straight up asked my boss in a conversation
| and with a request in writing. I said I was unhappy in my life in
| general and wanted more time to spend on other things than work.
| There is legislation in the UK that means that employers must
| consider these requests and reply with an answer and explanation
| in a fixed time frame. They accepted and I worked it for about 4
| months before other circumstances meant I had to relocate and
| leave that company.
|
| The job I moved to was a start-up. After a string of executive
| resignations and engineering team redundancies I was left as the
| most experienced team member. I had another job offer in hand
| that I didn't really want but took it to the only remaining
| senior lead and asked for 4 days (at full pay this time) or I'd
| leave. They accepted in an informal way rather than modify my
| contract in this case and just called it "taking a day off when
| you need it". I would not recommend accepting this in general as
| it puts you in a vulnerable position for being punished for doing
| what you thought was the agreed deal. In any case, working 4 days
| at this job was a disaster because the company was such a mess
| and I had so little support that I spent my day off and my
| weekends obsessing about work unhealthily. I ultimately went back
| to 5 days in a more senior role to try to help right the ship but
| couldn't take the stress then either so ended up leaving.
|
| I'm now at 5 days again. If I stick my new job out I plan to
| request 4 days after my probation period ends.
|
| The decision for an employer comes down to retention - do they
| want to keep you enough to accept 4 days instead of the risk of
| you leaving? So if you have a manager who can understand your
| value and represent that to internal decision makers then that's
| the main key.
| kqr wrote:
| "For the foreseeable future, I'm going to take Fridays to be with
| my family. Can we make that work?"
|
| "Good for you! Coordinate with your team and make sure you fill
| HR in on your absences."
|
| This was after working the full 40 weeks for four years* with an
| employer that knows how important work--life balance is.
|
| ----
|
| * Well, I did take one afternoon/week off for medical reasons for
| half a year. And arranged 60 % work to have time for university
| in parallel another year. And was away on parental leave for most
| of yet another year. I guess a good employer does not make it
| hard to stay with them.
| taurusnoises wrote:
| In NYC "summer Fridays" were a thing where some 9-5 jobs gave
| Fridays off for a couple months. Back in 2005-2010 I worked at a
| magazine that did that until my boss was like, wait, if we can
| put out the magazine in four days for a few months, we can do it
| in four all year. No one objected, and thus began the best job I
| ever had. Managing editor for a 4-day-a-week magazine.
| outsider7 wrote:
| Currently working 35 hours a week, in a unionized job with banked
| time starting at 36h (1:1), (2:1 at 40+ hrs), 4 weeks vacation &
| unlimited sick days up to a point(6 per year I hear...), meaning
| I can take a day off whenever I'm too tired/sick. Due to the
| negotiated conditions, it's also really not advantageous for the
| employer to force us to be on call or have us do any amount of
| OT. Thus the workload is really stable. In a way I now have too
| much free time.
|
| It's been a bliss overall on my work/life balance. I've never
| been that healthy and my stress level has never been so low in my
| life. I know I'll live longer and once I am more stable
| financially, I'll be able to have time to contribute to my
| community.
|
| The salaries are also quite good. I highly encourage people to
| unionize, it is the only way to get proper leverage in this
| highly inequitable period we live in.
|
| The union we have is small and consists exclusively of people
| with at minimum university degrees. Most of them have some form
| of life accomplishments due to the hiring process also. Due to
| the conditions negotiated, the well provisioned pension fund and
| general job advantages, most people coming in are experienced (5+
| years) except for some amount of diversity/equity hires (which
| the company kinda needed since everyone stays there until
| retirement...).
|
| Thus, the union is well organized to have leverage, well
| structured and reasonable with whom they should defend when there
| is abuse on the side of the employer. People are mostly diligent
| in their work obligations.
|
| There is some rare exceptions, some employees with too much
| mastery of transferring issues to others. Frankly, I've seen the
| same or worst in Big Corpo, mostly in middle management, the only
| difference here is some employees do it instead of the
| managers...
| carabiner wrote:
| Wild guess, but is this in a smaller, suburban town, rather
| than a big city?
| zackify wrote:
| I told the employer that I currently work 4 days so I won't join
| without keeping that schedule.
|
| Before that, I just asked for 4 days and made it clear I provide
| the value of those who work 5 days a week. No pay cut required.
| Marazan wrote:
| Was working fulltime.
|
| Asked my manager to go down to 4 days. They said yes.
|
| Now down to a 3 day week (spread over 5 days) as it fits my
| situation better.
| TomVDB wrote:
| A friend on mine quit his FAANG job, took a one year sabbatical,
| and went back on the job market. He found a remote-only job at a
| boutique bank in NYC, negotiated his compensation, and then told
| them he'd only accept the offer if it was 4 days instead of 5 at
| the same salary. They accepted without any pushback. He totally
| loves his 3-day weekends.
| thrawn0r wrote:
| I work 4 days at Microsoft in Germany (PM at Github) In Germany
| employees have the right to demand part time. for new hires it's
| usually 40h and then reduce after the probation period. might
| reduce your career growth but I still got promoted and am happy
| with Fridays off
| RyJones wrote:
| We switched to four day weeks last year. In practice, it means I
| now work six days a week instead of seven.
| ErrantX wrote:
| I don't, however I am generally able to flex my days a lot due to
| working mostly from home and also being able to complete my work
| fairly quickly.
|
| A lot of people at my employer do work different schedules
| though. Either 4 day weeks or compressed hours (9 longer days &
| one day off).
|
| I think it's a cultural thing where the organisation recognises
| work is work and you also deserve a life on your terms.
|
| All of us seem pretty happy with our setups...
| mfashby wrote:
| yes :)
|
| > Where/How did you find your job?
|
| Referral from an old colleague.
|
| > If you started at 40 hours per week, how did you negotiate it
| to 32?
|
| Asked. Took 80% full time equivalent pay. Had just received a pay
| rise, so there wasn't much actual reduction.
| heikkilevanto wrote:
| I used to work 4 days a week for some years. Used to hate
| Mondays, then I loved Mondays, and hated Tuesdays instead. Worked
| fine until the company changed direction and the work got too
| stressful, so I ended up quitting and retiring. It was an easy
| negotiation, we already had one guy taking every Wednesday off.
| thejackgoode wrote:
| I negotiated this year down to 36 hours, being 4 days of 9 hours
| and Wednesdays off. It's amazing.
|
| How to do it? I think it's one of those things you can target on
| purpose.
|
| Regarding my case, I have a good relationship with my superiors,
| I fulfill the goals which are put in front of me, team is happy
| etc, etc.
| 0x20cowboy wrote:
| The company just started doing it after the pandemic hit. They
| mostly did it to support the mental health of engineering, but
| has now become a perk to try to entice talent.
| nr2x wrote:
| It's an interesting question. I'm at a fairly senior level so
| aside from meetings I'd say my work is semi-continuous as I think
| about the problems I'm working on regardless of if I'm at my desk
| or not. So I don't really think the "hours on the clock" paradigm
| applies in one sense.
|
| It's not unusual for me to knock out a couple casual meetings on
| Friday morning then just sign off and go for a hike. But again,
| there's a good chance I'm thinking about work on that hike. Is
| that a 4 day week? Is it 4.5? Is it 7? I dunno!
| Aeolun wrote:
| > I'm at a fairly senior level so aside from meetings I'd say
| my work is semi-continuous as I think about the problems I'm
| working on regardless of if I'm at my desk or not.
|
| This is true for me as well, but somehow my boss doesn't seem
| to think that way. For the sake of consistency I think we
| should say time not spent at your desk is time off.
| mensetmanusman wrote:
| Same, mix in the 6 AM Tokyo meetings and the 8 PM Seoul and you
| have to take afternoons off to stay sane.
| nr2x wrote:
| Ha, I'm in PST working with a lot of people in EEA. So yeah,
| if I'm taking a 7am meeting I'm clocking out "early".
| macNchz wrote:
| > Is that a 4 day week? Is it 4.5? Is it 7? I dunno!
|
| To me that sounds like 4.5 days-in this modern work environment
| I see "working days" as days where there is an expectation of
| availability and/or action. An off day therefore should involve
| no expectation that you're reachable, or that you'll make
| outwardly visible progress on your projects.
|
| Personally I really try not to work weekends, but some weekend
| days I'll have an idea, or feel the need to get ahead of
| things, and I'll do some work. I don't consider myself to have
| a six day a week job in that case-nobody has the expectation
| that I'm reachable then or that things on my todo list will be
| getting checked off.
| Apreche wrote:
| I just recently started a 32 hour a week salaried job. Here's my
| story.
|
| I was at a very good job. My ultimate goal is to just go to the
| beach and not work at all. I realized that's too big of a leap,
| so I set a shorter term more realistic goal of working 4 days a
| week.
|
| My employer at the time rejected the idea, so instead of ignoring
| recruiters like usual, I answered them. If a job wasn't immoral,
| the interview process wasn't arduous, and I felt I could do the
| job, I went through with interviews in good faith.
|
| Every time I did this, I got to the offer phase. With nothing to
| lose, at that moment I asked to work four days a week. I didn't
| demand it. I just asked for it. I think I even said the exact
| words "I know you'll probably say no to this, but I want to work
| four days a week."
|
| One place made an offer that wasn't better enough compared to my
| existing job. I didn't accept and moved on.
|
| Eventually a place made an offer I couldn't refuse. I have been
| here almost two months. Have yet to work on a Friday. I'm
| actually working harder than ever on Monday through Thursday. I
| am motivated to make this last, because honestly it is just as
| fantastic as I imagined. My life is so good right now despite the
| world being terrible.
|
| My new salary is higher as well.
| adventured wrote:
| > My life is so good right now despite the world being
| terrible.
|
| The world is overwhelmingly amazing, not terrible.
|
| For the majority of people this is one of the best times to be
| alive in all of human history. Rivaled only by the years prior
| to the pandemic.
| icedchai wrote:
| In the greater scheme of things, you're probably right. On
| the other hand, 2019 was the last "normal" year we will
| experience for a very long time. That doesn't feel good.
| Aeolun wrote:
| Just change your standard of normal? Those bland boring
| years before 2020 in which nothing bad ever happened.
| [deleted]
| braingenious wrote:
| GP didn't say that the world is terrible _because it is
| comparatively worse than it used to be_ , that would be a
| different statement. "Terrible" is not an objectively
| quantifiable adjective subject to factual policing.
|
| For example, one person can say "The world is terrible
| because fascism is on the rise in many countries." Another
| person pointing out that polio infection rates are very low
| does not cancel out the first statement. Everybody gets to
| have a subjective opinion!
| roey2009 wrote:
| War, Deglobalization, Climate Change, Resource scarcity,
| Economic bubbles.
|
| What the fuck are you on about, the world is olympic diving
| into the garbage heap.
|
| Edit: If you downvote, please have the decency to explain
| your reasoning. Are you saying this opinion is incorrect?
| Why? It is to my understanding a race against time, when
| concerning climate change alone. One we are losing. Do you
| just dislike hearing about it?
| Group_B wrote:
| As if none of that existed in the past?
| roey2009 wrote:
| Are you of a differing opinion? If so, I am desperate for
| some hope.
| stack_framer wrote:
| Take a look at https://www.humanprogress.org
| DawnQFunk2 wrote:
| DiggyJohnson wrote:
| You can disagree strongly without ridiculous hyperbole. GP
| doesn't deserve to be banned for being a radical optimist,
| get a grip.
| jokethrowaway wrote:
| The pandemic is still ongoing, plenty of countries still
| enforce masks.
|
| Inflation is indirectly taxing people more and more and our
| society is going to hell because wealthy people brainwash
| people and destroy families.
|
| Governments all around the world are becoming closer and
| closer to China every day.
|
| Sure, we may have more technology nowadays (thanks
| capitalism) - but frankly I would have preferred being born
| in the 50s.
| na85 wrote:
| The world is objectively a shitty, awful place for billions
| of people.
| SaltyBackendGuy wrote:
| When in history has that not been true?
| wizofaus wrote:
| Before about 1800, when the world didn't have billions of
| people? And who knows how shitty it really did feel for
| most people throughout history, when they had little else
| to compare against.
| viraptor wrote:
| I was happy doing 40h, but after we had a baby I asked for 4 days
| instead for an undefined amount of time. Tbh, I don't think my
| productivity changed at all with the day dropped so it's a bit of
| a shame that the salary did.
|
| But given I work in tech and basically get a very comfortable
| lifestyle either way, I don't think I'll go back to 5 days if
| possible. I know the current company won't push me to do it, and
| I interviewed with another which was fine with 4 days.
|
| My wife also does 4 days (different), so my son gets an extra
| weekday with each of us independently which is also a great
| thing.
| philmcp wrote:
| In my previous job I asked my boss if he would let me drop down
| to 3 days per week (60% salary). To my slight surprise, he was
| totally fine with it
|
| I did this after working hard for ~1 year at the company. Once
| you prove your worth, it's in your employers interests to keep
| you i.e. it would cost them way more if you left for another job
| with shorter working hours so don't be afraid to ask
|
| If it was doing it again though, I'd request this during my
| yearly review, and I'd ask for a 4 day week with no drop in
| salary
|
| There are already companies offering a 32 hours work week though:
|
| https://4dayweek.io/
|
| Disclaimer: I'm the founder
| tokinonagare wrote:
| Awesome! I joined the industry temporarily but the 5 days week
| (with 3 hours commutation) is soul crushing. Four days makes it
| fine to cope with. I hope I can find something using your
| website so I can work more on my personal projects.
| vbezhenar wrote:
| After few months if everyone's happy with your work, you can
| definitely ask for some days being remote and gradually
| increase it to fully remote, if you can manage yourself
| responsibly. 3 hours commutation is definitely not something
| you should endure for the rest of your life.
| akudha wrote:
| Awesome, thank you for the link and the answer!
| garciasn wrote:
| While I'm already very much an advocate for paying my team
| what why're worth, the recent shifts with remote work has put
| extreme pressure on companies to meet salary expectations in
| much larger markets.
|
| I have an employee who needed a 33% increase due to market
| pressures. While we were going to already meet 15% of that at
| his next annual, budgets didn't easily allow for the other
| 18.
|
| Instead, he got a significant raise and a 4-day week to boot.
| He's happy. I'm happy. And, frankly, we don't see any
| productivity loss.
|
| It is absolutely possible.
| marvin wrote:
| Yup. Been for a few years now. Hired through normal application,
| full time developer on a team of 6-ish. Worked there for a few
| years before negotiating down to 90%; a day off every other week.
| Then a year after that negotiated down to 80%. Proportional
| salary cuts in both cases.
|
| Wasn't very hard to convince them. Made sure I was available for
| whatever coordination is required. Made sure I still meet
| expectations. Argued that my productivity wouldn't fall
| proportionally to the drop in time. No one has complained. Was a
| few months of adaption to make people realize I'm normally not
| available one of the days a week, but everyone has taken it in
| stride. Most are a little jealous.
| cnorthwood wrote:
| When joining my current company I said in the negotiation phase
| that I'd like to do a 4 day week in exchange for 80% of the
| offered salary. They agreed.
| 2muchcoffeeman wrote:
| I have worked a 4 day week for a year and a half and it is indeed
| as glorious as people make out _IF you retain control of that day
| off_. If it turns out that people expect you to do chores for
| them, it feels like you 're just working for no pay.
| gedy wrote:
| Company wouldn't budge on salary (~20% lower than I was aiming
| for), but manager really wanted me so I proposed 4-day work week.
| Fair compromise imho.
| bootloop wrote:
| Same salary then or also 20% less?
| gedy wrote:
| Same salary
| StopHammoTime wrote:
| That is some 4D chess on your part. Well played!
| flyingfences wrote:
| Earlier this summer, my employer switched the entire company from
| a 5x8 to a 4x10 schedule. We're still working 40 hours per week,
| but the three-day weekends and the avoided commute definitely
| outweigh the earlier mornings.
| schrodinger wrote:
| I'm not, but I manage an engineer who recently asked. He's
| fantastic, why would I care? I just filled out a form with HR and
| he's now at 80% pay 4 days a week.
|
| I treat him with respect and he treats me with respect. If it
| ends up turning into a really difficult situation for the team,
| we might have a discussion about how to improve. But honestly
| knowing he's out every Friday will probably be a good forcing
| function for us to have a day with few meetings etc.
| maveonair wrote:
| Yes, I have been working 4 days a week (80%) in Switzerland for
| ten years.
|
| Here in Switzerland there are many job opportunities in different
| positions, from junior to very high positions, including
| engineering management.
|
| Nowadays it is not uncommon for other colleagues to work 80% as
| well, especially if they have become parents.
| slater wrote:
| Negotiated it to 32h due to COVID pandemic; there wasn't enough
| work for 40h, so I floated the idea, boss was OK with it. Never
| going back to 40h though, 3 days off in a row is pretty spiffy :D
| isomorph wrote:
| I went down from 5 days to 2 days and then up to 3 days all in
| the same FAANG role thanks to a doctor's note for a chronic
| illness
| Nimitz14 wrote:
| Yup, in switzerland. The work-life balance is amazing. I asked
| for it when negotiating the job offer, employer had to accept
| since there were no other candidates and I was a perfect fit.
|
| Tired of being the most knowledgeable person in the room though,
| so accepted a full-time position in the US I will change to soon.
| nhooyr wrote:
| Will you miss Switzerland?
| hobo_mark wrote:
| So... are they hiring? :)
| bamboozled wrote:
| Yeah but really I work 5
| simonblack wrote:
| Many employers are looking for the hours to be filled, without
| necessarily specifying that each employee works the whole hours.
| That is especially the case for enterprises that work 7 days a
| week or (say) 12 hours a day.
|
| In those cases, you either negotiate upfront before you start
| that you are only available for 3, 4 or five days a week or
| whatever number you want. Or you state at some point that you
| want to reduce your hours to whatever figure suits you, in which
| case there is an opening for another person to fill those now-
| unstaffed hours.
|
| If the employer is only open for business 40 hours (5 x 8 hours)
| a week, then there is a situation which is more difficult to
| vary. But it's still doable to have two or more people sharing
| that single position: that's called "job-sharing".
| baobob wrote:
| I've worked formal 3 and 4 day week arrangements. Net experience:
| it's pointless, if you're working 4 day weeks and you're feeling
| behind, you may well end up working that 5th day without anyone
| asking.
|
| Similarly in a 5 day week arrangement, I've never felt compelled
| to actually work the full week especially when I'm ahead.
|
| Ignoring any formality, I think most folk work a 2-3 week if they
| were honest about it.
|
| I wouldn't sweat having a 3/4 day arrangement as a reason to pick
| one company over another, especially if the offer is implicitly
| part of attempting to screw you on salary
| Cockbrand wrote:
| German here, where part-time arrangements in tech are somewhat
| normal. I negotiated my 32 hour work week right at the beginning,
| and there was no discussion about it, and none was expected.
|
| I kind of get only an 80% salary, which seems a bit unfair as
| studies prove that part-time workers are more efficient [1], but
| the way better work-life balance is definitely worth it.
|
| [1] Researching the validity of this claim is left as an exercise
| for the reader.
|
| [EDIT] I have Wednesdays off, which is fantastic and somewhat
| based on science:
| https://www.rdasia.com/healthsmart/conditions/mental-health/...
| schrodinger wrote:
| Agree on the 80% thing but it's so hard to quantify output that
| a simple formula probably ends up feeling the most fair to most
| people. Also, remember what another person pointed out--it's
| not really a 20% pay cut because it's your highest-taxed salary
| that's been cut.
| detaro wrote:
| "Hey boss, I'd like to go down to 32 hours/week at least for a
| bit"
|
| "sure, email HR to adjust your contract and tell your teamlead"
| jen729w wrote:
| Yes.
|
| I'm a contractor at a large IT integrator in Australia.
|
| It helps that my boss was (see below) a good friend. I think it
| was mid-last-year, I just realised I'd be mentally healthier if I
| worked 4 days a week. So I said, I'm going to start working 4
| days a week. And he said, okay. Because he's great.
|
| And it is _glorious_. You go from spending almost three-quarters
| of your life at work (71.4%) to just over half (57.1%) and I know
| those numbers are silly but I put them there because that's
| really what it feels like.
|
| Previously the weekend was this fleeting thing that came and
| went. I barely remembered it before it was over. Now ... well,
| right now it's Monday morning, and Monday is the day that I don't
| work. Monday is the day that I spend on my side projects. Monday
| is the day that we go to the movies or go shopping or to a
| gallery.
|
| FAQs, do I still work 40 hours? No. I did for a spell, when it
| was busy. I'd say my average has been 36. But now I'm on 32.
|
| Do I get less done? Not really. There's so much wasted time in
| the typical day, and I do think that this has focused me the
| times that I am at work. When I'm on, I'm on.
|
| I'll fight tooth and nail to keep this arrangement. I'm looking
| for a new job. The boss moved on to a different role, it's that
| transition time when everyone seems to move on.
|
| I've put my 4 day thing in the front section of my resume. Which
| is on GitHub, so if anyone in Canberra is reading and wants to
| hire the guy behind Johnny.Decimal, all my details are here.
|
| https://github.com/johnnydecimal/resume
| lethologica wrote:
| Bit if a tangent but I absolutely love the Johnny Decimal
| system so much. It has become my defacto way of sorting things
| now. Didn't know the person who invented was Aussie too, very
| cool! Good luck with your job search.
| gaadd33 wrote:
| Does anyone do this in a management role? Team lead or better,
| department head?
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