[HN Gopher] More content by people, for people in Search
       ___________________________________________________________________
        
       More content by people, for people in Search
        
       Author : gingerlime
       Score  : 246 points
       Date   : 2022-08-19 08:03 UTC (14 hours ago)
        
 (HTM) web link (blog.google)
 (TXT) w3m dump (blog.google)
        
       | otobrglez wrote:
       | What could possibly go wrong?
       | 
       | O, wait. That's how the SEO hacking industry was born.
        
       | SCLeo wrote:
       | I write novels as a hobby and I publish them on my website. I
       | recently noticed that there are websites that blatantly copy and
       | sell my novels without my permission and are ranked higher than
       | mine. I think it is because Google identifies their pages as the
       | source. If anyone knows how to deal with issues like this, please
       | let me know.
        
         | fooey wrote:
         | Send DMCA complaints to google
        
         | CoastalCoder wrote:
         | Unfortunately it sounds to like a lawsuit may be your best bet.
        
           | robotnikman wrote:
           | Unless they are hosted by people in countries unfriendly with
           | the US, in which case good luck.
        
         | codazoda wrote:
         | I would write up a simple cease and desist letter and send it
         | to the registrar, web host, page owner, Google, and anyone else
         | you can identify. You might even be able to write a script that
         | does some lookups for you. May not work for foreign domains,
         | hosts, etc. But, maybe. YMMV
        
           | Aulig wrote:
           | > script that does some lookups for you
           | 
           | Might want to check out https://plagiashield.com/
           | 
           | I use it occasionally but don't have an active subscription.
           | But it's decent at finding stolen content (except for false
           | positives on privacy policy & TOS)
        
         | injidup wrote:
         | With what license do you publish them?
        
       | mdmglr wrote:
       | > Last year, we kicked off a series of updates to show more
       | helpful, in-depth reviews based on first-hand expertise in search
       | results.
       | 
       | I find myself searching <product name> + "review reddit" to find
       | real honest reviews. My anecdotal experience is that everything
       | else is written by content creators who are given the product for
       | free to use for a few days/weeks/months w/o going in depth.
        
         | marttt wrote:
         | Same here. For more niche stuff, <product name> +
         | "site:news.ycombinator.com" is standard practice. Or Algolia's
         | HN search.
         | 
         | Another one is <product name> + "forum" or <product name> +
         | <some trusted forum>.
         | 
         | I train myself to use DDG, but, to my own dissapointment, I end
         | up with "!g <query> site:something-trustworthy.com" way too
         | often.
         | 
         | For regular Google searches, I've had the feeling of being
         | "scammed" for years, though. The "fishing devil" on the no-
         | results page also feels like buttering up the user. I always
         | subconsciously interpret this as a lightly humiliating, but
         | cowardly way to say "we decide what you see, bro". But, YMMV.
         | 
         | Never wanted to bash anybody, but this has got to be the most
         | negative post I've ever written on HN. Please, please, please,
         | Google, give me the search results of around 2008-2010. Pages,
         | pages, pages of results for almost any query. I worked as a
         | journalist then, and googling was actually useful, even
         | educational, in real life.
        
           | visarga wrote:
           | I use the "Search the current site" Chrome extension. You can
           | just hop to a YC or Reddit page and click the search icon,
           | but it works with all websites.
           | 
           | https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/search-the-
           | current...
        
         | spaceman_2020 wrote:
         | I can assure you that 90% of these product review sites have
         | never even used the product, and the content is almost always
         | written by a $25/article writer from Upwork.
        
           | ThalesX wrote:
           | Awhile ago the company I used to work for used a local
           | service that does 2 pieces of content per week for you for
           | lime 50EUR / month. Quality was shit but it did get us views
           | and paying customers.
        
         | throw10920 wrote:
         | At this point, I'm not sure how many of the Reddit reviews are
         | valid, either.
         | 
         | Marketers may be dumb, but they're not stupid - all it takes is
         | a few people to notice Google starting to add "reddit" to their
         | autocomplete, start looking around, figure out what's going on,
         | and then suddenly the whole "SEO"/marketing spam sphere is
         | aware of it and will start making sockpuppet accounts.
        
         | permarad wrote:
         | Yeh I find myself adding 'reddit' a lot to my search queries.
         | I'm looking for someone asking the same question, and someone
         | answering it.
        
       | dgudkov wrote:
       | I don't think Google will ever be able to distinguish texts that
       | are written for people from texts that are written for Google.
       | It's effectively the Turing test, and Google won't pass it.
        
         | corille wrote:
         | The way I read it, this is aimed at derivative texts that were
         | scraped from other sites. If Google indexes those sites, they
         | can recognize when the content of a newly indexed site is
         | copied from elsewhere.
        
           | rchaud wrote:
           | Most of the blogspam on the Internet today are website filled
           | with product 'reviews' and affiliate links. These aren't
           | derivative of anything, so they won't be downgraded. Neither
           | will the hordes of blogs breathlessly reporting celebrity and
           | business gossip. A search engine won't be able to
           | differentiate between the quality of a TMZ vs say Variety.
        
         | JW_00000 wrote:
         | It's worse than a Turing test: it's trying to distinguish
         | between a honest human (writing content they are knowledgeable
         | about or that is original) vs a dishonest human (who writes
         | filler content just to get a higher ranking). It would almost
         | need to be able to read the author's mind to figure out their
         | intention. Or, given a text, figure out if what it is saying is
         | original and/or true.
        
           | visarga wrote:
           | No, they are trying to distinguish between content that is
           | going to make $ for them vs content that is not going to make
           | $. They don't care about truth or utility.
        
       | gambler wrote:
       | This is just 2nd order gaslighting. For many, many years Google
       | was denying obvious problems with how their search system worked.
       | Denial and gaslighting was clearly their marketing strategy. It
       | kind of worked too, at least in terms of public opinion in tech
       | space. Now something has changed and they're suddenly pretending
       | to care. Problem is, this effectively gaslights people about
       | their prior gaslighting.
       | 
       | Why was the company blatantly denying obvious issues for so many
       | years? What has changed? Why should I trust their judgment all of
       | a sudden?
       | 
       | It's kind of like someone who is a pathologic liar having been
       | caught in various lies for many years, swearing to tell you the
       | truth, but not admitting to the past lies.
        
         | jsnell wrote:
         | Can you give a few concrete examples of these "blatant
         | denials"?
        
       | TedShiller wrote:
       | lol
        
       | wilde wrote:
       | It's great to hear them admit that there is a problem. For years
       | we'd get "our internal quality measures say we're doing great.
       | You're imagining things. Fuck off to Bing and see how you like
       | it."
       | 
       | I suspect they have an inventory problem, not a ranking problem.
       | Why would any real humans publish publicly on the internet at
       | this point?
       | 
       | If you're posting for fun you have to deal with moderation and
       | stolen content.
       | 
       | If you're posting for pay Google just takes your content and
       | shoves it onto the SERP, skipping your ads.
       | 
       | Bill Gates had it right. If you want a sustainable ecosystem, you
       | need to make sure the other players are making more money than
       | you in aggregate. As far as I can tell, that's only true on the
       | internet for eCommerce and so that's all that's left.
        
       | dzonga wrote:
       | google search getting worse day by day.
       | 
       | and they're increasing surface area for the results to become
       | more garbage.
       | 
       | what are trusted experts ? does google wanna be a publisher now ?
        
       | troelsSteegin wrote:
       | What reading the post suggests to me is that they are identifying
       | high quality chunks of content as unique, and then ranking pages
       | up or down in part according to what was seen to have published a
       | given chunk first.
        
       | dmix wrote:
       | > Are you writing about things simply because they seem trending
       | and not because you'd write about them otherwise for your
       | existing audience?
       | 
       | This is something youtube should be updating their algorithm for
        
       | jccalhoun wrote:
       | I am so sick and tired of sites that have a bunch of filler
       | content in them just to appear higher in search results. You
       | search for something, say "How to change a light bulb" and you
       | get all this front loading with sections on "what is a light
       | bulb?" "Why do light bulbs need changing?" "Picking a light bulb"
       | and then finally the answer.
       | 
       | Maybe a search engine that could prioritize getting to the point
       | would be good.
        
         | byteduck wrote:
         | I've found that DDG (and by some extension, Bing) seems to do a
         | little bit better at this. But, the only search engine I've
         | found that actually does a _good_ job at this is Kagi. It 's
         | really good at filtering out those SEO spam articles, and even
         | separates out stuff like listicles when it's not what you're
         | looking for.
        
           | [deleted]
        
         | skilled wrote:
         | I mean, I have seen some really funky articles relating to what
         | you said - articles that are ranking on page one.
         | 
         | I was looking up some niche stuff in JavaScript space, and the
         | article started out with a sentence:
         | 
         |  _" An increasing number of developers are looking to get
         | started with web development. And because of this, they are
         | searching to get started with <a fairly complex topic to grasp
         | for a beginner>."_
         | 
         | Sooo.... developers are looking to get started with
         | development...
         | 
         | And like you say, the same goes for all the "What is a <topic>"
         | - feels like a fundamental error on Google's part for parsing
         | language intent.
        
         | rchaud wrote:
         | Basic queries like "how to change a light bulb" are better
         | answered on Youtube; it's not 1995 anymore, a web page
         | explaining that with text and pictures is slower than creating
         | a video. The only ones still writing web pages for things like
         | that are trying to sell you something. If they weren't, they'd
         | also just make a video.
        
           | albrewer wrote:
           | > Basic queries like "how to change a light bulb" are better
           | answered on Youtube
           | 
           | Hard disagree. If the best content for the problem is a
           | video, then sure, bubble that up to the top of the search
           | results. But to limit yourself to only one medium is
           | ridiculous.
        
           | jccalhoun wrote:
           | it may be faster to create a video but it is faster for me to
           | skim through and read and determine if it is relevant than it
           | is to sit through a preroll ad, skim through the video, wait
           | for the video to load, find the part that is relevant but I
           | skipped ahead into the middle, so I have to skip back and
           | wait for that to load again, then a midroll ad shows up. ugh.
        
           | tofuahdude wrote:
           | "better for you" != "better for everyone"
           | 
           | People have very different preferences in the format of
           | content they consume.
        
           | juve1996 wrote:
           | Completely disagree. Videos take forever. Often times I have
           | a specific query and text is easier to search than
           | information within videos.
        
       | xpe wrote:
       | Most people want a search engine designed to understand what they
       | want in context.
       | 
       | But until people pay for that search capability directly, the
       | economic incentives will not align.
       | 
       | And there is the ever present temptation of accepting money from
       | advertisers. This is potentially lucrative. Will consumers ever
       | pay enough directly to offset seller interests to sway search
       | results? I doubt it under the current regulatory framework.
       | 
       | We need changes.
       | 
       | Some people (policy people and economists mostly) know about
       | Ronald Coase. One of his key points is we can rebalance who has
       | the upper hand at the beginning of a market (initial conditions)
       | and still have economic efficiency.
       | 
       | Coase's classic analysis compares two hypothetical worlds. In one
       | world, smoking is legal and non-smokers have to compensate
       | smokers in order to have a smoke free experience. In the other
       | world the opposite is true. Both worlds can be completely
       | economically efficient (defined as the equilibrium where there
       | are no additional exchanges that make all parties better off).
       | The difference between the worlds is purely distributional -- who
       | gets to have more money.
       | 
       | Distributional questions have a considerable ethical component.
       | Like most people, I prefer the second over the first.
       | 
       | Regulation could also similarly apply to search engines. We could
       | tilt the balance in favor of consumers instead of sellers (in the
       | case of public companies, this means investors).
       | 
       | What am I proposing? Simply put: more discussion about such
       | options.
       | 
       | I will not try specify the best legislation for all situations in
       | this already long comment. This does _not_ mean no significant
       | improvements are possible nor feasible. I simply do not want to
       | get mired in debate over only one policy option.
       | 
       | ---
       | 
       | About me: I listen to good libertarian style arguments as long as
       | they are realistic about the standard economic model's
       | limitations and failure modes: externalities, market power,
       | imperfect information, nonrational consumers, and so on. / I lean
       | liberal, so I care about transition costs too. Rapid change is
       | hard because people have limited geographic mobility, especially
       | in the short run. I also care about observable, measurable
       | opportunities more than only hypothetical talk about options.
        
       | eric4smith wrote:
       | More and More above the fold content is coming from google sites.
       | 
       | That's not gonna change.
       | 
       | Especially if you're searching for local services above the fold
       | will be ads then maps listings.
       | 
       | I get it. But that blog post is some 1984 shit. Hahaha.
        
       | dalbasal wrote:
       | >> _We know people don't find content helpful if it seems like it
       | was designed to attract clicks rather than inform readers. So..._
       | 
       | Back when "SEO" was new, I would read the Matt Cutts blog. He was
       | head of "anti-spam." I remember thinking back then that anti-spam
       | was an ignorant frame.
       | 
       | Once Google gained importance, websites started trying to improve
       | their rankings. That might mean migrating from Flash to HTML. It
       | might mean meta-tags, content, keyword stuffing, link
       | collecting... paying a consultant.
       | 
       | Google's early view/advice seemed to be: "Just ignore rankings.
       | You do your thing, makes your site as useful you can. We'll do
       | our thing: judging your site algorithmically and deciding how to
       | rank it." Websites intentionally trying to improve rankings was
       | ipso facto spam. The very idea of SEO was spam.
       | 
       | Naturally, cracks appeared. Flash and embedded images was an
       | early one. Google's initial position was: "HTML is better for
       | users." They thought websites should use clean HTML regardless of
       | rankings. No contradictions need be confronted
       | 
       | Once a two sided conversation starts, that crack becomes a wedge.
       | It becomes clear that website owners don't care about the
       | usability of plain html text. Usability doesn't matter until you
       | have users... and users come from Google. The "language" of SEO
       | continued developing in this disingenuous way. Google pretended
       | to be giving tips about accessibility or content, that
       | tangentially also improve rankings. Websites pretended that their
       | keyword stuffing was about usability or whatnot.
       | 
       | Google have been carrying this culture of euphemisation for
       | almost 20 years now. Elephants stampede all over the meeting
       | room. Everyone tries hard to pretend they don't hear the
       | deafening trumpeting.
       | 
       | Youtube is an even more extreme example. Google's algorithms,
       | policies and processes throw an entire media industry around,
       | while Google pretend these are just minor side effects, or that
       | it isn't happening. The gaslighting is awful.
        
         | kylecordes wrote:
         | I agree with you, but Google also faces a perhaps impossible
         | problem of how to detect good content on YouTube.
         | 
         | They can look at how long people watch; but that ends up
         | rewarding rambling pointless blather when a concise two minute
         | video would be perfect.
         | 
         | They can look at likes or subscribes, but that causes many
         | wasted human lifetimes per day, of people saying and listening
         | to pleading to click said buttons.
        
           | bsedlm wrote:
           | no longer true, a lot of videos have autogenerated captions.
           | so that's a start, it's text, use text ranking techniques.
        
         | gsatic wrote:
         | They lost control long long ago. It's basically a Jurassic Park
         | story at this stage.
        
           | [deleted]
        
       | thallukrish wrote:
       | What if unique content is not the one I want?
        
       | pcdoodle wrote:
       | Good. I'm getting sick of adding -2022 and -best to my searches.
       | The results are a wasteland...
        
         | jfoster wrote:
         | That's a super interesting approach to culling the spam, since
         | web spammers often are trying to make old content look new.
         | Does it work well?
        
           | pcdoodle wrote:
           | YMMV. It seems like google only lists "authoritative" domains
           | on the first few pages. Tried to fight the brightest TV by
           | nits / mcd/m3 and that trick didn't work for me :(
           | 
           | Sometimes adding "reddit" helps.
        
       | entwife wrote:
       | Google's advantages are PageRank, a head start (time), and its
       | sheer size.
        
       | jl6 wrote:
       | It's good that they recognize Search has become a cesspool, but
       | their incentives fundamentally don't align with users. One of the
       | things that makes content farms suck is advert-delimited
       | paragraphs, and I don't see Google downranking those sites while
       | they are taking a cut from the delimiters.
        
       | kylecordes wrote:
       | AI content writing tools are now staggeringly good at producing a
       | huge volume of pointless text, for incrementally $0.00 per word -
       | previously the nonzero cost per word of hiring the lowest-cost
       | writer available, was at least a little bit of drag on the whole
       | Internet filling with pointless content.
       | 
       | Google has a giant hard problem to solve here. I hope they are
       | successful.
       | 
       | If they aren't successful, it could be a door opening for someone
       | else to take a stab at search.
        
       | politelemon wrote:
       | > tackle content that seems to have been primarily created for
       | ranking well in search engines rather than to help or inform
       | people
       | 
       | By my understanding, this should _hopefully_ cause Pinterest
       | pages to disappear from image searches too, but by my experience,
       | they 're a big site so Google will have made an exception for
       | them.
       | 
       | And it should likely deal with those StackOverflow 'clone' sites
       | which sometimes rank better than StackOverflow itself.
        
       | freediver wrote:
       | The more accurate title would be "Less content by robots".
       | 
       | Unfortunately, what is not mentioned in the article is that sole
       | existence of these content-farms is enabled by Adsense. So
       | basically they are in the chicken and egg problem, and the only
       | way to really solve it is to acknowledge that ad-based business
       | models lead to detoriation of content on the web, get rid of
       | Adsense (probably miniscule revenue contribution compared to
       | Adwords) and then figure out how they resolve their own business
       | model incentives and outcomes for users. Tough one.
        
         | dmix wrote:
         | These Google search blogs NEVER honestly talk about the
         | problems or their (alleged) solutions.
         | 
         | You basically have to act as a mind-reading translator to
         | understand what they actually did.
        
       | nyxtom wrote:
       | Flash back to 1998 when Sergey Brin and Lawrence Page when they
       | said an ad-supported model will never be able to rank quality
       | content. Seems like they almost realize it
       | 
       | > "Currently, the predominant business model for commercial
       | search engines is advertising. The goals of the advertising
       | business model do not always correspond to providing quality
       | search to users. For example, in our prototype search engine one
       | of the top results for cellular phone is "The Effect of Cellular
       | Phone Use Upon Driver Attention", a study which explains in great
       | detail the distractions and risk associated with conversing on a
       | cell phone while driving. This search result came up first
       | because of its high importance as judged by the PageRank
       | algorithm, an approximation of citation importance on the web
       | [Page, 98].
       | 
       | > It is clear that a search engine which was taking money for
       | showing cellular phone ads would have difficulty justifying the
       | page that our system returned to its paying advertisers. For this
       | type of reason and historical experience with other media
       | [Bagdikian 83], we expect that advertising funded search engines
       | will be inherently biased towards the advertisers and away from
       | the needs of the consumers."
        
         | [deleted]
        
       | whage wrote:
       | Reading through the comments here (and very much feeling the pain
       | they describe), this idea came: Shouldn't we have a search engine
       | that heavily favours the types of websites that we typically look
       | for? You know, the classic 90s style tech blogs, the plain HTML
       | documentation pages. Ignoring websites with ads, sites with lots
       | of baggage (fonts, scripts, whatnot), sites with lots of images.
       | Maybe increase the ranking of pages that don't change much in
       | their look and content as time goes by. I don't know. Would it be
       | useful? How would it pay for itself?
        
         | powerhour wrote:
         | Remember Hotbot? They had a way to limit searches to those that
         | used JavaScript. ha!
         | 
         | https://wikieducator.org/File:Hotbot.gif
        
         | superkuh wrote:
         | millionshort.com used to be good but it recently joined the
         | mega-corp search pack and hid it's search engine behind
         | required code exectution that blocks non-megacorp browsers.
         | 
         | https://searchmysite.net/ is a curated search for exactly what
         | you describe though. It's been on HN a couple times.
        
         | rchaud wrote:
         | What you're describing is an internet that hasn't existed since
         | 2006, or whenever Jquery and Ajax started becoming mainstream.
         | 
         | Sites containing "fonts and scripts" are not baggage. They have
         | just been updated for modern times. Sites have to measure
         | traffic somehow, and it's not going to be via a "Guest Counter"
         | widget like they had back in the Geocities days.
         | 
         | You might be looking for an alt-web like that hosted on the
         | Gemini network. It's all text and HTML-only as I understand.
        
       | WalterBright wrote:
       | I infer that there is a point after all to having my extensive
       | personal library.
        
       | s1k3s wrote:
       | > More helpful product reviews written by experts
       | 
       | This translates to "more YT videos made by our content-creators",
       | right? Searching for "macbook pro m2 reviews" gives me 5 YT
       | videos at the top, all repeating the same stuff over and over
       | again and (no offense) made by people who aren't really experts.
       | Or are they?
        
         | lloyddobbler wrote:
         | It's the internet. Everyone is an expert!
         | 
         | (/s, if it wasn't blatantly obvious.)
        
           | s1k3s wrote:
           | What's funny in this specific search for macbook reviews is
           | that the well known websites which really have interesting
           | information AND dig deep in the product specs AND have been
           | there for more than 2 decades are not even on the front page.
           | It's literally just the ones repeating the stuff I can find
           | in Apple's landing page, but rephrased by some copywriter.
        
         | rchaud wrote:
         | Tech reviews online are largely useless. Just like the "shocked
         | face" thumbnail, reviewers have realized that their viewers
         | want entertainment more than they want a review. So the video
         | largely ends up being an infomercial with a lot of product
         | shots, rehashing of specs and largely generic opinions.
        
       | okumurahata wrote:
       | On YouTube, there is an option called "Don't recommend channel".
       | I wonder why Google doesn't have a similar option. Or even
       | better, a "Recommend me this website as the first option" button.
       | It would useful to avoid spammy sites and to benefit the good
       | ones. To avoid gaming the algorithm, Google can't take this data
       | into account to benefit/punish websites on search results. The
       | button has the only purpose to customise the user experience one
       | by one. Over time though, and organically, spammy sites would get
       | less traffic. Eventually, they would be forced to shut down (lack
       | of ad revenue).
        
         | Youden wrote:
         | Kagi has this feature. You can mark websites to prioritise for
         | your results and websites to demote or completely exclude.
        
           | visarga wrote:
           | That's great, until they decide to nix it or you want to
           | migrate your list to another search engine. I wish we could
           | decouple these choices from the website providers. A web
           | browser that puts the user back in control.
        
             | xzjis wrote:
             | There is no reason to think that a paid search engine like
             | Kagi will get rid of one of it's signature functionality,
             | but if you're interested in an extension for browser:
             | https://github.com/iorate/ublacklist
        
         | AraceliHarker wrote:
         | The "Don't recommend channel" feature on YouTube is not
         | permanent, but the blocked channel will reappear after a while.
        
       | shortformblog wrote:
       | Anecdotally, my level of daily traffic from organic search
       | (driven by evergreen history articles on esoteric topics) has
       | roughly doubled from where it was a month ago and is at a
       | significantly higher level than it's been over the past year.
       | Looking further back in history it seems there was a dip after
       | the spring of 2020 that largely has defined my search-based
       | traffic levels since then, and the traffic from search has
       | largely bounced back in the past two weeks.
       | 
       | While it's still early, I will say that I'm seeing better results
       | from a variety of search results, whereas I had 2-3 consistent
       | search performers that drove most of the traffic prior to the
       | recent change.
       | 
       | Just the perspective from someone who runs a long-running tech-
       | meets-history newsletter.
        
         | nicbou wrote:
         | Mine dipped slightly, to the level of a year ago. It looks like
         | it might have been bumped again this week. It's undeniably
         | genuine, original, quality content. However I don't know how _a
         | machine_ reads and scores my content. Given the stuff YouTube
         | thinks I like, I 'm scared.
        
       | iLoveOncall wrote:
       | Hopefully this helps when looking for genuine product reviews /
       | suggestions.
       | 
       | The only way to get half-decent reviews at the moment is to
       | append "reddit" to your search query, otherwise you get pages
       | full of comparatives that haven't tested any of the items they
       | recommend.
        
         | Cthulhu_ wrote:
         | And I'm afraid it's only a matter of time before Reddit stops
         | caring and allows more and more bots, content farms, or paid
         | posts on their platform.
        
           | peyton wrote:
           | Got bad news for you... it's a huge outlet for content
           | writers.
        
           | yunohn wrote:
           | I don't know what "Reddit stops caring" means. Currently most
           | moderation is done by an insular unpaid group of redditors.
           | There is already lots of stealth promotion/ad posts,
           | astroturfing, and trust issues. There is not inherent way to
           | fix the inevitable breakdown, it's a societal problem of
           | greed and dishonesty, and you can't easily just "ban bots".
        
           | paulgb wrote:
           | I'm mostly worried that they'll disable the "old.reddit.com"
           | trick to get the old layout. Finding information in reddit
           | threads is a complete chore with the new design, which only a
           | few comments displayed at a time.
        
       | skilled wrote:
       | Well, I am excited to see the impact of this.
       | 
       | These days there is no shortage of tools that monitor SERP
       | fluctuation, and if this update brings about _significant_ impact
       | it will be talked about everywhere.
       | 
       | And I fully expect spammers to go ballistic once their content
       | gets obliterated.
        
         | rchaud wrote:
         | If anything, spammers are years ahead of Google.
         | 
         | Did they go ballistic when Google introduced the Panda update
         | in 2010, killing many of the the web-scraped, machine-generated
         | blogspam that was poisoning search results? No, they moved on
         | to fresh territory like Youtube, gaming the recommendation
         | engines. And they eventually came back to the web to poison
         | results with hordes of awful 'best bicycle for fitness in 2022'
         | type afilliate marketing sites.
        
       | mclightning wrote:
       | Adding "site:reddit.com" improves search results by 10 folds in
       | many topics.
        
       | nfhshy68 wrote:
       | > More helpful product reviews written by experts
       | 
       | You mean content farms? Oh yea, more of that please.
        
       | bradhilton wrote:
       | For medical advice I would see more serious articles/blog posts
       | in search results and fewer listicles.
       | 
       | For meal recipes I would _just_ like to see the recipe and not a
       | blog post with dozens of ads.
       | 
       | For programming questions I don't want to see the sites that just
       | scrape and repackage stackoverflow questions; for a company run
       | by software developers they have to know about this problem lol.
        
         | marginalia_nu wrote:
         | It's funny, I've had almost embarrassing success building a
         | trivial recipe filter for my search engine. The code itself is
         | comically simple[1], I just count how many recipe-words I find
         | (from a manual dictionary), and then add a small penalty for
         | excessively lengthy texts. Very much a soviet space pencil
         | approach. It's hard to assess recall, but the precision seems
         | to be in the 80%+ range.
         | 
         | Check it:
         | https://search.marginalia.nu/search?query=scallops&profile=f...
         | 
         | [1]
         | https://git.marginalia.nu/marginalia/marginalia.nu/src/branc...
        
           | bradhilton wrote:
           | NICE! I like it, thanks for sharing!
        
         | rchaud wrote:
         | > For meal recipes I would just like to see the recipe and not
         | a blog post with dozens of ads.
         | 
         | Why not just buy a cookbook? It doesn't seem like the
         | convenience of accessing recipes at the touch of a button is
         | worth the tradeoff of ads.
        
         | powerhour wrote:
         | > For programming questions I don't want to see the sites that
         | just scrape and repackage stackoverflow questions; for a
         | company run by software developers they have to know about this
         | problem lol.
         | 
         | This fact alone tells me they're not willing to take search
         | result quality seriously. I'm sure medical professionals feel
         | the same way about relevant content that is scraped and
         | republished.
        
       | seanwilson wrote:
       | > Next week, we'll launch the "helpful content update" to tackle
       | content that seems to have been primarily created for ranking
       | well in search engines rather than to help or inform people. This
       | ranking update will help make sure that unoriginal, low quality
       | content doesn't rank highly in Search, and our testing has found
       | it will especially improve results related to online education,
       | as well as arts and entertainment, shopping and tech-related
       | content.
       | 
       | I know Google isn't going to reveal the exact secrets behind what
       | changes they're making to do this to avoid black hat SEO, but
       | haven't they been trying to do the above all along? What stops
       | the SEO community from observing how rankings change, guessing
       | what the new metrics are, and then optimising for these metrics
       | as usual until the search spam is back where it started?
       | 
       | What about letting users give a vote/rating or leaving a comment
       | on if a page was helpful? A big reason imo that Googling for
       | "reddit <search term>" works is that spammy stuff on social sites
       | (including Hacker News) gets punished quickly by spam filters,
       | down-votes and negative comments - regular Google search lacks
       | that because people can't down-vote or comment on a page. It
       | feels inevitable to me they'll have to start doing something like
       | this.
        
         | dazc wrote:
         | There is no incentive to arranging a downvoting scheme targeted
         | against a random poster on HN or Reddit, there is, however, a
         | great incentive to do the same against a commercial competitor
         | in Google search results.
         | 
         | Negative seo is a thing and any commercial site that is
         | remotely successful is targeted with it daily.
        
         | layer8 wrote:
         | > What about letting users give a vote/rating or leaving a
         | comment on if a page was helpful?
         | 
         | Difficult for such a system not to be gamed, e.g. via botnets.
        
           | seanwilson wrote:
           | What stops Reddit from being gamed like this? How does the
           | "reddit <search term>" trick on Google return good results in
           | a way that isn't being gamed?
           | 
           | I'm not saying it's as simple as adding an up/down vote
           | widget next to each Google search result, but what can Google
           | do to compete with social sites here where social sites have
           | a lot of rich signals about what users prefer? There's no way
           | to weigh or moderate each up/down vote based on how reliable
           | the source is? What stops Hacker News, Reddit and Slashdot
           | being overrun with spam from bot votes?
        
           | Spivak wrote:
           | And difficult for the system to not be gamed by brigadiers.
           | 
           | Also voting is an extremely skewed signal, what people say
           | they like and what they actually like are very different and
           | with search you can actually measure that by seeing which
           | results users actually go to and don't bounce from.
        
             | layer8 wrote:
             | I wonder about the bouncing, because I often either (1)
             | check out a couple more results, only to find that they
             | aren't better than the first acceptable one, or (2) open
             | the first ten or so promising search result in new tabs in
             | one go before looking at the actual pages. Google can only
             | make limited inferences about result quality from that,
             | meaning that its ratings become skewed toward less
             | sophisticated users.
        
       | kristaps wrote:
       | Could it be that the results have gotten so bad that less people
       | even bother with search, hurting ad revenue?
        
       | sebow wrote:
       | How does "more original content" doesn't sound like potential
       | shitty results for a given query? We've already seen tailoring
       | doesn't work universally and people often times want concrete
       | results.
        
       | coding123 wrote:
       | https://devrant.com/rants/4578894/holy-shit-google-nobody-li...
        
         | alecco wrote:
         | Remember the original gmail horrible emojis? They were also
         | sort of blobs with wide bottoms. But they eventually changed to
         | something closer to normal.
         | https://search.brave.com/images?q=gmail++emojis
        
           | smolder wrote:
           | I believe you mean "wonderful emojis". I'd rather use the
           | blobs.
        
         | ikeserbestian wrote:
         | Nice, I just realize I am not alone. Plus, their "material
         | design" is another graphical catastrophe. I can't look any
         | Google product because of this, notably Android.
        
         | emptyparadise wrote:
         | Corporate Memphis is so awful.
        
           | spaceman_2020 wrote:
           | Can't decide what I hate more: the pandering or the
           | infantalization or the forced cheerfulness of it all.
        
             | alecco wrote:
             | Smile or Die https://piped.kavin.rocks/watch?v=u5um8QWWRvo
        
               | emptyparadise wrote:
               | No wonder people are getting jokerfied.
        
             | throwaway1851 wrote:
             | For me, it's the nightmarish distortion of everyone's form.
             | Big sites have become a bad acid trip you can't wake up
             | from.
        
               | spaceman_2020 wrote:
               | Fitting. Corporations don't see us as real people anyway
               | now. Just an amorphous collection of wallets and
               | monetizable data.
        
         | [deleted]
        
         | [deleted]
        
       | Ensorceled wrote:
       | I'm cynical Google will be able to truly fix this or even want
       | to.
       | 
       | I think Google is part of a cartel; their search funnels people
       | to sites that run ads that often are part of the Google network.
       | Yes, they make a ton from search advertising but also a ton from
       | the greater network.
       | 
       | This is really the Mob boss cracking down on underlings who have
       | gone over the line and are collecting too much protection money
       | or are cutting the "goods".
        
         | pushkine wrote:
         | Many creators have noticed that YouTube's recommendation
         | algorithm is heavily skewed to favor videos with monetization
         | enabled. I wouldn't be surprised if Google Search's algorithm
         | was hard coded to favor websites using AdSense.
        
       | seydor wrote:
       | The fact that this is news, is news.
        
         | [deleted]
        
         | throwaway290 wrote:
         | The fact that the fact that this is news is news, is news.
        
         | Cthulhu_ wrote:
         | I was sure they announced Big Plans years ago to combat content
         | farms, to the point of e.g. browser add-ons so you could report
         | these things. Either they just didn't work and the content
         | farms outsmarted them, or they stopped caring. But it does feel
         | to me like Google was a lot stricter 5-10 years ago than they
         | are now.
         | 
         | In the interim they tried to push AMP, but had to admit finally
         | that it's more to keep people inside their ecosystem than make
         | the web faster/better.
        
         | dazc wrote:
         | In a year's time you'll still be reading the same complaints
         | about search quality though for the simple inescapable fact
         | that there is little incentive for anyone to write impartial
         | and authoritative reviews for anything that is isn't just a
         | random hobby.
         | 
         | What you may witness is less amazon affiliate posts and more
         | made for AdSense posts - such as those recipes that begin with
         | a random love story, for example.
        
           | plonk wrote:
           | I like to write impartial and authoritative reviews for
           | things that aren't just a random hobby of mine. Especially on
           | anonymous forums. This could be good, or it could make
           | advertisers start spamming forums with more fake accounts.
        
       | stabbles wrote:
       | Sure enough original, quality content will be generated by AI
        
       | paganel wrote:
       | A little OT, but is there a name for that design style that
       | Google is using here? I'm talking about the bearded dude at the
       | top of the article, with glasses and a phone in his hand.
       | 
       | I've seen it more and more during the last few years, from ads
       | around the city I live in to hipsterish magazines. There's
       | something about it that has started bugging me the wrong way, I
       | find it kind of infantilising but at the same time trying to
       | "sell" me something as an adult (an insurance product, a "life is
       | good" vibe because goofy drawings, that sort of thing). Or maybe
       | I'm seeing too much into it.
       | 
       | Later edit: I'm talking about visuals like this one [1], which,
       | looking at it again, I find quite similar in style to the one
       | Google is using (hence my question, there must be a trend or
       | something).
       | 
       | [1] https://www.reginamaria.ro/sites/default/files/inline-
       | images...
        
         | dilap wrote:
         | It's reminiscent of socialist realism -- with a modern, tech
         | twist. The favored art-style of woke companies. It's their
         | vision of utopia: a rainbow of skin tones, but everyone
         | belonging to the same global monoculture.
        
           | micromacrofoot wrote:
           | Well at least we made it past the white woman eating salad
           | stock-photo phase
        
           | cma wrote:
           | Reminds me of the hyper capitalist predecessor to corporate
           | memphis:
           | 
           | http://clipart-library.com/data_images/177477.png
           | 
           | Guys in baggy suits and ties running through fields. You
           | probably remember it from things like manual covers of
           | scanners and stuff.
        
             | phist_mcgee wrote:
             | There's something very ominous about this kind of art.
        
           | emptyparadise wrote:
           | I'd rather look at socialist realism. Soviet propaganda feels
           | a lot more genuine than these weird corporate caricatures.
        
         | asddubs wrote:
         | I've known it as alegria, see also this subreddit collecting
         | examples:
         | 
         | https://old.reddit.com/r/fuckalegriaart/
        
         | spaceman_2020 wrote:
         | Corporate Memphis
         | 
         | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporate_Memphis
        
         | gempir wrote:
         | Corporate Art Style, also referred to as Big Tech Art Style,
         | Globohomo Art Style and Corporate Memphis.
         | 
         | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporate_Memphis
         | 
         | https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/subcultures/corporate-art-sty...
        
           | spaceman_2020 wrote:
           | Globohomo Art Style lol. That's what I'll call it from now
           | on.
        
             | civilized wrote:
             | The name seems a gift to right-wing critics.
        
               | rchaud wrote:
               | generic stock art and iconography has right-wing critics?
        
               | mardifoufs wrote:
               | Globohomo means global homogeneity, even if some right
               | wingers seem to think it means...something else lol
        
         | [deleted]
        
       | rawoke083600 wrote:
       | Thanks Google. Now can we fix the recipes pages please.
       | 
       | No one wants the back story for the "the best brownies", I want
       | to know the ingredients, cooking temps (Celsius and Fahrenheit)
       | and time.
        
         | planb wrote:
         | I feel like these "back stories" will get even more important
         | for a high ranking if Google prioritizes "content by people,
         | for people"
        
         | yunohn wrote:
         | Google doesn't write recipes, dedicated and passionate cooks
         | write blogs with recipes in them.
         | 
         | I guarantee you that none of them are aiming to provide just a
         | grocery list or instructions, they definitely enjoy writing
         | their story as well. They're building their own cookbook
         | essentially, not a bunch of lists.
        
           | swiftcoder wrote:
           | Or, more likely, they are just SEO optimising by providing a
           | lot of prose (which Google has historically prioritised in
           | search rankings) - the same way as all those AI-generated
           | article summaries on the astroturfing sites
        
             | yunohn wrote:
             | How do you propose anyone (Google or humans) differentiate
             | between 500 mostly-similar recipes for brownies? I think
             | HNers look at food blogs with a very depressing robotic
             | expectation.
        
               | rawoke083600 wrote:
               | How is picking the one with the longest word count the
               | best ??
        
           | Andys wrote:
           | I am sorry, but I believe you are mistaken. Recipe sharing
           | worked one way for all of history until it became profitable
           | to game the search engines by adding story-like content.
        
             | yunohn wrote:
             | Could you source anything that proves this? I've always
             | seen personalised stories with recipes, save for barebones
             | websites that are aggregators and not personal blogs. Maybe
             | consider food writing the same as technical writing? Nobody
             | wants to read a dev blog with just snippets of code, they
             | want the story too!
        
               | rawoke083600 wrote:
               | imagine stackoverflow came with a backstory when you
               | googled "javascript http post" ! Same with "best brownies
               | recipe"
        
               | yunohn wrote:
               | There are lots of recipe aggregators that are similar to
               | your stackoverflow needs. You should compare a dev blog
               | post to a food blog.
        
               | rawoke083600 wrote:
               | @yunohn ? You think ppl searching for 'food blog stories
               | outweighs' the people searching for food recipes?
               | 
               | Im honesty asking since. In my mind (i could very well be
               | wrong). I. would think there are more ppl interested in
               | 'how to make Great brownies' , then there are ppl
               | searching for 'the backstory of the great brownie recipe'
               | ?
               | 
               | Yet the results i get from my searches are more inline
               | with if i searched for backstory of recipes.
               | 
               | Hell maybe im just searching with the wrong keywords ??
        
               | yunohn wrote:
               | No, I'm saying Google doesn't make the internet. Content
               | creators want to add their own story and vibe to a simple
               | recipe. You are free to use recipe aggregators that
               | don't, or make your own content?
        
             | rawoke083600 wrote:
             | This !
        
           | equalsione wrote:
           | I _think_ OP is referring to the fact that most sites are
           | forced into writing really long form posts because the format
           | is "encouraged" by Google.
           | 
           | I don't know the ins and outs but my understanding is that if
           | you don't follow the Google format then you recipe drops way
           | down in Google search results.
        
             | mikro2nd wrote:
             | No, they're forced into long form posts because recipes
             | _cannot be copyrighted_. By adding a story you get
             | something with copy rights.
        
               | Kbelicius wrote:
               | IANAL but wouldn't you just get a copyright on the story
               | and somebody could still extract all the necessary
               | information for preparing the meal and publish it as a
               | simple recipe?
        
               | mikro2nd wrote:
               | IANAL either, but I believe that, yes, you could do just
               | that. Of course you'd not have any copyright... :)
               | 
               | TBH I'm not entirely clear why the issue is so important
               | to the people who publish these things, but clearly _it
               | is_!
        
               | rchaud wrote:
               | Why would they care about copyright? The sites these
               | recipes sit on are ad-funded. Copyright would matter if
               | they were selling these as books, not for free online
               | where anybody can copy it, save it as a PDF etc.
        
           | bspammer wrote:
           | Google created the incentives that led to the current state
           | of recipe pages.
        
         | [deleted]
        
         | Shorel wrote:
         | And with the possibility of having the measures in metric.
         | 
         | Otherwise, it is almost useless for most of the world.
        
           | rawoke083600 wrote:
           | Exactly ! I feel double mad when reading metrics/measurements
           | in non metric format
           | 
           | 1) Im mad cause now i need to google a convert query and
           | author assumes the world is only full of U.S.A ppl
           | 
           | 2) Mad cause I should know approximate conversion value,
           | since I *think/claim" to be not a stupid person.
           | 
           | Both of the are usually false, in my case at least
        
           | addandsubtract wrote:
           | I like how you said "possibility", as if 3/8th of a cup
           | wasn't a good enough measurement.
        
             | rawoke083600 wrote:
             | Lol cant tell if you serious or trying to get my temper up
             | to 75 Farhenheit :p
        
       | TruthWillHurt wrote:
       | We don't need an update. We need a rollback.
        
         | emptyparadise wrote:
         | We need to roll back a lot more than just Google.
        
         | [deleted]
        
       | emptyparadise wrote:
       | It got so bad that I'm actually taking my own notes on topics
       | again and trying to build up a personal knowledge database. Maybe
       | it's not such a bad thing...
        
         | powerhour wrote:
         | A tool that records the sites you visit and makes their content
         | searchable locally would be pretty nifty. It'd be a MITM, which
         | isn't awesome, but if it's not a managed service that might not
         | be so bad.
        
           | plonk wrote:
           | You'd need something like RSS to only download the useful
           | contents. You could probably same a few forums' contents on a
           | 500GB SSD if you stuck to text and used an efficient format.
        
         | devX3 wrote:
         | I'm unsure if I could keep up with something like this with my
         | daily workload/workflow where I already have to document so
         | much.
        
         | jonasdegendt wrote:
         | Make sure to go full circle by publishing your notes on a blog
         | and start ranking!
        
           | emptyparadise wrote:
           | I bet I could make it to the front page of HN if I blogged
           | about my notes on taking notes. Everyone loves that sort of
           | thing.
        
             | TOMDM wrote:
             | HN is more of a notes of writing software for taking notes,
             | but hey I'm sure people here would be happy to branch out.
        
               | emptyparadise wrote:
               | I don't know, articles about zettelkasten get a lot of
               | love: https://hn.algolia.com/?q=zettelkasten
        
         | spaceman_2020 wrote:
         | I have to append site:reddit.com before most queries now.
         | 
         | Health and medical queries are the worst. The top results
         | literally have the same generic content.
        
           | plonk wrote:
           | You don't want medical advice from reddit though. At least
           | the university websites are trustworthy enough to decide if
           | you need to see a doctor.
           | 
           | Maybe a no-filler health info website could be viable if it
           | spread by word of mouth and not via Google. After a while it
           | should become well-ranked on Google anyway, like Wikipedia or
           | StackOverflow. Getting it to that point is a chicken-and-egg
           | problem though.
        
       | mib32 wrote:
       | I think it's quite clear: when I search for something, what I
       | want to see, it's people arguing with each other on my topic of
       | search, and I want to read their various arguments, and make my
       | decision.
       | 
       | This is why I like HN and artisan forums so much, or even Reddit.
       | 
       | Google could do just one thing - prioritize giving out the
       | discussions of real people. But they just don't wanna do it
       | apparently
        
       | potamic wrote:
       | The last couple of years have seen renewed interest in the search
       | space and a lot of new comers in the market targeting the content
       | search vacuum left behind by Google. Looks like they are finally
       | waking up to the threat and ramping up their public relations.
       | Too late Google, too late. Your veiled, corporate attempt at
       | building a narrative around your product is not going to work. I
       | have burnt many a neuron over the years using your product over
       | and acquired an unrelenting PTSD from you. Thankfully I have
       | found a cure and can breakup with you finally. You have a good
       | one.
        
         | aembleton wrote:
         | You've acquired PTSD from using Google search? Did you ever use
         | Yahoo search?
        
       | iamjbn wrote:
       | Just wait until cheap to write GPT3 articles learn SEO techniques
       | inherently and bombard the internet suppressing human writers in
       | the spam ocean. At https://aquila.network we're always thinking
       | of this scenario.
        
         | rchaud wrote:
         | Quora annswers basically read like GPT-3 if it were trained
         | exclusively on recipe websites.
        
         | ThinkingGuy wrote:
         | Reminds me of
         | 
         | https://xkcd.com/810/
        
       | paxys wrote:
       | I expect these changes will lead to a brief period where the
       | quality of search results will get better, but then will be
       | quickly reversed engineered and gamed by "SEO experts" bringing
       | us right back to where we are. This is a fight Google simply
       | cannot win.
        
       | superkuh wrote:
       | Google Search only ever returns <400 results. Never any more.
       | Apparently Google considers this fine. So, RIP Google Search
       | 1998-2019, apparently.
       | 
       | If google search really wants to improve results all they
       | actually have to do is let people _see_ the results instead of
       | hiding them. 400 results is _not_ enough.
        
       | nixcraft wrote:
       | >Better ranking of original, quality content
       | 
       | Hah. Just another day, someone sent me this link[1] which took
       | images and text from my page[2] for the Google query "linux check
       | disk space". Here is the thing my page doesn't even appear on
       | Google. The ripped page points to the source[2] and has a link
       | back to the original images. These scammers know how to game
       | Google with their AI-driven sites, and they adopt it faster than
       | Google rolling out new changes. I hope Google fix this issue.
       | 
       | [1] Spam/scam page - http://blog.imm.cnr.it/content/linux-check-
       | disk-space-comman...
       | 
       | [2] Original my page published on 2016-01-23 -
       | https://www.cyberciti.biz/faq/linux-check-disk-space-command...
       | 
       | [3] Google search query -
       | https://www.google.com/search?q=linux+check+disk+space
        
         | stevewatson301 wrote:
         | DMCA notices are unpopular with the crowd here, but when your
         | content is plagiarized and other people are profiting off of
         | your work, I'd recommend the following workflow:
         | 
         | * Use Copyscape and perform automated plagiarized content
         | detection.
         | 
         | * Automate the sending of DMCA notices to Google and the
         | website host (using captcha solving services, if necessary).
        
           | account42 wrote:
           | Yeah no, automated DMCA notices should never be a thing. The
           | shoot first ask questions later mechanic of DMCA notices is
           | bad enough but at least have the decency to verify the claims
           | you are making.
        
           | mianos wrote:
           | As lame as it is, it's not really plagiarism when there is
           | attribution, even if it is non obviously that URL at the top
           | of the page.
        
             | janosdebugs wrote:
             | Attribution does not exempt an author from the need to get
             | permission. Baring a few edge cases, such as fair use, a
             | copying without permission is still a copyright violation,
             | attribution or not.
        
             | JW_00000 wrote:
             | Plagiarism is not the same as copyright infringement.
             | 
             | "Plagiarism" is not a legal thing: it's not a crime
             | codified in law and doesn't appear in laws [1]. Instead,
             | usually it's a violation of some internal code, e.g. a
             | school's or newspaper's policy of integrity. As you say
             | indeed, usually these policies only consider something
             | plagiarism if there is a lack of (clear) attribution.
             | 
             | However copyright is encoded in law and copyright
             | infringement is a crime. The linked page clearly violates
             | the copyright of OP.
             | 
             | [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plagiarism#Legal_aspects
        
         | yrro wrote:
         | My Google experience would be improved immeasurably if there
         | was a way for me to block domains after I decide I never want
         | to see them in my search results again.
        
           | stevewatson301 wrote:
           | https://github.com/iorate/ublacklist
        
             | yrro wrote:
             | That looks great, thanks. Installing it now!
             | 
             | I've been burned in the past by relying on extensions like
             | these, which only work until Google change their HTML and
             | then the extension author is (understandably) burned out
             | and doesn't update the extension, and eventually I just
             | give up and uninstall it... I'd be a lot happier if this
             | was a core Google Search feature. But I understand that
             | Google don't make money by blocking their (paying)
             | customers (spammers who run ads) from their search results.
        
           | blackshaw wrote:
           | Google used to have this feature. Why did they remove it?
        
             | dazc wrote:
             | Because it was gamed.
        
               | planb wrote:
               | Then they should have simply ignored the signal, not
               | canned the feature
        
           | ComodoHacker wrote:
           | You mean allow people to block Google properties in search?
           | No way I guess.
        
           | ctrlmeta wrote:
           | Searching for Python API docs and getting w3schools and
           | geeksforgeeks results is frustrating. Is there a solution to
           | this problem? Maybe even a browser extension?
        
             | yrro wrote:
             | That one's easy if you use duckduckgo.
             | 
             | !py urlunsplit
             | 
             | redirects you to:
             | 
             | https://docs.python.org/3/search.html?q=urlunsplit
        
             | sitkack wrote:
             | If you are searching for docs, then https://devdocs.io/
             | might be better than a regular search engine.
        
           | bluecalm wrote:
           | Letting you blacklist a site is one thing. They could improve
           | upon it by letting people downvote/upvote pages and then
           | using their extensive information vault to decide who is
           | somewhat reputable or just similar to you.
           | 
           | I mean, I am 40 years old programmer/entrepreneur interested
           | in sports and traditional board and card games. I like nice
           | restaurants and hotels and even sometimes write Google
           | reviews on them. I have my Gmail account since the beginning
           | and I am paying YouTube and Google services customer. I am
           | using Google phones since the Nexus. Google knows who I am,
           | what I like, where I visit. It's pretty good at estimating
           | revenue of my company. What about using the info for
           | something useful for once and just show me pages people like
           | me liked and don't show me pages people like me think are
           | spam/scam? Please?
        
             | Mordisquitos wrote:
             | That may sound promising on paper, but I give it at most 6
             | months before an up/downvote manipulation SEO industry
             | emerges and starts destroying any burgeoning improvements
             | in the quality of search results.
        
               | headsoup wrote:
               | Not to mention anything even slightly political or
               | divisive in nature will quickly become chaos.
        
           | null_object wrote:
           | Another poster has already suggested `uBlacklist` so I won't
           | waste bandwidth by repeating the link, but I want to
           | underline the utility of this extension, because it's
           | _transformed_ my experience of using Google search for code
           | problems.
           | 
           | Before using this, I was finding the first page of my search
           | results were overwhelmed with StackOverflow-scrapers, which
           | returned SO answers reformatted into some sort of garbage and
           | unreadable 'blog-post'.
           | 
           | Nowadays, after blocking twenty/thirty/fifty(?) of these
           | sites, I get to where I want as fast as I did 10 years ago.
        
             | nicbou wrote:
             | You can also use it to block paywalled and clickbait
             | content. For example, you can safely ignore anything from
             | cnet.com or digitaltrends.com. There's a few niche-specific
             | sites in my blocklist.
        
             | nextaccountic wrote:
             | Could you share the url list?
        
               | NoMAD76 wrote:
               | Also you can use this for uBlock https://letsblock.it
        
               | nextaccountic wrote:
               | What's the difference from letblockit to ublacklist? Is
               | letblockit affiliated to ublock origin in some way?
        
               | NoMAD76 wrote:
               | Don't think they are affiliated, it's just something that
               | I mainly use as a companion for uBlock to help me quickly
               | generate filters etc.
        
               | hurflmurfl wrote:
               | There's a public ruleset for this:
               | https://github.com/arosh/ublacklist-stackoverflow-
               | translatio...
        
               | nextaccountic wrote:
               | Nice!
               | 
               | If anyone want to share other such lists, however
               | subjective, I would be grateful
               | 
               | edit: found another one,
               | https://github.com/arosh/ublacklist-github-translation
        
           | ape4 wrote:
           | Of course, not the same but the Google News thing on Android
           | lets you say you're not interested in this suggestion or
           | don't show me this news source again.
        
         | xthestreams wrote:
         | cnr.it is a domain which belongs to the Italian Research
         | Council, and that subdomain seems to be a blog by the Institute
         | of Microelectronics and Microsystems.
         | 
         | These are not scammers, it's probably an amateur researcher
         | which published that information in a blog which is usually
         | read by no-one. Probably it wasn't even meant to be public. But
         | because of the prestige of the domain, it becomes first in
         | relevant searches.
         | 
         | If you track down the author and send him a quick mail, I'm
         | 100% sure they'll help.
         | 
         | I've worked at CNR.
        
           | raverbashing wrote:
           | Correct, it looks more like a page containing useful info for
           | their users/students etc
           | 
           | There are plenty of scam pages, but specifically this one
           | doesn't look like it
        
           | sph wrote:
           | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Research_Council_(Ita.
           | ..
        
           | pyb wrote:
           | Still, it appears someone at CNR copy-pasted someone else's
           | blog and published it as their own.
        
             | oefrha wrote:
             | No, the very first thing in the blog post is a link to the
             | original, so it's highly unlikely they wanted to pretend to
             | be the author.
             | 
             | More like someone who didn't care much about copyright or
             | license decided to back up information they found useful in
             | their personal blog.
        
               | jraph wrote:
               | Honestly, a researcher should know better to not
               | plagiarize or to give attribution better than that. This
               | is core in their job. If they do exactly this in their
               | papers, it's going to be bad for them and they know it.
               | 
               | It's good they linked to the original post and that the
               | link is the first thing we see, but nothing says that
               | it's the source, and no paragraph explains that the
               | content comes from elsewhere.
               | 
               | I also don't see why the content should be copy-pasted
               | instead of just a link.
               | 
               | I see no malicious intents, it's probably done in good
               | faith, but meh.
               | 
               | To the author: did you try to reach out? I'm sure
               | something can be done about it if it bothers you. I
               | expect the author of this copy to be receptive.
        
               | nkrisc wrote:
               | > I also don't see why the content should be copy-pasted
               | instead of just a link.
               | 
               | Quite possibly an easy way to preserve the content in
               | case the original goes offline and to share it with
               | colleagues. Perhaps they wanted to link to it from some
               | long-lived or even printed material. Not saying it's the
               | best way to do so, but it's plausible and not malicious.
        
               | jraph wrote:
               | It's plausible and not malicious, understandable too, but
               | it's not hard to say it in a sentence at the beginning of
               | the post.
               | 
               | This is a public blog, not some internal website.
               | 
               | Anyway, my previous comment probably sounds harsh because
               | it is the way I wrote it (because I previously worked in
               | a research lab, so I kinda feel disappointed), but I
               | still consider this a minor fuck up and it happens to
               | everyone, for sure.
        
               | pyb wrote:
               | That's utterly illegal though
        
           | rchaud wrote:
           | > it's probably an amateur researcher which published that
           | information in a blog which is usually read by no-one.
           | 
           | Ah, but this is the new method of SEO trickery and credential
           | scamming. Publishing a 'guest post' on a high-ranking blog
           | subdomain of a trusted instititution. There was a story of
           | someone doing this on Harvard University's blogs, which I
           | can't find right now.
           | 
           | But I found something even better. An actual UpWork posting
           | promising to publish your crap on Chapman.edu's university
           | blog:
           | 
           | https://www.upwork.com/services/product/5-high-da-
           | dofollow-g...
        
         | [deleted]
        
         | layer8 wrote:
         | FWIF, I get the original page as the first search result (and
         | [0] as a "featured snippet" above it), and the crn.it page only
         | as the third.
         | 
         | [0] https://opensource.com/article/18/7/how-check-free-disk-
         | spac...
        
         | progre wrote:
         | The traditional response when someone hotlinks your images is
         | to goatse them.
        
           | jraph wrote:
           | This would be lame, here I'm sure the person who reposted
           | this content is not malicious. A quick mail is nicer and less
           | work.
           | 
           | Sure, goatse people if they refuse to observe your requests
           | if you feel like it.
        
         | meltedcapacitor wrote:
         | Maybe the bootleg page could be a source of inspiration?
         | 
         | It has a garbage/content ratio of 32 (the browser downloads 32
         | bytes for every byte of content) while the original page has a
         | 400 ratio (the browser downloads 400 bytes for every byte of
         | content). It's borderline denial of service attack against the
         | visitor.
         | 
         | The original also has a slow aggressive cookie box that is
         | unnecessary as visitors can be spied on using server logs, no
         | need to have cookies for the spy infrastructure. The bootleg
         | has no cookie box (though does set a couple of gratuitous
         | cookies, and does load one gratuitous googleanalytics.js, so
         | maybe it does the right thing in a non-compliant way).
         | 
         | Maybe all these factor make the original page look "less good"
         | to google quality ranking? (which would be ironic given
         | Google's general leadership of the Orgy of Waste school of web
         | design.) Also if google starts ranking such pages up they may
         | expose themselves to class action lawsuits as users could ask
         | for a refund for the power, hardware and telecom bills incurred
         | in being lead to load them?
        
           | gregw134 wrote:
           | Plus, the original has an excessive amount of ads. I'm not
           | surprised Google is ranking the other page higher.
        
           | feanaro wrote:
           | > Also if google starts ranking such pages up they may expose
           | themselves to class action lawsuits as users could ask for a
           | refund for the power, hardware and telecom bills incurred in
           | being lead to load them?
           | 
           | Sorry, but this is completely insane. Search engines should
           | most certainly and definitely not ever be liable for linking
           | to original sources for such a stupid reason. This American
           | pro-litigious attitude has to stop.
        
             | foota wrote:
             | Americans aren't the ones forcing crazy things on internet
             | companies these days.
        
               | piva00 wrote:
               | No, they are the ones allowing companies become such
               | behemoths that other sovereign governments have to step
               | in and rule over to keep some kind of data privacy for
               | their citizens.
        
           | jiggywiggy wrote:
           | To be fair, even though littered with ads the bootleg is
           | indeed more pleasant. Bootleg the bootlegger.
        
             | dash2 wrote:
             | I count one advert on the original, and the page loaded
             | instantly for me on my 10 year old laptop. What am I
             | missing?
        
             | naijaboiler wrote:
             | I agree. The bootlegged version is more inviting to read.
        
           | hrdwdmrbl wrote:
           | > Orgy of Waste school of web design
           | 
           | What is this referring to?
        
             | cerved wrote:
             | Crappy angular apps
        
           | beastman82 wrote:
           | You had a great argument until the last sentence
        
         | SNlMyhFioa wrote:
         | I'm seeing your page above the "spam/scam" page.
         | #2 cyberciti.biz       #3 cnr.it
        
         | [deleted]
        
       | antirez wrote:
       | Great content is often found in pages without their ADs. I don't
       | buy it: they will hardly leave so many dollars on the table.
        
       | uncomputation wrote:
       | > With this update, you'll see more results with unique,
       | authentic information, so you're more likely to read something
       | you haven't seen before.
       | 
       | This phrasing sets off a little alarm in the back of my brain.
       | Overall, I agree with the intent of the update and I think Google
       | is maybe internally realizing that their questionable search
       | quality combined with legitimate and privacy-focused competitors
       | (DDG, Neeva [1]) could turn into a serious and existential threat
       | to them.
       | 
       | That said, this is not quite the issue a lot of people have with
       | Google search results. For me, when I search a movie for reviews,
       | it's not that I want _new_ reviews to show up from smaller sites.
       | It's that I don't want the whole screen filled with Google's own
       | little special sideshow for movie reviews. I can easily see this
       | becoming even more frustrating actually if I search for "x
       | reviews" and rather than get the usual Rotten Tomatoes, IMDB,
       | newspaper reviews, I get RandomGuy.com. If I want RandomGuy.com,
       | that is actually what a social media-esque site like Rotten
       | Tomatoes or Letterboxd is for, not a search engine.
       | 
       | Hopefully this will be what we want it to be and not, for
       | example, the TikTok-ization of Google search results, constantly
       | and algorithmically showing you something "new."
       | 
       | [1]: <rant> That said, the game is still very much for the taking
       | and no one is still able to easily answer one of my most common
       | queries for work: "python regex." Seriously, it feels like a
       | battle to get a simple example showing how to use groups/named
       | groups to extract specific information. I don't want a reference
       | guide to common RegEx wildcards, I already know about \d and +! I
       | don't want a toy example showing how to use RegEx for seeing if
       | "rain" is in "The cat is in the rain" (that's using a hammer to
       | kill a fly - you would just use "if rain in string" for example).
       | I want a helpful and succinct guide on the specifics of Python's
       | RegEx so I can stop fiddling with it ASAP! </rant>
        
       | weystrom wrote:
       | I wish they'd just un-screw the page ranking algorithm. The
       | quality of search has been steadily going down for quite a while
       | now due to spam getting better and better at SEO.
       | 
       | I'm hopeful for this feature, but I'm not sure how scalable it
       | can prove to be, to help manually rank pages for myriad of
       | topics.
        
       | davidkuennen wrote:
       | It's baffling to me that if you search for "Best xxx", you get
       | hundreds of pages only filled with paid ads as top products. How
       | is any normal person able to make informed decisions like this.
        
       | [deleted]
        
       | alecco wrote:
       | I don't buy it. Google search of basic programming concepts give
       | almost always as top results sites like geeksforgeeks and other
       | Indian proto-spam sites with very obnoxious sign-up floats
       | covering up everything, while the content is almost copy pasted
       | from docs or other sites. Google rarely gives you the official
       | documentation or tutorials at the top. You have to restrict with
       | site: (to the point I have "search engines" doing just that
       | "site:").
       | 
       | It seems there's a new one I haven't seen before called
       | appdividend blog, from India too. And another one "DelftStack",
       | allegedly from Netherlands (tweets from 2019 and weird lack of
       | info). programiz, from Nepal (you have to dig to find it).
       | 
       | What should these search pages give, in order: Official
       | documentation, then Stack Exchange and similar, then real
       | people's blogs, and at the very bottom on page 25 these spammy
       | copy-n-paste sites/blogs.
       | 
       | Google is full of developers, so they have to know about this but
       | for some reason the company does nothing about it. Almost like
       | the company is fully driven by ad revenue and doesn't want users
       | to find actual content.
        
         | infinityio wrote:
         | It is a paid service, so probably not for everyone, but have
         | you tried Kagi? It lets you 'pin' specific sites to the top,
         | rank sites higher, rank sites lower, or block them entirely
        
       | akdor1154 wrote:
       | Cool, so will the relevant wiki page, which is almost certainly
       | both the most linked to and most desired page for almost all
       | "thing" searches, go back to being result #1 instead of buried
       | under content farms, copyspam, and Medium trash?
        
         | dannyw wrote:
         | Wikipedia doesn't run AdSense.
         | 
         | Content farms run AdSense.
         | 
         | Google algo updates have revenue as one of the core metrics.
        
           | pas wrote:
           | > Google algo updates have revenue as one of the core
           | metrics.
           | 
           | While this is almost trivially true based on what we know of
           | (the world, big tech companies, Google in particular, etc),
           | do we have direct supporting evidence for this?
        
           | gregw134 wrote:
           | This is just completely untrue.
        
             | [deleted]
        
         | spaceman_2020 wrote:
         | Maybe we'll finally get recipe pages where the recipe isn't
         | buried under 2000 words of drivel just to bump the SEO score
        
           | gempir wrote:
           | Bread recipe
           | 
           | Well you see already in ancient rome they made bread this
           | way...............
           | 
           | [2 pages of story time]
           | 
           | AD
           | 
           | AD
           | 
           | AD
           | 
           | Ingredients separated by more Ads
        
         | [deleted]
        
         | tasuki wrote:
         | Why not search Wikipedia directly?
        
       | pushkine wrote:
       | Remember when Facebook was at its peak around 2014 (innovation,
       | popularity) then announced radical changes on its feed algorithm
       | in like 2016 to prioritize content made by friends? ...
        
       | mupuff1234 wrote:
       | Google used to have the ability to search for "discussions", no
       | idea why they removed that.
       | 
       | Nowadays I just append "site:reddit" to most of my queries
       | (although I'm sure there's more and more paid/fake posts there as
       | well)
        
         | visarga wrote:
         | I'd like more search filters like that, they should be
         | composable with logic expressions. For example, "forums" or
         | "eu" (all EU national domains, so you can find a product that
         | is easy to ship), but you could extend it with page categories
         | like "reviews", "recipes", "python", "js", "in/out_top_1m",
         | "blogs", not to mention verticals like "shopping", "hotels",
         | "tickets".
         | 
         | Especially for the shopping category Google dropped the ball.
         | When I am, wallet in hand, ready to buy a widget, why doesn't
         | it do the best to help me find it? Isn't that the essence of
         | search? Or just to search again and show more ads?
         | 
         | Such a failure of experience to try to use Google. Behaves like
         | the doctor who secretly wants people to be sick so he can have
         | more business.
         | 
         | But the writing is on the wall. Dialogue based search agents
         | are coming, snippet based search is on the way out. The
         | language models become better and better, they can even do sub-
         | searches. The trend towards natural language based search is
         | being accelerated by the mobile phones who lack proper
         | keyboards and large screens.
        
       | [deleted]
        
       | account42 wrote:
       | Using Corporate Memphis-style hero image for an article about
       | "content by people, for people" has got to be someone at google
       | trolling us. There is no way they can be this tone deaf.
        
         | TOMDM wrote:
         | This was my first thought too.
         | 
         | C'mon Google put Imagen to work, I'm so over this art style.
        
           | robotnikman wrote:
           | Same, and with just about every tech corp using it, it gets
           | old rather quick.
        
       | nyxtom wrote:
       | The entire revenue model for Google is not incentivized to rank
       | quality content and what you are looking for. Low quality content
       | is filled with ads. As an alternative to this, I've been using
       | Kagi (https://kagi.com/) for a while and I love it
        
       | firasd wrote:
       | I'm not sure this whole drive towards 'original content' makes
       | sense. It encourages people to make long rambling pages that
       | don't get to the point
       | 
       | In fact it seems like Google worked better when wikipedia was
       | almost always the first result on various topics
       | 
       | What I mean by rambling is if you type something like "types of
       | oranges" and suddenly land on a page where some dude is clearly
       | just filling up paragraphs for google like "so you want to learn
       | about oranges? an orange is a great type of fruit. here's a bunch
       | of text about oranges being described in historic literature"
        
         | MicolashKyoka wrote:
         | An AI trained on the body of verified human knowledge that
         | understands natural language could replace a good deal of the
         | googling done by people.
         | 
         | In an ideal world, such an endeavor would be supported by
         | governments all around the world (or a single "Earth
         | government"), with yearly updates to keep up with the state of
         | the art.
        
         | darkwater wrote:
         | You have just described the typical content-farm page created
         | to game Google. I hope this update is going to lower the
         | ranking of those pages (pages that usually have an ad every
         | paragraph or more).
        
           | hattmall wrote:
           | Every site needs a commercialization score and a way to
           | filter them down. Number of ads should be a dead give away,
           | but that's antithetical to Google's business.
        
             | darkwater wrote:
             | Yeah, I was going to suggest the same: farm-factory sites
             | are easily identifiable by the number of Ads, especially on
             | the doubleclick.net domain. But maybe for Google in the
             | long-run would be a net positive to ban those sites anyway,
             | due to better "organic" results and how people will see
             | Google results.
        
         | P5fRxh5kUvp2th wrote:
         | yes, yes, and yes!
         | 
         | I've started just closing the tab. I don't give a shit that a
         | certain country planted oranges and it gave them naval
         | superiority, I want to know what types of oranges there are!
        
         | jccalhoun wrote:
         | I hadn't thought that the reason they do this is to appear to
         | have original content. It seems like distinguishing between the
         | original source of information and a site that has a bunch of
         | filler "original content" but just exists to
         | republish/plagiarize some other site's content must be a
         | difficult problem to solve.
        
         | BillinghamJ wrote:
         | My impression is that this update is specifically about
         | deranking those types of pages
        
         | medion wrote:
         | Encourages people to make long rambling pages which don't get
         | to the point? Ever seen YouTube, it's exactly the same. 10-11+
         | min videos saying almost nothing because it's the most
         | lucrative length. The internet of today is just everyone gaming
         | everything for a dollar.
        
           | addandsubtract wrote:
           | At least Youtube has a timeline (with sometimes even
           | chapters) that let you jump ahead. The thumbnails are also a
           | good indication on what type of content you can expect from a
           | video.
        
             | ciupicri wrote:
             | Most YouTube junk does not even have a proper meaningful
             | description, just some buzzwords for SEO.
        
             | nichos wrote:
             | Web pages have a timeline in the form of a scroll bar on
             | the right
        
               | dash2 wrote:
               | Actually that's a cool idea, put a graph on the scroll
               | bar which shows where most people spent their time, same
               | as the Youtube widget.
        
               | addandsubtract wrote:
               | Medium kinda does something like this by highlighting the
               | most shared part. Alternatively, you can also use AI to
               | summarize the text on web pages.
        
           | rchaud wrote:
           | In the case of Youtube, the video thumbnail itself is usually
           | a strong enough signal as to whether it's worth watching.
           | 
           | Enormous swathes of the platform are filled with gossip
           | channels (politics, crypto, stonks, celebrities, music)
           | hosted by clout chasers desperate to be seen as authorities
           | on that topic.
           | 
           | Of course there can be good content inside of these
           | categories, but you can generally tell which channels are
           | "optimized for engagement", i.e. run like a business, and
           | those are more amateurish and perhaps more authentic.
        
         | dalbasal wrote:
         | The dissonance is between Google's native perception and
         | external reality:
         | 
         |  _reality 1_ : The www exists. Google indexes it, analyzes it
         | and delivers it to users. Users like certain things, like
         | original content.
         | 
         |  _reality 2_ : Google's ranking policies/algorithms influence
         | the web. The "original content" that exists in a world without
         | Google is different to the content that exists in a world where
         | Google ranks such web pages more highly.
         | 
         | Google refuse to see or present themselves in the role that
         | they actually occupy. They avoid thinking of the search
         | algorithm as encouraging or discouraging anything. It's just
         | analyzing.
         | 
         | On youtube, This mindset is even more loopy, because on youtube
         | they actually _own_ the platform. The recommendation engine or
         | whatnot implements what is clearly a new policy, Youtube
         | pretends that there was no policy to change in the first place.
        
           | nonethewiser wrote:
           | Goodharts law
        
           | jwie wrote:
           | I think it's more that nobody knows the policy. It's all ML
           | changes few people understand or can even communicate. I
           | don't expect google would explain if they knew how it worked,
           | but they also cannot explain how their technology works.
        
           | jasode wrote:
           | _> Google refuse to see or present themselves in the role
           | that they actually occupy. They avoid thinking of the search
           | algorithm as encouraging or discouraging anything. It's just
           | analyzing._
           | 
           | Can you clarify what you mean by this?
           | 
           | As an outside observer, it seems that Google recognizes that
           | their search engine does have a "Heisenberg" effect akin to
           | _" measurements of certain systems cannot be made without
           | affecting the system"_
           | 
           | E.g. the Google search ranking causes the rise of content
           | farms. Google then fights back with a new revision to the
           | algorithm to downrank them. That constant arms race between
           | various blackhat SEO and Google's new algorithms was
           | commented on many times by Matt Cutts (Google former head of
           | search quality): https://hn.algolia.com/?q=matt+cutts
           | 
           | Another example is the RapGenius punishment by Google to
           | discourage content that tries to game the algorithm: https://
           | www.google.com/search?q=rapgenius+penalty+google+ran...
           | 
           | Google often makes manual human intervention e.g. M Cutts
           | team telling HN they're looking into RapGenius SEO hack:
           | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6956658
           | 
           | Are those are not examples of Google understanding its effect
           | on internet content that tries to game their algorithm?
           | 
           | I think the issue is that Google's algorithm isn't perfect --
           | and therefore it appears like they don't discourage bad
           | content.
        
             | dalbasal wrote:
             | OK..
             | 
             | In a sense, I am overstating. Having an anti-spam team is
             | obviously a recognition that SEO/Spam exists and that
             | Google is trying to discourage or mitigate.
             | 
             | But Google is well beyond just attracting spam. Success in
             | Google search rankings is, for many sites, the better part
             | of online success. If Google ranks needlessly wordy recipes
             | more highly than concise & useful recipes... then wordy
             | recipes get _written_. It 's not about ranking recipes
             | anymore... it's about the effects google has on recipes.
             | The recipes get _written_ in a wordy fashion, because of
             | the ranking system... not just ranked because of the
             | writing style. Google is _dictating_ the nature of online
             | recipes with their rankings.
             | 
             | A few years back, Google made changes to youtube's
             | recommendation engine in a way that really "encourages"
             | frequent, regular videos. Viral hits became much less
             | common. The result has been to send many professional
             | youtubers into a frantic grind. There's no point in taking
             | time with a video, or trying weird ideas. It won't go viral
             | anyway. A week off or a couple of flops is harshly
             | punished. There are tens of thousands of these youtubers,
             | basically small businesses.
             | 
             | There's never any reckoning with 2nd order effects. It's
             | always communicated as it is here. I believe this is how
             | Google execs actually think about the issues. As a quasi-
             | spam problem to be mitigated with the next "helpful content
             | update."
        
               | jasode wrote:
               | _> There's never any reckoning with 2nd order effects. _
               | 
               | Can you articulate what _concrete actions_ Google could
               | take that would address these 2nd order effects?
               | 
               |  _> , Google made changes to youtube's recommendation
               | engine in a way that really "encourages" frequent,
               | regular videos. [...] A week off or a couple of flops is
               | harshly punished._
               | 
               | I've seen this repeated many times (especially from
               | Youtubers making videos about "burnout") but the analysis
               | about cause & effect seems incomplete. As one
               | counterpoint, Ben Krasnow "Applied Science" channel
               | _slowed down_ from weekly uploads to a video every few
               | months and yet his views and subscribers went _up_ not
               | down: https://www.youtube.com/c/AppliedScience/videos
               | 
               | Another yt channel that had a year between uploads and
               | the views _went up_ : https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCX
               | 7katl3DVmch4D7LSvqbVQ/vid...
               | 
               | My pet theory on the contradictory anecdotes: the
               | Youtubers making videos on a topic with _lots of
               | competition from other Youtubers uploading every week_ --
               | such as fast fashion clothes shopping -- are the ones
               | that seem to suffer if they slow down. E.g.:
               | https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=zara+haul
               | 
               | However, if you're making videos in niche topics with
               | originality (maybe "weird ideas" as you put it), you
               | won't be penalized by infrequent uploads. Many examples
               | including Technology Connections, Applied Science, etc
               | 
               | So a different conclusion can be reached... if one makes
               | a _high quality_ videos, one can even upload just once a
               | year and the Youtube algorithm won 't penalize you.
        
               | michaelt wrote:
               | I suspect some of the contradiction comes from whether
               | you're measuring _views per video_ or _ad revenue per
               | month_.
               | 
               | If one youtuber produced a 32-minute video per month and
               | got 500,000 views while another produced eight 4-minute
               | videos per month and averaged 200,000 views per video,
               | who do you suppose gets the most ad money? I'd wager the
               | latter.
        
         | antidnan wrote:
         | This is especially annoying with recipes. There's usually a
         | massive backstory that takes up 90% of the page. Some recipe
         | websites even post a button to jump directly to the recipe, at
         | least they're self-aware.
        
           | fatherzine wrote:
           | I used to search for recipes on the Internet. The spam became
           | unbearable. Then I spent $30 on a cookbook, one recipe per
           | page. Very happy with the outcome. Simple, fast, effective:
           | it just works.
           | 
           | Happiness meta-rule: Throw electronics away, use analog
           | equivalents instead.
        
         | amarant wrote:
         | I think there's a different driving factor that. I've heard of
         | a metric that is how long you spend on a given URL. Not sure
         | how they gather that data, probably only gathered from Chrome
         | users.
         | 
         | Anyway, from what I've heard, that's the reason recipe sites
         | have started posting 4 pages of drivel about the dish before
         | getting to the actual recipe.
         | 
         | Or so I've heard, I don't really have any good sources for
         | this, could just be hearsay
        
           | smoe wrote:
           | A couple of months ago I read on various SEO blogs (they all
           | seem to mostly copy and paste each other with little original
           | research) that these days it is less about keywords and
           | technical things like semantic html, but if and how long
           | people engage with the search result.
           | 
           | E.g. if a link to your page is shown to the user in search
           | and they don't click or they return to search page too
           | quickly, Google sees this as a signal that the result was not
           | helpful.
        
             | stonemetal12 wrote:
             | I guess that means we can use adds and tracking against
             | itself. Any time you go to a webpage that is ad heavy
             | quickly leave. Over time they get ranked down until they
             | shape up or die.
        
             | naravara wrote:
             | If it's based on length of engagement this does explain the
             | trend towards verbosity I've noticed. I assumed the long
             | leading paragraphs and introduction and background sections
             | were just excuses to keep dropping the keywords in, but I
             | guess it's to make me have to spend a lot of time reading
             | and scrolling to get to the meat of the answer.
        
           | wodenokoto wrote:
           | > probably only gathered from Chrome users.
           | 
           | Or, Google Analytics. Or Google ads. Or, if you return to
           | Google and try other links for the same query. Or if you
           | return to Google and refine the query (e.g., a new search
           | where the term is within a predefined threshold of word
           | vector similarity)
           | 
           | There are plenty of ways to approximate time spend on link.
        
         | vandreas2 wrote:
         | Feels like the early days of the internet when the computer
         | savvy knew how to find what they were looking for (possibly
         | even using early google) and everyone else was condemned to
         | sifting through trash to get something useful. These days I
         | find myself reaching more often for specialised search like
         | going straight to wikipedia or amazon if I want to get a direct
         | answer.
        
           | ROTMetro wrote:
           | I almost spit coffee all over my keyboard. "straight to ...
           | amazon if I want to get a direct answer.". Hilarious.
        
         | Ensorceled wrote:
         | The first headline is "Better ranking of original, quality
         | content"
         | 
         | The update literally says they are working to get rid of the
         | type of useless content you are talking about.
        
         | badwolf wrote:
         | literally every dang recipe website in the universe... Ugh.
        
         | cma wrote:
         | Wikipedia doesn't bring in adsense dollars, I'm surprised it is
         | usually still on the first page (frequently it isn't for
         | disease searches, which have some of the highest ad spends).
        
         | machiaweliczny wrote:
         | But it's very easy to exclude most popular words and use TF-IDF
         | and Google probably uses that to devalue rambling.
        
         | snowwrestler wrote:
         | Those types of rambling posts are clearly one of the targets of
         | this update. From the Search Central guidance, here's a
         | question for site operators to ask themselves to "Avoid
         | creating content for search engines first":
         | 
         | > Are you writing to a particular word count because you've
         | heard or read that Google has a preferred word count? (No, we
         | don't).
         | 
         | https://developers.google.com/search/blog/2022/08/helpful-co...
        
           | dmix wrote:
           | It's funny because one of the points is
           | 
           | a) dont summarize other sites
           | 
           | b) dont write overly long articles just to make google happy
           | 
           | It's a shame a) is never helping with b)
        
         | stevenally wrote:
         | Yeah. The more words, the more space to insert ads. Then people
         | tap on those ads by mistake when scrolling.
        
         | [deleted]
        
         | whage wrote:
         | This resonates with me so freaking much. I am disgusted by how
         | every bit of information on webpages seem to be buried between
         | paragraphs of empty EMPTY talk and even when they seem to get
         | to the point, most of the time there is no real information
         | there. Sorry, this had to come out. We really need better
         | search engines.
        
           | civilized wrote:
           | I think it's going to require a social rating system. Which
           | is why people append "reddit" to searches these days.
        
             | layer8 wrote:
             | It's safe to assume that a social ranking system covering
             | the whole web will be gamed.
        
               | jfoster wrote:
               | There is an extent they can go to with account
               | verification where gaming is not very feasible.
               | 
               | Can you create a fake account with a verified credit card
               | number, verified phone number, passport, drivers license,
               | account history consistent with human usage, Google One
               | subscription, etc.? You probably can, but doing it at-
               | scale is going to be quite costly.
        
               | feanaro wrote:
               | I don't think we need this that bad so as to jeopardize
               | our privacy and freedom over it. So I'll pass on this
               | idea.
        
               | hattmall wrote:
               | Yes, but if it's truly social it won't be easy. There
               | need to be ways to see who did what and filter them out
               | and various groups / spheres of influence. Just like in
               | real life.
               | 
               | If it is a hidden algorithmically social function then of
               | course it will be gamed.
               | 
               | But IRL there are certain people whose advice and
               | recommendations you value and those whose you ignore. And
               | in other cases you can easily ask the source of other
               | information to find out if it is high value or not. MLM
               | is the gamification of the IRL social structure and it's
               | fairly easy to opt-out.
               | 
               | That's what search needs, a way to see the path
               | information took to be presented to you and a way to
               | filter it.
               | 
               | Unfortunately right now, so much of the best information
               | is in Facebook groups, post and comments. The interface
               | there is absolutely horrible though and not designed to
               | provide you information, but to maximize the amount of
               | ads that come across your screen.
               | 
               | The same is true for video information. It's not easily
               | searchable or digestible. The web peaked when information
               | was predominantly text form and not fragmented into
               | walled gardens.
        
               | lotsofpulp wrote:
               | > Yes, but if it's truly social it won't be easy. There
               | need to be ways to see who did what and filter them out
               | and various groups / spheres of influence. Just like in
               | real life.
               | 
               | Appending site:news.ycombinator.com instead of Reddit?
        
           | rchaud wrote:
           | This is true of most non-fiction literature as well (self-
           | help and business books especially), so I'm not sure if
           | Google can necessarily discourage people from adding
           | unnecessary padding.
           | 
           | Google is already scraping bits of website content and
           | showing it to the user as a "featured snippet". Nobody is
           | going to write short pages if Google can already rob you of a
           | click so easily.
        
           | danyork wrote:
           | My understanding from reading a number of articles about this
           | "helpful content" update from Google is that they want to get
           | rid of pages like what you describe and instead prioritize
           | pages that get right to the point. So perhaps you'll get what
           | you are asking for.
        
         | lopis wrote:
         | Clearly the end game for Google is to, also, become TikTok.
         | 100% algorithmically sorted original content.
        
           | pas wrote:
           | I have no problem with that if it can also read my mind and
           | serve up what I need. Until then, I want the option to
           | correct their generous recommendations.
        
       ___________________________________________________________________
       (page generated 2022-08-19 23:02 UTC)