[HN Gopher] Simple mix of soap and solvent could help destroy 'f...
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Simple mix of soap and solvent could help destroy 'forever
chemicals'
Author : ckcheng
Score : 29 points
Date : 2022-08-18 22:13 UTC (46 minutes ago)
(HTM) web link (www.science.org)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.science.org)
| smm11 wrote:
| DMSO and soap is expensive? Okay, then.
| culi wrote:
| Now that Teflon got sued and switched to a different, probably
| more harmful, chemical I wonder if we'll want to go back to the
| OG "forever chemicals"
| Teknoman117 wrote:
| That's honestly one of the things I wish we could get a handle
| on.
|
| Company gets sued for using and hiding the danger of a compound
| they learned fairly quickly was toxic. Goes and invents another
| compound and switches to it without having to prove its safety.
| After it becoming public that they were intentionally hiding
| dangers for a half century, I feel we should take away their
| ability to be given the benefit of the doubt.
|
| All I think they learn from these lawsuits is that they need to
| get better at identifying and removing people who will call
| them out on their bullshit.
|
| Edit - I know the whole thing with DuPont was using PFOAs in
| the manufacturing process and leaking (intentionally dumping)
| them into the environment, but it's not like the final product
| (Teflon) is safe to ingest either, which as a cooking surface,
| you most definitely will in some quantity.
| ars wrote:
| > but it's not like the final product (Teflon) is safe to
| ingest either
|
| Sure it is. I don't think a less toxic material than Teflon
| even exists. It's toxicity is comparable to water.
|
| The LD50 of Teflon is > 11,280 mg/kg. Water by comparison is
| 90,000 mg/kg. They were not able to measure the exact
| toxicity because it's impossible to eat so much.
| ars wrote:
| The new chemical is https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GenX and
| while I'm not a chemist as best I can tell, it also contains a
| carboxylic acid group, so this method would work on it.
| sbierwagen wrote:
| The paper: https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/science.abm8868
|
| The "soap and solvent" is sodium hydroxide (lye) and DMSO at 120
| degC. Those are... fairly... well behaved chemicals, but lye is
| stout stuff and DMSO attacks nitrile gloves.
|
| You could imagine a remediation process that uses this process
| but the combo ain't exactly Dawn dish soap. I'd almost prefer
| pyroprocessing over it.
| chasil wrote:
| DMSO is _not_ well-behaved. It easily penetrates human skin,
| and carries solutes with it. Don 't touch!
|
| "DMSO can cause contaminants, toxins, and medicines to be
| absorbed through the skin, which may cause unexpected effects."
|
| https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dimethyl_sulfoxide
| samwillis wrote:
| Slightly off topic, I'm keen to dispose of our Teflon frying pan.
| Does anyone have a good recommendation for an alternative,
| ideally one that doesn't take too much "maintenance"?
|
| We also have a Teflon milk pan but that is never used at a high
| tempriture so I'm less concerned about that.
| droopyEyelids wrote:
| You could get a new pan with 'ceramic' coating. It's just like
| teflon in basically every way.
| ok_dad wrote:
| > It's just like teflon in basically every way.
|
| Hopefully not in the bad ways? Is the "ceramic coating"
| proven to not be harmful?
| ars wrote:
| What bad ways? Teflon is not harmful. Teflon is not the
| same as PFAS, and Teflon cookware does not leech any PFAS
| into food. See my other reply:
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32515717
|
| And to answer your question, ceramics sometimes have heavy
| metals to get bright colors (cadmium mostly). Make sure to
| buy from a reputable manufacturer.
| itsangaris wrote:
| Ceramic itself is safe. Ultimately for a coating, the
| safety depends on what's underneath if/when it wears
| through.
| Tagbert wrote:
| I got a couple different "ceramic" coated skillets and they
| were the stickiest things I've ever used. They went straight
| to the recycler.
| maccard wrote:
| They need to be _hot_ to work.
| ars wrote:
| High temperatures do not bother Teflon, there's no reason to
| dispose of it because of that.
|
| According to the EPA Teflon frying pans do not leech any PFOA
| into food, that's not where people are exposed.
|
| I've noticed that for some reason a ton of people think they
| get exposure to PFOA from cookware, and that's simply not true.
| PFOA exposure mainly comes from waterproofing coatings,
| slippery coatings (like the bottom of skis), and firefighting
| foam.
|
| Paper dishes (plates, straws, etc) are a big source of exposure
| because they need to make them waterproof. Make sure to ask for
| plastic.
| t-3 wrote:
| Leaching isn't the worry with non-stick coatings, flaking is.
| Everyone's seen pans flake off teflon into food.
| pomian wrote:
| Nothing beats cast iron. They aren't hard to take care of.(In
| spite of the rhetoric.) Actually easier, once you get a good
| surface on them. Pots, frying pans, woks, etc. They work very
| well. The most important thing is to give them time to heat up.
| Once they are, they hold the heat very well, so can cook at any
| temperature.
| RosanaAnaDana wrote:
| Cast iron works as a non-stick with a bit of practice.
| swlkr wrote:
| I switched to stainless steel, it is more to maintain, but it's
| not horrible. I also use a ceramic pan on very low temperatures
| to cook really stick stuff like scrambled eggs.
| themagician wrote:
| Cast iron or enameled cast iron.
|
| Cast iron really doesn't require much maintenance. You can
| season it and never wash it and be delicate with it like a
| fancy chef, or you can abuse the hell out of it and it doesn't
| matter because it's basically indestructible. The only thing
| you can't do is let it sit in water or run it through the
| dishwasher. I mean, you can, but it rusts... which also isn't
| that difficult to clean if it happens.
|
| Cast iron and a green scotchbrite pad or a stainless steel
| scouring pad and you are good. You can use hot water and soap
| to clean it. It will deteriorate any "seasoning" but so what.
| Clean after use, dry and store away. Takes maybe two minutes.
| If you want to get it seasoned so it has some non-stick to it
| you can, but you don't have to.
| Tobani wrote:
| I love my carbon steel pan.
| ckcheng wrote:
| > What's left behind, Trang says, is mostly easily captured
| fluorine ions, and a mixture of harmless, naturally occurring
| carbon and oxygen containing byproducts, her team reports today
| in Science.
|
| > Roughly 40% of PFAS compounds contain carboxylic acid groups,
| and thus could potentially be degraded by the new approach, Trang
| says. Though it has yet to be tested in the field, she adds that
| the most likely strategy would be to use conventional means to
| filter PFAS chemicals from, say drinking water, and then treat
| them off-site.
|
| > The method doesn't work on all types of PFAS, however.
| Compounds used in flame retardants and batteries, for example,
| contain a sulfonate group instead of a carboxylic acid group and
| won't break down with this approach.
| daniel-cussen wrote:
| Batteries contain PFAS? Now I gotta test everything.
| superkuh wrote:
| I was excited for a moment but PFOS (Perfluorooctanesulfonic
| acid, a PFAS) doesn't have a carboxyl group so I guess
| Minnesota's (US state) 3M polluted waters won't get any respite.
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