[HN Gopher] PayPal phishing scam uses invoices sent via PayPal
       ___________________________________________________________________
        
       PayPal phishing scam uses invoices sent via PayPal
        
       Author : shantanu_sharma
       Score  : 184 points
       Date   : 2022-08-18 15:35 UTC (7 hours ago)
        
 (HTM) web link (krebsonsecurity.com)
 (TXT) w3m dump (krebsonsecurity.com)
        
       | sp332 wrote:
       | This has been brought up on HN a few times over the years, but
       | never got much engagement. Here's one from a month ago with a
       | screenshot https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32153924
        
       | mas-ev wrote:
       | I get multiple PayPal requests for money from random throw away
       | accounts with messages ranging from begging for money for
       | something or just phishing invoices like this.
       | 
       | Worst part is that the only option via email is to "Pay". I have
       | to log into PayPal then go through multiple clicks to reject the
       | money request.
       | 
       | Why can't I report & deny in one click?
        
         | koolba wrote:
         | > Why can't I report & deny in one click?
         | 
         | Because then PayPal would have a massive number of reports to
         | follow up on.
        
       | adventured wrote:
       | I recently got one of these for $847 claiming I owed a payment
       | for purchased Bitcoin. It was disconcerting for sure, because it
       | appears to be a legitimate invoice that you owe a payment for
       | (rather than an attempted fraud that PayPal is making possible).
       | So your mind immediately goes to that your account got hacked in
       | some form, and somebody used it to purchase Bitcoin.
       | 
       | To make matters worse, the invoice sits there in your PayPal
       | account, and you're just a mistaken click or so away from
       | authorizing the charge. Under my "activity" section, it sits
       | right at the very top, forever, under the "Pending" headline
       | (since early July). For whatever reason I can't get rid of it
       | (PayPal killed the actual invoice after a week, they must have
       | noticed the fraudulent activity from that account; but the
       | invoice card summary remains in my activity under pending,
       | perpetually).
       | 
       | Here is what the core of the emailed text looks like:
       | 
       | "You Purchased BITCOIN (0. 054631) for $ 847. 12. Reference
       | Number-N34421979 If you have any concern regarding your order
       | kindly contact us because we are getting lot of complaints
       | regarding fraudulent orders. HELP-DESK (806)440-0799."
       | 
       | It arrives from service@paypal.com with the email subject saying
       | the invoice is from PayPal (rather than being from xyz merchant
       | or similar; which only adds to the concern that a fraud has
       | already occurred within my PayPal account). The text in the email
       | otherwise looks legitimate as I assume it did arrive from
       | PayPal's service. It would be easy for a normal user to fall for
       | the scam.
       | 
       | In their haphazard greed, PayPal slipped up and made their
       | invoicing system too loose, too unconstrained in how it
       | functions.
        
         | unknownaccount wrote:
         | It's odd that they put a space in between the decimal and
         | dollar amount. Same as in the OP story. Perhaps run by the same
         | operator. No US person would ever put a space there..it stands
         | out for sure. Perhaps gives us a clue as to the origin of the
         | person running this scam.
        
       | Scoundreller wrote:
       | Anyone else getting occasional 2FA SMSs from PayPal that they
       | didn't request?
       | 
       | Like, I get it, somebody probably has my email address, but I
       | never really got these before.
       | 
       | And I doubt it's somebody's typo.
       | 
       | Would think a company as big as PayPal would be able to cut off
       | the source once the source requests more than 3 different logins
       | by SMS.
        
         | adrr wrote:
         | I get it from outlook.com multiple times a day for a password
         | reset. Assuming a six digit code, they do this 1M times a day
         | across multiple accounts to get around per account throttling,
         | they'll get one success. If they aren't using a secure random
         | number generator, they get increase the probability if they can
         | predict the random number seed.
        
           | Scoundreller wrote:
           | Coming soon:
           | 
           | "Your login code is 8kqhc1abw0v6n11kmdi0py5lwy. Do not share
           | this with anyone"
        
             | tetha wrote:
             | Stupid idea: Generate ~8 words... and shove them into GPT-3
             | to create a ~100 word novel, and make that your security
             | code. Suddenly your security code is about a bearded elf,
             | riding a cucumber, wielding a unicorn to defeat ice cream.
             | Try guessing that.
        
             | TakeBlaster16 wrote:
             | "This code will expire in 30 seconds."
        
         | YVoyiatzis wrote:
         | I got one a few months ago, an invoice from a contractor. I did
         | bringing it to PayPal's attention, as I was fully aware of the
         | dubious attempt. Haven't heard back, invoice still sitting
         | there awaiting settlement.
        
         | cperciva wrote:
         | I've been getting those a lot recently. I assumed it was my
         | phone number being attached to an account which it shouldn't be
         | attached to.
        
         | arbuge wrote:
         | I have noticed these coming in over the last few weeks. Didn't
         | get any before.
        
           | Scoundreller wrote:
           | And they come from the right short-code as my legitimate
           | requests.
           | 
           | Just noticed my legitimate requests are in the form of
           | "PayPal: xxxxxx is your security code. It expires in 10
           | minutes. Don't share this code with anyone."
           | 
           | But the last one I didn't request didn't have an expiration
           | mentioned:
           | 
           | "PayPal: xxxxxx is your security code. Don't share your
           | code."
        
         | toast0 wrote:
         | PayPal offers using SMS to login as a one-time code, without
         | the use of a password. So it's not like a 2fa code where you
         | need to know a secret before verifying you have access to a
         | token (SMS code), it just skips to sending you the code if you
         | have the email or phone number.
        
           | Scoundreller wrote:
           | Yeah, as another poster stated, with a 6 digit code, brute
           | forcing is a likely answer. 1 in a million (or less?) chances
           | to get it right.
           | 
           | PayPal has a problem on its hands if it's unable to see if
           | they're legit.
        
             | toast0 wrote:
             | Brute forcing like that leaves a lot of data, if PayPal is
             | looking for it.
        
         | MOARDONGZPLZ wrote:
         | Just counted, I got 23 of these in the last 30 days. Mostly in
         | bursts. No idea what the deal is.
        
         | IronWolve wrote:
         | Hackers are going through lists of hacked password lists and
         | automated test of each entry, causing tons of
         | gmail/outlook/amazon/paypal/ebay/etc emails.
         | 
         | One way to protect yourself is use a different email address,
         | and only for services. Many email sites allow custom addresses,
         | so you can create specific emails addresses for each service.
         | 
         | And if your cellphone number is also leaked, get a sms service
         | with a different phone number.
         | 
         | https://haveibeenpwned.com and you can do a check on yourself.
         | 
         | I find it sad Google sells titan keys but ignores them on
         | login.
        
       | bentcorner wrote:
       | I'm curious - if the link in the email leads to paypal.com with
       | what looks like an invoice, why doesn't the invoice appear on the
       | target's email account?
       | 
       | Is it just that the invoice is a real invoice but isn't debited
       | against the target's paypal account?
       | 
       | Or is the invoice fake somehow?
        
         | kuratkull wrote:
         | I think it being a real invoice would be the easiest answer.
         | The scammers have obtained a legit business account at PayPal
         | and are issuing baseless invoices. I don't know if they'd
         | receive the money if you paid - maybe. But they want you to
         | call them and install the backdoor.
        
         | ryan-c wrote:
         | In the version I looked at, the scammer sent it to their own
         | email account and did a replay attack against the victim -
         | which doesn't invalidate the cryptographic anti-spam signature.
        
       | datavirtue wrote:
       | You don't even need a legit business account on PayPal. You can
       | send these from a sandbox account. Easy peasy. Quick.
        
       | tlogan wrote:
       | Invoice scam is old.
       | 
       | My company is getting dozen of mail with "overdue" invoices from
       | some random corporations for services like elevator inspection,
       | heating checks, etc. Of course, they also have some strange phone
       | number to call (which has just automated message). These people
       | just hope we will pay and move on.
       | 
       | We wanted to report them but it is a lot of work.
        
         | bluGill wrote:
         | The scam is decades old. Big companies all have complex expense
         | report systems and have for years because if they employees
         | don't account for every penny someone will send an invoice
         | without delivering. Sure they also catch some employee fraud,
         | but that isn't the only reason to do it.
        
       | badrabbit wrote:
       | Paypal-communications.com is a lookalike phishing domain, true or
       | false?
       | 
       | I don't think these companies understand the DNS system and
       | purpose.
        
         | jedberg wrote:
         | I used to work in PayPal's anti-phishing group. In fact I was
         | the first engineer on that group. We definitely understood DNS
         | then. We even helped spearhead SPF and DKIM. And we _strongly_
         | advocated that emails from the company never come from any
         | domain other than PayPal.com
         | 
         | Unfortunately after eBay bought PayPal, they put MBAs in
         | charge, and the marketing team won every argument about the
         | "necessity" of alternate domains to track marketing
         | initiatives.
         | 
         | They never really took into account the lost reputation of
         | users getting constantly phished.
        
           | badrabbit wrote:
           | Thanks for that insight. Curious though, why did they not use
           | a subdomain? Would communications. Or paypal-communications.
           | As a subdomain be worse in their opinion?
        
             | bombcar wrote:
             | Some of the "subcontracted" sites that do marketing stuff
             | are better equipped to handle a top-level domain than a
             | subdomain.
             | 
             | And a subdomain requires negotiating with someone in the
             | bowels of IT, whereas anyone can register PayPal-
             | communications.com
        
               | bad416f1f5a2 wrote:
               | Oh man, this is been my exact experience. You can pretty
               | much chart the growth of a company by watching how much
               | marketing is done with in house teams and how much goes
               | to external agencies.
               | 
               | And as soon as the external agencies are involved, they
               | want as much control as possible. I don't blame them:
               | setting up DNS entries for some stupid marketing site
               | rarely rises to anyones priorities. So they route around
               | internal controls. Everyone is happier, and everything
               | gets slightly worse.
        
               | bombcar wrote:
               | I've yet to see someone be able to handle a delegated
               | subdomain (where you set subdomain.example.com to have NS
               | pointing at the contractor's setup). Too bad, as it's
               | exactly what it was designed for.
        
             | jedberg wrote:
             | I'm not really sure. Probably something about tools not
             | respecting or ignoring them or "they don't look as nice" or
             | some other silly reason.
             | 
             | Edit: To clarify, there were a lot of good reasons not to
             | allow them to _link_ to a subdomain, especially they were
             | running marketing software made by other companies, because
             | there is a lot of nasty security issues around cookies with
             | subdomains.
             | 
             | But there was no reason for them not to route their
             | outbound email through a single domain, because the weren't
             | supposed to run 3rd party mailers without deep audits.
        
         | formerly_proven wrote:
         | You generally can't know if a mail is actually from Paypal or
         | not, because they use a huge number of domains to send mails.
         | Just assume everything that says it's from Paypal is fake, much
         | easier.
        
           | badrabbit wrote:
           | Pretty much my point, how not using subdomains meant it is
           | very difficult to stop phishing from look alikes.
        
       | cromka wrote:
       | I personally reported it here on HN a month ago, to a little
       | response: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32153924
       | 
       | I also reported it to PayPal. Apparently they're to big to care.
        
       | dangus wrote:
       | Not just PayPal, too - other services that offer the ability to
       | send invoices to arbitrary people.
       | 
       | The worst part about these scams is that the invoice email is
       | legitimate, as in, it's actually coming from PayPal and it's not
       | a "fake" email.
        
         | ryan-c wrote:
         | This scam does not rely on services being able to send to
         | arbitrary email addresses without prior confirmation.
        
       | Waterluvian wrote:
       | I got one of these for textbooks. And it was temporarily alarming
       | and the most convincing scam to come my way. Mainly because it
       | comes from PayPal's actual email. This needs to be fixed.
        
       | olliej wrote:
       | I've had a few similar recently just "confirming" my purchase of
       | some random product but using pretty much identical to real
       | PayPal design. Occasionally with clearly bogus foo.bar@gmail or
       | similar reply-to address though at this point given decent
       | account security on PayPal (password manager for password, 2fa,
       | etc) mean I just assume that such emails are bogus until proven
       | otherwise.
       | 
       | At the same time though I keep coming across companies that
       | insist on using designs that trigger my "this is phishing" alarm
       | bells because for whatever reason they insist on using links to
       | the company that they contracted billing to instead of, you know,
       | the company I did business with.
       | 
       | It seems especially prevalent among, of all groups that should
       | know better, medical companies[1]. So say I had a visit with The
       | Awesome Doctor Company, I'll get emails that for "privacy"
       | reasons saying "You have a balance due at wedopayments.com", or
       | "billing-awesomedoctorco.com", etc the latter being one of the
       | most common things phishing emails do (I think I've actually got
       | billing-paypal.com or similar at least once).
       | 
       | [edit: [1] Ah ha, found the actual site, so remember I got an
       | email saying "you have a balance due", that included no other
       | details to peryourhealth.com. Which was for the company "East Bay
       | Anesthesiology" (which I also didn't know of/about, but Sutter
       | Health just silently outsourced that part of operation to them,
       | didn't tell me, and then had them bill me directly and
       | separately??!??!!? God I hate the US healthcare system)]
        
       | fotta wrote:
       | I got one of these emails a few weeks ago. It looked real and
       | passed Gmail's filters but when I logged into my account
       | separately there were no invoices. I had never gotten an invoice
       | from PayPal before so it smelled fishy. Reported it to phishing@.
        
         | gxqoz wrote:
         | Yeah this is exactly what happened to me, although I didn't
         | report to phishing. It both looked real and like a phishing
         | attempt and after independently logging into my Paypal account
         | and not seeing anything I concluded it was definitely phishing.
         | Pretty terrible of the Paypal system to allow this to happen
         | though.
        
         | bcrescimanno wrote:
         | Former PayPal employee here.
         | 
         | In truth, you got the best possible experience and it's good
         | that you reported it. Ultimately, what would happen internally
         | is that we'd detect this malicious use and cancel the invoices
         | so it's not possible for the scammer to continue to collect on
         | them--but we couldn't "claw back" the emails that had already
         | gone out. The email looked legit because it was an email from
         | PayPal about a real invoice.
         | 
         | I don't know if they should be more proactive in their
         | communication with folks in this situation and it's been over a
         | year since I left; but, this is not a new issue at all and it's
         | something we would contend with from time to time while I was
         | there.
        
       | nabakin wrote:
       | How do they spoof emails to not trigger any spam filter? I know
       | you can change the headers but I thought email providers
       | protected against that
        
         | bcrescimanno wrote:
         | The emails are not spoofed. They are actually generated by
         | PayPal to notify an account holder of an invoice. The vast
         | majority of the emails that these systems generate are
         | legitimate emails with legitimate invoices.
         | 
         | The vector here is:
         | 
         | 1. Create a PayPal account. 2. Create an invoice through
         | PayPal's invoice tool and send to nabakin@example.com. 3.
         | PayPal sends an email to notify the recipient of the
         | outstanding invoice.
         | 
         | When PayPal detects fraudulent invoices are generated, they
         | cancel those invoices so consumers no longer see them and can
         | no longer pay on them; however, it's too late to stop the
         | emails.
        
         | tlogan wrote:
         | I think this is a valid invoice created in PayPal. I assume you
         | can do the same with Stripe, Quickbooks, etc.
        
           | ryan-c wrote:
           | DKIM signed emails from PayPal are treated favorably by spam
           | filters.
           | 
           | The sample I reviewed had been set to an account belonging to
           | (or compromised by) the scammer, modified slightly, and BCC'd
           | to the victim. Specifically, a Reply-To header was added -
           | PayPal does not assert non-existence of a reply-to header in
           | their DKIM signature, and the entire point of BCC is that it
           | doesn't have a header.
           | 
           | Thus, these emails can be relayed to any target, and the
           | scammer can choose any reply-to address they like, and the
           | DKIM signature will still be valid.
           | 
           | If anyone has samples and can send me them with full headers,
           | I would be _very_ interested to examine more. I have a public
           | email address in my HN profile.
        
       | coldpie wrote:
       | I'm frequently impressed with spammer ingenuity. We had a similar
       | thing happen at a previous job. Users could sign up for a free
       | trial for our software using a web form. The form had fields like
       | "email address" and "name" so we could follow up with the user.
       | Scammers would fill in a victim's email address and some scummy
       | website in the "name" field, resulting in our servers sending the
       | victim an email starting with something like, "Hello, Click Here
       | For Free Money FreeMoney.com," followed by the rest of our
       | marketing copy. Never would've thought to use the form that
       | way...
        
         | cuu508 wrote:
         | I run a SaaS where users can create projects and invite other
         | users into their projects. When a user gets invited, the SaaS
         | them an email notification "You've been invited to project
         | such-and-such".
         | 
         | So a spammer created a project, they put their spam message in
         | the project's name, and started to go through their victim
         | list, inviting each into their project. I suppose that's one
         | way to send an email :-)
        
           | judge2020 wrote:
           | With SPF/DKIM enabling authenticated email, domain reputation
           | is at a premium these days, especially if scammers want to
           | end up in gmail inboxes.
        
             | chrishynes wrote:
             | Most spam I get to my gmail inbox nowadays is itself from
             | an @gmail.com address :-/
        
               | jjav wrote:
               | Indeed. Nearly 100% of the phishing we get at my employer
               | (which I monitor) is from gmail.com addresses.
        
               | londons_explore wrote:
               | It's because Mike Hearn retired from the Google anti-
               | abuse team - their bot protections went downhill from
               | there, and now bulk Google accounts sell for a few cents
               | each.
               | 
               | It's easy to make money when you can send out thousands
               | of spam emails, each with hundreds of recipients, for
               | under a cent.
        
               | kccqzy wrote:
               | And where do those bulk Google accounts come from?
               | Compromised accounts due to weak/leaked passwords,
               | without 2FA.
               | 
               | What does Google do about them? Making it harder to log
               | in to dormant accounts from new devices and locations.
               | What's the result? Periodic HN complaints on someone
               | unable to access their decade-old dormant account, or an
               | active account with a truly forgotten password, etc.
               | 
               | Anti-abuse is hard. Damned if you do something, damned if
               | you don't.
        
               | londons_explore wrote:
               | They could do far more things to solve this issue...
               | 
               | For dormant account reactivation, they can ask the user
               | for lots of details that are in the account. For example,
               | "please type in email addresses of as many people as
               | possible that you have sent emails to from this account".
               | Which cities have you previously logged into this account
               | from?
               | 
               | All info would be optional, but the more the user
               | provides the quicker they're going to get in.
               | 
               | When the user has provided enough information to be
               | fairly sure that it's a real user attempting to login,
               | then start a 7 day countdown. During the 7 days, contact
               | the users top contacted email addresses and ask them to
               | reply confirming the user is trying to reactivate the
               | account.
               | 
               | Hire attackers to try and break into old accounts, and
               | use their input to find the likelihood of each type of
               | information being correctly given by the real account
               | owner and an attacker.
        
               | xorcist wrote:
               | And Facebook, for some reason. Which is weird as I've
               | never signed up for any Facebook owned service. Never
               | looked into how they do it, but they keep coming.
        
         | Mordisquitos wrote:
         | As someone with the unfortunate privilege of having an early
         | GMail address with _${FIRST_NAME}.${LAST_NAME}@gmail.com_ , the
         | fact that your description of the first email you would send
         | your ostensible customers does not sound like a straightforward
         | confirmation email is already a red flag.
        
         | shaftway wrote:
         | I had a form like that. You put in your email and it sends an
         | email from us@foo.com, to us@foo.com, and to them@whatever.com.
         | We had internal mailing lists for clients, including something
         | like all-clients@foo.com, but they were locked down so only
         | certain people could send to them. Turns out us@foo.com was one
         | of those people, and so someone would spam all of our clients
         | by putting their return address as all-clients@us.com. We just
         | took the form down and posted our email address.
        
           | rtkwe wrote:
           | Alternatively don't accept any internal @foo.com email
           | addresses in your contact us form unless you're an email
           | provider would work too.
        
         | misterbwong wrote:
         | Add me to the chorus of people that are impressed/scared by
         | spammers.
         | 
         | In a previous life, I worked at a semi-well-known auto
         | publisher site where scammers literally stood up a copy of
         | almost _the entire site_ (ads, functionality, and all) in order
         | to execute an auto escrow scam. We know of at least one
         | instance where a user in the UK was scammed out of ~$10,000-ish
         | using this method.
         | 
         | Democratization of technology at its best (worst?) I guess...
        
         | SoftTalker wrote:
         | Never trust user input. If a user input value will be used on a
         | page or email or other output, it will be abused once this is
         | discovered. You must sanity check.
         | 
         | Edit: this was already pointed out downthread. Missed it before
         | I posted.
        
           | dylan604 wrote:
           | The fact that in 2022 user input sanitation is still such a
           | low hanging fruit for attackers shows that you cannot preach
           | this loud enough or often enough.
        
       | mkmk wrote:
       | The worst offender here is Atlassian. Every week, my common-name
       | email address gets added to a new JIRA instance and is
       | relentlessly spammed using the 'you've been made an admin of an
       | organization' or 'you were mentioned on an issue' features. Each
       | time, another phishing or crypto-pumping scam gets delivered by
       | their high-reputation email servers.
        
       | dclowd9901 wrote:
       | Just got one of these recently. I was legit worried someone had
       | somehow managed to charge me without my consent. The invoice
       | doesn't help at all at clarifying the fact. PayPal really needs
       | to clean up the design of that email.
        
       | axsharma wrote:
       | Avanan had reported seeing this exploited by hackers back in
       | July. https://www.avanan.com/blog/sending-phishing-emails-from-
       | pay...
        
       | almog wrote:
       | I received a phishing email like this two weeks ago (different
       | text and phone number but same scheme overall):
       | https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FZWERGlXgAIUVF7?format=jpg&name=...
       | 
       | It took me a while to figure out what's going on, these were the
       | steps that I took:                 1. Examined the headers which
       | looked legit, because well, it's really from paypal.       2.
       | Googled the phone number, and could not find any mentioning of it
       | on Paypal (though I must say it did seem like a similar number to
       | at least one of Paypal's numbers)       3. Checked Truecaller and
       | found no record of this number (I later updated this number
       | description to alert other people from phishing attempts.
       | 4. Logged in to my account, just to make sure (without clicking
       | the link), and found no evidence of any funny activity.       5.
       | Googled the phishing text and could not find relevant results but
       | Paypal itself did have a page with very similar text (well
       | thought out phishing attempt)       6. I stripped the link from
       | all query strings, opened it in incognito, and voila, I saw that
       | it's an invoice page that anyone can access and pay.
       | 
       | I tried to click the "Feedback" button on the right which I
       | expected to show me an option to report a phishing attempt but
       | instead, it just did nothing, absolutely nothing, on both FF and
       | Chrome (not even a console error that I can remember seeing).
       | 
       | Some conclusions:                 1. Paypal are using _exactly_
       | the same email address for invoice notifications as other formal
       | emails that I get from Paypal.       2. Paypal are not framing
       | the invoice text as a text that's originated from the invoice
       | sender, thus allowing fraudsters to convey the same official tone
       | as the rest of their email.       3. phishing@paypal.com is how
       | you report phishing attempts to Paypal though I'm not aware of
       | any changes they applied since.
        
         | noahtallen wrote:
         | Yeah, having used PayPal invoices for Reddit's r/hardwareswap,
         | all you need is an email address and you can bill someone for
         | anything via PayPal. It even gives you their shipping address
         | after they pay. Very convenient for the happy path, but
         | definitely ripe for abuse.
        
           | almog wrote:
           | I've used that for legitimate use too, and yes, it can be
           | convenient. I think it can stay convenient without some of
           | the issues that made this particular phishing mail so well
           | made (i.e. tell the recipient that the message they're
           | reading is part of an invoice text sent by the invoice sender
           | + use a dedicated email address for invoices).
        
       | TakeBlaster16 wrote:
       | Don't trust any text that a malicious adversary could change.
       | This is the email version of the Line of Death
       | https://textslashplain.com/2017/01/14/the-line-of-death/
        
         | __derek__ wrote:
         | I'd never seen that Line of Death article, but it seems like a
         | useful heuristic. Thanks for sharing.
        
         | EGreg wrote:
         | I once wrote an email to Steve Jobs, saying that operating
         | systems like MacOS and iOS should have a secret phrase or icon
         | that they show to you whenever they show a system-level
         | security dialog. (And of course implement the same restrictions
         | on screenshots of that dialog as they do for movies.) Because
         | otherwise, an app can totally fake the interface of a security
         | dialog. The only way you know, these days, is that password
         | managers and cookie jars work with the "approved" sites, but
         | they can simply show you a site that doesn't require those, and
         | then fool you into entering your passwords! Steve never replied
         | to me. And Apple never implemented it.
        
           | datavirtue wrote:
           | The only company I have seen use the secret icon was a
           | bank...and that was quite a few years ago. I forget which
           | bank. Maybe Wells Fargo?
        
             | dylan604 wrote:
             | They probably showed you the secret icon to indicate that
             | they had opened an secret account in your name where the
             | secret was kept from you
        
           | Animats wrote:
           | Secure paths are a big issue.
           | 
           | Windows used to have a "secure attention sequence", CNTL-ALT-
           | DEL, which you had to push when you really wanted to talk to
           | the security functions of the operating system. That stopped
           | being mandatory in Windows 10, due to "customer confusion",
           | although some enterprise configurations turn it back on.
           | 
           | The concept comes from some DoD security projects from around
           | 1980. Microsoft picked it up when Windows NT was being
           | developed. Some DoD systems have also used a brightly colored
           | screen border to indicate the degree of classification of the
           | content. But that's too intrusive for consumer use.
           | 
           | There are so many layers now that it's hard to provide a
           | secure path that can't be compromised.
        
             | dfox wrote:
             | SAK is controlled by group policy since Windows 2000 and is
             | disabled by default on client SKUs that are not domain
             | member.
             | 
             | On the other hand all current iOS devices have some
             | hardware level SAK-like gesture that directly confirms the
             | user intent to the secure enclave. The overall UX design is
             | such that it is not especially noticeable unless you know
             | that there is such a thing.
        
         | mholt wrote:
         | Yeah. That was also roughly the conclusion of my masters
         | thesis: https://scholarsarchive.byu.edu/etd/7403/ ("After
         | HTTPS: Indicating Risk Instead of Security") -- we examined the
         | flaws of current browser warnings and security messages and one
         | of the big ones is that attackers can use those UIs against
         | you. (Hence our proposed solutions all involved UI above the
         | LoD.)
        
         | SilasX wrote:
         | Heh, I did a version of this as the attacker in early Second
         | Life.
         | 
         | In SL, you can create objects and have them speak (via the
         | onscreen text chat window). You were allowed to give them any
         | name, so I would name them after another player, letting me
         | "throw my voice" and impersonate them.
         | 
         | The devs apparently realized this problem early on, and their
         | fix was: objects speak with green text, human players speak
         | with white text. But this isn't disclosed anywhere, and there
         | weren't many speaking objects at the time.
         | 
         | So my workaround was to name an object after another player,
         | wait for them to go afk, and then have the object say, "Hey
         | guys, guys, check this out! I can make my text green! Woo hoo!"
         | And _then_ say all the malicious stuff I wanted them to say.
        
       | redm wrote:
       | This problem is similar to problem's I've had as well.
       | Scammers/Spammers exploit services and tools in such ways that
       | its difficult to prevent without manual review. Just like in
       | Field of Dreams, If you build it, they will come.. The best
       | advice is Buyer (or reader) Beware.
        
       | robrtsql wrote:
       | Intuit Quickbooks is another service that gets used like this. My
       | mom received some fraudulent invoice from an Intuit Quickbooks
       | user, which was from the legit Intuit domain since it was sent by
       | the service, which claimed that she owed "PayPal, Inc" $600 for
       | something or other. I told her to delete the email and reported
       | the activity to Intuit but never heard back.
        
       | yieldcrv wrote:
       | > Also, the email headers in the phishing message (PDF) show that
       | it passed all email validation checks as being sent by PayPal,
       | and that it was sent through an Internet address assigned to
       | PayPal.
       | 
       | More awareness of the various possibilities of this need to
       | occur.
       | 
       | I recall when this was happening to me in 2017 many people on
       | forums like this wouldn't believe me, choosing to blame the
       | victim instead of the person that made a choice in trying to
       | create a victim. I'm all for some level of agency amongst people
       | to not be a victim, but in the order of diagnosis of the problem
       | this email header issue should be put more highly up on the list.
        
       | noasaservice wrote:
       | Yep, I've been seeing this for a few months.
       | 
       | I've screamed each time I saw one of these. Not that it likely
       | did any good.
        
       | labrador wrote:
       | I received one of these as a text msg. I ignored the message and
       | then checked my PayPal and bank to see if there was a charge of
       | $400. There wasn't but I deleted my PayPal account just to be
       | safe. My reasoning at the time (March) was that sanctions on
       | Russia would motivate a lot of Russian programmers to devote more
       | effort into hacking Americans and I should reduce my attack
       | surface.
       | 
       | There was a posting on HN around that time about a hacker
       | accessing passwords stored in the browser. I didn't save it, but
       | cleaned out my stored passwords just the same.
        
         | Animats wrote:
         | > I received one of these as a text msg. I ignored the message
         | and then checked my PayPal and bank to see if there was a
         | charge of $400. There wasn't but I deleted my PayPal account
         | just to be safe.
         | 
         | This. If your site is being used for phishing attacks, many
         | users may just stop using your service, because it's not worth
         | the trouble.
         | 
         | I used to have an automated list of popular phishing sites.[1]
         | It's still running, but since it's driven by PhishTank, which
         | isn't used much any more, it's not that interesting.
         | 
         | [1] http://sitetruth.com/reports/phishes.html
        
         | elefantastisch wrote:
         | Basically the same here. I looked for a way to report the issue
         | to PayPal. There was no way to do it, so I just deleted my
         | account and gave as a reason that PayPal didn't take fraud
         | seriously if they didn't have a way to report / get advised on
         | suspicious emails.
         | 
         | Oh well. Guess they don't care.
        
           | cfeduke wrote:
           | Paypal doesn't care about fraudulent use of their payment
           | system, they practically promote it by not offering anyway
           | whatsoever to report crimes committed on their platform.
        
           | labrador wrote:
           | The tipping factor for me was PayPal had recently added
           | crypto
        
         | [deleted]
        
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