[HN Gopher] Mexican Loan Apps, Extortion, and the Google Play Store
___________________________________________________________________
Mexican Loan Apps, Extortion, and the Google Play Store
Author : blopeur
Score : 154 points
Date : 2022-08-14 13:49 UTC (9 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (techpolicy.press)
(TXT) w3m dump (techpolicy.press)
| siliconc0w wrote:
| It's a shame because I think there is a legitment use-case for
| micro-lending but there needs to be regulation and enforcement.
| Also asking for those kind of wide permissions should trigger
| some kind of additional review - a scam-filled untrusted
| ecosystem hurts all app developers.
| wejick wrote:
| This kind of scam was so rampant in Indonesia until the
| government took strong stance, effectively sweeping the practice
| across the country. It's like Google doesn't even care about this
| things, in contrary they're so fast blocking and suspending app
| submissions that against their bottom line, like digital goods
| and payments methods.
| nixcraft wrote:
| These scams are going on in India too. Typically they offer
| $100-$200 loans, and there is no legal framework. Victims are
| afraid to go to the police. Even if someone goes to the police,
| these apps are all running from China, and they can't do much
| about it. From the BBC article: "The people running the apps
| gained access to all the contacts on his phone and his pictures,
| and have threated to send nude pictures of his wife to everyone
| on his phone."[1] It is a horrible system, and Google doesn't
| care about poor people getting scammed. Some victims even
| committed suicide because of the threat of releasing their
| private data.
|
| [1]https://www.bbc.com/news/business-61564038
| kumarm wrote:
| Information related to Google Play and Indian loan apps here
| seem to be driven by inaccuracies.
|
| Most of loan apps require users to download APK and side load
| them. Google play removed a number of them from Play app store.
|
| What is the role of Google here? Make it harder to side load
| apps in countries like India? I would think it raises more
| issues than it solves.
| josephcsible wrote:
| When the apps in question are being sideloaded, Google
| shouldn't be doing anything about it. The government should
| instead, by freezing the accounts that the scammers want the
| loan repayments to be sent to (or if the accounts are with
| foreign banks, ban domestic banks and payment processors from
| sending any money to them).
| [deleted]
| nikanj wrote:
| It's interesting how popular Google products remain,
| considering their well-earned reputation of Never Giving A Shit
| rahimnathwani wrote:
| "these apps are all running from China"
|
| I'm curious about this. Can you please tell us more?
| nixcraft wrote:
| The servers for these apps are in China, but the owners are
| in other countries, Mexico, India, China etc. So it is hard
| for police to get a warrant to shut down servers when
| crossborder issues are involved. I am not an expert in such
| crimes, but they make it hard for local police to shut them
| down.
| oefrha wrote:
| If the government can ban TikTok and a bunch of other
| popular apps overnight, surely it's not hard to get scam
| apps removed from Google Play if they cared at all?
| josephcsible wrote:
| Wasn't the TikTok ban only effective because ByteDance
| didn't try to evade it?
| pdntspa wrote:
| Interesting... I was under the impression that it was
| hard to get hosting in China unless you have a chinese
| company with the CCP's blessing
|
| So do they let foreigners set up hosting accounts in
| China then?
| bobkazamakis wrote:
| are you asking what laws criminals are following?
| pdntspa wrote:
| No, I just thought the chinese government regulated
| internet hosting very closely. Or implying that it is
| also complicit in these schemes.
| toast0 wrote:
| Might be easier to get Chinese hosting if the traffic
| doesn't go to China?
| spaceman_2020 wrote:
| Appreciate that the RBI is going tough on digital lending.
|
| The number of scammy, scummy app based lenders was getting out
| of control.
| vishnugupta wrote:
| I came here to mention about situation in India too; so I'll
| add on to this.
|
| Enforcement Directorate (ED) of India in a span of one week has
| frozen bank accounts of two crypto companies on the charges
| that Chinese lending apps were using them to move the money out
| of India. First WazirX[1] a popular exchange and then Vauld[2].
|
| [1] https://bit.ly/3PrKk5g [2] https://bit.ly/3djQ9V2
| jimmaswell wrote:
| 1. Buy a cheap used phone+burner sim for $20
|
| 2. Set up a fake Google account, nudes from Google image
| search, and scammer numbers as contacts
|
| 3. Take these loans and wipe the phone or let them "hack" the
| worthless phone
|
| 4. Profit as these people being out of reach of the police goes
| both ways?
| frostwarrior wrote:
| And doing all this work for a $100 loan?
| cowtools wrote:
| It can be automated. And if it can't, there are armies of
| people in the third world who can "automate" it for you,
| like solving capchas.
|
| Also It's not a $100 loan. The insinuation is that it'a
| $100 dollars that you take and run.
| NullPrefix wrote:
| $100, but you're also doing a good deed.
|
| Donating blood doesn't pay that well either, but people
| still do it.
| dspillett wrote:
| A $100 take-and-keep is what I read. Each loan is worth a
| lot more to the sharks than what a bank would get back from
| anything similar, so the poster above would be taking
| potential a lot more in "opportunity cost" from the
| scammers unless they give in on collection very quickly.
| [deleted]
| notdang wrote:
| They don't approve the loans automatically. They go through
| your photos, social networks,calls, etc. to make sure it's a
| real account.
| cowtools wrote:
| That can be easily faked. Seems susceptible to sybil
| attacks.
| User23 wrote:
| Easily is relative. Any defense can be beaten. The
| question is whether or not it's worth beating it. There's
| no point in spending a million to crack a safe with a
| thousand in it. Well, unless you just want to $%^&
| whoever owns the safe.
| londons_explore wrote:
| It's surprisingly difficult to fake years worth of
| conversations with family and friends...
|
| The loanshark can say "show me the conversation with your
| boss. Show me the conversation with your mom.". They can
| cross reference things between the person's memory and
| the conversations. They can download all the
| conversations and put them in a database so the same
| conversation set can't be used to take out another loan.
|
| They can also call your contacts to confirm details - ie.
| 'can you confirm Mary is your daughter? Does she have 2
| cats and a dog?'
| bagels wrote:
| They can do that, but are they actually doing that?
| true_religion wrote:
| They would do that if they needed because people were
| spoofing the system. Or they would do what the
| traditional banks are doing: avoid lending to people
| without a proven track multi-year record, physical
| location to monitor, and assets to hold as collateral for
| a downpayment.
|
| However, I'm curious about one thing. Everyone who
| suggest spoofing the system for the sake of privacy, do
| you believe people who do that... will actually also
| repay the loan they were given? Or would they just use a
| fake name & commit fraud?
| spaceman_2020 wrote:
| Very sure that you can spoof all of the above with 2-3
| hours of effort.
| Nextgrid wrote:
| I wonder how much effort it would be to automate the
| process of creating real-looking data (via AI or public-
| domain data) and then watch the money roll in (or at the
| very least DoS these scams enough that they can no longer
| tell _real_ loan applications from all the noise).
| duxup wrote:
| This sounds like a sorta fun thing to try to pull off...
| brundolf wrote:
| New use for generative AI?
| jeroenhd wrote:
| Set up a bunch of emulators and you can do this at scale!
| Should earn you a quick few thousand dollars before these
| scanners catch up.
| Zircom wrote:
| You can already do this with the existing "loan" apps like
| Dave or Brigit in the US. They're not legally loans and
| there's no expectation or requirement to actually pay them
| back, and they can't pursue you for it or send it to debt
| collection. Just take out the "loan", call their customer
| service line and remove your bank account, and that's it.
| Free money.
|
| Dave Terms of use section 9.3:
|
| "However, Dave warrants that it has no legal or contractual
| claim against you based on a failure to repay an Advance, but
| Dave will not provide you further Advances while any amount
| remains unpaid under the Advance Service. With respect to a
| failure to repay an Advance, Dave warrants it will not engage
| in any debt collection activities, place the amount owed with
| or sell to a third party, or report you to a consumer
| reporting agency. "
|
| Empower Terms of Service dated Dec. 8th 2021 Section "Empower
| Advance"
|
| "We offer Empower Advances on a nonrecourse basis. This means
| you have no unconditional obligation to repay any Empower
| Advance. Consequently, we warrant to you that we have no
| contractual or legal claim against you for an Empower
| Advance, and we will not engage in debt collection
| activities, place the amount advanced with or sell to a third
| party, or make any reports to credit reporting agencies
| regarding your Empower Advance. However, we reserve the right
| to deny you access to Empower Advance if you (i) do not meet
| the qualification requirements, (ii) request an excessive
| number of Empower Advances in succession, or (iii) do not
| repay the full balance of an Empower Advance. "
|
| MoneyLion Instacash Help Center - Instacash - " What happens
| if I can't make my Instacash repayment?"
|
| " Remember that you have no obligation to repay any Instacash
| advance you receive but you won't have access to additional
| Instacash advances until you have repaid all of your previous
| advances and related Tips and Turbo Fees. It's important to
| know that when you miss a payment, we will continue to
| attempt to repay your Instacash advance and any related Tips
| and Turbo Fees from your eligible accounts as long as your
| payment authorizations for those accounts remain active. You
| can withdraw the payment authorizations on your accounts or
| debit cards by following the prompts in the MoneyLion App to
| remove the payment method or by contacting customer service
| at customercare@moneylion.com, 1-801-252-4427, or at ML Plus
| LLC, Attn Customer Service, P.O. Box 1547, Sandy, UT
| 84091-1547. Please note: You must notify us at least three
| (3) business days (business days are Mondays through Fridays,
| excluding bank holidays) before your scheduled repayment date
| to give us and your financial institution sufficient time to
| process the revocation."
| atlasunshrugged wrote:
| Have you tried it? Very curious to know what happens in
| practice if you try to do this
| Zircom wrote:
| I haven't personally, but know several people that run in
| some of the same online circles as me that have with zero
| issues. Most of them even went about 6 months taking out
| and paying back advances on time just so the apps would
| start lending them even more, and only once they got it
| up to like $500 is when they'd take the money and "run".
| vuln wrote:
| 3. Dave reports your advance settlements to Equifax on a
| monthly cycle. It may take up to 2 cycles for this activity
| to be reflected in your credit history with Equifax. Terms
| apply, see dave.com/extra-cash for more details.
| Gordonjcp wrote:
| > nudes from Google image search
|
| thesenudesdonotexist.com
|
| If that doesn't already exist someone needs to make it.
| notjulianjaynes wrote:
| It's redirecting me to a site that's down, but appears to
| be associated with https://twitter.com/haremtoken
| Gordonjcp wrote:
| I mean I said it as a joke, but I can't say I'm surprised
| it's a valid registered domain.
| Biologist123 wrote:
| As I understand it, the way these apps work is:
|
| 1. The loan interest rate is set relative to a base default rate
| of a population sample of lenders. Therefore very easy to predict
| capital return, but means interest rates are usually high to
| cover high rate of defaults.
|
| 2. Defaulting loans are sold to local debt collectors for
| collection, who presumably are quite ruthless.
|
| 3. There are a few companies which white label the software
| needed to run this sort of scheme, so presumably the operator
| only has to drop in capital.
|
| If you have further information on how these businesses work,
| please respond!
| nerdponx wrote:
| The article also states that the apps deliberately obfuscate
| the costs (50% fee deducted from the loan amount) and terms
| (due in 7 days with 300% interest) of the loan.
| xtracto wrote:
| I built the system of reputale a Mexican startup that did
| online lending, so I have some insight:
|
| 1. This is a real problem in Mexico: people complain about high
| interest rates. However, for these kind of bullet loans , you
| see 30% of default in the FIRST loan. And back when we were
| starting on 2013-14 we had up to 70% of default due to fraud.
|
| So, with around 30% 1st default and about 15% 2nd default, we
| created revenue models that considered that, CAC, cost of funds
| and opex to define the interest rate... that very high APR
| really was not making people rich overnight.
|
| See, one problem in Mexico is that defaulting in a loan is not
| a crime, so theres legally NOTHING a lender can do to make you
| pay if you decide not to. The only repercussion is that you
| Credit Buro gets tainted, for 6 years. I've read of people that
| get a $100,000MXN loan and then just change phones, move
| apartments and wait for 6 years to clean their credit buro.
|
| 2. Default loans deffinitely are sold, for cents to the peso.
| But usually only the ones that are very old. Now, there are
| different types of collection agencies. Where I worked, we
| tried to he very reputable so we only chose the least shady
| ones. But in reality the only thing they could do is call you.
| Even calling your provided references is illegal. We actually
| stopped asking for references IIRC.
|
| 3. I dont know but dont doubt it. BUT, have a look at
| Fineract/MifosX: an open source loan management system. Its
| relatively easy to setup a lending operation using that. It's
| pretty comprehensive.
|
| All in all, there are very shady app/online lending services in
| Mexico. But it is nothing exclusive of the internet. Way before
| this, you heard of lenders that would do "collections" by
| getting some tough guys from prison (yup, in some prisons they
| can get out for the day like nothing, for some cash) and
| knocking at the debtor's door with baseball bats, wrenches or
| any other hard weapon . If you didn't pay they broke your legs
| or worse.
|
| That now it happens online is only the natural evolution of the
| shithole that is my country, unfortunately.
| ryandrake wrote:
| > See, one problem in Mexico is that defaulting in a loan is
| not a crime
|
| Nor should it be. Lenders like to conveniently forget: the
| risk of default is the reason they charge interest. If there
| was no risk of default, you couldn't really justify charging
| much interest, could you?
|
| Issuing a loan is a business arrangement, and default is one
| of several clearly defined ways of exiting that arrangement.
| Lenders have been very successful in their attempt to smear
| default as some sort of _moral_ failure. Like you 're some
| kind of bad person for making a sensible business decision!
| cornel_io wrote:
| Is the US any different? I'm pretty sure it's almost
| impossible to get a criminal conviction for bad debt these
| days. Maybe in a really extreme case like a deliberate
| fraud scheme that used defaulting as a key part of the
| process, but not a normal person just normally not repaying
| a loan.
| londons_explore wrote:
| To be vulnerable to this kind of extortion, there has to be
| something about your life, true or false, that you'd prefer
| people not say about you.
|
| I was thinking, and I don't think there is anything that I
| wouldn't want said to my friends or family.
|
| Everything that could be said is either plainly untrue, or
| wouldn't sufficiently bother me to change my behaviour.
|
| I wonder how other people get into positions where this isn't the
| case for them?
| pdntspa wrote:
| > there has to be something about your life, true or false
|
| There are plenty of false things that anyone can say about
| literally anyone, including you. If the lie is well-crafted
| enough, good luck defending against it.
| londons_explore wrote:
| Perhaps give some examples?
|
| Everything I can think of is either easily demonstrably
| false, or I just wouldn't care, because my friends and family
| either wouldn't believe the attacker over my word, or because
| it just isn't something that matters to me.
| Nextgrid wrote:
| I remember a quote that goes along the lines of "the amount
| of effort to refute bullshit is orders of magnitude higher
| than what is needed to produce it".
|
| They can essentially DoS you by spreading libellous
| statements which will take lots of effort to refute and
| encourage people to distance themselves from you as to not
| become collateral damage themselves.
| toast0 wrote:
| I heard londons_explore has a secret repository of
| PHP/Java(script)/Lisp/C(++)/Ruby/Visual Basic and doesn't
| want anyone to know?
| londons_explore wrote:
| News to me! I guess it's so secret I've forgotten it!
|
| ---
|
| I guess that falls in the category of 'rumours of the
| existence of a thing that doesn't exist and is
| embarrassing'. Obviously it's very hard to disprove such
| a rumour, but it is quite easy to just say "I don't care,
| and you shouldn't either" as a response.
| dymk wrote:
| Be gay and live in most parts of the world
| npteljes wrote:
| One of these vulnerabilities is living in Mexico. From TFA:
|
| "He starts getting this very, very graphic images of
| dismembered bodies. You know, real images probably taken from
| those websites that have pictures from drug dealers and the
| terrible things they do here in Mexico.
|
| So he's being sent this true, these real pictures. And of
| course any Mexican will immediately get very scared, very
| intimidating, thinking that organized crime is behind
| something. You don't want to be their target. You start fearing
| for your life. They have your address. They have information on
| your children, your wife, he's very scared."
| josephcsible wrote:
| More proof that Google doesn't care about you: they ban call
| recording apps from the Play Store but not apps like these ones.
| xtracto wrote:
| It's strange and crazy: back in 2014 I worked building what we
| thought was a reputable online lending platform in Mexico. We
| were the first online lender. And we were at least _trying_ to
| do things right.
|
| Nevertheless, Google banned us from AdWords/Adsense: we could
| not advertise our services even if people searched for the
| company name. The list of banned businesses was: porn,
| drug,guns and us... that's how "low" was the stance of the
| business we were doing.
|
| Ff to this day it seems The Goog has seen good money in this
| vertical , so that it turns a blind eye to fraud.
| fzfaa wrote:
| Why should they blanket ban loan apps?
| josephcsible wrote:
| They shouldn't blanket ban all loan apps, but they should ban
| ones that steal all of your data when you open them, that lie
| about their terms, or that consider extortion or defamation
| to be acceptable debt collection methods.
| tjpnz wrote:
| Similar situation on YouTube. Posting historical footage of the
| Apollo program nets you Copyright strikes while actual
| criminals can livestream crypto scams with utter impunity.
| prvit wrote:
| This is nonsense though. Criminals livestreaming crypto scams
| go through hundreds of hacked accounts every day, their stuff
| is constantly getting taken down.
|
| It's just their incentive structure which is different than
| that of the Apollo program footage uploader.
| tjpnz wrote:
| Except they're not all getting taken down. I've observed
| multiple fake Elon Musk/SpaceX accounts with histories
| going back months.
| Nextgrid wrote:
| > go through hundreds of hacked accounts every day, their
| stuff is constantly getting taken down.
|
| YouTube has very advanced image & voice recognition
| technology that is very efficient at flagging (and
| demonetizing) certain content merely based on trigger words
| (terrible for science channels that show
| fire/explosions/etc even though there is no violence
| involved).
|
| If crypto is such a popular target, maybe introduce an
| extra verification step (that requires uploading ID/etc) to
| whitelist channels for crypto-related content, and any
| other channels that have not done the verification (because
| they don't plan to upload crypto content) can't upload
| anything that matches those words? This would at least
| prevent non-crypto-related channels from being hacked and
| suddenly starting a crypto scam livestream.
|
| The reason it's not done of course is because Google bears
| no liability (despite promoting these scams in the
| "recommended" section) and the scammers & victims still
| generate "engagement" and watch ads.
| prvit wrote:
| >YouTube has very advanced image & voice recognition
| technology that is very efficient at flagging (and
| demonetizing) certain content merely based on trigger
| words (terrible for science channels that show
| fire/explosions/etc even though there is no violence
| involved).
|
| Or perhaps the technology isn't that advanced, and
| cryptocurrency scammers have stronger incentives to work
| around it than legitimate channels?
| throw_m239339 wrote:
| I remember during the PS5 reveal stream, Youtube was
| recommending me crypto scam live streams promising free PS5
| and Youtube was taking down none of them. Youtube was
| actively recommending me scams, I don't care how flawed
| their recommendation algorithm is, it was unacceptable.
| leach wrote:
| Be aware of other scams too, some women are sending nudes to
| people and screenshoting theirs in hopes of extorting.
|
| Really have to just stay frosty all the time now.
| CharlesW wrote:
| "Sending nudes" is the "committing private keys to a public
| repo" of dating.
| leach wrote:
| Yep, pretty much. Crazy what some people will do to just not
| work a regular job.
| xtracto wrote:
| Tangentially related to part of the text in the article : A lot
| of these and other apps ask you to share documents, camera, mic,
| gps, and other access from your phone . The problem is that
| several of those wont work if you reject that access. Even worse,
| Mexican government passed a law that made it compulsory to
| monitor your GPS position for Banks and other money related
| companies, so doing relatively common bank transactions require
| you to lose your privacy.
|
| Given these blatant privacy violations, I wish mobiles had the
| option to "mock" data for those sensors. Share files? Sure, give
| access to a jail like bkank file system. Share mic? Sure, give
| access to a white noise generated stream, same with video/camera.
| Share gps? Give some mock location, etc.
|
| That's what a privacy enabled device would do.
|
| I wonder why hasn't this even been implemented at the browser
| level.
| airtonix wrote:
| yeah, just launch a android virtual machine.
| metadat wrote:
| Won't work for any bank apps which require a passing check
| through the phone cryptographic integrity chip.
| User23 wrote:
| Isn't this standard for educational software too now? My
| understanding is you can't take a test remotely unless it's on
| a rooted system.
| _HMCB_ wrote:
| GPS position sharing is a little frightening isn't it? I mean,
| if some of these apps are cartel or organized crime related,
| this could become a real physical threat.
| bornfreddy wrote:
| Afaik this is what MicroG does, though their aim is different.
| They mimic Google services responses so that the apps work
| without G proprietary libraries and services but I don't think
| privacy is their stated goal (I'd love for someone to correct
| me if I'm wrong, not using MicroG myself).
| leaflets2 wrote:
| I wonder if then the politicians would make it illegal to fake
| one's GPS location or just have the ability to fake it
| donohoe wrote:
| It references this story which to me is very troubling:
| Contreras told the story of one woman who fell victim to
| these schemes named Maria. After Maria took a loan, agents
| for the app iFectivo sent her 13-year-old daughter, her
| cousin, her nieces, and more than a dozen of her other
| contacts a picture of a nude woman with her face
| photoshopped on. iFectivo told her contacts she had become
| a prostitute to pay her debts.
|
| Full story (referenced in TechPolicy article):
| https://restofworld.org/2022/mexico-scam-loan-apps/
|
| Troubling, unethical, illegal stuff.
| api wrote:
| Stuff like this is what disabused me long ago of extreme forms
| of libertarianism. Most libertarians and also some defund the
| police types on the left are just woefully naive about what
| monsters people can be. Turns out we need a very active police
| force and regulatory state or people will almost literally eat
| the vulnerable.
| fzfaa wrote:
| What calls my attention of this story is that employees of that
| app would go through the trouble of creating a credible shopped
| image of her and sending it to all of her contacts. Do they
| have almost no clients, was the loan particularly big, do they
| have loads of employees just to do this...?
| jasonwatkinspdx wrote:
| These scams are run as boiler rooms, where everyone is
| working on commission. Actually my understanding is it's a
| bit more of a pyramid scheme, where the senior folks get a
| cut of everything, closers get a cut from openers, etc.
|
| But anyhow, point is these scammers are often motivated to go
| to considerable effort, because the ultimate prize is a
| pretty big cut of someone's life savings. But of course only
| a few ever achieve that. The rest will just try for a while
| then churn out, while the ultimate owners count their money.
| thatguy0900 wrote:
| It is not hard at all to create a credible head swap photo
| shopped image. Probably a one man job to do it to everyone
| they want to do it too.
| bornfreddy wrote:
| With ML, it can be (unfortunately, in this case) automated.
| One victim - lots of work. Thousands - almost the same
| amount.
| IncRnd wrote:
| Clearly, that is the leverage the lenders have over their
| clientele, instead of credit reporting or asset seizure.
| duxup wrote:
| I wonder if there is a personal aspect to this, not just
| being scammers but also kinda creepy people / maybe already
| familiar with harassing people/ know people who will do it
| for them.
| nyolfen wrote:
| alternatively, it was just a real photo from her phone
| toxicFork wrote:
| It was just the next jira ticket
| AlbertCory wrote:
| While there is plenty of room for doubt about micro-lending (see
| [1] which I hosted, by Hugh Sinclair, a guy who's actually been
| there in the field), I don't think it's fair to call these scams
| "micro-lending." Maybe they're taking advantage of the favorite
| PR that micro-loans get.
|
| In the micro-lending plans that Oxfam and other legit charities
| back, borrowers meet in person with the lenders, and no hounding
| takes place. Most of them pay their loans back promptly.
|
| However, the stories about "poor woman buys a sewing machine;
| lifts her family out of poverty" are mostly just feel-good PR to
| milk the donors. More often, they buy a stall in the market to
| sell produce, and there's only so many stalls the market can
| support.
|
| The real scandal of micro-lending, as Hugh explains, is that the
| interest rates are scandalously high, and the lenders are mostly
| using it as a way to buy SUVs and milk the First World donors who
| want to feel good.
|
| These scams are _not_ "micro-lending."
|
| [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rhdZ2RfmiXo
| lupire wrote:
| syntaxing wrote:
| 100% serious question, does iOS prevent this? Or is the
| demographic of iOS vastly different?
| duskwuff wrote:
| Apple does allow personal loan apps, but sets limits on
| interest rates and repayment deadlines (<=36% APR, >=60 days)
| which effectively ban the type of app at issue here. Requesting
| permissions to all of the user's contacts and photos in a loan
| app wouldn't pass review, either, and the fact that Apple
| doesn't permit sideloading is an effective block against the
| "subway flyer" tactic.
| netr0ute wrote:
| If you are getting a quick, small loan in Mexico, you probably
| don't have an iPhone because they cost multiple times as much
| as an Android one. So, it's not worth it to make these apps for
| iPhone users because that demographic is totally the opposite
| of what you want.
| xtracto wrote:
| I dont know why you are being downvoted. I know what You
| wrote is fact. I worked building the systems of such an
| online lending company in Mexico, and I had to _fire_ my only
| iOS developer because we saw we dint have enough demand in
| those devices.
|
| Shootout to Jesus, the iOS developer & DJ. He was such a
| great guy to work for, and really killed me to let him go. He
| is a great guy :)
| photochemsyn wrote:
| The whole microloan program has been hyped for over a decade now,
| but as this story shows, the outcome more often than not has been
| more like mafia loansharking than actual economic development
| under the entrepreneurial free-market model. This can be
| explained via the notion that "enterpreneurs without lawyers end
| up getting screwed over more often than not" and the people who
| get these microloans just can't afford to hire lawyers to protect
| themselves.
|
| While it's a right-wing trope, the microloan program has been
| heavily promoted by the likes of the Soros-Omidyar crowd, with
| the typical humanitarian patina covering what's really just
| predatory capitalism:
|
| _" We have seen what microloans can do at the individual level
| and are excited about bringing that same opportunity to small and
| medium businesses," said Jim Bunch, Director of Investments at
| Omidyar Network._
|
| Here's another expository write-up of the phenomenon, in
| Cambodia. Looks very similar to India, Mexico, etc.
|
| https://www.aljazeera.com/economy/2019/8/6/cambodias-micro-l...
|
| [edit] for more on background on this global trend and its
| origins (2007)
|
| > "Microcredit is the newest silver bullet for alleviating
| poverty. Wealthy philanthropists such as financier George Soros
| and eBay co-founder Pierre Omidyar are pledging hundreds of
| millions of dollars to the microcredit movement. Global
| commercial banks, such as Citigroup Inc. and Deutsche Bank AG,
| are establishing microfinance funds. Even people with just a few
| dollars to spare are going to microcredit Web sites and, with a
| click of the mouse, lending money to rice farmers in Ecuador and
| auto mechanics in Togo... Wealthy philanthropists, banks, and
| online donors aren't the only ones fascinated with microcredit.
| The United Nations designated 2005 as the International Year of
| Microcredit..."
|
| https://ssir.org/articles/entry/microfinance_misses_its_mark
| unknownaccount wrote:
| The micro loan system works fine in USA & countries that
| actually enforce laws against extortion. I've gotten close to
| 0% interest rate instant loans for $100- $200 with Dave,
| Earnin, and MoneyLion. Been in the red for many months and
| never received even 1 threatening phone call, text, or letter.
| These apps saved me in a pinch and had seemingly no downside.
| AlbertCory wrote:
| Whatever else it is, it isn't new.
|
| The Grameen Bank in Bangladesh was first publicized in the West
| 20 years ago.
|
| It also isn't "predatory capitalism." Rather, it's NGO-ism.
| It's charitable donations from liberal-minded people that drive
| it.
| photochemsyn wrote:
| Every time I hear these notions of well-meaning billionaire
| philanthropists set on making the world a better place, I'm
| unavoidably reminded of this short passage in Conrad's Heart
| of Darkness:
|
| > "It appeared, however, I was also one of the Workers, with
| a capital--you know. Something like an emissary of light,
| something like a lower sort of apostle. There had been a lot
| of such rot let loose in print and talk just about that time,
| and the excellent woman, living right in the rush of all that
| humbug, got carried off her feet. She talked about 'weaning
| those ignorant millions from their horrid ways,' till, upon
| my word, she made me quite uncomfortable. I ventured to hint
| that the Company was run for profit."
|
| If it was real philanthropy, the model would be one of no-
| strings-attached grants, delivered via a competitive process
| open to people in disadvantaged communities - not a model
| based on loans which must be repayed with interest, with
| collection agencies lurking in the background to go after
| defaulters in this manner.
|
| This is why people are better off cutting deals with the
| hard-nosed businesspeople who spell out risks and conditions
| upfront, rather than the liberal do-gooder snake-oil
| merchants with their ulterior motives.
| AlbertCory wrote:
| I'm reminded of Mrs. Jellyby in _Bleak House_ , myself, but
| yeah.
|
| The original idea of Grameen Bank was a circle of poor
| people (all women, usually) who jointly promise to each
| other to repay the loans. The fact that it's a loan, your
| friends are monitoring you, and you have to pay it back
| means that you have to take it seriously. It was hard to
| argue with that, 20 years ago.
|
| Over time, though, it's morphed into "Big Western
| philanthropic institution sweeps in, spends 24 hours,
| leaves, and writes a check. Then the locals hire more staff
| and buy another SUV."
| [deleted]
| sandGorgon wrote:
| > _Last year, a Reuters investigation by Rina Chandran found
| dozens of lending apps in India that appeared to violate Google's
| policies against short-term loans_
|
| just FYI - this is contrary to the product and the law of India.
| Google is not the regulator.
|
| For example Manndeshi foundation runs 24 hour loans for women
| vegetable sellers - who take a loan in the morning and pay back
| at night.
|
| Google Play "ethics" is US-centric. It does not take into account
| the realities of the local demographics. for example sub 90 day
| loans are illegal on Play - a lot of microfinance in
| India/Bangladesh is sub 90 days.
|
| What ends up happening is demonisation of everyone not playing by
| Google Play's rules and gets termed as "predatory".
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