[HN Gopher] On being tired
___________________________________________________________________
On being tired
Author : kimmk
Score : 144 points
Date : 2022-08-13 15:10 UTC (7 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (jukkaniiranen.com)
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| sixothree wrote:
| Interesting this would be posted on a Saturday. Yet another
| Saturday I'm working hard to meet a deadline.
| SnowHill9902 wrote:
| The last Lubavitcher rab used to say "so what?" when asked if he
| was not tired working late into the night.
| garganzol wrote:
| Fatigue is not only a mental thing as many assume. What really
| happens is our cells are gradually accumulating Reactive Oxygen
| Species (ROS) while we are awake, and when a certain threshold of
| ROS is reached, we feel tiredness.
|
| This is a defensive mechanism of a living organism to keep ROS
| levels at bay. But what happens if one ignores the fatigue? ROS
| cellular levels will continue to climb up to the point of a
| pathological cell destruction. The thing is ROS are chemically
| active and when there are too much of them, you are asking for
| problems. Such as: broken enzymes in mitochondria, overoxidized
| lipids, damages of DNA and mtDNA - it all starts to accumulate.
| This is when a fatigue may gradually transform into one of the
| physical diseases. Cardio-vascular problems, T2DM, cognitive
| impairment, ME/CFS. The list go on and on [1].
|
| So, if you often feel tired then you should be very aware of the
| underlying biochemical processes. It's all mental until it's
| physical and hardly reversible.
|
| [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sleep_deprivation
|
| [2] https://hms.harvard.edu/news/sleep-death-gut
| copperx wrote:
| I've never heard of this before. Is this well known? Do ROS go
| away after sleeping?
| garganzol wrote:
| This is relatively well known [1]. ROS normally go away after
| sleeping, and this one of the reasons we need sleep.
|
| But. If you are past a certain threshold, ROS can do so much
| damage that it starts to affect cellular ATP production,
| leading to a tissue hypoxia. When this happens, it leads to
| onset of an acquired mitochondrial dysfunction. This is a
| pathological state that is characterized by a lingering
| fatigue as its main hallmark sign. Such fatigue does not go
| away after sleeping.
|
| But usually it is not like 0 or 1. A person may have
| something in between and live without even knowing it,
| thinking that it's all just mental or age-related.
|
| [1] https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/27285492/
| copperx wrote:
| I wish I had heard about this earlier. I'm now 40 and my
| sleep patterns are not healthy. I don't have insomnia, I'm
| just used to sleeping past the point of total exhaustion.
| That cannot be good given what you say about ROS :(
| powersnail wrote:
| As I age, I've learned to distinguish "not being excited"
| (languor) and "being tired" (exhaustion), which to my younger
| self felt like the same thing. The former is not always caused by
| a lack of energy, but also excessive idleness, especially if I'm
| doing things that requires attention but also isn't
| intellectually stimulating.
|
| When the author refers to "normal tired" and "dead tired", I
| think that echoes with my two states. I don't quite think of them
| as existing on a scale, but the experiences sound similar.
|
| Doing stimulating things (exercise, reading aloud, singing) can
| usually bring me out of the state of languor. Just getting that
| adrenaline rush is enough to jolt me back to life (and thus I
| don't think of it as recharging; more like a jump start).
|
| If I'm exhausted, I can feel gravity in my joints, and I'll have
| to rest. Regular sleep, exercises, and generally keeping a good
| health is the only way I can combat exhaustion.
| cannam wrote:
| I think you're right to distinguish between kinds of tiredness,
| rather than levels.
|
| The article, good and thoughtful as it is, suggests that a
| dead-tired state is somehow just more tired than normally
| tired. But there is also a tiredness in which you are keen and
| ready and would be happy to get moving with something, but your
| mind and body are unable to do the real work competently - the
| analysis or the lifting. This is like your exhaustion, without
| your languor.
|
| I had this feeling a lot during 2020 and put it down to a
| justifiable mental response to the times (I hadn't had Covid,
| as far as I knew) until, slightly to my surprise, I was
| diagnosed with a vitamin B12 deficiency which turned out to
| explain pretty much the whole thing.
| rubicon33 wrote:
| This hits the nail on the head for me. Interestingly, I only
| came to this realization later in life as well. I've always
| thought of myself as "tired" but the real problem is I require
| an exceptionally high stimulating environment to excite me out
| of langour.
|
| Exercise. Video games. Occasionally (rarely?) an academic
| subject that I am good at and interests me can also elicit this
| excitement and energy.
|
| But in general I go about life in a rather "depressed" mode.
| Most tasks are done not because I feel that little kick to do
| them, but because I know if I don't my life will be worse.
|
| I often wish I was more naturally excited by things which are
| less stimulating. I waste a lot of time just satisfying that
| part of my brain that craves stimulation and novelty. It's
| really a shame, because I truly do wish I were spending that
| time on productive or meaningful pursuits.
|
| I've wondered over the years why I'm this way, when I work
| among peers who seem to get stimulation from reading such
| arcane topics as linux kernel development.
|
| I can only assume in my case the root cause is video games +
| the internet. I'm in my mid 30s and have had a video game in my
| hand since I was 5 or 6 (original game boy). If my spare time
| wasn't spent playing video games, it's spent on the lottery
| game of social media / the internet over the years. I'm only
| just starting to work on undoing the damage these mediums have
| done to my motivation and stimulation center. If I'm honest,
| part of me doubts I'll ever be able to be genuinely excited
| about some of the hard work that I wish I could be excited
| about, but the thought of living the rest of my life
| essentially a slave to stimulating media is a depressing
| thought. I want to create interesting things, which means I
| need to be genuinely excited to learn new subjects.
| jmfldn wrote:
| Sorry to hear. I think you're doing the right thing in trying
| to see if you can cope with lower stimulation gradually. Try
| lower stimulation hobbies, reading novels, going for long
| walks etc. Maybe you'll find that you can somewhat
| recondition yourself gradually. There really is a great joy
| in enjoying simple pleasures without distraction. Don't fret
| if you can't get there quickly or have a different baseline
| too, there's nothing wrong with being a certain way but,
| speaking from personal experience and general life
| experience, many of us seem addicted to things to one degree
| or another these days. Not least things involving screens.
|
| Since you mentioned the word depressed, it can't do any harm
| to talk to a mental health professional too if you're
| concerned in any way about your emotional state. It may or
| may not be needed but that could also be a factor.
| moonshinefe wrote:
| This was an interesting post to me because I've never heard of
| that distinction, and I think I'm similar. I've often had
| issues with "being tired" but it's probably more accurately
| what you call languor. I'll have times when I'm bored
| throughout the day and sleepy but then a video game or stubborn
| coding problem will get me engaged and I'll suddenly spend
| hours and not feel tired at all while the time flies.
|
| Likewise, I do find exercise helps when I do force myself to do
| it. The issue is often I have days where I struggle to motivate
| myself to do stimulating things, but perhaps that's another
| issue. Not really sure what could help there.
| asdfqwertzxcv wrote:
| When I hit the motivation plateau like you're describing,
| simply going for a walk or going to the gym pulls me out of
| it rather quickly. By the time I'm done, I come back and am
| motivated to work on high-impact things. I've found that
| moving my body and taking a break from dicking around online,
| or doing low-quality "productive" tasks with little
| consequence is the key there.
| BeFlatXIII wrote:
| I have to agree. Exercise and music-making both reenergize me
| out of a state of mental exhaustion after work.
|
| Physical exhaustion is different: its only cure is a nap.
| xyzzy_plugh wrote:
| I could not relate less. I'm guessing you don't have ADHD?
|
| I wish lack of excitement and being tired felt the way you
| describe, but if anything _it 's the opposite_.
|
| I get more dopamine from being exhausted physically but
| overextending myself than I do from being bored, much to my
| misery.
| comboy wrote:
| These being tired and fighting exhaustion with exercise threads
| must be a dread to read for anybody who works hard physically.
|
| But I'm in the same privileged or at least not working
| physically position and I found most correlation with number of
| tasks I'm focusing on.
|
| If there are too many things at once or none of them stands
| out, I'm more likely to feel tired.
|
| If I'm focusing on a specific thing associated with specific
| action with no other things on my mind, it seems to be getting
| done effortlessly with high energy state.
| klysm wrote:
| I feel like for me that's because progress in one direction
| implies lack of progress in other directions of concern.
| That's scales with the number of things you're trying to get
| done.
|
| That's why I think long running work streams with focus are
| so important. Context switching has cost beyond just the
| startup and tear down.
| timdp wrote:
| Photo credit: me. Small world!
|
| https://unsplash.com/photos/SBYsc1gsA-M
| Daunk wrote:
| That's amazing, heh.
| Silverback_VII wrote:
| I believe that there is a general tiredness affecting large parts
| of the population. Maybe some side effects of covid-19 / the
| vaccines or maybe it's completely unrelated and more
| psychological in nature like lack of deeper meaning in most
| people's lives.
|
| All I know is that you have to fight it. this tiredness doesn't
| go away with more rest. On the contrary, your self-esteem will
| take a hit and you will internalise your lack of power.
| rolisz wrote:
| How do you fight it?
|
| I had COVID in March 2020 and I feel like ever since then I'm
| more tired all the time, even if I sleep enough.
| the_only_law wrote:
| I didn't get COVID till this year. I was vaccinated, and
| while it was the most sick I've felt in years, it was
| relatively short, the worst symptoms only lasting about a
| day.
|
| A few day's afterwards, I went out to the mailbox to grab my
| mail. This is maybe a 5min walk. I was panting heavily by the
| time I got back. I used to walk 12+ miles a day in shit heat
| and I've never been particularly in shape, so that was
| worrying.
|
| I haven't noticed any increase in my tiredness, but my sleep
| schedule had been fucked long before COVID existed.
| garganzol wrote:
| Take a look at [1]. It may have some actionable explanations
| on what's going on with you.
|
| It all starts with lingering fatigue.
|
| [1] https://www.hormonesmatter.com/recovering-from-post-
| covid-mi...
| skrebbel wrote:
| This is dangerous advice, it really depends on what you're
| tired from and you can't apply it generally.
|
| Eg tiredness caused by actual, diagnosed, Long Covid often
| _does_ go away with more rest. In fact, even a tiny bit too
| much, too soon, can severely set back your recovery. To my
| understanding, parent 's "just will yourself back into shape"
| advice is the exact opposite of what long covid patients should
| be told.
|
| (Source: wife has long covid since January; her own experiences
| + what her therapists say from research and other clients)
| Silverback_VII wrote:
| To let you drag down by outer circumstances is more dangerous
| in my opinion. When you start running even if you would
| rather lay in bed that generates a lot of self-esteem. The
| resulting positive attitude may even be good for your immune
| system.
|
| In some unfortunate situations you need to take some risks to
| get out of it.
| skrebbel wrote:
| It's not always about attitude, sometimes it's about
| physical healing. Sometimes, your body really just needs
| rest. Stop telling people stuff you don't know enough
| about.
| Silverback_VII wrote:
| I know enough about people focusing too much on their
| wellbeing. You can trust me. Your mindset is more harmful
| than mine.
|
| Sometimes the body needs rest, it's certainly true, but
| humans are adapted to a rather unforgiving environment in
| which you had to function even when in bad shape. Mind
| and body are connected.
| yibg wrote:
| It's the blanket "just walk it off" advise that's
| dangerous. No amount of mind over matter will let you
| walk off a broken leg.
| 331c8c71 wrote:
| Not overdoing it (to start with) is by far preferable
| tbh. My experience, for instance, is that inflamed
| achilles takes very long time (years) to go back to
| normal. To get it inflamed was fairly easy: resuming
| jogging a bit too swiftly after a winter break.
| RhodesianHunter wrote:
| I think it has something to do with an accumulation of
| microplastics and/or PFAS/PFOS in our bodies. One of these
| things is going to be our generation's version of leaded
| gasoline.
| 331c8c71 wrote:
| Hard to be sure tbh. I thought I had something like that since
| I had covid at least twice. Now I am on vacation next to sea
| and i wouldn't say I lack energy.
|
| I think for some the daily grind causes noticeable fatigue
| fairly quickly (if not managed actively).
| taink wrote:
| This 'general tiredness' you're referring to seems to be linked
| to depressive states, whereas the blog post is more about
| exhausting yourself by trying to solve every little challenge
| you come across:
|
| > _Another key observation is that this tiredness I've been
| feeling is different from depression. I've experienced the
| latter in the past on a few occasions and while there are
| similarities in how they impact your life, I'd put them in
| different buckets. If only for the reason that I haven't
| encountered these current experiences before._
|
| Maybe it's a little bit of both; lack of motivation gradually
| eating at your reserves and transforming you into a generally
| tired person.
| ceezee wrote:
| friendly reminder that feeling chronically fatigued or tired is
| not normal. People experiencing this should consider getting
| tested for sleep apnea.
| kiririn wrote:
| Concussion is a trial by fire of discovering what is truly not
| taking up mental energy. In the acute phase you go from having
| 16+ hours of it per day to 10 minutes. The answer is pretty much
| just staring at a blank wall. Anything else is costly to a degree
| plonk wrote:
| I had a mild one that put me out of work for a week. I wonder
| if it's really a lack of energy, or just the body deterring you
| from any activity by pretending to be tired, so the brain can
| heal faster.
| kradeelav wrote:
| Agreed - surgeries too. Between waiting for the anesthesia to
| work itself out and the body recovering from the shock of it,
| it can be a wallop to the energy reserves. Recently slept like
| 20 hours a day for a day or two after a comparatively mild one.
| ranprieur wrote:
| I find it strange that he takes for granted that activities
| should "give back energy", and that you have to be dead tired for
| that not to happen.
|
| Personally, even when I have good energy, almost everything I do
| drains it and doesn't give it back, until I sleep to recharge.
|
| Maybe this is the difference between highly motivated people and
| the rest of us, that they find it normal for activities to give
| back energy.
| majormajor wrote:
| Regarding mental energy - when I'm in an "everything is
| draining" state I consider that a depressive episode. When not
| in one of those, there are hobbies I find rewarding and
| stimulating (some even physical-energy-producing, like eating
| or drinking coffee). Or it can even be as simple/"idle" as
| "that was a fun run through Returnal, I feel pumped up."
| [deleted]
| Silverback_VII wrote:
| Cardiovascular exercise takes more energy than it gives at the
| beginning but your body will get less easily tired further down
| the road. So yes, activities can give energy.
| jdthedisciple wrote:
| Not sure why you're being downvoted because it seems true to
| me:
|
| For example, starting out with running feels _very_
| exhaustive and draining but once you 're in the habit of it
| you overall feel more energetic I believe.
| garganzol wrote:
| This is true and was proven by numerous scientific
| observations. Mild physical and intellectual activities
| indeed improve cellular energy levels to some degree.
|
| Nobody really knows how it works exactly, but it's a fact.
| lysergia wrote:
| Not gonna lie, I get nights where I don't sleep at all and my
| mind 'glows' with thoughts and the thoughts are intrusive, almost
| an imposter on my mind. This is a good time to write and take
| notes. Missing a night's sleep is detrimental to the next day
| where all the things that would normally excite me are boring as
| hell. All I can do is exist during the day and I feel slightly
| drunk and can't do anything that requires good dexterity. It's
| horrible. Then I make up the sleep debt by falling asleep on that
| day, and the feeling of rejuvenation is tremendous and I can
| function. I've talked to my doctor about those nights where my
| mind 'glows' with activity and I was diagnosed with mild
| psychosis. Luckily it's treatable with meds, so there is that.
| plonk wrote:
| That's funny, I have the same nights sometimes and never
| thought of asking a doctor. Seems it's just what happens when
| we stay too inactive for a few days or mess up our sleep
| schedule.
|
| Was that the only symptom for the psychosis diagnosis?
| Daunk wrote:
| I also get this "glow" sometimes and can't sleep for an entire
| night. I feel like I just want to jump out of bed and do
| everything at once. But I keep telling myself that "I'll make
| sure to do it tomorrow" but that seems to almost never happen.
| I don't mind these sleepless nights, but I wish the "glow" came
| during the day instead.
| s5300 wrote:
| If you're comfortable saying, could I ask which meds you were
| prescribed?
| angarg12 wrote:
| I've spent the last couple of years at the two bottom levels of
| that scale. It took me an embarrassingly long time to realize one
| of the root causes: my wife and I have fundamentally different
| personalities that are at odds with each other.
|
| My wife is an extrovert. She is energized by going out, visiting
| places, doing things, meeting people.
|
| I'm an introvert. I get energized by staying in, reading a book,
| watching a movie, spending time by myself.
|
| This creates tension every weekend when we need to negotiated
| what to do. This friction is weary by itself, but then the
| outcome almost always makes someone unhappy. Most weekends rather
| than recharging for the rest of the week, I end up more tired
| than I started.
|
| Not sure how well this will generalize but if you find yourself
| in those bottom steps it's worth it to do some introspection and
| audit how you spend your time.
| RhodesianHunter wrote:
| Wait till you have kids. Or rather: folks who don't have kids
| yet, recognize that when you do you pretty much lose your
| weekends to doing things with them. Especially so when you have
| more than one. I'm not saying this is a bad thing, but it does
| seem to be a thing that people don't really appreciate until
| they're knee deep in it.
|
| This often leads to the sort of deep tiredness described in
| this post for introverted parents.
| rubicon33 wrote:
| If her extroversion isn't strictly social, maybe you kind find
| activities that allow you both to recharge.
|
| A camping trip for example could allow you an opportunity to
| read, and enjoy nature, and give her the opportunity to explore
| (hike, kayak, forage, etc.)
|
| If that doesn't work you may also just consider doing different
| things on most weekends, and making explicit time for each
| other for a nice dinner, a movie, or something more
| traditionally 'dating'.
| asdfqwertzxcv wrote:
| This is how my partner and I negotiated this.
|
| We're opposite in a lot of things we prefer: - They love
| traveling w/ crazy schedules, bouncing around timezones for a
| week or two at a time. - Sleeping and waking late. - Going
| out late partying with friends. - Spin classes or yoga with
| club music blasting. - When not doing the above, they stay
| home doing literally nothing but watching Netflix or reading
| in bed for days on end.
|
| They are either fully on, or fully off. I find this
| exhausting and/or boring as hell, depending on what mode
| they're in.
|
| I prefer the opposite in a lot of ways: - Staying local,
| maybe taking a day or weekend trip every few months, and
| international trip once a year. - Waking and sleeping early -
| Time alone every day - Working on personal projects or
| hobbies - Lifting weights or exercising while listening to
| stimulating lectures or books. - Having hours-long meals with
| friends or family once or twice a week.
|
| We've found that instead of trying to do things we don't like
| to appease the other. We find things that overlap for us and
| make it a point to do them together whenever possible: -
| Cooking some meals at home - Walking our dog around the
| neighborhood - Going on day or weekend trips once in a while.
| - Meals w/ friends and family, when I peel off to go home
| after, when they go meet up with friends to burn the midnight
| oil.
| tartoran wrote:
| Find myself there as well somehow though I wouldn't call my
| partner 100% extroverted, Im the onr more on the introverted
| side. To me a mind trick is to attempt a balance. For instance
| to realize that it would do me good to be outdoors during which
| I could still do my introverted stuff (introspection) during
| which I also do some phisical exercise. I just can't be 100%
| within my head all the time, I still have to interact with them
| from time to time or escape for a walk from time to time. Some
| times Im out with my family and realize the energy is too good
| to be missed, this moment has to be taken advantage of, so I
| join in whatever we're doing. I usually reserve one day a week
| of complete me time during which I paint completely isolated
| from others and distractions. Just knowing there's an escape
| valve I can sacrifice a day for another. Im also getting a some
| dose of introverted recharge while working, while doing
| repetitive work on autopilot but I have to admit there's a bit
| of energy drain there too with the necessary socialization.
| atentaten wrote:
| What was your solution to the problem of negotiating with your
| wife about what to do on the weekends?
| ipaddr wrote:
| Get kids
| baby wrote:
| accept it, and enjoy the fact that it is making your life
| better. You could be dating an introvert and you could both
| be looking at your computers over the weekend.
| jrms wrote:
| what wife?
| [deleted]
| tpetry wrote:
| Friends of mine are mixing weekends. They do one together
| followed by one each doing things by their own they want to
| do. So the introvert can e.g. stay home and refresh while the
| extrovert is again meeting people.
| hu3 wrote:
| I've came to this same realization after years next to an
| extrovert.
|
| It's obvious once you understand the differences but until then
| it's pure misery regardless of how much you love the person.
|
| You're often either unhappy or making them unhappy for no
| apparent reason.
| beebeepka wrote:
| I am a fairly energetic person. Yes, things have been slowing
| down as I age but my spirit is young.
|
| I switched careers several times. About 2 years into my dev role
| I realized that I do have a relatively fixed amount of cognitive
| stamina. Took me a while to actually get it.
|
| 1. Partying all night has an extremely bad effect due to several
| factors I better not mention directly
|
| 2. Competitive gaming is sucking the life out of me. I have
| taught myself to avoid playing seriously anything Quake or
| StarCraft as these high skill 1vs1 games naturally attract other
| wannabes just like my younger self. It's all very demanding and I
| always end up either taking a beating or 10, or sacrificing the
| next few work days.
|
| I have learned to take the ego hits and suffer horrible
| humiliations in the games that I love.
|
| In any case, what never fails to charge and heal me is going to
| nature. Does wonders to body and mind
| glitchc wrote:
| People still play Quake?
| skrebbel wrote:
| Of course. It's like honey, it never goes bad.
| boredemployee wrote:
| I do (qw)
| hawski wrote:
| I am pretty sure people still play Pong, Arkanoid and Doom
| for that matter. Here, go play Spacewar! -
| https://archive.org/details/pdp1_spacewar (read instructions
| below, it is not obvious though, like press LCtrl+Enter to
| load)
| the_only_law wrote:
| > Partying all night has an extremely bad effect due to several
| factors I better not mention directly
|
| Unfortunately there's no time to party during the day.
| mupuff1234 wrote:
| But you can party in the evening and be in bed by midnight.
| samsquire wrote:
| In the UK it is really hot and we are in drought.
|
| I am tired. I hope to get my energy levels back up as all I want
| to do is sleep.
|
| I take iron liquid supplement but I don't know what's causing it.
|
| Some days I have energy and can be on the computer until late.
| Other days I don't want to know.
| garganzol wrote:
| It can also be vitamin B1 or B12 deficiency.
| jjtheblunt wrote:
| taking iron supplements for a male is dangerous, my doctor told
| me years ago, for whatever that is worth
| williamtrask wrote:
| As someone also in the U.K., check your CO2 levels where you
| sleep and work.
| jorgesborges wrote:
| When I'm falling asleep too late, exhausted, I say to myself:
| I'll be alright tomorrow, just tired. I've been tired many days
| and I got through just fine. It doesn't solve the dead battery
| problem but it removes the anxiety around not getting enough
| sleep or dreading the next day.
| webosdude wrote:
| Sometime back one of mentors mentioned about
| https://theenergyproject.com/. I haven't gone through the program
| myself but the way he summarized is, important aspect of managing
| your work is also managing your energy levels through the
| day/week/year. Identify the work which requires more
| energy(mental/physical) and get that done first. Later on
| identify the things which give you more motivation or joy which
| in turn provide more energy. These could include going out for a
| walk or having 1:1 or having conversation with someone. Again
| this will vary depending on if you are introvert or extrovert.
| albingroen wrote:
| I also think a very large majority of people on this planet are
| tired because of an unknown deficit of vitamines and minerals
| like Omega 3, Zink and Vitamin D
| orangepurple wrote:
| I never ate much meat but I do eat fermented-only dairy. I got
| my bloodwork done and I am iron deficient. I am taking the
| bisglycinate salt which is completely unnoticeable on my
| stomach. I'll have it retested after a course of 5000mg
| elemental iron equivalents (about a month). My mood noticeably
| improved after checking and correcting my blood vitamin and
| iron levels.
| williamtrask wrote:
| Also high CO2 in working and sleeping areas. Basically any
| older building without HVAC and with upgraded (double pane)
| windows.
| surfmike wrote:
| Most home HVAC systems don't bring in fresh air, right? Just
| recirculate air in the house.
| kubanczyk wrote:
| V in HVAC is for "ventilation" and although home AC unit
| might not provide it itself, I'd be surprised if there
| really wasn't any. Unlike AC, V is mandated by law in many
| jurisdictions.
| gruez wrote:
| Newer homes are supposed to have heat recovery ventilators,
| which do bring in fresh air even if all windows are closed.
| kqr wrote:
| The ones I know suck air out of the building (well, really,
| create a mild low pressure), and rely on fresh air getting
| in elsewhere (for example through dedicated intakes around
| windows in apartments.)
| bberrry wrote:
| Is there any research to back that claim up?
| Test0129 wrote:
| Vitamin D deficiency is well known enough it should stand up
| to the simple concern trolling done by people who demand a
| source like every post must be an academic journal.
| RhodesianHunter wrote:
| Significant. Have you tried Google?
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