[HN Gopher] "Logistics", an 857-hour movie, tracks a pedometer f...
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"Logistics", an 857-hour movie, tracks a pedometer from shop back
to factory
Author : dzuc
Score : 205 points
Date : 2022-08-13 13:48 UTC (9 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (readpassage.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (readpassage.com)
| kevbin wrote:
| akudha wrote:
| Most people have no clue where/how everyday things are made.
| Reminds me of this video where a teenage girl was saying food
| comes from supermarkets, not farmers
| zdragnar wrote:
| My grandparents (who were farmers) would frequently joke that
| city folk always thought beets came from cans at the store and
| didn't know they grew in the ground.
|
| I imagine the same city folk laughed at all the things country
| rubes like my grandparents didn't know. Of course, one being
| the child of an immigrant and the other immigrating as a child,
| and quite poor to boot, they would have faced plenty of
| derision for that as well. IIRC they also didn't get indoor
| plumbing and toilets until the early 1950's, so they probably
| would have been laughed at for that too.
| AlbertCory wrote:
| "City folk encountering their country cousins" used to be a
| standard trope of comedy. The very fact that it's not anymore
| tells you all you need to know about urbanization.
| danjoredd wrote:
| That was pretty much the entire joke behind both Green
| Acres and the Beverly Hillbillies, to show the difference
| of cultures in America in an absurd way. Seeing everything
| become homogeneous is kind of sad
| mbg721 wrote:
| Sort of...Green Acres seemed more to exploit that
| difference to create an absurd environment in general.
| (Filmways had a lot of trained farm animals around
| anyway.) The recurring joke was that Eddie Albert had an
| idyllic vision of being a lawyer retiring to farm life,
| and all of the objectively insane things people there did
| made perfect sense to everyone except him, including Eva
| Gabor.
| [deleted]
| 29athrowaway wrote:
| In 1957, the BBC pranked people for April Fools' day claiming
| that spaghetti comes form spaghetti trees.
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spaghetti-tree_hoax
| KptMarchewa wrote:
| The video is worth a watch' https://youtu.be/tVo_wkxH9dU
| lumost wrote:
| It does make one wonder how long the supply chain can get
| before people forget what's on the other side of it. The
| Roman's only had a vague concept of how silk was made and
| where it came from. The Chinese a vague idea of daqin, the
| opposite of the Qin empire.
|
| A farmer be forgiven for believing that their fertilizer is
| made from manure and not petrochemicals made thousands of
| miles away?
| seabird wrote:
| Farmers know absurd amounts about the fertilizer they're
| using. Frankly, they probably know more about any given
| facet of the modern world than the average person. Having
| to pull multi-million dollar lines of credit and constantly
| staying up-to-date with any technology that touches your
| business will do funny things to people. That extends to
| most people that make things; they know who it goes to and
| how it gets there, but the person who gets it doesn't know
| where it came from and how it got to them.
| philwelch wrote:
| Yeah there was a viral video awhile back where this young
| woman on a family farm was sitting in her tractor talking
| about how everything worked. The tractor has more
| computer screens than my desk ever had and a GIS system.
|
| > That extends to most people that make things; they know
| who it goes to and how it gets there, but the person who
| gets it doesn't know where it came from and how it got to
| them.
|
| People who make things seriously, at least. People who
| think groceries come from the store and haven't thought
| past that will still be able to cook a meal while a more
| serious home cook or a good professional chef knows more
| about where their ingredients come from. But this only
| goes a couple levels deep at most. The chef might know
| where the farmer's fertilizer comes from (I think that's
| part of what's implied by "organic food") but the farmer
| will definitely know. But for petrochemical fertilizer,
| there's a whole petrochemical supply chain before that
| which the fertilizer manufacturer will understand even
| better than the farmer.
| 29athrowaway wrote:
| They have a Star Trek-style replicator.
|
| "Computer, 1 whole of chicken please. Roasted."
| [deleted]
| kzrdude wrote:
| There used to be plenty of how stuff is made documentaries on
| tv, so I don't know. Nowadays I don't see tv, not that linear
| medium anyway, so is it gone?
| wishfish wrote:
| There's still plenty of professionally produced
| documentaries. There are a zillion videos on Youtube which
| talk about how stuff is made. Plenty of videos telling you
| how to make your own stuff. There's subreddits directly or
| indirectly dedicated to this. There's also quite a bit of
| how-stuff-is-made on TikTok too.
|
| Speaking of the latter, there's one related phenomenon on
| TikTok which I never see talked about, but is quite
| interesting / educational. Some production workers set up a
| TikTok live feed at work so you can see their part of how
| things are made or shipped. I've seen factory workers in
| Vietnam, farmers from all over the world, loggers,
| construction workers, and too many craftsmen to count. Once
| had insomnia and ended up watching a 5 AM livestream of a
| sawmill worker methodically turning various sized tree trunks
| into uniform planks. That was oddly relaxing and fascinating.
| kzrdude wrote:
| (Since you mentioned it) I just recently watched all of
| Stuff Made Here (brilliant guy and channel). One thing
| really opened my mind - he built his own CNC machine! Now
| that I know this I could almost believe that I could build
| anything too. At least that it's possible to build at home.
|
| Interesting about TikTok. But all the content niches are so
| segregated now due to algorithm recommendations, I'm not
| sure if these are being watched by only the interested, or
| are they watched by "everyone" in general?
| germinalphrase wrote:
| That is classic "evergreen" content, so it's probably still
| airing.
| UIUC_06 wrote:
| > However, if Logistics showed me anything, it's that time
| belongs to the working people of this world, when we can find
| ways to take it.
|
| So deep. So profound.
|
| > Logistics is the filmic annihilation of capitalist relations to
| time by a force of ultra-cinematic space. Logistics isn't a feat
| of temporal duration, it's a feat of spatial presence.
|
| Such overwrought prose. Such "forcing everything into a Marxist
| framework."
|
| Leonard A. Read talked about the pencil and how no one person
| could possibly make one, in 1958:
| https://www.econlib.org/library/Essays/rdPncl.html?chapter_n...
| and he wasn't the first, either.
|
| The supply chain expands, but the principle stays the same.
| lisper wrote:
| > Such overwrought prose. Such "forcing everything into a
| Marxist framework."
|
| One of the reasons Marx is so popular is that his writing is
| vague enough that people can read a very wide range of meaning
| into the words. Religious leaders and politicians often follow
| the same playbook to great success.
| eternalban wrote:
| https://content.csbs.utah.edu/~ehrbar/cap1.pdf
|
| For those interested, I recommend Michael Heinrich's
| biography of Marx ( _' Karl Marx and the Birth of Modern
| Society'_; volume 1 covers the young Marx up to the end of
| his studies and delves deep into the intellectual and
| political context of that time in Germany and Europe. Very
| informative.)
|
| His 'An Introduction to the Three Volumes of Karl Marx's
| Capital' is on my to-read list:
|
| https://files.libcom.org/files/Karl%20Marx%20and%20the%20Bir.
| ..
|
| https://files.libcom.org/files/Michael_Heinrich,_Alex_Locasc.
| ..
| bsenftner wrote:
| My art school friends used to point out "artful ambiguity" as
| a key success factor beneath religious leaders, political
| movements and pop music.
| kqr wrote:
| Sure, also "early access" video games. People are willing
| to pay a lot for them because it is still ambiguous enough
| that everyone can imagine it will turn out into
| specifically their future vision.
| bjt2n3904 wrote:
| That was a magnificent essay. Thank you for posting it!
| forgotmypw17 wrote:
| The crazy part is that this journey is only the tip of the
| iceberg for this pedometer. It is made of many components, all of
| which follow similar journeys to the pedometer factory from their
| respective factories. And the components are made of raw
| materials, which are also shipped around in a similar manner
| after being mined. And the mining itself displaces those who live
| in that space.
| 7373737373 wrote:
| I, Pencil: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=67tHtpac5ws
| thefourthchime wrote:
| Thanks, that was great
| capableweb wrote:
| That's a great perspective to have on what it takes to make
| even the simplest things, like a pencil. Unfortunately, (but
| not unsurprising), Friedman makes the grand claim that
| capitalism crates harmony in the world at the end of the
| video, but besides that, it was a interesting and quick
| watch. Thanks for sharing it.
| ed wrote:
| > Unfortunately
|
| What's the argument against capitalism/international trade
| in this context? Trade increases the cost of war, which is
| a good thing, right?
| desindol wrote:
| There is also one more focused on manufacturing from Red Bull.
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iptAkpqjtMQ
| logisticsfilm wrote:
| Yeah its unfathomable, we were inspired by an article in the
| German magazine Der Spiegel about the components of an electric
| toothbrush. Our dream was to follow the components of the
| pedometer all the way back to the mines, however, we haven't
| done so yet.
| wizardforhire wrote:
| While not nearly as harrowing a journey nor the commitment as
| watching the film described in this article, reading this article
| in its entirety was surprisingly riveting and oddly fulfilling.
| permo-w wrote:
| I found the opposite. to me it felt like retracing the same two
| - admittedly interesting and valuable - meta points over and
| over*, while refusing to describe what the film was actually
| like to watch. I assume it did actually get to that point, but
| I stopped reading after the nth paragraph that I didn't feel
| provided any new information.
|
| this isn't to say you're wrong to enjoy it, or that my
| impressions were correct, just that I felt differently. I'm
| also extremely aware of the irony of complaining about the
| length of an article about the experience of watching an 857
| hour film, but c'est la, as they say
|
| *i.e. how it is an art piece about capitalism compressing time
| and space into innocuous objects; and how much of a time and
| schedule commitment it was for him
| codeflo wrote:
| So the entire freighter journey is shown in real time, to show
| how "crushing" (a word used in the article) capitalism is?
| Because before capitalism, there were no freight ships, or what?
| lm28469 wrote:
| Every week my office restocks on bananas from Latin america
|
| Every week at least a few end up in the trash, because they
| turned black and no one wants them anymore
|
| So some dude, thousands of kilometers away, grew his bananas,
| put them in a boat, for a weeks long trip to Europe, followed
| by hundreds of kilometers in a truck, to end up in my office
| trash
|
| This is a simple example
|
| It's not about what was possible before, of course we've been
| shiping stuff world wide for a long time, it's about the scale
| and banality of it and the scale and banality of waste that
| comes with it. Nothing is measured with the "absurdity" scale,
| everything is measured with the "money" scale. A lot of what we
| now consider normal is complete madness
| philwelch wrote:
| It's not like each individual banana was artisinally grown in
| a flower pot. They literally grow on trees.
| lm28469 wrote:
| And petrol grows in the soil so I guess we're all right
| then
|
| I took a single banana as an example, now think about the
| millions of animals we slaughter every year which end up
| straight to the bin etc.
|
| It's like cars, a single car is fine, 1.4 billion cars are
| not, I think most people just don't comprehend the scale of
| it all
| philwelch wrote:
| Petrol does not, in fact, "grow" on human timescales.
| onos wrote:
| I don't like the waste but I also like bananas. Not sure what
| to make of your example.
| kortilla wrote:
| The economies of scale make this nearly no different than you
| wasting a locally grown banana. Very little energy was spent
| on that particular banana to get it do you.
| drexlspivey wrote:
| Alternative: You've never eaten a banana because they don't
| grow in Europe. How does this measure in the absurdity scale?
| lm28469 wrote:
| Who cares, I haven't tried the majority of fruits,
| vegetables, meats out there, I'm fine
|
| Life isn't a race to consume everything as much and as fast
| as possible
| bm3719 wrote:
| You can take them home to add to your compost bin. Then you
| can put this excellent and free compost in your garden.
| bitwize wrote:
| Blackened bananas can also be frozen and used later to make
| banana bread.
| lm28469 wrote:
| I don't know if you're sarcastic or not, because this is
| exactly what I mean by using a monetary scale. It's free to
| me but it still is an incredible waste of energy, time and
| ressources
| bm3719 wrote:
| I'm being serious, and I do this when possible. My non-
| gardening relatives will sometimes even drop off a pile
| of unusable produce for such purposes when visiting.
|
| Ideally, it's better not to overproduce and overbuy. But
| I'm suggesting making the best of a situation where the
| bananas can either go to the landfill or still be of some
| use.
| delusional wrote:
| In that case we shipped literal dirt around the world so
| that he could put it in his garden. Is that any less
| absurd?
| spookthesunset wrote:
| What do you propose as an alternative?
| stevenally wrote:
| Eat locally grown food?
| jimbobimbo wrote:
| So, no banana for you, eat potatoes instead?
| lm28469 wrote:
| You haven't tried the vast majority of fruits, veggies,
| meats, fishes out there and I'm sure you don't feel like
| you're life is miserable because of it
| nautilius wrote:
| That argument makes no sense. Presumably, jimbobimbo
| already sources ~100% of their intake from some producer
| outside of their apartment, to not be stuck on eating the
| mushrooms growing in the bathroom.
|
| Just because there is _even more_ out there to miss out
| on doesn't make missing out on bananas less of an issue.
|
| I assume you can just stop to eat altogether, because
| you're not consuming the vast majority of food out there.
| jimbobimbo wrote:
| You do understand that this position comes across as
| incredibly paternalistic? It's like mom telling a child
| they can't have a cookie until they finish their broccoli
| first.
|
| I don't have to try "the vast majority" of other stuff to
| enjoy the banana.
| karaterobot wrote:
| This may come as a surprise, but there's plenty of
| wastage in locally shipped produce too. It's not so much
| the distance as the act of picking things and putting
| them into boxes, and taking them out of boxes again that
| does it.
| orangecat wrote:
| _So some dude, thousands of kilometers away, grew his
| bananas, put them in a boat, for a weeks long trip to Europe,
| followed by hundreds of kilometers in a truck, to end up in
| my office trash_
|
| Along with millions of other bananas that got eaten. You're
| arguing against economies of scale here, and you'll need to
| show your work rather than dismissing long-distance trade as
| "madness".
| rakoo wrote:
| That's the thing. Under capitalism the only way to measure
| something is money. Millions of tons could be sold, profit
| was made, so it's OK to throw away a few tons.
|
| Environment, living and working conditions, resources and
| materials being taken from non-renewables sources, all of
| those are unimportant under capitalism, all of those are
| unimportant with capitalism and are the reason why no one
| asks themselves whether it's really worth shipping fruits
| from the other side of the world. Sometimes even by plane.
| kqr wrote:
| Right. In a system where people feel forced to work crazy
| hours in the middle of the ocean; in a system where
| someone else pays the externalities of petroleum; in a
| system where the raw materials for a freighter can be dug
| up by people who may not need to understand why anyone
| would need bananas shipped to them; in a system rich
| people have shaped so that it feeds them whatever exotic
| fruits they desire... only in such a system can shipping
| bananas to be thrown out be considered "cheap because
| economies of scale".
|
| Economies of scale means individual suffering turns into
| statistical noise.
| fallingknife wrote:
| Because the environment is so much less polluted and
| working conditions are so much better in non capitalist
| countries?
| kqr wrote:
| I don't know if there's been a good example of an
| actually non-capitalist country yet. I'm not a historian,
| but all examples I can think of have a small class of
| people owning the means of production. They aren't always
| the bourgeoisie but sometimes a political elite or
| dictator's following.
|
| What I can say is that on a more local scale, the non-
| capitalist systems I've had experience with have been
| much more pleasant than the ones where a small set of
| people held most of the power over production.
| lm28469 wrote:
| They're virtually all playing the capitalist game,
| slapping "communist" in your country/government name
| isn't enough
| [deleted]
| robocat wrote:
| Can you name a mostly capitalist country? Most countries
| have a significantly socialist element, greater than 30%
| of the economy.
|
| For example, the government sector makes up a third of
| New Zealand GDP.
| https://www.statista.com/statistics/436523/ratio-of-
| governme...
|
| Also if you look at how you "spend" your own time you
| might find that a lot of it is not on purely capitalist
| hours, but instead time is spent on hobbies, sports,
| children, friends, family and other pursuits that would
| be regarded as non-capitalist.
|
| Edit: I would be regarded as a capitalist within New
| Zealand (I am a successful founder, I don't much believe
| in agricultural/industry subsidies), but I would be
| regarded as on-the-left in the US (I'm generally
| supportive of government health systems and social
| equality).
| philwelch wrote:
| The problem isn't capitalism; it's the imperfection of
| humanity. No economic system in history has eliminated
| waste. The only industrialized alternative to capitalism
| was notoriously even more wasteful.
|
| Price systems work by simplifying and transmitting
| information relevant to production and consumption
| decisions. If the price goes up, consumers who can go
| without the thing can stop buying it and producers who
| can make more of the thing can start making it, and they
| each have the incentive to do so.
|
| When it comes to externalities with the environment,
| these can be incorporated into the price system. That's
| how a carbon tax would work. It turns out that the
| intuitions of would-be central planners are often
| completely wrong.
|
| The truth is, lots of people do ask themselves if it's
| really worth it to ship bananas from Latin America to
| Europe. They work for the fruit company and their
| decision is based on the costs and benefits. If there are
| costs that they aren't considering, then the solution is
| to incorporate those costs into the price system, not to
| have some banana commissar decree that oceanic banana
| shipping is banned because, in his enlightened gut
| feeling, it's "absurd".
| lm28469 wrote:
| > The only industrialized alternative to capitalism was
| notoriously even more wasteful
|
| Or eating locally grown stuff that doesn't need to be
| shipped form the other side of the planet, but when you
| say that people think you're the mad man... I'm telling
| you, the whole system is mad, you're just too deep into
| it to realize, the dissonance would be too strong
| missedthecue wrote:
| Are you under the impression that Ecuadorians never
| discard brown bananas?
| philwelch wrote:
| What exactly is your basis for thinking it's crazy to
| ship things from the other side of the planet? What cost
| benefit analysis have you done to come to this
| conclusion? Or are you just appealing to your own amateur
| intuitions?
|
| If there's an ecological cost that isn't being accounted
| for, the solution is to adjust policies so the cost is
| reflected, e.g. via a carbon tax. And I'm sure if we had
| a carbon tax, we would eat more locally grown food
| because it would be more cost effective. On the other
| hand, different parts of the world vary widely in terms
| of what can be grown there and how efficiently it. It's a
| complicated problem that can't be solved top-down, and
| certainly can't be solved by some armchair hippie going
| "the whole system is mad, man!"
| agalunar wrote:
| This may be a bit pedantic, but I think it's worth
| discussing.
|
| > The problem isn't capitalism; it's the imperfection of
| humanity. No economic system in history has eliminated
| waste.
|
| The fact that no economic system yet implemented at scale
| has eliminated waste does not necessarily imply that
| waste is unavoidable; we'd need to convincingly show that
| no such economic system could be possible. Similarly, I
| don't believe we can conclude that capitalism minimizes
| waste among all feasible, stable economic systems.
|
| As far as balancing exploration and exploitation goes, it
| might be argued that we should focus on reaping the
| benefits of our current economic system and deprioritize
| the exploration new economic systems, but it's too much
| at this point (imo) to assert that exploration is futile.
|
| My other thoughts:
|
| * "Capitalism or central planning" is a false dichotomy;
| there are economic systems besides capitalism that have
| free markets.
|
| * The goal of capital holders in a capitalist system is
| not efficiency (in the colloquial sense), but profit -
| planned obsolescence is perhaps the perfect example of
| this.
|
| * I agree with you that central planners can be
| catastrophically wrong, and my current opinion is that
| incorporating externalities into the pricing system
| (through taxes) is a good idea. It can be difficult to
| correctly identify, distinguish, and price externalities;
| I wonder if a benefit of more local economic systems is
| that there are fewer externalities (by which I mean,
| actors experience more of the effects that they cause and
| impose fewer incidental effects on third parties), which
| would reduce the number of things we need to manually
| identify and correct.
| jstummbillig wrote:
| People did ask themselves. They found, yes, it's worth.
| You might disagree, but I don't I think the number of
| rotten bananas a process produces offers any meaningful
| answer. At best it's a baseline and by itself about as
| useful as "x people die from y every year". What about
| it? Is that number supposed to be good or bad and what is
| the bigger context?
|
| Doing stuff causes other stuff to happen. People die in
| car accidents, but a lot of death is prevented _because_
| we have cars, but then people also die because of
| pollution or get depressed because of noise pollution,
| and it keeps goin from there. It 's hard. Let's be
| empathetic with each other, and good, and also think a
| lot about what is going on.
| yellow_postit wrote:
| I can recommend "The Fish that Ate the Whale" [1] -- this
| race against time for bananas is a tale told over many
| different phases of shipping.
|
| [1] https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/13166586-the-fish-
| that-a...
| AlbertCory wrote:
| I actually see a food bank "gleaner" regularly at my Safeway.
| Bananas with any black spots at all are considered
| unsaleable, although they're perfectly edible.
|
| So long before they turn all black, they're taken to the food
| bank and given away to whomever wants them at their central
| location. If a banana does make it all the way to black, it
| means someone bought it and then didn't eat it.
|
| There is actually competition among the food banks for
| supermarkets' unwanted food. One will go to the supermarket
| manager and ask for their unwanted food and get told "Sorry,
| we're already giving it to Second Harvest."
|
| It isn't only produce. The gleaner regularly fills up his car
| with breads, milk, and lots of other stuff.
| hypertele-Xii wrote:
| This is a failure of your office, not of the logistics
| network. The bananas arrive just fine, why does your office
| stock so many they go bad?
|
| I eat plenty banana and _almost_ never throw any away. And
| when I do, the reason is never "because I didn't eat it in
| time".
| karaterobot wrote:
| I apologize for my ignorance: under what economic system do a
| small fraction of bananas not get bruised during shipping?
| Sign me up!
| iforgotpassword wrote:
| Before "capitalism" (globalization really I guess), you were
| eating apples from your neighbor's garden, wearing shoes made
| by your town's shoemaker, not from half around the world.
| Manuel_D wrote:
| This is not correct, the ancient world and the ancient
| Mediterranean especially saw food get transported by sea.
| Rome.had to import much of it's food, for instance, as did
| Athens.
| iforgotpassword wrote:
| Well you're not wrong, but that was still the exception,
| and on a smaller scale. So maybe food wasn't the best
| example to get my point across. Like you said, they _had
| to_ , it's not like some clever Roman said "hey you know
| what, I'll just buy cheap stuff from overseas to make more
| money and then fuck our farmers." Nobody sent locally
| harvested produce for processing to a country half around
| the world and then back. Or look at when ancient Rome and
| China did trade. That was for luxury goods, not for basic
| household items the average Joe would buy.
| yunohn wrote:
| You could do that in the modern day too, if the West decided
| to stop their exploitation of developing/colonial countries.
|
| Instead, they've decided that minimum wages at home need to
| be X $PSEUR and X/100 everywhere else, so they can offshore
| everything. Nobody is forcing the West to make shoes in
| China!
| cptnapalm wrote:
| Expand that to things like olive oil, wine, lumber, jewelry,
| and the like, you'd have to go back before the bronze age.
| dijit wrote:
| Not sure that's the strongest take you could have made.
|
| Some things cannot reasonably be produced domestically.
|
| Some things are about attempting to shrink labour costs.
|
| It's cheaper for Britain to send its shellfish to China to
| be de-shelled by hand, then send it back than it is to pay
| some folks to do it in the UK (or mechanise the task).
|
| This is an extreme example (and a real one) that highlights
| what the parent is talking about.
|
| Even when accounting for the human, fuel, cooling and
| spoilage cost of shipping around the world it's "cheaper",
| but that doesn't make sense to me because at the end of it
| there is much less fuel and much less fish than it would
| have otherwise been.
|
| There's also not a strong reason to buy shoes made in China
| except for economic reasons, and more recently supply chain
| ones.
|
| We can weave fabrics and we have domestic cotton. However,
| the economics (pushed cheaper by dirt cheap freight) are
| emphasising a global supply chain where one isn't needed in
| most cases.
|
| I'm picking on China a bit but it applies to basically
| everything where the labour is cheaper and the supply chain
| bends itself in a more inefficient path (everything else
| being equal) to capitalise(heh) on the lower labour costs.
| hypertele-Xii wrote:
| > It's cheaper for Britain to send its shellfish to China
| to be de-shelled by hand, then send it back than it is to
| pay some folks to do it in the UK
|
| This is a tiny fraction of a much bigger picture. The
| shellfish do not get their own private ship. It's cheap
| because the UK is already importing so much that when the
| ships return to China empty, they might as well pick up
| some shellfish on their way home. Then, the de-shelled
| shellfish is valuable enough to get a spot on the next
| full ship heading out again.
|
| Not nearly as crazy sounding.
| iforgotpassword wrote:
| I think it's still as crazy sounding! We send shellfish
| around the globe and back to get them de-shelled. Not
| because they do it better, but _cheaper_. And for the
| company doing it it makes sense, since they benefit, and
| the now unemployed countrymen get compensated by the
| government, ie. taxes, ie. everyone.
|
| And yes, of course there's always one more step that
| leads you to where you got in the end. Nobody established
| a new shipping route and built a new dedicated ship just
| to start de-shelling in China.
|
| It's like when you look at some complex software that has
| a batshit crazy architecture, spaghetti code, 5 different
| code styles, hacks and is half procedural half OOP, and
| whatever else you consider a crime. But then you look at
| its history, how it's almost 30 years old, started
| procedural on a different OS, how its requirements vastly
| changed and extended over the decades in ways nobody
| could possibly anticipate, and suddenly, most of the
| crazy things don't seem so crazy anymore if you know the
| story behind the individual "crimes" committed. But thst
| still doesn't mean that looking at the whole picture
| can't reveal a batshit crazy codebase that you wouldn't
| touch with a 5ft pole if you can avoid it.
| UIUC_06 wrote:
| > a global supply chain where one isn't needed in most
| cases.
|
| And you say this from your vast expertise in global
| economics?
|
| Things evolved this way because a whole globe full of
| individual actors thought they made sense, based on
| prices. If they cease to make sense, those same actors
| will start doing something else because the prices they
| see will change.
|
| It could take a while, but so would having another
| meeting of the Global Planning Committee.
| dijit wrote:
| I'm drunk right now, so I can't give you much rebuttal
| honestly.
|
| But it's kinda funny you said this:
|
| > And you say this from your vast expertise in global
| economics?
|
| Because I actually have a masters degree in international
| economics (with a focus on China) from Lund university in
| Sweden.
| UIUC_06 wrote:
| Well, sorry, then you're _certainly_ qualified to
| reorganize the whole world 's economy.
| dijit wrote:
| I am certainly qualified to understand it.
| UIUC_06 wrote:
| No doubt. You must have global companies calling you all
| the time, seeking to hire you for your expertise. Why not
| work for one and apply it?
| dijit wrote:
| > You must have global companies calling you all the
| time, seeking to hire you for your expertise.
|
| Technically yes, though that's because I'm working in
| tech.
|
| I think you're being sarcastic, though but you should
| understand that my education is not esoteric.
|
| 30 people in my class. Countless classes of the same
| curriculum in the same years. Countless years that this
| has been a thing.
|
| I'm not sure what your problem is. That someone knows
| something with regards to global economics? That despite
| understanding economics I gave an argument from the
| ecological perspective?
|
| Honestly. Get over yourself, you're not as smart as you
| think by trying to drag people down.
|
| I mean. For christs sake if not _a person with a masters
| degree_ in this topic, then who on earth can weigh in
| with an opinion do you think?
| UIUC_06 wrote:
| > if not a person with a masters degree in this topic,
| then who on earth can weigh in with an opinion do you
| think?
|
| Who on earth? Someone with skin in the game -- someone
| who actually makes business decisions about shipping and
| manufacturing things. As opposed to studying them and
| teaching about them.
| dijit wrote:
| > Someone with skin in the game -- someone who actually
| makes business decisions about shipping and manufacturing
| things. As opposed to studying them and teaching about
| them.
|
| Cool.
|
| I'm CTO at a company of 150 people.
|
| To be fair, we make video games.
|
| I'm sure you'll find a way to disqualify me from having
| an opinion in some other way.
| UIUC_06 wrote:
| > I'm sure you'll find a way to disqualify me
|
| No. You've got skin in the game. Calm down.
| have_faith wrote:
| This reminds me of that fields medal HN comment.
| Different scale but same theme.
| lm28469 wrote:
| But this was still sustainable, what happened in the last
| century on the other hand....
| tpmx wrote:
| Trade is capitalism. It's how we push forward. It's inevitable,
| but some people do hardcore roleplay that it's not. The world
| is worse for that.
| WalterBright wrote:
| People trade under socialism and communism, too. Stone age
| tribes trade. Families trade. Communes trade. Everybody
| trades.
| tpmx wrote:
| > People trade under socialism and communism, too.
|
| In trivially provably less efficient ways.
| bitwize wrote:
| > efficient
|
| Economists and market fundamentalists keep using that
| word. I do not think it means what they think it means.
| WalterBright wrote:
| Economists know what words mean.
| moritzwarhier wrote:
| Efficiency can mean a lot though. It depends on what you
| want to maximize and what to minimize.
| tpmx wrote:
| They also know that free trade is superior to planned
| economies, soviet union style.
| WalterBright wrote:
| Planned economies haven't worked in the US, either. For
| example, before Reagan deregulated the airlines, the
| airline schedules, routes, and fares were set by the FAA.
|
| The result is airliners often flew nearly empty.
|
| Once that was deregulated, a titantic shift occurred,
| such as the emergence of the hub-and-spoke system.
| Airplanes have been packed since then.
|
| The FAA bureaucrats proved incapable of efficiently
| setting routes, schedules, and fares.
|
| In the 1970s, the Energy Department decided a gas
| station's gas allocation. They did this for every gas
| station in the country. The result was simultaneous gluts
| and shortages of gas. Reagan deregulated that with his
| very first Executive Order, and the gluts, shortages, and
| gas lines disappeared literally overnight.
|
| Planned economies just don't work.
| kzrdude wrote:
| At what level of regulation is a market free? As an
| example of a hard to capture word.
| WalterBright wrote:
| Regulation to prevent use of force and fraud, and
| contract enforcement, and dealing with externalities.
| moritzwarhier wrote:
| Who decides when "dealing with externalities" has been
| done in a proper way?
|
| The very word "externalities" and the state of the global
| environment don't inspire much trust in the efficient
| management of "externalities" through capitalism.
|
| Pointing this out doesn't mean that I am a socialist ot
| communist, I don't like this this kind of black and white
| thinking.
|
| Wouldn't "efficiency" mean that we use natural resources
| sustainably?
|
| That's not happening as far as I see.
| ModernMech wrote:
| Trade exists apart from capitalism, and is found in any
| number of alternative economic systems. Capitalism is about
| who has ownership of productive assets. Conflating capitalism
| with trade makes it seem like no alternative economic systems
| are possible.
| [deleted]
| Seattle3503 wrote:
| It makes about as much sense as saying watching paint dry
| defines the experience of having decorated walls.
| delusional wrote:
| Observing the absurdity of something doesn't necessarily mean
| you have a more desirable alternative. I can observe that it's
| absurd that my apples were shipped halfway around the world
| without saying "so i don't want them".
|
| Capitalism is absurd, what it makes humans do is absurd. It's
| also useful and has some worthwhile properties.
| permo-w wrote:
| the mid-section of this article is just rephrased paragraph after
| rephrased paragraph, each less philosophically sound than the
| last.
|
| we get it, the film is an art piece making a point about how
| capitalism compresses time and space into inconsequential
| objects. it was a big undertaking schedule-wise. you don't have
| to say this backwards and forwards 5 times
|
| compress your article space and time-wise
| [deleted]
| manytree wrote:
| What a lovely article and piece. Tremendous. I don't think I will
| make such a commitment to this film as did the author, but in a
| way I feel it is perhaps the only way to understand it: at the
| speed of undilated time.
| radicality wrote:
| Is it available anywhere? Article says was on Vimeo but that it
| was taken down.
|
| I don't see any info on their page either
| https://logisticsartproject.com/
|
| I wonder how large (in file size) the final cut was and what
| codecs were used. Such slow moving footage probably compresses
| well, but at 857 hours of footage it's probably still big.
| logisticsfilm wrote:
| We had the film on Vimeo for a year but had to take it down due
| to the cost of Vimeo hosting.
|
| The original film is around 10TB of mpeg2 1080p 25mbit/sec 25
| frames per second.
|
| We later transcoded to h264, it now clocks in at about 2TB.
| chaostheory wrote:
| Out of curiosity, why aren't you on other platforms? Is it
| mainly due to the size, maintaining rights, or a combination?
| logisticsfilm wrote:
| Size and rights are definitely an aspect, but so is
| context. If we were to upload this to YouTube for example
| we imagine that the film would be interrupted by commercial
| breaks every now and then. Plus there is the 12 hour length
| limit.
|
| We did livestream it on Youtube back when you could opt out
| of commercials. And in a way a livestream is our preferred
| way of showing the work but doing so from home forces us to
| make sure the stream is running 24/7 for 37 days...
| philistine wrote:
| Yeah, you should definitely find a way to stream it from
| a third location. You have the same problem as the lofi
| girl stream: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=jfKfPfyJRdk
|
| Before their problem with content ID last month, their
| stream had been uninterrupted for two years.
| [deleted]
| drited wrote:
| The author mentioned that they started out looking for the
| world's longest horror film but ended up finding a film which
| exposes capitalism's underbelly and brings home why life is
| turned into a blur by capitalism.
|
| If you ask me though, based on this paragraph they did actually
| find the world's longest horror film! As for the anti-capitalism
| hints in the article, try watching an 857 hour film without
| starving in a non-capitalist economy!
|
| "There came a point about three weeks into my viewing where the
| maddening, non-Euclidean shape of Logistics fully formed in my
| mind. I had an unnerving migraine. I could barely get myself
| together, let alone watch a boat not move for nine hours. I
| thought about quitting or taking a few days off, but then it
| occurred to me: the crew of the ship couldn't quit, and the
| filmmakers couldn't take a day off. I was now a part of this
| filmic thing, and I couldn't stop until it was done."
| rahimnathwani wrote:
| I really enjoyed Ascension https://g.co/kgs/agLbnp
| boomboomsubban wrote:
| I think I could handle watching the boat, 857 hours of silence
| would drive me insane. I wonder if they supplemented their own
| background music.
| chha wrote:
| Not quite that long, but the Norwegian national broadcaster NRK
| did a week-long trip one one of the coastal shipping routes in
| the nortern part of the country. Might be of interest for you.
| I know they used to offer the whole thing as a torrent, but it
| can also be found here: https://tv.nrk.no/serie/hurtigruten-
| minutt-for-minutt
| drdebug wrote:
| You don't have kids do you? Silence is under-rated.
| RajT88 wrote:
| Still. For my tastes at least, this is time better spent than
| _The Cremaster Cycle_.
| [deleted]
| rendall wrote:
| > _Going on the Logistics journey means encountering a staggering
| depiction of alienation, isolation and just how much capitalist
| social relations have distorted our ability to understand time
| and space._
|
| Bit of a stretch. Would anarchist shipping take less time or be
| less boring somehow?
| exitb wrote:
| One could question the decision to make the pedometer on the
| other side of the world. Or even its necessity in the first
| place.
| UIUC_06 wrote:
| One could, if "one" were an intellectual who thought himself
| qualified to question everything, because reasons.
|
| Someone wants a pedometer, and magically, or not so
| magically, one appears on a shelf near them, or on their
| doorstep.
| sixstringtheory wrote:
| Why did they want the pedometer? Did they come to that
| desire in isolation, or were they advertised to by the
| pedometer maker?
| UIUC_06 wrote:
| Maybe they're humans with agency? Just a thought.
| fallingknife wrote:
| You can decide on its necessity for yourself by buying it or
| not. You are not entitled to make that choice for other
| people.
| kqr wrote:
| Certainly the parties involved would have a _better
| understanding of_ the time and space under discussion, because
| they would have taken part in the decisions about sourcing and
| logistics.
| rendall wrote:
| I mean, it seems like the guy went into the viewing already
| with a notion that capitalism is bad, and then watched a lot of
| really boring video, and then attributes the self-imposed
| tedium to how capitalism "distorts or ability to understand
| time and space". Only someone predisposed to this perspective
| would think that makes any sense at all.
| kuramitropolis wrote:
| Increased likelihood of piracy, less stuff shipped overall,
| probably less of the blandness inherent in economy of scale.
| arise wrote:
| So less boring, if nothing else.
| Ygg2 wrote:
| Sure. If you count waking up tomorrow as boring.
| delusional wrote:
| I don't think anarchy is the negation of capitalism.
| AnimalMuppet wrote:
| In practice, was communism _less_ alienating than capitalism?
| I doubt it.
| AlbertCory wrote:
| Soviet workers used to say "We pretend to work, and they
| pretend to pay us."
| teakettle42 wrote:
| Czech workers during the communist era used to say "If
| you're not stealing from the state, you're stealing from
| your family" ("Kdo neokrada stat, okrada rodinu")
| kuramitropolis wrote:
| Nah GP actually has a good radical/reductionist approach by
| jumping straight to anarchies.
| rakoo wrote:
| The side effect of capitalism is that not only money becomes
| concentrated, but also power. Not only because money buys
| power, but because the one who ones the machines can dictate
| how the one who operates it works. Anarchism refutes the idea
| that one has power over another, and as such accumulation of
| money and not owning the means of production _is_
| antithetical to anarchism
| docandrew wrote:
| This reminds me of a small organic farm owner who said
| something to the effect of "why can't I just trade my extra
| produce with the farmer down the street who has extra eggs?
| And then I can use the eggs to make pastries and trade
| those with my neighbor who makes homemade clothing?"
| Someone responded, "congrats, you just invented
| capitalism."
|
| Since eggs go bad and produce is heavy, maybe we could
| invent a durable "value storage" or "token" or "fiat" to
| trade instead. Storage and transmission of this value store
| could become useful trades in their own right.
|
| This sounds like a very natural thing to do, almost like it
| would arise on its own without anyone having to _force_
| this on anyone, as opposed to literally every other
| economic system, including your definition. In your
| "anarchism" how do you enforce the non-ownership of the
| means of production except by force? Do you force the
| farmer not to grow anything?
| logisticsfilm wrote:
| Hi there, creators of Logistics here. Super happy to see this
| featured on Hacker News.
|
| Feel free to ask us anything!
|
| official site is logisticsartproject.com
| gtsop wrote:
| Where can we see it?
| logisticsfilm wrote:
| Right now only at the library at Johns Hopkins University in
| Baltimore. We had the full film up on Vimeo for a year but it
| was too expensive too keep it there. Its hard to find a good
| cheap place to host a movie of this length.
| corny wrote:
| The Polygon Gallery (North Vancouver, BC) hosted The Clock
| a few years ago. But staying open for a 24 hour long film
| must be much easier than for a month long film.
| radihuq wrote:
| out of curiosity, how big is the file?
|
| EDIT: never mind, I see you answered this in another
| comment:
|
| > The original film is around 10TB of mpeg2 1080p
| 25mbit/sec 25 frames per second.
|
| > We later transcoded to h264, it now clocks in at about
| 2TB.
| [deleted]
| kevinmchugh wrote:
| Could you continuously stream it on twitch or YouTube or
| the like?
| logisticsfilm wrote:
| Great idea, thanks!
|
| Since several of you have asked how to watch the movie,
| we spontaneously decided to stream the first 21 hours of
| Logistics on Twitch. Since it will soon be night here in
| Sweden, we will not be able to keep track of the stream.
| We're keeping our fingers crossed that it works.
| Unfortunately we will not be able to stream the entire
| film this time, but hope to do so later.
|
| The stream is live now at
| https://www.twitch.tv/logisticsartproject
| logisticsfilm wrote:
| Youtube has commercials which we would like to avoid, but
| we had not considered twitch. Perhaps that's a good idea.
| We have livestreamed it before, but it's quite a
| commitment to keep a stream running 24/7 for 37 days.
| junon wrote:
| Torrents?
| madmod wrote:
| Can I please buy a copy?
| logisticsfilm wrote:
| unfortunately its not for sale, but we are actively
| looking for a place to host it as a VOD again. Send us an
| email if you want to be notified if and when its
| available again. (email in profile)
| buck4roo wrote:
| Have you considered archive.org?
| gregsadetsky wrote:
| Really great suggestion -- @logisticsfilm you should
| consider it!
|
| Also https://ubu.com/ might be interested to
| host/distribute it and it's a great fit as well.
| chrismiller wrote:
| Would love to help you get this back online if you are
| interested! Happy to host it or point you in the right
| direction if you'd like to do it yourself.
| logisticsfilm wrote:
| Sounds great! Our email is in our profile.
| metadat wrote:
| Are you open to distributing via torrent?
| logisticsfilm wrote:
| So far we have chosen not to because we consider the core
| of the work to be the continuous length of the film. A
| torrent would enable timelapses and short versions. But
| we will think about it.
| t6jvcereio wrote:
| This is weird. No normal person is going to watch 857
| hours. The only person to watch that long are movie
| industry people, so they can write about it.
|
| Separate question, how do you monetize this?
| yunohn wrote:
| What's wrong with a timelapse? Seems like the perfect
| opportunity.
| djbusby wrote:
| That can/will happen regardless of distribution via Vimeo
| or torrent or YT or whatever.
|
| Torrent doesn't enable that any more than any other
| distribution channel.
| djbusby wrote:
| Is this a case for PeerTube?
| epolanski wrote:
| Split it in different pieces and upload it on YouTube?
| boomboomsubban wrote:
| Why is it silent? Was a camera with an acceptable microphone
| too expensive/difficult to maintain?
|
| The article makes a big deal out of finally seeing a person. Is
| that person aware of the movie?
|
| Sounds like an interesting film, thanks for answering questions
| about it.
| logisticsfilm wrote:
| We couldn't figure out what sound to have, so we opted for
| silence. We also hoped it would be more contemplative without
| sound.
|
| Yes he is aware that the camera is recording, he needed to
| wash the windows on the bridge.
| Balgair wrote:
| What was the hardest thing about accomplishing this?
|
| What was the easiest?
|
| Any advice for other film-makers?
| logisticsfilm wrote:
| Some of the hardest things were: - Gathering facts about the
| product, where it was manufactured and what its shipping
| routes were. - Getting permission to film during the trip. -
| Finding a technical solution (in 2011) that could record
| continuously during the entire journey of the container ship.
|
| It was comparatively easy to design the concept, it then took
| a very long time to implement.
|
| We are not professional filmmakers, but something that helped
| us was to be stubborn.
| junon wrote:
| Being stubborn is highly underrated!
| testplzignore wrote:
| How many times have you watched it yourself?
| logisticsfilm wrote:
| Since several of you have asked how to watch the movie, we
| spontaneously decided to stream the first 21 hours of Logistics
| on Twitch. Since it will soon be night here in Sweden, we will
| not be able to keep track of the stream. We're keeping our
| fingers crossed that it works. Unfortunately we will not be
| able to stream the entire film this time, but hope to do so
| later.
|
| The stream is live now at
| https://www.twitch.tv/logisticsartproject
| caymanjim wrote:
| Why did they do this backwards? It sounds like they took the trip
| in reverse. I thought they recorded it forward (tracking an
| actual object the whole time) and presented it in reverse, but it
| looks like they didn't actually follow a real object. They just
| chose a path and took the path in reverse, using the types of
| transportation that such an object might in theory have taken:
|
| > They write that, "Four years later we found ourselves on the
| largest container ship in the world on our way from Sweden to
| China." As per the trip: "We had started the journey by truck to
| Middle Sweden, then by freight train to the port of Gothenburg,
| and after four weeks at sea, we filmed from a truck again, this
| time from the port of Shenzhen to a factory in Bao'an."
|
| The idea of following a single, real object from point of
| manufacture to destination--documenting all the transfers and
| hiccups along the way--is interesting to me. Presenting it in
| reverse chronological order is an artistic decision I'm
| ambivalent about. But it doesn't sound like that's what they did.
| They didn't track a pedometer; they just took freight vehicles
| along a path that maybe the thing went on, without following the
| actual transfer of the item from box to container, from truck to
| ship, etc.
|
| I'm disappointed. I was ready to actually watch the whole thing.
| But it's contrived.
| logisticsfilm wrote:
| Absolutely, the best thing would have been to actually follow a
| specific, unique product. We tried for one and a half years to
| get the company where we bought the pedometer to cooperate with
| us. It was impossible. But we managed to get the company to
| tell us which route they used in most cases.
| gizajob wrote:
| It's only contrived in the way all art is contrived. The very
| idea of an 857 hour move mostly filming the bridge of a
| containership is a contrivance in the extreme.
| fullshark wrote:
| Your ideal film is the opening of the film Lord of War (edited
| for time).
|
| https://youtu.be/VHn1zogeyO4
| reidjs wrote:
| One of the most entertaining intros of any movie, ever.
| 1-6 wrote:
| vachina wrote:
| How did you conclude it was communism/socialism that enabled
| them to benefit from capitalism's extremes? Or is this another
| attempt at "China Bad"?
| steve76 wrote:
| dang wrote:
| Please don't take HN threads further into generic ideological
| arguments. Those are extremely repetitive and therefore off
| topic here.
|
| https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&sor...
|
| https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&so...
|
| https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
| idiocrat wrote:
| Here is more of container shipping pron.
|
| A container ship is sailing through a water highway, docks. The
| containers are getting unloaded/loaded.
|
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h16zyxiwDLY
| 7373737373 wrote:
| Also this one by JeffHK:
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AHrCI9eSJGQ
| ThinkingGuy wrote:
| Also worth a listen: the Omega Tau podcast episode on container
| ships:
|
| https://omegataupodcast.net/146-container-shipping/
| mpalmer wrote:
| Was the author inspired by the filmmakers not to edit this piece
| down to a sensible, non-redundant length?
| keepquestioning wrote:
| Container ships seem very inefficient. Is that why shipping from
| taobao is horrible?
| lifeisstillgood wrote:
| I want to see (edited highlights) of the film now.
|
| It is extraordinary but then again it's just "the container will
| be here in three weeks"
| Voloskaya wrote:
| 72 minutes edit [1].
|
| [1]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QYFG0xP12yE
| logisticsfilm wrote:
| Actually we did not create this, its made out of 2 minute
| clips we hosted on our web page a few years back. The
| original film has no sound.
| lifeisstillgood wrote:
| Well thank you for creating such an amazing piece of ...
| art / documentary / politics.
|
| Please do tell us where we can see the full work / where it
| is available.
| [deleted]
| tasuki wrote:
| > It was on, in front of my eyes, while I worked, ate and lived.
|
| Either you're working or you're watching a movie. I know people
| who claim they do both at the same time, but I don't think
| they're actually doing either.
| colinsane wrote:
| "either you're working or you're listening to music".
|
| the progression of my career has looked like this:
|
| - need total quiet: no music, no talking.
|
| - some music is fine: it can't have lyrics though and it's best
| if it's more textural.
|
| - i can listen to (and process the lyrics to) hip hop and rap
| and still type.
|
| - i can listen to YouTube educationals and catch about a third
| of the content.
|
| - i can rewatch movies i've seen before and keep up with the
| important plot parts.
|
| sure, for the parts of the day where i'm working out
| differential equations or solving circuits and such, i go back
| to silence. but if 90% of your work is just plumbing values
| from one place to another... if you've progressed anywhere
| along that sequence i listed then i think it's naive to take
| that simple "either/or" view of things.
| Swenrekcah wrote:
| It is in fact possible to do certain repetitive tasks and keep
| track of a simple movie or tv show at the same time.
|
| I find neither particularly enjoyable though.
| tasuki wrote:
| Yes, if one is doing menial work, sure. I thought the author
| was a writer, which is in my opinion creative work requiring
| full attention.
| joemi wrote:
| The author is a professional writer, so depending on what
| specific writing tasks they're doing, they may be able to
| do portions of their job almost automatically, devoting far
| less than full attention to their work. (I know a few
| writers who do this.) Additionally the movie is silent, so
| I'd imagine that leaves the language parts of the brain
| fairly free when watching the movie.
| Swenrekcah wrote:
| That's true. Although now that I read the article, the
| quoted sentence comes right after they mentioned 9 hours of
| a stationary ship so I guess it's possible to keep that on
| in the background and not miss the plot.
| [deleted]
| neilv wrote:
| If this were an ambient display on a wall in a living space or
| work space, I wonder what effect that would have on mood and
| mode.
| collegeburner wrote:
| in the same vein (tho lots shorter) i reccomend giving _I,
| Pencil_ a read: https://fee.org/resources/i-pencil/
| logisticsfilm wrote:
| oh nice! didn't know about this book.
| hef19898 wrote:
| Not a critique if the film, but rather the article ablut it:
|
| >> Logistics may have been birthed into this world in 2012, but
| the past few years have given the film a second life, with the
| pandemic laying bare the fragility of just-in-time logistics.
|
| I so hoped we got past that already... JIT had nothing to do, as
| a root cause that is, with the supply issues the world is facing
| since the pandemic. I hate this meme so much.
|
| That being said, I live the film project! Even if I would never
| watch 35 days plus on part of my day job, the idea is great so!
| causality0 wrote:
| _just how much capitalist social relations have distorted our
| ability to understand time and space._
|
| This is meaningless bullshit. The fact you can purchase, for an
| hour's wage, a digital pedometer than was built on one continent
| from raw materials from another and then shipped to a third is a
| breathtaking triumph.
| gurumeditations wrote:
| So much fluff I couldn't finish it.
| toiletfuneral wrote:
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