[HN Gopher] Cancer in the Cold
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Cancer in the Cold
Author : _Microft
Score : 166 points
Date : 2022-08-12 16:17 UTC (6 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.science.org)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.science.org)
| srvmshr wrote:
| If the hypothesis that going below 22C would activate brown fat
| burning & starving the tumor subsequently in due process, hold -
| this should have some evidence in people living in very cold
| climates (e.g. Siberians, Eskimos etc). I don't think the
| prevalence is statistically different in them. Would love to hear
| if someone knows more about it.
| [deleted]
| atwood22 wrote:
| I believe there is some evidence that those who grew up in
| colder climates prefer warmer interior temperatures. Imagine
| you live in Norway. In the winter, you need to heat your home
| so you pick a temperature you prefer. Now imagine you live in
| Seattle. You might not need to regularly heat your home to the
| degree required in Norway. When the temp dips below your normal
| temperature, you might acclimate to it instead of turning on
| the heat.
| srvmshr wrote:
| Possibly. I don't yet follow what relationship this fact has
| to finding evidence of lower cancer rates. Is it maybe you
| were answering to some other reply?
| vidarh wrote:
| This seems presumptuous to me. Living in cold climates does not
| necessarily correlate with being cold more than people living
| in warm climates.
|
| I grew up in Norway. The coldest winter I experienced saw 3
| weeks of -30 celsius. I've lived in London the last 22 years. I
| didn't freeze more in Norway. We had better insulated houses,
| and far better winter clothes, because we needed to. And so if
| anything I more frequently get "caught out" and have to add
| extra layers of clothing etc. in the UK because you can get
| away with not being prepared for a cold winter here, while in
| Norway you _will_ have a proper winter coat etc.
| kmtrowbr wrote:
| Yes -- my wife and I are both from the northern midwest. We
| live in San Francisco now. We are actually colder here in the
| winters, then we ever were in the midwest, because houses in
| San Francisco are not insulated, and don't have good heating
| systems. Whereas houses in the midwest are essentially little
| heating plants.
|
| Life in the midwest is organized around staying warm and it
| works very well.
|
| We do appreciate the blue skies and the sun of California,
| however. In the midwest in the winter, you can often go weeks
| without seeing the sun.
|
| We also like the houses in California. They're historic and
| beautiful and in many cases greatly elegant. Also, easy
| (arguably continuous) outdoor access is a beautiful thing.
| But there is great irony in paper mache houses being,
| relatively, so much more expensive.
| srvmshr wrote:
| > _This seems presumptuous to me. Living in cold climates
| does not necessarily correlate with being cold more than
| people living in warm climates._
|
| I understand the sentiment. While we have done climate
| control to our comforts, I am talking of environmental
| factors at large. Just because Norway has great heating &
| insulation doesn't imply Scandinavian climates are as good as
| Spanish ones. We get exposed to lower temperature climates in
| higher latitudes, and that thermal effect if any should add
| up over the few decades of human lifespan or even in the
| genetic assessment in terms of prevalence (in my OP). We are
| talking in statistical sense - not an individual trial.
|
| Proper & consistent indoor thermal regulation have been
| around in past few decades, whereas useful medical record
| keeping has been around for a good two centuries in most of
| Europe & America (maybe slightly longer). So, my
| inquisitiveness is to check if this hypothesis matches with
| statistical observations in the northern population. And
| several medical studies do factor in environmental
| temperature (going by my brief exposure during grad school).
| These factors are not disregarded because we have great ACs
| for temperature management or sunscreens to block the UV. If
| human interventions could so effectively mitigate, skin
| cancer prevalence would be uniform around the globe (which
| absolutely isn't) due to effective sunscreens sold nowadays.
| TrevorJ wrote:
| I think the more important factor here is _internal_ body
| temperature, and if people living in colder climates
| exhibit the sorts of adaptations related in the article. It
| 's quite possible to be outdoors in very cold conditions
| and have little to no core body temperature changes.
| srvmshr wrote:
| AFAICT, homeostatic temperature in humans does not vary
| by a great deal. It is 37+-1degC always. I haven't come
| across a study where any large deviation was stated.
|
| Human bodies lose heat very quickly. We evolved from a
| primate line which lived in South Central African plains.
| Our hand/feet digits are great radiators. Although still
| debated, our skin tone originally could have been light,
| much like the skin under the primate coats (with brown
| and African skin tones being later developments in
| evolution, when we started to get less furry & produced
| higher melatonin). So the evidence generally points in
| the direction that we are just another warm-blooded
| species without much thermal attributes. Given that,
| environment should show some kind of statistical
| difference if this cancer pathway's reliance on
| temperature is so pronounced. Its hard to measure,
| because there are several confounders in the
| biochemistry. It is also hard to find a body of people
| who have lived in both cold & hotter climates
| simultaneously to make direct comparisons
|
| Edit: some more details.
| cellis wrote:
| Never come to Michigan, ( Or Minnesota, or North Dakota ), in
| the winter!
|
| https://www.thrillist.com/travel/nation/us-states-with-
| the-w...
| Supermancho wrote:
| The inhabited Minnesota and North Dakota areas haven't seen
| multiple weeks of -30C/-22F in a very long time. Global
| Warming has affected these places as well. Not to say it
| doesn't reach <-22F at times (only down to -10F for a day
| or 2 in 2020 for Fargo, ND), but it's never weeks of that
| cold.
| morog wrote:
| Had 2 Swedish people visiting Cape Town over winter, they
| said it was the coldest winter of their lives...the houses
| have no insulation, windows &doors drafty. Average house
| temperature indoors approx 10-15celcius.
| forinti wrote:
| So a Russian professor came to teach in the south of Brazil
| (roughly same latitude as Cape Town). Apparently he had
| never experienced so much cold. Temperatures are rarely
| negative, but houses aren't heated.
| refactor_master wrote:
| Being from Scandinavia myself I've also visited Southern
| Europe several times during winter, thinking I'll get a
| boost of sunshine, and it'll be like spring. But the 10 C
| _inside_ gets me every damn time, because as soon as you
| stop moving and sit down, you start freezing over.
|
| My own apartment is so heavily insulated that even in the
| winter, it's almost to make the indoor temperature drop
| below 20!
| Ecco wrote:
| Out of curiosity, would you mind linking to a few
| brand/models of what you would consider a proper winter coat?
| I have mostly lived in milder climates and would be
| interested in knowing what kind of gear can keep you warm by
| -30C
| zen_1 wrote:
| Not -30C, but something similar to this[1] jacket on top of
| a shirt and warm undershirt have kept me reasonably warm in
| -20C canadian winters. The best way to stay warm is to have
| a windproof outer layer, then layer up (light layers!)
| underneath to trap the warm air close to you.
|
| [1]: https://www.columbia.com/p/mens-centerport-ii-jacket
| ---tall-...
| fpoling wrote:
| The observation about wind proof outer layer is spot on.
| On the other hand the jacket from the link is too short
| for my taste. It requires special trousers to match.
|
| One needs something that reaches knees to stay warm in
| lighter trousers.
| JamesBarney wrote:
| Cold also seems to dampen the immune system which could
| theoretically increase the rate of cancer incidence.
| fpoling wrote:
| Eskimo people have a mutation related to metabolism that
| prevents going to keto state when eating mostly meat. That
| alone can make proposed mechanism not working for them.
|
| Plus the persistent cold exposure may not be there due to warm
| clothes.
|
| For me more interesting is the story of cancer among aboriginal
| population of Australia. They do not use much clothes and at
| night there it can be rather cold.
| icegreentea2 wrote:
| I think there are likely many many confounding factors that
| would make extracting that data difficult. Separate from
| environmental/cultural factors we know that traditionally cold-
| weather cultures (Inuit for example) have genetic adaptions,
| including within the brown-fat cell pathways (for example:
| https://www.nature.com/articles/525429d). This would also make
| for confounders.
|
| I think it's reasonable to go look for existing evidence, but
| it'd also be difficult to extrapolate.
| starwind wrote:
| Does this relate to the Krebs cycle running backwards thing that
| was talked about earlier this week?
|
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32392937
| darepublic wrote:
| I believe I encountered similar ideas googling wim hoff and the
| cold exposure therapy stuff. There was a time in my life where I
| was taking cold showers in the morning for a different
| therapeutic purpose, to cure depression. I can tell you that for
| the duration of the cold shower my existential angst was no
| longer top of mind.
| SubiculumCode wrote:
| then you start reading things like: cold weather increases the
| risk of heart attacks, constricting blood vessels, etc, and
| suddenly that cold shower doesn't just feel shocking, it feels
| existentially dangerous!
| soperj wrote:
| Or it could be like brucine in Count of Monte Cristo, as your
| body gets used to it, it's less likely to kill you.
| User23 wrote:
| Good old Selye. It's generally true that a stressor that
| doesn't overcome the body's capacity will result in
| adaptation toward future instances thereof.
|
| Of course there are limits, as the idiot who tried working
| his way up from BBs to develop a bullet immunity learned
| the hard way.
| soperj wrote:
| >Of course there are limits, as the idiot who tried
| working his way up from BBs to develop a bullet immunity
| learned the hard way.
|
| shut up, i don't believe you. Actually??
| kevin_thibedeau wrote:
| It's risky for people who have already developed health
| issues. That doesn't make it dangerous for healthy people.
| SubiculumCode wrote:
| it was a bit tongue in cheek, but really I was alluding to
| the broader issue where some
| conditions/treatments/lifestyles/etc both decrease and
| increase different risk factors.
| agumonkey wrote:
| I often wondered about a primal reptilian brain therapy. Where
| you overload your brain with deep priorities. Physical EMDR.
| april_22 wrote:
| not only that, cold water also helps with obesity and type 2
| diabetes
|
| https://you.com/search?q=cold+exposure+therapy+for+obesity
| [deleted]
| [deleted]
| RcouF1uZ4gsC wrote:
| > I can tell you that for the duration of the cold shower my
| existential angst was no longer top of mind.
|
| I bet you if you hit your thumb hard with a hammer, your
| existential angst will also no longer be at the the top of your
| mind.
|
| Likely, any significant physical acute discomfort will remove
| existential angst from the top of your mind.
| alfor wrote:
| I think that we need a bit of physical discomfort to push
| against.
|
| We have created an environment with the least amount of
| effort and variations and as a result the more prevalent
| diseases are the result of too much calories and not enough
| effort exerted.
| darepublic wrote:
| Yeah that is kind of what I was low key trying to impart.
| That I couldn't be sure it was working. Certainly it was no
| silver bullet
| TrevorJ wrote:
| I'm pretty sure that's the joke OP was making :)
| etothepii wrote:
| Wouldn't an easy test for this be to look at cancer rates in the
| winter/summer?
| justsocrateasin wrote:
| For pure cancer rates, no, it's still a relatively slow
| progressing disease and a cancer may grow more in the winter
| only to be diagnosed in the summer.
|
| I guess you could look at cancer growth rates during
| winter/summer, however we live in relatively controlled
| environments. I don't think you could control for AC usage /
| how much time you spend outside versus outside.
| JoeAltmaier wrote:
| Arctic populations used to have low cancer rates. Nowadays its
| up, especially lung cancer in males. Maybe this reflects the cold
| climate, but heated housing (and tobacco use) have negated the
| historical benefit?
| [deleted]
| samstave wrote:
| I built a hospotal in Nome AK.
|
| I'd never been in such cold climate - even growing up in
| tahoe... Stepping into the cold air and feeling your nose hairs
| crystalize is a weird feeling - I can imagine huffing a
| cigarette in that cold... but I suppose ? the cigarette may
| warm the air slightly?
|
| It was -40 F on typical days in the winter months - and there
| were Inuits who would stand outside the back of the old
| hospital and smoke in minus 40 degrees. and looking like any
| place else outside. There are a lot of heavy smokers in that
| area it seems.
|
| (The hospital had a drunk tank for the alcohol problem in the
| tribes, where they dont arrest you for being drunk, they throw
| you in the tank and one has to deal with tribal council for
| such matters. It was important because very often people got
| too drunk in the cold and pass out on way home and freeze to
| death.)
| BbzzbB wrote:
| Reminds me how often I used to stand or sit outside in
| (Quebec's) winter completely miserable with fingers hurting
| just for some nicotine, day or night. Good times. One of my
| favorite parts of having quit (on top of health, stink and
| money of course) was not leaving my living room repeatedly to
| go freeze for 5 minutes at a time. So satisfying.
|
| FWIW, I recall the smoke didn't really have a warming effect.
| After all, I reckon your throat should still be around body
| temperature even if it's <-30C outside (for the record, -40C
| is -40F, -30C is -22F), the mild warmth from the smoke wasn't
| really perceptible.
| nradov wrote:
| In Canada the police intentionally caused some drunken tribal
| members to freeze to death by dropping them off out in the
| cold.
|
| https://gladue.usask.ca/node/2860
| samstave wrote:
| Canada has some dark shit. SORRY.
|
| --
|
| The tribal internment and rape and trafficking and fucking
| of tribal minors in the fields around their "schools" of
| pedophiles that rape and murder kids.
|
| Yes, this is a real thing. They actually did this and
| covered it up with the help of.... (The reason the purple
| color is associated iwth royalty has nothing to do with the
| crushing of sea snails to create purple dyes for garments.)
| twobitshifter wrote:
| I did an experiment in college on exvivo cells. We lowered the
| temperature and then applied radiation treatment. At lower
| temperatures cells can go to hibernation state and uptake less
| oxygen. Oxygen radicals are what kill healthy cells during
| radiation. We were actually pretty successful in increasing
| survivability compared to the base case.
| alfor wrote:
| Have you seen that infrared light is use to create melatonin in
| the mitochondria, sweeping up the free radicals?
|
| Personally, I cured my winter eczema with a bit of infrared
| light.
| gwerbret wrote:
| Bit of a tangent, but Derek Lowe is a great example of an
| exceedingly rare species -- a competent science writer. His
| writing manages to be engaging (and occasionally hilarious [0])
| while still providing the reader with enough information, clearly
| delivered, to understand the topic. It probably helps that,
| unlike the myriad journalists and PR types who call themselves
| science writers, he actually knows what he's talking about.
|
| [0]: https://www.science.org/content/blog-post/things-i-won-t-
| wor...
| hprotagonist wrote:
| he remains primarily employed doing the job at the bench.
|
| that distinguishes him from every other scicomm name i can
| think of, and accounts in part for this fact.
| Hayvok wrote:
| I come across that dioxygen difluoride article of his every few
| years and it still makes me laugh (and shudder) every time.
| Thanks for providing my 2022 reading of it. Looking forward to
| next time.
| function_seven wrote:
| Chemistry:"That FOOF Article"::Aviation:"That SR-71 Speed
| Check Story"
|
| I've also read it a few times now (as well as that SR-71
| story). Some real staying power!
| jiggawatts wrote:
| The article of his that I re-read regularly is titled _"Sand
| won't save you this time."_ The topic is Chlorine
| Trifluoride, which will burn asbestos firebrick!
|
| https://www.science.org/content/blog-post/sand-won-t-save-
| yo...
| nope96 wrote:
| Isn't 22 C == 71.6deg Fahrenheit ? That sounds like standard room
| temperature, not cold
| majkinetor wrote:
| So it seems that both very cold and very hot are good for cancer
| prevention/delay.
|
| Cold influences the glucose uptake while hot influences the
| immune system and probaly also promote ROS which normal cells can
| fight off better then cancer.
|
| Metformin + low carb + sauna + cold room seem like great
| combination.
| soperj wrote:
| You'd think there would be a lower rate of cancer in places
| like Finland then, since they really enjoy their saunas and
| have relatively colder weather.
| markkat wrote:
| Works for heart disease and likely all cause mortality.
|
| https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/30486813/
|
| https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/35908583/
| e40 wrote:
| It may be cold in those places but why do you assume body
| temperature is any different there? Humans are good at
| regulating that, with layering and building heat.
| timonoko wrote:
| Finns truly have lower body temperatures. 35.3degC right
| now.
|
| According to american internets I am suffering from
| constant "hypothermia".
|
| Also I am obviously sufferring from "bradycardia", it is
| not normal that 70-year old has resting pulse 45.
| SketchySeaBeast wrote:
| Not knowing your own personal health no one can say, but
| it's common for older people with heart issues to have a
| slower heart rate, so you may be fit as a horse, or you
| could be having heart issues. If that's the case low
| temperature has been linked to poor outcomes with heart
| failure. But only your GP can decide. It just doesn't
| feel like the slam dunk proof of better health you're
| saying it is.
| timonoko wrote:
| This condition been the same for 50 years. I am worried
| when it changes.
|
| I am pretty sure this is somekind of hereditary trait for
| Tundra dwellers. If I dont sweat, mosquitoes do not
| bother me. Also all ticks drop off or just die.
| SketchySeaBeast wrote:
| > Also all ticks drop off or just die.
|
| Ok, now I'm definitely worried about your blood.
| timonoko wrote:
| Achually there was one successful tick-bite. It was July
| 1957. It managed to suck some blood, but removed itself
| rightaway when mother Noko burned it with cigarette.
| SketchySeaBeast wrote:
| Ah, and it told the others.
| mattkrause wrote:
| I'm half worried and half envious.
| soperj wrote:
| That's interesting. I have a very low resting heart-rate
| and lower than normal body temperature as well. (Also
| from a northern area).
| mdonahoe wrote:
| Is this why whales don't die of cancer very often?
| hangonhn wrote:
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D1HFP84RXak
|
| Part of it is they have a lower metabolic rate. They may also
| have a better version of tumor suppressing genes than most
| mammals. Elephants have the same version as us but expressed
| many more times.
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