[HN Gopher] A shortage of Dijon mustard in France
___________________________________________________________________
A shortage of Dijon mustard in France
Author : samizdis
Score : 149 points
Date : 2022-08-12 09:25 UTC (13 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.economist.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.economist.com)
| denton-scratch wrote:
| "Dijon" mustard isn't really a thing. It's not a protected
| designation, it's generic; 80% of Dijon Mustard is made from
| Canadian seeds, and no Dijon mustard is produced in Dijon.
| mytailorisrich wrote:
| It's true that origin is not protected but it is a thing and
| essentially refers to the production method/recipe/style. So it
| means "Dijon style" mustard.
| kergonath wrote:
| Without paywall here: https://archive.ph/5Qccg
| phtrivier wrote:
| Does game theory has any clue about how a non centrally planned
| system can avoid creating SPOFs ?
|
| Asking for friend living in a globalized economy that is going to
| traverse turbulences for a few decades.
| [deleted]
| sofixa wrote:
| Government intervention in the form of
| subsidies/taxes/regulations looks like it's the only realistic
| way.
| nightski wrote:
| I grew mustard for the first time this year simply because I love
| it. Was a very fun experience, going to do even better next year.
| evilc00kie wrote:
| Funny thing. We still have Dijon but lack with regional mustard
| like Bautzner.
| smcl wrote:
| Supposedly a blight afflicting grapevines, leading to a collapse
| in wine (and therefore brandy) production contributed to the
| popularity of Scotch whisky outside Scotland. I wonder if the
| decline in Dijon mustard will turn the French on to English
| mustard :)
| zerohalo wrote:
| god forbid!
| jiggunjer wrote:
| Or wasabi
| voxadam wrote:
| That hurts. My life would be substantially less rich without
| Dijon. I _love_ mustard. Mustard is truly the king of condiments.
| mantas wrote:
| You can try growing your own mustard. I hear it's not that
| hard.
| ben_w wrote:
| But it's only Dijon mustard if it's from the Dijon region,
| otherwise it's just a sparkling yellow condiment. ;)
| mantas wrote:
| you should be able to replicate whatever special soil you
| need with hidroponics
| lizknope wrote:
| I think they are making fun of the European Union's law
| on protected designation of origin. You can make
| something that tastes like champagne but you can't call
| it champagne unless it is from the Champagne region of
| France. You have to call it sparkling wine or something
| else. It's the same for parmesan cheese and many other
| products.
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protected_designation_of_or
| igi...
| ben_w wrote:
| Indeed, I was. If the mustard is _sparkling_ , I don't
| recommend eating it.
| devchix wrote:
| May I introduce you to Nathan's Spicey Brown Mustard and
| Kosciusko Spicey Brown Mustard? I think of it as the American
| answer to Dijon.
| sbf501 wrote:
| There's also moutard de Bourgogn which is a bit spicier than
| DOC Dijon if you can't find the latter (most regions have their
| own blend and they are all similar).
| magicalhippo wrote:
| So I'm just a casual pleb who enjoys mustard on various
| sandwiches and such.
|
| I've only tried a small number of Dijon-labelled mustards, but
| they've all been radically different. I'd say the only thing
| they had in common was being mustards and the texture.
|
| That said, mustard is indeed a must for a lot of things.
| gilrain wrote:
| They should all have white wine as part of their formulation.
| magicalhippo wrote:
| Mustard and white wine, gotcha. That still leaves quite the
| space for the variation in taste that I've experienced.
|
| My Dijon quest got started since I really like the flavor
| profile of the Maille Dijon mustard with certain kinds of
| deli meat, but I find it too strong so I can't use as much
| as I'd like. So I was hoping for something with a similar
| flavor profile but with less heat.
|
| I've yet to find a replacement, but I have found a few
| others that I really enjoy for other sandwiches so.
| cesaref wrote:
| I can recommend mustard powder if you haven't used it, and try
| mixing up your own mustard to a strength you appreciate, with
| or without any vinegar, or other combinations (honey etc).
| sph wrote:
| As someone that grew up with French culture and Dijon mustard,
| as soon as I first tasted the mild American version it became
| my favourite condiment.
|
| French, and worse, English mustard are far too violent, and
| it's not as pleasant a pain as a strong chili pepper.
| dghughes wrote:
| There always has been since farmers refuse to grow mustard seed
| due to government red tape. Dijon only has a small amount locally
| grown and almost none in France. As mentioned the majority of
| mustard seed for Dijon comes from Canada. Any Dijon from France
| grown in France is called Burgundy so really Dijon is pretty much
| the tourist version.
| kranke155 wrote:
| sources.
| parkingrift wrote:
| This article. Everything OP said is in this article.
| LatteLazy wrote:
| I wonder how many geographic food labels will be able to survive
| climate change (not sure whether that is the specific issue here
| but in general...).
| bionsystem wrote:
| It's part of the issue. And I believe it's going to be pretty
| bad.
|
| For example in France, we already see some wines and champagnes
| change taste. After such a hot summer the next batch of a few
| domains, gathered in fall, will probably contain many
| disappointments. Other regions which used to not have great
| conditions might become much more interesting to grow raisin.
| Maybe some clever (or lucky) guy will buy the next good fields
| while some of the existing domains will go bankrupt.
|
| This is just an example of course.
| LatteLazy wrote:
| I honestly wonder if buying land 100xkm north of current high
| value areas and waiting 20 years is a viable investment
| strategy. Some smart billionaire with a bunch of geographers
| is likely going to make a killing...
| hef19898 wrote:
| Last weekend the only mustard we find when visiting family in
| France was German brands.
|
| So yeah, last years shortfalls in mustard yields in Canada, the
| current draught in Europe preventing France to increase local
| rpoduction and the war Ukraine preventing imports from either
| Russia or Ukraine hurts. Luckily we still have some stock, even
| mustard looses some taste over time even if kept in cold and dry
| storage and was never opened...
| zwaps wrote:
| It's funny, I can totally see how a French person would never
| buy German brands. Interestingly though, the "Lowensenf" brand
| from Germany apparently produces mustard made like in Dijon, so
| it would be a good substitute in principle...
| hef19898 wrote:
| Knowing both, proper Dijon (incl. "industrial" ones) and
| Lowensenf mustard I'd say Lowensenf is at best a poor
| alternative. Not that itbis bad mustard, it is just something
| completely different.
| zwaps wrote:
| Well I checked and they do have an actual Dijon mustard as
| well :D
| hef19898 wrote:
| I'll have to look for that! But then we are picky when it
| comes to mustard, Maille for example is usually rather
| easy to find in Germany but completely unacceptable on
| the dinner table! What can I say...
| kergonath wrote:
| I tend not to buy German brands. Not because they are bad or
| anything, but because their mustard was quite different
| (usually sweeter, less sharp, or less sour) every time I
| tried. They could be used as an ersatz in a pinch, but I'd
| rather have the stuff I am used to and which won't mess with
| my usual recipes.
|
| I know that there are some German mustards that are very
| close to Dijon, but on balance the risk is much lower going
| with a French brand.
| froh wrote:
| you need "Extra scharf" extra hot to get Dijon Mustard
| taste. Lowensenf Extra Scharf is just fine for that.
| kergonath wrote:
| I'll try that one next time, thanks :)
| rightbyte wrote:
| > usually sweeter, less sharp, or less sour
|
| Is Dijon used for anything but cooking? I can't see myself
| having a non-sweet mustard on a sausage etc. But use dijon
| in cooking or sallads.
| hef19898 wrote:
| Sure, it depends on the sausage so. As a Bavarian with
| French inlaws I have obviously some complex rules around
| which mustard is acceptable with which kind of sausage.
| Dijon is great woth French fries and steaks so. Which is
| one reason why mustard is scrce in France, the French
| simply consume more of it.
| sofixa wrote:
| I've also seen Bulgarian brand mustard.
| josu wrote:
| >Usually French manufacturers import from Canada some 80% of
| the 35,000 tonnes of seeds they need. Last year, however, a
| drought struck the provinces of Alberta and Saskatchewan, where
| most of the crop is grown. The Canadian harvest was about half
| of that in a normal year.
|
| Is anyone even reading the article?
| xyzzy_plugh wrote:
| This is HN, nobody reads the article.
| froh wrote:
| yes. right after your quote the article continues with no
| compensation for the bad canadian harvest from ukraine or
| russian harvests, because of the war, which is what GP said.
| NoblePublius wrote:
| There are eight varieties of Dijon mustard available to me for
| 2-hour delivery by Amazon Fresh right now in Miami. Five of them
| are made in France. Fake news?
| pluies wrote:
| > There is a shortage of Dijon mustard *in France*
| NoblePublius wrote:
| Because they're exporting it all to Miami? This story makes
| no sense.
| Sakos wrote:
| I'm not sure what's confusing about regional shortages.
| insane_dreamer wrote:
| it's not unusual for exports to take priority over the
| local market since the former is often more lucrative;
|
| also, there probably aren't as many people in Miami buying
| Dijon mustard as in France ...
| notorandit wrote:
| In a limited world, all supplies are limited. So, aiming at
| everyone (~ 7B ppl) can have everything can easily hit such a
| simple limit.
| Dylan16807 wrote:
| Unless average tastes rapidly swing, that shouldn't be an
| issue. People only need so much in the way of spices and
| condiments, and there's plenty of space to grow them in.
| draw_down wrote:
| trebligdivad wrote:
| Can you vertically farm mustard? It sounds perfect for it.
| baud147258 wrote:
| > France has been gripped by the mystery of the Dijon mustard
| shortage.
|
| At least for me, I knew it was coming from supply issues with
| Canada's mustard seeds (however I was thinking it was caused by
| last year's fires, not a drought)
| dekhn wrote:
| Huh. I can buy a pound of mustard seeds on Amazon and make my own
| spicy brown. This changes everything.
| [deleted]
| BrandoElFollito wrote:
| I was yesterday at my shopping center (a _Super U_ ) and for some
| reason I had a look at the oil and mustard as I read about this
| earlier in the week.
|
| Plenty of oils and plenty of mustards.
| baud147258 wrote:
| I don't often check that part of the shop, but in the monoprix
| (near Paris) where I usually get my groceries, there hasn't
| been any Dijon mustard for a few months
| topbanana wrote:
| I was in Bordeaux last week and they were out of Dijon mustard.
| It's the best for dressing and many classic sauces
| hef19898 wrote:
| Cora in the north east only had Lowensenf and Alnatura from
| Germany. It depends on overall stock and indiviual supply
| chains between supermarket chains and regions.
| differentView wrote:
| The article is specifically discussing a shortage in Dijon
| Mustard in France.
| prvit wrote:
| Given the Super U reference, gp is presumably in France.
| BrandoElFollito wrote:
| Yes, in France and I checked for Dijon mustard. I must keep
| the name of my Super U secret or we will have an invasion
| :)
| pabs3 wrote:
| Are there no brown mustard seeds grown in France?
| eastbound wrote:
| New laws on pesticide make it difficult to do, so a lot of
| farms have repurposed to other plants.
| idk1 wrote:
| I'm in Britan and I'm not sure I've ever bought a hot dog here,
| let alone have it slathered in mustard. Every BBQ I've been to
| it's regular sausages and ketchup, maybe some un-opened mustard
| near by.
| bregma wrote:
| You slather American mustard onto a hot dog; it's sweet and
| sour and may or may not contain any actual mustard flour.
| English mustard is a whole different beast with a sharp, hot
| flavour. French ("Dijon" in the USA) mustard is different
| again, and focuses on the mustardy flavour. German mustard is
| in between English and French styles and ideal for a good pork
| sausage.
|
| Now, when there's a shortage of yer Dijon ketchup, that's when
| you're going to see Americans up in arms, with apologies to the
| BNL.
| gilrain wrote:
| I'd love to try an American mustard with no mustard in it.
| Would you mind sharing any brand which fits this description?
|
| Or, did you mean American yellow mustard isn't usually spicy?
| That doesn't mean there isn't mustard in it.
| mod wrote:
| It's a common trend to make claims like this, particularly
| about food.
|
| For instance, my brother loves to tell you how there's no
| "real chicken" in a McChicken sandwich.
| poooogles wrote:
| English mustard is food of the gods. Tracklements (few miles
| from where I'm typing now) Strong English Mustard especially
| so. Might be a regional thing (or a class/culture thing?), but
| mustard goes in lots of stuff where I am in the south.
| samizdis wrote:
| Good old-fashioned yellow English mustard is the go-to
| condiment for cold cuts of beef and ham, for pork pies and
| scotch eggs, for grilled steak and gammon, and it beats
| ketchup hollow when it comes to the bacon sarnie. Clean,
| crisp, and hot without being uncomfortably so.
| bowsamic wrote:
| > hot without being uncomfortably so.
|
| ?? English mustard is almost noxious
| beardyw wrote:
| You need to take into account how strong it is before you
| add great dollops of it to your food. It's great stuff
| when used wisely.
| oneeyedpigeon wrote:
| Obviously, this is in the taste buds of the beholder. I
| (English) find English mustard has a nice kick, but it's
| definitely not _strong_. It 's nowhere near as strong as
| chilli sauce, for example.
|
| I do also like the flavour of American mustard, you just
| have to use very different quantities. I would recommend
| something like 5-10x the amount of US mustard to UK
| mustard. A jar of Colmans mustard should last you a year
| or so.
| tallanvor wrote:
| The tiny jars of Colman's I can get lasts me like a
| month!
|
| But you can't compare English mustard to hot (chili)
| sauces - they're not the same type of spiciness at all.
| English mustard packs a great kick like you'll get from
| good horseradish sauces or wasabi, which isn't surprising
| since they're all in the same family. You get the feeling
| of the sinuses clearing, but there's no heat/burning
| sensation that sticks around in your mouth. Both of these
| are great additions to the right foods.
| rowanajmarshall wrote:
| > It's nowhere near as strong as chilli sauce, for
| example.
|
| I dunno about that, I can slather stuff in a strong
| chilli sauce and can happily eat up to Madras curries
| (vindaloo with some discomfort) but English mustard
| _kills_ me.
| idk1 wrote:
| I have a dab on things, it's like silly hot sauce, just a
| dab is needed. This 'slathering' in the article would end
| up in the emergency room.
| arethuza wrote:
| "it beats ketchup hollow when it comes to the bacon sarnie"
|
| Sorry - that's just wrong, probably should be illegal. ;-)
|
| Brown sauce (HP if you are posh) that's the _only_ thing to
| have on a bacon sarnie.
| cameronh90 wrote:
| I think maybe GP was reacting to this line from the article:
| "Much of it is the Dijon variety, a condiment that comes with
| a nose-tingling kick, not the milder and sweeter sauce
| slathered on hot dogs in Britain or America."
|
| It's a bit of a strange statement to me also. Hot dog stands
| aren't much of a thing here, and Dijon or English mustard are
| much more common than French's Yellow Mustard or whatever.
|
| But yeah, English mustard or Dijon goes into a lot of stuff
| in my kitchen.
| idk1 wrote:
| Oh yes for sure, I just meant I don't have it slather on
| sausages. I think my face would fold in on itself if I had
| more than a dash of English mustard. I like it on the side of
| susage and mash, or toad in the hole, but certainly not lots
| in a bun.
| ndsipa_pomu wrote:
| I take exception to having English mustard lumped in with U.S.
| mustard.
|
| English mustard is in no way "milder and sweeter" than Dijon
| mustard - quite the opposite. I'd like to see the author eat a
| U.S. hot-dog (they're not particularly common in Britain)
| slathered in English mustard without their eyes watering.
| rmetzler wrote:
| The mustard seed shortage due to the war in Ukraine also affects
| at least some of the German brands. Bautz'ner Mittelscharfer Senf
| - a staple in eastern Germany - is really hard to get.
| technotarek wrote:
| Vacationing in France as I write (but still reading HN). It was a
| surreal moment when our French family called before our departure
| asking if we could pack a jar or two for them!
|
| I guess I won't fully understand until a peanut butter shortage
| hits the States. We nonetheless took their request seriously :)
| kurupt213 wrote:
| Dijon mustard is an essential sauce ingredient for many dishes
| matsemann wrote:
| I remember the butter crisis in Norway a few years ago. Just
| before Christmas, and everyone wanted to bake their families'
| traditional cookies. But no butter. Quite a horror show! My mom
| was in Denmark at the time, and bought like 20 packets back to
| Norway to distribute among friends haha.
|
| https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norwegian_butter_crisis
| smcl wrote:
| I dunno how famous this was within Norway, but the Norwegian
| butter crisis is mainly known within my circle of friends
| because of a video called "A Butter message to the USA!" by a
| Norwegian comedian:
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ub0GzU56YMA
|
| The different pronunciations of "refridgerator" and the
| threat to break into your house and eat all your butter in
| front of you and your family had me in tears the first time I
| saw it :D
| languageserver wrote:
| The Danish were all over that, saying Norwegians now
| spreading the butterless plague to Denmark as well by
| hoarding all the butter supplies
| themadturk wrote:
| If I may ask, which non-French dijon mustard did you bring
| them? As a dijon-lover myself, I just wonder what the closest
| match, or an acceptable substitute, to French dijon would be
| (I'm in the U.S.).
| technotarek wrote:
| Grey Poupon (French Dijon) was readily available at our local
| grocery store in DC. I assume the incentives to divert the
| supplies from the US to France aren't quite there yet.
| chasebank wrote:
| Just latching on to a top comment for exposure.
|
| About a month ago, Business Insider put out a cool little video
| on french dijon mustard and why it's so expensive / hard to
| get. Fun little watch.
|
| [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4nVOhHo0puE
| gniv wrote:
| And the Dijon mustard shortage led to a mustard shortage. Until a
| couple of weeks ago I could not find any mustard in any
| supermarket here (near Paris). It was a bit surreal the first
| time I was told.
| jiggywiggy wrote:
| They don't mention it, but one of the reasons the mustard seeds
| are not available in the Dijon region is because EU has been
| heavily subsidizing bio-energy crops like rapeseed for the last
| decades (which coincidentally also looks a lot like mustardseed)
|
| Good or bad, I don't know.
| Yoric wrote:
| I also seem to understand that growing mustard seeds requires
| lots of pesticides that are considered harmful to environment
| or farmers in the EU. Easier to buy it from countries with
| different regulations.
| jiggywiggy wrote:
| yeah and pesticide rules on non-edible crops used for bio-
| fuels are often much more relaxed. It's also why it might not
| always be a good idea to live next to a flower farm.
| [deleted]
| kurupt213 wrote:
| canola is in the mustard family
| treeman79 wrote:
| Government paying people to burn food supplies.
| ajsnigrutin wrote:
| There's a reason for that... They already produce or import
| enough food, so with growing plants for biodiesel:
|
| 1) you get some small amount of oil out of it.
|
| 2) if shit hits the fan, you have local farmers, with all the
| equipment and knowledge/training, who can immediately switch
| to food production if needed. The alternative would be to
| train new farmers, buy new equipment, etc., which would take
| a long, long time (especially if the government is organizing
| it), and there's that saying about two missed meals and a
| revolution, and french leaders really really don't want
| another revolution.
| pdpi wrote:
| This general principle applies to a lot of seemingly-
| irrational government action: it's effectively buying
| insurance.
|
| We all understand that, in an ideal world, most forms of
| (consumer-focused) insurance are a blackhole that you dump
| money into and never actually get any money back, _because
| insurance only pays out if things go awry_.
|
| Subsidising strategic industries like farming falls under
| that exact same rubric. Ideally you don't ever want to cash
| in on that investment, but it's important that it's there.
| The CHIPS Act in the US is an example of this idea exactly.
| In a world where China is getting more aggressive around
| Taiwan, US-based foundries are an (expensive) insurance
| policy.
| HWR_14 wrote:
| > who can immediately switch to food production if needed.
|
| I think farming is not as fungible as you think.
|
| > which would take a long, long time (especially if the
| government is organizing it),
|
| The government seems pretty adept at forcing people to
| learn some basic skills pretty fast and forcing others to
| make heavy equipment when wars occur.
| wizardofdos wrote:
| 3) you contribute to loss of biodiversity through increased
| land use for intensive farming (monoculture, high chemical
| use)
|
| 4) co2 balance of those 'biofuels' is way worse than fuels
| refined from extracted fossil fuels
|
| 5) additional supply of these fuels lowers fuel prices
| thereby slowing shift to renewable energy sources (i.e.
| renewable electricity)
|
| 6) simply paying farmers for fallow fields is a much
| simpler solution to the problem
| ajsnigrutin wrote:
| I agree with the first points, but if you pay farmers not
| to farm, you'll get farmers who don't farm, you'll get
| farmers with more fields that they can use (because
| they'll have fields for 100% of what they can produce +
| extra ones for governments money), and you'll get
| speculative investors investing in empty fields to
| collect money.
|
| So, when shit hits the fan, you have farmers who can't
| increase production, because they don't have the
| resources, and you get speculative investors who jump
| ship, plus a lot of empty fields and hungry citizens,
| revolution, guillotines, etc.
|
| If those areas are now producing crops, you have a
| guarantee, that the farmer can actually handle those
| fields, that the equipment is in working order, you know
| how much they can produce, and all it takes is just to
| switch the corn for eg. ethanol to corn fit for humans to
| eat.
| Dylan16807 wrote:
| > co2 balance of those 'biofuels' is way worse than fuels
| refined from extracted fossil fuels
|
| By what metric? You get out much more energy than you put
| in. And when we're talking about keeping farms active,
| that land wasn't going to be doing something
| significantly better wrt carbon if the subsidy didn't
| exist.
| wikfwikf wrote:
| 4 & 5 are simply nonsense.
|
| 3 does not really apply in France. There are extensive
| swathes of country which are hugely monocultured already
| with food crops. At the same time small farming,
| economically uncompetitive types of farming, and other
| forms of land stewardship are extensively supported by
| the state in various ways. The question of monoculture is
| much more complicated than to think that growing rape for
| biodiesel is going to remove biodiversity.
| jiggywiggy wrote:
| I think you give to much credit to the EU.
|
| The main reasoning is something like this:
|
| Climate change bad, green bio fuels good, subsidize as much
| as possible. We're subsidizing farmers like crazy anyway so
| maybe we can turn that fund into align with our other goals
| a bit. Oh wow we didn't realize there would be side
| effects.
| GuB-42 wrote:
| You just rephrased what GP said, in a more snarky manner.
|
| The point is that countries have to keep their farms in
| working condition, whatever we make farmers do. And yes,
| biofuels are a way to achieve that, the alternative would
| be to farm too much mustard, which is not ideal either.
|
| And yes, as a side effect, a bad harvest in Canada _and_
| and a war in Ukraine can cause a temporary shortage of a
| non-essential food item. It sucks, but worse things
| happened in the last 2-3 years, including shortages, and
| it wasn 't about farming. And I say that as someone who
| is directly affected by the mustard shortage.
| jiggywiggy wrote:
| No, he was arguing they actually have a longterm view
| understanding the impact of their policy and having the
| illusion that they would be able to make the correct
| policy changes to influence farmers of switching back
| when needed.
|
| And there is lot of reason the be snarky about the EU, I
| mean the fact they keep moving every few months for
| hundreds of millions of dollars is extremely
| disrespectful to the European people. Let alone their
| disregard of national democracies.
| GekkePrutser wrote:
| So now the price will go up, and it'll be worthwhile growing
| mustard seeds again.
| roenxi wrote:
| Which is cool and all, but the side effect of this all is
| less people would be able to eat mustard. Prices going up is
| often inevitable but hardly a win.
|
| It'd be interesting to have an accounting of what end-of-the-
| day benefits people got for giving up their mustard.
| beowulfey wrote:
| It's mustard, and there are still other kinds. I'm
| personally not worried about it.
|
| I think we'll have a lot more of these sacrifices coming up
| in the next thirty years that will hurt a lot more. Coffee
| is the one that I'm most worried about.
| jfim wrote:
| The other kinds of mustard are not really substitutable.
| It's as if Coca Cola disappeared from store shelves in
| the US, and someone said it's fine because there's still
| Fanta and Sprite.
| JasonFruit wrote:
| I'm not really sure your analogy helps; in either case,
| there are people who would agree that it matters, and
| people who would be baffled that anyone could get wrought
| up over it.
| bobthepanda wrote:
| What makes the example unhelpful? Coca Cola and
| associated brands are probably one of, if not the most
| internationally prolific brands of consumer product in
| the world. I don't even drink much soda now and even I
| remember what they tasted like years ago, or at least the
| fact that they taste wildly different.
| hammock wrote:
| Replace Coke and Sprite with Trump and Biden. Now we're
| talking
| lotsofpulp wrote:
| The solution to the side effect of poor people having to
| consume less due to higher prices is always redistributing
| wealth so poorer people have more money to spend.
| Preventing price movements simply hampers the ability for
| market participants to allocate resources properly to meet
| the desires of the populace.
| celtain wrote:
| Well, that's part of the solution. The other part of the
| solution is on the supply side: finding ways to reduce
| prices through improved productivity, trade, removing
| unnecessary regulations, fostering competitive markets,
| etc.
| jaywalk wrote:
| Give poor people more money > prices go up > poor people
| can't afford stuff > give poor people more money > prices
| go up > ...
| mikepurvis wrote:
| In theory yes, and I think we probably see this effect
| with things like home-buyer credits, low interest rates,
| etc all contributing to pushing up the cost of houses.
|
| But has it been studied that this is actually how this
| plays out with a low-level consumer good like mustard?
| WalterBright wrote:
| You've just described college tuition!
| lotsofpulp wrote:
| No. College tuition is lend people unlimited amount of
| taxpayer's money with no underwriting -> colleges
| increase prices as much as possible without getting too
| much political blowback in the immediate term. And then
| taxpayers eat the loss via loan forgiveness or decreased
| purchasing power of the USD as interest rates and
| repayment terms are continuously relaxed.
| WalterBright wrote:
| Sounds the same to me.
| lotsofpulp wrote:
| Would you rather be given money or lent money?
|
| It would be a pretty big difference to me.
|
| Lending money today instead of giving money lets leaders
| and voters today to punt sacrifices to tomorrow's
| taxpayers, and of course inflates college tuition prices
| so the borrowers have reduced purchasing power, as well
| as future users of the currency.
|
| That is the whole reason lending for college tuition
| became a thing. Some genius figured out how to cut taxes
| today while still being able to say they are helping
| expand access to higher education to poor people and
| college students.
| lotsofpulp wrote:
| You missed the step where you take money from richer
| people, and then give that money to poorer people.
|
| Across all goods/services, that means richer people would
| be able to consume less, and poorer people would be able
| to consume more. Whether or not people sacrifice eating
| Dijon mustard is up to them.
|
| The goal is not to guarantee Dijon mustard for everyone,
| the goal is to mitigate how poor poorer people are.
|
| The other way to bring down Dijon mustard prices is for
| the government to increase supply of Dijon mustard, or
| remove whatever is restricting supply of Dijon mustard.
| mminer237 wrote:
| I feel like mustard should be such a small portion of a
| person's budget that the price could double without
| affecting his ability to purchase it.
| roenxi wrote:
| Then the price will more than double. If there was 100
| tonnes of mustard consumed last year and there is 90
| tonnes available this year, then the price rises until
| people stop buying about 10t of mustard.
| mminer237 wrote:
| Temporarily, yeah; but long-term, it's correct that this
| will incentivize more mustard growing.
| atwood22 wrote:
| Why is there an incentive to grow more mustard? Subsidies
| have shifted the supply curve for mustard. The
| opportunity costs of growing mustard have increased due
| to subsidies for other crops. Now less mustard is grown
| and a new equilibrium price is set. The old amount of
| mustard will never be grown due to the shift in the
| supply curve from subsidies of other crops.
| Dylan16807 wrote:
| The "more" was relative to 90 tonnes.
|
| You're correct that the new equilibrium would be below
| 100.
| [deleted]
| SllX wrote:
| It's a good food with good properties. As a stand-alone
| product it probably wouldn't matter but this is in the
| context of food prices already going up across the board
| and healthy food generally being closer to the premium end
| of the price scale.
| hammock wrote:
| If the price increase weren't due to a subsidy, that would be
| true. Instead, a subsidy creates a sustained shortage.
|
| Unless something else (not price action) increases the demand
| for mustard, its price will not move back to equilibrium.
| This concept is in Econ 101 (albeit one of the less intuitive
| concepts taught)
| Dylan16807 wrote:
| Well first off they didn't say the price will move back,
| they said the shortage will end. Now that it costs more,
| more supply can be obtained.
|
| But also it's likely that when the equilibrium point moved,
| farmers (or other parts of the supply chain) overshot it.
| That puts us in a price spike, so even if the new normal is
| higher than the old normal, if you check during a spike you
| should expect the price to go down.
| bell-cot wrote:
| Ah, no. You probably should talk to a real farmer about
| current crop prices vs. futures prices, the capital & other
| costs of trying to switch from growing Crop A to Crop B, lead
| times, inelastic demand, and how many farmers have been wiped
| out (bankruptcy & liquidation) due to a series of "it sounded
| good at the time" decisions.
| Dylan16807 wrote:
| They mean it in an average sense, not advice to particular
| farmers.
|
| It will make sense for some to switch, and some will.
| [deleted]
| bottled_poe wrote:
| Hmmm.. that's not how supply vs demand works though
| SimplyUnknown wrote:
| How so? Supply goes down while demand is the same --> Price
| goes up --> Profit margin for the farmer increases -->
| Profits of mustard > profits of rapeseed --> Farmer
| produces mustard instead of rapeseed. This is exactly the
| consequence of supply and demand.
|
| The only noteworthy fact is that we got in this situation
| because it was not a completely free market but a regulated
| market due to subsidies for rapeseed, artificially
| increasing their profit margin.
| viridian wrote:
| This is exactly how a price shift in the supply demand
| curve works in basic macroeconomics.
|
| If you price shift a good upwards and the demand remains
| static, yield per good increases and then supply should
| increase as suppliers willing to supply at the new price is
| greater than supplier willing to supply at the old price.
| finikytou wrote:
| it is bad. and french people never wanted that. but it seems to
| be for the greater good. also most of the commercial mustard
| brands buys seeds from china and brand it as french. hence why
| there is a shortage. commercial greed of companies that want to
| bank on the french branding while buying the product in cheaper
| labor cost regions.
| Yoric wrote:
| Pretty sure it's Canadian actually.
| gambiting wrote:
| Even the article mentions it.
|
| Edit: if this wasn't 100% crystal clear, judging by some
| replies - I mean "even the article mentions it [Canada
| being a source of mustard seeds]"
| PurpleRamen wrote:
| Not anymore? The article does not mention china at all.
| Maybe it was corrected in the meanwhile. As I'm reading
| it, Canada is named as the majority source for seeds.
| latch wrote:
| your parent means that even the article mentions Canada
| [so there's no need to just be 'pretty sure']
| seszett wrote:
| I don't even care much about mustard or live in France
| (though I am French) and I knew it just from reading
| French news months ago.
|
| But I've heard so much disinformation in the last weeks
| when I was back at home with my family, many aging people
| (not especially lacking education, and of various social
| status but just "normal" people) who seem to get most of
| their information from random posts on Facebook, that
| I've lost any remaining trust in democracy (or at least
| direct democracy as many people advocate today) as a
| viable system for the coming years.
|
| Democracy needs a well-informed population making
| informed decisions, but what I see is the total opposite.
| If these people (who make up the majority of the
| population in our aging society) were to take decisions
| themselves, we would likely ally with Russia to finish
| the war against the "maybe-not-as-bad-but-still-very-bad"
| Ukrainians to restore mustard production and make gas
| flow again since there is no exceptional drought or any
| climate change at all, since summer last year was not so
| warm. Or some other nonsense.
|
| Sorry for the rant, but my reflections were actually
| triggered by the comments I heard back then regarding the
| mustard shortage. I had never realised how misinformed
| people were.
| kergonath wrote:
| My impression as well. I am not too hopeful for the
| future.
| dorfsmay wrote:
| Direct democracy would allow to discuss and debate ideas
| for their own sake rather than choosing one of a very few
| camps. A person could be pro-guns and pro-vaccination
| without needing to identify with a party, their people,
| etc... Disinformation will still exist (see brexit!),it
| might even be worse, but people will be able to point to
| it without being called a plant for the other side.
|
| The problem with current systems, representative
| democracy, especially with non-proportional voting
| systems, is that getting elected becomes the only goal,
| and supporting extreme views is one of the strategy,
| which has been pushing parties, from all sides, towards
| extremes. There is a self-feeding vicious circle as soon
| as one party supports extreme views, it reinforces the
| opposite party support for the party over ideas, and that
| now affects the first party etc...
|
| Being informed is like driving, every single person
| thinks they are better informed than the average! If you
| don't believe in democracy, can you please tell us what
| system is better?
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illusory_superiority#Drivin
| g_a...
|
| Experiences with "sortition" has shown that a group of
| "average people" tend to make better decisions for the
| group then a few supposedly "elite".
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sortition
| talideon wrote:
| I think that the main benefit of sortition is that you
| end up with a set of people without any need to get re-
| elected, and that it's this that lends them the ability
| to make better decisions because their careers don't
| depend on it.
|
| Here in Ireland, we've had a number of Citizens' Assembly
| meetings going back just shy of a decade (if you include
| the 2012 Constitutional Convention, which was effectively
| the first one in all but name) that have been
| tremendously productive and have lead to a lot of
| positive change that would never have happened if it were
| left purely to professional politicians. You might find
| it worth a read: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citizens%2
| 7_Assembly_(Ireland)
| themadturk wrote:
| > If you don't believe in democracy, can you please tell
| us what system is better?
|
| Just because you don't believe in something doesn't mean
| there's a better alternative. It simply means there may
| not be an alternative to believe in.
| seszett wrote:
| > _If you don 't believe in democracy, can you please
| tell us what system is better?_
|
| None that I know of, _that_ is the real tragedy.
|
| On the illusion of superiority, I'm well aware of that
| but do not forget that it does not mean that some people
| are not _actually_ better or worse (at information,
| driving, cooking or anything) than the others.
|
| Some abilities can actually be evaluated, for example
| there _is_ such a thing as truth, so even though one
| person can be bad at evaluating themselves, it is
| absolutely possible to recognise misinformation in
| others.
| dorfsmay wrote:
| > it is absolutely possible to recognise misinformation
| in others.
|
| And this needs to be part of the education, part of the
| direct democracy.
|
| Keep in mind that in many situations there isn't a single
| truth, compromises need to be made, different
| implementations of a system that should work in theory
| needs to be tested etc... The belief in a single great
| system has lead to many bad societies.
| finikytou wrote:
| I guess you one of the well-informed french that would
| probably have called on chirac being a crazy man for not
| siding with usa when they went to bring "democracy" to
| irak against a bad dictator that had weapons that did not
| exist. because between above narrative and russian one
| that went there to "denazify" and fight a dictature of
| nazis there's not a big difference. every information is
| one-sided and no one can control it. it is easy to make
| fun of people that believe things on facebook. much
| harder to understand that you at your level are also one
| of them
| kergonath wrote:
| > I guess you one of the well-informed french that would
| probably have called on chirac being a crazy man for not
| siding with usa when they went to bring "democracy" to
| irak against a bad dictator that had weapons that did not
| exist
|
| This was actually probably Chirac's (and Villepin's)
| finest hour.
|
| It is also a non sequitur. Invading Iraq was (as was
| predicted back then) a catastrophe. We are still paying
| for it, even France, and will in the foreseeable future.
|
| Invading and annexing a peaceful, if corrupt,
| neighbouring country, however, is much worse. Genocide in
| Iraq was well documented and at least the point could be
| made. There is nothing remotely similar in Ukraine, even
| ignoring both bits of disinformation (WMDs in Iraq and
| Nazis in Ukraine).
| suoduandao2 wrote:
| I think the point GP was trying to make is, the 'good old
| days' when there was no misinformation was when it was
| still possible to manufacture consent without your rivals
| interfering. The current wave of competing worldviews
| is... one could say difficult to assimilate... but if
| people evolve better bullshit filters as a result, we'll
| probably be better off than when we were being fed
| smaller amounts of bullshit from only one entity at a
| time.
|
| Which doesn't help your family and their weak bullshit
| filters, of course, and my condolances for their
| situation - if I knew how to speed up developing such a
| filter, I'd share it.
|
| Edit: Didn't realise GP wasn't addressing you, my comment
| on your family was meant for someone else - how easy it
| is to be confused by online discussion even without bad
| intentions.
| gambiting wrote:
| >>I guess you one of the well-informed french that would
| probably have called on chirac being a crazy man for not
| siding with usa when they went to bring "democracy" to
| irak against a bad dictator that had weapons that did not
| exist.
|
| I'm not french, I have no idea who "chirac" is, and in
| general I think you maybe replied to the wrong comment?
| finikytou wrote:
| sorry my reply got wrongly placed I was talking to
| seszett
| ztrww wrote:
| While I don't want to justify the invasion (or rather the
| motivation behind it and it's actual execution), Sadam's
| regime was OBJECTIVELY worse than the Ukrainian
| government. They are not even on the same level, the
| Ukrainian government may be thoroughly corrupt but they
| did not murder hundreds of thousands of their own people
| (using both conventional and chemical weapons).
|
| The real crime was propping up Sadam in the 80's when US
| did not see him as a threat and living him alive in 1991
| (which just prove that US had zero actual concerns about
| the wellbeing and freedom of the people of Iraq in 2003)
| throwaway_4ever wrote:
| > living him alive in 1991
|
| what?
|
| 1991 was the same decision to make as 2003, except they
| chose restraint. When they flipped in 2003, almost
| everyone universally agrees, including you
|
| > the US war in Iraq was unjustified
|
| it was a _bad decision_ , thus 1991 was the right move.
| sudosysgen wrote:
| It doesn't matter though. Both invasions were based on
| very similar lies. Just because in Iraq the lies were 10%
| true and in Ukraine 3% true doesn't make any difference.
|
| The invasion itself was a far far worse crime that
| supporting Saddam materially.
| nebulousthree wrote:
| Team America: World Police
| seszett wrote:
| Since you were intending to reply to me, I'll try to
| answer you here.
|
| I'm really not sure I actually understood what you meant,
| though. In my opinion, the US war in Iraq was unjustified
| and the Russian war in Ukraine is unjustified as well,
| and indeed between the US narrative back then and the
| Russian one today, there is no big difference.
|
| But the main take I get from our conversation is that you
| were the one that was initially misinformed (thinking
| French mustard mainly comes from China), didn't read or
| believe the linked article by a "respectable" established
| news outlet (that clearly says the mustard in question
| comes from Canada), then spread your wrong information
| (in your comment) and now you're trying to say that I'm
| as misinformed as anyone when you are factually,
| indisputably, the one person who is misinformed in this
| particular discussion.
|
| I do believe I am more effective at checking the accuracy
| of the the information I read or hear about than other
| people. I do not think that everyone is equally as
| misinformed, far from it.
| throwaway_4ever wrote:
| > between the US narrative back then and the Russian one
| today, there is no big difference.
|
| The US war in Iraq can be unjustified, while the US'
| intention against an actually terrible Saddam regime
| being benevolent, while Russia's is actually selfish
| territorial control and Donbas resources. Equating the
| Saddam regime to Zelenskyy's Ukraine is egregious.
| yakubin wrote:
| _> but it seems to be for the greater good._
|
| Exporting blame abroad is for the greater good?
| finikytou wrote:
| im blaming the companies not the abroad. you brand ur
| product as french and you use ur raw material from some
| foreign country while calling it from the region in france
| it originates. that is a scam. and that is the reason why
| we have a shortage because producing abroad makes CEO and
| shareholders richer and made france stop producing enough.
| canada for mustard seeds china for pickles (sorry for the
| mistake) it is same.
| yakubin wrote:
| Makes sense. So if somehow the companies were somehow
| forced to brand their products accurately, the problem
| would have a chance of getting solved thanks to
| customers.
| finikytou wrote:
| we do have in france a system called AOP that controls
| the origin. but it does not force people to brand "DIJON"
| mustard as coming from dijon.
|
| For instance champagne can only come from the champagne
| region.
| insane_dreamer wrote:
| This is the news I come to HN for
| haunter wrote:
| There is a shortage of Huy Fong Foods Sriracha too
| https://www.npr.org/2022/06/17/1105477224/sriracha-shortage-...
|
| I can see "non essential" food products like these will be
| effected more and more in the future
| not_the_fda wrote:
| Dusseldorf mustard is better anyhow.
| xyzzy_plugh wrote:
| I came here to post this. Dijon is so uninteresting.
| zerohalo wrote:
| next you'll be saying emacs is better than vim
| pvaldes wrote:
| Time to jump to horseradish.
| Yoric wrote:
| Unfortunately, we're still pretty far from horseradish season.
| At least in Europe, it's a winter crop. But yeah, I've been
| waiting for horseradish for a few months already.
| donarb wrote:
| Or horseradish mustard, pretty good stuff.
| amelius wrote:
| (aka Wasabi)
| Findecanor wrote:
| Wasabi and horseradish are different plants. They taste
| similar enough though that horseradish with green food-
| colouring is often used as wasabi, and that real wasabi is
| often diluted with horseradish -- even in Japan.
|
| Real wasabi is more expensive partly because it is more
| difficult to cultivate (in stream beds vs. soil) and partly
| because growers keep supply low to hike up the price.
| xyzzy_plugh wrote:
| It's ludicrously expensive too. A little bit of whole
| wasabi lasts me a long time as wasabi paste is sort of
| "foamed up" and I find the volume increases. It would be so
| worth it if I could cultivate even a single plant myself.
|
| If you can't tell the difference, consider yourself lucky.
| I probably spend a few hundred dollars a year on wasabi and
| use it quite rarely.
| anonymous_sorry wrote:
| Real wasabi isn't horseradish. But a lot of "wasabi"
| flavouring you get in the west is horseradish with green
| colouring.
| [deleted]
| Biganon wrote:
| No shortage at all here in Switzerland, 60 km away from France. I
| don't get it.
| bambax wrote:
| Ironically and paradoxically, Dijon mustard can be found in
| neighboring countries, because non-French people don't eat as
| much of the stuff. In France the minute any inventory shows up
| anywhere it's immediately depleted, whereas in other countries
| it can remain on shelves for weeks.
|
| Changing the allotment between France and other countries for
| exporting firms takes time, and so it does happen that more
| mustard is sent to countries that don't much care for it, while
| the French are deprived of it.
| ChuckNorris89 wrote:
| But at what price? ;)
|
| Maybe it's more lucrative for French companies to sell it for
| 2x to the Swiss instead of locally.
| withinboredom wrote:
| If you read the article, you'd know that the mustard doesn't
| come from France. It comes from Canada.
| [deleted]
| ectopod wrote:
| No, the seeds are mostly grown in Canada but the product is
| manufactured in France.
| Fiahil wrote:
| I live in France and we ran out of Mustard when the shortage came
| out. We don't eat that much, but it has been quite annoying.
| Especially with the barbecue season.
|
| I suspect close relatives to hoard and run a "black market"
| mustard network. They got at least 3 sort of mustard last time we
| went to see them for dinner. I'm definitely jealous!
| badpun wrote:
| 20 years from now - French response to Bourne's Identity
| series, but about a deep state mustard-hoarding conspiracy.
| cwillu wrote:
| France should learn from Canada and its strategic maple syrup
| reserve.
| prvit wrote:
| The real mustard disaster is just how hard it has become to get
| good Russian/Ukrainian mustard, Dijon simply doesn't cut it.
| noarchy wrote:
| Taking the gatekeeping to the next level, I see.
| yakubin wrote:
| What particular mustard do you have in mind? The
| Russian/Ukrainian mustards I've tried couldn't hold a candle to
| Dijon. Too tame.
| prvit wrote:
| Too tame? That's odd, generally Russians make a far more
| intense style of Mustard than Dijon.
|
| Zakuson is a quite good Russian style mustard, widely
| available because it's made in Canada.
| yakubin wrote:
| No such mustard where I live. Tomorrow I'm going to a BBQ
| though, so I'm going to buy a whole set of mustards and let
| the best one win. I'll remember to get some Russian ones.
| AzzieElbab wrote:
| Meanwhile, here in Canada I worry about Sriracha shortages
| https://www.cbc.ca/news/science/sriracha-hot-sauce-shortage-...
| sharmin123 wrote:
| cm42 wrote:
| Excuse me, sir, do you have any Grey Poupon? The answer to this
| timeless question, experts say, is increasingly "no".
|
| It all started in Dijon, the capital of Burgundy, in the spring
| of 1634, when, as luck (or Providence) would have it, ...
| matthiaswh wrote:
| I guess you could say they don't have any Grey Poupon.
|
| Pardon me.
| bionsystem wrote:
| I ordered some to offer as a fun gift to my family on my
| holidays next week. Hopefully it's not bad (never tried it so I
| don't know the taste, plus it took a couple month to arrive I
| hope it didn't go bad somehow).
| [deleted]
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