[HN Gopher] Hacking the Hedonic Treadmill
___________________________________________________________________
Hacking the Hedonic Treadmill
Author : highfrequency
Score : 211 points
Date : 2022-08-10 17:12 UTC (2 days ago)
(HTM) web link (experimentalhistory.substack.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (experimentalhistory.substack.com)
| trellad wrote:
| Anna Lembke's "Dopamine Nation" has a lot of interesting takes on
| the subject. One takeaway I got is that dopamine seeks a balance.
| Opting for pleasure seeking often ends up getting experienced as
| pain. An example of that is drug tolerance. Oddly, the reverse is
| also true: seeking pain can often lead to an experience of
| pleasure. The invigorated feeling after a cold shower, or how
| hard exercise leads to highs.
|
| She is a great podcast guest, too. Her approach - that the people
| with the strongest addictions can tell us a lot about how we seek
| pleasure - has a lot of depth to it.
| isolli wrote:
| A book developing similar ideas: The Hacking of the American
| Mind.
|
| https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/34237719-the-hacking-of-...
| andrei_says_ wrote:
| Any interviews or talks you can recommend where she covers the
| important points of her work?
| luismmolina wrote:
| The podcast of Joe Rogan, episode #1708. Interesting
| interview, he finds some holes in her theory that she is not
| able to answer or can't explain. I was very excited with the
| book before listening, but after it I was kind of
| disappointed with the book.
| andrei_says_ wrote:
| Thank you - I've noticed that a lot of US pop-sci books
| have a significant amount of filler.
|
| What caused your disappointment?
| lee wrote:
| Dr. Huberman had her on his podcast. She dives into a lot of
| her work.
|
| https://hubermanlab.com/dr-anna-lembke-understanding-and-
| tre...
| trellad wrote:
| Yeah, this one was the one that made me buy her book.
| Huberman is a little much for me, but he does a great
| interview with her. He leaves a huge topic out -- wanted to
| examine his own workaholism -- but she's terrific.
| chownie wrote:
| Are exercise highs real? Do all people experience them or is it
| a genetic niche?
|
| I've tried a bunch of different exercise methods. Gone running,
| swimming, weightlifting etc and I've never experienced anything
| close to a high afterward. I'll be tired, sometimes I'll feel
| proud of breaking a personal record but there's never any
| physical positive sensation or euphoria to me that would
| resemble the "runners high" that people often refer to. I think
| I'd exercise much more consistently if there were any
| biological feedback mechanism to make me want to rather than
| doing it the way I do, like it's a chore.
|
| The closest thing I can compare would get the transformation of
| anxiety into excitement from getting a piercing but even that's
| super short lasting, maybe five to fifteen minutes of shaky
| internal excitement followed by a quick regression to baseline.
| sophacles wrote:
| The exercise high is subtle, it's not a high like smoking a
| bunch of pot or getting drunk, rather it's a pleasant
| feeling. The first time i really understood it was: I had
| been doing regular running + weights for several months. Then
| for the holidays I was travelling and visiting people and
| didn't have a chance to exercise. After a few days I just
| felt this building of energy that had nowhere to go - my body
| had become used to regular exercise. About 10 days after my
| last real workout and 4 days since any activity involving
| physical exertion my plane landed and I checked into a hotel
| that had a gym. I dumped my bags and went to the gym and got
| on a treadmill thinking "finally i can burn off some of this
| energy and anxiety from it".
|
| On that run as I warmed up I felt a giant release. And I felt
| happy... no giddy. And it was good. A few miles later I felt
| peace and then ran some more til I felt tired.
|
| It's different than just putting some stuff in your nose and
| feeling good or popping a pill and seeing bright colors.
|
| That's the most intense I ever felt it, but it was a good
| experience because it also helped me understand what it was,
| and I notice it often now - not every time I work out, but
| often - its there under the tired, post work-out let-down as
| sort of a "glow".
| Filligree wrote:
| > Are exercise highs real? Do all people experience them or
| is it a genetic niche?
|
| They're real, but (probably, usually) not literal. Exercise
| just leaves me feeling good, all over. If you've had the
| feeling, you'll know what I mean.
|
| Some people don't seem to get it at all. And some probably do
| experience a literal high; if the dial can be dialed all the
| way down, I'm sure it can go to 11 as well. It's unfortunate
| if you're in the first group, of course.
|
| I don't get it very strongly myself, but I compensate by
| making the exercise itself enjoyable. Swimming is _boring_.
| Spend a few hours hiking across a mountain ridge -- that 's
| anything but boring. Still tiring, but the views are worth
| it, and it's a great place for lunch.
| tepitoperrito wrote:
| If they are, in my experience they seem to be mediated by the
| endocannabinoid system and not primarily opiod release due to
| trauma and adrenaline.
|
| The only times I've felt it were on the tail end of cross
| country meets (a 5k race pace) and it was quite nice. Kind of
| an electric Bliss in your whole body. Borderline arousing at
| the risk of oversharing lol.
| thenerdhead wrote:
| I never experienced a runner's high or a basketball "lock in"
| until I did it enough.
|
| I had to build the endurance to go over 6 miles without
| stopping to experience my first runner's high.
|
| I had to last a whole half in a basketball league to
| experience being in the zone.
|
| It took me a couple years to even get the feeling, but now
| that I've experienced it, I can't stop doing it. I think
| there's a personalized threshold for everyone, but for me, it
| was pushing myself quite far beyond my limits.
| RajT88 wrote:
| > Are exercise highs real? Do all people experience them or
| is it a genetic niche?
|
| I've known many people who have experienced Runner's High. I
| am not one of them, despite having run probably close to 10k
| miles in my life. Marathons, Ragnar ultras, stuff like that.
|
| Might be genetic, or I might be doing it wrong. FWIW, I've
| also never hit "The Wall".
| 14 wrote:
| I've not experienced what I would call a high but after a
| good workout and feeling the muscle pump as they call it felt
| awesome. Your muscles bulge so hard it's just a great
| feeling. But I never though of it as a high.
| BrainsPachanga wrote:
| I don't exercise a lot but when I play tennis and I am happen
| to be pushing to my limits (2 hrs, no breaks almost), there
| is a point when I get a sudden rush of pleasure for about a
| minute when I get a lot of goosebumps. Afterwards, I am in
| such a good mood and feel like I can push for a little bit
| more before being totally done. I am not sure if something
| like this is what people refer to as exercise highs?
| vorpalhex wrote:
| I did not experience a runners high until I was running 5k+.
|
| I do experience a workout high from lifting pretty regulary,
| unless it's a low weight week.
| SketchySeaBeast wrote:
| I swear it must be a unique to the individual. I've been
| running for a few years now and have completed a few half
| marathons (still working to get to the full) and I have never
| once felt any sort of "high".
| chrisfosterelli wrote:
| I do a lot of running and a few times a year in my training
| there's a run where everything just lines up perfectly. I'll
| be well rested, focused, got some pretty scenery to look at,
| and moving fast with what feels like pretty low relative
| effort. Those moments definitely capture a lot of the joy of
| running for me, but if I was doing all my training just to
| chase them it probably wouldn't be worth it. A lot of the
| time it's in races but not always.
|
| Separately, I usually feel pretty good after a run too. Some
| workouts I feel absolutely wrecked after, but most workouts,
| once you have a good fitness base, you feel pretty good
| after.
|
| I'm not sure which of those, if either, are a 'runners high',
| but most runners I know have moments more like those than
| like an actual high.
| mantas wrote:
| Runners high is definitely real. But it takes prolonged
| effort. For me, 1h of steady non-stop running or 3h of no-
| rests cycling is bare minimum. 2x that for the true high
| dgs_sgd wrote:
| From personal experience I believe the "runner's high" is
| very real. It didn't happen often, but sometimes 40-60
| minutes in to a long run I would enter a state of flow and
| euphoria. It felt like I was effortlessly gliding across the
| ground and would last for as long as I kept running and a
| short time afterward.
| tdumitrescu wrote:
| I've been exercising quite regularly for decades, including a
| good amount of running alongside weights and other resistance
| and cardio. I love it, and hope I don't ever have to stop,
| but I've never experienced any sort of "runner's high" or big
| reaction to exercise, even after very hard or long workouts.
| mewse-hn wrote:
| > Are exercise highs real? Do all people experience them or
| is it a genetic niche?
|
| I think peoples descriptions of exercise highs are overblown
| in general. When I was training hard I'd feel pleasantly worn
| out afterwards and would certainly agree that I got the
| endorphins flowing.
| layla5alive wrote:
| People are actually different. Just because you don't
| experience the actual euphoria I do doesn't lead me to
| assume you're making it up that you don't. Those of us
| describing it that way aren't exaggerating.
| RandomLensman wrote:
| Not directly on the treadmill, but removing things that regularly
| create unhappiness really creates lasting uplift. There is no
| adjustment that brings back proper misery again.
| akimball wrote:
| Subtitle: The case for wire-heading.
| b3lvedere wrote:
| "Commercial breaks--people actually enjoy TV more with
| commercials". Maybe most people, but i hate forced commercials. I
| rather pause the video, do something else for a while and resume
| the video.
|
| "Setpiece escape room experiences, like climbing into a coffin "
| I have been in a real coffin a few hours once for a halloween
| fright night. Pretty comfy things. Felt quite relaxed.
| Jensson wrote:
| I think those things are like eating your fill on sugar, it is
| maybe a bit tasty to eat but you feel awful afterwards. Some
| people just doesn't connect the eating to the awful feeling so
| they continue consuming even though its just crap. And I bet
| there are plenty of studies showing that people actually eat
| more and like the food better when you add sugar in it.
| antman wrote:
| I clicked the link, took the first name in the publication,
| looked him up and is a professor in business and marketing.
|
| The things a professor of marketing needs to publish to thrive
| professionally these days seems to have become surreal.
| xelxebar wrote:
| > Maybe most people, but i...
|
| You are Most People:
|
| > Though people say they prefer to watch television without
| ads, they sometimes enjoy programs that have commercial
| interruptions more.
|
| The surprising claim isn't that most people say they enjoy
| commercials, it's that TV programs with commercial
| interruptions tend to correlate with people reporting higher
| enjoyment of the TV program _despite claiming that the would
| prefer less commercials_.
| detaro wrote:
| Of course, TV programs with higher enjoyment are also the
| ones that selling ads on is more profitable, and thus are the
| ones with frequent-ish commercial breaks?
| staticman2 wrote:
| "TV programs with commercial interruptions tend to correlate
| with people reporting higher enjoyment of the TV program"
|
| ... when watching an arbitrary TV show picked by the person
| doing the study.
|
| If you want to start assuming that a TV show you've chosen to
| watch will be more enjoyable with commercials go ahead, but
| that wasn't the way the study was done.
| b3lvedere wrote:
| I can understand that process. Still i like personal control
| of my breaks :)
| mattgreenrocks wrote:
| The ultimate hack is weaning yourself off the pull of the hedonic
| treadmill itself. And the best way I've found for that is to
| optimize for meaning. Of course, meaning is a difficult goal that
| is individual and prone to change.
|
| However, it is also a lot more robust than the desires generated
| by the treadmill. Another way to think about it is learning to
| practice being content where you are (however imperfect) and
| sinking your attention into things that engage you and leave you
| feeling energized.
|
| The treadmill will always be in the back of your mind, but it
| isn't fit to drive.
| adamsmith143 wrote:
| But a Red Ferrari 488 gives me lots of meaning...
| rfergie wrote:
| Don't you just end up on a "meaning treadmill" instead?
| mattgreenrocks wrote:
| IME, meaning is far more satiating than happiness simply
| because it is able to offset more BS than being happy will.
|
| More to your question: what happens is your tolerance for
| meaninglessness decreases, which has good and bad side
| effects.
| slfnflctd wrote:
| > your tolerance for meaninglessness decreases
|
| I think part of what keeps me locked on to the hedonistic
| treadmill is that a lot of other people (including my
| partner) don't like who I am when I'm trying to stay off
| it. I tend to get more intense about a lot of things most
| folks don't care about.
|
| It's funny, out of my whole family & friend circle I'm
| probably doing the most damage to myself via self
| medication, but when I try to get _serious_ about things
| that _matter_ and take a break from intoxicants, I end up
| doing just as much damage or more by putting my
| relationships through pointless trials of fire.
|
| But I know what you mean about meaning. When it's good,
| it's _really_ good and worth every bit of seeking.
|
| It's unfortunate there are so many pitfalls to dodge for so
| many of us.
| mattgreenrocks wrote:
| Yeah, I feel this, and, it hurts. A lot.
|
| Others in your life may say they support your emphasis on
| spiritual growth, but what if that entails being passed
| up for a promotion, and, ergo, a raise? Most families
| would appreciate an extra $1k a month. Not every
| situation is either-or, but you _quickly_ get a sense for
| what pragmatism means to people.
|
| Often, it means comfort.
|
| I hope you find the courage to continue to pursue
| meaning. It is good, as you say. Me, I made a bit of a
| deal with myself to make it a very high priority in my
| life when it is lacking. When necessary, meaning goes
| into the non-negotiable bucket.
| cantSpellSober wrote:
| If you get degenerative chronic illness are you eventually just
| as happy as you were before it? No, we figured this out in the
| 70s.
|
| Why is "Hedonic Treadmill" forced into blogspam titles like
| these? Was there a TED Talk recently?
|
| > _Variators_ are little modulations that keep experiences fresh
|
| So... _variety_? Mind blown.
| niek_pas wrote:
| > If you get degenerative chronic illness are you eventually
| just as happy as you were before it? No, we figured this out in
| the 70s.
|
| No, but that's also not what the HT hypothesis says. The
| treadmill pushes you back, not forward.
| cantSpellSober wrote:
| False, it's a tendency to return to a stable level of
| happiness despite positive _or negative_ events. This doesn
| 't happen if you get degenerative chronic illness (and it was
| debunked 50 years ago).
| bndr wrote:
| Shameless plug, I wrote an article recently on how the hedonic
| treadmill affects development culture [1].
|
| In my opinion, good approach to avoiding the hedonic treadmill is
| to think in "processes" rather than "goals." If you achieve some
| goal, you get back to the equilibrium and get used to it. But if
| you're on a journey, there's nothing to adapt to as every day is
| a journey and brings something new. So it's like smaller pendulum
| swings every day instead of big ones every few months.
|
| Nonetheless, I like the ideas proposed in this article and think
| they also are quite effective.
|
| [1] https://vadimkravcenko.com/shorts/hedonic-treadmill/
| laserlight wrote:
| The idea of hacking the hedonic treadmill misses one important
| point: the mind adapts to these hacks as well. And now you are
| looking for more hacks.
| Applejinx wrote:
| Or you can just settle for being sad and frustrated knowing
| that there will come another day and it'll be better.
|
| Guess that's stepping off the treadmill. I'm interested in
| stoic philosophy as opposed to epicurian philosophy, so all
| this talk of the hedonic treadmill seems super weird to me.
|
| :)
| Mikejames wrote:
| exactly, more more more!
| alach11 wrote:
| Maybe to break the treadmill we need to subject ourselves to
| torture once per month to reset our baseline?
| nextos wrote:
| Relatively, right? It's like adding tons of variation and
| cycles in training (i.e. periodization). Done correctly, you
| can keep improving season after season.
| laserlight wrote:
| Yes. On the one hand the analogy is useful. Just like how
| physical training makes one physically fit, hedonic hacks
| might make one hedonically fit. On the other hand, while
| people might understand and accept that there are genetic
| limits that they cannot pass beyond, it's never the case for
| hedonic pleasure. Hedonic adaptation drives one to always
| look for more.
| p1esk wrote:
| Pretty sure I'd be happier if I didn't have to work for a living.
| gtirloni wrote:
| I really like to work and the area I've chosen. What makes it
| annoying is that I have to work on what upper management thinks
| is important at any given time. They want me to design a high
| level software architecture now but I want to code. Next week
| they want me to code but I want to design. It very rarely
| aligns. If ever. That annoys me and probably causes management
| a great deal of anxiety when I go off path. It feels so
| childish of me. I'm looking for soutions to hack this situation
| like the hedonic threadmill, in case anyone has suggestions.
| danielheath wrote:
| It sounds like you don't have the autonomy you think you
| should - which often comes from the responsibilities being
| misaligned (presumably management are responsible for some
| delivery dates which leads them to feel they should be
| telling you what to work on).
| ricardobayes wrote:
| Start a startup company
| mxuribe wrote:
| > I really like to work and the area I've chosen. What makes
| it annoying is that I have to work on what upper management
| thinks is important at any given time... ...That annoys me
| and probably causes management a great deal of anxiety when I
| go off path. It feels so childish of me..."
|
| OMG, for a moment there i thought you were reading my mind!
| I've struggled professionally the last few years on this very
| topic. The only partial solution that i can think of - so far
| only as an experiment - is to minimize my cost of living,
| start to slowly partially retire, and move towards being a
| contract coder - either for corporate gigs or as a sub-
| contractor for other dev contractors. I figure being a coder
| (and likely lower level coder, not being like an engineering
| manager or anything like that anymore), might also allow me
| the freedom to work remotely, meaning that i can travel a
| slight bit more. And working in this fashion might give me
| the freedom to move onto another project/contract if/when i
| get bored of a particular project and/or client. Its an
| experiment to be sure...but frankly, that's the only thing
| that i can think of that might help me. I hope this helps!
| Happy to discuss more if you have private feedback. (My email
| is in my profile.)
|
| EDIT: I failed to add that one element that is somewhat
| holding me back from fully diving into this mode of working
| right now is (what i feel is) one of the biggest hurdles to
| entrepreneurial freedom in America: being able to reasonably
| afford good, solid healthcare. (This is not meant to be
| political, just adding it in as another cost of living....and
| for myself, its not a trivial cost.)
| nonrandomstring wrote:
| > It feels so childish of me.
|
| It is. "Capitalism is for children" said Adam Phillips [1]
|
| You cannot be a fully fledged adult, a self-determined being,
| under conditions of wage slavery.
|
| Education is set up not to allow graceful separation into
| adulthood, as most cultures have historically done, but to
| transfer dependency to a new set of masters.
|
| Late capitalism in particular, with its intrusive lack of
| boundaries, neurotic management, measurement, bureaucracy and
| surveillance, or any similar state-controlled apparatus such
| as in China, is, as that line in "The Matrix" goes - a prison
| for your mind.
|
| Philosophers criticised the Church (Father, Son, Holy Spirit)
| as "patently infantile family values" to keep people in
| subjugation. We have largely overthrown that aspect of
| patriarchal religion only to replace it with a Corporate
| equivalent.
|
| > I'm looking for solutions to hack this
|
| How did occidental culture dethrone the Church?
|
| It didn't happen in one day, when everyone decided to live a
| secular life. For centuries individuals stood up, called
| themselves "atheists" and refused to join in the rituals.
| They were punished and suffered pain and ostracism.
|
| The problem is, for the aspiring Hedonist, entering into a
| world of pain to champion a _principle_ that people should
| have pleasurable lives, won 't fly for any but the most
| unselfish and far sighted.
|
| [1]
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adam_Phillips_(psychologist)
| badpun wrote:
| > Education is set up not to allow graceful separation into
| adulthood, as most cultures have historically done, but to
| transfer dependency to a new set of masters.
|
| Most cultures historically didn't have any education (as we
| understand it now), with some rare exceptions (wealthy
| people hiring tutors for their children). Children just
| started working very early and learned via observation and
| on-the-job training.
| nonrandomstring wrote:
| > Most cultures historically didn't have any education
|
| I'd say that's untrue.
|
| What I am particularly thinking about is rites of passage
| in primitive cultures. Education may have been as simple
| as learning to hunt, light a fire, fight, play with
| children, and cook food - but there were teachings and
| tests the tribe provided.
|
| > (as we understand it now)
|
| My point would not be that that's trivially true (nothing
| is as we understand it now if history implies progress),
| but that _education as we understand it today_ is
| precisely the functional slight of hand I describe. A
| study of Mann, Dewey and the Prussian system introduced
| in North America will bear that out.
|
| Of course, for the fully self-actualised person of good
| social conscience, learning does not have to align with
| the formula of state school and higher education. People
| with the courage to follow different paths are rare, or
| they have unusual parents who push them down that route
| (home-schooling, Steiner/Waldorf etc).
| chucktingle wrote:
| Then don't. Consider alternatives, set goals, and go for it.
| b3lvedere wrote:
| I've found out i'm a lot happier if i don't have to do
| overtime. Get out of the building at 5 and stop all work
| related things until the next working day. Sadly there are days
| i don't succeed in that, but the days it does make me happier
| and more relaxed.
| p1esk wrote:
| I work from home, ~20 hours a week on average, though I never
| tried to contain my work activities to a certain time window,
| e.g. yesterday I worked 1-4pm with breaks, and then 10pm-
| midnight. Honestly I can't even imagine having to haul my ass
| to a "building" every day and spend all day there, that
| sounds like a pretty bad life - though I used to do that many
| years ago.
| mettamage wrote:
| I don't think I'd be much happier. I work 4 days per week. I
| need it in order to keep exercising my logical side, because I
| exercise it a lot less in my personal life.
| badpun wrote:
| Those Civ5/Civ6 custom maps won't beat themselves... IOW,
| there's plenty other activities that heavily involve logical
| side which are not paid coding work.
| mettamage wrote:
| Of course there are plenty of other activities, but I get
| paid to do this and I like the ability to actually build
| something. Civ5/Civ6 feels meaningless in comparison. What
| have I actually effected in the world? Nothing
| DAVer98 wrote:
| What you need is semen retention to get back your child
| hood. Nothing feels meaningless on a long streak.
| quickthrower2 wrote:
| I recommend doing a hardcore survival course. You'll come back
| knowing 1. you don't need a job (you do need an occupation...)
| and 2. why you appreciate modern life, while at the same time
| why modern life is a bit sad, taking us away from our true
| habitat.
| [deleted]
| meken wrote:
| What are some examples of occupation you have in mind?
| p1esk wrote:
| Interesting. Can you please explain why you believe 1. is
| true? I know I'm not going to die if I stop working - I'd
| just become poor, and therefore less happy. If you're
| suggesting a life of a farmer, then how is it different from
| having to work?
| shaftoe wrote:
| Can you recommend any specific hardcore survival courses for
| people not in military or similar roles?
| [deleted]
| andybak wrote:
| > flight of beer
|
| First time I've ever heard it called that - and I've had several.
| spread_love wrote:
| Wine flights, cheese flights, I see it lots of places. I had a
| "bacon flight" once, it might be getting overused.
| gundmc wrote:
| Pretty standard across the US for 3-6 small sized tasters from
| my experience.
| andybak wrote:
| I'm in the UK.
| euroderf wrote:
| Obvious question: So what is a tasting line-up called in
| the UK ?
| andybak wrote:
| I'm not entirely sure. I might have to do some
| research...
| harvie wrote:
| But you have to drink fast, otherwise the last beer gets warm
| and looses foam before you drink the other beers. Beer without
| foam (or worse, the warm beer) might be acceptable in some
| countries, but it's just not what we do here in Czech republic.
| binbag wrote:
| Coder philosophy drivel has truly ascended to the level of high
| art.
| benj111 wrote:
| 'coder philosophy'?
|
| It's just awareness of yourself. If you know that if you have
| one glass of wine, that leads to a 3 day bender, then you can
| do something to stop the cycle. If you mindlessly consume to be
| happier, this is a tool to stop the cycle.
| Ygg2 wrote:
| https://youtu.be/_o7qjN3KF8U
| binbag wrote:
| Haha, exactly
| apostate wrote:
| The author has a PhD in psychology, fwiw.
| binbag wrote:
| Great, I've got one of those too. It doesn't mean you can't
| bullshit.
| apostate wrote:
| I wasn't making a value judgement on the piece (or the
| author's credentials). My point was that someone took the
| time to share something with the world and you dismissed it
| after making (incorrect) assumptions about their
| background. You'll miss out on a lot of good stuff if
| you've already cast judgement before you finish reading the
| title.
|
| In any case, it's a <3min read and it _does_ offer a few
| non-BS pieces of advice that may be useful to some.
| adamsmith143 wrote:
| Of all the appeals to authority, this has to be among the
| weakest.
| apostate wrote:
| I was not highlighting the author's background to appeal to
| authority. I was pointing out that what OP dismissed as
| "coder philosophy drivel" (likely from skimming the title
| and nothing else) was written by someone who has nothing to
| do with that field.
|
| In fact, by doing that, OP made an anti-appeal-to-
| authority. You seem to be interested in logical fallacies..
| could you help me out and tell me if that one has a
| specific name?
| adamsmith143 wrote:
| So we can replace "coder philosophy drivel" with
| "psychologist philosophy drivel". Doesn't seem to change
| much.
| apostate wrote:
| Sure, you seem intent on making a point that has nothing
| to do with OP's assertion or my observation, so go for
| it. (That's a strawman fallacy, right?)
| Ygg2 wrote:
| So? It's not a field known for solid, repeatable science.
|
| Nor does it stop author from believing his own lies.
| apostate wrote:
| Wasn't my point at all, see my other responses.
| [deleted]
| shepherdjerred wrote:
| > That afternoon when someone is staying with you and they go see
| another friend who lives in the same city and you go to work or
| stay home and do laundry or whatever
|
| Great article, but this is a ridiculously hard to parse sentence
| with the number of `ands` and `ors`.
| darod wrote:
| "Commercial breaks--people actually enjoy TV more with
| commercials." I've never enjoyed being disrupted by commercials
| nor has anyone else. This is why Tivo became so popular
| sbmthakur wrote:
| A side-effect of commercial breaks is interrupting viewer's
| eye-contact. In case of longer breaks people often walk around
| for a couple of minutes.
| jimbob45 wrote:
| A lot of shows are/were designed with commercials in mind. For
| example, the villain will shoot at the protagonist without
| showing whether or not the shots hit until after the commercial
| break. That extended suspense has been more or less lost in the
| age of Netflix (unless shows design for that suspense in
| another way).
| kshacker wrote:
| As I have gotten older, and as I am watching more serialized TV
| (and sometimes news), I find it helps to get a break once in a
| while. Mental or watch based breaks are one thing but I find
| myself ignoring them. Commercial breaks that I do not control
| are definitely helpful. Now I do not want 38 minutes of TV and
| 22 minutes of commercial, but I would definitely welcome fixed
| 2 minutes breaks every 20 minutes or so. I may still skip
| through them, but there may be times when I just let it run
| while I walk around or check messages - we can talk all we want
| about device addiction but if I know I will get a break, I am
| less tempted (and maybe less addicted) to check messages by
| pausing the show.
| abawany wrote:
| Agree - at best one gets used to commercials, like dirt in the
| house until the vacuuming can happen, but one never enjoys
| them. I didn't realize how much I hated ads until I tried
| Netflix a few years ago - I've never been able to watch
| tv/cable/ad-supported "free" content since then.
| rconti wrote:
| Not exactly the same, but I often watch TiVo'd or otherwise-
| DVR'd content; I might start 30 minutes 'behind' on a 3 hour
| event and have a very, very hard time 'catching up' to live --
| I pause for my bathroom breaks and grabbing food or drink, and
| find that I need almost as much time away from the content as
| the commercial breaks (which I'm skipping) would have offered.
|
| It's still nice being able to choose when to take those breaks,
| however.
| nix0n wrote:
| The ideal would be a return of intermissions. A calm reminder
| from the Roku to take a breath, get up, maybe grab some water.
|
| (Movie theaters would make more money this way, also.)
| johnchristopher wrote:
| https://hbr.org/2010/10/defend-your-research-commercials-mak...
|
| > The study: Leif Nelson, in collaboration with Tom Meyvis of
| New York University's Stern School and Jeff Galak of Carnegie
| Mellon's Tepper School, showed subjects three kinds of TV
| shows: Taxi episodes, nature documentaries, and Bollywood
| programs. Some watched the shows with commercials, some
| without. Subjects who watched TV with commercials reported
| greater enjoyment--and were willing to pay more for DVD
| collections of shows by the same director--than subjects who
| watched without interruptions.
|
| Maybe the show is good enough that people want to watch it
| without interruptions but the show is not good enough that
| people who have watched it would pay to rewatch ?
| fartcannon wrote:
| This is probably rude, but maybe people who are happy to sit
| through commercials are more capable of enjoying the
| extremely middling (I'm being generous here) quality of most
| TV?
|
| So people who dislike commercials also dislike the kind of
| shows that are on TV and thus aren't willing to watch more or
| pay for more.
| Terretta wrote:
| Plausible explanations include (a) the study is flawed, (b)
| some TV is so bad the commercials are a relief, or (c) the
| cohort that enjoys TV with ads more are the nascent
| idiocracy.
|
| Did those willing to pay more for the DVDs want the ads on
| the DVD? Or pay more to get without ads?
| petercooper wrote:
| The article says the reason. A pleasurable activity being
| interrupted and restarted is more pleasurable due to the
| resumption. This makes a lot of sense to me, because I
| certainly enjoy a lie in more if I wake up and then go back
| to sleep than if I merely woke up at the later time.
|
| I think it's a variant of the old "nothing feels good if
| nothing feels bad to compare it with" chestnut. You could
| probably replace the commercials with almost anything
| mildly inconvenient.
| darod wrote:
| I think it really depends on the type of interruption.
| Most commercials are not a calm segue to take a break
| from the show. Advertisers purposely increase the volume
| because they know you're going to be stepping away and
| shock you with colors and a barrage of images because
| they know they have microseconds to get some image into
| your subconscious so that you can think of their product
| on your next commute to work.
| cantSpellSober wrote:
| It was actually several studies, most were conducted on ~100
| American college students in 2009. The authors themselves
| weren't totally convinced:
|
| > As has been shown with other positive life experiences,
| people predict and recollect experiences in terms of their
| imperfect expectations and often independent of their actual
| experience. As such, after having watched a show with
| commercial interruptions, consumers may rely on their lay
| beliefs and later recall that experience as aversive, which
| in turn will lead them to expect more aversive reactions to
| commercial interruptions in the future.
|
| -- _Enhancing the Television Viewing Experience through
| Commercial Interruption_
| Mikejames wrote:
| I like these hacks, it's also a mindset that needs to be at the
| forefront of all of this, why not eudaemonia over hedonism? Ive
| been interested recently around eudaemonia, Whilst i'm familiar
| with some of its stoic principles im just barely scratching the
| surface,
|
| this is just my take, but there's noticeable patterns within
| literature in subjects such as minimalism, buddhism and stoicism.
| All pointing towards eudaemonia over hedonism. Sam Harris in his
| Waking Up Book / App covers this hedonic treadmill well too
|
| we don't embrace the impermanence of things
|
| we're programmed in the western world to be constantly chasing
| desire, these hacks build gratitude, which is a trait in
| eudaemonia,
|
| thanks for sharing
| kalimanzaro wrote:
| A hackergroup inspired by Eudaimonism:
|
| https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eudaemons
| scld wrote:
| Because that line about preferring commercials completely rang
| false to me, I followed the link....it's from 2010...
|
| "You still haven't accounted for the popularity of, say,The
| Sopranos and all the subscription-channel programs. Don't we pay
| to get those shows without commercials?
|
| Contemporary shows like The Sopranos might be interrupting
| themselves. Remember, it's not the commercial that increases the
| enjoyment, it's the interruption. These shows often run six or
| more parallel plots and constantly shuffle between them. One plot
| interrupts another."
|
| ...so, that entire concept has, IMO, been disproven by the rise
| of streaming services.
| twobitshifter wrote:
| I don't think I like commercials either, but the enforced
| pacing of the shows with commercials is something that I miss
| when I rewatch shows built for commercials on streaming
| services. You'll come up against a cliffhanger cut and then a
| second later it's resolved because there's no commercial break.
| mewse-hn wrote:
| I recently rewatched the entirety of DS9 on canadian netflix
| and I don't think I'm under any illusion that the bullshit
| cliffhangers they'd put before a commercial break actually
| _added_ to the show
| HEI-Points wrote:
| Why do you miss that? They had to mangle the plot to end on a
| different cliffhanger every 10 minutes.
| user00012-ab wrote:
| I stopped reading the article at that point; figuring the rest
| of the article was also made up by gpt3.
| layer8 wrote:
| TLDR: Turn it into a hedonic rollercoaster.
| thenerdhead wrote:
| I think you can simplify this.
|
| Consider your wants and needs.
|
| Most of us get stuck in our wants. We want to get a promotion, we
| want a nice car, we want a perfect family vacation.
|
| But do we need any of those? Not necessarily.
|
| We get stuck on the treadmill by not knowing the difference of
| our wants and needs. When you realize you don't need the things
| you want, you focus more on the things you need.
|
| Introspection in my opinion helps you find your inner happiness
| in discerning your needs from wants. This is why many ancient
| philosophers believed you can be plenty happy with "enough".
| balfirevic wrote:
| Can you give some examples of needs? The obvious ones are food,
| water, shelter and (for most people) companionship. Any others?
| thenerdhead wrote:
| Maslow's hierarchy of needs to start, but to extend on more
| modern meaning, your psychological needs are quite important
| given most people have their basic needs met. There's a
| popular self-determination theory to explain this further.
|
| i.e. Autonomy, competence, relatedness.
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-determination_theory
|
| One of the better books on this topic is "Transcend: The New
| Science of Self-Actualization" by Scott Barry Kaufman
|
| Here's a piece I wrote based on that book:
|
| Think of your life as a sailboat.
|
| The hull protects us from the waves and keeps us safe.
|
| The sail allows us to explore and adapt to our environment.
|
| However, to get anywhere, we must open our sail to the world.
| Without that, we're stuck in harbor.
|
| As we set out in the world in the many different directions
| we each may take in life. We are all sailing into the unknown
| of the sea together.
|
| So while a ship in harbor is safe, that's not what ships are
| built for.
|
| Even though you're alone in your boat, it's nice to see other
| lights along the way.
| LesZedCB wrote:
| I would prefer not to.
| oneaaronofmany wrote:
| antman wrote:
| Oh yes Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. This article
| kind of mixes different definitions of happiness. There's the
| constitutional reference which comes from ancient greek roman
| philosophy and its origin is Aristotelian
|
| Happiness as "Evdemonia" in Aristotelian scripts (Eudemonia in
| wikipedia) which more accurately translates as having "good
| demons" with you, which can be interpreted as feeling
| content/lucky for what you have.
|
| Happiness as "Joyfulness" which is smily face marketing and
| instant gratification and hedonistic stuff aka buying the new
| iphone each year and getting bored at it and buying afterwards
| the next one because under a microscope the photo of the dark
| side of the moon looks better, when somebody else takes it.
|
| So if one needs to repeat escalate: hedonism usually exploited by
| marketing, if you need to pay probably a facade of happiness and
| unfulfilling. Hedonism is nice to have tho.
|
| If one is feeling lucky for his life and future: happiness aka
| lucky for parameters of ones life that would be deemed important
| 300 years ago and should be important in 300 years, conative with
| a sense of purpose. usually exploited by social and political
| systems (e.g.to be happy you need good health, very expensive if
| politics fights life) happiness is a must have
|
| This article conflates one definition of happiness to the other
| while only discussing affective optimisation of hedonism.
| Comevius wrote:
| We don't buy the next iPhone because it has a better camera,
| but because it makes us feel not being left behind. I routinely
| see people who can't afford one splurging on the newest iPhone
| and AirPods. People even wear fake AirPods.
|
| Radiohead has an entire album about how fake and ultimately
| unfulfilling this is, but the problem is that we live in a
| society, and nobody wants to be an outlier. I may like the
| sound quality of my old earphones, but I still feel a tingle of
| shame when everyone else is sporting AirPods. We are evolved to
| follow norms, those who don't were ostracised from the
| community with dire consequences. This kind of fake happiness
| is thus an advantage.
| antman wrote:
| We don't disagree! I did not say we buy the new thing because
| it has a better camera experience, I said we are buying it
| because we are told others are having a better camera
| experience which we will not witness anyway
| Comevius wrote:
| The most expensive iPhone variant (Pro Max) has the best
| camera, but the bulk of the social value is having a
| contemporary iPhone, which is an iPhone with a notch, X and
| newer. Social value hinges on obvious differences. Cameras
| are used for selfies and art. As long as there are no
| obvious differences a better camera wouldn't trigger our
| fear of being ostracised. A new kind of camera, like
| everyone suddenly using front-facing cameras, or everyone
| suddenly taking 3D selfies with a new camera would. It's a
| two-way street though, if most people think that 3D selfies
| are not it your new camera is now a source of
| embarrassment.
| bigbillheck wrote:
| > Happiness as "Evdemonia" in Aristotelian scripts
|
| Since when would Aristotle have used the latin alphabet?
| akimball wrote:
| Much of Aristotle is evidenced in Latin translations for
| which the Greek is lost.
| benj111 wrote:
| Awareness of the hedonic treadmill meshes quite well with my
| 'frugal' Yorkshire tendencies.
|
| A favourite on HN seems to be coffee, and spending ever more on
| 'good' coffee. I mainly just drink instant coffee, filter coffee
| for the weekend. I still get my 'good' coffee and I appreciate
| it. Same goes for wine and chocolate.
|
| It's also led me away from expensive experiences to
| unique/different experiences.
|
| It's also helpful for informing new purchases. Do I need the
| latest car with all the bells and whistles or can I just stay a
| generation behind and be excited with a new car with electric
| windows or whatever.
| ThePadawan wrote:
| I'm right there with you!
|
| I just recently bought some Ersatz coffee and thought to myself
|
| "Well, what sounds more like a unique experience. Coffee, or a
| blend of roasted chicory, wheat, barley, figs and acorns?"
|
| This stuff is pretty great, and regardless of how much it
| resembles coffee (which it does to a surprising extent), this
| was a really solid purchase.
| benj111 wrote:
| And if you don't like it, you enjoy the real coffee all the
| more when you go back to it!
| vangelis wrote:
| I think there's a triple point of quality-time-cost for
| products like that. Coffee, wine, and chocolate especially are
| subject to diminishing returns. Price is ~usually~ an indicator
| of quality, but there's an element of your time (research) in
| finding the best for the price stuff.
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