[HN Gopher] The 1857 Utah War
___________________________________________________________________
The 1857 Utah War
Author : jdkee
Score : 69 points
Date : 2022-08-08 18:36 UTC (4 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.imetatronink.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.imetatronink.com)
| AnimalMuppet wrote:
| There's a historical marker in Echo Canyon about this. It says,
| essentially, that the army was sent because they thought Utah was
| in rebellion, but Utah was not actually in rebellion, and
| therefore it was not right/legal to send the army, and therefore
| it was legitimate for Utah to resist the army. (It's in Utah, so
| no surprise, the historical marker is a Mormon-view spin on what
| happened.)
|
| So, wait, let me make sure I've got this right. It's legitimate
| for you to fight the US army _because you 're not in rebellion_?
| Um, hello? The moment you start fighting them, _you 're in armed
| rebellion_!
| stevetodd wrote:
| At the time, Utah was located in Mexican territory.
| AnimalMuppet wrote:
| At the time the Mormons _arrived_ (1847), it was officially
| Mexican territory. But the US annexed it in 1848. By the time
| of the Utah War, it was US territory.
|
| (BTW, the canyon by which they entered the Salt Lake Valley
| is Emigration Canyon. Emigration is when you leave,
| immigration is when you arrive. They were consciously leaving
| the US. They weren't really "going to Mexico", though; they
| were intending to form their own independent country. But a
| year later, the US annexed the area.)
| daveslash wrote:
| Re >> _It 's legitimate for you to fight the US army because
| you're not in rebellion?_
|
| That's right. Similar to how if a cop tries to arrest you, but
| you did nothing deserving of arrest, it's legitimate to resist
| arrest. But... uh, then oic.... /s
| potta_coffee wrote:
| This is a Mormon-biased spin on the history.
| kolanos wrote:
| This was left out of the story:
|
| > At the height of the tensions, on September 11, 1857, at
| least 120 California-bound settlers from Arkansas, Missouri and
| other states, including unarmed men, women and children, were
| killed in remote southwestern Utah by a group of local Mormon
| militia. They first claimed that the migrants were killed by
| Natives but it was proven otherwise. This event was later
| called the Mountain Meadows Massacre and the motives behind the
| incident remain unclear.
|
| > The Aiken massacre took place the following month. In October
| 1857, Mormons arrested six Californians traveling through Utah
| and charged them with being spies for the U.S. Army. They were
| released but were later murdered and robbed of their stock and
| $25,000.
|
| > Other incidents of violence have also been linked to the Utah
| War, including a Native American attack on the Mormon mission
| of Fort Lemhi in eastern Oregon Territory, modern-day Idaho.
| They killed two Mormons and wounded several others. The
| historian Brigham Madsen notes, "[T]he responsibility for the
| [Fort Limhi raid] lay mainly with the Bannock." David Bigler
| concludes that the raid was probably caused by members of the
| Utah Expedition who were trying to replenish their stores of
| livestock that had been stolen by Mormon raiders.
|
| [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utah_War#Overview
| tomohawk wrote:
| Extremely. The Mormons headed west after trying to impose a
| theocratic dictatorship in Nauvoo, IL. That didn't go well, and
| their insurrection was put down.
|
| https://www.flatplanet.news/post/mormon-militancy-and-the-co...
|
| This is just the reprise of the earlier effort.
| stcredzero wrote:
| _The Mormons headed west after trying to impose a theocratic
| dictatorship in Nauvoo, IL._
|
| So that's where the original colony ship name came from in,
| _The Expanse_!
| [deleted]
| rayiner wrote:
| I find Mormons to be truly remarkable people. We visited Salt
| Lake City recently, and headed out to the Great Salt Lake.
| Brigham Young wasn't kidding about "land nobody wants!" There's
| almost nothing there, except swarms of flies. (I have no idea
| what they eat in the middle of the desert. As an aside, my wife's
| family apparently went through Utah on the way to Oregon in the
| wagon train days. They noped the f--k out of there.) But these
| Mormons built civilization, a lovely society, in the middle of
| nowhere.
| rtkaratekid wrote:
| It doesn't hurt that the Salt Lake is sadly shrinking
| currently. So it's even worse than it probably was when they
| arrived.
| flanbiscuit wrote:
| The Great Salt Lake is not only shrinking/drying, but there's
| concern over the exposure of dangerous elements that was once
| underwater
|
| > Layers of earth that were formerly underwater have swirled
| into dust clouds laced with calcium, sulphur and arsenic, a
| naturally occurring element linked to cancer and birth
| defects. Exposed lakebed is also contaminated with residue
| from copper and silver mining.
|
| > "If you breathe that dust over an extended period of time,
| like decades or longer, then it can lead to increases in
| different types of cancer, like lung cancer, bladder cancer,
| cardiovascular disease, diabetes and such," Perry, from the
| University of Utah in Salt Lake City, told Reuters on a
| recent morning on Farmington Bay.
|
| > More than just humans are endangered. Underwater reef-like
| structures host a micro-organism that is food for brine
| shrimp, in turn an important food for birds, but the
| structures dry out and turn gray when exposed.
|
| source for the quote above:
| https://www.reuters.com/business/environment/utahs-great-
| sal...
|
| other sources:
| https://www.nytimes.com/2022/06/07/climate/salt-lake-city-
| cl...
| fooey wrote:
| The GSL is also largely responsible for the famous Utah ski
| resorts
|
| Without the lake effect producing all that snow, Utah's ski
| industry is in jeopardy. Without the ski industry, a very
| large portion of Northern Utah's desirability as a place to
| live goes away'
| codazoda wrote:
| I live in Utah just North of SLC and I hear this every once in
| a while. The Wasatch Mountains here, to the East, are also
| pretty amazing. When I'm away I always miss these mountains. If
| you go West you hit the lake, which is low, muddy, stinky, and
| mostly dead and then there are the salt flats beyond. True,
| it's a desert, like much of the US, but the mountains are
| pretty amazing here. The best times to visit are Spring, Fall,
| or Winter. Hit this place in the heat of summer and you'll
| probably wonder why we're here (everything is dry). But it's
| nice in Spring and Fall and lots of people love the Winters.
| rayiner wrote:
| I didn't mean this in a negative way at all. After wading in
| that lake it's just remarkable to me how you can create a
| bustling city out of that environment. Where I come from food
| literally grows everywhere; it jumps from the river into your
| nets.
| matt3210 wrote:
| They're population is one of the few which are increasing. They
| very well could inherit the whole country.
| TheGigaChad wrote:
| balentio wrote:
| Between Buchanan's questionable sexuality, and the Mormons and
| Slavery, it is little wonder the Civil War was not far away.
| ghaff wrote:
| Pretty much every US president from about Fillmore through
| Andrew Johnson (with the notable and obvious exception of
| Abraham Lincoln) is widely regarded as being on the short list
| for worst US president. Admittedly every president in the pre-
| Civil War period was arguably dealt a pretty bad hand but none
| of them seriously tried to change course--and, of course, many
| of them wouldn't have been elected had they tried.
| balentio wrote:
| True, but had Lincoln not changed the course, there would
| have been no office to which to be elected. It makes a pretty
| good point for people, as a popular democracy, not
| necessarily knowing what they need to have a country.
| thenerdhead wrote:
| Wasn't this one of the primary reasons why majority of Mormons
| live south of Salt Lake? I swear Brigham Young ordered a scorched
| earth type thing on SLC and most relocated south.
| nobleach wrote:
| Nah, there are plenty of cities with high LDS populations north
| of SLC. Bountiful, Centerville, Kaysville are like in the
| 80-90% ranges. It's when you get into Layton with Hill Air
| Force Base and Ogden where the population seems to dwindle.
| North of Ogden, you have Brigham City where the population
| again is very high.
| thenerdhead wrote:
| Yeah no doubt about high percentages in northern utah (I'm
| originally from Ogden fwiw). Was mostly commenting that it
| would make sense if Young used this war as a means to migrate
| people to the true valley (Provo/Orem/etc). Those towns are
| easily 90%+ LDS. I vaguely remember learning about this in
| Utah history but it was not characterized in the same light.
| nobleach wrote:
| It could explain places like Provo/Lindon/Orem which are
| most likely 99%.
| billiam wrote:
| The Mormons are fascinating for many reasons and highly skilled
| at building a certain kind of American community. One of the
| things they are best at is spinning their clean scrubbed version
| of history, which as with many groups has as many despicable acts
| as heroic ones. They were indeed quite persecuted on their flight
| across the continent, but that traumatic origin story doesn't
| justify to me some of the less attractive aspects of modern day
| LDS culture. Some interesting reading:
|
| https://www.cnn.com/2019/12/18/us/latter-day-saints-charity-...
|
| https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/wireStory/years-sex-abuse-mo...
|
| https://religionnews.com/2017/06/20/10-reasons-mormons-domin...
|
| All this somewhat strained perfection does have a cost, however.
| Utah leads the nation in rates of anti-depressant use and several
| types of cosmetic surgery. [1]
|
| 1. https://www.healthresearchpolicy.org/top-3-most-requested-
| co...
| R0b0t1 wrote:
| lostapathy wrote:
| The history really is fascinating. There were numerous
| "Mormon Wars" - see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mormonism_a
| nd_violence#List_of...
| metadat wrote:
| The persecution was also rooted in the cult's founder, Joseph
| Smith, having a thing for "seducing" young girls (14 year
| olds and even younger) and attempting to add them to his
| collection of 40 odd wives.
|
| His creepy heavenly-sanctioned pedophilic actions and vibe
| were not well-received by outsiders.
| rsweeney21 wrote:
| The 14 year old you are referring to is my 3rd great
| grandmother, Helen Mar Kimball. Her personal journals and
| her other writings don't agree with your characterization
| of what took place.
|
| I've gotten used to her being defamed, but it still bothers
| me.
|
| If you are interested in what actually transpired: Her
| father, Heber Kimball offered Helen to be sealed to Joseph,
| to create a spiritual link between the Kimball family and
| the Smith family. Helen understood it to be like a
| spiritual betrothal. Nothing much changed about her life
| after the sealing. She still lived at home with her
| parents, she went to school and did chores.
|
| She later married Horace Whitney, my 3rd great grandfather,
| when she was 18 years old and had 11 children with him! She
| was the first of three wives.
|
| Yes, my great grandparents were polygamists. You can call
| that strange if you want, but stop defaming her or
| spreading lies that she was "seduced" or taken advantage of
| by anyone. Use someone else to disparage Joseph Smith.
| metadat wrote:
| How do you feel about Smith's sexual advances towards a
| twelve year old? That incident got him tar and feathered
| by a mob.
|
| The reality is a lot different than the whitewashed
| version we were taught in Primary.
|
| It seems unfair to expect you, as a descendant of one of
| the 40 wives, to be critical of it. Bias is part of being
| human.
| SlickNixon wrote:
| >You can call that strange if you want
|
| To ask the most relevant question--do you call it
| strange?
| anonAndOn wrote:
| Somehow those blessed with being a "prophet" throughout the
| millennia are always instructed to have sex with young
| women/girls because the path to heaven is always in their
| pants. Funny how religion works across the ages.
| ngngngng wrote:
| "[Mormons] are just the worst type of people, from what I've
| experienced and what other people have also experienced."
|
| Can you imagine that being printed about any other minority in
| any serious publication? This article was published days ago
| and I'm still in awe at that line. (From the second link)
| fooey wrote:
| The article is an interesting take on the time period
|
| For one example, I think Porter Rockwell is less considered a
| lawman, and more of a hitman or enforcer. He's suspected of
| having a body count somewhere in the 150 range
|
| edit:
|
| It also completely leaves out the entire Mountain Meadows
| Massacre incident, where Mormons slaughtered around 120 men women
| and children in a wagon train headed to California in September
| of 1857
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mountain_Meadows_Massacre
|
| For a little bonus Utah trivia, the only person actually punished
| for the Massacre is current Senator Mike Lee's great-great-
| grandfather.
| [deleted]
| DavidAdams wrote:
| Porter Rockwell was dubbed the "Destroying Angel," but he was
| definitely a bona fide law man. But you're right that there is
| some evidence that he was also kind of the frontier version of
| a James Bond type secret service or special forces operative
| with a license to kill. And his boss was Brigham Young, who was
| a bit drunk on power. Mountain Meadows is absolutely a disgrace
| and a scandal that should (and does) taint the reputations of
| Young and other Mormon leaders of the time, but it's more
| understandable once you consider the greater context of the
| Utah war. The Utahns were paranoid and on high alert. And
| Brigham Young in particular was concerned about being deposed
| and jailed, so he had an interest in keeping people whipped up.
| swatcoder wrote:
| It's an interesting aspect of studying history that you can
| watch time and peace turn a mass murder into a "disgrace" and
| "scandal" that "taints reputations" but is "understandable in
| context". Those may be fair and uncontroversial words with
| 150 years of remove, but would obviously not have gone over
| well nearer the time of massacre itself.
| codazoda wrote:
| Just in case you were also confused, 1957 is a slight typo. The
| Massacre occurred in 1857.
| fooey wrote:
| whoops, thanks!
| [deleted]
| jbellis wrote:
| This is a very very bad description of why Buchanan sent troops
| to Utah. Utah really was effectively a theocracy and it really
| was refusing to enforce US law, especially wrt polygamy.
|
| Quoting from https://www.dialoguejournal.com/wp-
| content/uploads/sbi/artic...,
|
| Contrary to what many have long assumed, Buchanan's decision to
| intervene in Utah was not based on the despised Judge W. W.
| Drummond's letter of resignation sent from New Orleans in early
| April 1857. That letter "recited nearly every accusation of
| Mormon disloyalty and perfidy that had accumulated during the
| prior ten years" and portrayed Utah as a "territory out of
| control," with Governor Brigham Young as "the prime offender"
| (116). MacKinnon shows that the real catalyst for sending troops
| to Utah was "the substance and rhetoric in at least three other
| batches of material received in Washington during the third week
| of March 1857, weeks before the government was aware of
| Drummond's resignation" (100).
|
| The first decisive documents were the Utah legislature's two
| memorials urging the appointment of only Mormons to territorial
| offices. As Utah delegate John M. Bernhisel reported to Young,
| they were seen as "a declaration of war," breathing "a defiant
| spirit" and "not respectful" (106). The second document was a
| letter sent by Drummond probably before he left California for
| New Orleans and unrelated to his later letter of resignation. It
| detailed the impossibility of enforcing federal laws in Utah. Two
| more letters arrived the same week from Utah Judge John F. Kinney
| to Attorney General Jeremiah S. Black. Kinney gave more examples
| of the subversion of U.S. law in Utah and recommended that
| Buchanan replace Young as governor and establish an army garrison
| in the territory. The second Kinney letter enclosed a message
| from Utah's Surveyor General David H. Burr, which included his
| dramatic assessment that any new governor risked assassination;
| Burr, too, recommended a military force.
| mixmastamyk wrote:
| That was great, would like to read more. Didn't quite understand
| the paragraph about the gold, sounds like they stole it from the
| army but it is unclear.
| tastyfreeze wrote:
| They earned it by selling goods to the fort. Costs a lot of
| money to feed troops.
| gumby wrote:
| I don't know much about this incident but I am dubious about this
| retelling.
|
| There are a lot of florid adjectives, with one side being
| villainous and dastardly, the other side noble (that being said,
| Buchanan _was_ a disgrace).
|
| And the level of privation described here as being inflicted on
| the US is not consistent with the force being able to press on.
| It had to have been exaggerated else they would have been forced
| to retreat.
|
| Finally, the part about being "neutral" in the US a civil war,
| well, that is certainly nothing to be proud of for an ostensibly,
| moral organization, though completely consistent with their
| "children of Ham" doctrine that banned blacks from ordination,
| mixed marriages etc until the end of the 1970s.
| ramesh31 wrote:
| rwcarlsen wrote:
| While I'm sure some of that does occur some places in the
| region, my experience in the Utah/Idaho region is very much the
| opposite. Friendly and very merit oriented work environments.
| metadat wrote:
| "Friendly" != "Friend"
|
| They don't grow the ranks by behaving like jerks in public.
| It's part of the manipulation to persuade you to join up.
| "What unusually nice people, now I'm curious.."
|
| They warm you up before revealing that membership costs 10%
| of all you earn, regardless of how much money and resources
| the church already has. The machine is never content, always
| hungry for more power. If you are in dire straights as a
| member and require assistance, the program is geared to get
| you off their assistance ASAP. Yep, God really needs to keep
| that money.
| InitialLastName wrote:
| I don't have the moral fortitude to defend Mormonism as a
| religion, but based on the model of organized religion as a
| theocratic social insurance program (which it has been
| since, at least, Leviticus), your complaints don't seem
| entirely unreasonable:
|
| > membership costs 10% of all you earn
|
| 10% is less than I currently pay into my state's social
| safety net programs.
|
| > If you are in dire straights as a member and require
| assistance, the program is geared to get you off their
| assistance ASAP.
|
| Shouldn't "returning people to self-sufficiency" be the
| goal of any social safety net? As far as I can tell, when
| you build classes of people whose lives are exclusively and
| indefinitely supported by welfare, things don't go well
| (especially when the people who fund the social welfare
| system get a bit strapped for cash).
| metadat wrote:
| The point is, they've amassed hundreds of billions or
| even trillions of dollars with this stingy pyramid
| scheme. The "social safety net" they offer is a joke.
| Enjoy your knitted blanket and can of baked beans.
|
| The institution is only generous with their marketing
| budget (e.g. BYU, which is also run on a shoestring
| budget) or when they're on the receiving end of
| generosity.
|
| The whole enterprise feeds on the exploitation of human
| souls for free labor.
|
| It'd be nice if they looked outside themselves a little
| and invested their resources into efforts to help human-
| beings. Does "god" really only want them helping
| themselves?
| zdragnar wrote:
| Tithing is common in most christian denominations, and is
| legally mandated (and automated) in several European
| countries via a "church tax" if you're officially
| registered as a member.
|
| Even the 10% number is derived from the Bible (LEV.
| 27:30-34). There's nothing particularly nefarious about the
| Mormons here.
| throwawaylinux wrote:
| Sounds like the federal government except you get a smile
| and a choice, it's cheaper, and it doesn't start so many
| wars. Probably less wasteful too.
| kreeben wrote:
| I wasn't sure why you were being downvoted so I googled "utah
| population" and "utah mormon church member count".
|
| 2.2M divided by 3.2M --> 70%
|
| LDS seems to at least be a dominating factor in that state.
| [deleted]
| fooey wrote:
| Utah legislature is even more lopsided
|
| https://www.sltrib.com/news/politics/2021/01/14/latter-
| day-s...
|
| > Eighty-nine of the 103 lawmakers to be seated Jan. 19 (with
| one current vacancy) are members of The Church of Jesus
| Christ of Latter-day Saints. That's 86%. Utah's population is
| 60% Latter-day Saint, according to research by The Salt Lake
| Tribune. Latter-day Saints also hold 100% of the state's
| congressional seats and statewide political offices, such as
| governor.
| eco wrote:
| The LDS church is known to inflate their membership numbers
| significantly. They count anyone who was ever baptized at age
| 8 regardless of how active they currently are.
|
| > Independent Latter-day Saint demographer Matt Martinich has
| estimated that about 40 percent of Latter-day Saints in the
| United States are "active," and he guesses that roughly half
| of Salt Lake County's members go to church, or roughly 24
| percent of the county's population.
|
| Apostasy among young people has grown extreme in the last
| couple of decades by the church's own admission.
| ngngngng wrote:
| Nothing you stated here supports the claim in your first
| paragraph. Weekly church attendance is not a requirement of
| religious affiliation.
| 52358 wrote:
| "all career advancement and social status is dependent on your
| position with the church" -- this is bullshit, at least in my
| experience.
|
| I lived there 2012-2017, never had an issue with dating/making
| friends/getting promotions at work. There were of course many
| women that would only date mormon men, but the non-mormon
| population was big enough that I didn't think about it much.
|
| I worked for multiple tech companies there, had plenty of non-
| mormon co-workers (and bosses!), and while people did talk
| about mormon things sometimes in social settings, it was never
| pushed on me, nor did anyone make a big deal that I wasn't
| mormon.
|
| I should mention I lived in downtown SLC, which is arguably
| more liberal/secular, and I worked for companies both in and
| outside the city.
| broof wrote:
| I'm an exmormon living in Utah and it is really not that bad...
| Mormon culture here is the dominant culture but not anything
| like the parent comment describes it as. I explicitly left the
| church which is significantly more ostracizing than just not
| being a member, and I still don't feel like an outsider.
| EvanKelly wrote:
| They do have a strong hold, but they absolutely do not hold
| every seat. Salt Lake City and Salt Lake County districts are
| great examples.
| metadat wrote:
| This hot take is a little extreme but not too far from the
| truth.
|
| You'll only understand the depths to which the LDS church
| controls the state and enforces it's social and moral code if
| you've lived in Utah for an extended period as an outsider.
| It's pretty fucking weird.
|
| - Hard liquor only sold by State Liquor stores, where they
| digitally record your ID. Only open a few hours a day, and on
| certain days. Additional state-mandated restrictions on what
| may be stocked (not too high of proof, etc). Fiendishly
| overpriced.
|
| - Beer is all 1/2 the standard alcohol content, and may not be
| purchased on Sundays or after something like 10pm (forgive me,
| I don't recall the exact hours but you get the point). You must
| drive to a neighboring state to get regular alcoholic
| beverages.
|
| - The LDS church wields immense financial power, usually
| wielded with a thin veil indirection to avoid running afoul of
| federal non-profit tax law.
|
| - The LDS church is above the law, because they control it.
| Can't say they hijacked the state, because they founded it.
| There is no other place in the United States controlled by a
| single faction like Utah, which should terrify you. Fortunately
| for the rest of us outsiders, if you leave the morms alone in
| the macro sense, they'll ignore you, seeing you as a non-
| variable / non-threat.
|
| - Church is full of porno fiends and sexual abusers; hypocrites
| at every level (denying human nature breeds curiosity and
| extremist effects on the population). It's really sad for all
| the victims, who are often the perpetrators' own family
| members.
|
| - Lots of closet homosexuality. Also sad. The church has also
| squashed gay rights in the state and attempted to also suppress
| same-sex rights at th e federal level.
|
| It's worth noting that over time as more non-morms move to Salt
| Lake City, some of the cultural norms and somewhat diluted just
| by sheer numbers of outsiders.
|
| Once you get away from that lone big city, it's something like
| 80-90% "active" mormons. This is the phenomenon granting the
| church indirect controls over the vast majority of the politics
| and state at large.
|
| The mormons and church are clever, going to great lengths to
| ensure their activities are technically legal.
|
| Lots of nice individual people, but a scary powerful
| organization. It's a cult.
|
| https://dailyutahchronicle.com/2022/06/20/mendenhall-lds-chu...
|
| https://www.sltrib.com/news/2021/08/10/lds-church-moves-quas...
| throwaway0a5e wrote:
| >- The LDS church is above the law, because they control it.
| Can't say they hijacked the state, because they founded it.
| There is no other place in the United States controlled by a
| single faction like Utah, which should terrify you.
|
| Um? What?
|
| There's like a dozen states that are just as bad if not
| worse. The only difference is that the "faction" just happens
| to be the state branch of one of the two big national
| political parties instead of a religion.
|
| Heck, other than the whole anti-gay thing your description of
| Utah sounds just like my tiny northeast state. Actually now
| that I think about it our liquor laws are worse and I can't
| even buy fireworks despite the fact that this place is
| anything but arid...
| [deleted]
| EvanKelly wrote:
| Beer info is out of date as well. Beer up to 5% can be sold
| at grocery stores with no day/time restrictions - which
| covers quite a lot of beer. High gravity beer (>5%) can be
| purchased at liquor stores or at the brewery (no time/day
| restrictions on brewery sales).
|
| It's onerous sometimes, and often weird, but it's no more
| difficult to purchase liquor in Utah than in a state like
| Virginia.
| [deleted]
| wang_li wrote:
| >Hard liquor only sold by State Liquor stores, where they
| digitally record your ID.
|
| Similar to about 15 other states.
|
| >Only open a few hours a day, and on certain days.
|
| 11 AM - 10 PM Monday thru Saturday. If you can't work with
| those hours you have a different problem than the lack of
| opportunity to buy alcohol.
|
| >Additional state-mandated restrictions on what may be
| stocked (not too high of proof, etc). Fiendishly overpriced.
|
| You can buy Everclear which is 190 proof. There is a limit
| but I think it has more to do with physics and chemistry than
| puritanism. If you want something they don't stock you can
| have them order it for you.
| metadat wrote:
| Thanks, maybe my info is out of date, haven't been living
| in Utah recently. This is how it used to be.
| broof wrote:
| I'm an exmormon in suburban Utah and it is definitely nowhere
| near 80-90% active Mormon. Maybe 50-60%, which is still
| really high for a single demographic, but also not too
| dissimilar in group think qualities of other populations
| metadat wrote:
| Sure, it's hard to define whay "active" even means. If you
| go by the churches numbers, at least 60% of the entire
| state is composed of "active" members.
| remarkEon wrote:
| Is this really "forgotten"? Forgotten by whom?
|
| I thought this was part of LDS mythology surrounding the
| settlement of the Utah territory and was fairly well known. I
| remember reading about the war in college, and it is definitely
| part of any history of Buchanan's presidency.
| dang wrote:
| We've taken that word out of the title now.
|
| Please let's discuss more interesting things than linkbait
| effects.
| [deleted]
| bitbuilder wrote:
| I'm 47 years old, decently educated, and can honestly say I'd
| never heard of this war and thought this was a great read.
|
| Granted, it's quite possible I was taught about this in some
| very dry history class in high school while I was barely paying
| attention to the teacher. But I think it's safe to say this
| isn't a war that comes up often in popular discourse of US
| history.
| daveslash wrote:
| I agree with you. Though, I'd also ask, are you in the Utah
| region or outside? It's easy for us to lose sight of just how
| huge the U.S. is, and what might be "common history" in one
| area is obscure bar-trivia somewhere else. We've all heard of
| the Revolutionary War, the Civil War, and WWII and mostly
| know the broad strokes. I doubt the average person on the
| street could give you much info on The War of 1812, the
| Mexican American War, The First Barbary War, The _Second_
| Barbary War. Regarding local history, I grew up in Maine, so
| to me the Aroostook War might seem like common history, , and
| to my Filipina wife, the Philippine-American War might seem
| less than forgotten. I could forgive anyone on the street for
| knowing little or nothing about all these. Even the Korean
| War 's nickname is "The Forgotten War".
| tcmart14 wrote:
| Regional history, people don't understand how much there
| is. I never heard about the one bomb dropping on the
| continental 48 during World War 2 until I moved to Oregon,
| because where that happened it probably 2-3 hours away from
| me (bomb on a balloon). Grew up in the rural south. Like
| wise, my Wife who grew up in Oregon has never heard of
| Blair Mountain and the struggle between the the Union and
| the Mining company. Or she only knows of the Hatfields and
| McCoys from pop culture reference but doesn't actually know
| any of the story behind it. The US has a surprising large
| amount of this.
| [deleted]
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