[HN Gopher] Cramming 'Papers, Please' onto Phones
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Cramming 'Papers, Please' onto Phones
Author : nycpig
Score : 270 points
Date : 2022-08-06 20:43 UTC (2 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (dukope.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (dukope.com)
| chairhairair wrote:
| The productivity of solo indie game devs is just really
| impressive.
|
| While I'm aware of the "go fast alone, go far together" quote,
| I'm depressed by how inefficient app/ui development is at big
| tech companies compared to game studios, especially short staffed
| indies.
|
| Really makes me wonder about the "engineering excellence" that
| tech leads and "architects" pride themselves in when games are
| developed much more quickly and are - to my eye - much more
| stable and performant.
| chairhairair wrote:
| Expanding on this in a reply to my own comment.
|
| Grinding Gear Games, as an example, is a NZ based game studio
| that releases a new expansion to their famous RPG - Path of
| Exile - every three months.
|
| The game is not a simple program by any stretch - which might
| be a fair criticism for Papers Please by comparison since it is
| purely client-side and all possible states of the game can be
| fairly easily enumerated.
|
| Path of Exile is a persistent cross-platform 3D online
| multiplayer game that has daunting requirements for
| consistency, latency, and graphical performance.
|
| Despite that, each three month release cycle introduces more
| new UI elements and features than I think the entirety of
| Google apps release in the same timeframe. And that's not
| because Google isn't trying to build new things - they are and
| I've written UI for several of those projects.
|
| Does anyone else feel a real sense of deflation when it comes
| to app/web development velocity compared to games?
| bestinterest wrote:
| I have the exact same feelings.
|
| Is immediate mode GUI's just that much better? Instead of a
| complex React/Redux style setup, how much easier would state
| management be if we had a render loop like game dev? Does
| that even make sense?
|
| I am very envious at the pure programming skills of so many
| game developers. UI's in indie games are just a side thing in
| the deep complexity of a game and they end up looking
| incredible compared to the level of effort required for year
| long web app projects.
| Jare wrote:
| A lot of it is about tradeoffs (long term vs one-off projects,
| business stakeholders, and a long etc), but there's also
| significant selection bias. Most "indie" projects die before
| having much of a playable thing, and many successful solo indie
| projects can take many long and grueling years (e.g. Stardew
| Valley).
|
| Engineering in most organisations will place stability and
| predictability very high among priorities, and pay a hefty
| price for it (sometimes, messing up along the way and getting
| neither benefit). An individually brilliant engineer can be a
| great asset if properly managed, but you need the majority of
| people to be less of an outlier.
| chairhairair wrote:
| I think we can ignore the selection bias because I'm not
| aware of any "AAA app" (for lack of a better term) that moves
| as quickly and productively as the best game studios do (see
| my comment about Grinding Gear Games below). Additionally,
| these apps employ engineers that are supposedly amongst the
| best money can buy. At least, if there is some better way to
| hire top engineers it should be fairly obvious in AAA app
| output of some orgs with better hiring processes - but I'm
| not aware of any such apps or orgs.
|
| As for stability and predictability, I'm not confident that
| AAA apps are hugely (or maybe even significantly) more stable
| or predictable than the best games. Maybe my tolerance for
| bugs is higher in games than apps, but I do seem to tolerate
| quite a lot of jank and slowness from apps, so I'm not sure.
| ElevenLathe wrote:
| I've had my eyes opened recently onto the world of modern game
| editors (Unity, Unreal, Godot, etc.) by watching gamedev
| streams. The productivity of these environments, and their
| associated asset stores, is amazing. You can't help but think
| that other domains would also be well-served by a fully-
| integrated experience like this. Surely the universe of
| "webapps" or "unix-y network services" is at least as
| constrained as "3D games" is (possibly more?).
|
| I would certainly be interested in a "Unity for line-of-
| business apps." I guess this was VB6 lol.
| ink404 wrote:
| do you have any streams that you'd recommend?
| ElevenLathe wrote:
| I typically bounce around the twitch category before
| settling on one. These tend to be smaller streamers who
| don't have regular hours. One that I try not to miss is
| Jonathan Blow, though his current project is in a custom
| engine (written in new language on a custom compiler, even)
| so it's not immediately relevant to learning about modern
| game editors.
| keyle wrote:
| The blog post is really top tier. Consider how much time some
| engineers spend considering details when they're just being
| contracted to do a job (I've work with lots) and how this indie
| game project is being explained, nitpicked, loved and cherished.
|
| The blog post alone makes you want to purchase whatever this
| person has been working on based on how much passion is oozing
| off the explanation of how it's made.
|
| Side note... A lot of YouTubers also work like this: pushing the
| craftsmanship to beyond expectation to almost cause an emotional
| reaction.
|
| In this case though, it's genuine engineering with high
| standards.
| lemming wrote:
| IMO you should absolutely buy what he produces, partly as you
| say to support a genuine craftsman, but also because
| (unsurprisingly) the games he produces are really good. I also
| think of my purchases as a donation to keep his blog posts
| coming.
| kergonath wrote:
| > The blog post alone makes you want to purchase whatever this
| person has been working on based on how much passion is oozing
| off the explanation of how it's made.
|
| _Papers Please_ is nice, but _Return of the Obra Dinn_ is a
| masterpiece. Honestly. A very cool concept with some impressive
| attention to detail. Pixel-perfect 1-bit dithered graphics,
| amazing soundtrack, and a nice story. I don't have a link here
| but there was a forum thread somewhere where he discussed his
| progress as he was making the game. It's a bit long but we'll
| worth a read as well.
| diebeforei485 wrote:
| I own the iPad version. Anyone know if I need to pay again for
| the iPhone version?
| snoopy_telex wrote:
| https://www.theverge.com/2022/7/25/23277003/papers-please-mo...
|
| > He added that the game would be available as an update to the
| 2014 iPad app
| yojo wrote:
| I played through Papers, Please back when it came out on desktop,
| and at the time I remember wondering: "why is this fun?" I
| enjoyed it tremendously, but on the surface that didn't make any
| sense. Who wants to play an immigration officer sim? Getting this
| peek behind the curtain helped me understand all the little
| decisions that add up to an unexpectedly fun experience.
|
| The level of thought given to tiny UI interactions here is
| wonderful. Details like being able to swipe around to "play" with
| the dangling pull chain. Any other dev would just make it a
| static image and call it a day. But these little bits of magic
| working together transform one of the most boring possible topics
| into a real gem of a game. This post should be required reading
| for interaction designers.
| unstatusthequo wrote:
| For those annoyed with the Apple Store not finding it under
| "papers please" and forcing you to use the comma instead of being
| sensical, here is the link: https://apps.apple.com/us/app/papers-
| please/id935216956
|
| I scrolled several screens finding only knock offs without the
| comma. The App Store and Apple Music search experience is not
| great.
|
| Anyway, happily bought this game again in this new format! Well
| done, sir!
| bbx wrote:
| I knew about this game at launch but only bought it last year to
| play on a Windows tablet. Always thought I'd love the game... And
| I did.
|
| My only regret was that I couldn't play it more often, on the go,
| on my phone. I understood why, considering the intricate gameplay
| and the precise interface required, it wasn't possible.
|
| And then suddenly... this. Instant buy.
| krallja wrote:
| This is exactly how I would have hoped to find out "Papers,
| Please!" is out for mobile phones.
| game-of-throws wrote:
| > I created Papers, Please in 2013 specifically for desktop
| computers with mouse control.
|
| This is interesting to read. When I first played it I was dying
| for touch controls. It seemed like such a natural fit for the
| gameplay of sliding papers around.
| lupire wrote:
| ridiculous_fish wrote:
| Just wanted to say thank you for Papers, Please! I loved playing
| it on my iPad and it's awesome to have it available for my phone
| now too - a free update no less.
| radiojasper wrote:
| This is one of the coolest things I've read in a while. I love
| the thought process behind each element of the game and it's all
| executed very well. As a fan of the desktop game, I can't wait to
| try this out on mobile.
| at_ wrote:
| Find his work endlessly inspiring not just in terms of how good
| it is, but also in the way it has proved there's an audience
| hungry for the experimental and conceptually quite challenging
| games he makes, too -- carved a path and set the bar for
| artistically inclined game-devs (and game-dev inclined artists)
| egypturnash wrote:
| Man it is gonna be so nice when the average young adult has a
| device in their pocket that folds out to the size of a paperback,
| or even a magazine, and we can start making popular culture that
| fits that size again instead of everything having to make sense
| through the tiny window of a phone.
| soylentgraham wrote:
| Phones could be fine if 95% of the screen wasn't covered in
| popups, adverts, mailing list & cookie prompts.
| kevin_thibedeau wrote:
| Firefox mobile + UBO brings the future to you today.
| blooalien wrote:
| > From the article: "Now, here, in 2022, desktop computers no
| longer exist and all computing is done via handheld mobile
| telephone."
|
| They're _kidding,_ right? Nobody in their right mind actually
| believes that, do they?
| DizzyDoo wrote:
| Of course, he just called it a "handheld mobile telephone",
| that's tongue-in-cheek.
| kencausey wrote:
| It's hyperbolic truth, acknowledging that the future is now.
| fragmede wrote:
| _All_ is hyperbole, since the ergonomics on a laptop are
| terrible, and there will always be a segment for which that
| 's a showstopper, but it's already true for certain segments
| of the population. Especially among the less privileged where
| there may not even _be_ a desktop computer available or only
| at school /library, mobile phones are increasingly where work
| is done. Writing essays and emails, and filling out important
| forms, may not be the most ergonomic, but it beats not being
| able to.
|
| Look at devices with foldable screens and external keyboards
| like the Asus Zenbook 17. Without getting lost in arguing
| semantics of if an iPad (mini/pro/regular) sized tablet
| counts as a mobile telephone, it's clearly not a desktop, and
| it's easy enough to imagine that desktop computers will go
| the way of the mainframe.
| lotu wrote:
| I was stunned when I went to a writing circle and saw
| college students using their phones.
| a9h74j wrote:
| I took that as either [kidding] overstatement (to bypass
| discussion of _why_ ) or short for _desktop computers no
| longer exist [for my market purposes]_.
|
| To your general question, I've heard a professor lament a
| student stating that _all CAD applications should work on
| phones._
| aliqot wrote:
| I'm noticing a lot of the younger crowd don't seem as glued to
| the phone as their parents. Materialists will always be
| materialists, but as an adherent to Ordnung, I don't own/need a
| phone, so it sticks out and it's obvious to me that the normal
| garden variety youth these days are not as absorbed as the
| first generation to this little thing known to 'create fire'
| because it is now commonplace. A computer in your pocket has 0
| novelty or wow-factor to this generation, as it should. Nobody
| fawns over a butane-lighter or debit card, they're commonplace
| despite being relatively new.
|
| This isn't just in my community, it's noticeable enough in my
| travels that it seems to be a trend. I assume it is because of
| more short-format digestible content, along with the shift of
| social being one-to-one and one-to-many, to being many-to-many,
| in the sense that you're not necessarily seeking out those you
| had a direct relationship with, you're seeking out elements and
| segments of a topical zeitgeist, whether that be tech videos,
| memes, cat compilations etc.
|
| I also have another hypothesis- when phones that provided a
| rich experience first debuted, it was the nerds and city folk
| who got it first. iPhone then brought this mobile-first-
| lifestyle to the stylemakers and artists and those whose inner
| monologue is narrated by Justin Long, folks who'd likely have
| bought anything apple anyway. From there, smartphones and rich
| experiences were disseminated into the lesser elements of the
| greater public who either are receptive to tastemaker's
| influences or have limited option to refute the convenience of
| popularity; popular hardware is cheap, ubiquitous and
| accessible, some might say in some regards modern smart phones
| are disposable.
|
| What I'm getting at is this, this stuff is no longer a mystery
| to this generation. We are now 2 or 3 generations removed from
| this type of pocket-computer being anything wow-inducing. I
| think of it sometimes like when I was a youngster, the class of
| people who traveled via air vs everyone else at ground level.
| Air travel had a mystique and prestige, this person must be
| doing something to be enjoying a cigarette and being served a
| glass of wine however many feet in the air, direct to
| destination. The same way I might not be in admiration of my
| neighbors boots for having a good welt, because a good welt is
| a given, I assume the youngster of today are no longer enamored
| by the novelty of a mobile phone or pocket-computer. As such,
| it is no longer a status symbol for most. So what the new
| iPhone came out and you got one, that's only a valid status
| symbol for maybe a few weeks, for over 1,000 USD invested in
| some models.
|
| Youth of today, I don't see them going for a pocket atlas or
| any such form factor, I see them going for augmented spectacles
| or lenses. Everything indicates that a new 'moores law' is
| taking effect around energy storage and thermodynamics - we are
| no longer optimizing per-core clock speed, we are optimizing
| core count and the amount of energy that can be stored to later
| be turned into CPU cycles rather than heat. As soon as the
| battery technology will allow it, you will see lenses, whether
| they be spectacles or contacts, that will take in and
| assimilate your surroundings, your focus, and the imperceptible
| changes to your heart rate, retinal dilation, and ocular
| pressure responses to commercial items. It's not far fetched,
| we already know of this research being done. Despite the
| cumbersome experience of VR, we are seeing a point where it is
| no longer 3D TV or bluray level tech, it's sub-standard as a
| whole but more and more people are buying it because it shows
| promise.
|
| I see in the future that our interface devices, whether they be
| communicators like phones, or additive interfaces like AR
| spectacles that can dole out retail info in response to a brief
| biomarker-spike like pupil dilation when glancing at a new pair
| of shoes. These devices will be funded by corporations much the
| same way tech learning materials, operating systems, and
| software is today. It makes most sense that before wider
| adoption, they'd first be available to those with the most
| capacity for realizing an ad-prompt via converting to a
| purchase, so think of like snapchat goggles release, but at
| your local best buy.
|
| pocket-held mobile phones are the least optimal form factor for
| every purpose or task it can accommodate other than "fits in
| pocket". Mark my words, as soon as it can be bonded to a
| wearable lens, it will be, and the corporations will subsidize
| it heavily. You think adtech is bad now, just wait.
| macintux wrote:
| Had to skim for a bit to figure out what was going on, because I
| distinctly remember playing on my iPad many years ago. Turns out
| it was iPad only, this was the first time it was redesigned to
| fit on the phone screen. The author didn't want to force users
| into landscape mode, which I completely understand: playing games
| in landscape feels alien on my iPhone.
|
| Interesting look at the process of making the UI work well.
| tosh wrote:
| Fantastic write-up. Thanks for sharing this!
| simonbarker87 wrote:
| I'm always amazed at how many programming languages there are.
| I'd never heard of Haxe, I don't think it would have crossed my
| mind to look for something like it but here it is powering a
| highly successful game with, from what I can tell, a vibrant eco
| system around the language as well.
|
| Perhaps I'm not curious enough to go exploring for these
| languages. I've used a few smaller ones in my years (usually
| because of an external forcing factor - like Squirrel running on
| ElecticImp devices) but I tend to stick to the big names we all
| know
| MBCook wrote:
| I've only ever heard of it in one context. About seven years
| ago TiVo announced that they were going to start using it to
| program their devices when they made the new (terrible)
| interface.
|
| I don't think I've heard about it since then.
| egypturnash wrote:
| Haxe is very much a games language, it started out (IIRC) as
| an ActionScript compiler by a game studio (Motion Twin, now
| most famous for Dead Cells) who was sick of trying to program
| in the shitty bare-minimum editor built into Flash, and
| evolved into its own language that compiled to the Flash
| plug-in's VM. Motion Twin released it and its support tools
| as open source, and a lot of other Flash game devs picked it
| up.
| dhosek wrote:
| I came of age in an era in which it was often important _which_
| version of a language you were programming in. Not all C code
| could compile with all C compilers (which was part of the
| motivation behind the C preprocessor), likewise with Pascal,
| BASIC, FORTRAN, etc. IBM had two different Pascal compilers for
| VM /CMS named, confusingly, VS/Pascal and Pascal/VS which were
| almost but not quite identical in functionality and features.
| On timesharing systems, you might discover all manner of legacy
| languages lurking on the (dishwasher-sized) hard drives. I
| checked out a book on SNOBOL from the library to understand
| what was happening in some SPITBOL code that I found on UIC's
| mainframe that was part of the source for a C compiler. Most
| personal computers came with some version of a Microsoft BASIC
| in ROM, but there were differences from one platform to the
| next so you couldn't necessarily just type in a program written
| in AppleSoft BASIC and run it in QBASIC under DOS. The fact
| that in 2022 JVM languages run identically anywhere and that
| Rust is (almost) platform-agnostic is, to be honest, kind of
| miraculous.
| tokinonagare wrote:
| > I'd never heard of Haxe
|
| Well it was born in France in a web game company (some of their
| games were pretty famous domestically) as an internal language,
| and the main selling point at first was the multiple
| compilation targets (PHP, JS) which included Flash. It wasn't
| something developed in English in the open at first like a lot
| of new languages are nowadays, so obviously it took some time
| to get some international exposure.
| PoignardAzur wrote:
| Wait, you mean Motion Twin?
| govg wrote:
| Yes, who are famous in large part for Dead Cells. One of
| the developers even went on to lead Shiro Games, which has
| done stuff like Dune and Northgard.
| stijnsanders wrote:
| ( https://dukope.com/devlogs/ doesn't appear to have a feed URL?
| )
| rossvor wrote:
| If you see a devlog post from Lucas Pope you know it's going to
| be a goldmine. No matter the topic. Dude has a real knack in
| writing these, clearly describing the problem and the thought
| process on possible solution. And making it all very interesting
| so you yourself start thinking how would you address it or what
| other cool thing could be built instead.
|
| Here's some of his other huge devlogs on TIGSOURCE:
|
| 1. Papers, Please.
| https://forums.tigsource.com/index.php?topic=29750.0
|
| 2. Return of the Obra Dinn.
| https://forums.tigsource.com/index.php?topic=40832.0
| collegeburner wrote:
| Arstechnica did a war stories with him on Return of the Obra
| Dinn, combining one of my fave video series with one of my fave
| gamedevs. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OMi6xgdSbMA
| scyzoryk_xyz wrote:
| Yes - I remember even coming across those before Papers became
| a bigger thing. So thorough
| aerovistae wrote:
| Yes, the guy is honestly some type of genius. To be this
| talented of a programmer, and across multiple platforms,
| languages, and toolsets just dazzles me. It's hard enough to
| just be competent with one platform. I can't imagine.
|
| And on top of that he composes the music and makes the art and
| literally everything else.
|
| I honestly just don't understand how a person can get that good
| at that many things.
| hbn wrote:
| He's also a fantastic game designer. I played through Return
| of the Obra Dinn last year and it was one of the coolest game
| experiences I've had. It really doesn't hold your hand, it's
| just using logic and clues to piece together a mystery and
| put names to faces. Keep a notepad handy and it's a real fun
| time!
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(page generated 2022-08-06 23:00 UTC)